FabSwingers.com > Forums > Politics > Ireland and asylum seekers
Ireland and asylum seekers
Jump to: Newest in thread
| |||
| |||
"The BBC is reporting that Ireland is looking to bring legislation to enable the return of asylum seekers to the UK. I'm not seeing any reason to justify why this would be permissable especially considering the situation in the channel. Thoughts?" Who'd have thought an EU country can take their own decisions. If only ... | |||
"The BBC is reporting that Ireland is looking to bring legislation to enable the return of asylum seekers to the UK. I'm not seeing any reason to justify why this would be permissable especially considering the situation in the channel. Thoughts?" Sounds like the same rhetoric as the Daily Mail types use 'send them back to France'. | |||
"The BBC is reporting that Ireland is looking to bring legislation to enable the return of asylum seekers to the UK. I'm not seeing any reason to justify why this would be permissable especially considering the situation in the channel. Thoughts?" Reading the BBC article it seems the Irish are blaming the Rwanda policy and say that it is already having an effect even though it's not actually started yet. They say the migrants already in the UK are concerned about being sent to Rwanda so have decided to move onto ROI. Maybe the ROI will get accused of using migrants as a diversion tactic now | |||
| |||
"Who knew the uk was war torn. " Well the UK is falling to bits due to a shit government | |||
| |||
| |||
| |||
| |||
"I was told that the Rwanda policy won't be effective. But anyway, if Ireland can't handle them, they can take it to the French and ask them to stop the asylum seekers in the first place. The French already receive a lot of money from UK." Sunak said that Britain will give France £480 million pounds over three years to invest in police, technology and intelligence to help reduce the number of asylum seekers arriving on uk shores in small boats Add £400 million odd to Rwanda, cost here of processing applications, legal, courts, barristers, and £8m a day in the interim housing costs, welfare, heath, for asylum seekers Cost is ever increasing, is there an honest verified total of what this is costing. | |||
"I was told that the Rwanda policy won't be effective. But anyway, if Ireland can't handle them, they can take it to the French and ask them to stop the asylum seekers in the first place. The French already receive a lot of money from UK. Sunak said that Britain will give France £480 million pounds over three years to invest in police, technology and intelligence to help reduce the number of asylum seekers arriving on uk shores in small boats Add £400 million odd to Rwanda, cost here of processing applications, legal, courts, barristers, and £8m a day in the interim housing costs, welfare, heath, for asylum seekers Cost is ever increasing, is there an honest verified total of what this is costing. " Ideally, if Rwanda plan works out, we shouldn't be giving the French anymore. If it doesn't, we need to shut down the Rwanda plan(which labour says they will do). But political bureaucracy being what it is, I hardly believe it will happen. | |||
"I was told that the Rwanda policy won't be effective. But anyway, if Ireland can't handle them, they can take it to the French and ask them to stop the asylum seekers in the first place. The French already receive a lot of money from UK. Sunak said that Britain will give France £480 million pounds over three years to invest in police, technology and intelligence to help reduce the number of asylum seekers arriving on uk shores in small boats Add £400 million odd to Rwanda, cost here of processing applications, legal, courts, barristers, and £8m a day in the interim housing costs, welfare, heath, for asylum seekers Cost is ever increasing, is there an honest verified total of what this is costing. Ideally, if Rwanda plan works out, we shouldn't be giving the French anymore. If it doesn't, we need to shut down the Rwanda plan(which labour says they will do). But political bureaucracy being what it is, I hardly believe it will happen." If the Rwanda plan works out, on numbers given at 200/300 a year capacity, at £1.8M a head on initial phase, add the 215,500 on current home office asylum application list including 67,337 asylum applications (relating to 84,425 people) in the UK in the year ending December 2023 And add the cost of 200 extra case workers, extra judges, interpreters, etc being boasted by Sunak Add the 5k arrivals this year, 830 week before last, 359 this week gone. The UN claim there will be 1.2BN migrants from climate change, war etc How is it ever going to work whoever is in government. | |||
