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Send Offenders to Estonia.
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By *atEvolution OP Couple 16 weeks ago
Open Tonight Fri 27 CLOSED Saturday 28 |
Oooooop! Forgot the link:
https://news.sky.com/story/offenders-could-serve-sentence-in-estonian-prisons-to-ease-overcrowding-13210297
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Offenders could serve sentence in Estonian prisons to ease overcrowding
The Ministry of Justice says it is 'considering all viable options' to increase the number of places on the prison estate.
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By *otMe66Man 16 weeks ago
Terra Firma |
We should have stopped being so liberal towards the sentencing of offenders, the arrest of offenders and we should be supporting our criminal justice system, this might have had a positive influence on people not wanting to commit crime in the first place.
When we want to get tough on crime, it can be done as demonstrated recently, follow a progressives view of law and order and the world becomes dangerous it would seem |
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It's a non-starter and waste of time. Like Rwanda, we'll spend £millions on feasibility then get the idea quashed by HR lawyers. Now the Germans are going to adopt the Rwanda scheme at our expense. |
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"let's just carry on with the status quo, after all nobody wants to pay enough tax to properly fund the criminal justice system do they?"
Plenty of money, being wasted:
£70bn over budget hs2
£219m a year for 5000 empty hotel rooms for boat arrivals
£25m a year spent maintaining 10,000 long term empty MOD homes while spending £2bn a year on hotels for homeless
2.3 million right to buy sales sold at one time discounts to tenants, now £15.6bn annually in housing benefit paid to private landlords
£53 million spent by Johnson on London garden bridge feasibility study.
£40bn annual tax loss from Brexit
£80m spent by Labour on nhs PFI that delivered £13m investment
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"It's a non-starter and waste of time. Like Rwanda, we'll spend £millions on feasibility then get the idea quashed by HR lawyers. Now the Germans are going to adopt the Rwanda scheme at our expense."
£800m written off
Reported 1000 staff employed on the scheme |
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"let's just carry on with the status quo, after all nobody wants to pay enough tax to properly fund the criminal justice system do they?
Plenty of money, being wasted:
£70bn over budget hs2
£219m a year for 5000 empty hotel rooms for boat arrivals
£25m a year spent maintaining 10,000 long term empty MOD homes while spending £2bn a year on hotels for homeless
2.3 million right to buy sales sold at one time discounts to tenants, now £15.6bn annually in housing benefit paid to private landlords
£53 million spent by Johnson on London garden bridge feasibility study.
£40bn annual tax loss from Brexit
£80m spent by Labour on nhs PFI that delivered £13m investment
"
i disagree with next years projections that you've posted there ... you look like you've plucked those figures from some long distant history book .... what is your properly costed solution going forward please? |
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How dare anyone suggest sending them elsewhere! Certainly not unsafe Rwanda that sooo dangerous Germany is looking to utilise the UK funded facilities. So presumably Estonia is going to be just as unacceptable...oh hang on, some old fossil has been saying on sky news that'll not be received well by any potential prisoners because of the distance between them and their loved ones!!!! FFS this really is becoming a case of the tail wagging the dog. |
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Like with illegal immigration, a harsh deterrent is needed. We need to overhaul the prison system. Prison itself should be a deterrent NOT just removal of freedom. Same with community service.
Think of the historical chain gangs - I'm not on about that returning but the physical action of preparing the land for railways. Bring that upto date and we have groundwork prep for infrastructure. That's just off the top of my head. Hard Labour should put some people off of turning to crime  |
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"Like with illegal immigration, a harsh deterrent is needed. We need to overhaul the prison system. Prison itself should be a deterrent NOT just removal of freedom. Same with community service.
Think of the historical chain gangs - I'm not on about that returning but the physical action of preparing the land for railways. Bring that upto date and we have groundwork prep for infrastructure. That's just off the top of my head. Hard Labour should put some people off of turning to crime "
There is no evidence, and never has been, linking worsening punishment to reduction in crime. The evidence suggests that the opposite correlation is true.
We know what reduces crime. The right systematically block it because it involves spending public money on people they don't like. |
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By *irldnCouple 15 weeks ago
Brighton |
"Like with illegal immigration, a harsh deterrent is needed. We need to overhaul the prison system. Prison itself should be a deterrent NOT just removal of freedom. Same with community service.
Think of the historical chain gangs - I'm not on about that returning but the physical action of preparing the land for railways. Bring that upto date and we have groundwork prep for infrastructure. That's just off the top of my head. Hard Labour should put some people off of turning to crime
There is no evidence, and never has been, linking worsening punishment to reduction in crime. The evidence suggests that the opposite correlation is true.
