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collapse of confidence
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By *deepdive OP Man 33 weeks ago
France / Birmingham |
"Farmers’ confidence has hit its lowest level in at least 14 years, a long-running survey by the biggest farming union in Britain has found, with extreme weather and the post-Brexit phasing-out of EU subsidies blamed for the drop.
The National Farmers’ Union warned there had been a “collapse of confidence” and that the outlook was at its lowest since the annual poll of its members in England and Wales began in 2010.
Most farms are expecting to reduce food production next year, with arable farming particularly badly hit."
Taken from the Guardian 6/5/24
The weather has been a major factor in this with fields flooded and crops destroyed.
Brexit was a long time ago and the government promised to replace EU subsidies with a better solution - did they (I don't know).
Brexit (again) was a long time ago so why are we still seeing headlines like this?
Surely farmers and the government should have got their act together by now - it's not as though leaving the EU was a surprise!
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By *deepdive OP Man 33 weeks ago
France / Birmingham |
"It's not clear why you think that Brexit should have solved the British weather problems."
I am pretty sure that I didn't say that however; that you suggest I did, sums up your own views pretty well. |
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""Farmers’ confidence has hit its lowest level in at least 14 years, a long-running survey by the biggest farming union in Britain has found, with extreme weather and the post-Brexit phasing-out of EU subsidies blamed for the drop.
The National Farmers’ Union warned there had been a “collapse of confidence” and that the outlook was at its lowest since the annual poll of its members in England and Wales began in 2010.
Most farms are expecting to reduce food production next year, with arable farming particularly badly hit."
Taken from the Guardian 6/5/24
The weather has been a major factor in this with fields flooded and crops destroyed.
Brexit was a long time ago and the government promised to replace EU subsidies with a better solution - did they (I don't know).
Brexit (again) was a long time ago so why are we still seeing headlines like this?
Surely farmers and the government should have got their act together by now - it's not as though leaving the EU was a surprise!
"
I have seen a few articles about farmers being hit by the wet weather which has badly affected their crops. I'm not sure what you refer to when you say farmers should have got their act together by now. |
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By *otMe66Man 33 weeks ago
Terra Firma |
We experience fluctuations in weather patterns that can adversely affect farming this is not new and very hard to control. A struggle farmers face comes from the British public who want low cost foods supplied by supermarkets that dominate farming.
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By *deepdive OP Man 33 weeks ago
France / Birmingham |
""Farmers’ confidence has hit its lowest level in at least 14 years, a long-running survey by the biggest farming union in Britain has found, with extreme weather and the post-Brexit phasing-out of EU subsidies blamed for the drop.
The National Farmers’ Union warned there had been a “collapse of confidence” and that the outlook was at its lowest since the annual poll of its members in England and Wales began in 2010.
Most farms are expecting to reduce food production next year, with arable farming particularly badly hit."
Taken from the Guardian 6/5/24
The weather has been a major factor in this with fields flooded and crops destroyed.
Brexit was a long time ago and the government promised to replace EU subsidies with a better solution - did they (I don't know).
Brexit (again) was a long time ago so why are we still seeing headlines like this?
Surely farmers and the government should have got their act together by now - it's not as though leaving the EU was a surprise!
I have seen a few articles about farmers being hit by the wet weather which has badly affected their crops. I'm not sure what you refer to when you say farmers should have got their act together by now. "
What I was referring to was the fact that the article mentioned that EU subsidies, or the lack of them, were impacting farmers.
EU subsidies finished on 31st January, 2020 and both farmers and the government were well aware that this was going to happen - the majority of farmers actually voted to leave as far as I recall (but am not going to justify that statement in case anyone wants to disagree) - so surely both farmers and the government have had enough time to put other soluyions in place to ensure that farmers could continue (or were better off due to Brexit) as before.
The article would suggest otherwise.
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""Farmers’ confidence has hit its lowest level in at least 14 years, a long-running survey by the biggest farming union in Britain has found, with extreme weather and the post-Brexit phasing-out of EU subsidies blamed for the drop.
The National Farmers’ Union warned there had been a “collapse of confidence” and that the outlook was at its lowest since the annual poll of its members in England and Wales began in 2010.
Most farms are expecting to reduce food production next year, with arable farming particularly badly hit."
Taken from the Guardian 6/5/24
The weather has been a major factor in this with fields flooded and crops destroyed.