"I was told that the Rwanda policy won't be effective. But anyway, if Ireland can't handle them, they can take it to the French and ask them to stop the asylum seekers in the first place. The French already receive a lot of money from UK. Sunak said that Britain will give France £480 million pounds over three years to invest in police, technology and intelligence to help reduce the number of asylum seekers arriving on uk shores in small boats Add £400 million odd to Rwanda, cost here of processing applications, legal, courts, barristers, and £8m a day in the interim housing costs, welfare, heath, for asylum seekers Cost is ever increasing, is there an honest verified total of what this is costing. Ideally, if Rwanda plan works out, we shouldn't be giving the French anymore. If it doesn't, we need to shut down the Rwanda plan(which labour says they will do). But political bureaucracy being what it is, I hardly believe it will happen. If the Rwanda plan works out, on numbers given at 200/300 a year capacity, at £1.8M a head on initial phase, add the 215,500 on current home office asylum application list including 67,337 asylum applications (relating to 84,425 people) in the UK in the year ending December 2023 And add the cost of 200 extra case workers, extra judges, interpreters, etc being boasted by Sunak Add the 5k arrivals this year, 830 week before last, 359 this week gone. The UN claim there will be 1.2BN migrants from climate change, war etc How is it ever going to work whoever is in government. " The 200/300 capacity per year is a fake news which someone cooked up and is doing the rounds on the internet. The initial capacity for taking asylum seekers in Rwanda was 200. They planned to start building more capacity once the plan really kicks off and asylum seekers are sent there after all the legal battles. They were obviously not going to build capacity for thousands even before we start sending people there. Once we start sending, they will build more capacity. The Tories plan to send lot more than that. So your basic assumption behind all these calculations is wrong. And the 1.8M per head is also fake news spread by left wing media. You open the guardian article to find how they arrived at this number and you can see how ridiculous it is. | |||
| |||
| |||
| |||
"I was told that the Rwanda policy won't be effective. But anyway, if Ireland can't handle them, they can take it to the French and ask them to stop the asylum seekers in the first place. The French already receive a lot of money from UK." Surely the Irish could simply give the British Government some money to stop the migrants leaving the UK 
in a similar fashion to the British Government giving the French money to stop them leaving France.
..or is that too simplistic  | |||
" Surely the Irish could simply give the British Government some money to stop the migrants leaving the UK
in a similar fashion to the British Government giving the French money to stop them leaving France.
..or is that too simplistic "Fighting over who owns the migrants. We have been doing that with France forever. Now the eu block is trying to set a model that controls all the borders to only have legal migrants. Suddenly, the eu are playing catch-up.  | |||
| |||
| |||
"And round-and-around-and-around it will go. But it will be interesting to see what they do, their reasoning, their interpretation of immigration law, and the UK answer to it. " Very well said bearing in mind the Common Travel Area between Ireland and the UK, and no physical border control between the EU and the UK on the island of Ireland, nor between NI and the rest of the UK. Will also be interesting to see how long it takes Ireland to legislate. They are talking weeks. How long has the Rwandan legislation taken? Two years? | |||
| |||
"It seems there is a meeting today about this subject. ROI say they will not be a loophole in the system. Not sure what they are referring to. If a migrant has travelled across Europe, why can't they travel across the UK to get to ROI if they want too. UK position seems to be they won't accept returns of migrants from ROI until France also accepts returns of migrants. " Yup, we can't have on set of EU rules to the East and another to the West just because it suits them. | |||
"It seems there is a meeting today about this subject. ROI say they will not be a loophole in the system. Not sure what they are referring to. If a migrant has travelled across Europe, why can't they travel across the UK to get to ROI if they want too. UK position seems to be they won't accept returns of migrants from ROI until France also accepts returns of migrants. " Well put Leroy. I agree. The EU cannot have it both ways. | |||
| |||
