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National Service
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Fuck no. Of it's time with a specific purpose of that moment. Not appropriate or needed now.
All that this bunch of clowns have rolled out is a promise to hold a forum on how it might be done, and no details. A desperate gimmick to draw in votes with no substance |
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The army don't even want it - imagine being landed with a bunch of teenagers who don't want to be there. They have neither the personnel nor the money to run it. It's just a desperate attempt to not lose the core Tory vote. |
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I shudder at the thought of teenagers being "forced" into positions of responsibility, especially the plan to use them in the NHS.
I worked at a homecare company for years, and the amount of teenagers who joined because the jobcentre pushed them into it - and were quietly shuffled out after a couple of weeks - was alarming.
The disrespect shown to clients was dreadful, being rude and curt with them, and I caught some of the little shits openly mocking them on more than one occasion. Vital paperwork left was unfinished (medication charts, etc). along with revolving-door appointments where they went in, got the paperwork signed, and pissed off afterwards without doing the work. This isn't leaving out when money went missing whilst I was shadowing a couple of teenagers, where they tried to pin it on me! It was only that I had a been there for years with had completely clean record and that all my clients liked me which stopped it being taken any further. The office quietly said that they new who probably had the money (a tenner, in case you were wondering) but this individual had been quietly let go, as the job "wasn't for her".
OK, I've been rambling a bit, and it's not exactly the same thing, but my previous experience of what happens when you force responsibility onto teens who really don't want a crimp in their lifestyle seems rather prescient. |
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"It's all empty promise bollocks.. Sunak getting desperate for votes."
I'm waiting for his promise to bring back "Jaws" crisps (the snack that bites back), Fuse chocolate bars and the Phillips Video-2000. |
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"It's all empty promise bollocks.. Sunak getting desperate for votes.
I'm waiting for his promise to bring back "Jaws" crisps (the snack that bites back), Fuse chocolate bars and the Phillips Video-2000."
 .. and full size curly wurlies  |
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Meh this idea has been hovering around for the past 3 decades, both Labour and Conservative have suggested it.
Done well it will provide insight and skills with broadening social circles. Done badly it will just be a costly disaster.
People automatically assume the military but its only got 30k spots. |
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"Meh this idea has been hovering around for the past 3 decades, both Labour and Conservative have suggested it.
"
Defence minister last week was quite firm there was no intention of NS plus when the Chief of the General Staff spoke in similar terms in January number 10 quickly said it wasnt an option..
When did Labour suggest it? |
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"Yes it should, for 2 years, but not the millitery version.
It should be used to supply workers for the farms, councils, NHS etc
But 18 year olds can already work in those fields if they want to"
But they don't by choice, this is optional & & why wait until they are 18 |
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"Yes it should, for 2 years, but not the millitery version.
It should be used to supply workers for the farms, councils, NHS etc
But 18 year olds can already work in those fields if they want to
But they don't by choice, this is optional & & why wait until they are 18"
What would you have chosen to do if it had been mandatory when you were 18? |
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"Yes it should, for 2 years, but not the millitery version.
It should be used to supply workers for the farms, councils, NHS etc
But 18 year olds can already work in those fields if they want to
But they don't by choice, this is optional & & why wait until they are 18
What would you have chosen to do if it had been mandatory when you were 18?"
I did not wait until I was 18, signed up for the millitery at 16 & fought in Dohfar, N. Ireland, Falklands war & 1st Gulf War over 30 years service. |
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By (user no longer on site) 17 weeks ago
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"Yes it should, for 2 years, but not the millitery version.
It should be used to supply workers for the farms, councils, NHS etc
But 18 year olds can already work in those fields if they want to
But they don't by choice, this is optional & & why wait until they are 18
What would you have chosen to do if it had been mandatory when you were 18?
I did not wait until I was 18, signed up for the millitery at 16 & fought in Dohfar, N. Ireland, Falklands war & 1st Gulf War over 30 years service."
as someone who served, are you in favour of having someone join your batillion who was manadated rather than volunteered ? |
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"Yes it should, for 2 years, but not the millitery version.
It should be used to supply workers for the farms, councils, NHS etc
But 18 year olds can already work in those fields if they want to
But they don't by choice, this is optional & & why wait until they are 18
What would you have chosen to do if it had been mandatory when you were 18?
I did not wait until I was 18, signed up for the millitery at 16 & fought in Dohfar, N. Ireland, Falklands war & 1st Gulf War over 30 years service."
That's great but I was asking what you'd have chosen from farms, councils and NHS. |
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"Yes it should, for 2 years, but not the millitery version.
