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"First off I voted Lib Dem last election as only candidate that actually lived nearby. This labour party seem to be doubling down on being worse than the Tories with austerity on steroids and now proposing such things as pay per mile, scrapping council tax single occupant allowance and tax on main homes. None of this was in a _anifesto. Bit of a rant really but gosh what a shit show of a goverment all in the honeymoon phase so good help us further down the line. " "This labour party seem to be doubling down on being worse than the Tories with austerity on steroids". On the Labour side we have: Means tested winter fuel allowance. On the Tory side we had: Changes to housing benefits – maximum rents introduced Child benefits frozen for 3 years Local Authority services cut back/ended, including youth services, community engagement, and libraries. The age limit for people to be sharing a room under the local housing allowance was increased from 25 to 35 years old. The Welfare Reform Act 2012 was developed, which came into practice in 2013. This included: Bedroom tax: social housing tenants lost up to 25% of their benefit if they had a spare room. To work out if a room was spare, two children of different sexes up to the age of 10 were expected to share, and children of the same sex up to the age of 16 were expected to share. Universal Credit was outlined as a new means-tested benefit that turned benefits for people employed and unemployed into a single benefit. Personal Independence Payment (PIP) began to replace Disability Living Allowance (DLA) for new claimants. PIP involved more medical testing, and more frequent testing than DLA even for life-long conditions. Benefits for households became capped to mean that benefit levels could not be higher than average wages. Then later: Household benefit cap – the maximum benefits that a household could receive . Council tax benefit – cuts were made for working-age households to benefit payments that cover council tax. Legal aid cuts – resulted in a fall in the numbers of people getting state funded help in benefit cases. Benefits were frozen for four years from April 2016 (instead of rising with inflation) Two child tax credit cap was introduced for children born on/after 6th April 2017. Job centre closures. Etc etc. don't have the energy to add any more. | |||
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"First off I voted Lib Dem last election as only candidate that actually lived nearby. This labour party seem to be doubling down on being worse than the Tories with austerity on steroids and now proposing such things as pay per mile, scrapping council tax single occupant allowance and tax on main homes. None of this was in a _anifesto. Bit of a rant really but gosh what a shit show of a goverment all in the honeymoon phase so good help us further down the line. "This labour party seem to be doubling down on being worse than the Tories with austerity on steroids". On the Labour side we have: Means tested winter fuel allowance. On the Tory side we had: Changes to housing benefits – maximum rents introduced Child benefits frozen for 3 years Local Authority services cut back/ended, including youth services, community engagement, and libraries. The age limit for people to be sharing a room under the local housing allowance was increased from 25 to 35 years old. The Welfare Reform Act 2012 was developed, which came into practice in 2013. This included: Bedroom tax: social housing tenants lost up to 25% of their benefit if they had a spare room. To work out if a room was spare, two children of different sexes up to the age of 10 were expected to share, and children of the same sex up to the age of 16 were expected to share. Universal Credit was outlined as a new means-tested benefit that turned benefits for people employed and unemployed into a single benefit. Personal Independence Payment (PIP) began to replace Disability Living Allowance (DLA) for new claimants. PIP involved more medical testing, and more frequent testing than DLA even for life-long conditions. Benefits for households became capped to mean that benefit levels could not be higher than average wages. Then later: Household benefit cap – the maximum benefits that a household could receive . Council tax benefit – cuts were made for working-age households to benefit payments that cover council tax. Legal aid cuts – resulted in a fall in the numbers of people getting state funded help in benefit cases. Benefits were frozen for four years from April 2016 (instead of rising with inflation) Two child tax credit cap was introduced for children born on/after 6th April 2017. Job centre closures. Etc etc. don't have the energy to add any more. " Well said, Mrs x | |||
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"First off I voted Lib Dem last election as only candidate that actually lived nearby. This labour party seem to be doubling down on being worse than the Tories with austerity on steroids and now proposing such things as pay per mile, scrapping council tax single occupant allowance and tax on main homes. None of this was in a _anifesto. Bit of a rant really but gosh what a shit show of a goverment all in the honeymoon phase so good help us further down the line. "This labour party seem to be doubling down on being worse than the Tories with austerity on steroids". On the Labour side we have: Means tested winter fuel allowance. On the Tory side we had: Changes to housing benefits – maximum rents introduced Child benefits frozen for 3 years Local Authority services cut back/ended, including youth services, community engagement, and libraries. The age limit for people to be sharing a room under the local housing allowance was increased from 25 to 35 years old. The Welfare Reform Act 2012 was developed, which came into practice in 2013. This included: Bedroom tax: social housing tenants lost up to 25% of their benefit if they had a spare room. To work out if a room was spare, two children of different sexes up to the age of 10 were expected to share, and children of the same sex up to the age of 16 were expected to share. Universal Credit was outlined as a new means-tested benefit that turned benefits for people employed and unemployed into a single benefit. Personal Independence Payment (PIP) began to replace Disability Living Allowance (DLA) for new claimants. PIP involved more medical testing, and more frequent testing than DLA even for life-long conditions. Benefits for households became capped to mean that benefit levels could not be higher than average wages. Then later: Household benefit cap – the maximum benefits that a household could receive . Council tax benefit – cuts were made for working-age households to benefit payments that cover council tax. Legal aid cuts – resulted in a fall in the numbers of people getting state funded help in benefit cases. Benefits were frozen for four years from April 2016 (instead of rising with inflation) Two child tax credit cap was introduced for children born on/after 6th April 2017. Job centre closures. Etc etc. don't have the energy to add any more. " Will Labour reverse any of those? Or are these new cuts/taxes in addition? | |||
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"scrapping council tax single occupant allowance and tax on main homes. None of this was in a _anifesto. . " Missed that one One-person households (those living alone) are the second most common type of household, accounting for almost 1 in 3 (30%) UK households in 2022, 8.3 million households. This is a similar proportion to 2012 when one-person households accounted for 29% of UK households (7.7 million households). ONS 18 May 2023 A potentially substantial grab | |||
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"Imaging comparing 13 days to 13 years to show how bad the other team are "Barratt homes the largest house builder reported yesterday new build completions down 18.6% Industry paper reports. New homes built in the UK in 2024 plunges by fifth in blow to government house building targets How will Rayner build the 1.5 million new homes. | |||
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"First off I voted Lib Dem last election as only candidate that actually lived nearby. This labour party seem to be doubling down on being worse than the Tories with austerity on steroids and now proposing such things as pay per mile, scrapping council tax single occupant allowance and tax on main homes. None of this was in a _anifesto. Bit of a rant really but gosh what a shit show of a goverment all in the honeymoon phase so good help us further down the line. "This labour party seem to be doubling down on being worse than the Tories with austerity on steroids". On the Labour side we have: Means tested winter fuel allowance. On the Tory side we had: Changes to housing benefits – maximum rents introduced Child benefits frozen for 3 years Local Authority services cut back/ended, including youth services, community engagement, and libraries. The age limit for people to be sharing a room under the local housing allowance was increased from 25 to 35 years old. The Welfare Reform Act 2012 was developed, which came into practice in 2013. This included: Bedroom tax: social housing tenants lost up to 25% of their benefit if they had a spare room. To work out if a room was spare, two children of different sexes up to the age of 10 were expected to share, and children of the same sex up to the age of 16 were expected to share. Universal Credit was outlined as a new means-tested benefit that turned benefits for people employed and unemployed into a single benefit. Personal Independence Payment (PIP) began to replace Disability Living Allowance (DLA) for new claimants. PIP involved more medical testing, and more frequent testing than DLA even for life-long conditions. Benefits for households became capped to mean that benefit levels could not be higher than average wages. Then later: Household benefit cap – the maximum benefits that a household could receive . Council tax benefit – cuts were made for working-age households to benefit payments that cover council tax. Legal aid cuts – resulted in a fall in the numbers of people getting state funded help in benefit cases. Benefits were frozen for four years from April 2016 (instead of rising with inflation) Two child tax credit cap was introduced for children born on/after 6th April 2017. Job centre closures. Etc etc. don't have the energy to add any more. " you left out labour OPEN borders lol | |||
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"as a single man approaching retirement I do not mind paying my fair share of tax but I am not rich & it does feel like people of my age are being victimized by a fake labour government afraid to tax the rich. " The single dad tax on the council tax changes rumoured is another low blow. | |||
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"as a single man approaching retirement I do not mind paying my fair share of tax but I am not rich & it does feel like people of my age are being victimized by a fake labour government afraid to tax the rich. The single dad tax on the council tax changes rumoured is another low blow. " Single Dad? I think you mean single person? | |||
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"First off I voted Lib Dem last election as only candidate that actually lived nearby. This labour party seem to be doubling down on being worse than the Tories with austerity on steroids and now proposing such things as pay per mile, scrapping council tax single occupant allowance and tax on main homes. None of this was in a _anifesto. Bit of a rant really but gosh what a shit show of a goverment all in the honeymoon phase so good help us further down the line. "This labour party seem to be doubling down on being worse than the Tories with austerity on steroids". On the Labour side we have: Means tested winter fuel allowance. On the Tory side we had: Changes to housing benefits – maximum rents introduced Child benefits frozen for 3 years Local Authority services cut back/ended, including youth services, community engagement, and libraries. The age limit for people to be sharing a room under the local housing allowance was increased from 25 to 35 years old. The Welfare Reform Act 2012 was developed, which came into practice in 2013. This included: Bedroom tax: social housing tenants lost up to 25% of their benefit if they had a spare room. To work out if a room was spare, two children of different sexes up to the age of 10 were expected to share, and children of the same sex up to the age of 16 were expected to share. Universal Credit was outlined as a new means-tested benefit that turned benefits for people employed and unemployed into a single benefit. Personal Independence Payment (PIP) began to replace Disability Living Allowance (DLA) for new claimants. PIP involved more medical testing, and more frequent testing than DLA even for life-long conditions. Benefits for households became capped to mean that benefit levels could not be higher than average wages. Then later: Household benefit cap – the maximum benefits that a household could receive . Council tax benefit – cuts were made for working-age households to benefit payments that cover council tax. Legal aid cuts – resulted in a fall in the numbers of people getting state funded help in benefit cases. Benefits were frozen for four years from April 2016 (instead of rising with inflation) Two child tax credit cap was introduced for children born on/after 6th April 2017. Job centre closures. Etc etc. don't have the energy to add any more. you left out labour OPEN borders lol" Is this something that has happened in real life, or just the same old tired trope. And is it related to the austerity point? | |||
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"First off I voted Lib Dem last election as only candidate that actually lived nearby. This labour party seem to be doubling down on being worse than the Tories with austerity on steroids and now proposing such things as pay per mile, scrapping council tax single occupant allowance and tax on main homes. None of this was in a _anifesto. Bit of a rant really but gosh what a shit show of a goverment all in the honeymoon phase so good help us further down the line. "This labour party seem to be doubling down on being worse than the Tories with austerity on steroids". On the Labour side we have: Means tested winter fuel allowance. On the Tory side we had: Changes to housing benefits – maximum rents introduced Child benefits frozen for 3 years Local Authority services cut back/ended, including youth services, community engagement, and libraries. The age limit for people to be sharing a room under the local housing allowance was increased from 25 to 35 years old. The Welfare Reform Act 2012 was developed, which came into practice in 2013. This included: Bedroom tax: social housing tenants lost up to 25% of their benefit if they had a spare room. To work out if a room was spare, two children of different sexes up to the age of 10 were expected to share, and children of the same sex up to the age of 16 were expected to share. Universal Credit was outlined as a new means-tested benefit that turned benefits for people employed and unemployed into a single benefit. Personal Independence Payment (PIP) began to replace Disability Living Allowance (DLA) for new claimants. PIP involved more medical testing, and more frequent testing than DLA even for life-long conditions. Benefits for households became capped to mean that benefit levels could not be higher than average wages. Then later: Household benefit cap – the maximum benefits that a household could receive . Council tax benefit – cuts were made for working-age households to benefit payments that cover council tax. Legal aid cuts – resulted in a fall in the numbers of people getting state funded help in benefit cases. Benefits were frozen for four years from April 2016 (instead of rising with inflation) Two child tax credit cap was introduced for children born on/after 6th April 2017. Job centre closures. Etc etc. don't have the energy to add any more. you left out labour OPEN borders lol Is this something that has happened in real life, or just the same old tired trope. And is it related to the austerity point?" Perhaps you missed my question above. Will Labour reverse any of the policies you have so diligently listed? If so which ones? | |||
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Reply privately (closed, thread got too big) | |||
"First off I voted Lib Dem last election as only candidate that actually lived nearby. This labour party seem to be doubling down on being worse than the Tories with austerity on steroids and now proposing such things as pay per mile, scrapping council tax single occupant allowance and tax on main homes. None of this was in a _anifesto. Bit of a rant really but gosh what a shit show of a goverment all in the honeymoon phase so good help us further down the line. "This labour party seem to be doubling down on being worse than the Tories with austerity on steroids". On the Labour side we have: Means tested winter fuel allowance. On the Tory side we had: Changes to housing benefits – maximum rents introduced Child benefits frozen for 3 years Local Authority services cut back/ended, including youth services, community engagement, and libraries. The age limit for people to be sharing a room under the local housing allowance was increased from 25 to 35 years old. The Welfare Reform Act 2012 was developed, which came into practice in 2013. This included: Bedroom tax: social housing tenants lost up to 25% of their benefit if they had a spare room. To work out if a room was spare, two children of different sexes up to the age of 10 were expected to share, and children of the same sex up to the age of 16 were expected to share. Universal Credit was outlined as a new means-tested benefit that turned benefits for people employed and unemployed into a single benefit. Personal Independence Payment (PIP) began to replace Disability Living Allowance (DLA) for new claimants. PIP involved more medical testing, and more frequent testing than DLA even for life-long conditions. Benefits for households became capped to mean that benefit levels could not be higher than average wages. Then later: Household benefit cap – the maximum benefits that a household could receive . Council tax benefit – cuts were made for working-age households to benefit payments that cover council tax. Legal aid cuts – resulted in a fall in the numbers of people getting state funded help in benefit cases. Benefits were frozen for four years from April 2016 (instead of rising with inflation) Two child tax credit cap was introduced for children born on/after 6th April 2017. Job centre closures. Etc etc. don't have the energy to add any more. you left out labour OPEN borders lol Is this something that has happened in real life, or just the same old tired trope. And is it related to the austerity point? Perhaps you missed my question above. Will Labour reverse any of the policies you have so diligently listed? If so which ones?" No idea. | |||
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"First off I voted Lib Dem last election as only candidate that actually lived nearby. This labour party seem to be doubling down on being worse than the Tories with austerity on steroids and now proposing such things as pay per mile, scrapping council tax single occupant allowance and tax on main homes. None of this was in a _anifesto. Bit of a rant really but gosh what a shit show of a goverment all in the honeymoon phase so good help us further down the line. "This labour party seem to be doubling down on being worse than the Tories with austerity on steroids". On the Labour side we have: Means tested winter fuel allowance. On the Tory side we had: Changes to housing benefits – maximum rents introduced Child benefits frozen for 3 years Local Authority services cut back/ended, including youth services, community engagement, and libraries. The age limit for people to be sharing a room under the local housing allowance was increased from 25 to 35 years old. The Welfare Reform Act 2012 was developed, which came into practice in 2013. This included: Bedroom tax: social housing tenants lost up to 25% of their benefit if they had a spare room. To work out if a room was spare, two children of different sexes up to the age of 10 were expected to share, and children of the same sex up to the age of 16 were expected to share. Universal Credit was outlined as a new means-tested benefit that turned benefits for people employed and unemployed into a single benefit. Personal Independence Payment (PIP) began to replace Disability Living Allowance (DLA) for new claimants. PIP involved more medical testing, and more frequent testing than DLA even for life-long conditions. Benefits for households became capped to mean that benefit levels could not be higher than average wages. Then later: Household benefit cap – the maximum benefits that a household could receive . Council tax benefit – cuts were made for working-age households to benefit payments that cover council tax. Legal aid cuts – resulted in a fall in the numbers of people getting state funded help in benefit cases. Benefits were frozen for four years from April 2016 (instead of rising with inflation) Two child tax credit cap was introduced for children born on/after 6th April 2017. Job centre closures. Etc etc. don't have the energy to add any more. you left out labour OPEN borders lol Is this something that has happened in real life, or just the same old tired trope. And is it related to the austerity point? Perhaps you missed my question above. Will Labour reverse any of the policies you have so diligently listed? If so which ones? No idea. " Rather devalues your 'whataboutery' if Labour are continuing the same policies. | |||
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"It's the difference to being in opposition and being in power. Easy to chuck bricks from the opposition benches, but tougher when you're making the calls. Certainly the optics of Labour's pronouncements so far could have been managed better." Your right, before the election they were telling us how much better they were than the previous shambles. As soon as they had to change from just talking to actually acting, they fall flat. They even copied the Tories favourite of putting their buddies in top jobs, something I thought we had seen an end of. | |||
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"It's the difference to being in opposition and being in power. Easy to chuck bricks from the opposition benches, but tougher when you're making the calls. Certainly the optics of Labour's pronouncements so far could have been managed better. Your right, before the election they were telling us how much better they were than the previous shambles. As soon as they had to change from just talking to actually acting, they fall flat. They even copied the Tories favourite of putting their buddies in top jobs, something I thought we had seen an end of." I'm not sure being the government has sunk in yet, Starmer repeatedly referring to Sunak as the Prime Minister yesterday was a key indicator of this. | |||
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" We also have the luxury of 1.5 million new homes being built in our back gardens in the next few years. "New build completions are down 17.6% YoY. Private sector built 133,213 new homes in 2023, down 12% on 2022 (151,308). Inside housing (7 Feb 2024) Increasing annual completions from 133k to 300k is nonsense from Rayner. | |||
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"First off I voted Lib Dem last election as only candidate that actually lived nearby. This labour party seem to be doubling down on being worse than the Tories with austerity on steroids and now proposing such things as pay per mile, scrapping council tax single occupant allowance and tax on main homes. None of this was in a _anifesto. Bit of a rant really but gosh what a shit show of a goverment all in the honeymoon phase so good help us further down the line. "This labour party seem to be doubling down on being worse than the Tories with austerity on steroids". On the Labour side we have: Means tested winter fuel allowance. On the Tory side we had: Changes to housing benefits – maximum rents introduced Child benefits frozen for 3 years Local Authority services cut back/ended, including youth services, community engagement, and libraries. The age limit for people to be sharing a room under the local housing allowance was increased from 25 to 35 years old. The Welfare Reform Act 2012 was developed, which came into practice in 2013. This included: Bedroom tax: social housing tenants lost up to 25% of their benefit if they had a spare room. To work out if a room was spare, two children of different sexes up to the age of 10 were expected to share, and children of the same sex up to the age of 16 were expected to share. Universal Credit was outlined as a new means-tested benefit that turned benefits for people employed and unemployed into a single benefit. Personal Independence Payment (PIP) began to replace Disability Living Allowance (DLA) for new claimants. PIP involved more medical testing, and more frequent testing than DLA even for life-long conditions. Benefits for households became capped to mean that benefit levels could not be higher than average wages. Then later: Household benefit cap – the maximum benefits that a household could receive . Council tax benefit – cuts were made for working-age households to benefit payments that cover council tax. Legal aid cuts – resulted in a fall in the numbers of people getting state funded help in benefit cases. Benefits were frozen for four years from April 2016 (instead of rising with inflation) Two child tax credit cap was introduced for children born on/after 6th April 2017. Job centre closures. Etc etc. don't have the energy to add any more. " So instead of reversing some of those decisions and making things better, good ol Labour leave them all in place and make more decisions that make things worse. You know this is true!! | |||
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"First off I voted Lib Dem last election as only candidate that actually lived nearby. This labour party seem to be doubling down on being worse than the Tories with austerity on steroids and now proposing such things as pay per mile, scrapping council tax single occupant allowance and tax on main homes. None of this was in a _anifesto. Bit of a rant really but gosh what a shit show of a goverment all in the honeymoon phase so good help us further down the line. "This labour party seem to be doubling down on being worse than the Tories with austerity on steroids". On the Labour side we have: Means tested winter fuel allowance. On the Tory side we had: Changes to housing benefits – maximum rents introduced Child benefits frozen for 3 years Local Authority services cut back/ended, including youth services, community engagement, and libraries. The age limit for people to be sharing a room under the local housing allowance was increased from 25 to 35 years old. The Welfare Reform Act 2012 was developed, which came into practice in 2013. This included: Bedroom tax: social housing tenants lost up to 25% of their benefit if they had a spare room. To work out if a room was spare, two children of different sexes up to the age of 10 were expected to share, and children of the same sex up to the age of 16 were expected to share. Universal Credit was outlined as a new means-tested benefit that turned benefits for people employed and unemployed into a single benefit. Personal Independence Payment (PIP) began to replace Disability Living Allowance (DLA) for new claimants. PIP involved more medical testing, and more frequent testing than DLA even for life-long conditions. Benefits for households became capped to mean that benefit levels could not be higher than average wages. Then later: Household benefit cap – the maximum benefits that a household could receive . Council tax benefit – cuts were made for working-age households to benefit payments that cover council tax. Legal aid cuts – resulted in a fall in the numbers of people getting state funded help in benefit cases. Benefits were frozen for four years from April 2016 (instead of rising with inflation) Two child tax credit cap was introduced for children born on/after 6th April 2017. Job centre closures. Etc etc. don't have the energy to add any more. So instead of reversing some of those decisions and making things better, good ol Labour leave them all in place and make more decisions that make things worse. You know this is true!!" The national debt stands at £2.8trillion, or £100,000 per household in the UK. It is nearly three times the £1trillion when Labour left power in 2010, when apparently there was "no money left". Have you any better suggestions how to stop us borrowing more and more? | |||
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"It's the difference to being in opposition and being in power. Easy to chuck bricks from the opposition benches, but tougher when you're making the calls. Certainly the optics of Labour's pronouncements so far could have been managed better. Your right, before the election they were telling us how much better they were than the previous shambles. As soon as they had to change from just talking to actually acting, they fall flat. They even copied the Tories favourite of putting their buddies in top jobs, something I thought we had seen an end of. I'm not sure being the government has sunk in yet, Starmer repeatedly referring to Sunak as the Prime Minister yesterday was a key indicator of this. " Haha says it all when someone so fucking stupid he doesn't even know he is the prime minister is running the country | |||
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" The national debt stands at £2.8trillion, or £100,000 per household in the UK. It is nearly three times the £1trillion when Labour left power in 2010, when apparently there was "no money left". Have you any better suggestions how to stop us borrowing more and more?" And that is after austerity and the highest tax rises under Sunak, since 1948. The interest is £300 million a day at current interest rates. Cannot see any way this can be unpicked. All they can do is increase our taxes to pay the ever increasing interest. | |||
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"It's the difference to being in opposition and being in power. Easy to chuck bricks from the opposition benches, but tougher when you're making the calls. Certainly the optics of Labour's pronouncements so far could have been managed better. Your right, before the election they were telling us how much better they were than the previous shambles. As soon as they had to change from just talking to actually acting, they fall flat. They even copied the Tories favourite of putting their buddies in top jobs, something I thought we had seen an end of. I'm not sure being the government has sunk in yet, Starmer repeatedly referring to Sunak as the Prime Minister yesterday was a key indicator of this. Haha says it all when someone so fucking stupid he doesn't even know he is the prime minister is running the country " He reminds me of Nice but Dim Tim!  | |||
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"A bit of a cliche, I know. But COVID 19 and the subsequent mismanagement of our population during the pandemic, has cost us one hell of a lot of money. Contrary to popular leftist beliefs, it don’t grow on trees old chap!" Yes Covid cost more than £400 billion, but whatever the reasons why the debt is so high, it is what it is, but let's hear your suggestions for reducing it? Have you got any? | |||
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"It's the difference to being in opposition and being in power. Easy to chuck bricks from the opposition benches, but tougher when you're making the calls. Certainly the optics of Labour's pronouncements so far could have been managed better. Your right, before the election they were telling us how much better they were than the previous shambles. As soon as they had to change from just talking to actually acting, they fall flat. They even copied the Tories favourite of putting their buddies in top jobs, something I thought we had seen an end of. I'm not sure being the government has sunk in yet, Starmer repeatedly referring to Sunak as the Prime Minister yesterday was a key indicator of this. Haha says it all when someone so fucking stupid he doesn't even know he is the prime minister is running the country He reminds me of Nice but Dim Tim! "Glasshouses and stones spring to mind lol | |||
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"It's the difference to being in opposition and being in power. Easy to chuck bricks from the opposition benches, but tougher when you're making the calls. Certainly the optics of Labour's pronouncements so far could have been managed better. Your right, before the election they were telling us how much better they were than the previous shambles. As soon as they had to change from just talking to actually acting, they fall flat. They even copied the Tories favourite of putting their buddies in top jobs, something I thought we had seen an end of. I'm not sure being the government has sunk in yet, Starmer repeatedly referring to Sunak as the Prime Minister yesterday was a key indicator of this. Haha says it all when someone so fucking stupid he doesn't even know he is the prime minister is running the country He reminds me of Nice but Dim Tim!
Glasshouses and stones spring to mind lol"Must be like an echo chamber, in that brain of yours. Lookout, it’s ok, it’s tumble. Lol | |||
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"[Removed by poster at 05/09/24 21:30:26]" ok in two different words. Tumble s | |||
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"First off I voted Lib Dem last election as only candidate that actually lived nearby. This labour party seem to be doubling down on being worse than the Tories with austerity on steroids and now proposing such things as pay per mile, scrapping council tax single occupant allowance and tax on main homes. None of this was in a _anifesto. Bit of a rant really but gosh what a shit show of a goverment all in the honeymoon phase so good help us further down the line. "This labour party seem to be doubling down on being worse than the Tories with austerity on steroids". On the Labour side we have: Means tested winter fuel allowance. On the Tory side we had: Changes to housing benefits – maximum rents introduced Child benefits frozen for 3 years Local Authority services cut back/ended, including youth services, community engagement, and libraries. The age limit for people to be sharing a room under the local housing allowance was increased from 25 to 35 years old. The Welfare Reform Act 2012 was developed, which came into practice in 2013. This included: Bedroom tax: social housing tenants lost up to 25% of their benefit if they had a spare room. To work out if a room was spare, two children of different sexes up to the age of 10 were expected to share, and children of the same sex up to the age of 16 were expected to share. Universal Credit was outlined as a new means-tested benefit that turned benefits for people employed and unemployed into a single benefit. Personal Independence Payment (PIP) began to replace Disability Living Allowance (DLA) for new claimants. PIP involved more medical testing, and more frequent testing than DLA even for life-long conditions. Benefits for households became capped to mean that benefit levels could not be higher than average wages. Then later: Household benefit cap – the maximum benefits that a household could receive . Council tax benefit – cuts were made for working-age households to benefit payments that cover council tax. Legal aid cuts – resulted in a fall in the numbers of people getting state funded help in benefit cases. Benefits were frozen for four years from April 2016 (instead of rising with inflation) Two child tax credit cap was introduced for children born on/after 6th April 2017. Job centre closures. Etc etc. don't have the energy to add any more. you left out labour OPEN borders lol Is this something that has happened in real life, or just the same old tired trope. And is it related to the austerity point? Perhaps you missed my question above. Will Labour reverse any of the policies you have so diligently listed? If so which ones? No idea. Rather devalues your 'whataboutery' if Labour are continuing the same policies." That's not what I was doing. I was highlighting that the statement "This labour party seem to be doubling down on being worse than the Tories with austerity on steroids", is ridiculous. | |||
Reply privately (closed, thread got too big) | |||
"First off I voted Lib Dem last election as only candidate that actually lived nearby. This labour party seem to be doubling down on being worse than the Tories with austerity on steroids and now proposing such things as pay per mile, scrapping council tax single occupant allowance and tax on main homes. None of this was in a _anifesto. Bit of a rant really but gosh what a shit show of a goverment all in the honeymoon phase so good help us further down the line. "This labour party seem to be doubling down on being worse than the Tories with austerity on steroids". On the Labour side we have: Means tested winter fuel allowance. On the Tory side we had: Changes to housing benefits – maximum rents introduced Child benefits frozen for 3 years Local Authority services cut back/ended, including youth services, community engagement, and libraries. The age limit for people to be sharing a room under the local housing allowance was increased from 25 to 35 years old. The Welfare Reform Act 2012 was developed, which came into practice in 2013. This included: Bedroom tax: social housing tenants lost up to 25% of their benefit if they had a spare room. To work out if a room was spare, two children of different sexes up to the age of 10 were expected to share, and children of the same sex up to the age of 16 were expected to share. Universal Credit was outlined as a new means-tested benefit that turned benefits for people employed and unemployed into a single benefit. Personal Independence Payment (PIP) began to replace Disability Living Allowance (DLA) for new claimants. PIP involved more medical testing, and more frequent testing than DLA even for life-long conditions. Benefits for households became capped to mean that benefit levels could not be higher than average wages. Then later: Household benefit cap – the maximum benefits that a household could receive . Council tax benefit – cuts were made for working-age households to benefit payments that cover council tax. Legal aid cuts – resulted in a fall in the numbers of people getting state funded help in benefit cases. Benefits were frozen for four years from April 2016 (instead of rising with inflation) Two child tax credit cap was introduced for children born on/after 6th April 2017. Job centre closures. Etc etc. don't have the energy to add any more. you left out labour OPEN borders lol Is this something that has happened in real life, or just the same old tired trope. And is it related to the austerity point? Perhaps you missed my question above. Will Labour reverse any of the policies you have so diligently listed? If so which ones? No idea. Rather devalues your 'whataboutery' if Labour are continuing the same policies." Reversing shit policies won't be improving the black hole. They should concentrate on economic growth, and reverse some of the shit before the next GE 😇 | |||
Reply privately (closed, thread got too big) | |||
"Don't knock them just yet, they are delivering Great British energy soon, that winter fuel payment will be replaced by super free state owned energy, employing hundreds of thousands of people, good times are coming. Don't forget, spending will not be the unmanaged on a whim kind of affair it must meet the tight fiscal rules! If there is no money there is no spending on anything other than junior doctors, rail workers and any other public sector workforce who wants an over inflation rise while the purse is open. We also have the luxury of 1.5 million new homes being built in our back gardens in the next few years. Excellent plan, get the private sector to pay for it, I can see this one flying and nothing going wrong such as poor workmanship and years of claims for substandard housing that will be blamed on builders who couldn't build enough houses in time. Happy days are only 4 years 9 months and 2 weeks away. "Omg change the bloody record about public sector pay! | |||
Reply privately (closed, thread got too big) | |||
"Don't knock them just yet, they are delivering Great British energy soon, that winter fuel payment will be replaced by super free state owned energy, employing hundreds of thousands of people, good times are coming. Don't forget, spending will not be the unmanaged on a whim kind of affair it must meet the tight fiscal rules! If there is no money there is no spending on anything other than junior doctors, rail workers and any other public sector workforce who wants an over inflation rise while the purse is open. We also have the luxury of 1.5 million new homes being built in our back gardens in the next few years. Excellent plan, get the private sector to pay for it, I can see this one flying and nothing going wrong such as poor workmanship and years of claims for substandard housing that will be blamed on builders who couldn't build enough houses in time. Happy days are only 4 years 9 months and 2 weeks away.
Omg change the bloody record about public sector pay!"No | |||
Reply privately (closed, thread got too big) | |||
"Don't knock them just yet, they are delivering Great British energy soon, that winter fuel payment will be replaced by super free state owned energy, employing hundreds of thousands of people, good times are coming. Don't forget, spending will not be the unmanaged on a whim kind of affair it must meet the tight fiscal rules! If there is no money there is no spending on anything other than junior doctors, rail workers and any other public sector workforce who wants an over inflation rise while the purse is open. We also have the luxury of 1.5 million new homes being built in our back gardens in the next few years. Excellent plan, get the private sector to pay for it, I can see this one flying and nothing going wrong such as poor workmanship and years of claims for substandard housing that will be blamed on builders who couldn't build enough houses in time. Happy days are only 4 years 9 months and 2 weeks away.
Omg change the bloody record about public sector pay!
No"So 14 years of either below inflation salary increases or zero increase, and you moan about one year of above inflation (which apart from junior doctors) doesn't touch the sides of what was lost. This had been part negotiated during strikes, hence was a "seemingly" generous increase by the review body. The review body of the then sitting tory pm (chief of said board). And yet you whine like a banshee about the Labour government who merely honoured it. Beggars bloody belief. I think it's also very selfish of any tax payer who thinks the same way as you! | |||
Reply privately (closed, thread got too big) | |||
"Don't knock them just yet, they are delivering Great British energy soon, that winter fuel payment will be replaced by super free state owned energy, employing hundreds of thousands of people, good times are coming. Don't forget, spending will not be the unmanaged on a whim kind of affair it must meet the tight fiscal rules! If there is no money there is no spending on anything other than junior doctors, rail workers and any other public sector workforce who wants an over inflation rise while the purse is open. We also have the luxury of 1.5 million new homes being built in our back gardens in the next few years. Excellent plan, get the private sector to pay for it, I can see this one flying and nothing going wrong such as poor workmanship and years of claims for substandard housing that will be blamed on builders who couldn't build enough houses in time. Happy days are only 4 years 9 months and 2 weeks away.
Omg change the bloody record about public sector pay!
No
So 14 years of either below inflation salary increases or zero increase, and you moan about one year of above inflation (which apart from junior doctors) doesn't touch the sides of what was lost. This had been part negotiated during strikes, hence was a "seemingly" generous increase by the review body. The review body of the then sitting tory pm (chief of said board). And yet you whine like a banshee about the Labour government who merely honoured it. Beggars bloody belief. I think it's also very selfish of any tax payer who thinks the same way as you!"Whining? Is that because I have an alternative view of this? They know the starting salary when they join, why start the process if you are not happy with the wage? I’m not convinced we are attracting the right calibre of people into the role if this is their behaviour, start and then hold the people to ransom. I’m also concerned about the future implications of such a rise, but that doesn’t seem to be a consideration for you, which makes me question what you are basing your opinions on. | |||
Reply privately (closed, thread got too big) | |||
"Don't knock them just yet, they are delivering Great British energy soon, that winter fuel payment will be replaced by super free state owned energy, employing hundreds of thousands of people, good times are coming. Don't forget, spending will not be the unmanaged on a whim kind of affair it must meet the tight fiscal rules! If there is no money there is no spending on anything other than junior doctors, rail workers and any other public sector workforce who wants an over inflation rise while the purse is open. We also have the luxury of 1.5 million new homes being built in our back gardens in the next few years. Excellent plan, get the private sector to pay for it, I can see this one flying and nothing going wrong such as poor workmanship and years of claims for substandard housing that will be blamed on builders who couldn't build enough houses in time. Happy days are only 4 years 9 months and 2 weeks away.