Brexit was a long time ago and the government promised to replace EU subsidies with a better solution - did they (I don't know).
Brexit (again) was a long time ago so why are we still seeing headlines like this?
Surely farmers and the government should have got their act together by now - it's not as though leaving the EU was a surprise!
I have seen a few articles about farmers being hit by the wet weather which has badly affected their crops. I'm not sure what you refer to when you say farmers should have got their act together by now.
What I was referring to was the fact that the article mentioned that EU subsidies, or the lack of them, were impacting farmers.
EU subsidies finished on 31st January, 2020 and both farmers and the government were well aware that this was going to happen - the majority of farmers actually voted to leave as far as I recall (but am not going to justify that statement in case anyone wants to disagree) - so surely both farmers and the government have had enough time to put other soluyions in place to ensure that farmers could continue (or were better off due to Brexit) as before.
The article would suggest otherwise.
"
Looking at the article it confirms that post brexit subsidies are in place and have been paid (as they quote figures and refer to figures from previous post brexit years). It mentions one particular area of the subsidies that are to do with sustainable farming which I think relates to taking care of nature on their farms instead of being paid simply to own land. It would appear that the government have changed the rules on this several times leaving farmers unsure what to do. There are other reports this year that say the allocation of Grant money was in line with what it would have been in the EU but was under spent as not all farmers applied. I have no experience of this and mainly looking at your article. I guess we all read things and take them slightly differently. To me much of the problem about subsidies is due to the government chopping and changing and yet another example of why they will loose come the GE. The remaining part of the problem is weather which is difficult to fix. As I say this is just my interpretation of what I have read and sure others are far more knowledgeable. |
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"It's not clear why you think that Brexit should have solved the British weather problems.
I am pretty sure that I didn't say that ..."
I'm pretty sure you did. First you quoted an article from the guardian, then you followed it with your own words - "The weather has been a major factor in this with fields flooded and crops destroyed. Brexit was a long time ago ...".
If you read the article that you quoted, it's mostly about wet weather. It even leads with a picture of a sodden field.
"... however; that you suggest I did, sums up your own views pretty well."
I'd be interested to hear what you think my views are. It would seem the that fact that you think you made a point about Brexit tells us rather more about you than it does about me. |
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"When Britain left the EU, the government decided to replace the Basic Payment scheme (BPs) with the three tier Environmental Land Management scheme (ELMs) in England (Note – the devolved governments in Scotland, Wales and Northern Ireland develop their own agricultural policies)."
The farmers have known since at least 2022 that the subsidy model was going to be replaced.
I think the bigger challenge to Farmers is from the retail sector Aldi. Lidl. Tesco et-al.
'Fair Price for my Products' etc.
Often, Farmers are paid below the production cost (they say, nobody has ever directly shown proof of this however)
Our climate is changing - as it is across europe - farmers are all suffering similar issues with drought or rotted wet crops.
No government can keep just giving money with no actual product/s in return. We are in a moment of transition that has to be tested with proof of concept ideas.
Just as an aside. Maybe our biggest investment should be in new reservoirs and exporting water to drought affected countries.
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"From another thread, we must import 80% of cut flowers. Why can't UK farmers grow flowers?
Infrastructure costs I would imagine, huge outlay."
Yes, I agree, and that's my point. If we had joined-up-thinking between government, producers and trade organisations there would be investment in infrastructure for long term gain. But we have government of short termism and fire-fighting. |
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"From another thread, we must import 80% of cut flowers. Why can't UK farmers grow flowers?
Infrastructure costs I would imagine, huge outlay.
Yes, I agree, and that's my point. If we had joined-up-thinking between government, producers and trade organisations there would be investment in infrastructure for long term gain. But we have government of short termism and fire-fighting."
We have a government passing legislation on gender neutral toilets but ignoring huge issue like climate change, the economy and dare I say it, illegal immigration. |
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By *deepdive OP Man 33 weeks ago
France / Birmingham |
"It's not clear why you think that Brexit should have solved the British weather problems.
I am pretty sure that I didn't say that ...
I'm pretty sure you did. First you quoted an article from the guardian, then you followed it with your own words - "The weather has been a major factor in this with fields flooded and crops destroyed. Brexit was a long time ago ...".
