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Today it is the victory in europe day.
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By *hagTonight OP Man 33 weeks ago
From the land of haribos. |
Today it is 8th may, it is also known as victory in europe day or v-d day.
It was churchill who addressed the nation at 3pm on ve day, he made a national radio broadcast, in it, he announced the welcome news that the war had ended in europe may 8, 1945.
There are celebrations around the world to mark the end of world war II in europe.
Lest we forget  |
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By *otMe66Man 33 weeks ago
Terra Firma |
"Today it is 8th may, it is also known as victory in europe day or v-d day.
It was churchill who addressed the nation at 3pm on ve day, he made a national radio broadcast, in it, he announced the welcome news that the war had ended in europe may 8, 1945.
There are celebrations around the world to mark the end of world war II in europe.
Lest we forget "
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"Today it is 8th may, it is also known as victory in europe day or v-d day.
It was churchill who addressed the nation at 3pm on ve day, he made a national radio broadcast, in it, he announced the welcome news that the war had ended in europe may 8, 1945.
There are celebrations around the world to mark the end of world war II in europe.
Lest we forget "
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"Today it is 8th may, it is also known as victory in europe day or v-d day.
It was churchill who addressed the nation at 3pm on ve day, he made a national radio broadcast, in it, he announced the welcome news that the war had ended in europe may 8, 1945.
There are celebrations around the world to mark the end of world war II in europe.
Lest we forget
"
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Good post. We have all lived for 79 years under the blanket of peace that our earlier generations fought so hard to acheive.
After reading in the forum what the attitude of some is to having to fight for their country's freedom, I wonder if our current generation of fighting age folk would fight as hard? |
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"It doesn't surprise me in the least how so few have posted in this thread.
Being proud of our country seems so unfashionable. "
it’s only unfashionable with the far left they have made being British toxic so sad |
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"It doesn't surprise me in the least how so few have posted in this thread.
Being proud of our country seems so unfashionable. "
Should we really politicise VE day and use it to sew division like this? |
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"It doesn't surprise me in the least how so few have posted in this thread.
Being proud of our country seems so unfashionable.
Should we really politicise VE day and use it to sew division like this?"
Hear hear! |
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By *otMe66Man 33 weeks ago
Terra Firma |
"It doesn't surprise me in the least how so few have posted in this thread.
Being proud of our country seems so unfashionable.
Should we really politicise VE day and use it to sew division like this?
Hear hear!"
The irony of calling out my comment as politicising V-E day, when I merely said it seems unfashionable to be proud of your country.
Hilarious |
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"It doesn't surprise me in the least how so few have posted in this thread.
Being proud of our country seems so unfashionable.
Should we really politicise VE day and use it to sew division like this?
Hear hear!
The irony of calling out my comment as politicising V-E day, when I merely said it seems unfashionable to be proud of your country.
Hilarious "
Just to be clear, you also said "It doesn't surprise me in the least how so few have posted in this thread."
And there's no irony. I find it disrespectful when people use things like VE day to bash their perceived political opponents. Not just you, in general. Your post was just an example. |
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By *otMe66Man 33 weeks ago
Terra Firma |
"Here I was thinking that VE Day was the end of a fight against a racist, white supremacist, and fascist regime who didn’t let people express their views without fear of dire consequences."
You and the poster above are somehow proving you are the ones you are complaining about here.
How you perceive written text is obviously influencing you both |
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"It doesn't surprise me in the least how so few have posted in this thread.
Being proud of our country seems so unfashionable. "
I know ex military colleagues who can't face remembrance day as quite literally it puts them back in a very bad place..
They simply don't feel pride in what they did and saw and to be honest that's ok..
That doesn't diminish their service nor their sacrifice..
If people don't want to contribute on a website or feel able to attend their local memorial that's absolutely fine also, it sort of comes under the banner of freedom which many paid the ultimate sacrifice for and we shouldn't use that or any day to spread division whatever our intentions.. |
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It is a sad reflection on some in society that people sacrificed their lives yet one or two posters on her are attempting to use it to score political points.