We know what reduces crime. The right systematically block it because it involves spending public money on people they don't like."
“We know what reduces crime.”
What? |
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"Like with illegal immigration, a harsh deterrent is needed. We need to overhaul the prison system. Prison itself should be a deterrent NOT just removal of freedom. Same with community service.
Think of the historical chain gangs - I'm not on about that returning but the physical action of preparing the land for railways. Bring that upto date and we have groundwork prep for infrastructure. That's just off the top of my head. Hard Labour should put some people off of turning to crime
There is no evidence, and never has been, linking worsening punishment to reduction in crime. The evidence suggests that the opposite correlation is true.
We know what reduces crime. The right systematically block it because it involves spending public money on people they don't like.
“We know what reduces crime.”
What?"
Broadly, by making law-abiding life a more appealing prospect to would-be criminals. It's obviously an infinitely more difficult and complex process than that makes it sound, but the principle being that crime is an anti-social act, so if you see yourself as outside society and not benefiting from society, you will be more likely to harm it.
At base level it's stuff like making sure every kid is fed and educated and given opportunities to achieve meaningful things without making them feel like those things are handouts they should be grateful for. |
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By *lan157Man 15 weeks ago
a village near Haywards Heath in East Sussex |
"Like with illegal immigration, a harsh deterrent is needed. We need to overhaul the prison system. Prison itself should be a deterrent NOT just removal of freedom. Same with community service.
Think of the historical chain gangs - I'm not on about that returning but the physical action of preparing the land for railways. Bring that upto date and we have groundwork prep for infrastructure. That's just off the top of my head. Hard Labour should put some people off of turning to crime
There is no evidence, and never has been, linking worsening punishment to reduction in crime. The evidence suggests that the opposite correlation is true.
We know what reduces crime. The right systematically block it because it involves spending public money on people they don't like.
“We know what reduces crime.”
What?
Broadly, by making law-abiding life a more appealing prospect to would-be criminals. It's obviously an infinitely more difficult and complex process than that makes it sound, but the principle being that crime is an anti-social act, so if you see yourself as outside society and not benefiting from society, you will be more likely to harm it.
At base level it's stuff like making sure every kid is fed and educated and given opportunities to achieve meaningful things without making them feel like those things are handouts they should be grateful for."
You are dreaming of a utopian world. Criminals need to liberty taken away to punish and keep them off the streets . It will always be the case . |
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You are dreaming of a utopian world. Criminals need to liberty taken away to punish and keep them off the streets . It will always be the case ."
No I'm not. I'm talking about ordinary government policies that have been implemented with tremendous success certainly overseas and in some cases here, but which are systematically targeted for budget cuts every time free-market capitalism fucks up and requires the taxpayer to bail out the bankers. Progressive perhaps but there's nothing utopian about it.
You say "criminals" like that's just one thing. There's a very strong argument that it's a minority of criminals who actually need to be separated from the general public, and an extremely strong argument that depriving people of their freedom and segregating them with other, often worse offenders for extended periods further desocialises them, compounding the problem.
It will certainly remain the case that incarceration is thought of as the only way to fix crime for as long as people see punishment as the priority without any consideration for whether it really solves any problem at all. |
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"Like with illegal immigration, a harsh deterrent is needed. We need to overhaul the prison system. Prison itself should be a deterrent NOT just removal of freedom. Same with community service.
Think of the historical chain gangs - I'm not on about that returning but the physical action of preparing the land for railways. Bring that upto date and we have groundwork prep for infrastructure. That's just off the top of my head. Hard Labour should put some people off of turning to crime
There is no evidence, and never has been, linking worsening punishment to reduction in crime. The evidence suggests that the opposite correlation is true.
We know what reduces crime. The right systematically block it because it involves spending public money on people they don't like."
It was more linked to training people in construction but chain gangs are a nifty soundbite. I never actually proposed the hard labour for type of crime as that in itself is complex. |
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"
You are dreaming of a utopian world. Criminals need to liberty taken away to punish and keep them off the streets . It will always be the case .
No I'm not. I'm talking about ordinary government policies that have been implemented with tremendous success certainly overseas and in some cases here, but which are systematically targeted for budget cuts every time free-market capitalism fucks up and requires the taxpayer to bail out the bankers. Progressive perhaps but there's nothing utopian about it.