Omg change the bloody record about public sector pay!
No
So 14 years of either below inflation salary increases or zero increase, and you moan about one year of above inflation (which apart from junior doctors) doesn't touch the sides of what was lost. This had been part negotiated during strikes, hence was a "seemingly" generous increase by the review body. The review body of the then sitting tory pm (chief of said board). And yet you whine like a banshee about the Labour government who merely honoured it. Beggars bloody belief. I think it's also very selfish of any tax payer who thinks the same way as you!
Whining? Is that because I have an alternative view of this?
They know the starting salary when they join, why start the process if you are not happy with the wage?
I’m not convinced we are attracting the right calibre of people into the role if this is their behaviour, start and then hold the people to ransom.
I’m also concerned about the future implications of such a rise, but that doesn’t seem to be a consideration for you, which makes me question what you are basing your opinions on."That's funny, the right calibre of people? What, happy to accept shit pay. Do you know how many nursing vacancies there are in England alone? I base my opinions on both facts and experience. | |||
Reply privately (closed, thread got too big) | |||
"Don't knock them just yet, they are delivering Great British energy soon, that winter fuel payment will be replaced by super free state owned energy, employing hundreds of thousands of people, good times are coming. Don't forget, spending will not be the unmanaged on a whim kind of affair it must meet the tight fiscal rules! If there is no money there is no spending on anything other than junior doctors, rail workers and any other public sector workforce who wants an over inflation rise while the purse is open. We also have the luxury of 1.5 million new homes being built in our back gardens in the next few years. Excellent plan, get the private sector to pay for it, I can see this one flying and nothing going wrong such as poor workmanship and years of claims for substandard housing that will be blamed on builders who couldn't build enough houses in time. Happy days are only 4 years 9 months and 2 weeks away.
Omg change the bloody record about public sector pay!
No
So 14 years of either below inflation salary increases or zero increase, and you moan about one year of above inflation (which apart from junior doctors) doesn't touch the sides of what was lost. This had been part negotiated during strikes, hence was a "seemingly" generous increase by the review body. The review body of the then sitting tory pm (chief of said board). And yet you whine like a banshee about the Labour government who merely honoured it. Beggars bloody belief. I think it's also very selfish of any tax payer who thinks the same way as you!
Whining? Is that because I have an alternative view of this?
They know the starting salary when they join, why start the process if you are not happy with the wage?
I’m not convinced we are attracting the right calibre of people into the role if this is their behaviour, start and then hold the people to ransom.
I’m also concerned about the future implications of such a rise, but that doesn’t seem to be a consideration for you, which makes me question what you are basing your opinions on.
That's funny, the right calibre of people? What, happy to accept shit pay. Do you know how many nursing vacancies there are in England alone?
I base my opinions on both facts and experience."You're completely ignoring the point that the starting salaries were and are known before these people started on their journeys. | |||
Reply privately (closed, thread got too big) | |||
" You're completely ignoring the point that the starting salaries were and are known before these people started on their journeys. " So, as a matter of interest are you against the National Minimum Pay levels introduced because companies were paying so little to certain workers that the taxpayer was having to top up their wages? | |||
Reply privately (closed, thread got too big) | |||
| |||
Reply privately (closed, thread got too big) | |||
" You're completely ignoring the point that the starting salaries were and are known before these people started on their journeys. So, as a matter of interest are you against the National Minimum Pay levels introduced because companies were paying so little to certain workers that the taxpayer was having to top up their wages?" Not even close to equivalence. | |||
Reply privately (closed, thread got too big) | |||
"Don't knock them just yet, they are delivering Great British energy soon, that winter fuel payment will be replaced by super free state owned energy, employing hundreds of thousands of people, good times are coming. Don't forget, spending will not be the unmanaged on a whim kind of affair it must meet the tight fiscal rules! If there is no money there is no spending on anything other than junior doctors, rail workers and any other public sector workforce who wants an over inflation rise while the purse is open. We also have the luxury of 1.5 million new homes being built in our back gardens in the next few years. Excellent plan, get the private sector to pay for it, I can see this one flying and nothing going wrong such as poor workmanship and years of claims for substandard housing that will be blamed on builders who couldn't build enough houses in time. Happy days are only 4 years 9 months and 2 weeks away.
Omg change the bloody record about public sector pay!
No
So 14 years of either below inflation salary increases or zero increase, and you moan about one year of above inflation (which apart from junior doctors) doesn't touch the sides of what was lost. This had been part negotiated during strikes, hence was a "seemingly" generous increase by the review body. The review body of the then sitting tory pm (chief of said board). And yet you whine like a banshee about the Labour government who merely honoured it. Beggars bloody belief. I think it's also very selfish of any tax payer who thinks the same way as you!
Whining? Is that because I have an alternative view of this?
They know the starting salary when they join, why start the process if you are not happy with the wage?
I’m not convinced we are attracting the right calibre of people into the role if this is their behaviour, start and then hold the people to ransom.
I’m also concerned about the future implications of such a rise, but that doesn’t seem to be a consideration for you, which makes me question what you are basing your opinions on.
That's funny, the right calibre of people? What, happy to accept shit pay. Do you know how many nursing vacancies there are in England alone?
I base my opinions on both facts and experience.
You're completely ignoring the point that the starting salaries were and are known before these people started on their journeys.
"When you go to uni, yes you know the salary ranges. They differ vastly between nhs and private. When you go to uni you are also aware that you can get a nursing job anywhere in the world (circumstances permitting). When you go to uni you are also aware that the salary will have increased by the time you get your degree and your registration. You are also aware that getting a good result in the nursing degree means you can go for a masters in a completely different field that pays better. This means the nhs starting salary for a newly qualified nurse means little to the student nurse. This means the govt should tempt the newly qualified nurse with a decent wage! | |||
Reply privately (closed, thread got too big) | |||
"Don't knock them just yet, they are delivering Great British energy soon, that winter fuel payment will be replaced by super free state owned energy, employing hundreds of thousands of people, good times are coming. Don't forget, spending will not be the unmanaged on a whim kind of affair it must meet the tight fiscal rules! If there is no money there is no spending on anything other than junior doctors, rail workers and any other public sector workforce who wants an over inflation rise while the purse is open. We also have the luxury of 1.5 million new homes being built in our back gardens in the next few years. Excellent plan, get the private sector to pay for it, I can see this one flying and nothing going wrong such as poor workmanship and years of claims for substandard housing that will be blamed on builders who couldn't build enough houses in time. Happy days are only 4 years 9 months and 2 weeks away.
Omg change the bloody record about public sector pay!
No
So 14 years of either below inflation salary increases or zero increase, and you moan about one year of above inflation (which apart from junior doctors) doesn't touch the sides of what was lost. This had been part negotiated during strikes, hence was a "seemingly" generous increase by the review body. The review body of the then sitting tory pm (chief of said board). And yet you whine like a banshee about the Labour government who merely honoured it. Beggars bloody belief. I think it's also very selfish of any tax payer who thinks the same way as you!
Whining? Is that because I have an alternative view of this?
They know the starting salary when they join, why start the process if you are not happy with the wage?
I’m not convinced we are attracting the right calibre of people into the role if this is their behaviour, start and then hold the people to ransom.
I’m also concerned about the future implications of such a rise, but that doesn’t seem to be a consideration for you, which makes me question what you are basing your opinions on.
That's funny, the right calibre of people? What, happy to accept shit pay. Do you know how many nursing vacancies there are in England alone?
I base my opinions on both facts and experience.
You're completely ignoring the point that the starting salaries were and are known before these people started on their journeys.
When you go to uni, yes you know the salary ranges. They differ vastly between nhs and private. When you go to uni you are also aware that you can get a nursing job anywhere in the world (circumstances permitting). When you go to uni you are also aware that the salary will have increased by the time you get your degree and your registration. You are also aware that getting a good result in the nursing degree means you can go for a masters in a completely different field that pays better. This means the nhs starting salary for a newly qualified nurse means little to the student nurse. This means the govt should tempt the newly qualified nurse with a decent wage! "The salary means little but the Govt should pay more? | |||
Reply privately (closed, thread got too big) | |||
| |||
Reply privately (closed, thread got too big) | |||
"Don't knock them just yet, they are delivering Great British energy soon, that winter fuel payment will be replaced by super free state owned energy, employing hundreds of thousands of people, good times are coming. Don't forget, spending will not be the unmanaged on a whim kind of affair it must meet the tight fiscal rules! If there is no money there is no spending on anything other than junior doctors, rail workers and any other public sector workforce who wants an over inflation rise while the purse is open. We also have the luxury of 1.5 million new homes being built in our back gardens in the next few years. Excellent plan, get the private sector to pay for it, I can see this one flying and nothing going wrong such as poor workmanship and years of claims for substandard housing that will be blamed on builders who couldn't build enough houses in time. Happy days are only 4 years 9 months and 2 weeks away.
Omg change the bloody record about public sector pay!
No
So 14 years of either below inflation salary increases or zero increase, and you moan about one year of above inflation (which apart from junior doctors) doesn't touch the sides of what was lost. This had been part negotiated during strikes, hence was a "seemingly" generous increase by the review body. The review body of the then sitting tory pm (chief of said board). And yet you whine like a banshee about the Labour government who merely honoured it. Beggars bloody belief. I think it's also very selfish of any tax payer who thinks the same way as you!
Whining? Is that because I have an alternative view of this?
They know the starting salary when they join, why start the process if you are not happy with the wage?
I’m not convinced we are attracting the right calibre of people into the role if this is their behaviour, start and then hold the people to ransom.
I’m also concerned about the future implications of such a rise, but that doesn’t seem to be a consideration for you, which makes me question what you are basing your opinions on.
That's funny, the right calibre of people? What, happy to accept shit pay. Do you know how many nursing vacancies there are in England alone?
I base my opinions on both facts and experience.
You're completely ignoring the point that the starting salaries were and are known before these people started on their journeys.
When you go to uni, yes you know the salary ranges. They differ vastly between nhs and private. When you go to uni you are also aware that you can get a nursing job anywhere in the world (circumstances permitting). When you go to uni you are also aware that the salary will have increased by the time you get your degree and your registration. You are also aware that getting a good result in the nursing degree means you can go for a masters in a completely different field that pays better. This means the nhs starting salary for a newly qualified nurse means little to the student nurse. This means the govt should tempt the newly qualified nurse with a decent wage!
The salary means little but the Govt should pay more?
It means little due to choices available , but I have a feeling you realise that."Then get your degree and opt for the better choice. Don't take the 'worse' option and then fucking moan about it. We are talking about people who chose the NHS, not those who are currently thinking about their choices. | |||
Reply privately (closed, thread got too big) | |||
"Don't knock them just yet, they are delivering Great British energy soon, that winter fuel payment will be replaced by super free state owned energy, employing hundreds of thousands of people, good times are coming. Don't forget, spending will not be the unmanaged on a whim kind of affair it must meet the tight fiscal rules! If there is no money there is no spending on anything other than junior doctors, rail workers and any other public sector workforce who wants an over inflation rise while the purse is open. We also have the luxury of 1.5 million new homes being built in our back gardens in the next few years. Excellent plan, get the private sector to pay for it, I can see this one flying and nothing going wrong such as poor workmanship and years of claims for substandard housing that will be blamed on builders who couldn't build enough houses in time. Happy days are only 4 years 9 months and 2 weeks away.
Omg change the bloody record about public sector pay!
No
So 14 years of either below inflation salary increases or zero increase, and you moan about one year of above inflation (which apart from junior doctors) doesn't touch the sides of what was lost. This had been part negotiated during strikes, hence was a "seemingly" generous increase by the review body. The review body of the then sitting tory pm (chief of said board). And yet you whine like a banshee about the Labour government who merely honoured it. Beggars bloody belief. I think it's also very selfish of any tax payer who thinks the same way as you!
Whining? Is that because I have an alternative view of this?
They know the starting salary when they join, why start the process if you are not happy with the wage?
I’m not convinced we are attracting the right calibre of people into the role if this is their behaviour, start and then hold the people to ransom.
I’m also concerned about the future implications of such a rise, but that doesn’t seem to be a consideration for you, which makes me question what you are basing your opinions on.
That's funny, the right calibre of people? What, happy to accept shit pay. Do you know how many nursing vacancies there are in England alone?
I base my opinions on both facts and experience.
You're completely ignoring the point that the starting salaries were and are known before these people started on their journeys.
When you go to uni, yes you know the salary ranges. They differ vastly between nhs and private. When you go to uni you are also aware that you can get a nursing job anywhere in the world (circumstances permitting). When you go to uni you are also aware that the salary will have increased by the time you get your degree and your registration. You are also aware that getting a good result in the nursing degree means you can go for a masters in a completely different field that pays better. This means the nhs starting salary for a newly qualified nurse means little to the student nurse. This means the govt should tempt the newly qualified nurse with a decent wage!
The salary means little but the Govt should pay more? "The start of the journey is at least three years of uni education AND training, with plentiful potential options, so why would the starting salary mean much to the the student? It's irrelevant. | |||
Reply privately (closed, thread got too big) | |||
"Don't knock them just yet, they are delivering Great British energy soon, that winter fuel payment will be replaced by super free state owned energy, employing hundreds of thousands of people, good times are coming. Don't forget, spending will not be the unmanaged on a whim kind of affair it must meet the tight fiscal rules! If there is no money there is no spending on anything other than junior doctors, rail workers and any other public sector workforce who wants an over inflation rise while the purse is open. We also have the luxury of 1.5 million new homes being built in our back gardens in the next few years. Excellent plan, get the private sector to pay for it, I can see this one flying and nothing going wrong such as poor workmanship and years of claims for substandard housing that will be blamed on builders who couldn't build enough houses in time. Happy days are only 4 years 9 months and 2 weeks away.
Omg change the bloody record about public sector pay!
No
So 14 years of either below inflation salary increases or zero increase, and you moan about one year of above inflation (which apart from junior doctors) doesn't touch the sides of what was lost. This had been part negotiated during strikes, hence was a "seemingly" generous increase by the review body. The review body of the then sitting tory pm (chief of said board). And yet you whine like a banshee about the Labour government who merely honoured it. Beggars bloody belief. I think it's also very selfish of any tax payer who thinks the same way as you!
Whining? Is that because I have an alternative view of this?
They know the starting salary when they join, why start the process if you are not happy with the wage?
I’m not convinced we are attracting the right calibre of people into the role if this is their behaviour, start and then hold the people to ransom.
I’m also concerned about the future implications of such a rise, but that doesn’t seem to be a consideration for you, which makes me question what you are basing your opinions on.
That's funny, the right calibre of people? What, happy to accept shit pay. Do you know how many nursing vacancies there are in England alone?
I base my opinions on both facts and experience.
You're completely ignoring the point that the starting salaries were and are known before these people started on their journeys.
When you go to uni, yes you know the salary ranges. They differ vastly between nhs and private. When you go to uni you are also aware that you can get a nursing job anywhere in the world (circumstances permitting). When you go to uni you are also aware that the salary will have increased by the time you get your degree and your registration. You are also aware that getting a good result in the nursing degree means you can go for a masters in a completely different field that pays better. This means the nhs starting salary for a newly qualified nurse means little to the student nurse. This means the govt should tempt the newly qualified nurse with a decent wage!
The salary means little but the Govt should pay more?
It means little due to choices available , but I have a feeling you realise that.
Then get your degree and opt for the better choice.
Don't take the 'worse' option and then fucking moan about it.
We are talking about people who chose the NHS, not those who are currently thinking about their choices. "Ballshit, you stated start of their journey. The start is the training. | |||
Reply privately (closed, thread got too big) | |||
"Don't knock them just yet, they are delivering Great British energy soon, that winter fuel payment will be replaced by super free state owned energy, employing hundreds of thousands of people, good times are coming. Don't forget, spending will not be the unmanaged on a whim kind of affair it must meet the tight fiscal rules! If there is no money there is no spending on anything other than junior doctors, rail workers and any other public sector workforce who wants an over inflation rise while the purse is open. We also have the luxury of 1.5 million new homes being built in our back gardens in the next few years. Excellent plan, get the private sector to pay for it, I can see this one flying and nothing going wrong such as poor workmanship and years of claims for substandard housing that will be blamed on builders who couldn't build enough houses in time. Happy days are only 4 years 9 months and 2 weeks away.
Omg change the bloody record about public sector pay!
No
So 14 years of either below inflation salary increases or zero increase, and you moan about one year of above inflation (which apart from junior doctors) doesn't touch the sides of what was lost. This had been part negotiated during strikes, hence was a "seemingly" generous increase by the review body. The review body of the then sitting tory pm (chief of said board). And yet you whine like a banshee about the Labour government who merely honoured it. Beggars bloody belief. I think it's also very selfish of any tax payer who thinks the same way as you!
Whining? Is that because I have an alternative view of this?
They know the starting salary when they join, why start the process if you are not happy with the wage?
I’m not convinced we are attracting the right calibre of people into the role if this is their behaviour, start and then hold the people to ransom.
I’m also concerned about the future implications of such a rise, but that doesn’t seem to be a consideration for you, which makes me question what you are basing your opinions on.
That's funny, the right calibre of people? What, happy to accept shit pay. Do you know how many nursing vacancies there are in England alone?
I base my opinions on both facts and experience.
You're completely ignoring the point that the starting salaries were and are known before these people started on their journeys.
When you go to uni, yes you know the salary ranges. They differ vastly between nhs and private. When you go to uni you are also aware that you can get a nursing job anywhere in the world (circumstances permitting). When you go to uni you are also aware that the salary will have increased by the time you get your degree and your registration. You are also aware that getting a good result in the nursing degree means you can go for a masters in a completely different field that pays better. This means the nhs starting salary for a newly qualified nurse means little to the student nurse. This means the govt should tempt the newly qualified nurse with a decent wage!
The salary means little but the Govt should pay more?
It means little due to choices available , but I have a feeling you realise that.
Then get your degree and opt for the better choice.
Don't take the 'worse' option and then fucking moan about it.
We are talking about people who chose the NHS, not those who are currently thinking about their choices.
Ballshit, you stated start of their journey. The start is the training."Ball?  | |||
Reply privately (closed, thread got too big) | |||
"Don't knock them just yet, they are delivering Great British energy soon, that winter fuel payment will be replaced by super free state owned energy, employing hundreds of thousands of people, good times are coming. Don't forget, spending will not be the unmanaged on a whim kind of affair it must meet the tight fiscal rules! If there is no money there is no spending on anything other than junior doctors, rail workers and any other public sector workforce who wants an over inflation rise while the purse is open. We also have the luxury of 1.5 million new homes being built in our back gardens in the next few years. Excellent plan, get the private sector to pay for it, I can see this one flying and nothing going wrong such as poor workmanship and years of claims for substandard housing that will be blamed on builders who couldn't build enough houses in time. Happy days are only 4 years 9 months and 2 weeks away.
Omg change the bloody record about public sector pay!
No
So 14 years of either below inflation salary increases or zero increase, and you moan about one year of above inflation (which apart from junior doctors) doesn't touch the sides of what was lost. This had been part negotiated during strikes, hence was a "seemingly" generous increase by the review body. The review body of the then sitting tory pm (chief of said board). And yet you whine like a banshee about the Labour government who merely honoured it. Beggars bloody belief. I think it's also very selfish of any tax payer who thinks the same way as you!
Whining? Is that because I have an alternative view of this?
They know the starting salary when they join, why start the process if you are not happy with the wage?
I’m not convinced we are attracting the right calibre of people into the role if this is their behaviour, start and then hold the people to ransom.
I’m also concerned about the future implications of such a rise, but that doesn’t seem to be a consideration for you, which makes me question what you are basing your opinions on.
That's funny, the right calibre of people? What, happy to accept shit pay. Do you know how many nursing vacancies there are in England alone?
I base my opinions on both facts and experience.
You're completely ignoring the point that the starting salaries were and are known before these people started on their journeys.
When you go to uni, yes you know the salary ranges. They differ vastly between nhs and private. When you go to uni you are also aware that you can get a nursing job anywhere in the world (circumstances permitting). When you go to uni you are also aware that the salary will have increased by the time you get your degree and your registration. You are also aware that getting a good result in the nursing degree means you can go for a masters in a completely different field that pays better. This means the nhs starting salary for a newly qualified nurse means little to the student nurse. This means the govt should tempt the newly qualified nurse with a decent wage!
The salary means little but the Govt should pay more?
It means little due to choices available , but I have a feeling you realise that.
Then get your degree and opt for the better choice.
Don't take the 'worse' option and then fucking moan about it.
We are talking about people who chose the NHS, not those who are currently thinking about their choices.
Ballshit, you stated start of their journey. The start is the training."You'll do well to pick up on 'were known' (past tense) and people who have been striking (already qualified). I'm frankly astounded that you seem to think people looking at future careers and degrees don't want to know about salaries. | |||
Reply privately (closed, thread got too big) | |||
"Don't knock them just yet, they are delivering Great British energy soon, that winter fuel payment will be replaced by super free state owned energy, employing hundreds of thousands of people, good times are coming. Don't forget, spending will not be the unmanaged on a whim kind of affair it must meet the tight fiscal rules! If there is no money there is no spending on anything other than junior doctors, rail workers and any other public sector workforce who wants an over inflation rise while the purse is open. We also have the luxury of 1.5 million new homes being built in our back gardens in the next few years. Excellent plan, get the private sector to pay for it, I can see this one flying and nothing going wrong such as poor workmanship and years of claims for substandard housing that will be blamed on builders who couldn't build enough houses in time. Happy days are only 4 years 9 months and 2 weeks away.
Omg change the bloody record about public sector pay!
No
So 14 years of either below inflation salary increases or zero increase, and you moan about one year of above inflation (which apart from junior doctors) doesn't touch the sides of what was lost. This had been part negotiated during strikes, hence was a "seemingly" generous increase by the review body. The review body of the then sitting tory pm (chief of said board). And yet you whine like a banshee about the Labour government who merely honoured it. Beggars bloody belief. I think it's also very selfish of any tax payer who thinks the same way as you!
Whining? Is that because I have an alternative view of this?
They know the starting salary when they join, why start the process if you are not happy with the wage?
I’m not convinced we are attracting the right calibre of people into the role if this is their behaviour, start and then hold the people to ransom.
I’m also concerned about the future implications of such a rise, but that doesn’t seem to be a consideration for you, which makes me question what you are basing your opinions on.
That's funny, the right calibre of people? What, happy to accept shit pay. Do you know how many nursing vacancies there are in England alone?
I base my opinions on both facts and experience.
You're completely ignoring the point that the starting salaries were and are known before these people started on their journeys.
When you go to uni, yes you know the salary ranges. They differ vastly between nhs and private. When you go to uni you are also aware that you can get a nursing job anywhere in the world (circumstances permitting). When you go to uni you are also aware that the salary will have increased by the time you get your degree and your registration. You are also aware that getting a good result in the nursing degree means you can go for a masters in a completely different field that pays better. This means the nhs starting salary for a newly qualified nurse means little to the student nurse. This means the govt should tempt the newly qualified nurse with a decent wage!
The salary means little but the Govt should pay more?
It means little due to choices available , but I have a feeling you realise that.
Then get your degree and opt for the better choice.
Don't take the 'worse' option and then fucking moan about it.
We are talking about people who chose the NHS, not those who are currently thinking about their choices.
Ballshit, you stated start of their journey. The start is the training.
You'll do well to pick up on 'were known' (past tense) and people who have been striking (already qualified).
I'm frankly astounded that you seem to think people looking at future careers and degrees don't want to know about salaries. "Now that's not what I said | |||
Reply privately (closed, thread got too big) | |||
"Don't knock them just yet, they are delivering Great British energy soon, that winter fuel payment will be replaced by super free state owned energy, employing hundreds of thousands of people, good times are coming. Don't forget, spending will not be the unmanaged on a whim kind of affair it must meet the tight fiscal rules! If there is no money there is no spending on anything other than junior doctors, rail workers and any other public sector workforce who wants an over inflation rise while the purse is open. We also have the luxury of 1.5 million new homes being built in our back gardens in the next few years. Excellent plan, get the private sector to pay for it, I can see this one flying and nothing going wrong such as poor workmanship and years of claims for substandard housing that will be blamed on builders who couldn't build enough houses in time. Happy days are only 4 years 9 months and 2 weeks away.
Omg change the bloody record about public sector pay!
No
So 14 years of either below inflation salary increases or zero increase, and you moan about one year of above inflation (which apart from junior doctors) doesn't touch the sides of what was lost. This had been part negotiated during strikes, hence was a "seemingly" generous increase by the review body. The review body of the then sitting tory pm (chief of said board). And yet you whine like a banshee about the Labour government who merely honoured it. Beggars bloody belief. I think it's also very selfish of any tax payer who thinks the same way as you!
Whining? Is that because I have an alternative view of this?
They know the starting salary when they join, why start the process if you are not happy with the wage?
I’m not convinced we are attracting the right calibre of people into the role if this is their behaviour, start and then hold the people to ransom.
I’m also concerned about the future implications of such a rise, but that doesn’t seem to be a consideration for you, which makes me question what you are basing your opinions on.
That's funny, the right calibre of people? What, happy to accept shit pay. Do you know how many nursing vacancies there are in England alone?
I base my opinions on both facts and experience.
You're completely ignoring the point that the starting salaries were and are known before these people started on their journeys.
When you go to uni, yes you know the salary ranges. They differ vastly between nhs and private. When you go to uni you are also aware that you can get a nursing job anywhere in the world (circumstances permitting). When you go to uni you are also aware that the salary will have increased by the time you get your degree and your registration. You are also aware that getting a good result in the nursing degree means you can go for a masters in a completely different field that pays better. This means the nhs starting salary for a newly qualified nurse means little to the student nurse. This means the govt should tempt the newly qualified nurse with a decent wage!
The salary means little but the Govt should pay more?
It means little due to choices available , but I have a feeling you realise that.
Then get your degree and opt for the better choice.
Don't take the 'worse' option and then fucking moan about it.
We are talking about people who chose the NHS, not those who are currently thinking about their choices.
Ballshit, you stated start of their journey. The start is the training.
You'll do well to pick up on 'were known' (past tense) and people who have been striking (already qualified).
I'm frankly astounded that you seem to think people looking at future careers and degrees don't want to know about salaries.
Now that's not what I said "You definitely said "This means the nhs starting salary for a newly qualified nurse means little to the student nurse" | |||
Reply privately (closed, thread got too big) | |||
| |||
Reply privately (closed, thread got too big) | |||
"If you Labour lovers and lefty lunatics really think Labours fiscal policy of spending cuts and raising taxes is a good thing then you're crazy because doing that actually hinders economic growth" One in eight 24 to 35 year olds don't work rising to one in four for 50 to 65 year olds. The UK's productivity is lower than France and Germany. Both Labour and the Tories recognise these are some of the main issues holding back growth. Liz Truss thought reducing taxes for the better off would solve this, but apart from the Daily Mail no one agreed. Labour is about getting fairer pay and conditions for ordinary workers. A happy workforce means higher productivity. Also the huge waiting lists for medical treatment means some workers are signed off for months or years. Get these down helps growth. It's not just about cuts and tax. | |||
Reply privately (closed, thread got too big) | |||
"If you Labour lovers and lefty lunatics really think Labours fiscal policy of spending cuts and raising taxes is a good thing then you're crazy because doing that actually hinders economic growth One in eight 24 to 35 year olds don't work rising to one in four for 50 to 65 year olds. The UK's productivity is lower than France and Germany. Both Labour and the Tories recognise these are some of the main issues holding back growth. Liz Truss thought reducing taxes for the better off would solve this, but apart from the Daily Mail no one agreed. Labour is about getting fairer pay and conditions for ordinary workers. A happy workforce means higher productivity. Also the huge waiting lists for medical treatment means some workers are signed off for months or years. Get these down helps growth. It's not just about cuts and tax. " I'm not sure a 'happy' workforce necessarily means better productivity - workers are employed to do a job not be happy. The main difference between the UK and other major economies in my experience is our slowness to invest in innovation and automated processes. Several reasons for that - reliance on low cost, low skill labour, trade union Luddite attitudes, management dominated by accountants not tech. | |||
Reply privately (closed, thread got too big) | |||
"Don't knock them just yet, they are delivering Great British energy soon, that winter fuel payment will be replaced by super free state owned energy, employing hundreds of thousands of people, good times are coming. Don't forget, spending will not be the unmanaged on a whim kind of affair it must meet the tight fiscal rules! If there is no money there is no spending on anything other than junior doctors, rail workers and any other public sector workforce who wants an over inflation rise while the purse is open. We also have the luxury of 1.5 million new homes being built in our back gardens in the next few years. Excellent plan, get the private sector to pay for it, I can see this one flying and nothing going wrong such as poor workmanship and years of claims for substandard housing that will be blamed on builders who couldn't build enough houses in time. Happy days are only 4 years 9 months and 2 weeks away.
Omg change the bloody record about public sector pay!
No
So 14 years of either below inflation salary increases or zero increase, and you moan about one year of above inflation (which apart from junior doctors) doesn't touch the sides of what was lost. This had been part negotiated during strikes, hence was a "seemingly" generous increase by the review body. The review body of the then sitting tory pm (chief of said board). And yet you whine like a banshee about the Labour government who merely honoured it. Beggars bloody belief. I think it's also very selfish of any tax payer who thinks the same way as you!
Whining? Is that because I have an alternative view of this?
They know the starting salary when they join, why start the process if you are not happy with the wage?
I’m not convinced we are attracting the right calibre of people into the role if this is their behaviour, start and then hold the people to ransom.
I’m also concerned about the future implications of such a rise, but that doesn’t seem to be a consideration for you, which makes me question what you are basing your opinions on.
That's funny, the right calibre of people? What, happy to accept shit pay. Do you know how many nursing vacancies there are in England alone?
I base my opinions on both facts and experience.
You're completely ignoring the point that the starting salaries were and are known before these people started on their journeys.
When you go to uni, yes you know the salary ranges. They differ vastly between nhs and private. When you go to uni you are also aware that you can get a nursing job anywhere in the world (circumstances permitting). When you go to uni you are also aware that the salary will have increased by the time you get your degree and your registration. You are also aware that getting a good result in the nursing degree means you can go for a masters in a completely different field that pays better. This means the nhs starting salary for a newly qualified nurse means little to the student nurse. This means the govt should tempt the newly qualified nurse with a decent wage!
The salary means little but the Govt should pay more?
It means little due to choices available , but I have a feeling you realise that.
Then get your degree and opt for the better choice.
Don't take the 'worse' option and then fucking moan about it.
We are talking about people who chose the NHS, not those who are currently thinking about their choices.
Ballshit, you stated start of their journey. The start is the training.
You'll do well to pick up on 'were known' (past tense) and people who have been striking (already qualified).
I'm frankly astounded that you seem to think people looking at future careers and degrees don't want to know about salaries.
Now that's not what I said
You definitely said
"This means the nhs starting salary for a newly qualified nurse means little to the student nurse"
"If you want to cherry pick and take words out of context you go ahead but I also stated about being aware. lots of things can happen in three years. | |||
Reply privately (closed, thread got too big) | |||
"If you Labour lovers and lefty lunatics really think Labours fiscal policy of spending cuts and raising taxes is a good thing then you're crazy because doing that actually hinders economic growth One in eight 24 to 35 year olds don't work rising to one in four for 50 to 65 year olds. The UK's productivity is lower than France and Germany. Both Labour and the Tories recognise these are some of the main issues holding back growth. Liz Truss thought reducing taxes for the better off would solve this, but apart from the Daily Mail no one agreed. Labour is about getting fairer pay and conditions for ordinary workers. A happy workforce means higher productivity. Also the huge waiting lists for medical treatment means some workers are signed off for months or years. Get these down helps growth. " And some of these are HCPs which means a double whammy when vacancies for all depts are at an all time high. And the remaining staff are working until they burn out. But that's fine because a broken nhs just confirms whatever rhetoric the righteous righties are bleating at the time. | |||
Reply privately (closed, thread got too big) | |||
"If you Labour lovers and lefty lunatics really think Labours fiscal policy of spending cuts and raising taxes is a good thing then you're crazy because doing that actually hinders economic growth One in eight 24 to 35 year olds don't work rising to one in four for 50 to 65 year olds. The UK's productivity is lower than France and Germany. Both Labour and the Tories recognise these are some of the main issues holding back growth. Liz Truss thought reducing taxes for the better off would solve this, but apart from the Daily Mail no one agreed. Labour is about getting fairer pay and conditions for ordinary workers. A happy workforce means higher productivity. Also the huge waiting lists for medical treatment means some workers are signed off for months or years. Get these down helps growth. It's not just about cuts and tax. I'm not sure a 'happy' workforce necessarily means better productivity - workers are employed to do a job not be happy. The main difference between the UK and other major economies in my experience is our slowness to invest in innovation and automated processes. Several reasons for that - reliance on low cost, low skill labour, trade union Luddite attitudes, management dominated by accountants not tech. " Great, let's all go to work, be unhappy, burn out and be victims of a broken nhs. | |||
Reply privately (closed, thread got too big) | |||
"Don't knock them just yet, they are delivering Great British energy soon, that winter fuel payment will be replaced by super free state owned energy, employing hundreds of thousands of people, good times are coming. Don't forget, spending will not be the unmanaged on a whim kind of affair it must meet the tight fiscal rules! If there is no money there is no spending on anything other than junior doctors, rail workers and any other public sector workforce who wants an over inflation rise while the purse is open. We also have the luxury of 1.5 million new homes being built in our back gardens in the next few years. Excellent plan, get the private sector to pay for it, I can see this one flying and nothing going wrong such as poor workmanship and years of claims for substandard housing that will be blamed on builders who couldn't build enough houses in time. Happy days are only 4 years 9 months and 2 weeks away.