If you read the article that you quoted, it's mostly about wet weather. It even leads with a picture of a sodden field.
... however; that you suggest I did, sums up your own views pretty well.
I'd be interested to hear what you think my views are. It would seem the that fact that you think you made a point about Brexit tells us rather more about you than it does about me."
Perhaps it would be more honest of you to not run two paragraphs together as if they were one.
Or perhaps that was your whole purpose - to skew what I was saying to suit your own agenda.
In future, if you are going to quote what I write, try to quote correctly rather than pretend to be clever. |
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"It's not clear why you think that Brexit should have solved the British weather problems.
I am pretty sure that I didn't say that ...
I'm pretty sure you did. First you quoted an article from the guardian, then you followed it with your own words - "The weather has been a major factor in this with fields flooded and crops destroyed. Brexit was a long time ago ...".
If you read the article that you quoted, it's mostly about wet weather. It even leads with a picture of a sodden field.
... however; that you suggest I did, sums up your own views pretty well.
I'd be interested to hear what you think my views are. It would seem the that fact that you think you made a point about Brexit tells us rather more about you than it does about me.
Perhaps it would be more honest of you to not run two paragraphs together as if they were one.
Or perhaps that was your whole purpose - to skew what I was saying to suit your own agenda.
In future, if you are going to quote what I write, try to quote correctly rather than pretend to be clever."
He broke up your one sentence to address the points separately. There's absolutely nothing wrong with that, the fact it has got your back up so much definitely tells us some things about you. |
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By *deepdive OP Man 33 weeks ago
France / Birmingham |
"It's not clear why you think that Brexit should have solved the British weather problems.
I am pretty sure that I didn't say that ...
I'm pretty sure you did. First you quoted an article from the guardian, then you followed it with your own words - "The weather has been a major factor in this with fields flooded and crops destroyed. Brexit was a long time ago ...".
If you read the article that you quoted, it's mostly about wet weather. It even leads with a picture of a sodden field.
... however; that you suggest I did, sums up your own views pretty well.
I'd be interested to hear what you think my views are. It would seem the that fact that you think you made a point about Brexit tells us rather more about you than it does about me.
Perhaps it would be more honest of you to not run two paragraphs together as if they were one.
Or perhaps that was your whole purpose - to skew what I was saying to suit your own agenda.
In future, if you are going to quote what I write, try to quote correctly rather than pretend to be clever.
He broke up your one sentence to address the points separately. There's absolutely nothing wrong with that, the fact it has got your back up so much definitely tells us some things about you. "
He ran two paragraphs together rather than broke up two sentences.
Read the original post and look at how he ran all of paragraph one and the start of paragraph two together t makr a point which was based on his manipulation of my words. |
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"It's not clear why you think that Brexit should have solved the British weather problems.
I am pretty sure that I didn't say that ...
I'm pretty sure you did. First you quoted an article from the guardian, then you followed it with your own words - "The weather has been a major factor in this with fields flooded and crops destroyed. Brexit was a long time ago ...".
If you read the article that you quoted, it's mostly about wet weather. It even leads with a picture of a sodden field.
... however; that you suggest I did, sums up your own views pretty well.
I'd be interested to hear what you think my views are. It would seem the that fact that you think you made a point about Brexit tells us rather more about you than it does about me.
Perhaps it would be more honest of you to not run two paragraphs together as if they were one.
Or perhaps that was your whole purpose - to skew what I was saying to suit your own agenda.
In future, if you are going to quote what I write, try to quote correctly rather than pretend to be clever.
He broke up your one sentence to address the points separately. There's absolutely nothing wrong with that, the fact it has got your back up so much definitely tells us some things about you.
He ran two paragraphs together rather than broke up two sentences.
Read the original post and look at how he ran all of paragraph one and the start of paragraph two together t makr a point which was based on his manipulation of my words."
I was trying to be concise, but I can see why you thought it was disingenuous. So I'll do it the long way.
You quoted a Guardian article headlined "Farmer confidence at lowest in England and Wales since survey began, NFU says". Immediately after that quote, you said "The weather has been a major factor in this with fields flooded and crops destroyed". Since the Guardian article is mostly about the weather, your words read as though you believe that the weather is mostly to blame for farmers' issues.
Then you said "Brexit was a long time ago and the government promised to replace EU subsidies with a better solution - did they (I don't know)". This reads as though you think that subsidies are a minor issue, since you admit that you don't know whether they are being paid or not. Clearly you don't feel the issue important enough to read up on.