It should be used to supply workers for the farms, councils, NHS etc
But 18 year olds can already work in those fields if they want to
But they don't by choice, this is optional & & why wait until they are 18
What would you have chosen to do if it had been mandatory when you were 18?
I did not wait until I was 18, signed up for the millitery at 16 & fought in Dohfar, N. Ireland, Falklands war & 1st Gulf War over 30 years service.as someone who served, are you in favour of having someone join your batillion who was manadated rather than volunteered ? "
I actually said NON military national service, these days the military is far too technical. |
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"Yes it should, for 2 years, but not the millitery version.
It should be used to supply workers for the farms, councils, NHS etc
But 18 year olds can already work in those fields if they want to
But they don't by choice, this is optional & & why wait until they are 18
What would you have chosen to do if it had been mandatory when you were 18?
I did not wait until I was 18, signed up for the millitery at 16 & fought in Dohfar, N. Ireland, Falklands war & 1st Gulf War over 30 years service.
That's great but I was asking what you'd have chosen from farms, councils and NHS. "
Ok my apologies. The NHS is probably the least practical, personally I would opt for the farms |
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I believe it should be.
While in Africa it was necessary and any 16 or older not at school did national service/call up. First 6 months training and then call up for duty. Many straight from school and made men out of them |
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By (user no longer on site) 17 weeks ago
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"Yes it should, for 2 years, but not the millitery version.
It should be used to supply workers for the farms, councils, NHS etc
But 18 year olds can already work in those fields if they want to
But they don't by choice, this is optional & & why wait until they are 18
What would you have chosen to do if it had been mandatory when you were 18?
I did not wait until I was 18, signed up for the millitery at 16 & fought in Dohfar, N. Ireland, Falklands war & 1st Gulf War over 30 years service.as someone who served, are you in favour of having someone join your batillion who was manadated rather than volunteered ?
I actually said NON military national service, these days the military is far too technical."
I hadn't seen what you said earlier but thank you for replying. Imo your views on ppl going into the military hole much more credece than those who have never served. |
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"I believe it should be.
While in Africa it was necessary and any 16 or older not at school did national service/call up. First 6 months training and then call up for duty. Many straight from school and made men out of them"
What about the women? |
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"I believe it should be.
While in Africa it was necessary and any 16 or older not at school did national service/call up. First 6 months training and then call up for duty. Many straight from school and made men out of them
What about the women?"
In those days none called up for military service. But many volunteered for services in back up roles |
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By *irldnCouple 17 weeks ago
Brighton |
"I believe it should be.
While in Africa it was necessary and any 16 or older not at school did national service/call up. First 6 months training and then call up for duty. Many straight from school and made men out of them"
“While in Africa”? So every country on the continent? All 54 of them? |
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"I believe it should be.
While in Africa it was necessary and any 16 or older not at school did national service/call up. First 6 months training and then call up for duty. Many straight from school and made men out of them
What about the women?"
Made them into men too. All of them, in the well known country of Africa. |
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"I believe it should be.
While in Africa it was necessary and any 16 or older not at school did national service/call up. First 6 months training and then call up for duty. Many straight from school and made men out of them"
What country in Africa was that?
In my experience the only africans at 16 or younger/older who had to join military service where called War Childs |
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"Yes it should, for 2 years, but not the millitery version.
It should be used to supply workers for the farms, councils, NHS etc
But 18 year olds can already work in those fields if they want to
But they don't by choice, this is optional & & why wait until they are 18
What would you have chosen to do if it had been mandatory when you were 18?
I did not wait until I was 18, signed up for the millitery at 16 & fought in Dohfar, N. Ireland, Falklands war & 1st Gulf War over 30 years service."
You were attached to SF in the gulf ? |
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"Wow
Geography matters  "
Yes apparently lol
Maybe I can give them a head scratcher to work with instead. The country I was in had 2 Terrorist groups. One trained and armed by Russia and the other by China. Mugabe and Nkomo. Typical Terrorists both inflicting horrific and violent brutality on their own people. As a matter of interest, the vast majority of the Countries military were of the Local black people, all Volunteers not made to do national service, trying to do their best to eliminate the Terrs. The vast majority of people killed in that war were the civilians in the Tribal Trust lands by the Terrs in an attempt to force them to support their cause.
One of those Terrs, through support from the Western world, became the leader of that country. Went on to kill Thousands of the other Terrs tribe using AK's, Panga Knives, rounding them up in thatched huts and setting them on fire, bulldozing large pits and putting them in and then bull doze the dirt back over them alive.