Omg change the bloody record about public sector pay!
No
So 14 years of either below inflation salary increases or zero increase, and you moan about one year of above inflation (which apart from junior doctors) doesn't touch the sides of what was lost. This had been part negotiated during strikes, hence was a "seemingly" generous increase by the review body. The review body of the then sitting tory pm (chief of said board). And yet you whine like a banshee about the Labour government who merely honoured it. Beggars bloody belief. I think it's also very selfish of any tax payer who thinks the same way as you!
Whining? Is that because I have an alternative view of this?
They know the starting salary when they join, why start the process if you are not happy with the wage?
I’m not convinced we are attracting the right calibre of people into the role if this is their behaviour, start and then hold the people to ransom.
I’m also concerned about the future implications of such a rise, but that doesn’t seem to be a consideration for you, which makes me question what you are basing your opinions on.
That's funny, the right calibre of people? What, happy to accept shit pay. Do you know how many nursing vacancies there are in England alone?
I base my opinions on both facts and experience.
You're completely ignoring the point that the starting salaries were and are known before these people started on their journeys.
When you go to uni, yes you know the salary ranges. They differ vastly between nhs and private. When you go to uni you are also aware that you can get a nursing job anywhere in the world (circumstances permitting). When you go to uni you are also aware that the salary will have increased by the time you get your degree and your registration. You are also aware that getting a good result in the nursing degree means you can go for a masters in a completely different field that pays better. This means the nhs starting salary for a newly qualified nurse means little to the student nurse. This means the govt should tempt the newly qualified nurse with a decent wage!
The salary means little but the Govt should pay more?
It means little due to choices available , but I have a feeling you realise that.
Then get your degree and opt for the better choice.
Don't take the 'worse' option and then fucking moan about it.
We are talking about people who chose the NHS, not those who are currently thinking about their choices.
Ballshit, you stated start of their journey. The start is the training.
You'll do well to pick up on 'were known' (past tense) and people who have been striking (already qualified).
I'm frankly astounded that you seem to think people looking at future careers and degrees don't want to know about salaries.
Now that's not what I said
You definitely said
"This means the nhs starting salary for a newly qualified nurse means little to the student nurse"
If you want to cherry pick and take words out of context you go ahead but I also stated about being aware. lots of things can happen in three years. "Cherry pick?? You said the salary had very little meaning yet are complaining the Govt don't pay enough. Either get a job outside of the NHS or or get a job inside the NHS, accepting the salary. You say there are plenty of options. No one is taking words out of context here. | |||
Reply privately (closed, thread got too big) | |||
"If you Labour lovers and lefty lunatics really think Labours fiscal policy of spending cuts and raising taxes is a good thing then you're crazy because doing that actually hinders economic growth One in eight 24 to 35 year olds don't work rising to one in four for 50 to 65 year olds. The UK's productivity is lower than France and Germany. Both Labour and the Tories recognise these are some of the main issues holding back growth. Liz Truss thought reducing taxes for the better off would solve this, but apart from the Daily Mail no one agreed. Labour is about getting fairer pay and conditions for ordinary workers. A happy workforce means higher productivity. Also the huge waiting lists for medical treatment means some workers are signed off for months or years. Get these down helps growth. It's not just about cuts and tax. I'm not sure a 'happy' workforce necessarily means better productivity - workers are employed to do a job not be happy. The main difference between the UK and other major economies in my experience is our slowness to invest in innovation and automated processes. Several reasons for that - reliance on low cost, low skill labour, trade union Luddite attitudes, management dominated by accountants not tech. Great, let's all go to work, be unhappy, burn out and be victims of a broken nhs." Nah let's all go to work and do the jobs we're paid for professionally and diligently. If you want to be happy go to the cinema later. | |||
Reply privately (closed, thread got too big) | |||
"Don't knock them just yet, they are delivering Great British energy soon, that winter fuel payment will be replaced by super free state owned energy, employing hundreds of thousands of people, good times are coming. Don't forget, spending will not be the unmanaged on a whim kind of affair it must meet the tight fiscal rules! If there is no money there is no spending on anything other than junior doctors, rail workers and any other public sector workforce who wants an over inflation rise while the purse is open. We also have the luxury of 1.5 million new homes being built in our back gardens in the next few years. Excellent plan, get the private sector to pay for it, I can see this one flying and nothing going wrong such as poor workmanship and years of claims for substandard housing that will be blamed on builders who couldn't build enough houses in time. Happy days are only 4 years 9 months and 2 weeks away.
Omg change the bloody record about public sector pay!
No
So 14 years of either below inflation salary increases or zero increase, and you moan about one year of above inflation (which apart from junior doctors) doesn't touch the sides of what was lost. This had been part negotiated during strikes, hence was a "seemingly" generous increase by the review body. The review body of the then sitting tory pm (chief of said board). And yet you whine like a banshee about the Labour government who merely honoured it. Beggars bloody belief. I think it's also very selfish of any tax payer who thinks the same way as you!
Whining? Is that because I have an alternative view of this?
They know the starting salary when they join, why start the process if you are not happy with the wage?
I’m not convinced we are attracting the right calibre of people into the role if this is their behaviour, start and then hold the people to ransom.
I’m also concerned about the future implications of such a rise, but that doesn’t seem to be a consideration for you, which makes me question what you are basing your opinions on.
That's funny, the right calibre of people? What, happy to accept shit pay. Do you know how many nursing vacancies there are in England alone?
I base my opinions on both facts and experience.
You're completely ignoring the point that the starting salaries were and are known before these people started on their journeys.
When you go to uni, yes you know the salary ranges. They differ vastly between nhs and private. When you go to uni you are also aware that you can get a nursing job anywhere in the world (circumstances permitting). When you go to uni you are also aware that the salary will have increased by the time you get your degree and your registration. You are also aware that getting a good result in the nursing degree means you can go for a masters in a completely different field that pays better. This means the nhs starting salary for a newly qualified nurse means little to the student nurse. This means the govt should tempt the newly qualified nurse with a decent wage!
The salary means little but the Govt should pay more?
It means little due to choices available , but I have a feeling you realise that.
Then get your degree and opt for the better choice.
Don't take the 'worse' option and then fucking moan about it.
We are talking about people who chose the NHS, not those who are currently thinking about their choices.
Ballshit, you stated start of their journey. The start is the training.
You'll do well to pick up on 'were known' (past tense) and people who have been striking (already qualified).
I'm frankly astounded that you seem to think people looking at future careers and degrees don't want to know about salaries.
Now that's not what I said
You definitely said
"This means the nhs starting salary for a newly qualified nurse means little to the student nurse"
If you want to cherry pick and take words out of context you go ahead but I also stated about being aware. lots of things can happen in three years.
Cherry pick??
You said the salary had very little meaning yet are complaining the Govt don't pay enough.
Either get a job outside of the NHS or or get a job inside the NHS, accepting the salary. You say there are plenty of options.
No one is taking words out of context here."I've explained as fully as I am able. You don't get it, ah well not to worry. I won't lose sleep over it  | |||
Reply privately (closed, thread got too big) | |||
"If you Labour lovers and lefty lunatics really think Labours fiscal policy of spending cuts and raising taxes is a good thing then you're crazy because doing that actually hinders economic growth One in eight 24 to 35 year olds don't work rising to one in four for 50 to 65 year olds. The UK's productivity is lower than France and Germany. Both Labour and the Tories recognise these are some of the main issues holding back growth. Liz Truss thought reducing taxes for the better off would solve this, but apart from the Daily Mail no one agreed. Labour is about getting fairer pay and conditions for ordinary workers. A happy workforce means higher productivity. Also the huge waiting lists for medical treatment means some workers are signed off for months or years. Get these down helps growth. It's not just about cuts and tax. I'm not sure a 'happy' workforce necessarily means better productivity - workers are employed to do a job not be happy. The main difference between the UK and other major economies in my experience is our slowness to invest in innovation and automated processes. Several reasons for that - reliance on low cost, low skill labour, trade union Luddite attitudes, management dominated by accountants not tech. Great, let's all go to work, be unhappy, burn out and be victims of a broken nhs. Nah let's all go to work and do the jobs we're paid for professionally and diligently. If you want to be happy go to the cinema later." Don't ever become a manager, cos you'd be a lousy one with that attitude. Well-being is a high priority that is looked at during supervision and appraisals. | |||
Reply privately (closed, thread got too big) | |||
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Reply privately (closed, thread got too big) | |||
"It is astonishing that people seem to believe that the public owe them a good salary, and the public should be grateful to uplift the salaries of junior doctors by huge amounts without question. The lack of economic awareness and a selfishness driven by megalomaniac unions and leaders is eating the NHS from inside out. Nobody forces another to take a role, they do out from their own interests and I would assume they thoroughly investigate the salary, hours, locations and opportunities before embarking on their career of choice. That was obviously an assumption on my part and I will say again, if our junior doctors entering the profession are not aware of the salary and opportunities, I would question their actual ability to be thorough enough as well as the calibre of the people applying, something doesn’t add up. This Labour government in one stroke of a pen just 26 days into office has created an issue that will be with us for years to come, the additional costs now added to the already overwhelming cost the NHS will destroy it. The pay off from Labour to the BMA was appalling, paying the union who had relentlessly brought the NHS to its knees impacting the most vulnerable in our society, the way the union walked out ahead of the election to remind people the tories were bad, they had nobody to negotiate with, we were being use as political lambs at the sacrifice, and Labour dug deep paying out £9 billion and blaming a black hole in finance that they had nearly 50% of a hand in. The leftist populists sucked it up, to the point I see the Labour big sell regurgitated word for word, what I don’t see is awareness of fact around the deficit, labours part in that or towards the way Labour are softening up for the big hits next month. I want any government we have to do well, if they don’t, I don’t! It makes sense to support, but already I’m seeing poor judgement and future hardship from a government that cares little for it later people. " Wow just wow. This attitude of public sector workers should not expect a good salary. Why because someone works in the public sector shouldn’t they be well paid? I’d argue a doctor makes a far bigger contribution than you (or I) yet I bet you are better paid (I certainly am)! I asked this on another thread but it went 178, so… Pretty sure you are a freelance “management” consultant (ie not doctor constant). Pretty sure (but could have this wrong) you work in the healthcare sector? Are you worth the money you are paid? Why? | |||
Reply privately (closed, thread got too big) | |||
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Reply privately (closed, thread got too big) | |||
"If you Labour lovers and lefty lunatics really think Labours fiscal policy of spending cuts and raising taxes is a good thing then you're crazy because doing that actually hinders economic growth One in eight 24 to 35 year olds don't work rising to one in four for 50 to 65 year olds. The UK's productivity is lower than France and Germany. Both Labour and the Tories recognise these are some of the main issues holding back growth. Liz Truss thought reducing taxes for the better off would solve this, but apart from the Daily Mail no one agreed. Labour is about getting fairer pay and conditions for ordinary workers. A happy workforce means higher productivity. Also the huge waiting lists for medical treatment means some workers are signed off for months or years. Get these down helps growth. It's not just about cuts and tax. I'm not sure a 'happy' workforce necessarily means better productivity - workers are employed to do a job not be happy. The main difference between the UK and other major economies in my experience is our slowness to invest in innovation and automated processes. Several reasons for that - reliance on low cost, low skill labour, trade union Luddite attitudes, management dominated by accountants not tech. Great, let's all go to work, be unhappy, burn out and be victims of a broken nhs. Nah let's all go to work and do the jobs we're paid for professionally and diligently. If you want to be happy go to the cinema later. Don't ever become a manager, cos you'd be a lousy one with that attitude. Well-being is a high priority that is looked at during supervision and appraisals." Ha! If only you knew, but thanks anyway for management advice   | |||
Reply privately (closed, thread got too big) | |||
"It is astonishing that people seem to believe that the public owe them a good salary, and the public should be grateful to uplift the salaries of junior doctors by huge amounts without question. The lack of economic awareness and a selfishness driven by megalomaniac unions and leaders is eating the NHS from inside out. Nobody forces another to take a role, they do out from their own interests and I would assume they thoroughly investigate the salary, hours, locations and opportunities before embarking on their career of choice. That was obviously an assumption on my part and I will say again, if our junior doctors entering the profession are not aware of the salary and opportunities, I would question their actual ability to be thorough enough as well as the calibre of the people applying, something doesn’t add up. This Labour government in one stroke of a pen just 26 days into office has created an issue that will be with us for years to come, the additional costs now added to the already overwhelming cost the NHS will destroy it. The pay off from Labour to the BMA was appalling, paying the union who had relentlessly brought the NHS to its knees impacting the most vulnerable in our society, the way the union walked out ahead of the election to remind people the tories were bad, they had nobody to negotiate with, we were being use as political lambs at the sacrifice, and Labour dug deep paying out £9 billion and blaming a black hole in finance that they had nearly 50% of a hand in. The leftist populists sucked it up, to the point I see the Labour big sell regurgitated word for word, what I don’t see is awareness of fact around the deficit, labours part in that or towards the way Labour are softening up for the big hits next month. I want any government we have to do well, if they don’t, I don’t! It makes sense to support, but already I’m seeing poor judgement and future hardship from a government that cares little for it later people. " Even I have an issue with the junior drs/BMA fiasco, and have stated it before. | |||
Reply privately (closed, thread got too big) | |||
"If you Labour lovers and lefty lunatics really think Labours fiscal policy of spending cuts and raising taxes is a good thing then you're crazy because doing that actually hinders economic growth One in eight 24 to 35 year olds don't work rising to one in four for 50 to 65 year olds. The UK's productivity is lower than France and Germany. Both Labour and the Tories recognise these are some of the main issues holding back growth. Liz Truss thought reducing taxes for the better off would solve this, but apart from the Daily Mail no one agreed. Labour is about getting fairer pay and conditions for ordinary workers. A happy workforce means higher productivity. Also the huge waiting lists for medical treatment means some workers are signed off for months or years. Get these down helps growth. It's not just about cuts and tax. I'm not sure a 'happy' workforce necessarily means better productivity - workers are employed to do a job not be happy. The main difference between the UK and other major economies in my experience is our slowness to invest in innovation and automated processes. Several reasons for that - reliance on low cost, low skill labour, trade union Luddite attitudes, management dominated by accountants not tech. Great, let's all go to work, be unhappy, burn out and be victims of a broken nhs. Nah let's all go to work and do the jobs we're paid for professionally and diligently. If you want to be happy go to the cinema later. Don't ever become a manager, cos you'd be a lousy one with that attitude. Well-being is a high priority that is looked at during supervision and appraisals. Ha! If only you knew, but thanks anyway for management advice "You're welcome, it was needed (management is part of the degree). | |||
Reply privately (closed, thread got too big) | |||
"It is astonishing that people seem to believe that the public owe them a good salary, and the public should be grateful to uplift the salaries of junior doctors by huge amounts without question. The lack of economic awareness and a selfishness driven by megalomaniac unions and leaders is eating the NHS from inside out. Nobody forces another to take a role, they do out from their own interests and I would assume they thoroughly investigate the salary, hours, locations and opportunities before embarking on their career of choice. That was obviously an assumption on my part and I will say again, if our junior doctors entering the profession are not aware of the salary and opportunities, I would question their actual ability to be thorough enough as well as the calibre of the people applying, something doesn’t add up. This Labour government in one stroke of a pen just 26 days into office has created an issue that will be with us for years to come, the additional costs now added to the already overwhelming cost the NHS will destroy it. The pay off from Labour to the BMA was appalling, paying the union who had relentlessly brought the NHS to its knees impacting the most vulnerable in our society, the way the union walked out ahead of the election to remind people the tories were bad, they had nobody to negotiate with, we were being use as political lambs at the sacrifice, and Labour dug deep paying out £9 billion and blaming a black hole in finance that they had nearly 50% of a hand in. The leftist populists sucked it up, to the point I see the Labour big sell regurgitated word for word, what I don’t see is awareness of fact around the deficit, labours part in that or towards the way Labour are softening up for the big hits next month. I want any government we have to do well, if they don’t, I don’t! It makes sense to support, but already I’m seeing poor judgement and future hardship from a government that cares little for it later people. Wow just wow. This attitude of public sector workers should not expect a good salary. Why because someone works in the public sector shouldn’t they be well paid? I’d argue a doctor makes a far bigger contribution than you (or I) yet I bet you are better paid (I certainly am)! I asked this on another thread but it went 178, so… Pretty sure you are a freelance “management” consultant (ie not doctor constant). Pretty sure (but could have this wrong) you work in the healthcare sector? Are you worth the money you are paid? Why? " M&A and that is as far as I would be willing to say. As for value I add, it is measured and rewarded accordingly as I provide a ROI. The above is neither here nor there when it comes to vocation, we all have choice and decisions to make. Junior doctors should know this when they enter their profession, it is sign posted, nothing is hidden. If career structure and salary is a shock, I wouldn't trust them with an aspirin. | |||
Reply privately (closed, thread got too big) | |||
"It is astonishing that people seem to believe that the public owe them a good salary, and the public should be grateful to uplift the salaries of junior doctors by huge amounts without question. The lack of economic awareness and a selfishness driven by megalomaniac unions and leaders is eating the NHS from inside out. Nobody forces another to take a role, they do out from their own interests and I would assume they thoroughly investigate the salary, hours, locations and opportunities before embarking on their career of choice. That was obviously an assumption on my part and I will say again, if our junior doctors entering the profession are not aware of the salary and opportunities, I would question their actual ability to be thorough enough as well as the calibre of the people applying, something doesn’t add up. This Labour government in one stroke of a pen just 26 days into office has created an issue that will be with us for years to come, the additional costs now added to the already overwhelming cost the NHS will destroy it. The pay off from Labour to the BMA was appalling, paying the union who had relentlessly brought the NHS to its knees impacting the most vulnerable in our society, the way the union walked out ahead of the election to remind people the tories were bad, they had nobody to negotiate with, we were being use as political lambs at the sacrifice, and Labour dug deep paying out £9 billion and blaming a black hole in finance that they had nearly 50% of a hand in. The leftist populists sucked it up, to the point I see the Labour big sell regurgitated word for word, what I don’t see is awareness of fact around the deficit, labours part in that or towards the way Labour are softening up for the big hits next month. I want any government we have to do well, if they don’t, I don’t! It makes sense to support, but already I’m seeing poor judgement and future hardship from a government that cares little for it later people. " Obesity, smoking diseases, drug and alcohol abusers cost the nhs £70bn annually (40% of nhs budget) on self inflicted heath problems. This is the elephant in the room | |||
Reply privately (closed, thread got too big) | |||
"It is astonishing that people seem to believe that the public owe them a good salary, and the public should be grateful to uplift the salaries of junior doctors by huge amounts without question. The lack of economic awareness and a selfishness driven by megalomaniac unions and leaders is eating the NHS from inside out. Nobody forces another to take a role, they do out from their own interests and I would assume they thoroughly investigate the salary, hours, locations and opportunities before embarking on their career of choice. That was obviously an assumption on my part and I will say again, if our junior doctors entering the profession are not aware of the salary and opportunities, I would question their actual ability to be thorough enough as well as the calibre of the people applying, something doesn’t add up. This Labour government in one stroke of a pen just 26 days into office has created an issue that will be with us for years to come, the additional costs now added to the already overwhelming cost the NHS will destroy it. The pay off from Labour to the BMA was appalling, paying the union who had relentlessly brought the NHS to its knees impacting the most vulnerable in our society, the way the union walked out ahead of the election to remind people the tories were bad, they had nobody to negotiate with, we were being use as political lambs at the sacrifice, and Labour dug deep paying out £9 billion and blaming a black hole in finance that they had nearly 50% of a hand in. The leftist populists sucked it up, to the point I see the Labour big sell regurgitated word for word, what I don’t see is awareness of fact around the deficit, labours part in that or towards the way Labour are softening up for the big hits next month. I want any government we have to do well, if they don’t, I don’t! It makes sense to support, but already I’m seeing poor judgement and future hardship from a government that cares little for it later people. Obesity, smoking diseases, drug and alcohol abusers cost the nhs £70bn annually (40% of nhs budget) on self inflicted heath problems. This is the elephant in the room " Obesity is a global health problem. | |||
Reply privately (closed, thread got too big) | |||
"It is astonishing that people seem to believe that the public owe them a good salary, and the public should be grateful to uplift the salaries of junior doctors by huge amounts without question. The lack of economic awareness and a selfishness driven by megalomaniac unions and leaders is eating the NHS from inside out. Nobody forces another to take a role, they do out from their own interests and I would assume they thoroughly investigate the salary, hours, locations and opportunities before embarking on their career of choice. That was obviously an assumption on my part and I will say again, if our junior doctors entering the profession are not aware of the salary and opportunities, I would question their actual ability to be thorough enough as well as the calibre of the people applying, something doesn’t add up. This Labour government in one stroke of a pen just 26 days into office has created an issue that will be with us for years to come, the additional costs now added to the already overwhelming cost the NHS will destroy it. The pay off from Labour to the BMA was appalling, paying the union who had relentlessly brought the NHS to its knees impacting the most vulnerable in our society, the way the union walked out ahead of the election to remind people the tories were bad, they had nobody to negotiate with, we were being use as political lambs at the sacrifice, and Labour dug deep paying out £9 billion and blaming a black hole in finance that they had nearly 50% of a hand in. The leftist populists sucked it up, to the point I see the Labour big sell regurgitated word for word, what I don’t see is awareness of fact around the deficit, labours part in that or towards the way Labour are softening up for the big hits next month. I want any government we have to do well, if they don’t, I don’t! It makes sense to support, but already I’m seeing poor judgement and future hardship from a government that cares little for it later people. Wow just wow. This attitude of public sector workers should not expect a good salary. Why because someone works in the public sector shouldn’t they be well paid? I’d argue a doctor makes a far bigger contribution than you (or I) yet I bet you are better paid (I certainly am)! I asked this on another thread but it went 178, so… Pretty sure you are a freelance “management” consultant (ie not doctor constant). Pretty sure (but could have this wrong) you work in the healthcare sector? Are you worth the money you are paid? Why? M&A and that is as far as I would be willing to say. As for value I add, it is measured and rewarded accordingly as I provide a ROI. The above is neither here nor there when it comes to vocation, we all have choice and decisions to make. Junior doctors should know this when they enter their profession, it is sign posted, nothing is hidden. If career structure and salary is a shock, I wouldn't trust them with an aspirin. " M&A now it all makes sense. Asset stripping and making small numbers of people rich
I love how now you try and shift the argument to doctors being a vocation and therefore should not expect to ever improve their remuneration package and T&Cs (if they did it would make NHS privatisation a bit harder and future M&A less attractive right?)
Of course everyone starting a new career/job knows what the base package is, but they also fairly expect do not endure pay freezes resulting in real term cuts.
I think the attitude that because someone works in the public sector they should be willing to accept whatever remuneration or T&Cs they get and never ask for more as that is ungrateful, is an awful stand point.
Can we assume that when you get ill or rushed into hospital you will be telling these greedy doctors what you think of them and lecturing on how they knew what they were signing up for? | |||
Reply privately (closed, thread got too big) | |||
| |||
Reply privately (closed, thread got too big) | |||
"It is astonishing that people seem to believe that the public owe them a good salary, and the public should be grateful to uplift the salaries of junior doctors by huge amounts without question. The lack of economic awareness and a selfishness driven by megalomaniac unions and leaders is eating the NHS from inside out. Nobody forces another to take a role, they do out from their own interests and I would assume they thoroughly investigate the salary, hours, locations and opportunities before embarking on their career of choice. That was obviously an assumption on my part and I will say again, if our junior doctors entering the profession are not aware of the salary and opportunities, I would question their actual ability to be thorough enough as well as the calibre of the people applying, something doesn’t add up. This Labour government in one stroke of a pen just 26 days into office has created an issue that will be with us for years to come, the additional costs now added to the already overwhelming cost the NHS will destroy it. The pay off from Labour to the BMA was appalling, paying the union who had relentlessly brought the NHS to its knees impacting the most vulnerable in our society, the way the union walked out ahead of the election to remind people the tories were bad, they had nobody to negotiate with, we were being use as political lambs at the sacrifice, and Labour dug deep paying out £9 billion and blaming a black hole in finance that they had nearly 50% of a hand in. The leftist populists sucked it up, to the point I see the Labour big sell regurgitated word for word, what I don’t see is awareness of fact around the deficit, labours part in that or towards the way Labour are softening up for the big hits next month. I want any government we have to do well, if they don’t, I don’t! It makes sense to support, but already I’m seeing poor judgement and future hardship from a government that cares little for it later people. Obesity, smoking diseases, drug and alcohol abusers cost the nhs £70bn annually (40% of nhs budget) on self inflicted heath problems. This is the elephant in the room Obesity is a global health problem." Tell that to the fat acceptance crowd | |||
Reply privately (closed, thread got too big) | |||
"It is astonishing that people seem to believe that the public owe them a good salary, and the public should be grateful to uplift the salaries of junior doctors by huge amounts without question. The lack of economic awareness and a selfishness driven by megalomaniac unions and leaders is eating the NHS from inside out. Nobody forces another to take a role, they do out from their own interests and I would assume they thoroughly investigate the salary, hours, locations and opportunities before embarking on their career of choice. That was obviously an assumption on my part and I will say again, if our junior doctors entering the profession are not aware of the salary and opportunities, I would question their actual ability to be thorough enough as well as the calibre of the people applying, something doesn’t add up. This Labour government in one stroke of a pen just 26 days into office has created an issue that will be with us for years to come, the additional costs now added to the already overwhelming cost the NHS will destroy it. The pay off from Labour to the BMA was appalling, paying the union who had relentlessly brought the NHS to its knees impacting the most vulnerable in our society, the way the union walked out ahead of the election to remind people the tories were bad, they had nobody to negotiate with, we were being use as political lambs at the sacrifice, and Labour dug deep paying out £9 billion and blaming a black hole in finance that they had nearly 50% of a hand in. The leftist populists sucked it up, to the point I see the Labour big sell regurgitated word for word, what I don’t see is awareness of fact around the deficit, labours part in that or towards the way Labour are softening up for the big hits next month. I want any government we have to do well, if they don’t, I don’t! It makes sense to support, but already I’m seeing poor judgement and future hardship from a government that cares little for it later people. Wow just wow. This attitude of public sector workers should not expect a good salary. Why because someone works in the public sector shouldn’t they be well paid? I’d argue a doctor makes a far bigger contribution than you (or I) yet I bet you are better paid (I certainly am)! I asked this on another thread but it went 178, so… Pretty sure you are a freelance “management” consultant (ie not doctor constant). Pretty sure (but could have this wrong) you work in the healthcare sector? Are you worth the money you are paid? Why? M&A and that is as far as I would be willing to say. As for value I add, it is measured and rewarded accordingly as I provide a ROI. The above is neither here nor there when it comes to vocation, we all have choice and decisions to make. Junior doctors should know this when they enter their profession, it is sign posted, nothing is hidden. If career structure and salary is a shock, I wouldn't trust them with an aspirin. M&A now it all makes sense. Asset stripping and making small numbers of people rich
I love how now you try and shift the argument to doctors being a vocation and therefore should not expect to ever improve their remuneration package and T&Cs (if they did it would make NHS privatisation a bit harder and future M&A less attractive right?)
Of course everyone starting a new career/job knows what the base package is, but they also fairly expect do not endure pay freezes resulting in real term cuts.
I think the attitude that because someone works in the public sector they should be willing to accept whatever remuneration or T&Cs they get and never ask for more as that is ungrateful, is an awful stand point.
Can we assume that when you get ill or rushed into hospital you will be telling these greedy doctors what you think of them and lecturing on how they knew what they were signing up for? "I haven't moved the focus of my argument, it remains the same, any person wanting to start training as a junior doctor knows the structure and pay before they start. The pay rise was too much and should have been at best half of what was given, the government overpaid, and although you believe this to be the right thing to do it is in my opinion bringing the NHS one step closer to its inevitable failure. | |||
Reply privately (closed, thread got too big) | |||
"It is astonishing that people seem to believe that the public owe them a good salary, and the public should be grateful to uplift the salaries of junior doctors by huge amounts without question. The lack of economic awareness and a selfishness driven by megalomaniac unions and leaders is eating the NHS from inside out. Nobody forces another to take a role, they do out from their own interests and I would assume they thoroughly investigate the salary, hours, locations and opportunities before embarking on their career of choice. That was obviously an assumption on my part and I will say again, if our junior doctors entering the profession are not aware of the salary and opportunities, I would question their actual ability to be thorough enough as well as the calibre of the people applying, something doesn’t add up. This Labour government in one stroke of a pen just 26 days into office has created an issue that will be with us for years to come, the additional costs now added to the already overwhelming cost the NHS will destroy it. The pay off from Labour to the BMA was appalling, paying the union who had relentlessly brought the NHS to its knees impacting the most vulnerable in our society, the way the union walked out ahead of the election to remind people the tories were bad, they had nobody to negotiate with, we were being use as political lambs at the sacrifice, and Labour dug deep paying out £9 billion and blaming a black hole in finance that they had nearly 50% of a hand in. The leftist populists sucked it up, to the point I see the Labour big sell regurgitated word for word, what I don’t see is awareness of fact around the deficit, labours part in that or towards the way Labour are softening up for the big hits next month. I want any government we have to do well, if they don’t, I don’t! It makes sense to support, but already I’m seeing poor judgement and future hardship from a government that cares little for it later people. Obesity, smoking diseases, drug and alcohol abusers cost the nhs £70bn annually (40% of nhs budget) on self inflicted heath problems. This is the elephant in the room Obesity is a global health problem. Tell that to the fat acceptance crowd " I'm telling whomsoever reads my post
The causes of obesity are many. It is much more complex than one forum member claiming it's self inflicted. | |||
Reply privately (closed, thread got too big) | |||
"It is astonishing that people seem to believe that the public owe them a good salary, and the public should be grateful to uplift the salaries of junior doctors by huge amounts without question. The lack of economic awareness and a selfishness driven by megalomaniac unions and leaders is eating the NHS from inside out. Nobody forces another to take a role, they do out from their own interests and I would assume they thoroughly investigate the salary, hours, locations and opportunities before embarking on their career of choice. That was obviously an assumption on my part and I will say again, if our junior doctors entering the profession are not aware of the salary and opportunities, I would question their actual ability to be thorough enough as well as the calibre of the people applying, something doesn’t add up. This Labour government in one stroke of a pen just 26 days into office has created an issue that will be with us for years to come, the additional costs now added to the already overwhelming cost the NHS will destroy it. The pay off from Labour to the BMA was appalling, paying the union who had relentlessly brought the NHS to its knees impacting the most vulnerable in our society, the way the union walked out ahead of the election to remind people the tories were bad, they had nobody to negotiate with, we were being use as political lambs at the sacrifice, and Labour dug deep paying out £9 billion and blaming a black hole in finance that they had nearly 50% of a hand in. The leftist populists sucked it up, to the point I see the Labour big sell regurgitated word for word, what I don’t see is awareness of fact around the deficit, labours part in that or towards the way Labour are softening up for the big hits next month. I want any government we have to do well, if they don’t, I don’t! It makes sense to support, but already I’m seeing poor judgement and future hardship from a government that cares little for it later people. Obesity, smoking diseases, drug and alcohol abusers cost the nhs £70bn annually (40% of nhs budget) on self inflicted heath problems. This is the elephant in the room Obesity is a global health problem. Tell that to the fat acceptance crowd I'm telling whomsoever reads my post
The causes of obesity are many. It is much more complex than one forum member claiming it's self inflicted."perhaps we are getting a bit off topic, the new government could bring in legislation about food & drink labeling & marketing ? | |||
Reply privately (closed, thread got too big) | |||
"It is astonishing that people seem to believe that the public owe them a good salary, and the public should be grateful to uplift the salaries of junior doctors by huge amounts without question. The lack of economic awareness and a selfishness driven by megalomaniac unions and leaders is eating the NHS from inside out. Nobody forces another to take a role, they do out from their own interests and I would assume they thoroughly investigate the salary, hours, locations and opportunities before embarking on their career of choice. That was obviously an assumption on my part and I will say again, if our junior doctors entering the profession are not aware of the salary and opportunities, I would question their actual ability to be thorough enough as well as the calibre of the people applying, something doesn’t add up. This Labour government in one stroke of a pen just 26 days into office has created an issue that will be with us for years to come, the additional costs now added to the already overwhelming cost the NHS will destroy it. The pay off from Labour to the BMA was appalling, paying the union who had relentlessly brought the NHS to its knees impacting the most vulnerable in our society, the way the union walked out ahead of the election to remind people the tories were bad, they had nobody to negotiate with, we were being use as political lambs at the sacrifice, and Labour dug deep paying out £9 billion and blaming a black hole in finance that they had nearly 50% of a hand in. The leftist populists sucked it up, to the point I see the Labour big sell regurgitated word for word, what I don’t see is awareness of fact around the deficit, labours part in that or towards the way Labour are softening up for the big hits next month. I want any government we have to do well, if they don’t, I don’t! It makes sense to support, but already I’m seeing poor judgement and future hardship from a government that cares little for it later people. Obesity, smoking diseases, drug and alcohol abusers cost the nhs £70bn annually (40% of nhs budget) on self inflicted heath problems. This is the elephant in the room Obesity is a global health problem. Tell that to the fat acceptance crowd I'm telling whomsoever reads my post
The causes of obesity are many. It is much more complex than one forum member claiming it's self inflicted.
perhaps we are getting a bit off topic, the new government could bring in legislation about food & drink labeling & marketing ? "What more are you thinking, than we have already? Perhaps we could have warnings like on cigarette packets, the danger of processed foods on the heart. | |||
Reply privately (closed, thread got too big) | |||
"It is astonishing that people seem to believe that the public owe them a good salary, and the public should be grateful to uplift the salaries of junior doctors by huge amounts without question. The lack of economic awareness and a selfishness driven by megalomaniac unions and leaders is eating the NHS from inside out. Nobody forces another to take a role, they do out from their own interests and I would assume they thoroughly investigate the salary, hours, locations and opportunities before embarking on their career of choice. That was obviously an assumption on my part and I will say again, if our junior doctors entering the profession are not aware of the salary and opportunities, I would question their actual ability to be thorough enough as well as the calibre of the people applying, something doesn’t add up. This Labour government in one stroke of a pen just 26 days into office has created an issue that will be with us for years to come, the additional costs now added to the already overwhelming cost the NHS will destroy it. The pay off from Labour to the BMA was appalling, paying the union who had relentlessly brought the NHS to its knees impacting the most vulnerable in our society, the way the union walked out ahead of the election to remind people the tories were bad, they had nobody to negotiate with, we were being use as political lambs at the sacrifice, and Labour dug deep paying out £9 billion and blaming a black hole in finance that they had nearly 50% of a hand in. The leftist populists sucked it up, to the point I see the Labour big sell regurgitated word for word, what I don’t see is awareness of fact around the deficit, labours part in that or towards the way Labour are softening up for the big hits next month. I want any government we have to do well, if they don’t, I don’t! It makes sense to support, but already I’m seeing poor judgement and future hardship from a government that cares little for it later people. Wow just wow. This attitude of public sector workers should not expect a good salary. Why because someone works in the public sector shouldn’t they be well paid? I’d argue a doctor makes a far bigger contribution than you (or I) yet I bet you are better paid (I certainly am)! I asked this on another thread but it went 178, so… Pretty sure you are a freelance “management” consultant (ie not doctor constant). Pretty sure (but could have this wrong) you work in the healthcare sector? Are you worth the money you are paid? Why? M&A and that is as far as I would be willing to say. As for value I add, it is measured and rewarded accordingly as I provide a ROI. The above is neither here nor there when it comes to vocation, we all have choice and decisions to make. Junior doctors should know this when they enter their profession, it is sign posted, nothing is hidden. If career structure and salary is a shock, I wouldn't trust them with an aspirin. M&A now it all makes sense. Asset stripping and making small numbers of people rich
I love how now you try and shift the argument to doctors being a vocation and therefore should not expect to ever improve their remuneration package and T&Cs (if they did it would make NHS privatisation a bit harder and future M&A less attractive right?)