We should never forget the sacrifices that these soldiers made and should be forever greatfull to them. |
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"Here I was thinking that VE Day was the end of a fight against a racist, white supremacist, and fascist regime who didn’t let people express their views without fear of dire consequences.
You and the poster above are somehow proving you are the ones you are complaining about here.
How you perceive written text is obviously influencing you both"
You feel that somehow not being proud to be British has something to do with VE Day, it hasn’t.
In 1945 we had a lot to be proud of, we had fought against a fascist dictator who scapegoated a people of a particular religion, people with disabilities, trans people, homosexuals etc. for the problems faced by his country. We had restored freedom to the people of Europe, the Middle East and Africa. We had worked together with many other countries towards a common goal.
Today we do not have much to be proud of, the past is the past, and we need to stop looking to it for reasons to be proud. The people who fought and sacrificed in that war are largely dead, they had a Britain to be proud of, we do not have the right to steal their achievements for some fall sense of pride. |
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"It is a sad reflection on some in society that people sacrificed their lives yet one or two posters on her are attempting to use it to score political points.
"
Your doing the very thing your critical of.. |
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"Here I was thinking that VE Day was the end of a fight against a racist, white supremacist, and fascist regime who didn’t let people express their views without fear of dire consequences.
You and the poster above are somehow proving you are the ones you are complaining about here.
How you perceive written text is obviously influencing you both
You feel that somehow not being proud to be British has something to do with VE Day, it hasn’t.
In 1945 we had a lot to be proud of, we had fought against a fascist dictator who scapegoated a people of a particular religion, people with disabilities, trans people, homosexuals etc. for the problems faced by his country. We had restored freedom to the people of Europe, the Middle East and Africa. We had worked together with many other countries towards a common goal.
Today we do not have much to be proud of, the past is the past, and we need to stop looking to it for reasons to be proud. The people who fought and sacrificed in that war are largely dead, they had a Britain to be proud of, we do not have the right to steal their achievements for some fall sense of pride."
Ffs I wouldn’t invite you two to a party  |
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"Here I was thinking that VE Day was the end of a fight against a racist, white supremacist, and fascist regime who didn’t let people express their views without fear of dire consequences.
You and the poster above are somehow proving you are the ones you are complaining about here.
How you perceive written text is obviously influencing you both
You feel that somehow not being proud to be British has something to do with VE Day, it hasn’t.
In 1945 we had a lot to be proud of, we had fought against a fascist dictator who scapegoated a people of a particular religion, people with disabilities, trans people, homosexuals etc. for the problems faced by his country. We had restored freedom to the people of Europe, the Middle East and Africa. We had worked together with many other countries towards a common goal.
Today we do not have much to be proud of, the past is the past, and we need to stop looking to it for reasons to be proud. The people who fought and sacrificed in that war are largely dead, they had a Britain to be proud of, we do not have the right to steal their achievements for some fall sense of pride.
Ffs I wouldn’t invite you two to a party "
We’re distraught, truly. |
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"Love your Country. Support your Military.
"
Yes on the first point but that's not unequivocal, recognising the faults and failings of the past and present must be taken into account..
and certainly not to the extent some do which is nationalistic and xenophobic..
As ex services there's similarities,I can't support for instance those under our flag murdered innocents on a regular basis in recent conflicts and the same system covers it up..
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"Here I was thinking that VE Day was the end of a fight against a racist, white supremacist, and fascist regime who didn’t let people express their views without fear of dire consequences.
You and the poster above are somehow proving you are the ones you are complaining about here.
How you perceive written text is obviously influencing you both
You feel that somehow not being proud to be British has something to do with VE Day, it hasn’t.