"It seems there is a meeting today about this subject. ROI say they will not be a loophole in the system. Not sure what they are referring to. If a migrant has travelled across Europe, why can't they travel across the UK to get to ROI if they want too. UK position seems to be they won't accept returns of migrants from ROI until France also accepts returns of migrants. Well put Leroy. I agree. The EU cannot have it both ways." That works two ways too Why should the UK expect the EU to stop people crossing into the UK if the UK is quite happy to let migrants cross into the ROI? | |||
"It seems there is a meeting today about this subject. ROI say they will not be a loophole in the system. Not sure what they are referring to. If a migrant has travelled across Europe, why can't they travel across the UK to get to ROI if they want too. UK position seems to be they won't accept returns of migrants from ROI until France also accepts returns of migrants. Well put Leroy. I agree. The EU cannot have it both ways. That works two ways too Why should the UK expect the EU to stop people crossing into the UK if the UK is quite happy to let migrants cross into the ROI?" That's true, which brings it back to the original point I have been making for long. None of the countries want many refugees. Yet they all want to act like they are following the refugee convention. Hence they are all performing these wild gymnastics to get around it. How long is it going to take for these politicians to realise that these conventions were emotional responses after the holocaust with little thought about their practicality and it doesn't make sense to hold themselves ransom to these? | |||
"It seems there is a meeting today about this subject. ROI say they will not be a loophole in the system. Not sure what they are referring to. If a migrant has travelled across Europe, why can't they travel across the UK to get to ROI if they want too. UK position seems to be they won't accept returns of migrants from ROI until France also accepts returns of migrants. Well put Leroy. I agree. The EU cannot have it both ways. That works two ways too Why should the UK expect the EU to stop people crossing into the UK if the UK is quite happy to let migrants cross into the ROI?" Would it have anything to do with the fact that almost all countries have _immigration_ policies to restrict inbound movement and very few have _emmigration_ policies to deal with those leaving? | |||
"It seems there is a meeting today about this subject. ROI say they will not be a loophole in the system. Not sure what they are referring to. If a migrant has travelled across Europe, why can't they travel across the UK to get to ROI if they want too. UK position seems to be they won't accept returns of migrants from ROI until France also accepts returns of migrants. Well put Leroy. I agree. The EU cannot have it both ways. That works two ways too Why should the UK expect the EU to stop people crossing into the UK if the UK is quite happy to let migrants cross into the ROI?" Indeed so it becomes a circular chicken and egg discussion! Although is there not a subtle difference? To get to the UK from France these people are using small boats operated by criminal gangs. To go from UK to Northern Ireland I assume they board a ferry (all within UK so no passport needed). They then simply walk into the Rep of Ireland as there is no border. | |||
| |||
"It seems there is a meeting today about this subject. ROI say they will not be a loophole in the system. Not sure what they are referring to. If a migrant has travelled across Europe, why can't they travel across the UK to get to ROI if they want too. UK position seems to be they won't accept returns of migrants from ROI until France also accepts returns of migrants. Well put Leroy. I agree. The EU cannot have it both ways. That works two ways too Why should the UK expect the EU to stop people crossing into the UK if the UK is quite happy to let migrants cross into the ROI? Indeed so it becomes a circular chicken and egg discussion! Although is there not a subtle difference? To get to the UK from France these people are using small boats operated by criminal gangs. To go from UK to Northern Ireland I assume they board a ferry (all within UK so no passport needed). They then simply walk into the Rep of Ireland as there is no border." Am I right in thinking that there is no border on the insistence of the EU and Ireland? | |||
"It seems there is a meeting today about this subject. ROI say they will not be a loophole in the system. Not sure what they are referring to. If a migrant has travelled across Europe, why can't they travel across the UK to get to ROI if they want too. UK position seems to be they won't accept returns of migrants from ROI until France also accepts returns of migrants. Well put Leroy. I agree. The EU cannot have it both ways. That works two ways too Why should the UK expect the EU to stop people crossing into the UK if the UK is quite happy to let migrants cross into the ROI? Indeed so it becomes a circular chicken and egg discussion! Although is there not a subtle difference? To get to the UK from France these people are using small boats operated by criminal gangs. To go from UK to Northern Ireland I assume they board a ferry (all within UK so no passport needed). They then simply walk into the Rep of Ireland as there is no border. Am I right in thinking that there is no border on the insistence of the EU and Ireland?" There is no physical border | |||