Of course everyone starting a new career/job knows what the base package is, but they also fairly expect do not endure pay freezes resulting in real term cuts.
I think the attitude that because someone works in the public sector they should be willing to accept whatever remuneration or T&Cs they get and never ask for more as that is ungrateful, is an awful stand point.
Can we assume that when you get ill or rushed into hospital you will be telling these greedy doctors what you think of them and lecturing on how they knew what they were signing up for?
I haven't moved the focus of my argument, it remains the same, any person wanting to start training as a junior doctor knows the structure and pay before they start. The pay rise was too much and should have been at best half of what was given, the government overpaid, and although you believe this to be the right thing to do it is in my opinion bringing the NHS one step closer to its inevitable failure.
"On the surface the rise is generous but you cannot look at it in isolation from the historical (in)action that took place in the years leading up to this point. Is it not reasonable to expect pay to keep pace with inflation? Is it not reasonable to expect to be no worse off 5 years into your career? | |||
Reply privately (closed, thread got too big) | |||
"It is astonishing that people seem to believe that the public owe them a good salary, and the public should be grateful to uplift the salaries of junior doctors by huge amounts without question. The lack of economic awareness and a selfishness driven by megalomaniac unions and leaders is eating the NHS from inside out. Nobody forces another to take a role, they do out from their own interests and I would assume they thoroughly investigate the salary, hours, locations and opportunities before embarking on their career of choice. That was obviously an assumption on my part and I will say again, if our junior doctors entering the profession are not aware of the salary and opportunities, I would question their actual ability to be thorough enough as well as the calibre of the people applying, something doesn’t add up. This Labour government in one stroke of a pen just 26 days into office has created an issue that will be with us for years to come, the additional costs now added to the already overwhelming cost the NHS will destroy it. The pay off from Labour to the BMA was appalling, paying the union who had relentlessly brought the NHS to its knees impacting the most vulnerable in our society, the way the union walked out ahead of the election to remind people the tories were bad, they had nobody to negotiate with, we were being use as political lambs at the sacrifice, and Labour dug deep paying out £9 billion and blaming a black hole in finance that they had nearly 50% of a hand in. The leftist populists sucked it up, to the point I see the Labour big sell regurgitated word for word, what I don’t see is awareness of fact around the deficit, labours part in that or towards the way Labour are softening up for the big hits next month. I want any government we have to do well, if they don’t, I don’t! It makes sense to support, but already I’m seeing poor judgement and future hardship from a government that cares little for it later people. Wow just wow. This attitude of public sector workers should not expect a good salary. Why because someone works in the public sector shouldn’t they be well paid? I’d argue a doctor makes a far bigger contribution than you (or I) yet I bet you are better paid (I certainly am)! I asked this on another thread but it went 178, so… Pretty sure you are a freelance “management” consultant (ie not doctor constant). Pretty sure (but could have this wrong) you work in the healthcare sector? Are you worth the money you are paid? Why? M&A and that is as far as I would be willing to say. As for value I add, it is measured and rewarded accordingly as I provide a ROI. The above is neither here nor there when it comes to vocation, we all have choice and decisions to make. Junior doctors should know this when they enter their profession, it is sign posted, nothing is hidden. If career structure and salary is a shock, I wouldn't trust them with an aspirin. M&A now it all makes sense. Asset stripping and making small numbers of people rich
I love how now you try and shift the argument to doctors being a vocation and therefore should not expect to ever improve their remuneration package and T&Cs (if they did it would make NHS privatisation a bit harder and future M&A less attractive right?)
Of course everyone starting a new career/job knows what the base package is, but they also fairly expect do not endure pay freezes resulting in real term cuts.
I think the attitude that because someone works in the public sector they should be willing to accept whatever remuneration or T&Cs they get and never ask for more as that is ungrateful, is an awful stand point.
Can we assume that when you get ill or rushed into hospital you will be telling these greedy doctors what you think of them and lecturing on how they knew what they were signing up for?
I haven't moved the focus of my argument, it remains the same, any person wanting to start training as a junior doctor knows the structure and pay before they start. The pay rise was too much and should have been at best half of what was given, the government overpaid, and although you believe this to be the right thing to do it is in my opinion bringing the NHS one step closer to its inevitable failure.
On the surface the rise is generous but you cannot look at it in isolation from the historical (in)action that took place in the years leading up to this point. Is it not reasonable to expect pay to keep pace with inflation? Is it not reasonable to expect to be no worse off 5 years into your career?"Not one single junior doctor would be worse off at year 5. The negotiations were not thorough enough and will leave the NHS vulnerable to less funding going forward. | |||
Reply privately (closed, thread got too big) | |||
"It is astonishing that people seem to believe that the public owe them a good salary, and the public should be grateful to uplift the salaries of junior doctors by huge amounts without question. The lack of economic awareness and a selfishness driven by megalomaniac unions and leaders is eating the NHS from inside out. Nobody forces another to take a role, they do out from their own interests and I would assume they thoroughly investigate the salary, hours, locations and opportunities before embarking on their career of choice. That was obviously an assumption on my part and I will say again, if our junior doctors entering the profession are not aware of the salary and opportunities, I would question their actual ability to be thorough enough as well as the calibre of the people applying, something doesn’t add up. This Labour government in one stroke of a pen just 26 days into office has created an issue that will be with us for years to come, the additional costs now added to the already overwhelming cost the NHS will destroy it. The pay off from Labour to the BMA was appalling, paying the union who had relentlessly brought the NHS to its knees impacting the most vulnerable in our society, the way the union walked out ahead of the election to remind people the tories were bad, they had nobody to negotiate with, we were being use as political lambs at the sacrifice, and Labour dug deep paying out £9 billion and blaming a black hole in finance that they had nearly 50% of a hand in. The leftist populists sucked it up, to the point I see the Labour big sell regurgitated word for word, what I don’t see is awareness of fact around the deficit, labours part in that or towards the way Labour are softening up for the big hits next month. I want any government we have to do well, if they don’t, I don’t! It makes sense to support, but already I’m seeing poor judgement and future hardship from a government that cares little for it later people. Wow just wow. This attitude of public sector workers should not expect a good salary. Why because someone works in the public sector shouldn’t they be well paid? I’d argue a doctor makes a far bigger contribution than you (or I) yet I bet you are better paid (I certainly am)! I asked this on another thread but it went 178, so… Pretty sure you are a freelance “management” consultant (ie not doctor constant). Pretty sure (but could have this wrong) you work in the healthcare sector? Are you worth the money you are paid? Why? M&A and that is as far as I would be willing to say. As for value I add, it is measured and rewarded accordingly as I provide a ROI. The above is neither here nor there when it comes to vocation, we all have choice and decisions to make. Junior doctors should know this when they enter their profession, it is sign posted, nothing is hidden. If career structure and salary is a shock, I wouldn't trust them with an aspirin. M&A now it all makes sense. Asset stripping and making small numbers of people rich
I love how now you try and shift the argument to doctors being a vocation and therefore should not expect to ever improve their remuneration package and T&Cs (if they did it would make NHS privatisation a bit harder and future M&A less attractive right?)
Of course everyone starting a new career/job knows what the base package is, but they also fairly expect do not endure pay freezes resulting in real term cuts.
I think the attitude that because someone works in the public sector they should be willing to accept whatever remuneration or T&Cs they get and never ask for more as that is ungrateful, is an awful stand point.
Can we assume that when you get ill or rushed into hospital you will be telling these greedy doctors what you think of them and lecturing on how they knew what they were signing up for?
I haven't moved the focus of my argument, it remains the same, any person wanting to start training as a junior doctor knows the structure and pay before they start. The pay rise was too much and should have been at best half of what was given, the government overpaid, and although you believe this to be the right thing to do it is in my opinion bringing the NHS one step closer to its inevitable failure.
On the surface the rise is generous but you cannot look at it in isolation from the historical (in)action that took place in the years leading up to this point. Is it not reasonable to expect pay to keep pace with inflation? Is it not reasonable to expect to be no worse off 5 years into your career?
Not one single junior doctor would be worse off at year 5.
The negotiations were not thorough enough and will leave the NHS vulnerable to less funding going forward."BTW I plucked year 5 out of the air. It could be any time frame. Are you saying below inflation pay rises and pay freezes have no effect during a period of growing inflation? | |||
Reply privately (closed, thread got too big) | |||
"It is astonishing that people seem to believe that the public owe them a good salary, and the public should be grateful to uplift the salaries of junior doctors by huge amounts without question. The lack of economic awareness and a selfishness driven by megalomaniac unions and leaders is eating the NHS from inside out. Nobody forces another to take a role, they do out from their own interests and I would assume they thoroughly investigate the salary, hours, locations and opportunities before embarking on their career of choice. That was obviously an assumption on my part and I will say again, if our junior doctors entering the profession are not aware of the salary and opportunities, I would question their actual ability to be thorough enough as well as the calibre of the people applying, something doesn’t add up. This Labour government in one stroke of a pen just 26 days into office has created an issue that will be with us for years to come, the additional costs now added to the already overwhelming cost the NHS will destroy it. The pay off from Labour to the BMA was appalling, paying the union who had relentlessly brought the NHS to its knees impacting the most vulnerable in our society, the way the union walked out ahead of the election to remind people the tories were bad, they had nobody to negotiate with, we were being use as political lambs at the sacrifice, and Labour dug deep paying out £9 billion and blaming a black hole in finance that they had nearly 50% of a hand in. The leftist populists sucked it up, to the point I see the Labour big sell regurgitated word for word, what I don’t see is awareness of fact around the deficit, labours part in that or towards the way Labour are softening up for the big hits next month. I want any government we have to do well, if they don’t, I don’t! It makes sense to support, but already I’m seeing poor judgement and future hardship from a government that cares little for it later people. Wow just wow. This attitude of public sector workers should not expect a good salary. Why because someone works in the public sector shouldn’t they be well paid? I’d argue a doctor makes a far bigger contribution than you (or I) yet I bet you are better paid (I certainly am)! I asked this on another thread but it went 178, so… Pretty sure you are a freelance “management” consultant (ie not doctor constant). Pretty sure (but could have this wrong) you work in the healthcare sector? Are you worth the money you are paid? Why? M&A and that is as far as I would be willing to say. As for value I add, it is measured and rewarded accordingly as I provide a ROI. The above is neither here nor there when it comes to vocation, we all have choice and decisions to make. Junior doctors should know this when they enter their profession, it is sign posted, nothing is hidden. If career structure and salary is a shock, I wouldn't trust them with an aspirin. M&A now it all makes sense. Asset stripping and making small numbers of people rich
I love how now you try and shift the argument to doctors being a vocation and therefore should not expect to ever improve their remuneration package and T&Cs (if they did it would make NHS privatisation a bit harder and future M&A less attractive right?)
Of course everyone starting a new career/job knows what the base package is, but they also fairly expect do not endure pay freezes resulting in real term cuts.
I think the attitude that because someone works in the public sector they should be willing to accept whatever remuneration or T&Cs they get and never ask for more as that is ungrateful, is an awful stand point.
Can we assume that when you get ill or rushed into hospital you will be telling these greedy doctors what you think of them and lecturing on how they knew what they were signing up for?
I haven't moved the focus of my argument, it remains the same, any person wanting to start training as a junior doctor knows the structure and pay before they start. The pay rise was too much and should have been at best half of what was given, the government overpaid, and although you believe this to be the right thing to do it is in my opinion bringing the NHS one step closer to its inevitable failure.
On the surface the rise is generous but you cannot look at it in isolation from the historical (in)action that took place in the years leading up to this point. Is it not reasonable to expect pay to keep pace with inflation? Is it not reasonable to expect to be no worse off 5 years into your career?
Not one single junior doctor would be worse off at year 5.
The negotiations were not thorough enough and will leave the NHS vulnerable to less funding going forward.
BTW I plucked year 5 out of the air. It could be any time frame.
Are you saying below inflation pay rises and pay freezes have no effect during a period of growing inflation?"the structure junior doctors work in, means they are always going above inflation as they progress through already agreed increments. Which takes me back to the negotiations being problematic to the future of the NHS funding and other opportunities have been missed. | |||
Reply privately (closed, thread got too big) | |||
"It is astonishing that people seem to believe that the public owe them a good salary, and the public should be grateful to uplift the salaries of junior doctors by huge amounts without question. The lack of economic awareness and a selfishness driven by megalomaniac unions and leaders is eating the NHS from inside out. Nobody forces another to take a role, they do out from their own interests and I would assume they thoroughly investigate the salary, hours, locations and opportunities before embarking on their career of choice. That was obviously an assumption on my part and I will say again, if our junior doctors entering the profession are not aware of the salary and opportunities, I would question their actual ability to be thorough enough as well as the calibre of the people applying, something doesn’t add up. This Labour government in one stroke of a pen just 26 days into office has created an issue that will be with us for years to come, the additional costs now added to the already overwhelming cost the NHS will destroy it. The pay off from Labour to the BMA was appalling, paying the union who had relentlessly brought the NHS to its knees impacting the most vulnerable in our society, the way the union walked out ahead of the election to remind people the tories were bad, they had nobody to negotiate with, we were being use as political lambs at the sacrifice, and Labour dug deep paying out £9 billion and blaming a black hole in finance that they had nearly 50% of a hand in. The leftist populists sucked it up, to the point I see the Labour big sell regurgitated word for word, what I don’t see is awareness of fact around the deficit, labours part in that or towards the way Labour are softening up for the big hits next month. I want any government we have to do well, if they don’t, I don’t! It makes sense to support, but already I’m seeing poor judgement and future hardship from a government that cares little for it later people. Wow just wow. This attitude of public sector workers should not expect a good salary. Why because someone works in the public sector shouldn’t they be well paid? I’d argue a doctor makes a far bigger contribution than you (or I) yet I bet you are better paid (I certainly am)! I asked this on another thread but it went 178, so… Pretty sure you are a freelance “management” consultant (ie not doctor constant). Pretty sure (but could have this wrong) you work in the healthcare sector? Are you worth the money you are paid? Why? M&A and that is as far as I would be willing to say. As for value I add, it is measured and rewarded accordingly as I provide a ROI. The above is neither here nor there when it comes to vocation, we all have choice and decisions to make. Junior doctors should know this when they enter their profession, it is sign posted, nothing is hidden. If career structure and salary is a shock, I wouldn't trust them with an aspirin. M&A now it all makes sense. Asset stripping and making small numbers of people rich
I love how now you try and shift the argument to doctors being a vocation and therefore should not expect to ever improve their remuneration package and T&Cs (if they did it would make NHS privatisation a bit harder and future M&A less attractive right?)
Of course everyone starting a new career/job knows what the base package is, but they also fairly expect do not endure pay freezes resulting in real term cuts.
I think the attitude that because someone works in the public sector they should be willing to accept whatever remuneration or T&Cs they get and never ask for more as that is ungrateful, is an awful stand point.
Can we assume that when you get ill or rushed into hospital you will be telling these greedy doctors what you think of them and lecturing on how they knew what they were signing up for?
I haven't moved the focus of my argument, it remains the same, any person wanting to start training as a junior doctor knows the structure and pay before they start. The pay rise was too much and should have been at best half of what was given, the government overpaid, and although you believe this to be the right thing to do it is in my opinion bringing the NHS one step closer to its inevitable failure.
On the surface the rise is generous but you cannot look at it in isolation from the historical (in)action that took place in the years leading up to this point. Is it not reasonable to expect pay to keep pace with inflation? Is it not reasonable to expect to be no worse off 5 years into your career?
Not one single junior doctor would be worse off at year 5.
The negotiations were not thorough enough and will leave the NHS vulnerable to less funding going forward.
BTW I plucked year 5 out of the air. It could be any time frame.
Are you saying below inflation pay rises and pay freezes have no effect during a period of growing inflation?
the structure junior doctors work in, means they are always going above inflation as they progress through already agreed increments.
Which takes me back to the negotiations being problematic to the future of the NHS funding and other opportunities have been missed. "The BMA says that junior doctors’ pay in England has fallen by 26 per cent since 2008/09, once you account for inflation. But the independent Institute for Fiscal Studies (IFS) think tank says a more accurate figure would be an 11 to 16 per cent fall since 2010. | |||
Reply privately (closed, thread got too big) | |||
"It is astonishing that people seem to believe that the public owe them a good salary, and the public should be grateful to uplift the salaries of junior doctors by huge amounts without question. The lack of economic awareness and a selfishness driven by megalomaniac unions and leaders is eating the NHS from inside out. Nobody forces another to take a role, they do out from their own interests and I would assume they thoroughly investigate the salary, hours, locations and opportunities before embarking on their career of choice. That was obviously an assumption on my part and I will say again, if our junior doctors entering the profession are not aware of the salary and opportunities, I would question their actual ability to be thorough enough as well as the calibre of the people applying, something doesn’t add up. This Labour government in one stroke of a pen just 26 days into office has created an issue that will be with us for years to come, the additional costs now added to the already overwhelming cost the NHS will destroy it. The pay off from Labour to the BMA was appalling, paying the union who had relentlessly brought the NHS to its knees impacting the most vulnerable in our society, the way the union walked out ahead of the election to remind people the tories were bad, they had nobody to negotiate with, we were being use as political lambs at the sacrifice, and Labour dug deep paying out £9 billion and blaming a black hole in finance that they had nearly 50% of a hand in. The leftist populists sucked it up, to the point I see the Labour big sell regurgitated word for word, what I don’t see is awareness of fact around the deficit, labours part in that or towards the way Labour are softening up for the big hits next month. I want any government we have to do well, if they don’t, I don’t! It makes sense to support, but already I’m seeing poor judgement and future hardship from a government that cares little for it later people. Wow just wow. This attitude of public sector workers should not expect a good salary. Why because someone works in the public sector shouldn’t they be well paid? I’d argue a doctor makes a far bigger contribution than you (or I) yet I bet you are better paid (I certainly am)! I asked this on another thread but it went 178, so… Pretty sure you are a freelance “management” consultant (ie not doctor constant). Pretty sure (but could have this wrong) you work in the healthcare sector? Are you worth the money you are paid? Why? M&A and that is as far as I would be willing to say. As for value I add, it is measured and rewarded accordingly as I provide a ROI. The above is neither here nor there when it comes to vocation, we all have choice and decisions to make. Junior doctors should know this when they enter their profession, it is sign posted, nothing is hidden. If career structure and salary is a shock, I wouldn't trust them with an aspirin. M&A now it all makes sense. Asset stripping and making small numbers of people rich
I love how now you try and shift the argument to doctors being a vocation and therefore should not expect to ever improve their remuneration package and T&Cs (if they did it would make NHS privatisation a bit harder and future M&A less attractive right?)
Of course everyone starting a new career/job knows what the base package is, but they also fairly expect do not endure pay freezes resulting in real term cuts.
I think the attitude that because someone works in the public sector they should be willing to accept whatever remuneration or T&Cs they get and never ask for more as that is ungrateful, is an awful stand point.
Can we assume that when you get ill or rushed into hospital you will be telling these greedy doctors what you think of them and lecturing on how they knew what they were signing up for?
I haven't moved the focus of my argument, it remains the same, any person wanting to start training as a junior doctor knows the structure and pay before they start. The pay rise was too much and should have been at best half of what was given, the government overpaid, and although you believe this to be the right thing to do it is in my opinion bringing the NHS one step closer to its inevitable failure.
On the surface the rise is generous but you cannot look at it in isolation from the historical (in)action that took place in the years leading up to this point. Is it not reasonable to expect pay to keep pace with inflation? Is it not reasonable to expect to be no worse off 5 years into your career?
Not one single junior doctor would be worse off at year 5.
The negotiations were not thorough enough and will leave the NHS vulnerable to less funding going forward.
BTW I plucked year 5 out of the air. It could be any time frame.
Are you saying below inflation pay rises and pay freezes have no effect during a period of growing inflation?"Compared to other HCPs, the pay structure (increments) for doctors who have years of training remaining, is pretty generous. This is probably why Notme has given up including us other HCPs, as it's a whole different ball game. Yes the starting salary point (which wasn't £15ph (unless they mean after tax) did need an uplift. But the doctors were not over 30% down due to austerity. As they went on strike prior to this occasion, 2016 I think I recall. | |||
Reply privately (closed, thread got too big) | |||
"It is astonishing that people seem to believe that the public owe them a good salary, and the public should be grateful to uplift the salaries of junior doctors by huge amounts without question. The lack of economic awareness and a selfishness driven by megalomaniac unions and leaders is eating the NHS from inside out. Nobody forces another to take a role, they do out from their own interests and I would assume they thoroughly investigate the salary, hours, locations and opportunities before embarking on their career of choice. That was obviously an assumption on my part and I will say again, if our junior doctors entering the profession are not aware of the salary and opportunities, I would question their actual ability to be thorough enough as well as the calibre of the people applying, something doesn’t add up. This Labour government in one stroke of a pen just 26 days into office has created an issue that will be with us for years to come, the additional costs now added to the already overwhelming cost the NHS will destroy it. The pay off from Labour to the BMA was appalling, paying the union who had relentlessly brought the NHS to its knees impacting the most vulnerable in our society, the way the union walked out ahead of the election to remind people the tories were bad, they had nobody to negotiate with, we were being use as political lambs at the sacrifice, and Labour dug deep paying out £9 billion and blaming a black hole in finance that they had nearly 50% of a hand in. The leftist populists sucked it up, to the point I see the Labour big sell regurgitated word for word, what I don’t see is awareness of fact around the deficit, labours part in that or towards the way Labour are softening up for the big hits next month. I want any government we have to do well, if they don’t, I don’t! It makes sense to support, but already I’m seeing poor judgement and future hardship from a government that cares little for it later people. Wow just wow. This attitude of public sector workers should not expect a good salary. Why because someone works in the public sector shouldn’t they be well paid? I’d argue a doctor makes a far bigger contribution than you (or I) yet I bet you are better paid (I certainly am)! I asked this on another thread but it went 178, so… Pretty sure you are a freelance “management” consultant (ie not doctor constant). Pretty sure (but could have this wrong) you work in the healthcare sector? Are you worth the money you are paid? Why? M&A and that is as far as I would be willing to say. As for value I add, it is measured and rewarded accordingly as I provide a ROI. The above is neither here nor there when it comes to vocation, we all have choice and decisions to make. Junior doctors should know this when they enter their profession, it is sign posted, nothing is hidden. If career structure and salary is a shock, I wouldn't trust them with an aspirin. M&A now it all makes sense. Asset stripping and making small numbers of people rich
I love how now you try and shift the argument to doctors being a vocation and therefore should not expect to ever improve their remuneration package and T&Cs (if they did it would make NHS privatisation a bit harder and future M&A less attractive right?)
Of course everyone starting a new career/job knows what the base package is, but they also fairly expect do not endure pay freezes resulting in real term cuts.
I think the attitude that because someone works in the public sector they should be willing to accept whatever remuneration or T&Cs they get and never ask for more as that is ungrateful, is an awful stand point.
Can we assume that when you get ill or rushed into hospital you will be telling these greedy doctors what you think of them and lecturing on how they knew what they were signing up for?
I haven't moved the focus of my argument, it remains the same, any person wanting to start training as a junior doctor knows the structure and pay before they start. The pay rise was too much and should have been at best half of what was given, the government overpaid, and although you believe this to be the right thing to do it is in my opinion bringing the NHS one step closer to its inevitable failure.
On the surface the rise is generous but you cannot look at it in isolation from the historical (in)action that took place in the years leading up to this point. Is it not reasonable to expect pay to keep pace with inflation? Is it not reasonable to expect to be no worse off 5 years into your career?
Not one single junior doctor would be worse off at year 5.
The negotiations were not thorough enough and will leave the NHS vulnerable to less funding going forward.
BTW I plucked year 5 out of the air. It could be any time frame.
Are you saying below inflation pay rises and pay freezes have no effect during a period of growing inflation?
the structure junior doctors work in, means they are always going above inflation as they progress through already agreed increments.
Which takes me back to the negotiations being problematic to the future of the NHS funding and other opportunities have been missed.
The BMA says that junior doctors’ pay in England has fallen by 26 per cent since 2008/09, once you account for inflation.
But the independent Institute for Fiscal Studies (IFS) think tank says a more accurate figure would be an 11 to 16 per cent fall since 2010."Proves my point that the BMA were lying (another thread). | |||
Reply privately (closed, thread got too big) | |||
"It is astonishing that people seem to believe that the public owe them a good salary, and the public should be grateful to uplift the salaries of junior doctors by huge amounts without question. The lack of economic awareness and a selfishness driven by megalomaniac unions and leaders is eating the NHS from inside out. Nobody forces another to take a role, they do out from their own interests and I would assume they thoroughly investigate the salary, hours, locations and opportunities before embarking on their career of choice. That was obviously an assumption on my part and I will say again, if our junior doctors entering the profession are not aware of the salary and opportunities, I would question their actual ability to be thorough enough as well as the calibre of the people applying, something doesn’t add up. This Labour government in one stroke of a pen just 26 days into office has created an issue that will be with us for years to come, the additional costs now added to the already overwhelming cost the NHS will destroy it. The pay off from Labour to the BMA was appalling, paying the union who had relentlessly brought the NHS to its knees impacting the most vulnerable in our society, the way the union walked out ahead of the election to remind people the tories were bad, they had nobody to negotiate with, we were being use as political lambs at the sacrifice, and Labour dug deep paying out £9 billion and blaming a black hole in finance that they had nearly 50% of a hand in. The leftist populists sucked it up, to the point I see the Labour big sell regurgitated word for word, what I don’t see is awareness of fact around the deficit, labours part in that or towards the way Labour are softening up for the big hits next month. I want any government we have to do well, if they don’t, I don’t! It makes sense to support, but already I’m seeing poor judgement and future hardship from a government that cares little for it later people. Wow just wow. This attitude of public sector workers should not expect a good salary. Why because someone works in the public sector shouldn’t they be well paid? I’d argue a doctor makes a far bigger contribution than you (or I) yet I bet you are better paid (I certainly am)! I asked this on another thread but it went 178, so… Pretty sure you are a freelance “management” consultant (ie not doctor constant). Pretty sure (but could have this wrong) you work in the healthcare sector? Are you worth the money you are paid? Why? M&A and that is as far as I would be willing to say. As for value I add, it is measured and rewarded accordingly as I provide a ROI. The above is neither here nor there when it comes to vocation, we all have choice and decisions to make. Junior doctors should know this when they enter their profession, it is sign posted, nothing is hidden. If career structure and salary is a shock, I wouldn't trust them with an aspirin. M&A now it all makes sense. Asset stripping and making small numbers of people rich
I love how now you try and shift the argument to doctors being a vocation and therefore should not expect to ever improve their remuneration package and T&Cs (if they did it would make NHS privatisation a bit harder and future M&A less attractive right?)
Of course everyone starting a new career/job knows what the base package is, but they also fairly expect do not endure pay freezes resulting in real term cuts.
I think the attitude that because someone works in the public sector they should be willing to accept whatever remuneration or T&Cs they get and never ask for more as that is ungrateful, is an awful stand point.
Can we assume that when you get ill or rushed into hospital you will be telling these greedy doctors what you think of them and lecturing on how they knew what they were signing up for?
I haven't moved the focus of my argument, it remains the same, any person wanting to start training as a junior doctor knows the structure and pay before they start. The pay rise was too much and should have been at best half of what was given, the government overpaid, and although you believe this to be the right thing to do it is in my opinion bringing the NHS one step closer to its inevitable failure.
On the surface the rise is generous but you cannot look at it in isolation from the historical (in)action that took place in the years leading up to this point. Is it not reasonable to expect pay to keep pace with inflation? Is it not reasonable to expect to be no worse off 5 years into your career?
Not one single junior doctor would be worse off at year 5.
The negotiations were not thorough enough and will leave the NHS vulnerable to less funding going forward.
BTW I plucked year 5 out of the air. It could be any time frame.
Are you saying below inflation pay rises and pay freezes have no effect during a period of growing inflation?
the structure junior doctors work in, means they are always going above inflation as they progress through already agreed increments.
Which takes me back to the negotiations being problematic to the future of the NHS funding and other opportunities have been missed.
The BMA says that junior doctors’ pay in England has fallen by 26 per cent since 2008/09, once you account for inflation.
But the independent Institute for Fiscal Studies (IFS) think tank says a more accurate figure would be an 11 to 16 per cent fall since 2010."That is not the point, the pay rise was inevitable and needed to happen. The award was too great and no negotiation was had. It was a poor first decision and one that will be a problem for years to come. | |||
Reply privately (closed, thread got too big) | |||
| |||
Reply privately (closed, thread got too big) | |||
"It is astonishing that people seem to believe that the public owe them a good salary, and the public should be grateful to uplift the salaries of junior doctors by huge amounts without question. The lack of economic awareness and a selfishness driven by megalomaniac unions and leaders is eating the NHS from inside out. Nobody forces another to take a role, they do out from their own interests and I would assume they thoroughly investigate the salary, hours, locations and opportunities before embarking on their career of choice. That was obviously an assumption on my part and I will say again, if our junior doctors entering the profession are not aware of the salary and opportunities, I would question their actual ability to be thorough enough as well as the calibre of the people applying, something doesn’t add up. This Labour government in one stroke of a pen just 26 days into office has created an issue that will be with us for years to come, the additional costs now added to the already overwhelming cost the NHS will destroy it. The pay off from Labour to the BMA was appalling, paying the union who had relentlessly brought the NHS to its knees impacting the most vulnerable in our society, the way the union walked out ahead of the election to remind people the tories were bad, they had nobody to negotiate with, we were being use as political lambs at the sacrifice, and Labour dug deep paying out £9 billion and blaming a black hole in finance that they had nearly 50% of a hand in. The leftist populists sucked it up, to the point I see the Labour big sell regurgitated word for word, what I don’t see is awareness of fact around the deficit, labours part in that or towards the way Labour are softening up for the big hits next month. I want any government we have to do well, if they don’t, I don’t! It makes sense to support, but already I’m seeing poor judgement and future hardship from a government that cares little for it later people. Wow just wow. This attitude of public sector workers should not expect a good salary. Why because someone works in the public sector shouldn’t they be well paid? I’d argue a doctor makes a far bigger contribution than you (or I) yet I bet you are better paid (I certainly am)! I asked this on another thread but it went 178, so… Pretty sure you are a freelance “management” consultant (ie not doctor constant). Pretty sure (but could have this wrong) you work in the healthcare sector? Are you worth the money you are paid? Why? M&A and that is as far as I would be willing to say. As for value I add, it is measured and rewarded accordingly as I provide a ROI. The above is neither here nor there when it comes to vocation, we all have choice and decisions to make. Junior doctors should know this when they enter their profession, it is sign posted, nothing is hidden. If career structure and salary is a shock, I wouldn't trust them with an aspirin. M&A now it all makes sense. Asset stripping and making small numbers of people rich
I love how now you try and shift the argument to doctors being a vocation and therefore should not expect to ever improve their remuneration package and T&Cs (if they did it would make NHS privatisation a bit harder and future M&A less attractive right?)
Of course everyone starting a new career/job knows what the base package is, but they also fairly expect do not endure pay freezes resulting in real term cuts.
I think the attitude that because someone works in the public sector they should be willing to accept whatever remuneration or T&Cs they get and never ask for more as that is ungrateful, is an awful stand point.
Can we assume that when you get ill or rushed into hospital you will be telling these greedy doctors what you think of them and lecturing on how they knew what they were signing up for?
I haven't moved the focus of my argument, it remains the same, any person wanting to start training as a junior doctor knows the structure and pay before they start. The pay rise was too much and should have been at best half of what was given, the government overpaid, and although you believe this to be the right thing to do it is in my opinion bringing the NHS one step closer to its inevitable failure.
On the surface the rise is generous but you cannot look at it in isolation from the historical (in)action that took place in the years leading up to this point. Is it not reasonable to expect pay to keep pace with inflation? Is it not reasonable to expect to be no worse off 5 years into your career?