In 1945 we had a lot to be proud of, we had fought against a fascist dictator who scapegoated a people of a particular religion, people with disabilities, trans people, homosexuals etc. for the problems faced by his country. We had restored freedom to the people of Europe, the Middle East and Africa. We had worked together with many other countries towards a common goal.
Today we do not have much to be proud of, the past is the past, and we need to stop looking to it for reasons to be proud. The people who fought and sacrificed in that war are largely dead, they had a Britain to be proud of, we do not have the right to steal their achievements for some fall sense of pride."
. The families of those who fought are still around and should proud of their military service and achievements.
People have no right to dismiss those who care for their families and what they forebearers achieved in the past |
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"Here I was thinking that VE Day was the end of a fight against a racist, white supremacist, and fascist regime who didn’t let people express their views without fear of dire consequences.
You and the poster above are somehow proving you are the ones you are complaining about here.
How you perceive written text is obviously influencing you both
You feel that somehow not being proud to be British has something to do with VE Day, it hasn’t.
In 1945 we had a lot to be proud of, we had fought against a fascist dictator who scapegoated a people of a particular religion, people with disabilities, trans people, homosexuals etc. for the problems faced by his country. We had restored freedom to the people of Europe, the Middle East and Africa. We had worked together with many other countries towards a common goal.
Today we do not have much to be proud of, the past is the past, and we need to stop looking to it for reasons to be proud. The people who fought and sacrificed in that war are largely dead, they had a Britain to be proud of, we do not have the right to steal their achievements for some fall sense of pride."
...but we do have the right and in my view, the obligation to commemorate the sacrifices that were made in order to pave the way for the freedoms that you and I currently enjoy. |
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By *otMe66Man 33 weeks ago
Terra Firma |
"Here I was thinking that VE Day was the end of a fight against a racist, white supremacist, and fascist regime who didn’t let people express their views without fear of dire consequences.
You and the poster above are somehow proving you are the ones you are complaining about here.
How you perceive written text is obviously influencing you both
You feel that somehow not being proud to be British has something to do with VE Day, it hasn’t.
In 1945 we had a lot to be proud of, we had fought against a fascist dictator who scapegoated a people of a particular religion, people with disabilities, trans people, homosexuals etc. for the problems faced by his country. We had restored freedom to the people of Europe, the Middle East and Africa. We had worked together with many other countries towards a common goal.
Today we do not have much to be proud of, the past is the past, and we need to stop looking to it for reasons to be proud. The people who fought and sacrificed in that war are largely dead, they had a Britain to be proud of, we do not have the right to steal their achievements for some fall sense of pride."
And again you prove that you read what you wanted to read not what was written.
To be ultra clear... I referred to being proud of our country as not being fashionable today.
You have turned that into what is now nothing more than a spurious monologue of virtue signalling.
Congrats.
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"Love your Country. Support your Military.
Interesting idea, what if your country is Germany in 1939?
And they did.
You support what they did then?"
Go on - tell me how you extrapolate that from . . . ??? |
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"Love your Country. Support your Military.
Interesting idea, what if your country is Germany in 1939?
And they did.
You support what they did then?
Go on - tell me how you extrapolate that from . . . ???"
I’m asking whether you support the German people loving their country and supporting their country in 1939, that’s all. |
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"Love your Country. Support your Military.
Yes on the first point but that's not unequivocal, recognising the faults and failings of the past and present must be taken into account..
and certainly not to the extent some do which is nationalistic and xenophobic..
As ex services there's similarities,I can't support for instance those under our flag murdered innocents on a regular basis in recent conflicts and the same system covers it up..
"
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"Love your Country. Support your Military.
Interesting idea, what if your country is Germany in 1939?
And they did.
You support what they did then?
Go on - tell me how you extrapolate that from . . . ???
I’m asking whether you support the German people loving their country and supporting their country in 1939, that’s all."
No - actually, you 'stated' that I supported that they did. 'Stated and question' are two entirely different things.
****You support what they did then?**** is a statement.
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"Love your Country. Support your Military.