You say "criminals" like that's just one thing. There's a very strong argument that it's a minority of criminals who actually need to be separated from the general public, and an extremely strong argument that depriving people of their freedom and segregating them with other, often worse offenders for extended periods further desocialises them, compounding the problem.
It will certainly remain the case that incarceration is thought of as the only way to fix crime for as long as people see punishment as the priority without any consideration for whether it really solves any problem at all."
Desocialises and institutionalises. |
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It was more linked to training people in construction but chain gangs are a nifty soundbite. I never actually proposed the hard labour for type of crime as that in itself is complex."
There is a really important difference between training convicts and properly employing them while incarcerated, and using them for free labour.
In terms of rehabilitation efforts, the former shows the convict they have the potential to be a productive and valued member of society, that their lives can progress towards something better, and crucially that they have something to aim for when released; the latter tells the convict that society considers them little more than an exploitable commodity.
In terms of economics, while it CAN be profitable to train and employ convicts, again it's important that it not be the priority, and the real benefit be seen as a long-term social one. Using convicts for free labour obviously is profitable, but usually only in the model that a private entity will enjoy the returns while the taxpayer foots more or less the same, incredibly expensive bill. This is extremely common in America.
The unfortunate reality is there is a very strong correlation between academic failure, illiteracy, innumeracy and so on, and criminality. It is very difficult to turn people who lack even the basic skills required to do any job at any level into economically productive people. Again this is why social and educational investment as a preventative is so important. People with a solid educational background and the potential to develop valuable professional skills tend much, much less towards criminality. |
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Anybody familiar with the criminal justice system will tell you that the majority of prisoners, especially repeat offenders, have some kind of addiction, be it drugs,
or alcohol. The pattern of re-offending is depressingly familiar, and somehow we have to break that cycle. In reality, the number of rehab success stories is miniscule - at least in the long term. |
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"
It was more linked to training people in construction but chain gangs are a nifty soundbite. I never actually proposed the hard labour for type of crime as that in itself is complex.
There is a really important difference between training convicts and properly employing them while incarcerated, and using them for free labour.
In terms of rehabilitation efforts, the former shows the convict they have the potential to be a productive and valued member of society, that their lives can progress towards something better, and crucially that they have something to aim for when released; the latter tells the convict that society considers them little more than an exploitable commodity.
In terms of economics, while it CAN be profitable to train and employ convicts, again it's important that it not be the priority, and the real benefit be seen as a long-term social one. Using convicts for free labour obviously is profitable, but usually only in the model that a private entity will enjoy the returns while the taxpayer foots more or less the same, incredibly expensive bill. This is extremely common in America.
The unfortunate reality is there is a very strong correlation between academic failure, illiteracy, innumeracy and so on, and criminality. It is very difficult to turn people who lack even the basic skills required to do any job at any level into economically productive people. Again this is why social and educational investment as a preventative is so important. People with a solid educational background and the potential to develop valuable professional skills tend much, much less towards criminality."
After the Great Depression of the 1930s F.D. Roosevelt turned the US around with his New Deal. So with that in mind, again less about the chain gangs, new skills, employment, deterrent for the softies, and getting on with the infrastructure needed, with the right spin it's not impossible. |
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"Anybody familiar with the criminal justice system will tell you that the majority of prisoners, especially repeat offenders, have some kind of addiction, be it drugs,
or alcohol. The pattern of re-offending is depressingly familiar, and somehow we have to break that cycle. In reality, the number of rehab success stories is miniscule - at least in the long term."
Instead of breaking the cycle we then need to prevent it. That means funding the youth programmes the twats took away. |
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"We should have stopped being so liberal towards the sentencing of offenders, the arrest of offenders and we should be supporting our criminal justice system, this might have had a positive influence on people not wanting to commit crime in the first place.
When we want to get tough on crime, it can be done as demonstrated recently, follow a progressives view of law and order and the world becomes dangerous it would seem"
That's a very authoritarian view which seeks to impose punitive measures in the belief that order can only be maintained with the threat of punishment.
.
And yet other authoritarian regimes around the world still find they have a problem with law and order. By imposing fear, you create the conditions for your own downfall. You lose respect. No one will support you.
Authoritarianism damages the very fabric of the society it "purports" to serve, and people are wise to the damage it does, nor will they tolerate it. They will either openly fight it, or clandestinely oppose and undermine it in less obvious ways.
When your only tool is a stick, all you can do is punish and threaten, and I would posit that there are more nuanced and finer ways to encourage a society (that willingly wishes to be coerced)
Coercion by fear only breeds negativity and thus the cycle continues. Self-fulfilling, ultimately.
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