Not one single junior doctor would be worse off at year 5.
The negotiations were not thorough enough and will leave the NHS vulnerable to less funding going forward.
BTW I plucked year 5 out of the air. It could be any time frame.
Are you saying below inflation pay rises and pay freezes have no effect during a period of growing inflation?
the structure junior doctors work in, means they are always going above inflation as they progress through already agreed increments.
Which takes me back to the negotiations being problematic to the future of the NHS funding and other opportunities have been missed.
The BMA says that junior doctors’ pay in England has fallen by 26 per cent since 2008/09, once you account for inflation.
But the independent Institute for Fiscal Studies (IFS) think tank says a more accurate figure would be an 11 to 16 per cent fall since 2010.
That is not the point, the pay rise was inevitable and needed to happen. The award was too great and no negotiation was had. It was a poor first decision and one that will be a problem for years to come. "How do you know no negotiation was had? Even if not, the govt would have seen written accounts of prior negotiations and the up-to-date knowledge what the strikes were costing, and a figure to get this all settled - less than was asked for (thankfully) and to cover two years (astutely); ie NOT a total of a 22% hit. | |||
Reply privately (closed, thread got too big) | |||
"It is astonishing that people seem to believe that the public owe them a good salary, and the public should be grateful to uplift the salaries of junior doctors by huge amounts without question. The lack of economic awareness and a selfishness driven by megalomaniac unions and leaders is eating the NHS from inside out. Nobody forces another to take a role, they do out from their own interests and I would assume they thoroughly investigate the salary, hours, locations and opportunities before embarking on their career of choice. That was obviously an assumption on my part and I will say again, if our junior doctors entering the profession are not aware of the salary and opportunities, I would question their actual ability to be thorough enough as well as the calibre of the people applying, something doesn’t add up. This Labour government in one stroke of a pen just 26 days into office has created an issue that will be with us for years to come, the additional costs now added to the already overwhelming cost the NHS will destroy it. The pay off from Labour to the BMA was appalling, paying the union who had relentlessly brought the NHS to its knees impacting the most vulnerable in our society, the way the union walked out ahead of the election to remind people the tories were bad, they had nobody to negotiate with, we were being use as political lambs at the sacrifice, and Labour dug deep paying out £9 billion and blaming a black hole in finance that they had nearly 50% of a hand in. The leftist populists sucked it up, to the point I see the Labour big sell regurgitated word for word, what I don’t see is awareness of fact around the deficit, labours part in that or towards the way Labour are softening up for the big hits next month. I want any government we have to do well, if they don’t, I don’t! It makes sense to support, but already I’m seeing poor judgement and future hardship from a government that cares little for it later people. Wow just wow. This attitude of public sector workers should not expect a good salary. Why because someone works in the public sector shouldn’t they be well paid? I’d argue a doctor makes a far bigger contribution than you (or I) yet I bet you are better paid (I certainly am)! I asked this on another thread but it went 178, so… Pretty sure you are a freelance “management” consultant (ie not doctor constant). Pretty sure (but could have this wrong) you work in the healthcare sector? Are you worth the money you are paid? Why? M&A and that is as far as I would be willing to say. As for value I add, it is measured and rewarded accordingly as I provide a ROI. The above is neither here nor there when it comes to vocation, we all have choice and decisions to make. Junior doctors should know this when they enter their profession, it is sign posted, nothing is hidden. If career structure and salary is a shock, I wouldn't trust them with an aspirin. M&A now it all makes sense. Asset stripping and making small numbers of people rich
I love how now you try and shift the argument to doctors being a vocation and therefore should not expect to ever improve their remuneration package and T&Cs (if they did it would make NHS privatisation a bit harder and future M&A less attractive right?)
Of course everyone starting a new career/job knows what the base package is, but they also fairly expect do not endure pay freezes resulting in real term cuts.
I think the attitude that because someone works in the public sector they should be willing to accept whatever remuneration or T&Cs they get and never ask for more as that is ungrateful, is an awful stand point.
Can we assume that when you get ill or rushed into hospital you will be telling these greedy doctors what you think of them and lecturing on how they knew what they were signing up for?
I haven't moved the focus of my argument, it remains the same, any person wanting to start training as a junior doctor knows the structure and pay before they start. The pay rise was too much and should have been at best half of what was given, the government overpaid, and although you believe this to be the right thing to do it is in my opinion bringing the NHS one step closer to its inevitable failure.
On the surface the rise is generous but you cannot look at it in isolation from the historical (in)action that took place in the years leading up to this point. Is it not reasonable to expect pay to keep pace with inflation? Is it not reasonable to expect to be no worse off 5 years into your career?
Not one single junior doctor would be worse off at year 5.
The negotiations were not thorough enough and will leave the NHS vulnerable to less funding going forward.
BTW I plucked year 5 out of the air. It could be any time frame.
Are you saying below inflation pay rises and pay freezes have no effect during a period of growing inflation?
the structure junior doctors work in, means they are always going above inflation as they progress through already agreed increments.
Which takes me back to the negotiations being problematic to the future of the NHS funding and other opportunities have been missed.
The BMA says that junior doctors’ pay in England has fallen by 26 per cent since 2008/09, once you account for inflation.
But the independent Institute for Fiscal Studies (IFS) think tank says a more accurate figure would be an 11 to 16 per cent fall since 2010.
That is not the point, the pay rise was inevitable and needed to happen. The award was too great and no negotiation was had. It was a poor first decision and one that will be a problem for years to come. "It is one of THE points as you were claiming “the structure junior doctors work in, means they are always going above inflation” which simply isn’t true according to the IFS. The BMA over-egged (they were using a different measure for inflation) but even the IFS says junior doctor pay was down! So I’ll let you admit your statement was wrong | |||
Reply privately (closed, thread got too big) | |||
"It is astonishing that people seem to believe that the public owe them a good salary, and the public should be grateful to uplift the salaries of junior doctors by huge amounts without question. The lack of economic awareness and a selfishness driven by megalomaniac unions and leaders is eating the NHS from inside out. Nobody forces another to take a role, they do out from their own interests and I would assume they thoroughly investigate the salary, hours, locations and opportunities before embarking on their career of choice. That was obviously an assumption on my part and I will say again, if our junior doctors entering the profession are not aware of the salary and opportunities, I would question their actual ability to be thorough enough as well as the calibre of the people applying, something doesn’t add up. This Labour government in one stroke of a pen just 26 days into office has created an issue that will be with us for years to come, the additional costs now added to the already overwhelming cost the NHS will destroy it. The pay off from Labour to the BMA was appalling, paying the union who had relentlessly brought the NHS to its knees impacting the most vulnerable in our society, the way the union walked out ahead of the election to remind people the tories were bad, they had nobody to negotiate with, we were being use as political lambs at the sacrifice, and Labour dug deep paying out £9 billion and blaming a black hole in finance that they had nearly 50% of a hand in. The leftist populists sucked it up, to the point I see the Labour big sell regurgitated word for word, what I don’t see is awareness of fact around the deficit, labours part in that or towards the way Labour are softening up for the big hits next month. I want any government we have to do well, if they don’t, I don’t! It makes sense to support, but already I’m seeing poor judgement and future hardship from a government that cares little for it later people. Wow just wow. This attitude of public sector workers should not expect a good salary. Why because someone works in the public sector shouldn’t they be well paid? I’d argue a doctor makes a far bigger contribution than you (or I) yet I bet you are better paid (I certainly am)! I asked this on another thread but it went 178, so… Pretty sure you are a freelance “management” consultant (ie not doctor constant). Pretty sure (but could have this wrong) you work in the healthcare sector? Are you worth the money you are paid? Why? M&A and that is as far as I would be willing to say. As for value I add, it is measured and rewarded accordingly as I provide a ROI. The above is neither here nor there when it comes to vocation, we all have choice and decisions to make. Junior doctors should know this when they enter their profession, it is sign posted, nothing is hidden. If career structure and salary is a shock, I wouldn't trust them with an aspirin. M&A now it all makes sense. Asset stripping and making small numbers of people rich
I love how now you try and shift the argument to doctors being a vocation and therefore should not expect to ever improve their remuneration package and T&Cs (if they did it would make NHS privatisation a bit harder and future M&A less attractive right?)
Of course everyone starting a new career/job knows what the base package is, but they also fairly expect do not endure pay freezes resulting in real term cuts.
I think the attitude that because someone works in the public sector they should be willing to accept whatever remuneration or T&Cs they get and never ask for more as that is ungrateful, is an awful stand point.
Can we assume that when you get ill or rushed into hospital you will be telling these greedy doctors what you think of them and lecturing on how they knew what they were signing up for?
I haven't moved the focus of my argument, it remains the same, any person wanting to start training as a junior doctor knows the structure and pay before they start. The pay rise was too much and should have been at best half of what was given, the government overpaid, and although you believe this to be the right thing to do it is in my opinion bringing the NHS one step closer to its inevitable failure.
On the surface the rise is generous but you cannot look at it in isolation from the historical (in)action that took place in the years leading up to this point. Is it not reasonable to expect pay to keep pace with inflation? Is it not reasonable to expect to be no worse off 5 years into your career?
Not one single junior doctor would be worse off at year 5.
The negotiations were not thorough enough and will leave the NHS vulnerable to less funding going forward.
BTW I plucked year 5 out of the air. It could be any time frame.
Are you saying below inflation pay rises and pay freezes have no effect during a period of growing inflation?
the structure junior doctors work in, means they are always going above inflation as they progress through already agreed increments.
Which takes me back to the negotiations being problematic to the future of the NHS funding and other opportunities have been missed.
The BMA says that junior doctors’ pay in England has fallen by 26 per cent since 2008/09, once you account for inflation.
But the independent Institute for Fiscal Studies (IFS) think tank says a more accurate figure would be an 11 to 16 per cent fall since 2010.
That is not the point, the pay rise was inevitable and needed to happen. The award was too great and no negotiation was had. It was a poor first decision and one that will be a problem for years to come.
How do you know no negotiation was had? Even if not, the govt would have seen written accounts of prior negotiations and the up-to-date knowledge what the strikes were costing, and a figure to get this all settled - less than was asked for (thankfully) and to cover two years (astutely); ie NOT a total of a 22% hit."Demands from the BMA that labour accepted, but nothing that would prove beneficial in terms of a bilateral contact above and beyond the %. This was an opportunity lost. | |||
Reply privately (closed, thread got too big) | |||
"It is astonishing that people seem to believe that the public owe them a good salary, and the public should be grateful to uplift the salaries of junior doctors by huge amounts without question. The lack of economic awareness and a selfishness driven by megalomaniac unions and leaders is eating the NHS from inside out. Nobody forces another to take a role, they do out from their own interests and I would assume they thoroughly investigate the salary, hours, locations and opportunities before embarking on their career of choice. That was obviously an assumption on my part and I will say again, if our junior doctors entering the profession are not aware of the salary and opportunities, I would question their actual ability to be thorough enough as well as the calibre of the people applying, something doesn’t add up. This Labour government in one stroke of a pen just 26 days into office has created an issue that will be with us for years to come, the additional costs now added to the already overwhelming cost the NHS will destroy it. The pay off from Labour to the BMA was appalling, paying the union who had relentlessly brought the NHS to its knees impacting the most vulnerable in our society, the way the union walked out ahead of the election to remind people the tories were bad, they had nobody to negotiate with, we were being use as political lambs at the sacrifice, and Labour dug deep paying out £9 billion and blaming a black hole in finance that they had nearly 50% of a hand in. The leftist populists sucked it up, to the point I see the Labour big sell regurgitated word for word, what I don’t see is awareness of fact around the deficit, labours part in that or towards the way Labour are softening up for the big hits next month. I want any government we have to do well, if they don’t, I don’t! It makes sense to support, but already I’m seeing poor judgement and future hardship from a government that cares little for it later people. Wow just wow. This attitude of public sector workers should not expect a good salary. Why because someone works in the public sector shouldn’t they be well paid? I’d argue a doctor makes a far bigger contribution than you (or I) yet I bet you are better paid (I certainly am)! I asked this on another thread but it went 178, so… Pretty sure you are a freelance “management” consultant (ie not doctor constant). Pretty sure (but could have this wrong) you work in the healthcare sector? Are you worth the money you are paid? Why? M&A and that is as far as I would be willing to say. As for value I add, it is measured and rewarded accordingly as I provide a ROI. The above is neither here nor there when it comes to vocation, we all have choice and decisions to make. Junior doctors should know this when they enter their profession, it is sign posted, nothing is hidden. If career structure and salary is a shock, I wouldn't trust them with an aspirin. M&A now it all makes sense. Asset stripping and making small numbers of people rich
I love how now you try and shift the argument to doctors being a vocation and therefore should not expect to ever improve their remuneration package and T&Cs (if they did it would make NHS privatisation a bit harder and future M&A less attractive right?)
Of course everyone starting a new career/job knows what the base package is, but they also fairly expect do not endure pay freezes resulting in real term cuts.
I think the attitude that because someone works in the public sector they should be willing to accept whatever remuneration or T&Cs they get and never ask for more as that is ungrateful, is an awful stand point.
Can we assume that when you get ill or rushed into hospital you will be telling these greedy doctors what you think of them and lecturing on how they knew what they were signing up for?
I haven't moved the focus of my argument, it remains the same, any person wanting to start training as a junior doctor knows the structure and pay before they start. The pay rise was too much and should have been at best half of what was given, the government overpaid, and although you believe this to be the right thing to do it is in my opinion bringing the NHS one step closer to its inevitable failure.
On the surface the rise is generous but you cannot look at it in isolation from the historical (in)action that took place in the years leading up to this point. Is it not reasonable to expect pay to keep pace with inflation? Is it not reasonable to expect to be no worse off 5 years into your career?
Not one single junior doctor would be worse off at year 5.
The negotiations were not thorough enough and will leave the NHS vulnerable to less funding going forward.
BTW I plucked year 5 out of the air. It could be any time frame.
Are you saying below inflation pay rises and pay freezes have no effect during a period of growing inflation?
the structure junior doctors work in, means they are always going above inflation as they progress through already agreed increments.
Which takes me back to the negotiations being problematic to the future of the NHS funding and other opportunities have been missed.
The BMA says that junior doctors’ pay in England has fallen by 26 per cent since 2008/09, once you account for inflation.
But the independent Institute for Fiscal Studies (IFS) think tank says a more accurate figure would be an 11 to 16 per cent fall since 2010.
That is not the point, the pay rise was inevitable and needed to happen. The award was too great and no negotiation was had. It was a poor first decision and one that will be a problem for years to come.
It is one of THE points as you were claiming “the structure junior doctors work in, means they are always going above inflation” which simply isn’t true according to the IFS.
The BMA over-egged (they were using a different measure for inflation) but even the IFS says junior doctor pay was down!
So I’ll let you admit your statement was wrong "I will go back to the beginning. Nobody forced them to start the training, they knew the starting figure and the incremental lifts on entry. If they were not happy with what was on offer they should not have signed up to it. | |||
Reply privately (closed, thread got too big) | |||
| |||
Reply privately (closed, thread got too big) | |||
"It is astonishing that people seem to believe that the public owe them a good salary, and the public should be grateful to uplift the salaries of junior doctors by huge amounts without question. The lack of economic awareness and a selfishness driven by megalomaniac unions and leaders is eating the NHS from inside out. Nobody forces another to take a role, they do out from their own interests and I would assume they thoroughly investigate the salary, hours, locations and opportunities before embarking on their career of choice. That was obviously an assumption on my part and I will say again, if our junior doctors entering the profession are not aware of the salary and opportunities, I would question their actual ability to be thorough enough as well as the calibre of the people applying, something doesn’t add up. This Labour government in one stroke of a pen just 26 days into office has created an issue that will be with us for years to come, the additional costs now added to the already overwhelming cost the NHS will destroy it. The pay off from Labour to the BMA was appalling, paying the union who had relentlessly brought the NHS to its knees impacting the most vulnerable in our society, the way the union walked out ahead of the election to remind people the tories were bad, they had nobody to negotiate with, we were being use as political lambs at the sacrifice, and Labour dug deep paying out £9 billion and blaming a black hole in finance that they had nearly 50% of a hand in. The leftist populists sucked it up, to the point I see the Labour big sell regurgitated word for word, what I don’t see is awareness of fact around the deficit, labours part in that or towards the way Labour are softening up for the big hits next month. I want any government we have to do well, if they don’t, I don’t! It makes sense to support, but already I’m seeing poor judgement and future hardship from a government that cares little for it later people. Wow just wow. This attitude of public sector workers should not expect a good salary. Why because someone works in the public sector shouldn’t they be well paid? I’d argue a doctor makes a far bigger contribution than you (or I) yet I bet you are better paid (I certainly am)! I asked this on another thread but it went 178, so… Pretty sure you are a freelance “management” consultant (ie not doctor constant). Pretty sure (but could have this wrong) you work in the healthcare sector? Are you worth the money you are paid? Why? M&A and that is as far as I would be willing to say. As for value I add, it is measured and rewarded accordingly as I provide a ROI. The above is neither here nor there when it comes to vocation, we all have choice and decisions to make. Junior doctors should know this when they enter their profession, it is sign posted, nothing is hidden. If career structure and salary is a shock, I wouldn't trust them with an aspirin. M&A now it all makes sense. Asset stripping and making small numbers of people rich
I love how now you try and shift the argument to doctors being a vocation and therefore should not expect to ever improve their remuneration package and T&Cs (if they did it would make NHS privatisation a bit harder and future M&A less attractive right?)
Of course everyone starting a new career/job knows what the base package is, but they also fairly expect do not endure pay freezes resulting in real term cuts.
I think the attitude that because someone works in the public sector they should be willing to accept whatever remuneration or T&Cs they get and never ask for more as that is ungrateful, is an awful stand point.
Can we assume that when you get ill or rushed into hospital you will be telling these greedy doctors what you think of them and lecturing on how they knew what they were signing up for?
I haven't moved the focus of my argument, it remains the same, any person wanting to start training as a junior doctor knows the structure and pay before they start. The pay rise was too much and should have been at best half of what was given, the government overpaid, and although you believe this to be the right thing to do it is in my opinion bringing the NHS one step closer to its inevitable failure.
On the surface the rise is generous but you cannot look at it in isolation from the historical (in)action that took place in the years leading up to this point. Is it not reasonable to expect pay to keep pace with inflation? Is it not reasonable to expect to be no worse off 5 years into your career?
Not one single junior doctor would be worse off at year 5.
The negotiations were not thorough enough and will leave the NHS vulnerable to less funding going forward.
BTW I plucked year 5 out of the air. It could be any time frame.
Are you saying below inflation pay rises and pay freezes have no effect during a period of growing inflation?
the structure junior doctors work in, means they are always going above inflation as they progress through already agreed increments.
Which takes me back to the negotiations being problematic to the future of the NHS funding and other opportunities have been missed.
The BMA says that junior doctors’ pay in England has fallen by 26 per cent since 2008/09, once you account for inflation.
But the independent Institute for Fiscal Studies (IFS) think tank says a more accurate figure would be an 11 to 16 per cent fall since 2010.
That is not the point, the pay rise was inevitable and needed to happen. The award was too great and no negotiation was had. It was a poor first decision and one that will be a problem for years to come.
It is one of THE points as you were claiming “the structure junior doctors work in, means they are always going above inflation” which simply isn’t true according to the IFS.
The BMA over-egged (they were using a different measure for inflation) but even the IFS says junior doctor pay was down!
So I’ll let you admit your statement was wrong
I will go back to the beginning. Nobody forced them to start the training, they knew the starting figure and the incremental lifts on entry. If they were not happy with what was on offer they should not have signed up to it.
"That is a non-argument. Nobody expects to be worse off further into their career. Just admit that they received below inflation pay rises. The IFS agrees! Your statement was wrong | |||
Reply privately (closed, thread got too big) | |||
"It is astonishing that people seem to believe that the public owe them a good salary, and the public should be grateful to uplift the salaries of junior doctors by huge amounts without question. The lack of economic awareness and a selfishness driven by megalomaniac unions and leaders is eating the NHS from inside out. Nobody forces another to take a role, they do out from their own interests and I would assume they thoroughly investigate the salary, hours, locations and opportunities before embarking on their career of choice. That was obviously an assumption on my part and I will say again, if our junior doctors entering the profession are not aware of the salary and opportunities, I would question their actual ability to be thorough enough as well as the calibre of the people applying, something doesn’t add up. This Labour government in one stroke of a pen just 26 days into office has created an issue that will be with us for years to come, the additional costs now added to the already overwhelming cost the NHS will destroy it. The pay off from Labour to the BMA was appalling, paying the union who had relentlessly brought the NHS to its knees impacting the most vulnerable in our society, the way the union walked out ahead of the election to remind people the tories were bad, they had nobody to negotiate with, we were being use as political lambs at the sacrifice, and Labour dug deep paying out £9 billion and blaming a black hole in finance that they had nearly 50% of a hand in. The leftist populists sucked it up, to the point I see the Labour big sell regurgitated word for word, what I don’t see is awareness of fact around the deficit, labours part in that or towards the way Labour are softening up for the big hits next month. I want any government we have to do well, if they don’t, I don’t! It makes sense to support, but already I’m seeing poor judgement and future hardship from a government that cares little for it later people. Wow just wow. This attitude of public sector workers should not expect a good salary. Why because someone works in the public sector shouldn’t they be well paid? I’d argue a doctor makes a far bigger contribution than you (or I) yet I bet you are better paid (I certainly am)! I asked this on another thread but it went 178, so… Pretty sure you are a freelance “management” consultant (ie not doctor constant). Pretty sure (but could have this wrong) you work in the healthcare sector? Are you worth the money you are paid? Why? M&A and that is as far as I would be willing to say. As for value I add, it is measured and rewarded accordingly as I provide a ROI. The above is neither here nor there when it comes to vocation, we all have choice and decisions to make. Junior doctors should know this when they enter their profession, it is sign posted, nothing is hidden. If career structure and salary is a shock, I wouldn't trust them with an aspirin. M&A now it all makes sense. Asset stripping and making small numbers of people rich
I love how now you try and shift the argument to doctors being a vocation and therefore should not expect to ever improve their remuneration package and T&Cs (if they did it would make NHS privatisation a bit harder and future M&A less attractive right?)
Of course everyone starting a new career/job knows what the base package is, but they also fairly expect do not endure pay freezes resulting in real term cuts.
I think the attitude that because someone works in the public sector they should be willing to accept whatever remuneration or T&Cs they get and never ask for more as that is ungrateful, is an awful stand point.
Can we assume that when you get ill or rushed into hospital you will be telling these greedy doctors what you think of them and lecturing on how they knew what they were signing up for?
I haven't moved the focus of my argument, it remains the same, any person wanting to start training as a junior doctor knows the structure and pay before they start. The pay rise was too much and should have been at best half of what was given, the government overpaid, and although you believe this to be the right thing to do it is in my opinion bringing the NHS one step closer to its inevitable failure.
On the surface the rise is generous but you cannot look at it in isolation from the historical (in)action that took place in the years leading up to this point. Is it not reasonable to expect pay to keep pace with inflation? Is it not reasonable to expect to be no worse off 5 years into your career?
Not one single junior doctor would be worse off at year 5.
The negotiations were not thorough enough and will leave the NHS vulnerable to less funding going forward.
BTW I plucked year 5 out of the air. It could be any time frame.
Are you saying below inflation pay rises and pay freezes have no effect during a period of growing inflation?
the structure junior doctors work in, means they are always going above inflation as they progress through already agreed increments.
Which takes me back to the negotiations being problematic to the future of the NHS funding and other opportunities have been missed.
The BMA says that junior doctors’ pay in England has fallen by 26 per cent since 2008/09, once you account for inflation.
But the independent Institute for Fiscal Studies (IFS) think tank says a more accurate figure would be an 11 to 16 per cent fall since 2010.
That is not the point, the pay rise was inevitable and needed to happen. The award was too great and no negotiation was had. It was a poor first decision and one that will be a problem for years to come.
It is one of THE points as you were claiming “the structure junior doctors work in, means they are always going above inflation” which simply isn’t true according to the IFS.
The BMA over-egged (they were using a different measure for inflation) but even the IFS says junior doctor pay was down!
So I’ll let you admit your statement was wrong
I will go back to the beginning. Nobody forced them to start the training, they knew the starting figure and the incremental lifts on entry. If they were not happy with what was on offer they should not have signed up to it.
"I think you being disingenuous in using what you think is a valid point, yes of course we all know or knew what the salaries were for the roles etc on starting but when the government essentially the pay master ignores the individual independent pay review bodies as the time served progresses than that is a break of the contract and given the MPs on the whole took the pay rises that their own independent body said at the same times it was also morally wrong.. | |||
Reply privately (closed, thread got too big) | |||
"It is astonishing that people seem to believe that the public owe them a good salary, and the public should be grateful to uplift the salaries of junior doctors by huge amounts without question. The lack of economic awareness and a selfishness driven by megalomaniac unions and leaders is eating the NHS from inside out. Nobody forces another to take a role, they do out from their own interests and I would assume they thoroughly investigate the salary, hours, locations and opportunities before embarking on their career of choice. That was obviously an assumption on my part and I will say again, if our junior doctors entering the profession are not aware of the salary and opportunities, I would question their actual ability to be thorough enough as well as the calibre of the people applying, something doesn’t add up. This Labour government in one stroke of a pen just 26 days into office has created an issue that will be with us for years to come, the additional costs now added to the already overwhelming cost the NHS will destroy it. The pay off from Labour to the BMA was appalling, paying the union who had relentlessly brought the NHS to its knees impacting the most vulnerable in our society, the way the union walked out ahead of the election to remind people the tories were bad, they had nobody to negotiate with, we were being use as political lambs at the sacrifice, and Labour dug deep paying out £9 billion and blaming a black hole in finance that they had nearly 50% of a hand in. The leftist populists sucked it up, to the point I see the Labour big sell regurgitated word for word, what I don’t see is awareness of fact around the deficit, labours part in that or towards the way Labour are softening up for the big hits next month. I want any government we have to do well, if they don’t, I don’t! It makes sense to support, but already I’m seeing poor judgement and future hardship from a government that cares little for it later people. Wow just wow. This attitude of public sector workers should not expect a good salary. Why because someone works in the public sector shouldn’t they be well paid? I’d argue a doctor makes a far bigger contribution than you (or I) yet I bet you are better paid (I certainly am)! I asked this on another thread but it went 178, so… Pretty sure you are a freelance “management” consultant (ie not doctor constant). Pretty sure (but could have this wrong) you work in the healthcare sector? Are you worth the money you are paid? Why? M&A and that is as far as I would be willing to say. As for value I add, it is measured and rewarded accordingly as I provide a ROI. The above is neither here nor there when it comes to vocation, we all have choice and decisions to make. Junior doctors should know this when they enter their profession, it is sign posted, nothing is hidden. If career structure and salary is a shock, I wouldn't trust them with an aspirin. M&A now it all makes sense. Asset stripping and making small numbers of people rich
I love how now you try and shift the argument to doctors being a vocation and therefore should not expect to ever improve their remuneration package and T&Cs (if they did it would make NHS privatisation a bit harder and future M&A less attractive right?)
Of course everyone starting a new career/job knows what the base package is, but they also fairly expect do not endure pay freezes resulting in real term cuts.
I think the attitude that because someone works in the public sector they should be willing to accept whatever remuneration or T&Cs they get and never ask for more as that is ungrateful, is an awful stand point.
Can we assume that when you get ill or rushed into hospital you will be telling these greedy doctors what you think of them and lecturing on how they knew what they were signing up for?
I haven't moved the focus of my argument, it remains the same, any person wanting to start training as a junior doctor knows the structure and pay before they start. The pay rise was too much and should have been at best half of what was given, the government overpaid, and although you believe this to be the right thing to do it is in my opinion bringing the NHS one step closer to its inevitable failure.
On the surface the rise is generous but you cannot look at it in isolation from the historical (in)action that took place in the years leading up to this point. Is it not reasonable to expect pay to keep pace with inflation? Is it not reasonable to expect to be no worse off 5 years into your career?
Not one single junior doctor would be worse off at year 5.
The negotiations were not thorough enough and will leave the NHS vulnerable to less funding going forward.
BTW I plucked year 5 out of the air. It could be any time frame.
Are you saying below inflation pay rises and pay freezes have no effect during a period of growing inflation?
the structure junior doctors work in, means they are always going above inflation as they progress through already agreed increments.
Which takes me back to the negotiations being problematic to the future of the NHS funding and other opportunities have been missed.
The BMA says that junior doctors’ pay in England has fallen by 26 per cent since 2008/09, once you account for inflation.
But the independent Institute for Fiscal Studies (IFS) think tank says a more accurate figure would be an 11 to 16 per cent fall since 2010.
That is not the point, the pay rise was inevitable and needed to happen. The award was too great and no negotiation was had. It was a poor first decision and one that will be a problem for years to come.
It is one of THE points as you were claiming “the structure junior doctors work in, means they are always going above inflation” which simply isn’t true according to the IFS.
The BMA over-egged (they were using a different measure for inflation) but even the IFS says junior doctor pay was down!
So I’ll let you admit your statement was wrong
I will go back to the beginning. Nobody forced them to start the training, they knew the starting figure and the incremental lifts on entry. If they were not happy with what was on offer they should not have signed up to it.
That is a non-argument. Nobody expects to be worse off further into their career. Just admit that they received below inflation pay rises. The IFS agrees! Your statement was wrong "You seem to be missing the point again. The structure they have lifts them quickly from their base of 29K to 34K to 40K to 51K to 58k year on year. I said these increases year on year are above inflation that was in addition to the award of 8.08% from the previous year. I believe they needed an increase and the 8% could have been elevated at points along the structure to improve both positions. The fact the labour government folded as soon as they walked through the door is concerning and shows naivety. | |||
Reply privately (closed, thread got too big) | |||
"It is astonishing that people seem to believe that the public owe them a good salary, and the public should be grateful to uplift the salaries of junior doctors by huge amounts without question. The lack of economic awareness and a selfishness driven by megalomaniac unions and leaders is eating the NHS from inside out. Nobody forces another to take a role, they do out from their own interests and I would assume they thoroughly investigate the salary, hours, locations and opportunities before embarking on their career of choice. That was obviously an assumption on my part and I will say again, if our junior doctors entering the profession are not aware of the salary and opportunities, I would question their actual ability to be thorough enough as well as the calibre of the people applying, something doesn’t add up. This Labour government in one stroke of a pen just 26 days into office has created an issue that will be with us for years to come, the additional costs now added to the already overwhelming cost the NHS will destroy it. The pay off from Labour to the BMA was appalling, paying the union who had relentlessly brought the NHS to its knees impacting the most vulnerable in our society, the way the union walked out ahead of the election to remind people the tories were bad, they had nobody to negotiate with, we were being use as political lambs at the sacrifice, and Labour dug deep paying out £9 billion and blaming a black hole in finance that they had nearly 50% of a hand in. The leftist populists sucked it up, to the point I see the Labour big sell regurgitated word for word, what I don’t see is awareness of fact around the deficit, labours part in that or towards the way Labour are softening up for the big hits next month. I want any government we have to do well, if they don’t, I don’t! It makes sense to support, but already I’m seeing poor judgement and future hardship from a government that cares little for it later people. Wow just wow. This attitude of public sector workers should not expect a good salary. Why because someone works in the public sector shouldn’t they be well paid? I’d argue a doctor makes a far bigger contribution than you (or I) yet I bet you are better paid (I certainly am)! I asked this on another thread but it went 178, so… Pretty sure you are a freelance “management” consultant (ie not doctor constant). Pretty sure (but could have this wrong) you work in the healthcare sector? Are you worth the money you are paid? Why? M&A and that is as far as I would be willing to say. As for value I add, it is measured and rewarded accordingly as I provide a ROI. The above is neither here nor there when it comes to vocation, we all have choice and decisions to make. Junior doctors should know this when they enter their profession, it is sign posted, nothing is hidden. If career structure and salary is a shock, I wouldn't trust them with an aspirin. M&A now it all makes sense. Asset stripping and making small numbers of people rich
I love how now you try and shift the argument to doctors being a vocation and therefore should not expect to ever improve their remuneration package and T&Cs (if they did it would make NHS privatisation a bit harder and future M&A less attractive right?)
Of course everyone starting a new career/job knows what the base package is, but they also fairly expect do not endure pay freezes resulting in real term cuts.
I think the attitude that because someone works in the public sector they should be willing to accept whatever remuneration or T&Cs they get and never ask for more as that is ungrateful, is an awful stand point.
Can we assume that when you get ill or rushed into hospital you will be telling these greedy doctors what you think of them and lecturing on how they knew what they were signing up for?
I haven't moved the focus of my argument, it remains the same, any person wanting to start training as a junior doctor knows the structure and pay before they start. The pay rise was too much and should have been at best half of what was given, the government overpaid, and although you believe this to be the right thing to do it is in my opinion bringing the NHS one step closer to its inevitable failure.
On the surface the rise is generous but you cannot look at it in isolation from the historical (in)action that took place in the years leading up to this point. Is it not reasonable to expect pay to keep pace with inflation? Is it not reasonable to expect to be no worse off 5 years into your career?
Not one single junior doctor would be worse off at year 5.
The negotiations were not thorough enough and will leave the NHS vulnerable to less funding going forward.
BTW I plucked year 5 out of the air. It could be any time frame.
Are you saying below inflation pay rises and pay freezes have no effect during a period of growing inflation?
the structure junior doctors work in, means they are always going above inflation as they progress through already agreed increments.
Which takes me back to the negotiations being problematic to the future of the NHS funding and other opportunities have been missed.
The BMA says that junior doctors’ pay in England has fallen by 26 per cent since 2008/09, once you account for inflation.
But the independent Institute for Fiscal Studies (IFS) think tank says a more accurate figure would be an 11 to 16 per cent fall since 2010.
That is not the point, the pay rise was inevitable and needed to happen. The award was too great and no negotiation was had. It was a poor first decision and one that will be a problem for years to come.
It is one of THE points as you were claiming “the structure junior doctors work in, means they are always going above inflation” which simply isn’t true according to the IFS.