| |||
"According to the times "A post-Brexit provision was, however, made in the case of the UK and Ireland, which meant Ireland could return asylum seekers to Britain. No asylum seeker has been successfully returned to Ireland, or vice-versa, under this post-Brexit arrangement since it was struck." So it appears it may be different to France. We've agreed it's okay already. The Ireland legislation is around how they define a safe country. Currently it's not up to EU scratch. So it's EU that are getting in the way, not the UK! " So let's get this right, the UK has agreed in principle to accept retuned asylum seekers from Ireland, whilst accepting we can't return the same to France? Unbelievable!! | |||
"According to the times "A post-Brexit provision was, however, made in the case of the UK and Ireland, which meant Ireland could return asylum seekers to Britain. No asylum seeker has been successfully returned to Ireland, or vice-versa, under this post-Brexit arrangement since it was struck." So it appears it may be different to France. We've agreed it's okay already. The Ireland legislation is around how they define a safe country. Currently it's not up to EU scratch. So it's EU that are getting in the way, not the UK! So let's get this right, the UK has agreed in principle to accept retuned asylum seekers from Ireland, whilst accepting we can't return the same to France? Unbelievable!!" if I've read the article right yh. | |||
| |||
"According to the times "A post-Brexit provision was, however, made in the case of the UK and Ireland, which meant Ireland could return asylum seekers to Britain. No asylum seeker has been successfully returned to Ireland, or vice-versa, under this post-Brexit arrangement since it was struck." So it appears it may be different to France. We've agreed it's okay already. The Ireland legislation is around how they define a safe country. Currently it's not up to EU scratch. So it's EU that are getting in the way, not the UK! So let's get this right, the UK has agreed in principle to accept retuned asylum seekers from Ireland, whilst accepting we can't return the same to France? Unbelievable!!if I've read the article right yh. " I'm not seeing that being reported anywhere | |||
"Im sure the ones who have fled to ireland will say its not safe for them to return to the uk because they could be sent to africa" That is roughly what I understand though not sure if it was the asylum seekers that requested not to be sent back or the Irish government seeing where they stand. Apparently one way or another the Irish courts have declared the UK not safe for these people due to the risk of being sent to Rwanda. Maybe Ireland will simply make a law declaring the UK safe regardless of what the court says. | |||
"Im sure the ones who have fled to ireland will say its not safe for them to return to the uk because they could be sent to africa That is roughly what I understand though not sure if it was the asylum seekers that requested not to be sent back or the Irish government seeing where they stand. Apparently one way or another the Irish courts have declared the UK not safe for these people due to the risk of being sent to Rwanda. Maybe Ireland will simply make a law declaring the UK safe regardless of what the court says. " But France is safe yet the UK can't send asylum seekers back to them. The EU is going to struggle with this as individual member states act in their own interests ahead of the EU | |||
"It seems there is a meeting today about this subject. ROI say they will not be a loophole in the system. Not sure what they are referring to. If a migrant has travelled across Europe, why can't they travel across the UK to get to ROI if they want too. UK position seems to be they won't accept returns of migrants from ROI until France also accepts returns of migrants. Well put Leroy. I agree. The EU cannot have it both ways. That works two ways too Why should the UK expect the EU to stop people crossing into the UK if the UK is quite happy to let migrants cross into the ROI?" They don't stop people crossing which has in turn led to them getting to the UK. But instead of that being the end of their journey they carry onto ROI who now complain | |||