Interesting idea, what if your country is Germany in 1939?
And they did.
You support what they did then?
Go on - tell me how you extrapolate that from . . . ???
I’m asking whether you support the German people loving their country and supporting their country in 1939, that’s all.
No - actually, you 'stated' that I supported that they did. 'Stated and question' are two entirely different things.
****You support what they did then?**** is a statement.
"
No, it’s a question, as indicated by the question mark. |
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"Love your Country. Support your Military.
Interesting idea, what if your country is Germany in 1939?
And they did.
You support what they did then?
Go on - tell me how you extrapolate that from . . . ???
I’m asking whether you support the German people loving their country and supporting their country in 1939, that’s all.
No - actually, you 'stated' that I supported that they did. 'Stated and question' are two entirely different things.
****You support what they did then?**** is a statement.
No, it’s a question, as indicated by the question mark."
Nope - "Do you support what they did, then?" is it's proper form.
 |
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"Love your Country. Support your Military.
Interesting idea, what if your country is Germany in 1939?
And they did.
You support what they did then?
Go on - tell me how you extrapolate that from . . . ???
I’m asking whether you support the German people loving their country and supporting their country in 1939, that’s all.
No - actually, you 'stated' that I supported that they did. 'Stated and question' are two entirely different things.
****You support what they did then?**** is a statement.
No, it’s a question, as indicated by the question mark.
Nope - "Do you support what they did, then?" is it's proper form.
"
I apologise for missing a comma.
Do you support what they did, then? |
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"You missed a bit more than that, but hey ho.
Sorry. I'm not being drawn into your . . .
But I will say this . . .
"Love your Country. Support your Military.
"
That’s ok, I mean it’s not as if love of country and veneration of the military has ever ended really badly  |
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"You missed a bit more than that, but hey ho.
Sorry. I'm not being drawn into your . . .
But I will say this . . .
"Love your Country. Support your Military.
That’s ok, I mean it’s not as if love of country and veneration of the military has ever ended really badly "
Maybe, you should start again at the title of the OP and consider the sentiment contained therein.
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Might be an unpopular view but I don't blame the average German during the war for loving their country and being proud to serve it. Obviously there are some that knew the full horrors and participated in them, these I do blame. However the average soldiers only knew what was told to them. No internet, you tube videos or anything like that for them to see. As far as many knew, they were at war and their country needed them. |
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"Might be an unpopular view but I don't blame the average German during the war for loving their country and being proud to serve it. Obviously there are some that knew the full horrors and participated in them, these I do blame. However the average soldiers only knew what was told to them. No internet, you tube videos or anything like that for them to see. As far as many knew, they were at war and their country needed them."
The issue with blaming Germans (the population is it stinks of hypocrisy when the people who do that are the same people who say things like 'it's a minority'. |
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By *otMe66Man 33 weeks ago
Terra Firma |
"Might be an unpopular view but I don't blame the average German during the war for loving their country and being proud to serve it. Obviously there are some that knew the full horrors and participated in them, these I do blame. However the average soldiers only knew what was told to them. No internet, you tube videos or anything like that for them to see. As far as many knew, they were at war and their country needed them."
OMG, this could cause the mother of all meltdowns, it's ticking  |
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"Might be an unpopular view but I don't blame the average German during the war for loving their country and being proud to serve it. Obviously there are some that knew the full horrors and participated in them, these I do blame. However the average soldiers only knew what was told to them. No internet, you tube videos or anything like that for them to see. As far as many knew, they were at war and their country needed them."
Tbf even the Allies didn't go on war because of the atrocities committed by the Nazis. If the Nazis didn't try to expand and just stayed within their countries and committed those atrocities, do you think Britain or France would have gone to war to stop them? |
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"Might be an unpopular view but I don't blame the average German during the war for loving their country and being proud to serve it. Obviously there are some that knew the full horrors and participated in them, these I do blame. However the average soldiers only knew what was told to them. No internet, you tube videos or anything like that for them to see. As far as many knew, they were at war and their country needed them.