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By (user no longer on site) 17 weeks ago
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"Wow
Geography matters
Yes apparently lol
Maybe I can give them a head scratcher to work with instead. The country I was in had 2 Terrorist groups. One trained and armed by Russia and the other by China. Mugabe and Nkomo. Typical Terrorists both inflicting horrific and violent brutality on their own people. As a matter of interest, the vast majority of the Countries military were of the Local black people, all Volunteers not made to do national service, trying to do their best to eliminate the Terrs. The vast majority of people killed in that war were the civilians in the Tribal Trust lands by the Terrs in an attempt to force them to support their cause.
One of those Terrs, through support from the Western world, became the leader of that country. Went on to kill Thousands of the other Terrs tribe using AK's, Panga Knives, rounding them up in thatched huts and setting them on fire, bulldozing large pits and putting them in and then bull doze the dirt back over them alive.
"
sounds like a country on the throws of a civil war. Which side was in charge of NS ? |
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By *irldnCouple 17 weeks ago
Brighton |
"Wow
Geography matters
Yes apparently lol
Maybe I can give them a head scratcher to work with instead. The country I was in had 2 Terrorist groups. One trained and armed by Russia and the other by China. Mugabe and Nkomo. Typical Terrorists both inflicting horrific and violent brutality on their own people. As a matter of interest, the vast majority of the Countries military were of the Local black people, all Volunteers not made to do national service, trying to do their best to eliminate the Terrs. The vast majority of people killed in that war were the civilians in the Tribal Trust lands by the Terrs in an attempt to force them to support their cause.
One of those Terrs, through support from the Western world, became the leader of that country. Went on to kill Thousands of the other Terrs tribe using AK's, Panga Knives, rounding them up in thatched huts and setting them on fire, bulldozing large pits and putting them in and then bull doze the dirt back over them alive.
"
Horrific and interesting in equal amounts, but in the context of this thread you could just say which country in Africa you are talking about re national service!
Unless you are going to cite signing the OSA im which case you shouldn’t be posting! |
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lol
Just saying I think it's right for all to do National Service. Give a little info as to why I thought that not wanting to explain my life history just that I support the idea.
Sorry for annoying you |
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"lol
Just saying I think it's right for all to do National Service. Give a little info as to why I thought that not wanting to explain my life history just that I support the idea.
Sorry for annoying you"
You don't need to explain your life history. Just the country you're talking about. |
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By *irldnCouple 17 weeks ago
Brighton |
"lol
Just saying I think it's right for all to do National Service. Give a little info as to why I thought that not wanting to explain my life history just that I support the idea.
Sorry for annoying you"
I get that but by giving half a specific example it left unanswered questions. That’s how conversations work . |
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"I get that but by giving half a specific example it left unanswered questions. That’s how conversations work . "
Again sorry.
Not something I like discussing to much and from past experience on here it tends to make some get nasty in their replies. Conversations are great but when you get some who only want their opinions agreed with, can get annoying.
I don't mind discussing some things in private as long as not getting into specific details. Some things best not discussed. |
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"I get that but by giving half a specific example it left unanswered questions. That’s how conversations work .
Again sorry.
Not something I like discussing to much and from past experience on here it tends to make some get nasty in their replies. Conversations are great but when you get some who only want their opinions agreed with, can get annoying.
I don't mind discussing some things in private as long as not getting into specific details. Some things best not discussed. "
I wouldn't bother, people believe what they want to believe. Just let them. |
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"I wouldn't bother, people believe what they want to believe. Just let them."
Agreed and always happy to hear others ideas. It's what makes the world go round lol. Most of us only get to hear what sort of things happen so it's a good learning method. Can get a bit annoying when confronted with some who are bent on their idea is the only correct thing lol |
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By *irldnCouple 17 weeks ago
Brighton |
"I wouldn't bother, people believe what they want to believe. Just let them.
Agreed and always happy to hear others ideas. It's what makes the world go round lol. Most of us only get to hear what sort of things happen so it's a good learning method. Can get a bit annoying when confronted with some who are bent on their idea is the only correct thing lol"
These forums can be annoying as people will hide behind their keyboard/anonymity and lose any sense of respect or politeness that would be normal in a face-to-face debate.
Exchange of ideas and discussing opposing ideologies or beliefs should be interesting and helps to avoid echo chamber and group think. Sadly we rarely get that in here as people just go on the attack and get all ad hominem very quickly as frustration increases.
On this specific point…you raised a view that in Africa (a continent) boys were subject to NS and it was the making of them. I was interested to know more and that required a specific country (there are 54 in Africa) to understand the context. Otherwise it is devoid of context and just an empty statement. I remain none the wiser so it has not been an exchange of ideas or discussion.