Then you said "Brexit (again) was a long time ago so why are we still seeing headlines like this?". Since the Guardian article was about farmers' difficulties with the weather, and your own words suggested that you thought the weather was the dominant problem, it looked like you were asking why Brexit hadn't solved the weather problems.
If you meant to post about how terrible Brexit is, you shouldn't have chosen an article that only mentions it in passing, you shouldn't have given the impression that weather was the biggest problem farmers have, and you should have looked into subsidies to see if they were getting paid or not.
Do you still think that you can 'sum up my own views' from this, much longer, post? |
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"It's not clear why you think that Brexit should have solved the British weather problems.
I am pretty sure that I didn't say that ...
I'm pretty sure you did. First you quoted an article from the guardian, then you followed it with your own words - "The weather has been a major factor in this with fields flooded and crops destroyed. Brexit was a long time ago ...".
If you read the article that you quoted, it's mostly about wet weather. It even leads with a picture of a sodden field.
... however; that you suggest I did, sums up your own views pretty well.
I'd be interested to hear what you think my views are. It would seem the that fact that you think you made a point about Brexit tells us rather more about you than it does about me.
Perhaps it would be more honest of you to not run two paragraphs together as if they were one.
Or perhaps that was your whole purpose - to skew what I was saying to suit your own agenda.
In future, if you are going to quote what I write, try to quote correctly rather than pretend to be clever.
He broke up your one sentence to address the points separately. There's absolutely nothing wrong with that, the fact it has got your back up so much definitely tells us some things about you.
He ran two paragraphs together rather than broke up two sentences.
Read the original post and look at how he ran all of paragraph one and the start of paragraph two together t makr a point which was based on his manipulation of my words."
I see why you're pissed. He quoted something you said. One thing directly after the other  |
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By *deepdive OP Man 33 weeks ago
France / Birmingham |
"It's not clear why you think that Brexit should have solved the British weather problems.
I am pretty sure that I didn't say that ...
I'm pretty sure you did. First you quoted an article from the guardian, then you followed it with your own words - "The weather has been a major factor in this with fields flooded and crops destroyed. Brexit was a long time ago ...".
If you read the article that you quoted, it's mostly about wet weather. It even leads with a picture of a sodden field.
... however; that you suggest I did, sums up your own views pretty well.
I'd be interested to hear what you think my views are. It would seem the that fact that you think you made a point about Brexit tells us rather more about you than it does about me.
Perhaps it would be more honest of you to not run two paragraphs together as if they were one.
Or perhaps that was your whole purpose - to skew what I was saying to suit your own agenda.
In future, if you are going to quote what I write, try to quote correctly rather than pretend to be clever.
He broke up your one sentence to address the points separately. There's absolutely nothing wrong with that, the fact it has got your back up so much definitely tells us some things about you.
He ran two paragraphs together rather than broke up two sentences.
Read the original post and look at how he ran all of paragraph one and the start of paragraph two together t makr a point which was based on his manipulation of my words.
I see why you're pissed. He quoted something you said. One thing directly after the other "
Oh how very clever
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Went to an Agrofestry seminar last month hosted by NFU and woodland trust
It was clear from the 70/80 Devon, Cornwall and Somerset farmers present and the presenters that removal of EU subsidies, govt stratergy for cheaper meat imports, the wet weather - cattle still under cover - and late arable planting, 500% increase cost in fertiliser, being the main significant reasons.
George Eustice said farmers new roles post brexit would be tending hedgerows. There are opportunities in farming through agroforestry, rewilding, woodland creation and BNG habitat creation linked to building of 300,000 new homes annually. |
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"From another thread, we must import 80% of cut flowers. Why can't UK farmers grow flowers?"
You can’t eat daffodils
Longer wetter winters, and hotter summers - cost of water to save perishing crops, unpredictability of weather conditions and fear of crop failure.
This is not good news, coupled with cheaper food imports, and higher EU tariffs on exports.
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By *otMe66Man 33 weeks ago
Terra Firma |
"From another thread, we must import 80% of cut flowers. Why can't UK farmers grow flowers?
Infrastructure costs I would imagine, huge outlay.
Weather
Weather
Weather "
The weather plays no part in industrial supplies of flowers, peppers, tomatoes etc.
