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Hate Crime and Public Order (Scotland) Act 2021
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Whilst the objectives are laudable, the legislation will be another drain on policing and cost to the public of prosecution and court proceedings. So faced with a choice between investigating your burgled house (1 disgruntled houseowner) or an online 'hate' incident (10,000s offended), the police will prioritise the latter. |
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It seems that a lot of countries want to control how people demonstrate and what they demonstrate for.
Is there something down the road a decision that will infuriate people in numbers so they take to the streets in protest?
So they have put legislation in place now to be able to combat it.
I will have to wait and see. |
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Just another step towards end of free speech. Politicians love taking away your right to speak. European politicians have figured out the formula to do that in a way that people don't realise what they are losing. Left wing parties using "for the sake of equality and social justice" excuse and right wing parties using "for the sake of safety and security" excuse.
Have you ever noticed? When such laws are passed, the opposition parties always condemn them. Yet when these opposition parties come to power, they won't get rid of these laws. Just shows that politicians both left and right are wannabe authoritarians.
People in Europe criticise CCP's authoritarianism in China. I wouldn't be surprised if Europe reaches the exact same point only using different excuses. |
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If I remember correctly, the original bill that Humza Yousaf proposed had a clause that could get you arrested for telling something in the privacy of your own home. That's literally the plot of 1984.
Also, would Humza's speech complaining about white people being in top positions count as stirring up hatred? |
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"If I remember correctly, the original bill that Humza Yousaf proposed had a clause that could get you arrested for telling something in the privacy of your own home. That's literally the plot of 1984.
Also, would Humza's speech complaining about white people being in top positions count as stirring up hatred?"
I'm waiting with baited breath for a flurry of hate crime reports about him on the 1st following that speech. Guy is a fucking clown. |
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"Thank goodness the Scots have finally abolished blasphemy.
The SNP have finally done something that we can all agree is a good thing."
"Only to replace it with something as bad or even worse"
Well, it's nice to see that they have made it a criminal offence for their countrymen to express hatred for the English. I'm sure we'll see a much more civil tone from the SNP in parliament from now on. |
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"Thank goodness the Scots have finally abolished blasphemy.
The SNP have finally done something that we can all agree is a good thing.
Only to replace it with something as bad or even worse
Well, it's nice to see that they have made it a criminal offence for their countrymen to express hatred for the English. I'm sure we'll see a much more civil tone from the SNP in parliament from now on."
These "" laws, are for the governed, that is what they are 'rules of the governed voters'.
The clue is in the words. |
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By *aygee246Man 38 weeks ago
South Lanarkshire |
Totally unnecessary piece of legislation which will be used by campaigners and activists to silence people who disagree with them. I think it will have a detrimental affect on free speech in Scotland which is already under attack. |
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"Totally unnecessary piece of legislation which will be used by campaigners and activists to silence people who disagree with them. I think it will have a detrimental affect on free speech in Scotland which is already under attack."
Would a scotish person calling an english person a brit be insighting hate and harm when they are in fact english.  |
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"Totally unnecessary piece of legislation which will be used by campaigners and activists to silence people who disagree with them. I think it will have a detrimental affect on free speech in Scotland which is already under attack."
Agree with everything you said.
Wonder how many folk realise that cross dressers are protected under this legislation but women are no |
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By *otMe66Man 38 weeks ago
Terra Firma |
Long post, but I find this new law very confusing, I'm guessing the definition of malice and criticism will be thrown around the courts for years to come...
on the left hand:
Protection of freedom of expression
For the purposes of section 4(2), behaviour or material is not to be taken to be threatening or abusive solely on the basis that it involves or includes—
(a)discussion or criticism of matters relating to—
(i)age,
(ii)disability,
(iii)sexual orientation,
(iv)transgender identity,
(v)variations in sex characteristics
On the right hand:
Aggravation of offences by prejudice
(1)An offence is aggravated by prejudice if—
(a)where there is a specific victim of the offence—
(i)at the time of committing the offence, or immediately before or after doing so, the offender demonstrates malice and ill-will towards the victim, and
(ii)the malice and ill-will is based on the victim's membership or presumed membership of a group defined by reference to a characteristic mentioned in subsection (2), or
(b)whether or not there is a specific victim of the offence, the offence is motivated (wholly or partly) by malice and ill-will towards a group of persons based on the group being defined by reference to a characteristic mentioned in subsection (2).