Now I totally respect you wanting to keep aspects (all) of your life and experiences private. But you raised the point on Africa and national service so…! All rather pointless and disappointing as it was looking interesting. |
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By *irldnCouple 17 weeks ago
Brighton |
Just a further point to illustrate my point…
I could say “Boris Johnson is a cunt” and people could rightly say “how do you know he is a cunt?” to which I could say “just trust me I know things or have been places and have experience that means I know he is a cunt!” but will anyone actually accept or believe that? |
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By *I TwoCouple 17 weeks ago
currently travelling down W France |
"Just a further point to illustrate my point…
I could say “Boris Johnson is a cunt” and people could rightly say “how do you know he is a cunt?” to which I could say “just trust me I know things or have been places and have experience that means I know he is a cunt!” but will anyone actually accept or believe that?"
To be fair, it wouldn't be hard to believe that |
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By *irldnCouple 17 weeks ago
Brighton |
"Just a further point to illustrate my point…
I could say “Boris Johnson is a cunt” and people could rightly say “how do you know he is a cunt?” to which I could say “just trust me I know things or have been places and have experience that means I know he is a cunt!” but will anyone actually accept or believe that?
To be fair, it wouldn't be hard to believe that "
 |
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"Now I totally respect you wanting to keep aspects (all) of your life and experiences private. But you raised the point on Africa and national service so…! All rather pointless and disappointing as it was looking interesting. "
Ok. Again Sorry.
I don't think the actual country where I was is relevant to the subject or my reasons for thinking it's the right way.
Pretty much every country in Africa is in some form of conflict pretty much all the time lol. For me it all ended in 1980 so many years ago and probably not even remembered by anyone anymore.
But to keep with your request the country is now called Zimbabwe. |
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By *irldnCouple 17 weeks ago
Brighton |
"Now I totally respect you wanting to keep aspects (all) of your life and experiences private. But you raised the point on Africa and national service so…! All rather pointless and disappointing as it was looking interesting.
Ok. Again Sorry.
I don't think the actual country where I was is relevant to the subject or my reasons for thinking it's the right way.
Pretty much every country in Africa is in some form of conflict pretty much all the time lol. For me it all ended in 1980 so many years ago and probably not even remembered by anyone anymore.
But to keep with your request the country is now called Zimbabwe."
Don’t apologise, I am just trying to have a conversation and to do that needed more info. So you said (I have amended Africa)…
“While [I was in] in Rhodesia/Zimbabwe it was necessary and any 16 or older not at school did national service/call up. First 6 months training and then call up for duty. Many straight from school and made men out of them”
So how did this make men out of them? Would they not have still become men doing normal jobs on leaving school? You seem to be implying that only military service makes you a man? |
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"So how did this make men out of them? Would they not have still become men doing normal jobs on leaving school? You seem to be implying that only military service makes you a man?"
I didn't mean to imply anything like that but if I did let me explain.
Like most of us, we grew up with many different people. There were some kids that you knew would turn out bad i.e. Crime, Drugs etc. What I was saying is that every kid I knew that went into the national service, good and bad, became men that you would be proud to know. Good manners, no crime, no drugs or least what is termed hard core drugs. The ones I got to know that were sure to go bad all became good hard working adults.
Not suggesting that the good kids didn't lol, just to clarify lol.
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By *irldnCouple 17 weeks ago
Brighton |
"So how did this make men out of them? Would they not have still become men doing normal jobs on leaving school? You seem to be implying that only military service makes you a man?
I didn't mean to imply anything like that but if I did let me explain.
Like most of us, we grew up with many different people. There were some kids that you knew would turn out bad i.e. Crime, Drugs etc. What I was saying is that every kid I knew that went into the national service, good and bad, became men that you would be proud to know. Good manners, no crime, no drugs or least what is termed hard core drugs. The ones I got to know that were sure to go bad all became good hard working adults.
Not suggesting that the good kids didn't lol, just to clarify lol.
"
Thanks and understood. Still struggling to see the Zimbabwe connection but let’s just forget that now.
I see a lot of the positives you talk about with people who have been through military service*. But that is through a highly professional organisation with definite career paths and people who wanted to join up. That is not the same as National Service where these 18yr olds have no choice (well they do as there is the non-military option). I can see discipline and learning skills whipping most dodgy “kids” into shape though.
*I also know people who have struggled with civilian life after leaving military. The lack of structure and chain of command is something they cannot deal with. It is one of the reasons there is a disproportionately high number of homeless people who are ex-services. |
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Yes it is great pity the Government has not looked after those ex military men and women.