"Im sure the ones who have fled to ireland will say its not safe for them to return to the uk because they could be sent to africa That is roughly what I understand though not sure if it was the asylum seekers that requested not to be sent back or the Irish government seeing where they stand. Apparently one way or another the Irish courts have declared the UK not safe for these people due to the risk of being sent to Rwanda. Maybe Ireland will simply make a law declaring the UK safe regardless of what the court says. But France is safe yet the UK can't send asylum seekers back to them. The EU is going to struggle with this as individual member states act in their own interests ahead of the EU " I agree it's a crazy situation though last I heard the UK is refusing to have back the ones that went to Ireland. I wonder if the human rights lawyers will get involved if the Irish try to force them back | |||
"Im sure the ones who have fled to ireland will say its not safe for them to return to the uk because they could be sent to africa That is roughly what I understand though not sure if it was the asylum seekers that requested not to be sent back or the Irish government seeing where they stand. Apparently one way or another the Irish courts have declared the UK not safe for these people due to the risk of being sent to Rwanda. Maybe Ireland will simply make a law declaring the UK safe regardless of what the court says. But France is safe yet the UK can't send asylum seekers back to them. The EU is going to struggle with this as individual member states act in their own interests ahead of the EU I agree it's a crazy situation though last I heard the UK is refusing to have back the ones that went to Ireland. I wonder if the human rights lawyers will get involved if the Irish try to force them back" Yes - quite a can of worms! Essentially, the EU could always ship migrants to Ireland and they could come to the UK via Northern Ireland and cross by ferry (no passports required as ferries go both ways)! Not that that will happen but this whole thing could easily spiral and cause another set of renegotiations regarding both the Windsor Agreement and any future agreements between the UK and the EU. Going to be an interesting and controversial few days or weeks ... | |||
"Im sure the ones who have fled to ireland will say its not safe for them to return to the uk because they could be sent to africa That is roughly what I understand though not sure if it was the asylum seekers that requested not to be sent back or the Irish government seeing where they stand. Apparently one way or another the Irish courts have declared the UK not safe for these people due to the risk of being sent to Rwanda. Maybe Ireland will simply make a law declaring the UK safe regardless of what the court says. But France is safe yet the UK can't send asylum seekers back to them. The EU is going to struggle with this as individual member states act in their own interests ahead of the EU I agree it's a crazy situation though last I heard the UK is refusing to have back the ones that went to Ireland. I wonder if the human rights lawyers will get involved if the Irish try to force them back" You only wonder? I am absolutely sure as I can be that they will relish getting involved! For a fee of course! | |||
| |||
"Asylum applications in the EU hit seven-year high last year. More than 1.1 million people applied for asylum in the EU bloc in 2023, just under the levels of the 2015 refugee crisis 5.1 million immigrants entered the EU from non-EU countries in 2022, an increase of around 117% (2.7 million) compared with 2021 9 million+ in 3 years. Add the unrecorded numbers. This is not going away anytime soon. Uk lucky we’ve only had 50,000 arrivals, so far. " Costing £4 bn a year. But then we are an enlightened fair nation and it must be done. Never mind nobody can get to see a doctor, pensioners can't turn the heating on and we have the most potholed roads outside Africa  | |||
"Asylum applications in the EU hit seven-year high last year. More than 1.1 million people applied for asylum in the EU bloc in 2023, just under the levels of the 2015 refugee crisis 5.1 million immigrants entered the EU from non-EU countries in 2022, an increase of around 117% (2.7 million) compared with 2021 9 million+ in 3 years. Add the unrecorded numbers. This is not going away anytime soon. Uk lucky we’ve only had 50,000 arrivals, so far. " I think the 5.1M in 2022 and 9M in 3 years are numbers including skilled immigrants too. Can't compare that with UK's 50K which is only the asylum seekers count | |||