Tbf even the Allies didn't go on war because of the atrocities committed by the Nazis. If the Nazis didn't try to expand and just stayed within their countries and committed those atrocities, do you think Britain or France would have gone to war to stop them?"
My post is not really about the reasons for war. Just saying I don't blame the average German soldier for loving and fighting for their country. To me the vast majority were just ordinary people flung into a highly dangerous situation and doing their best. |
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By *irldnCouple 33 weeks ago
Brighton |
It’s way more complicated than that but it is early and I am too tired to formulate a proper response.
While the worst atrocities undertaken by the Nazis were kept secret, enough pf the population voted for the Nazis, knowing what they stood for, to enable them to gain power.
A large proportion of the German population was complicit in what happened to the Jews. Gypsies, etc permitting their persecution, seizure of property and ghettoisation. Many/most stayed quiet when their Jewish neighbours quietly disappeared.
Of course many lived in fear as Germany was a police state and some did speak out and faced retribution.
I agree that blaming the population as a whole is wrong as it is complex with many factors at play. But…choosing to practice a form of collective ignorance does not give them a pass. |
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"It doesn't surprise me in the least how so few have posted in this thread.
Being proud of our country seems so unfashionable. it’s only unfashionable with the far left they have made being British toxic so sad "
I wouldn’t even qualify that with “far” - our national politics has shifted so far that the media and the vocal twitterati go into a frnezied meltdown accusing anyone with rational views as being “etremists” on the “far right”.
To answer a question posed above about whether this generation would volunteer to fight the way our grandparents or great-grandparents did in WW2, I doubt it, but not for reasons necessarily connected with a lack of partiotism (though that will be a factor), but largely because the first two priorities of any national government should be the protection of its borders and its self-defence. All of the shouting about raising defence spending to 2.5% of GDP is too little too late and runing down your armed forces takes very little time, re-building it into an effective fighting force takes years. If we were attacked tomorrow and had to defend ourselves we simply couldn’t, and part of the issue would be that we could not contend with accepting, kitting out and training large numbers of volunteers even if they showed up. |
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By *irldnCouple 33 weeks ago
Brighton |
"But…choosing to practice a form of collective ignorance does not give them a pass.
I like this, I can see me using it regularly "
Ha wasn’t bad for 7am!
There is quite a body of evidence that the German people knew more than is comfortable admitting or accepting. Some post war surveys have figures as high as 40% knowing about what was happening. |
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Hitler was open about what he wanted to do to the Jews. So I would be surprised if the Germans didn't know this. Sure there would have been a minority of people who didn't like it but couldn't do anything about it. But unfortunately war is unfair that way. |
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By *irldnCouple 33 weeks ago
Brighton |
"Hitler was open about what he wanted to do to the Jews. So I would be surprised if the Germans didn't know this. Sure there would have been a minority of people who didn't like it but couldn't do anything about it. But unfortunately war is unfair that way. "
Gotta say this… “unfortunately war is unfair that way” has got to be one of the most reductive posts I have seen on here! The extermination of millions of Jews, Gypsies and Slavs was not part of “the war” but being at war enabled it to take place behind the scenes. |
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"Hitler was open about what he wanted to do to the Jews. So I would be surprised if the Germans didn't know this. Sure there would have been a minority of people who didn't like it but couldn't do anything about it. But unfortunately war is unfair that way.
Gotta say this… “unfortunately war is unfair that way” has got to be one of the most reductive posts I have seen on here! The extermination of millions of Jews, Gypsies and Slavs was not part of “the war” but being at war enabled it to take place behind the scenes."
You misunderstood my post. I meant that there definitely were Germans who didn't like what the Nazis were doing and they also got hit by the war. Even though they had good conscience, they got killed. Hence war is unfortunate that way. |
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Quite amazed that anyone would want to obfuscate the significance of VE Day with endless asides of 'Ifs and Maybes'. But I suppose distance allows many to become unfamiliar or numb to its reality.