The BMA over-egged (they were using a different measure for inflation) but even the IFS says junior doctor pay was down!
So I’ll let you admit your statement was wrong
I will go back to the beginning. Nobody forced them to start the training, they knew the starting figure and the incremental lifts on entry. If they were not happy with what was on offer they should not have signed up to it.
I think you being disingenuous in using what you think is a valid point, yes of course we all know or knew what the salaries were for the roles etc on starting but when the government essentially the pay master ignores the individual independent pay review bodies as the time served progresses than that is a break of the contract and given the MPs on the whole took the pay rises that their own independent body said at the same times it was also morally wrong..
"There is a lot of noise on this subject and little fact. The structure is known, the pay is known and there were pay rise offers on the table of 8.08% plus a further 3%. The government folded to the pressure of the BMA, it is that simple. | |||
Reply privately (closed, thread got too big) | |||
"It is astonishing that people seem to believe that the public owe them a good salary, and the public should be grateful to uplift the salaries of junior doctors by huge amounts without question. The lack of economic awareness and a selfishness driven by megalomaniac unions and leaders is eating the NHS from inside out. Nobody forces another to take a role, they do out from their own interests and I would assume they thoroughly investigate the salary, hours, locations and opportunities before embarking on their career of choice. That was obviously an assumption on my part and I will say again, if our junior doctors entering the profession are not aware of the salary and opportunities, I would question their actual ability to be thorough enough as well as the calibre of the people applying, something doesn’t add up. This Labour government in one stroke of a pen just 26 days into office has created an issue that will be with us for years to come, the additional costs now added to the already overwhelming cost the NHS will destroy it. The pay off from Labour to the BMA was appalling, paying the union who had relentlessly brought the NHS to its knees impacting the most vulnerable in our society, the way the union walked out ahead of the election to remind people the tories were bad, they had nobody to negotiate with, we were being use as political lambs at the sacrifice, and Labour dug deep paying out £9 billion and blaming a black hole in finance that they had nearly 50% of a hand in. The leftist populists sucked it up, to the point I see the Labour big sell regurgitated word for word, what I don’t see is awareness of fact around the deficit, labours part in that or towards the way Labour are softening up for the big hits next month. I want any government we have to do well, if they don’t, I don’t! It makes sense to support, but already I’m seeing poor judgement and future hardship from a government that cares little for it later people. Wow just wow. This attitude of public sector workers should not expect a good salary. Why because someone works in the public sector shouldn’t they be well paid? I’d argue a doctor makes a far bigger contribution than you (or I) yet I bet you are better paid (I certainly am)! I asked this on another thread but it went 178, so… Pretty sure you are a freelance “management” consultant (ie not doctor constant). Pretty sure (but could have this wrong) you work in the healthcare sector? Are you worth the money you are paid? Why? M&A and that is as far as I would be willing to say. As for value I add, it is measured and rewarded accordingly as I provide a ROI. The above is neither here nor there when it comes to vocation, we all have choice and decisions to make. Junior doctors should know this when they enter their profession, it is sign posted, nothing is hidden. If career structure and salary is a shock, I wouldn't trust them with an aspirin. M&A now it all makes sense. Asset stripping and making small numbers of people rich
I love how now you try and shift the argument to doctors being a vocation and therefore should not expect to ever improve their remuneration package and T&Cs (if they did it would make NHS privatisation a bit harder and future M&A less attractive right?)
Of course everyone starting a new career/job knows what the base package is, but they also fairly expect do not endure pay freezes resulting in real term cuts.
I think the attitude that because someone works in the public sector they should be willing to accept whatever remuneration or T&Cs they get and never ask for more as that is ungrateful, is an awful stand point.
Can we assume that when you get ill or rushed into hospital you will be telling these greedy doctors what you think of them and lecturing on how they knew what they were signing up for?
I haven't moved the focus of my argument, it remains the same, any person wanting to start training as a junior doctor knows the structure and pay before they start. The pay rise was too much and should have been at best half of what was given, the government overpaid, and although you believe this to be the right thing to do it is in my opinion bringing the NHS one step closer to its inevitable failure.
On the surface the rise is generous but you cannot look at it in isolation from the historical (in)action that took place in the years leading up to this point. Is it not reasonable to expect pay to keep pace with inflation? Is it not reasonable to expect to be no worse off 5 years into your career?
Not one single junior doctor would be worse off at year 5.
The negotiations were not thorough enough and will leave the NHS vulnerable to less funding going forward.
BTW I plucked year 5 out of the air. It could be any time frame.
Are you saying below inflation pay rises and pay freezes have no effect during a period of growing inflation?
the structure junior doctors work in, means they are always going above inflation as they progress through already agreed increments.
Which takes me back to the negotiations being problematic to the future of the NHS funding and other opportunities have been missed.
The BMA says that junior doctors’ pay in England has fallen by 26 per cent since 2008/09, once you account for inflation.
But the independent Institute for Fiscal Studies (IFS) think tank says a more accurate figure would be an 11 to 16 per cent fall since 2010.
That is not the point, the pay rise was inevitable and needed to happen. The award was too great and no negotiation was had. It was a poor first decision and one that will be a problem for years to come.
It is one of THE points as you were claiming “the structure junior doctors work in, means they are always going above inflation” which simply isn’t true according to the IFS.
The BMA over-egged (they were using a different measure for inflation) but even the IFS says junior doctor pay was down!
So I’ll let you admit your statement was wrong
I will go back to the beginning. Nobody forced them to start the training, they knew the starting figure and the incremental lifts on entry. If they were not happy with what was on offer they should not have signed up to it.
That is a non-argument. Nobody expects to be worse off further into their career. Just admit that they received below inflation pay rises. The IFS agrees! Your statement was wrong
You seem to be missing the point again.
The structure they have lifts them quickly from their base of 29K to 34K to 40K to 51K to 58k year on year.
I said these increases year on year are above inflation that was in addition to the award of 8.08% from the previous year.
I believe they needed an increase and the 8% could have been elevated at points along the structure to improve both positions.
The fact the labour government folded as soon as they walked through the door is concerning and shows naivety. "Pay rises with experience and seniority! Shock horror! That is a novelty! You mean they don’t stay as junior doctors their whole career!!!! Whodafunkit! So leave starting salary the same in 2024 as it was a decade or more earlier? With that thinking we’d still be on 1950s salaries! | |||
Reply privately (closed, thread got too big) | |||
"It is astonishing that people seem to believe that the public owe them a good salary, and the public should be grateful to uplift the salaries of junior doctors by huge amounts without question. The lack of economic awareness and a selfishness driven by megalomaniac unions and leaders is eating the NHS from inside out. Nobody forces another to take a role, they do out from their own interests and I would assume they thoroughly investigate the salary, hours, locations and opportunities before embarking on their career of choice. That was obviously an assumption on my part and I will say again, if our junior doctors entering the profession are not aware of the salary and opportunities, I would question their actual ability to be thorough enough as well as the calibre of the people applying, something doesn’t add up. This Labour government in one stroke of a pen just 26 days into office has created an issue that will be with us for years to come, the additional costs now added to the already overwhelming cost the NHS will destroy it. The pay off from Labour to the BMA was appalling, paying the union who had relentlessly brought the NHS to its knees impacting the most vulnerable in our society, the way the union walked out ahead of the election to remind people the tories were bad, they had nobody to negotiate with, we were being use as political lambs at the sacrifice, and Labour dug deep paying out £9 billion and blaming a black hole in finance that they had nearly 50% of a hand in. The leftist populists sucked it up, to the point I see the Labour big sell regurgitated word for word, what I don’t see is awareness of fact around the deficit, labours part in that or towards the way Labour are softening up for the big hits next month. I want any government we have to do well, if they don’t, I don’t! It makes sense to support, but already I’m seeing poor judgement and future hardship from a government that cares little for it later people. Wow just wow. This attitude of public sector workers should not expect a good salary. Why because someone works in the public sector shouldn’t they be well paid? I’d argue a doctor makes a far bigger contribution than you (or I) yet I bet you are better paid (I certainly am)! I asked this on another thread but it went 178, so… Pretty sure you are a freelance “management” consultant (ie not doctor constant). Pretty sure (but could have this wrong) you work in the healthcare sector? Are you worth the money you are paid? Why? M&A and that is as far as I would be willing to say. As for value I add, it is measured and rewarded accordingly as I provide a ROI. The above is neither here nor there when it comes to vocation, we all have choice and decisions to make. Junior doctors should know this when they enter their profession, it is sign posted, nothing is hidden. If career structure and salary is a shock, I wouldn't trust them with an aspirin. M&A now it all makes sense. Asset stripping and making small numbers of people rich
I love how now you try and shift the argument to doctors being a vocation and therefore should not expect to ever improve their remuneration package and T&Cs (if they did it would make NHS privatisation a bit harder and future M&A less attractive right?)
Of course everyone starting a new career/job knows what the base package is, but they also fairly expect do not endure pay freezes resulting in real term cuts.
I think the attitude that because someone works in the public sector they should be willing to accept whatever remuneration or T&Cs they get and never ask for more as that is ungrateful, is an awful stand point.
Can we assume that when you get ill or rushed into hospital you will be telling these greedy doctors what you think of them and lecturing on how they knew what they were signing up for?
I haven't moved the focus of my argument, it remains the same, any person wanting to start training as a junior doctor knows the structure and pay before they start. The pay rise was too much and should have been at best half of what was given, the government overpaid, and although you believe this to be the right thing to do it is in my opinion bringing the NHS one step closer to its inevitable failure.
On the surface the rise is generous but you cannot look at it in isolation from the historical (in)action that took place in the years leading up to this point. Is it not reasonable to expect pay to keep pace with inflation? Is it not reasonable to expect to be no worse off 5 years into your career?
Not one single junior doctor would be worse off at year 5.
The negotiations were not thorough enough and will leave the NHS vulnerable to less funding going forward.
BTW I plucked year 5 out of the air. It could be any time frame.
Are you saying below inflation pay rises and pay freezes have no effect during a period of growing inflation?
the structure junior doctors work in, means they are always going above inflation as they progress through already agreed increments.
Which takes me back to the negotiations being problematic to the future of the NHS funding and other opportunities have been missed.
The BMA says that junior doctors’ pay in England has fallen by 26 per cent since 2008/09, once you account for inflation.
But the independent Institute for Fiscal Studies (IFS) think tank says a more accurate figure would be an 11 to 16 per cent fall since 2010.
That is not the point, the pay rise was inevitable and needed to happen. The award was too great and no negotiation was had. It was a poor first decision and one that will be a problem for years to come.
It is one of THE points as you were claiming “the structure junior doctors work in, means they are always going above inflation” which simply isn’t true according to the IFS.
The BMA over-egged (they were using a different measure for inflation) but even the IFS says junior doctor pay was down!
So I’ll let you admit your statement was wrong
I will go back to the beginning. Nobody forced them to start the training, they knew the starting figure and the incremental lifts on entry. If they were not happy with what was on offer they should not have signed up to it.
That is a non-argument. Nobody expects to be worse off further into their career. Just admit that they received below inflation pay rises. The IFS agrees! Your statement was wrong
You seem to be missing the point again.
The structure they have lifts them quickly from their base of 29K to 34K to 40K to 51K to 58k year on year.
I said these increases year on year are above inflation that was in addition to the award of 8.08% from the previous year.
I believe they needed an increase and the 8% could have been elevated at points along the structure to improve both positions.
The fact the labour government folded as soon as they walked through the door is concerning and shows naivety.
Pay rises with experience and seniority! Shock horror! That is a novelty! You mean they don’t stay as junior doctors their whole career!!!! Whodafunkit!
So leave starting salary the same in 2024 as it was a decade or more earlier? With that thinking we’d still be on 1950s salaries!"I'm going to leave it there, no amount of back and forth is going to get you thinking about this from any other angle than, they deserved a pay rise. | |||
Reply privately (closed, thread got too big) | |||
"It is astonishing that people seem to believe that the public owe them a good salary, and the public should be grateful to uplift the salaries of junior doctors by huge amounts without question. The lack of economic awareness and a selfishness driven by megalomaniac unions and leaders is eating the NHS from inside out. Nobody forces another to take a role, they do out from their own interests and I would assume they thoroughly investigate the salary, hours, locations and opportunities before embarking on their career of choice. That was obviously an assumption on my part and I will say again, if our junior doctors entering the profession are not aware of the salary and opportunities, I would question their actual ability to be thorough enough as well as the calibre of the people applying, something doesn’t add up. This Labour government in one stroke of a pen just 26 days into office has created an issue that will be with us for years to come, the additional costs now added to the already overwhelming cost the NHS will destroy it. The pay off from Labour to the BMA was appalling, paying the union who had relentlessly brought the NHS to its knees impacting the most vulnerable in our society, the way the union walked out ahead of the election to remind people the tories were bad, they had nobody to negotiate with, we were being use as political lambs at the sacrifice, and Labour dug deep paying out £9 billion and blaming a black hole in finance that they had nearly 50% of a hand in. The leftist populists sucked it up, to the point I see the Labour big sell regurgitated word for word, what I don’t see is awareness of fact around the deficit, labours part in that or towards the way Labour are softening up for the big hits next month. I want any government we have to do well, if they don’t, I don’t! It makes sense to support, but already I’m seeing poor judgement and future hardship from a government that cares little for it later people. Wow just wow. This attitude of public sector workers should not expect a good salary. Why because someone works in the public sector shouldn’t they be well paid? I’d argue a doctor makes a far bigger contribution than you (or I) yet I bet you are better paid (I certainly am)! I asked this on another thread but it went 178, so… Pretty sure you are a freelance “management” consultant (ie not doctor constant). Pretty sure (but could have this wrong) you work in the healthcare sector? Are you worth the money you are paid? Why? M&A and that is as far as I would be willing to say. As for value I add, it is measured and rewarded accordingly as I provide a ROI. The above is neither here nor there when it comes to vocation, we all have choice and decisions to make. Junior doctors should know this when they enter their profession, it is sign posted, nothing is hidden. If career structure and salary is a shock, I wouldn't trust them with an aspirin. M&A now it all makes sense. Asset stripping and making small numbers of people rich
I love how now you try and shift the argument to doctors being a vocation and therefore should not expect to ever improve their remuneration package and T&Cs (if they did it would make NHS privatisation a bit harder and future M&A less attractive right?)
Of course everyone starting a new career/job knows what the base package is, but they also fairly expect do not endure pay freezes resulting in real term cuts.
I think the attitude that because someone works in the public sector they should be willing to accept whatever remuneration or T&Cs they get and never ask for more as that is ungrateful, is an awful stand point.
Can we assume that when you get ill or rushed into hospital you will be telling these greedy doctors what you think of them and lecturing on how they knew what they were signing up for?
I haven't moved the focus of my argument, it remains the same, any person wanting to start training as a junior doctor knows the structure and pay before they start. The pay rise was too much and should have been at best half of what was given, the government overpaid, and although you believe this to be the right thing to do it is in my opinion bringing the NHS one step closer to its inevitable failure.
On the surface the rise is generous but you cannot look at it in isolation from the historical (in)action that took place in the years leading up to this point. Is it not reasonable to expect pay to keep pace with inflation? Is it not reasonable to expect to be no worse off 5 years into your career?
Not one single junior doctor would be worse off at year 5.
The negotiations were not thorough enough and will leave the NHS vulnerable to less funding going forward.
BTW I plucked year 5 out of the air. It could be any time frame.
Are you saying below inflation pay rises and pay freezes have no effect during a period of growing inflation?
the structure junior doctors work in, means they are always going above inflation as they progress through already agreed increments.
Which takes me back to the negotiations being problematic to the future of the NHS funding and other opportunities have been missed.
The BMA says that junior doctors’ pay in England has fallen by 26 per cent since 2008/09, once you account for inflation.
But the independent Institute for Fiscal Studies (IFS) think tank says a more accurate figure would be an 11 to 16 per cent fall since 2010.
That is not the point, the pay rise was inevitable and needed to happen. The award was too great and no negotiation was had. It was a poor first decision and one that will be a problem for years to come.
It is one of THE points as you were claiming “the structure junior doctors work in, means they are always going above inflation” which simply isn’t true according to the IFS.
The BMA over-egged (they were using a different measure for inflation) but even the IFS says junior doctor pay was down!
So I’ll let you admit your statement was wrong
I will go back to the beginning. Nobody forced them to start the training, they knew the starting figure and the incremental lifts on entry. If they were not happy with what was on offer they should not have signed up to it.
That is a non-argument. Nobody expects to be worse off further into their career. Just admit that they received below inflation pay rises. The IFS agrees! Your statement was wrong
You seem to be missing the point again.
The structure they have lifts them quickly from their base of 29K to 34K to 40K to 51K to 58k year on year.
I said these increases year on year are above inflation that was in addition to the award of 8.08% from the previous year.
I believe they needed an increase and the 8% could have been elevated at points along the structure to improve both positions.
The fact the labour government folded as soon as they walked through the door is concerning and shows naivety.
Pay rises with experience and seniority! Shock horror! That is a novelty! You mean they don’t stay as junior doctors their whole career!!!! Whodafunkit!
So leave starting salary the same in 2024 as it was a decade or more earlier? With that thinking we’d still be on 1950s salaries!
I'm going to leave it there, no amount of back and forth is going to get you thinking about this from any other angle than, they deserved a pay rise."Which they did.. | |||
Reply privately (closed, thread got too big) | |||
"It is astonishing that people seem to believe that the public owe them a good salary, and the public should be grateful to uplift the salaries of junior doctors by huge amounts without question. The lack of economic awareness and a selfishness driven by megalomaniac unions and leaders is eating the NHS from inside out. Nobody forces another to take a role, they do out from their own interests and I would assume they thoroughly investigate the salary, hours, locations and opportunities before embarking on their career of choice. That was obviously an assumption on my part and I will say again, if our junior doctors entering the profession are not aware of the salary and opportunities, I would question their actual ability to be thorough enough as well as the calibre of the people applying, something doesn’t add up. This Labour government in one stroke of a pen just 26 days into office has created an issue that will be with us for years to come, the additional costs now added to the already overwhelming cost the NHS will destroy it. The pay off from Labour to the BMA was appalling, paying the union who had relentlessly brought the NHS to its knees impacting the most vulnerable in our society, the way the union walked out ahead of the election to remind people the tories were bad, they had nobody to negotiate with, we were being use as political lambs at the sacrifice, and Labour dug deep paying out £9 billion and blaming a black hole in finance that they had nearly 50% of a hand in. The leftist populists sucked it up, to the point I see the Labour big sell regurgitated word for word, what I don’t see is awareness of fact around the deficit, labours part in that or towards the way Labour are softening up for the big hits next month. I want any government we have to do well, if they don’t, I don’t! It makes sense to support, but already I’m seeing poor judgement and future hardship from a government that cares little for it later people. Wow just wow. This attitude of public sector workers should not expect a good salary. Why because someone works in the public sector shouldn’t they be well paid? I’d argue a doctor makes a far bigger contribution than you (or I) yet I bet you are better paid (I certainly am)! I asked this on another thread but it went 178, so… Pretty sure you are a freelance “management” consultant (ie not doctor constant). Pretty sure (but could have this wrong) you work in the healthcare sector? Are you worth the money you are paid? Why? M&A and that is as far as I would be willing to say. As for value I add, it is measured and rewarded accordingly as I provide a ROI. The above is neither here nor there when it comes to vocation, we all have choice and decisions to make. Junior doctors should know this when they enter their profession, it is sign posted, nothing is hidden. If career structure and salary is a shock, I wouldn't trust them with an aspirin. M&A now it all makes sense. Asset stripping and making small numbers of people rich
I love how now you try and shift the argument to doctors being a vocation and therefore should not expect to ever improve their remuneration package and T&Cs (if they did it would make NHS privatisation a bit harder and future M&A less attractive right?)
Of course everyone starting a new career/job knows what the base package is, but they also fairly expect do not endure pay freezes resulting in real term cuts.
I think the attitude that because someone works in the public sector they should be willing to accept whatever remuneration or T&Cs they get and never ask for more as that is ungrateful, is an awful stand point.
Can we assume that when you get ill or rushed into hospital you will be telling these greedy doctors what you think of them and lecturing on how they knew what they were signing up for?
I haven't moved the focus of my argument, it remains the same, any person wanting to start training as a junior doctor knows the structure and pay before they start. The pay rise was too much and should have been at best half of what was given, the government overpaid, and although you believe this to be the right thing to do it is in my opinion bringing the NHS one step closer to its inevitable failure.
On the surface the rise is generous but you cannot look at it in isolation from the historical (in)action that took place in the years leading up to this point. Is it not reasonable to expect pay to keep pace with inflation? Is it not reasonable to expect to be no worse off 5 years into your career?
Not one single junior doctor would be worse off at year 5.
The negotiations were not thorough enough and will leave the NHS vulnerable to less funding going forward.
BTW I plucked year 5 out of the air. It could be any time frame.
Are you saying below inflation pay rises and pay freezes have no effect during a period of growing inflation?
the structure junior doctors work in, means they are always going above inflation as they progress through already agreed increments.
Which takes me back to the negotiations being problematic to the future of the NHS funding and other opportunities have been missed.
The BMA says that junior doctors’ pay in England has fallen by 26 per cent since 2008/09, once you account for inflation.
But the independent Institute for Fiscal Studies (IFS) think tank says a more accurate figure would be an 11 to 16 per cent fall since 2010.
That is not the point, the pay rise was inevitable and needed to happen. The award was too great and no negotiation was had. It was a poor first decision and one that will be a problem for years to come.
It is one of THE points as you were claiming “the structure junior doctors work in, means they are always going above inflation” which simply isn’t true according to the IFS.
The BMA over-egged (they were using a different measure for inflation) but even the IFS says junior doctor pay was down!
So I’ll let you admit your statement was wrong
I will go back to the beginning. Nobody forced them to start the training, they knew the starting figure and the incremental lifts on entry. If they were not happy with what was on offer they should not have signed up to it.
That is a non-argument. Nobody expects to be worse off further into their career. Just admit that they received below inflation pay rises. The IFS agrees! Your statement was wrong
You seem to be missing the point again.
The structure they have lifts them quickly from their base of 29K to 34K to 40K to 51K to 58k year on year.
I said these increases year on year are above inflation that was in addition to the award of 8.08% from the previous year.
I believe they needed an increase and the 8% could have been elevated at points along the structure to improve both positions.
The fact the labour government folded as soon as they walked through the door is concerning and shows naivety.
Pay rises with experience and seniority! Shock horror! That is a novelty! You mean they don’t stay as junior doctors their whole career!!!! Whodafunkit!
So leave starting salary the same in 2024 as it was a decade or more earlier? With that thinking we’d still be on 1950s salaries!
I'm going to leave it there, no amount of back and forth is going to get you thinking about this from any other angle than, they deserved a pay rise."Modus Operandi @NotMe
I could level the same at you. You always come at every discussion from an inflexible position that only you are correct. Then when you cannot convince people that your position is correct you “will leave it there”. You increasingly obfuscate then try to claim others do not understand or imply they cannot be as intellectually superior as you as they do not understand or see things as you do!
You didn’t used to be like that. We had many really interesting and informative discussions over the years. Sometimes we agreed sometimes we didn’t, but it was always clear and open. Far less so these days (not just with me, I am seeing it often).
What happened? | |||
Reply privately (closed, thread got too big) | |||
"It is astonishing that people seem to believe that the public owe them a good salary, and the public should be grateful to uplift the salaries of junior doctors by huge amounts without question. The lack of economic awareness and a selfishness driven by megalomaniac unions and leaders is eating the NHS from inside out. Nobody forces another to take a role, they do out from their own interests and I would assume they thoroughly investigate the salary, hours, locations and opportunities before embarking on their career of choice. That was obviously an assumption on my part and I will say again, if our junior doctors entering the profession are not aware of the salary and opportunities, I would question their actual ability to be thorough enough as well as the calibre of the people applying, something doesn’t add up. This Labour government in one stroke of a pen just 26 days into office has created an issue that will be with us for years to come, the additional costs now added to the already overwhelming cost the NHS will destroy it. The pay off from Labour to the BMA was appalling, paying the union who had relentlessly brought the NHS to its knees impacting the most vulnerable in our society, the way the union walked out ahead of the election to remind people the tories were bad, they had nobody to negotiate with, we were being use as political lambs at the sacrifice, and Labour dug deep paying out £9 billion and blaming a black hole in finance that they had nearly 50% of a hand in. The leftist populists sucked it up, to the point I see the Labour big sell regurgitated word for word, what I don’t see is awareness of fact around the deficit, labours part in that or towards the way Labour are softening up for the big hits next month. I want any government we have to do well, if they don’t, I don’t! It makes sense to support, but already I’m seeing poor judgement and future hardship from a government that cares little for it later people. Wow just wow. This attitude of public sector workers should not expect a good salary. Why because someone works in the public sector shouldn’t they be well paid? I’d argue a doctor makes a far bigger contribution than you (or I) yet I bet you are better paid (I certainly am)! I asked this on another thread but it went 178, so… Pretty sure you are a freelance “management” consultant (ie not doctor constant). Pretty sure (but could have this wrong) you work in the healthcare sector? Are you worth the money you are paid? Why? M&A and that is as far as I would be willing to say. As for value I add, it is measured and rewarded accordingly as I provide a ROI. The above is neither here nor there when it comes to vocation, we all have choice and decisions to make. Junior doctors should know this when they enter their profession, it is sign posted, nothing is hidden. If career structure and salary is a shock, I wouldn't trust them with an aspirin. M&A now it all makes sense. Asset stripping and making small numbers of people rich
I love how now you try and shift the argument to doctors being a vocation and therefore should not expect to ever improve their remuneration package and T&Cs (if they did it would make NHS privatisation a bit harder and future M&A less attractive right?)
Of course everyone starting a new career/job knows what the base package is, but they also fairly expect do not endure pay freezes resulting in real term cuts.
I think the attitude that because someone works in the public sector they should be willing to accept whatever remuneration or T&Cs they get and never ask for more as that is ungrateful, is an awful stand point.
Can we assume that when you get ill or rushed into hospital you will be telling these greedy doctors what you think of them and lecturing on how they knew what they were signing up for?
I haven't moved the focus of my argument, it remains the same, any person wanting to start training as a junior doctor knows the structure and pay before they start. The pay rise was too much and should have been at best half of what was given, the government overpaid, and although you believe this to be the right thing to do it is in my opinion bringing the NHS one step closer to its inevitable failure.
On the surface the rise is generous but you cannot look at it in isolation from the historical (in)action that took place in the years leading up to this point. Is it not reasonable to expect pay to keep pace with inflation? Is it not reasonable to expect to be no worse off 5 years into your career?
Not one single junior doctor would be worse off at year 5.
The negotiations were not thorough enough and will leave the NHS vulnerable to less funding going forward.
BTW I plucked year 5 out of the air. It could be any time frame.
Are you saying below inflation pay rises and pay freezes have no effect during a period of growing inflation?
the structure junior doctors work in, means they are always going above inflation as they progress through already agreed increments.
Which takes me back to the negotiations being problematic to the future of the NHS funding and other opportunities have been missed.
The BMA says that junior doctors’ pay in England has fallen by 26 per cent since 2008/09, once you account for inflation.
But the independent Institute for Fiscal Studies (IFS) think tank says a more accurate figure would be an 11 to 16 per cent fall since 2010.
That is not the point, the pay rise was inevitable and needed to happen. The award was too great and no negotiation was had. It was a poor first decision and one that will be a problem for years to come.
It is one of THE points as you were claiming “the structure junior doctors work in, means they are always going above inflation” which simply isn’t true according to the IFS.
The BMA over-egged (they were using a different measure for inflation) but even the IFS says junior doctor pay was down!
So I’ll let you admit your statement was wrong
I will go back to the beginning. Nobody forced them to start the training, they knew the starting figure and the incremental lifts on entry. If they were not happy with what was on offer they should not have signed up to it.
That is a non-argument. Nobody expects to be worse off further into their career. Just admit that they received below inflation pay rises. The IFS agrees! Your statement was wrong
You seem to be missing the point again.
The structure they have lifts them quickly from their base of 29K to 34K to 40K to 51K to 58k year on year.
I said these increases year on year are above inflation that was in addition to the award of 8.08% from the previous year.
I believe they needed an increase and the 8% could have been elevated at points along the structure to improve both positions.
The fact the labour government folded as soon as they walked through the door is concerning and shows naivety.
Pay rises with experience and seniority! Shock horror! That is a novelty! You mean they don’t stay as junior doctors their whole career!!!! Whodafunkit!
So leave starting salary the same in 2024 as it was a decade or more earlier? With that thinking we’d still be on 1950s salaries!
I'm going to leave it there, no amount of back and forth is going to get you thinking about this from any other angle than, they deserved a pay rise.
Modus Operandi @NotMe
I could level the same at you. You always come at every discussion from an inflexible position that only you are correct. Then when you cannot convince people that your position is correct you “will leave it there”. You increasingly obfuscate then try to claim others do not understand or imply they cannot be as intellectually superior as you as they do not understand or see things as you do!
You didn’t used to be like that. We had many really interesting and informative discussions over the years. Sometimes we agreed sometimes we didn’t, but it was always clear and open. Far less so these days (not just with me, I am seeing it often).
What happened?"You are making an assumption that I want to change your mind, I don’t and I don’t want to change the mind of anyone, that is crazy to even think that. I’ve come to the conclusion that there is no point carrying on going around in circles with people when there is literally no middle ground, or the fundamental point being made has either been missed or ignored. It makes things so much easier to leave it at that point, it prevents unnecessary arguments. | |||
Reply privately (closed, thread got too big) | |||
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Reply privately (closed, thread got too big) | |||
"It is astonishing that people seem to believe that the public owe them a good salary, and the public should be grateful to uplift the salaries of junior doctors by huge amounts without question. The lack of economic awareness and a selfishness driven by megalomaniac unions and leaders is eating the NHS from inside out. Nobody forces another to take a role, they do out from their own interests and I would assume they thoroughly investigate the salary, hours, locations and opportunities before embarking on their career of choice. That was obviously an assumption on my part and I will say again, if our junior doctors entering the profession are not aware of the salary and opportunities, I would question their actual ability to be thorough enough as well as the calibre of the people applying, something doesn’t add up. This Labour government in one stroke of a pen just 26 days into office has created an issue that will be with us for years to come, the additional costs now added to the already overwhelming cost the NHS will destroy it. The pay off from Labour to the BMA was appalling, paying the union who had relentlessly brought the NHS to its knees impacting the most vulnerable in our society, the way the union walked out ahead of the election to remind people the tories were bad, they had nobody to negotiate with, we were being use as political lambs at the sacrifice, and Labour dug deep paying out £9 billion and blaming a black hole in finance that they had nearly 50% of a hand in. The leftist populists sucked it up, to the point I see the Labour big sell regurgitated word for word, what I don’t see is awareness of fact around the deficit, labours part in that or towards the way Labour are softening up for the big hits next month. I want any government we have to do well, if they don’t, I don’t! It makes sense to support, but already I’m seeing poor judgement and future hardship from a government that cares little for it later people. Wow just wow. This attitude of public sector workers should not expect a good salary. Why because someone works in the public sector shouldn’t they be well paid? I’d argue a doctor makes a far bigger contribution than you (or I) yet I bet you are better paid (I certainly am)! I asked this on another thread but it went 178, so… Pretty sure you are a freelance “management” consultant (ie not doctor constant). Pretty sure (but could have this wrong) you work in the healthcare sector? Are you worth the money you are paid? Why? M&A and that is as far as I would be willing to say. As for value I add, it is measured and rewarded accordingly as I provide a ROI. The above is neither here nor there when it comes to vocation, we all have choice and decisions to make. Junior doctors should know this when they enter their profession, it is sign posted, nothing is hidden. If career structure and salary is a shock, I wouldn't trust them with an aspirin. M&A now it all makes sense. Asset stripping and making small numbers of people rich
I love how now you try and shift the argument to doctors being a vocation and therefore should not expect to ever improve their remuneration package and T&Cs (if they did it would make NHS privatisation a bit harder and future M&A less attractive right?)
Of course everyone starting a new career/job knows what the base package is, but they also fairly expect do not endure pay freezes resulting in real term cuts.
I think the attitude that because someone works in the public sector they should be willing to accept whatever remuneration or T&Cs they get and never ask for more as that is ungrateful, is an awful stand point.
Can we assume that when you get ill or rushed into hospital you will be telling these greedy doctors what you think of them and lecturing on how they knew what they were signing up for?
I haven't moved the focus of my argument, it remains the same, any person wanting to start training as a junior doctor knows the structure and pay before they start. The pay rise was too much and should have been at best half of what was given, the government overpaid, and although you believe this to be the right thing to do it is in my opinion bringing the NHS one step closer to its inevitable failure.
On the surface the rise is generous but you cannot look at it in isolation from the historical (in)action that took place in the years leading up to this point. Is it not reasonable to expect pay to keep pace with inflation? Is it not reasonable to expect to be no worse off 5 years into your career?
Not one single junior doctor would be worse off at year 5.
The negotiations were not thorough enough and will leave the NHS vulnerable to less funding going forward.
BTW I plucked year 5 out of the air. It could be any time frame.
Are you saying below inflation pay rises and pay freezes have no effect during a period of growing inflation?
the structure junior doctors work in, means they are always going above inflation as they progress through already agreed increments.
Which takes me back to the negotiations being problematic to the future of the NHS funding and other opportunities have been missed.
The BMA says that junior doctors’ pay in England has fallen by 26 per cent since 2008/09, once you account for inflation.
But the independent Institute for Fiscal Studies (IFS) think tank says a more accurate figure would be an 11 to 16 per cent fall since 2010.
That is not the point, the pay rise was inevitable and needed to happen. The award was too great and no negotiation was had. It was a poor first decision and one that will be a problem for years to come.
It is one of THE points as you were claiming “the structure junior doctors work in, means they are always going above inflation” which simply isn’t true according to the IFS.
The BMA over-egged (they were using a different measure for inflation) but even the IFS says junior doctor pay was down!