(2)The characteristics are—
(a)age,
(b)disability,
(c)race, colour, nationality (including citizenship), or ethnic or national origins,
(d)religion or, in the case of a social or cultural group, perceived religious affiliation,
(e)sexual orientation |
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"Long post, but I find this new law very confusing, I'm guessing the definition of malice and criticism will be thrown around the courts for years to come...
on the left hand:
Protection of freedom of expression
For the purposes of section 4(2), behaviour or material is not to be taken to be threatening or abusive solely on the basis that it involves or includes—
(a)discussion or criticism of matters relating to—
(i)age,
(ii)disability,
(iii)sexual orientation,
(iv)transgender identity,
(v)variations in sex characteristics
On the right hand:
Aggravation of offences by prejudice
(1)An offence is aggravated by prejudice if—
(a)where there is a specific victim of the offence—
(i)at the time of committing the offence, or immediately before or after doing so, the offender demonstrates malice and ill-will towards the victim, and
(ii)the malice and ill-will is based on the victim's membership or presumed membership of a group defined by reference to a characteristic mentioned in subsection (2), or
(b)whether or not there is a specific victim of the offence, the offence is motivated (wholly or partly) by malice and ill-will towards a group of persons based on the group being defined by reference to a characteristic mentioned in subsection (2).
(2)The characteristics are—
(a)age,
(b)disability,
(c)race, colour, nationality (including citizenship), or ethnic or national origins,
(d)religion or, in the case of a social or cultural group, perceived religious affiliation,
(e)sexual orientation"
Many laws around hate speech in UK or other European countries are confusing. It's not a bug, it's a feature to curtail free speech. A confusing law that's up for interpretation can be easily misused as much as they want.
The communications act 2003 says that it's illegal to post anything that's "grossly offensive" on the internet. Now who decides what's grossly offensive? No one knows. With the Tories governing the country and complaining a lot about woke policing, one would have expected them to get rid of the act. But apparently not. Tells you all you need to know about politicians in general. |
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By *uietbloke67Man 38 weeks ago
outside your bedroom window ;-) |
It might not be the answer, however at least trying something to limit the disgustingly keyboard warriors with their bigoted, racists, misogynist terms or certain sections bigoted songs you hear in Scotland is worth a try.
|
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"Thoughts on this?
The end of free speech or a welcome piece of legislation?"
At what point does free speech become hate speech?
“If freedom of speech is taken away, then dumb and silent we may be led, like sheep to the slaughter.”
George Washington |
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"Totally unnecessary piece of legislation which will be used by campaigners and activists to silence people who disagree with them. I think it will have a detrimental affect on free speech in Scotland which is already under attack."
 |
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"It might not be the answer, however at least trying something to limit the disgustingly keyboard warriors with their bigoted, racists, misogynist terms or certain sections bigoted songs you hear in Scotland is worth a try.
"
All of these would/could be covered already by existing legislation. Breach of the peace for example.
With regards to the Scottish football songs & comments remember that it's not just the people in the exchange who are involved here. It's onlookers too. So you could have a situation where a Celtic & Rangers fan who are friends have some colourful "banter" but a third party may take offence and report one of them. It's a clipe's charter. |
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"Does england,wales have a hate crime bill ?"
I assume you meant hate speech and not hate crime?
Blair passed the racial and religious hatred bill in 2006. From what I know, it doesn't include gender critical speech
https://www.legislation.gov.uk/ukpga/2006/1/schedule
But the 2003 communications act casts a wide enough net to arrest people on multiple grounds. |
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By *uietbloke67Man 38 weeks ago
outside your bedroom window ;-) |
"It might not be the answer, however at least trying something to limit the disgustingly keyboard warriors with their bigoted, racists, misogynist terms or certain sections bigoted songs you hear in Scotland is worth a try.
All of these would/could be covered already by existing legislation. Breach of the peace for example.
With regards to the Scottish football songs & comments remember that it's not just the people in the exchange who are involved here. It's onlookers too. So you could have a situation where a Celtic & Rangers fan who are friends have some colourful "banter" but a third party may take offence and report one of them. It's a clipe's charter."
Well they are not because the thread of the law is to highlight why an offence took place, so you can have assault aggravated by bigoted language.
Also I wouldn't call being called a fenland, papists, taig bar steward as colourful banter...its bigotry and should be outlawed. |
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"It might not be the answer, however at least trying something to limit the disgustingly keyboard warriors with their bigoted, racists, misogynist terms or certain sections bigoted songs you hear in Scotland is worth a try.
All of these would/could be covered already by existing legislation. Breach of the peace for example.
With regards to the Scottish football songs & comments remember that it's not just the people in the exchange who are involved here. It's onlookers too. So you could have a situation where a Celtic & Rangers fan who are friends have some colourful "banter" but a third party may take offence and report one of them. It's a clipe's charter.
Well they are not because the thread of the law is to highlight why an offence took place, so you can have assault aggravated by bigoted language.
Also I wouldn't call being called a fenland, papists, taig bar steward as colourful banter...its bigotry and should be outlawed."
I get that you wouldn't. But my father (life long Celtic fan) calls his mate (life long Rangers fan) all sorts and vice versa. This could be viewed by many as a hate crime. That is ridiculous. Whilst such an exchange between friends would be unlikely to result in a prosecution, it could still be investigated and result in someone being on a register for a Hate Crime Incident.