"Im sure the ones who have fled to ireland will say its not safe for them to return to the uk because they could be sent to africa That is roughly what I understand though not sure if it was the asylum seekers that requested not to be sent back or the Irish government seeing where they stand. Apparently one way or another the Irish courts have declared the UK not safe for these people due to the risk of being sent to Rwanda. Maybe Ireland will simply make a law declaring the UK safe regardless of what the court says. But France is safe yet the UK can't send asylum seekers back to them. The EU is going to struggle with this as individual member states act in their own interests ahead of the EU I agree it's a crazy situation though last I heard the UK is refusing to have back the ones that went to Ireland. I wonder if the human rights lawyers will get involved if the Irish try to force them back Yes - quite a can of worms! Essentially, the EU could always ship migrants to Ireland and they could come to the UK via Northern Ireland and cross by ferry (no passports required as ferries go both ways)! Not that that will happen but this whole thing could easily spiral and cause another set of renegotiations regarding both the Windsor Agreement and any future agreements between the UK and the EU. Going to be an interesting and controversial few days or weeks ..." Interesting indeed though may end being a back room deal. Just watched some interviews where a few things were mentioned. One was that apparently not long ago the Irish said they did not have figures on how many cross the land border to claim asylum. Soon as the Rwanda bill was passed the figures magically appeared. One person mentioned similar to what you mention but the other way. Those that are to be detained soon for deportation should be held at a holding center in NI very near the border and with with very lax security. It was tongue in cheek though some may take up the idea. | |||
"Asylum applications in the EU hit seven-year high last year. More than 1.1 million people applied for asylum in the EU bloc in 2023, just under the levels of the 2015 refugee crisis 5.1 million immigrants entered the EU from non-EU countries in 2022, an increase of around 117% (2.7 million) compared with 2021 9 million+ in 3 years. Add the unrecorded numbers. This is not going away anytime soon. Uk lucky we’ve only had 50,000 arrivals, so far. " Not sure what your 50k is here. The UK has experienced unprecedented levels of legal immigration since the pandemic. The latest official estimates show that net legal migration in the year to June 2023 was 672,000 - up significantly on pre-pandemic volumes but lower than the 745,000 figure for net legal migration the year to December 2022.?Home Office figures. The number of people who crossed the English Channel illegally in 2023 (29,437)is just over a third less than in 2022 when 45,774 made the crossing. Is that your 50k? | |||
"Asylum applications in the EU hit seven-year high last year. More than 1.1 million people applied for asylum in the EU bloc in 2023, just under the levels of the 2015 refugee crisis 5.1 million immigrants entered the EU from non-EU countries in 2022, an increase of around 117% (2.7 million) compared with 2021 9 million+ in 3 years. Add the unrecorded numbers. This is not going away anytime soon. Uk lucky we’ve only had 50,000 arrivals, so far. Not sure what your 50k is here. The UK has experienced unprecedented levels of legal immigration since the pandemic. The latest official estimates show that net legal migration in the year to June 2023 was 672,000 - up significantly on pre-pandemic volumes but lower than the 745,000 figure for net legal migration the year to December 2022.?Home Office figures. The number of people who crossed the English Channel illegally in 2023 (29,437)is just over a third less than in 2022 when 45,774 made the crossing. Is that your 50k? " Yeah he compared UK's illegal immigration with Europe's total immigration including legal and illegal | |||
"Asylum applications in the EU hit seven-year high last year. More than 1.1 million people applied for asylum in the EU bloc in 2023, just under the levels of the 2015 refugee crisis 5.1 million immigrants entered the EU from non-EU countries in 2022, an increase of around 117% (2.7 million) compared with 2021 9 million+ in 3 years. Add the unrecorded numbers. This is not going away anytime soon. Uk lucky we’ve only had 50,000 arrivals, so far. Not sure what your 50k is here. The UK has experienced unprecedented levels of legal immigration since the pandemic. The latest official estimates show that net legal migration in the year to June 2023 was 672,000 - up significantly on pre-pandemic volumes but lower than the 745,000 figure for net legal migration the year to December 2022.?Home Office figures. The number of people who crossed the English Channel illegally in 2023 (29,437)is just over a third less than in 2022 when 45,774 made the crossing. Is that your 50k? " The point I was making was total numbers to EU and the UN predicts 1.2bn more by 2050 Legals, illegals, cost of Rwanda/ hotels/ welfare/legal /courts/home office processing staff/judges etc is costing billions and whatever the government and future government do I don’t see much changing given the huge volumes of migrants into the EU and beyond. | |||
| |||