So I’ll let you admit your statement was wrong
I will go back to the beginning. Nobody forced them to start the training, they knew the starting figure and the incremental lifts on entry. If they were not happy with what was on offer they should not have signed up to it.
That is a non-argument. Nobody expects to be worse off further into their career. Just admit that they received below inflation pay rises. The IFS agrees! Your statement was wrong
You seem to be missing the point again.
The structure they have lifts them quickly from their base of 29K to 34K to 40K to 51K to 58k year on year.
I said these increases year on year are above inflation that was in addition to the award of 8.08% from the previous year.
I believe they needed an increase and the 8% could have been elevated at points along the structure to improve both positions.
The fact the labour government folded as soon as they walked through the door is concerning and shows naivety.
Pay rises with experience and seniority! Shock horror! That is a novelty! You mean they don’t stay as junior doctors their whole career!!!! Whodafunkit!
So leave starting salary the same in 2024 as it was a decade or more earlier? With that thinking we’d still be on 1950s salaries!
I'm going to leave it there, no amount of back and forth is going to get you thinking about this from any other angle than, they deserved a pay rise.
Modus Operandi @NotMe
I could level the same at you. You always come at every discussion from an inflexible position that only you are correct. Then when you cannot convince people that your position is correct you “will leave it there”. You increasingly obfuscate then try to claim others do not understand or imply they cannot be as intellectually superior as you as they do not understand or see things as you do!
You didn’t used to be like that. We had many really interesting and informative discussions over the years. Sometimes we agreed sometimes we didn’t, but it was always clear and open. Far less so these days (not just with me, I am seeing it often).
What happened?
You are making an assumption that I want to change your mind, I don’t and I don’t want to change the mind of anyone, that is crazy to even think that.
I’ve come to the conclusion that there is no point carrying on going around in circles with people when there is literally no middle ground, or the fundamental point being made has either been missed or ignored.
It makes things so much easier to leave it at that point, it prevents unnecessary arguments.
"Fair enough. Not here to row but to discuss. I just don’t see you ever inhabiting the middle ground or conceding ground. | |||
Reply privately (closed, thread got too big) | |||
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Reply privately (closed, thread got too big) | |||
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Reply privately (closed, thread got too big) | |||
"It is astonishing that people seem to believe that the public owe them a good salary, and the public should be grateful to uplift the salaries of junior doctors by huge amounts without question. The lack of economic awareness and a selfishness driven by megalomaniac unions and leaders is eating the NHS from inside out. Nobody forces another to take a role, they do out from their own interests and I would assume they thoroughly investigate the salary, hours, locations and opportunities before embarking on their career of choice. That was obviously an assumption on my part and I will say again, if our junior doctors entering the profession are not aware of the salary and opportunities, I would question their actual ability to be thorough enough as well as the calibre of the people applying, something doesn’t add up. This Labour government in one stroke of a pen just 26 days into office has created an issue that will be with us for years to come, the additional costs now added to the already overwhelming cost the NHS will destroy it. The pay off from Labour to the BMA was appalling, paying the union who had relentlessly brought the NHS to its knees impacting the most vulnerable in our society, the way the union walked out ahead of the election to remind people the tories were bad, they had nobody to negotiate with, we were being use as political lambs at the sacrifice, and Labour dug deep paying out £9 billion and blaming a black hole in finance that they had nearly 50% of a hand in. The leftist populists sucked it up, to the point I see the Labour big sell regurgitated word for word, what I don’t see is awareness of fact around the deficit, labours part in that or towards the way Labour are softening up for the big hits next month. I want any government we have to do well, if they don’t, I don’t! It makes sense to support, but already I’m seeing poor judgement and future hardship from a government that cares little for it later people. " You are still ignoring the cost to the economy by the Tories refusing to negotiate with strikers. Cost us billions but that's ok it seems because it was the Tories. Mrs x | |||
Reply privately (closed, thread got too big) | |||
"It is astonishing that people seem to believe that the public owe them a good salary, and the public should be grateful to uplift the salaries of junior doctors by huge amounts without question. The lack of economic awareness and a selfishness driven by megalomaniac unions and leaders is eating the NHS from inside out. Nobody forces another to take a role, they do out from their own interests and I would assume they thoroughly investigate the salary, hours, locations and opportunities before embarking on their career of choice. That was obviously an assumption on my part and I will say again, if our junior doctors entering the profession are not aware of the salary and opportunities, I would question their actual ability to be thorough enough as well as the calibre of the people applying, something doesn’t add up. This Labour government in one stroke of a pen just 26 days into office has created an issue that will be with us for years to come, the additional costs now added to the already overwhelming cost the NHS will destroy it. The pay off from Labour to the BMA was appalling, paying the union who had relentlessly brought the NHS to its knees impacting the most vulnerable in our society, the way the union walked out ahead of the election to remind people the tories were bad, they had nobody to negotiate with, we were being use as political lambs at the sacrifice, and Labour dug deep paying out £9 billion and blaming a black hole in finance that they had nearly 50% of a hand in. The leftist populists sucked it up, to the point I see the Labour big sell regurgitated word for word, what I don’t see is awareness of fact around the deficit, labours part in that or towards the way Labour are softening up for the big hits next month. I want any government we have to do well, if they don’t, I don’t! It makes sense to support, but already I’m seeing poor judgement and future hardship from a government that cares little for it later people. You are still ignoring the cost to the economy by the Tories refusing to negotiate with strikers. Cost us billions but that's ok it seems because it was the Tories. Mrs x" I've heard this before, how did it cost us billions? | |||
Reply privately (closed, thread got too big) | |||
"It is astonishing that people seem to believe that the public owe them a good salary, and the public should be grateful to uplift the salaries of junior doctors by huge amounts without question. The lack of economic awareness and a selfishness driven by megalomaniac unions and leaders is eating the NHS from inside out. Nobody forces another to take a role, they do out from their own interests and I would assume they thoroughly investigate the salary, hours, locations and opportunities before embarking on their career of choice. That was obviously an assumption on my part and I will say again, if our junior doctors entering the profession are not aware of the salary and opportunities, I would question their actual ability to be thorough enough as well as the calibre of the people applying, something doesn’t add up. This Labour government in one stroke of a pen just 26 days into office has created an issue that will be with us for years to come, the additional costs now added to the already overwhelming cost the NHS will destroy it. The pay off from Labour to the BMA was appalling, paying the union who had relentlessly brought the NHS to its knees impacting the most vulnerable in our society, the way the union walked out ahead of the election to remind people the tories were bad, they had nobody to negotiate with, we were being use as political lambs at the sacrifice, and Labour dug deep paying out £9 billion and blaming a black hole in finance that they had nearly 50% of a hand in. The leftist populists sucked it up, to the point I see the Labour big sell regurgitated word for word, what I don’t see is awareness of fact around the deficit, labours part in that or towards the way Labour are softening up for the big hits next month. I want any government we have to do well, if they don’t, I don’t! It makes sense to support, but already I’m seeing poor judgement and future hardship from a government that cares little for it later people. You are still ignoring the cost to the economy by the Tories refusing to negotiate with strikers. Cost us billions but that's ok it seems because it was the Tories. Mrs x I've heard this before, how did it cost us billions?" I've given you costs in another thread. In just two years it cost the economy 4 billion due to train strikes. Hospitality sector cost to the economy by striked an estimated 3.5 billion. The NHS strikes another 1.5 billion. This is due to the fact the Tories did fuck all to sort out this situation. They didn't even enter the room to negotiate with the railways. So it could be said Labour have acted quickly and saved the economy from these tremendous amounts of debt by acting so quickly and decisively. Mrs x | |||
Reply privately (closed, thread got too big) | |||
"It is astonishing that people seem to believe that the public owe them a good salary, and the public should be grateful to uplift the salaries of junior doctors by huge amounts without question. The lack of economic awareness and a selfishness driven by megalomaniac unions and leaders is eating the NHS from inside out. Nobody forces another to take a role, they do out from their own interests and I would assume they thoroughly investigate the salary, hours, locations and opportunities before embarking on their career of choice. That was obviously an assumption on my part and I will say again, if our junior doctors entering the profession are not aware of the salary and opportunities, I would question their actual ability to be thorough enough as well as the calibre of the people applying, something doesn’t add up. This Labour government in one stroke of a pen just 26 days into office has created an issue that will be with us for years to come, the additional costs now added to the already overwhelming cost the NHS will destroy it. The pay off from Labour to the BMA was appalling, paying the union who had relentlessly brought the NHS to its knees impacting the most vulnerable in our society, the way the union walked out ahead of the election to remind people the tories were bad, they had nobody to negotiate with, we were being use as political lambs at the sacrifice, and Labour dug deep paying out £9 billion and blaming a black hole in finance that they had nearly 50% of a hand in. The leftist populists sucked it up, to the point I see the Labour big sell regurgitated word for word, what I don’t see is awareness of fact around the deficit, labours part in that or towards the way Labour are softening up for the big hits next month. I want any government we have to do well, if they don’t, I don’t! It makes sense to support, but already I’m seeing poor judgement and future hardship from a government that cares little for it later people. You are still ignoring the cost to the economy by the Tories refusing to negotiate with strikers. Cost us billions but that's ok it seems because it was the Tories. Mrs x I've heard this before, how did it cost us billions?I've given you costs in another thread. In just two years it cost the economy 4 billion due to train strikes. Hospitality sector cost to the economy by striked an estimated 3.5 billion. The NHS strikes another 1.5 billion. This is due to the fact the Tories did fuck all to sort out this situation. They didn't even enter the room to negotiate with the railways. So it could be said Labour have acted quickly and saved the economy from these tremendous amounts of debt by acting so quickly and decisively. Mrs x" The way you are looking at this problem is how the unions want us to look at the problem they have created. The costs of strikes are inevitable, however they are not a true cost as in it is costing the tax payer as such and even if it does cost the tax payer we sometimes need to take a hit to ensure we have a better outcome. For example rescheduled appointments are baked into the overall cost of the service that is already paid for, moving them is it really a cost and I know that is stupid question because we can make it look like a cost and we can also water it away to nothing. The government gave away to much for to little, and we lost the opportunity to have a bilateral contract that would have proved beneficial to both parties. The last paragraph is what I can continue to talk about, above it is our opinions that will not change. | |||
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"Out of curiosity, should a train driver who earns £70k which is double the average salary in the UK get a pay rise? " Why shouldn't they? At what point does anyone not deserve a pay rise? Mrs x | |||
Reply privately (closed, thread got too big) | |||
"It is astonishing that people seem to believe that the public owe them a good salary, and the public should be grateful to uplift the salaries of junior doctors by huge amounts without question. The lack of economic awareness and a selfishness driven by megalomaniac unions and leaders is eating the NHS from inside out. Nobody forces another to take a role, they do out from their own interests and I would assume they thoroughly investigate the salary, hours, locations and opportunities before embarking on their career of choice. That was obviously an assumption on my part and I will say again, if our junior doctors entering the profession are not aware of the salary and opportunities, I would question their actual ability to be thorough enough as well as the calibre of the people applying, something doesn’t add up. This Labour government in one stroke of a pen just 26 days into office has created an issue that will be with us for years to come, the additional costs now added to the already overwhelming cost the NHS will destroy it. The pay off from Labour to the BMA was appalling, paying the union who had relentlessly brought the NHS to its knees impacting the most vulnerable in our society, the way the union walked out ahead of the election to remind people the tories were bad, they had nobody to negotiate with, we were being use as political lambs at the sacrifice, and Labour dug deep paying out £9 billion and blaming a black hole in finance that they had nearly 50% of a hand in. The leftist populists sucked it up, to the point I see the Labour big sell regurgitated word for word, what I don’t see is awareness of fact around the deficit, labours part in that or towards the way Labour are softening up for the big hits next month. I want any government we have to do well, if they don’t, I don’t! It makes sense to support, but already I’m seeing poor judgement and future hardship from a government that cares little for it later people. You are still ignoring the cost to the economy by the Tories refusing to negotiate with strikers. Cost us billions but that's ok it seems because it was the Tories. Mrs x I've heard this before, how did it cost us billions?I've given you costs in another thread. In just two years it cost the economy 4 billion due to train strikes. Hospitality sector cost to the economy by striked an estimated 3.5 billion. The NHS strikes another 1.5 billion. This is due to the fact the Tories did fuck all to sort out this situation. They didn't even enter the room to negotiate with the railways. So it could be said Labour have acted quickly and saved the economy from these tremendous amounts of debt by acting so quickly and decisively. Mrs x The way you are looking at this problem is how the unions want us to look at the problem they have created. The costs of strikes are inevitable, however they are not a true cost as in it is costing the tax payer as such and even if it does cost the tax payer we sometimes need to take a hit to ensure we have a better outcome. For example rescheduled appointments are baked into the overall cost of the service that is already paid for, moving them is it really a cost and I know that is stupid question because we can make it look like a cost and we can also water it away to nothing. The government gave away to much for to little, and we lost the opportunity to have a bilateral contract that would have proved beneficial to both parties. The last paragraph is what I can continue to talk about, above it is our opinions that will not change. "All those parties were going to get a pay rise, the amount that Labour allegedly overpaid is debatable but it's true that by settling these disputes and getting the workers back to work has saved a massive amount of debt to the economy. So how can that not be seen as being prudent? Mrs x | |||
Reply privately (closed, thread got too big) | |||
"Out of curiosity, should a train driver who earns £70k which is double the average salary in the UK get a pay rise? " Yes! I earn considerably more than that and I would still expect a pay rise! That is how people progress in life. Do you think everything should be static? Weird worldview! | |||
Reply privately (closed, thread got too big) | |||
"It is astonishing that people seem to believe that the public owe them a good salary, and the public should be grateful to uplift the salaries of junior doctors by huge amounts without question. The lack of economic awareness and a selfishness driven by megalomaniac unions and leaders is eating the NHS from inside out. Nobody forces another to take a role, they do out from their own interests and I would assume they thoroughly investigate the salary, hours, locations and opportunities before embarking on their career of choice. That was obviously an assumption on my part and I will say again, if our junior doctors entering the profession are not aware of the salary and opportunities, I would question their actual ability to be thorough enough as well as the calibre of the people applying, something doesn’t add up. This Labour government in one stroke of a pen just 26 days into office has created an issue that will be with us for years to come, the additional costs now added to the already overwhelming cost the NHS will destroy it. The pay off from Labour to the BMA was appalling, paying the union who had relentlessly brought the NHS to its knees impacting the most vulnerable in our society, the way the union walked out ahead of the election to remind people the tories were bad, they had nobody to negotiate with, we were being use as political lambs at the sacrifice, and Labour dug deep paying out £9 billion and blaming a black hole in finance that they had nearly 50% of a hand in. The leftist populists sucked it up, to the point I see the Labour big sell regurgitated word for word, what I don’t see is awareness of fact around the deficit, labours part in that or towards the way Labour are softening up for the big hits next month. I want any government we have to do well, if they don’t, I don’t! It makes sense to support, but already I’m seeing poor judgement and future hardship from a government that cares little for it later people. You are still ignoring the cost to the economy by the Tories refusing to negotiate with strikers. Cost us billions but that's ok it seems because it was the Tories. Mrs x I've heard this before, how did it cost us billions?I've given you costs in another thread. In just two years it cost the economy 4 billion due to train strikes. Hospitality sector cost to the economy by striked an estimated 3.5 billion. The NHS strikes another 1.5 billion. This is due to the fact the Tories did fuck all to sort out this situation. They didn't even enter the room to negotiate with the railways. So it could be said Labour have acted quickly and saved the economy from these tremendous amounts of debt by acting so quickly and decisively. Mrs x" That’s one view. Mine is that the unions now rule the country, and Starmer is too weak / compromised to stand up to them | |||
Reply privately (closed, thread got too big) | |||
"It is astonishing that people seem to believe that the public owe them a good salary, and the public should be grateful to uplift the salaries of junior doctors by huge amounts without question. The lack of economic awareness and a selfishness driven by megalomaniac unions and leaders is eating the NHS from inside out. Nobody forces another to take a role, they do out from their own interests and I would assume they thoroughly investigate the salary, hours, locations and opportunities before embarking on their career of choice. That was obviously an assumption on my part and I will say again, if our junior doctors entering the profession are not aware of the salary and opportunities, I would question their actual ability to be thorough enough as well as the calibre of the people applying, something doesn’t add up. This Labour government in one stroke of a pen just 26 days into office has created an issue that will be with us for years to come, the additional costs now added to the already overwhelming cost the NHS will destroy it. The pay off from Labour to the BMA was appalling, paying the union who had relentlessly brought the NHS to its knees impacting the most vulnerable in our society, the way the union walked out ahead of the election to remind people the tories were bad, they had nobody to negotiate with, we were being use as political lambs at the sacrifice, and Labour dug deep paying out £9 billion and blaming a black hole in finance that they had nearly 50% of a hand in. The leftist populists sucked it up, to the point I see the Labour big sell regurgitated word for word, what I don’t see is awareness of fact around the deficit, labours part in that or towards the way Labour are softening up for the big hits next month. I want any government we have to do well, if they don’t, I don’t! It makes sense to support, but already I’m seeing poor judgement and future hardship from a government that cares little for it later people. You are still ignoring the cost to the economy by the Tories refusing to negotiate with strikers. Cost us billions but that's ok it seems because it was the Tories. Mrs x I've heard this before, how did it cost us billions?I've given you costs in another thread. In just two years it cost the economy 4 billion due to train strikes. Hospitality sector cost to the economy by striked an estimated 3.5 billion. The NHS strikes another 1.5 billion. This is due to the fact the Tories did fuck all to sort out this situation. They didn't even enter the room to negotiate with the railways. So it could be said Labour have acted quickly and saved the economy from these tremendous amounts of debt by acting so quickly and decisively. Mrs x The way you are looking at this problem is how the unions want us to look at the problem they have created. The costs of strikes are inevitable, however they are not a true cost as in it is costing the tax payer as such and even if it does cost the tax payer we sometimes need to take a hit to ensure we have a better outcome. For example rescheduled appointments are baked into the overall cost of the service that is already paid for, moving them is it really a cost and I know that is stupid question because we can make it look like a cost and we can also water it away to nothing. The government gave away to much for to little, and we lost the opportunity to have a bilateral contract that would have proved beneficial to both parties. The last paragraph is what I can continue to talk about, above it is our opinions that will not change. All those parties were going to get a pay rise, the amount that Labour allegedly overpaid is debatable but it's true that by settling these disputes and getting the workers back to work has saved a massive amount of debt to the economy.
So how can that not be seen as being prudent?
Mrs x"Giving in massively to the unions only teaches them that all thru have to do is bring the country to a standstill and they get a pay rise. Worked brilliantly for Bob Crowe in London for many years | |||
Reply privately (closed, thread got too big) | |||
"Out of curiosity, should a train driver who earns £70k which is double the average salary in the UK get a pay rise? Why shouldn't they? At what point does anyone not deserve a pay rise? Mrs x" When their cumulative pay rises have massively outstripped other public service workers | |||
Reply privately (closed, thread got too big) | |||
"It is astonishing that people seem to believe that the public owe them a good salary, and the public should be grateful to uplift the salaries of junior doctors by huge amounts without question. The lack of economic awareness and a selfishness driven by megalomaniac unions and leaders is eating the NHS from inside out. Nobody forces another to take a role, they do out from their own interests and I would assume they thoroughly investigate the salary, hours, locations and opportunities before embarking on their career of choice. That was obviously an assumption on my part and I will say again, if our junior doctors entering the profession are not aware of the salary and opportunities, I would question their actual ability to be thorough enough as well as the calibre of the people applying, something doesn’t add up. This Labour government in one stroke of a pen just 26 days into office has created an issue that will be with us for years to come, the additional costs now added to the already overwhelming cost the NHS will destroy it. The pay off from Labour to the BMA was appalling, paying the union who had relentlessly brought the NHS to its knees impacting the most vulnerable in our society, the way the union walked out ahead of the election to remind people the tories were bad, they had nobody to negotiate with, we were being use as political lambs at the sacrifice, and Labour dug deep paying out £9 billion and blaming a black hole in finance that they had nearly 50% of a hand in. The leftist populists sucked it up, to the point I see the Labour big sell regurgitated word for word, what I don’t see is awareness of fact around the deficit, labours part in that or towards the way Labour are softening up for the big hits next month. I want any government we have to do well, if they don’t, I don’t! It makes sense to support, but already I’m seeing poor judgement and future hardship from a government that cares little for it later people. You are still ignoring the cost to the economy by the Tories refusing to negotiate with strikers. Cost us billions but that's ok it seems because it was the Tories. Mrs x I've heard this before, how did it cost us billions?I've given you costs in another thread. In just two years it cost the economy 4 billion due to train strikes. Hospitality sector cost to the economy by striked an estimated 3.5 billion. The NHS strikes another 1.5 billion. This is due to the fact the Tories did fuck all to sort out this situation. They didn't even enter the room to negotiate with the railways. So it could be said Labour have acted quickly and saved the economy from these tremendous amounts of debt by acting so quickly and decisively. Mrs x That’s one view. Mine is that the unions now rule the country, and Starmer is too weak / compromised to stand up to them " It's not a view, these are the costs incurred by the Tories on our economy for refusing to deal with worker unrest. Labour sorted it and stopped these debts escalating. Or is it strength to allow debt to spiral so long as you don't negotiate with the unions? Mrs x | |||
Reply privately (closed, thread got too big) | |||
"It is astonishing that people seem to believe that the public owe them a good salary, and the public should be grateful to uplift the salaries of junior doctors by huge amounts without question. The lack of economic awareness and a selfishness driven by megalomaniac unions and leaders is eating the NHS from inside out. Nobody forces another to take a role, they do out from their own interests and I would assume they thoroughly investigate the salary, hours, locations and opportunities before embarking on their career of choice. That was obviously an assumption on my part and I will say again, if our junior doctors entering the profession are not aware of the salary and opportunities, I would question their actual ability to be thorough enough as well as the calibre of the people applying, something doesn’t add up. This Labour government in one stroke of a pen just 26 days into office has created an issue that will be with us for years to come, the additional costs now added to the already overwhelming cost the NHS will destroy it. The pay off from Labour to the BMA was appalling, paying the union who had relentlessly brought the NHS to its knees impacting the most vulnerable in our society, the way the union walked out ahead of the election to remind people the tories were bad, they had nobody to negotiate with, we were being use as political lambs at the sacrifice, and Labour dug deep paying out £9 billion and blaming a black hole in finance that they had nearly 50% of a hand in. The leftist populists sucked it up, to the point I see the Labour big sell regurgitated word for word, what I don’t see is awareness of fact around the deficit, labours part in that or towards the way Labour are softening up for the big hits next month. I want any government we have to do well, if they don’t, I don’t! It makes sense to support, but already I’m seeing poor judgement and future hardship from a government that cares little for it later people. You are still ignoring the cost to the economy by the Tories refusing to negotiate with strikers. Cost us billions but that's ok it seems because it was the Tories. Mrs x I've heard this before, how did it cost us billions?I've given you costs in another thread. In just two years it cost the economy 4 billion due to train strikes. Hospitality sector cost to the economy by striked an estimated 3.5 billion. The NHS strikes another 1.5 billion. This is due to the fact the Tories did fuck all to sort out this situation. They didn't even enter the room to negotiate with the railways. So it could be said Labour have acted quickly and saved the economy from these tremendous amounts of debt by acting so quickly and decisively. Mrs x The way you are looking at this problem is how the unions want us to look at the problem they have created. The costs of strikes are inevitable, however they are not a true cost as in it is costing the tax payer as such and even if it does cost the tax payer we sometimes need to take a hit to ensure we have a better outcome. For example rescheduled appointments are baked into the overall cost of the service that is already paid for, moving them is it really a cost and I know that is stupid question because we can make it look like a cost and we can also water it away to nothing. The government gave away to much for to little, and we lost the opportunity to have a bilateral contract that would have proved beneficial to both parties. The last paragraph is what I can continue to talk about, above it is our opinions that will not change. All those parties were going to get a pay rise, the amount that Labour allegedly overpaid is debatable but it's true that by settling these disputes and getting the workers back to work has saved a massive amount of debt to the economy.
So how can that not be seen as being prudent?
Mrs x
Giving in massively to the unions only teaches them that all thru have to do is bring the country to a standstill and they get a pay rise.
Worked brilliantly for Bob Crowe in London for many years "But have they? Or have they took the mature approach and brought avoidable industrial action to a conclusion saving more economic disaster befalling the country. Mrs x | |||
Reply privately (closed, thread got too big) | |||
"It is astonishing that people seem to believe that the public owe them a good salary, and the public should be grateful to uplift the salaries of junior doctors by huge amounts without question. The lack of economic awareness and a selfishness driven by megalomaniac unions and leaders is eating the NHS from inside out. Nobody forces another to take a role, they do out from their own interests and I would assume they thoroughly investigate the salary, hours, locations and opportunities before embarking on their career of choice. That was obviously an assumption on my part and I will say again, if our junior doctors entering the profession are not aware of the salary and opportunities, I would question their actual ability to be thorough enough as well as the calibre of the people applying, something doesn’t add up. This Labour government in one stroke of a pen just 26 days into office has created an issue that will be with us for years to come, the additional costs now added to the already overwhelming cost the NHS will destroy it. The pay off from Labour to the BMA was appalling, paying the union who had relentlessly brought the NHS to its knees impacting the most vulnerable in our society, the way the union walked out ahead of the election to remind people the tories were bad, they had nobody to negotiate with, we were being use as political lambs at the sacrifice, and Labour dug deep paying out £9 billion and blaming a black hole in finance that they had nearly 50% of a hand in. The leftist populists sucked it up, to the point I see the Labour big sell regurgitated word for word, what I don’t see is awareness of fact around the deficit, labours part in that or towards the way Labour are softening up for the big hits next month. I want any government we have to do well, if they don’t, I don’t! It makes sense to support, but already I’m seeing poor judgement and future hardship from a government that cares little for it later people. You are still ignoring the cost to the economy by the Tories refusing to negotiate with strikers. Cost us billions but that's ok it seems because it was the Tories. Mrs x I've heard this before, how did it cost us billions?I've given you costs in another thread. In just two years it cost the economy 4 billion due to train strikes. Hospitality sector cost to the economy by striked an estimated 3.5 billion. The NHS strikes another 1.5 billion. This is due to the fact the Tories did fuck all to sort out this situation. They didn't even enter the room to negotiate with the railways. So it could be said Labour have acted quickly and saved the economy from these tremendous amounts of debt by acting so quickly and decisively. Mrs x That’s one view. Mine is that the unions now rule the country, and Starmer is too weak / compromised to stand up to them It's not a view, these are the costs incurred by the Tories on our economy for refusing to deal with worker unrest. Labour sorted it and stopped these debts escalating. Or is it strength to allow debt to spiral so long as you don't negotiate with the unions? Mrs x" They haven’t though, they have increased the possibility of further industrial action. This is my point, offering a pay rise no problem, caving into demands a big problem, especially when it was a one sided deal. We as tax payers we rely on the government to do a good deal, one that offers benefits to both sides, unless that happens we do not have harmonised contract agreement. That has got my back up, the wasted opportunity to build a better working contract between the junior doctors and the public. | |||
Reply privately (closed, thread got too big) | |||
"Out of curiosity, should a train driver who earns £70k which is double the average salary in the UK get a pay rise? Why shouldn't they? At what point does anyone not deserve a pay rise? Mrs x When their cumulative pay rises have massively outstripped other public service workers " That's because they are in a high demand position which has an extremely limited available workforce. It's just supply and demand. Mrs x | |||
Reply privately (closed, thread got too big) | |||
"It is astonishing that people seem to believe that the public owe them a good salary, and the public should be grateful to uplift the salaries of junior doctors by huge amounts without question. The lack of economic awareness and a selfishness driven by megalomaniac unions and leaders is eating the NHS from inside out. Nobody forces another to take a role, they do out from their own interests and I would assume they thoroughly investigate the salary, hours, locations and opportunities before embarking on their career of choice. That was obviously an assumption on my part and I will say again, if our junior doctors entering the profession are not aware of the salary and opportunities, I would question their actual ability to be thorough enough as well as the calibre of the people applying, something doesn’t add up. This Labour government in one stroke of a pen just 26 days into office has created an issue that will be with us for years to come, the additional costs now added to the already overwhelming cost the NHS will destroy it. The pay off from Labour to the BMA was appalling, paying the union who had relentlessly brought the NHS to its knees impacting the most vulnerable in our society, the way the union walked out ahead of the election to remind people the tories were bad, they had nobody to negotiate with, we were being use as political lambs at the sacrifice, and Labour dug deep paying out £9 billion and blaming a black hole in finance that they had nearly 50% of a hand in. The leftist populists sucked it up, to the point I see the Labour big sell regurgitated word for word, what I don’t see is awareness of fact around the deficit, labours part in that or towards the way Labour are softening up for the big hits next month. I want any government we have to do well, if they don’t, I don’t! It makes sense to support, but already I’m seeing poor judgement and future hardship from a government that cares little for it later people. You are still ignoring the cost to the economy by the Tories refusing to negotiate with strikers. Cost us billions but that's ok it seems because it was the Tories. Mrs x I've heard this before, how did it cost us billions?I've given you costs in another thread. In just two years it cost the economy 4 billion due to train strikes. Hospitality sector cost to the economy by striked an estimated 3.5 billion. The NHS strikes another 1.5 billion. This is due to the fact the Tories did fuck all to sort out this situation. They didn't even enter the room to negotiate with the railways. So it could be said Labour have acted quickly and saved the economy from these tremendous amounts of debt by acting so quickly and decisively. Mrs x That’s one view. Mine is that the unions now rule the country, and Starmer is too weak / compromised to stand up to them It's not a view, these are the costs incurred by the Tories on our economy for refusing to deal with worker unrest. Labour sorted it and stopped these debts escalating. Or is it strength to allow debt to spiral so long as you don't negotiate with the unions? Mrs x They haven’t though, they have increased the possibility of further industrial action. This is my point, offering a pay rise no problem, caving into demands a big problem, especially when it was a one sided deal. We as tax payers we rely on the government to do a good deal, one that offers benefits to both sides, unless that happens we do not have harmonised contract agreement. That has got my back up, the wasted opportunity to build a better working contract between the junior doctors and the public." They haven't caved in, they've given a pay rise to a group that haven't had one in over 3 years. According to the IMF and the BMA junior doctors have seen their pay decline by, and this is the smallest estimate, 16% since the Tories came into power. Both these bodies say the decline could actually be much more. So Labour have given them a pay rise for the last 3 years of less than this 16%. So not exactly caving in. And as for 'relying on government to do a good deal', what exactly were the Tories doing for the last 3 years. Allowing 9 billion of debt to accrue by not negotiating fuck all. So Labour have come in, stopped this debt accruing further on the economy by negotiating a deal, which was below the lowest figure estimated by the IMF and the BMA. So go on exactly how is this 'caving in'? Mrs x | |||
Reply privately (closed, thread got too big) | |||
"Out of curiosity, should a train driver who earns £70k which is double the average salary in the UK get a pay rise? Why shouldn't they? At what point does anyone not deserve a pay rise? Mrs x When their cumulative pay rises have massively outstripped other public service workers That's because they are in a high demand position which has an extremely limited available workforce. It's just supply and demand. Mrs x" No, it's because they are in a job that allows them to bl@ckmaiI the public. That's how strikes work - the preserve of group bullies. If you're a blacksmith or a roofer you're screwed, | |||
Reply privately (closed, thread got too big) | |||
"Out of curiosity, should a train driver who earns £70k which is double the average salary in the UK get a pay rise? Why shouldn't they? At what point does anyone not deserve a pay rise? Mrs x When their cumulative pay rises have massively outstripped other public service workers That's because they are in a high demand position which has an extremely limited available workforce. It's just supply and demand. Mrs x No, it's because they are in a job that allows them to bl@ckmaiI the public. That's how strikes work - the preserve of group bullies. If you're a blacksmith or a roofer you're screwed," They aren't bullies, they are a uniquely skilled group that can demand a certain rate for their services. Do you think footballers, posters, actors, artists etc are bullies or are their ability to gain above average renumeration for their labour bullying too? It is simple supply and demand. If more people could drive trains they couldn't ask, or get, the salaries they demand. Mrs x | |||
Reply privately (closed, thread got too big) | |||
"Out of curiosity, should a train driver who earns £70k which is double the average salary in the UK get a pay rise? Why shouldn't they? At what point does anyone not deserve a pay rise? Mrs x When their cumulative pay rises have massively outstripped other public service workers That's because they are in a high demand position which has an extremely limited available workforce. It's just supply and demand. Mrs x No, it's because they are in a job that allows them to bl@ckmaiI the public. That's how strikes work - the preserve of group bullies. If you're a blacksmith or a roofer you're screwed,They aren't bullies, they are a uniquely skilled group that can demand a certain rate for their services. Do you think footballers, posters, actors, artists etc are bullies or are their ability to gain above average renumeration for their labour bullying too? It is simple supply and demand. If more people could drive trains they couldn't ask, or get, the salaries they demand. Mrs x" They are a group in a unique position that they use sick people as pawns and their union capitalises the situation, to support a party coming into power. It smacks of hypocrisy and cronyism, I thought this was a Tory trait, how wrong are we. As for the train drivers, they could get more people to drive trains but the unions won’t let them… | |||
Reply privately (closed, thread got too big) | |||
"Out of curiosity, should a train driver who earns £70k which is double the average salary in the UK get a pay rise? Why shouldn't they? At what point does anyone not deserve a pay rise? Mrs x When their cumulative pay rises have massively outstripped other public service workers That's because they are in a high demand position which has an extremely limited available workforce. It's just supply and demand. Mrs x No, it's because they are in a job that allows them to bl@ckmaiI the public. That's how strikes work - the preserve of group bullies. If you're a blacksmith or a roofer you're screwed,They aren't bullies, they are a uniquely skilled group that can demand a certain rate for their services. Do you think footballers, posters, actors, artists etc are bullies or are their ability to gain above average renumeration for their labour bullying too? It is simple supply and demand. If more people could drive trains they couldn't ask, or get, the salaries they demand. Mrs x They are a group in a unique position that they use sick people as pawns and their union capitalises the situation, to support a party coming into power. It smacks of hypocrisy and cronyism, I thought this was a Tory trait, how wrong are we. As for the train drivers, they could get more people to drive trains but the unions won’t let them… " Well they didn't use the sick people very well for the previous 3 years when they got fuck all, were inflation was running at record levels and the cronyism you mention was rampant during Covid. But no matter what it will be Labours fault. You'll spin it round to that I'm sure. As for hypocrisy. I'm sure Labour said they'd sought out these strikes before they were elected. They have and for less than the amount the IMF and BMA said the junior doctors had seen their pay decline under the Tories. Think ill have to look up the definition of hypocrisy because my understanding is that it doesn't mean you'll say you'll do something and then you actually do it. As for the railways, Aslef don't restrict the number of drivers. There's a set number which is agreed according to the number of routes and the traction required to service these routes. Mrs x | |||
Reply privately (closed, thread got too big) | |||
"Out of curiosity, should a train driver who earns £70k which is double the average salary in the UK get a pay rise? Why shouldn't they? At what point does anyone not deserve a pay rise? Mrs x When their cumulative pay rises have massively outstripped other public service workers That's because they are in a high demand position which has an extremely limited available workforce. It's just supply and demand. Mrs x No, it's because they are in a job that allows them to bl@ckmaiI the public. That's how strikes work - the preserve of group bullies. If you're a blacksmith or a roofer you're screwed,They aren't bullies, they are a uniquely skilled group that can demand a certain rate for their services. Do you think footballers, posters, actors, artists etc are bullies or are their ability to gain above average renumeration for their labour bullying too? It is simple supply and demand. If more people could drive trains they couldn't ask, or get, the salaries they demand. Mrs x They are a group in a unique position that they use sick people as pawns and their union capitalises the situation, to support a party coming into power. It smacks of hypocrisy and cronyism, I thought this was a Tory trait, how wrong are we. As for the train drivers, they could get more people to drive trains but the unions won’t let them… Well they didn't use the sick people very well for the previous 3 years when they got fuck all, were inflation was running at record levels and the cronyism you mention was rampant during Covid. But no matter what it will be Labours fault. You'll spin it round to that I'm sure. As for hypocrisy. I'm sure Labour said they'd sought out these strikes before they were elected. They have and for less than the amount the IMF and BMA said the junior doctors had seen their pay decline under the Tories. Think ill have to look up the definition of hypocrisy because my understanding is that it doesn't mean you'll say you'll do something and then you actually do it. As for the railways, Aslef don't restrict the number of drivers. There's a set number which is agreed according to the number of routes and the traction required to service these routes. Mrs x" I think you need to look within before lecturing others about hypocrisy | |||
Reply privately (closed, thread got too big) | |||
"Out of curiosity, should a train driver who earns £70k which is double the average salary in the UK get a pay rise? Why shouldn't they? At what point does anyone not deserve a pay rise? Mrs x When their cumulative pay rises have massively outstripped other public service workers That's because they are in a high demand position which has an extremely limited available workforce. It's just supply and demand. Mrs x No, it's because they are in a job that allows them to bl@ckmaiI the public. That's how strikes work - the preserve of group bullies. If you're a blacksmith or a roofer you're screwed,They aren't bullies, they are a uniquely skilled group that can demand a certain rate for their services. Do you think footballers, posters, actors, artists etc are bullies or are their ability to gain above average renumeration for their labour bullying too? It is simple supply and demand. If more people could drive trains they couldn't ask, or get, the salaries they demand. Mrs x They are a group in a unique position that they use sick people as pawns and their union capitalises the situation, to support a party coming into power. It smacks of hypocrisy and cronyism, I thought this was a Tory trait, how wrong are we. As for the train drivers, they could get more people to drive trains but the unions won’t let them… Well they didn't use the sick people very well for the previous 3 years when they got fuck all, were inflation was running at record levels and the cronyism you mention was rampant during Covid. But no matter what it will be Labours fault. You'll spin it round to that I'm sure. As for hypocrisy. I'm sure Labour said they'd sought out these strikes before they were elected. They have and for less than the amount the IMF and BMA said the junior doctors had seen their pay decline under the Tories. Think ill have to look up the definition of hypocrisy because my understanding is that it doesn't mean you'll say you'll do something and then you actually do it. As for the railways, Aslef don't restrict the number of drivers. There's a set number which is agreed according to the number of routes and the traction required to service these routes. Mrs x I think you need to look within before lecturing others about hypocrisy " Why have I upset you? Mrs x | |||
Reply privately (closed, thread got too big) | |||
"Out of curiosity, should a train driver who earns £70k which is double the average salary in the UK get a pay rise? Why shouldn't they? At what point does anyone not deserve a pay rise? Mrs x When their cumulative pay rises have massively outstripped other public service workers That's because they are in a high demand position which has an extremely limited available workforce. It's just supply and demand. Mrs x No, it's because they are in a job that allows them to bl@ckmaiI the public. That's how strikes work - the preserve of group bullies. If you're a blacksmith or a roofer you're screwed,They aren't bullies, they are a uniquely skilled group that can demand a certain rate for their services. Do you think footballers, posters, actors, artists etc are bullies or are their ability to gain above average renumeration for their labour bullying too? It is simple supply and demand. If more people could drive trains they couldn't ask, or get, the salaries they demand. Mrs x They are a group in a unique position that they use sick people as pawns and their union capitalises the situation, to support a party coming into power. It smacks of hypocrisy and cronyism, I thought this was a Tory trait, how wrong are we. As for the train drivers, they could get more people to drive trains but the unions won’t let them… Well they didn't use the sick people very well for the previous 3 years when they got fuck all, were inflation was running at record levels and the cronyism you mention was rampant during Covid. But no matter what it will be Labours fault. You'll spin it round to that I'm sure. As for hypocrisy. I'm sure Labour said they'd sought out these strikes before they were elected. They have and for less than the amount the IMF and BMA said the junior doctors had seen their pay decline under the Tories. Think ill have to look up the definition of hypocrisy because my understanding is that it doesn't mean you'll say you'll do something and then you actually do it. As for the railways, Aslef don't restrict the number of drivers. There's a set number which is agreed according to the number of routes and the traction required to service these routes. Mrs x I think you need to look within before lecturing others about hypocrisy Why have I upset you? Mrs x" I'm it upset it's just an observation of your posts in general You shouldn't accuse others of being a hypocrite when your one yourself | |||
Reply privately (closed, thread got too big) | |||
"It is astonishing that people seem to believe that the public owe them a good salary, and the public should be grateful to uplift the salaries of junior doctors by huge amounts without question. The lack of economic awareness and a selfishness driven by megalomaniac unions and leaders is eating the NHS from inside out. Nobody forces another to take a role, they do out from their own interests and I would assume they thoroughly investigate the salary, hours, locations and opportunities before embarking on their career of choice. That was obviously an assumption on my part and I will say again, if our junior doctors entering the profession are not aware of the salary and opportunities, I would question their actual ability to be thorough enough as well as the calibre of the people applying, something doesn’t add up. This Labour government in one stroke of a pen just 26 days into office has created an issue that will be with us for years to come, the additional costs now added to the already overwhelming cost the NHS will destroy it. The pay off from Labour to the BMA was appalling, paying the union who had relentlessly brought the NHS to its knees impacting the most vulnerable in our society, the way the union walked out ahead of the election to remind people the tories were bad, they had nobody to negotiate with, we were being use as political lambs at the sacrifice, and Labour dug deep paying out £9 billion and blaming a black hole in finance that they had nearly 50% of a hand in. The leftist populists sucked it up, to the point I see the Labour big sell regurgitated word for word, what I don’t see is awareness of fact around the deficit, labours part in that or towards the way Labour are softening up for the big hits next month. I want any government we have to do well, if they don’t, I don’t! It makes sense to support, but already I’m seeing poor judgement and future hardship from a government that cares little for it later people. You are still ignoring the cost to the economy by the Tories refusing to negotiate with strikers. Cost us billions but that's ok it seems because it was the Tories. Mrs x I've heard this before, how did it cost us billions?I've given you costs in another thread. In just two years it cost the economy 4 billion due to train strikes. Hospitality sector cost to the economy by striked an estimated 3.5 billion. The NHS strikes another 1.5 billion. This is due to the fact the Tories did fuck all to sort out this situation. They didn't even enter the room to negotiate with the railways. So it could be said Labour have acted quickly and saved the economy from these tremendous amounts of debt by acting so quickly and decisively. Mrs x The way you are looking at this problem is how the unions want us to look at the problem they have created. The costs of strikes are inevitable, however they are not a true cost as in it is costing the tax payer as such and even if it does cost the tax payer we sometimes need to take a hit to ensure we have a better outcome. For example rescheduled appointments are baked into the overall cost of the service that is already paid for, moving them is it really a cost and I know that is stupid question because we can make it look like a cost and we can also water it away to nothing. The government gave away to much for to little, and we lost the opportunity to have a bilateral contract that would have proved beneficial to both parties. The last paragraph is what I can continue to talk about, above it is our opinions that will not change. All those parties were going to get a pay rise, the amount that Labour allegedly overpaid is debatable but it's true that by settling these disputes and getting the workers back to work has saved a massive amount of debt to the economy.