All in doors, climate controlled and state of the art watering feeding and lighting.
A traditional farmer in the UK can’t compete. |
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"From another thread, we must import 80% of cut flowers. Why can't UK farmers grow flowers?
Infrastructure costs I would imagine, huge outlay.
Weather
Weather
Weather
The weather plays no part in industrial supplies of flowers, peppers, tomatoes etc.
All in doors, climate controlled and state of the art watering feeding and lighting.
A traditional farmer in the UK can’t compete. "
And can’t get planning for acres if glasshouses to grow in |
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By *otMe66Man 33 weeks ago
Terra Firma |
"From another thread, we must import 80% of cut flowers. Why can't UK farmers grow flowers?
Infrastructure costs I would imagine, huge outlay.
Weather
Weather
Weather
The weather plays no part in industrial supplies of flowers, peppers, tomatoes etc.
All in doors, climate controlled and state of the art watering feeding and lighting.
A traditional farmer in the UK can’t compete.
And can’t get planning for acres if glasshouses to grow in "
I'm not sure about the planning permissions, but to get the UK self sufficient it would cost a lot of money to setup and the British public are not necessarily a market most would invest in, when it comes to fresh food purchasing and cost expectations.
The UK supermarkets could also be a blocker in purchasing, so the why would a farmer bother at all? |
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"From another thread, we must import 80% of cut flowers. Why can't UK farmers grow flowers?
Infrastructure costs I would imagine, huge outlay.
Weather
Weather
Weather
The weather plays no part in industrial supplies of flowers, peppers, tomatoes etc.
All in doors, climate controlled and state of the art watering feeding and lighting.
A traditional farmer in the UK can’t compete.
And can’t get planning for acres if glasshouses to grow in
I'm not sure about the planning permissions, but to get the UK self sufficient it would cost a lot of money to setup and the British public are not necessarily a market most would invest in, when it comes to fresh food purchasing and cost expectations.
The UK supermarkets could also be a blocker in purchasing, so the why would a farmer bother at all?"
Interesting article in the guardian yesterday written by Guy Watson of Riverford organic growers, well known down here. Echos what you have said
Riverford HMRC returns show turnover £99.5 million on companies house, with £2.6 million pre tax / £2 million post tax profit.
2% margin, selling higher end priced organic veg
Scale that down to a smaller operation that was supported by EU subsidies and it is no longer making a profit. 7000 uk farms closed in last three years.
Add the weather, imports. invasive ploughing of land, little adoption of no till / hydroponic/ permaculture techniques etc
There are some interesting videos on you tube of Israeli agriculture techniques and a lot to be learned |
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By *otMe66Man 33 weeks ago
Terra Firma |
"From another thread, we must import 80% of cut flowers. Why can't UK farmers grow flowers?
Infrastructure costs I would imagine, huge outlay.
Weather
Weather
Weather
The weather plays no part in industrial supplies of flowers, peppers, tomatoes etc.
All in doors, climate controlled and state of the art watering feeding and lighting.
A traditional farmer in the UK can’t compete.
And can’t get planning for acres if glasshouses to grow in
I'm not sure about the planning permissions, but to get the UK self sufficient it would cost a lot of money to setup and the British public are not necessarily a market most would invest in, when it comes to fresh food purchasing and cost expectations.
The UK supermarkets could also be a blocker in purchasing, so the why would a farmer bother at all?
Interesting article in the guardian yesterday written by Guy Watson of Riverford organic growers, well known down here. Echos what you have said
Riverford HMRC returns show turnover £99.5 million on companies house, with £2.6 million pre tax / £2 million post tax profit.
2% margin, selling higher end priced organic veg
Scale that down to a smaller operation that was supported by EU subsidies and it is no longer making a profit. 7000 uk farms closed in last three years.
Add the weather, imports. invasive ploughing of land, little adoption of no till / hydroponic/ permaculture techniques etc
There are some interesting videos on you tube of Israeli agriculture techniques and a lot to be learned "
It is unfortunately the nature of our demand in the UK and elsewhere for that matter.
Public demand for low cost food items, fresh or mass produced has produced some unique farming outputs as you mention. The UK seems a long way behind the curve. However, with the ever increasing uncertainty on crop production, city investment could pay off if they could take some control of supermarket demands. |
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