I might be incorrect here but I think the issues of lack of chain of command etc. is of those who joined the military in a combat role and long term.
The subject of doing national service and doing call up duties means there is mostly time at home and work so makes it easier to fit in. Saying that though, I know of many in both full military and call up duties who have never been able to come to terms with things they saw. Many sadly take their own lives afterwards. War is a Terrible thing and would be great if we all could simply get along peacefully. Sadly that won't happen and sadly we need to make sure a country is prepared for what could happen. |
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By (user no longer on site) 17 weeks ago
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My son is in the military, he said it is criminally under funded today, how are they expected to take on millions of trainees?
A joke policy from a desperate party |
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"My son is in the military, he said it is criminally under funded today, how are they expected to take on millions of trainees?
A joke policy from a desperate party"
It'll 'only' be 30,000 I think. Every year. To be housed, fed, clothed and otherwise looked after.
From funding that is also going to be used to cover the 'plus' in the triple lock plus. |
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"My son is in the military, he said it is criminally under funded today, how are they expected to take on millions of trainees?
A joke policy from a desperate party"
It's underfunded because of contracts given by outgoing officers to the likes of sodexo and vivo, ajax, boxer for the army and others for the other 2 services |
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By *otMe66Man 17 weeks ago
Terra Firma |
"Yes, fantastic way to learn new skills and opportunities. Even given a choice on whether they volunteer once a month or go into full time service.
Not sure, why everyone is so against it.
Mrs "
They could have called it national opportunities to avoid conjuring up images of untrained privates being marched into WW2, some people seem to have. |
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"Yes, fantastic way to learn new skills and opportunities. Even given a choice on whether they volunteer once a month or go into full time service.
Not sure, why everyone is so against it.
Mrs
They could have called it national opportunities to avoid conjuring up images of untrained privates being marched into WW2, some people seem to have. "
Yup the PR is dreadful but it was suggested by Labour in the last election before the tories came to power also in 1997.
It's just tribalism. If it happens in the next government it'll be the best thing since sliced bread. |
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"it was suggested by Labour in the last election before the tories came to power also in 1997.
It's just tribalism. If it happens in the next government it'll be the best thing since sliced bread."
Did you vote for Labour when (if) they suggested it ? |
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"My son is in the military, he said it is criminally under funded today, how are they expected to take on millions of trainees?
A joke policy from a desperate party
It'll 'only' be 30,000 I think. Every year. To be housed, fed, clothed and otherwise looked after.
From funding that is also going to be used to cover the 'plus' in the triple lock plus. "
Any extra funding should be spent on the ones currently serving or have left before they introduce more into the services.
Accommodation for serving soldiers is an absolute joke, single and married quarters are in massive states of disrepair |
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"My son is in the military, he said it is criminally under funded today, how are they expected to take on millions of trainees?
A joke policy from a desperate party
It'll 'only' be 30,000 I think. Every year. To be housed, fed, clothed and otherwise looked after.
From funding that is also going to be used to cover the 'plus' in the triple lock plus.
Any extra funding should be spent on the ones currently serving or have left before they introduce more into the services.
Accommodation for serving soldiers is an absolute joke, single and married quarters are in massive states of disrepair"
Not the fault of anyone but the contractors, amey then vivo, for the SFA, happened under both parties. Also majority of the single accommodation is Z type or SLAM, akin to flats. |
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"it was suggested by Labour in the last election before the tories came to power also in 1997.
It's just tribalism. If it happens in the next government it'll be the best thing since sliced bread.
Did you vote for Labour when (if) they suggested it ?"
No, my dad did though. I was too young in 2009 to vote when Gordon brown suggested it. |
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"I was too young in 2009 to vote when Gordon brown suggested it.
He suggested 50 hours of Community Work, not Military National Service"
Only a tiny percentage will be offered to do the military aspect (30k), the rest is community work.
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"I was too young in 2009 to vote when Gordon brown suggested it.
He suggested 50 hours of Community Work, not Military National Service
Only a tiny percentage will be offered to do the military aspect (30k), the rest is community work.
"
There's already more than double that number in the Cadet Forces anyway, so it's hard to see what's being achieved - other than vote-winning. |
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"I was too young in 2009 to vote when Gordon brown suggested it.
He suggested 50 hours of Community Work, not Military National Service
Only a tiny percentage will be offered to do the military aspect (30k), the rest is community work.
There's already more than double that number in the Cadet Forces anyway, so it's hard to see what's being achieved - other than vote-winning."
Quite possibly vote winning policy. I haven't looked at what the military section will be required fully or what it will do, cadets don't get a high enough skilled training. |
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