So how can that not be seen as being prudent?
Mrs x
Giving in massively to the unions only teaches them that all thru have to do is bring the country to a standstill and they get a pay rise.
Worked brilliantly for Bob Crowe in London for many years But have they? Or have they took the mature approach and brought avoidable industrial action to a conclusion saving more economic disaster befalling the country.
Mrs x"You have clearly made up your mind that caving in to the unions is a genius move that saves money. I see things differently | |||
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"Caving to demands of Unions doesn't save money as they will always demand more " Agreed. It trains them to do so. | |||
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"It is astonishing that people seem to believe that the public owe them a good salary, and the public should be grateful to uplift the salaries of junior doctors by huge amounts without question. The lack of economic awareness and a selfishness driven by megalomaniac unions and leaders is eating the NHS from inside out. Nobody forces another to take a role, they do out from their own interests and I would assume they thoroughly investigate the salary, hours, locations and opportunities before embarking on their career of choice. That was obviously an assumption on my part and I will say again, if our junior doctors entering the profession are not aware of the salary and opportunities, I would question their actual ability to be thorough enough as well as the calibre of the people applying, something doesn’t add up. This Labour government in one stroke of a pen just 26 days into office has created an issue that will be with us for years to come, the additional costs now added to the already overwhelming cost the NHS will destroy it. The pay off from Labour to the BMA was appalling, paying the union who had relentlessly brought the NHS to its knees impacting the most vulnerable in our society, the way the union walked out ahead of the election to remind people the tories were bad, they had nobody to negotiate with, we were being use as political lambs at the sacrifice, and Labour dug deep paying out £9 billion and blaming a black hole in finance that they had nearly 50% of a hand in. The leftist populists sucked it up, to the point I see the Labour big sell regurgitated word for word, what I don’t see is awareness of fact around the deficit, labours part in that or towards the way Labour are softening up for the big hits next month. I want any government we have to do well, if they don’t, I don’t! It makes sense to support, but already I’m seeing poor judgement and future hardship from a government that cares little for it later people. You are still ignoring the cost to the economy by the Tories refusing to negotiate with strikers. Cost us billions but that's ok it seems because it was the Tories. Mrs x I've heard this before, how did it cost us billions?I've given you costs in another thread. In just two years it cost the economy 4 billion due to train strikes. Hospitality sector cost to the economy by striked an estimated 3.5 billion. The NHS strikes another 1.5 billion. This is due to the fact the Tories did fuck all to sort out this situation. They didn't even enter the room to negotiate with the railways. So it could be said Labour have acted quickly and saved the economy from these tremendous amounts of debt by acting so quickly and decisively. Mrs x The way you are looking at this problem is how the unions want us to look at the problem they have created. The costs of strikes are inevitable, however they are not a true cost as in it is costing the tax payer as such and even if it does cost the tax payer we sometimes need to take a hit to ensure we have a better outcome. For example rescheduled appointments are baked into the overall cost of the service that is already paid for, moving them is it really a cost and I know that is stupid question because we can make it look like a cost and we can also water it away to nothing. The government gave away to much for to little, and we lost the opportunity to have a bilateral contract that would have proved beneficial to both parties. The last paragraph is what I can continue to talk about, above it is our opinions that will not change. All those parties were going to get a pay rise, the amount that Labour allegedly overpaid is debatable but it's true that by settling these disputes and getting the workers back to work has saved a massive amount of debt to the economy.
So how can that not be seen as being prudent?
Mrs x
Giving in massively to the unions only teaches them that all thru have to do is bring the country to a standstill and they get a pay rise.
Worked brilliantly for Bob Crowe in London for many years But have they? Or have they took the mature approach and brought avoidable industrial action to a conclusion saving more economic disaster befalling the country.
Mrs x
You have clearly made up your mind that caving in to the unions is a genius move that saves money.
I see things differently "Exactly! Why take from pensioners to pay off highly paid train drivers is an awful idea What happened to the windfall tax claim on energy companies starmer made? | |||
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"Out of curiosity, should a train driver who earns £70k which is double the average salary in the UK get a pay rise? " Yet am sure your ok with bankers, hedge fund managers etc making unlimited bonuses playing with other people's money. | |||
Reply privately (closed, thread got too big) | |||
"Out of curiosity, should a train driver who earns £70k which is double the average salary in the UK get a pay rise? Why shouldn't they? At what point does anyone not deserve a pay rise? Mrs x When their cumulative pay rises have massively outstripped other public service workers That's because they are in a high demand position which has an extremely limited available workforce. It's just supply and demand. Mrs x No, it's because they are in a job that allows them to bl@ckmaiI the public. That's how strikes work - the preserve of group bullies. If you're a blacksmith or a roofer you're screwed,They aren't bullies, they are a uniquely skilled group that can demand a certain rate for their services. Do you think footballers, posters, actors, artists etc are bullies or are their ability to gain above average renumeration for their labour bullying too? It is simple supply and demand. If more people could drive trains they couldn't ask, or get, the salaries they demand. Mrs x They are a group in a unique position that they use sick people as pawns and their union capitalises the situation, to support a party coming into power. It smacks of hypocrisy and cronyism, I thought this was a Tory trait, how wrong are we. As for the train drivers, they could get more people to drive trains but the unions won’t let them… Well they didn't use the sick people very well for the previous 3 years when they got fuck all, were inflation was running at record levels and the cronyism you mention was rampant during Covid. But no matter what it will be Labours fault. You'll spin it round to that I'm sure. As for hypocrisy. I'm sure Labour said they'd sought out these strikes before they were elected. They have and for less than the amount the IMF and BMA said the junior doctors had seen their pay decline under the Tories. Think ill have to look up the definition of hypocrisy because my understanding is that it doesn't mean you'll say you'll do something and then you actually do it. As for the railways, Aslef don't restrict the number of drivers. There's a set number which is agreed according to the number of routes and the traction required to service these routes. Mrs x I think you need to look within before lecturing others about hypocrisy Why have I upset you? Mrs x I'm it upset it's just an observation of your posts in general You shouldn't accuse others of being a hypocrite when your one yourself " You've not read what I've posted. I responded to a post about Labours hypocrisy and how I think they haven't been. I haven't called anyone a hypocrite. What you are doing is attacking me personally because of issues you have with some of my previous posts. Can you please stop this and I hope you don't escalate this like you have previously using profanity towards me. Also if you think I've been a hypocrite can you point this out please, with some facts and we can debate this without the need to be personally insulting. Thanks in anticipation. Mrs x | |||
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"Caving to demands of Unions doesn't save money as they will always demand more " So let's damage the economy by the tune of 9 billion, stick our heads in the sand and ignore totally the impact of looking after the workforce properly. 25 million a day lost to just the railway strikes, which the Tories just happily ignored. But you seem happy to accept that. Mrs x | |||
Reply privately (closed, thread got too big) | |||
"It is astonishing that people seem to believe that the public owe them a good salary, and the public should be grateful to uplift the salaries of junior doctors by huge amounts without question. The lack of economic awareness and a selfishness driven by megalomaniac unions and leaders is eating the NHS from inside out. Nobody forces another to take a role, they do out from their own interests and I would assume they thoroughly investigate the salary, hours, locations and opportunities before embarking on their career of choice. That was obviously an assumption on my part and I will say again, if our junior doctors entering the profession are not aware of the salary and opportunities, I would question their actual ability to be thorough enough as well as the calibre of the people applying, something doesn’t add up. This Labour government in one stroke of a pen just 26 days into office has created an issue that will be with us for years to come, the additional costs now added to the already overwhelming cost the NHS will destroy it. The pay off from Labour to the BMA was appalling, paying the union who had relentlessly brought the NHS to its knees impacting the most vulnerable in our society, the way the union walked out ahead of the election to remind people the tories were bad, they had nobody to negotiate with, we were being use as political lambs at the sacrifice, and Labour dug deep paying out £9 billion and blaming a black hole in finance that they had nearly 50% of a hand in. The leftist populists sucked it up, to the point I see the Labour big sell regurgitated word for word, what I don’t see is awareness of fact around the deficit, labours part in that or towards the way Labour are softening up for the big hits next month. I want any government we have to do well, if they don’t, I don’t! It makes sense to support, but already I’m seeing poor judgement and future hardship from a government that cares little for it later people. You are still ignoring the cost to the economy by the Tories refusing to negotiate with strikers. Cost us billions but that's ok it seems because it was the Tories. Mrs x I've heard this before, how did it cost us billions?I've given you costs in another thread. In just two years it cost the economy 4 billion due to train strikes. Hospitality sector cost to the economy by striked an estimated 3.5 billion. The NHS strikes another 1.5 billion. This is due to the fact the Tories did fuck all to sort out this situation. They didn't even enter the room to negotiate with the railways. So it could be said Labour have acted quickly and saved the economy from these tremendous amounts of debt by acting so quickly and decisively. Mrs x The way you are looking at this problem is how the unions want us to look at the problem they have created. The costs of strikes are inevitable, however they are not a true cost as in it is costing the tax payer as such and even if it does cost the tax payer we sometimes need to take a hit to ensure we have a better outcome. For example rescheduled appointments are baked into the overall cost of the service that is already paid for, moving them is it really a cost and I know that is stupid question because we can make it look like a cost and we can also water it away to nothing. The government gave away to much for to little, and we lost the opportunity to have a bilateral contract that would have proved beneficial to both parties. The last paragraph is what I can continue to talk about, above it is our opinions that will not change. All those parties were going to get a pay rise, the amount that Labour allegedly overpaid is debatable but it's true that by settling these disputes and getting the workers back to work has saved a massive amount of debt to the economy.
So how can that not be seen as being prudent?
Mrs x
Giving in massively to the unions only teaches them that all thru have to do is bring the country to a standstill and they get a pay rise.
Worked brilliantly for Bob Crowe in London for many years But have they? Or have they took the mature approach and brought avoidable industrial action to a conclusion saving more economic disaster befalling the country.
Mrs x
You have clearly made up your mind that caving in to the unions is a genius move that saves money.
I see things differently "It's saved money here, 9 billion it cost the economy, conservatively, during these strikes. You'd rather that continue, showing real strength there. Mrs x | |||
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"Out of curiosity, should a train driver who earns £70k which is double the average salary in the UK get a pay rise? Yet am sure your ok with bankers, hedge fund managers etc making unlimited bonuses playing with other people's money. " Sunak earned 20 million one year and paid next to no tax on it, not in this country anyway. But he didn't pay a payrise for over 3 years to the doctors. Very fair, how dare tge peasants want paying properly, the cheek of it.... Mrs x | |||
Reply privately (closed, thread got too big) | |||
"Caving to demands of Unions doesn't save money as they will always demand more So let's damage the economy by the tune of 9 billion, stick our heads in the sand and ignore totally the impact of looking after the workforce properly. 25 million a day lost to just the railway strikes, which the Tories just happily ignored. But you seem happy to accept that. Mrs x" You are always quick to complain when you feel that others have misrepresented your posts, then you do the exact same thing yourself. Please stick to what i actually post rather than trying to spin it | |||
Reply privately (closed, thread got too big) | |||
"It is astonishing that people seem to believe that the public owe them a good salary, and the public should be grateful to uplift the salaries of junior doctors by huge amounts without question. The lack of economic awareness and a selfishness driven by megalomaniac unions and leaders is eating the NHS from inside out. Nobody forces another to take a role, they do out from their own interests and I would assume they thoroughly investigate the salary, hours, locations and opportunities before embarking on their career of choice. That was obviously an assumption on my part and I will say again, if our junior doctors entering the profession are not aware of the salary and opportunities, I would question their actual ability to be thorough enough as well as the calibre of the people applying, something doesn’t add up. This Labour government in one stroke of a pen just 26 days into office has created an issue that will be with us for years to come, the additional costs now added to the already overwhelming cost the NHS will destroy it. The pay off from Labour to the BMA was appalling, paying the union who had relentlessly brought the NHS to its knees impacting the most vulnerable in our society, the way the union walked out ahead of the election to remind people the tories were bad, they had nobody to negotiate with, we were being use as political lambs at the sacrifice, and Labour dug deep paying out £9 billion and blaming a black hole in finance that they had nearly 50% of a hand in. The leftist populists sucked it up, to the point I see the Labour big sell regurgitated word for word, what I don’t see is awareness of fact around the deficit, labours part in that or towards the way Labour are softening up for the big hits next month. I want any government we have to do well, if they don’t, I don’t! It makes sense to support, but already I’m seeing poor judgement and future hardship from a government that cares little for it later people. You are still ignoring the cost to the economy by the Tories refusing to negotiate with strikers. Cost us billions but that's ok it seems because it was the Tories. Mrs x I've heard this before, how did it cost us billions?I've given you costs in another thread. In just two years it cost the economy 4 billion due to train strikes. Hospitality sector cost to the economy by striked an estimated 3.5 billion. The NHS strikes another 1.5 billion. This is due to the fact the Tories did fuck all to sort out this situation. They didn't even enter the room to negotiate with the railways. So it could be said Labour have acted quickly and saved the economy from these tremendous amounts of debt by acting so quickly and decisively. Mrs x The way you are looking at this problem is how the unions want us to look at the problem they have created. The costs of strikes are inevitable, however they are not a true cost as in it is costing the tax payer as such and even if it does cost the tax payer we sometimes need to take a hit to ensure we have a better outcome. For example rescheduled appointments are baked into the overall cost of the service that is already paid for, moving them is it really a cost and I know that is stupid question because we can make it look like a cost and we can also water it away to nothing. The government gave away to much for to little, and we lost the opportunity to have a bilateral contract that would have proved beneficial to both parties. The last paragraph is what I can continue to talk about, above it is our opinions that will not change. All those parties were going to get a pay rise, the amount that Labour allegedly overpaid is debatable but it's true that by settling these disputes and getting the workers back to work has saved a massive amount of debt to the economy.
So how can that not be seen as being prudent?
Mrs x
Giving in massively to the unions only teaches them that all thru have to do is bring the country to a standstill and they get a pay rise.
Worked brilliantly for Bob Crowe in London for many years But have they? Or have they took the mature approach and brought avoidable industrial action to a conclusion saving more economic disaster befalling the country.
Mrs x
You have clearly made up your mind that caving in to the unions is a genius move that saves money.
I see things differently It's saved money here, 9 billion it cost the economy, conservatively, during these strikes. You'd rather that continue, showing real strength there.
Mrs x".. again, something I never said. Stop twisting my posts. | |||
Reply privately (closed, thread got too big) | |||
"Caving to demands of Unions doesn't save money as they will always demand more So let's damage the economy by the tune of 9 billion, stick our heads in the sand and ignore totally the impact of looking after the workforce properly. 25 million a day lost to just the railway strikes, which the Tories just happily ignored. But you seem happy to accept that. Mrs x" No but I guess you think taking money from pensioners to pay railway workers is the right move? | |||
Reply privately (closed, thread got too big) | |||
"Caving to demands of Unions doesn't save money as they will always demand more So let's damage the economy by the tune of 9 billion, stick our heads in the sand and ignore totally the impact of looking after the workforce properly. 25 million a day lost to just the railway strikes, which the Tories just happily ignored. But you seem happy to accept that. Mrs x No but I guess you think taking money from pensioners to pay railway workers is the right move? " I know you seem like a clever guy and you know that's not how it works. But don't let the truth get in the way of a hood soundbite. So why shouldn't train drivers have a pay rise, inflation has gone up, everything they have to pay out for has increased but you expect their wages to remain the same, why is that? Mrs x | |||
Reply privately (closed, thread got too big) | |||
"Caving to demands of Unions doesn't save money as they will always demand more So let's damage the economy by the tune of 9 billion, stick our heads in the sand and ignore totally the impact of looking after the workforce properly. 25 million a day lost to just the railway strikes, which the Tories just happily ignored. But you seem happy to accept that. Mrs x No but I guess you think taking money from pensioners to pay railway workers is the right move? I know you seem like a clever guy and you know that's not how it works. But don't let the truth get in the way of a hood soundbite. So why shouldn't train drivers have a pay rise, inflation has gone up, everything they have to pay out for has increased but you expect their wages to remain the same, why is that? Mrs x" Nobody begrudges them a fair raise comparable with others. But we dislike having a gun held to our heads with constant strikes and disruption just because they have the power to inflict misery. | |||
Reply privately (closed, thread got too big) | |||
"Caving to demands of Unions doesn't save money as they will always demand more So let's damage the economy by the tune of 9 billion, stick our heads in the sand and ignore totally the impact of looking after the workforce properly. 25 million a day lost to just the railway strikes, which the Tories just happily ignored. But you seem happy to accept that. Mrs x No but I guess you think taking money from pensioners to pay railway workers is the right move? I know you seem like a clever guy and you know that's not how it works. But don't let the truth get in the way of a hood soundbite. So why shouldn't train drivers have a pay rise, inflation has gone up, everything they have to pay out for has increased but you expect their wages to remain the same, why is that? Mrs x Nobody begrudges them a fair raise comparable with others. But we dislike having a gun held to our heads with constant strikes and disruption just because they have the power to inflict misery." couldn’t agree more | |||
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""Why should taxpayers maintain nearly 1.7 million unemployed migrant workers — a uniquely British oxymoron — at an annual cost of £8 billion, while suffering austerity themselves?"" they absolutely should not it’s only going to go up god knows the cost in 5 years time | |||
Reply privately (closed, thread got too big) | |||
"Caving to demands of Unions doesn't save money as they will always demand more So let's damage the economy by the tune of 9 billion, stick our heads in the sand and ignore totally the impact of looking after the workforce properly. 25 million a day lost to just the railway strikes, which the Tories just happily ignored. But you seem happy to accept that. Mrs x No but I guess you think taking money from pensioners to pay railway workers is the right move? I know you seem like a clever guy and you know that's not how it works. But don't let the truth get in the way of a hood soundbite. So why shouldn't train drivers have a pay rise, inflation has gone up, everything they have to pay out for has increased but you expect their wages to remain the same, why is that? Mrs x Nobody begrudges them a fair raise comparable with others. But we dislike having a gun held to our heads with constant strikes and disruption just because they have the power to inflict misery." I understand it seems like that but it's not really is it. They just work in a sector that affects the public and that's why it feels this way. You say you don't begrudge them a pay rise, it's the 'gun to the head' thing that's annoying for you. So how do you think they should respond to get what they consider is a fair deal? They've already gone through the whole process of industrial action before they've arrived at strike action but this has not proved fruitful for them. So should they be any different and not be able to withdraw their labour if they are unhappy with their working conditions? So if you believe that then what should they do? Mrs x | |||
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""Why should taxpayers maintain nearly 1.7 million unemployed migrant workers — a uniquely British oxymoron — at an annual cost of £8 billion, while suffering austerity themselves?"" Isn't that an issue from the previous incumbents, they should have dealt with this shouldn't they? Mrs x | |||
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"Caving to demands of Unions doesn't save money as they will always demand more So let's damage the economy by the tune of 9 billion, stick our heads in the sand and ignore totally the impact of looking after the workforce properly. 25 million a day lost to just the railway strikes, which the Tories just happily ignored. But you seem happy to accept that. Mrs x No but I guess you think taking money from pensioners to pay railway workers is the right move? I know you seem like a clever guy and you know that's not how it works. But don't let the truth get in the way of a hood soundbite. So why shouldn't train drivers have a pay rise, inflation has gone up, everything they have to pay out for has increased but you expect their wages to remain the same, why is that? Mrs x Nobody begrudges them a fair raise comparable with others. But we dislike having a gun held to our heads with constant strikes and disruption just because they have the power to inflict misery.couldn’t agree more " So how do you resolve this then? Mrs x | |||
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""Why should taxpayers maintain nearly 1.7 million unemployed migrant workers — a uniquely British oxymoron — at an annual cost of £8 billion, while suffering austerity themselves?"Isn't that an issue from the previous incumbents, they should have dealt with this shouldn't they? Mrs x" Labour are in power now. They had a choice: Cut winter fuel payments for the elderly or address issue of the 1.7 million unemployed migrants. They chose the winter fuel payments introduced by Gordon Brown. Nothing to do with previous governments, | |||
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""Why should taxpayers maintain nearly 1.7 million unemployed migrant workers — a uniquely British oxymoron — at an annual cost of £8 billion, while suffering austerity themselves?"Isn't that an issue from the previous incumbents, they should have dealt with this shouldn't they? Mrs x Labour are in power now. They had a choice: Cut winter fuel payments for the elderly or address issue of the 1.7 million unemployed migrants. They chose the winter fuel payments introduced by Gordon Brown. Nothing to do with previous governments," Are these migrants legal? Mrs x | |||
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""Why should taxpayers maintain nearly 1.7 million unemployed migrant workers — a uniquely British oxymoron — at an annual cost of £8 billion, while suffering austerity themselves?"Isn't that an issue from the previous incumbents, they should have dealt with this shouldn't they? Mrs x Labour are in power now. They had a choice: Cut winter fuel payments for the elderly or address issue of the 1.7 million unemployed migrants. They chose the winter fuel payments introduced by Gordon Brown. Nothing to do with previous governments,Are these migrants legal? I would think they must be. Here on 'work' visas. Mrs x" | |||
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"The issue for me is that I saw this coming "ho look what has happens, our plans are out of the window" Poppycock I say. I felt let down even before the election, no change as promised just sucking more hope out of peoples lives, as well as their money. Maybe enough people will learn come the next election and purposefully choose not to vote for either labour or Tory. Anyway they have a test tonight the WFA vote, so let it be." If political parties told the truth in elections, especially those in Government, the most likely candidate to be elected would be "None of the above". Fear not Labour will win the WFA vote with their super majority. | |||
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"Who in here voted for Labour and be honest?" haha don’t think many will stand up and say they voted for them | |||
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""Why should taxpayers maintain nearly 1.7 million unemployed migrant workers — a uniquely British oxymoron — at an annual cost of £8 billion, while suffering austerity themselves?"Isn't that an issue from the previous incumbents, they should have dealt with this shouldn't they? Mrs x Labour are in power now. They had a choice: Cut winter fuel payments for the elderly or address issue of the 1.7 million unemployed migrants. They chose the winter fuel payments introduced by Gordon Brown. Nothing to do with previous governments,Are these migrants legal? I would think they must be. Here on 'work' visas. Mrs x" I'm not clued up on this area, do they have to be deported? I do not know, it would be a guess. Choosing something you prefer over something you don't agree with is easy to do but without knowing the exact details and impact it's not the best debating tool I think. In an ideal world nobody should lose money or pay more, pensioners, parents with more than 2 kids, private school fees and so on. But the money has to come from somewhere. In an ideal world the Tories wouldn't have fucked it up so badly, knew they were about to be kicked out of power and so decided to leave the mess for someone else to clean up. Mrs x | |||
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"Who in here voted for Labour and be honest?haha don’t think many will stand up and say they voted for them " I did, Mrs x | |||
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"Who in here voted for Labour and be honest?haha don’t think many will stand up and say they voted for them " Well of course not because they know deep in their hearts that Labour are much worse then the Tories | |||
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"Who in here voted for Labour and be honest?haha don’t think many will stand up and say they voted for them I did, Mrs x" thats obvious lol | |||
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"Who in here voted for Labour and be honest?haha don’t think many will stand up and say they voted for them I did, Mrs x" It's mot fair for you to take all the blame, several other people voted for them. Apparently a convicted drug dealer, released from prison early this morning, is now also a lifelong Labour voter. | |||
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"Who in here voted for Labour and be honest?haha don’t think many will stand up and say they voted for them I did, Mrs x thats obvious lol" I answered your question but people don't answer mine haha Mrs x | |||
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"Who in here voted for Labour and be honest?haha don’t think many will stand up and say they voted for them I did, Mrs x It's mot fair for you to take all the blame, several other people voted for them. Apparently a convicted drug dealer, released from prison early this morning, is now also a lifelong Labour voter." So long as Boris and that Rees Mogg don't come out of a Labour closet it will be ok, Mrs x | |||
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"Well folks I think that Labour won't last a year in government " Is that how it works? Mrs x | |||
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"Well folks I think that Labour won't last a year in government " Another prediction
Like Sadiq Khan not being re elected..
Plus several about reform etc..
God loves a trier..  | |||
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"And when the Labour Government implode it will be for the best " Why will it implode, what are you basing this upon? Parliament has only just returned from recess this month, what were you expecting, everything wrong in the last 14 years to be put right in 14 weeks and we could all fuck off and sun ourselves on a beach somewhere congratulating Labour on a job well done. I'd love to live in a world like that. Mrs x | |||
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"Who in here voted for Labour and be honest?haha don’t think many will stand up and say they voted for them Well of course not because they know deep in their hearts that Labour are much worse then the Tories" They’re not worse than the Tories! Jeez that is such a hot take. The Johnson-Truss-Sunak period has been a total shitshow. And instead of learning from that, it seems the Conservative party want more of the same judging by leadership contest. If they keep pulling to the right rather then drift closer to the centre, they can kiss goodbye to being in office for the next two parliament cycles (a decade). They need to grow up! Now I ain’t saying Labour are good! Far from it. For me personally they are a disaster. But worse than the Tories…!!!!!! Different yes. Worse? Let’s see in a few years time. | |||
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