Probably better to become familiar with the full horrible history of those years.
Visit the Imperial War Museum.
Visit Potsdam.
Visit One of the forty-four thousand concentration camps and incarceration sites.
Take a tour of the National Arboretum at Birmingham or the many on the continent of Europe.
Walk through Oradour-Sur-Glane to see if you can understand it?
We all need that better sense of acknowledgment and perhaps just a little humility.
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By *irldnCouple 33 weeks ago
Brighton |
"Quite amazed that anyone would want to obfuscate the significance of VE Day with endless asides of 'Ifs and Maybes'. But I suppose distance allows many to become unfamiliar or numb to its reality.
Probably better to become familiar with the full horrible history of those years.
Visit the Imperial War Museum.
Visit Potsdam.
Visit One of the forty-four thousand concentration camps and incarceration sites.
Take a tour of the National Arboretum at Birmingham or the many on the continent of Europe.
Walk through Oradour-Sur-Glane to see if you can understand it?
We all need that better sense of acknowledgment and perhaps just a little humility.
"
I think that is a good point well made - lest we forget! |
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By *hrimper36Couple 33 weeks ago
Central France dept 36 |
Walk through Oradour-Sur-Glane to see if you can understand it?
Unbelievable horror accrued here and at a lot of other sites across Europe unfortunately but as a living museum to the horrors of mankind it serves a very strong purpose and reminder of how low we can sink at times.
Here (France) the 8th and 11th are national holidays to remember the fallen and for many years as a family we attended the ceremony and listened to the speeches from the Mayor and it always erks me that Britain moves the ceremony to the nearest Sunday.
I’m not a political person but remembering those that gave their life to allow me to live freely means a lot to me and the people where I live but like most things sadly these days it’s getting less and less important.
T |
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"
I’m not a political person but remembering those that gave their life to allow me to live freely means a lot to me and the people where I live but like most things sadly these days it’s getting less and less important.
T"
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"It’s way more complicated than that but it is early and I am too tired to formulate a proper response.
While the worst atrocities undertaken by the Nazis were kept secret, enough pf the population voted for the Nazis, knowing what they stood for, to enable them to gain power.
A large proportion of the German population was complicit in what happened to the Jews. Gypsies, etc permitting their persecution, seizure of property and ghettoisation. Many/most stayed quiet when their Jewish neighbours quietly disappeared.
Of course many lived in fear as Germany was a police state and some did speak out and faced retribution.
I agree that blaming the population as a whole is wrong as it is complex with many factors at play. But…choosing to practice a form of collective ignorance does not give them a pass."
Definitely complicated but I'm speaking of my personal opinion that I don't blame the average German soldier for fighting for their country. I said at the start it is not a popular view but it is what it is. |
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By *irldnCouple 33 weeks ago
Brighton |
"It’s way more complicated than that but it is early and I am too tired to formulate a proper response.
While the worst atrocities undertaken by the Nazis were kept secret, enough pf the population voted for the Nazis, knowing what they stood for, to enable them to gain power.
A large proportion of the German population was complicit in what happened to the Jews. Gypsies, etc permitting their persecution, seizure of property and ghettoisation. Many/most stayed quiet when their Jewish neighbours quietly disappeared.
Of course many lived in fear as Germany was a police state and some did speak out and faced retribution.
I agree that blaming the population as a whole is wrong as it is complex with many factors at play. But…choosing to practice a form of collective ignorance does not give them a pass.
Definitely complicated but I'm speaking of my personal opinion that I don't blame the average German soldier for fighting for their country. I said at the start it is not a popular view but it is what it is. "
I fully understand your point. I’m just saying far more Germans (civilians and military) knew what the Nazis were doing than is comfortable for us to accept. |
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