I agree that this language is mostly used in a hateful & bigoted way but I honestly don't think you can legislate for this. I think it comes down to education and implementing changes in society from primary school age. |
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"It might not be the answer, however at least trying something to limit the disgustingly keyboard warriors with their bigoted, racists, misogynist terms or certain sections bigoted songs you hear in Scotland is worth a try.
All of these would/could be covered already by existing legislation. Breach of the peace for example.
With regards to the Scottish football songs & comments remember that it's not just the people in the exchange who are involved here. It's onlookers too. So you could have a situation where a Celtic & Rangers fan who are friends have some colourful "banter" but a third party may take offence and report one of them. It's a clipe's charter.
Well they are not because the thread of the law is to highlight why an offence took place, so you can have assault aggravated by bigoted language.
Also I wouldn't call being called a fenland, papists, taig bar steward as colourful banter...its bigotry and should be outlawed.
I get that you wouldn't. But my father (life long Celtic fan) calls his mate (life long Rangers fan) all sorts and vice versa. This could be viewed by many as a hate crime. That is ridiculous. Whilst such an exchange between friends would be unlikely to result in a prosecution, it could still be investigated and result in someone being on a register for a Hate Crime Incident.
I agree that this language is mostly used in a hateful & bigoted way but I honestly don't think you can legislate for this. I think it comes down to education and implementing changes in society from primary school age."
You should hear some of the things said between friends of different races.
Here's the thing, something is only derogatory if said in such a manner, and taken in such a manner. |
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"It might not be the answer, however at least trying something to limit the disgustingly keyboard warriors with their bigoted, racists, misogynist terms or certain sections bigoted songs you hear in Scotland is worth a try.
All of these would/could be covered already by existing legislation. Breach of the peace for example.
With regards to the Scottish football songs & comments remember that it's not just the people in the exchange who are involved here. It's onlookers too. So you could have a situation where a Celtic & Rangers fan who are friends have some colourful "banter" but a third party may take offence and report one of them. It's a clipe's charter.
Well they are not because the thread of the law is to highlight why an offence took place, so you can have assault aggravated by bigoted language.
Also I wouldn't call being called a fenland, papists, taig bar steward as colourful banter...its bigotry and should be outlawed.
I get that you wouldn't. But my father (life long Celtic fan) calls his mate (life long Rangers fan) all sorts and vice versa. This could be viewed by many as a hate crime. That is ridiculous. Whilst such an exchange between friends would be unlikely to result in a prosecution, it could still be investigated and result in someone being on a register for a Hate Crime Incident.
I agree that this language is mostly used in a hateful & bigoted way but I honestly don't think you can legislate for this. I think it comes down to education and implementing changes in society from primary school age.
You should hear some of the things said between friends of different races.
Here's the thing, something is only derogatory if said in such a manner, and taken in such a manner. "
I can imagine 
I'm sure there's a joke there somewhere about a black Celtic fan and a Chinese Rangers fan.....but I'll keep that for another day |
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By *uietbloke67Man 38 weeks ago
outside your bedroom window ;-) |
"It might not be the answer, however at least trying something to limit the disgustingly keyboard warriors with their bigoted, racists, misogynist terms or certain sections bigoted songs you hear in Scotland is worth a try.
All of these would/could be covered already by existing legislation. Breach of the peace for example.
With regards to the Scottish football songs & comments remember that it's not just the people in the exchange who are involved here. It's onlookers too. So you could have a situation where a Celtic & Rangers fan who are friends have some colourful "banter" but a third party may take offence and report one of them. It's a clipe's charter.
Well they are not because the thread of the law is to highlight why an offence took place, so you can have assault aggravated by bigoted language.
Also I wouldn't call being called a fenland, papists, taig bar steward as colourful banter...its bigotry and should be outlawed.
I get that you wouldn't. But my father (life long Celtic fan) calls his mate (life long Rangers fan) all sorts and vice versa. This could be viewed by many as a hate crime. That is ridiculous. Whilst such an exchange between friends would be unlikely to result in a prosecution, it could still be investigated and result in someone being on a register for a Hate Crime Incident.
I agree that this language is mostly used in a hateful & bigoted way but I honestly don't think you can legislate for this. I think it comes down to education and implementing changes in society from primary school age."
Unfortunately though it's dangerous, we have seen far too many funerals through bigotry.
You might not think you can legislate against it, however 40 years ago people thought you couldn't legislate against racism.
My point is they are trying to do something about it, it may or may not work in the long run, however the person that never tried neve failed. |
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"It might not be the answer, however at least trying something to limit the disgustingly keyboard warriors with their bigoted, racists, misogynist terms or certain sections bigoted songs you hear in Scotland is worth a try.
All of these would/could be covered already by existing legislation. Breach of the peace for example.
With regards to the Scottish football songs & comments remember that it's not just the people in the exchange who are involved here. It's onlookers too. So you could have a situation where a Celtic & Rangers fan who are friends have some colourful "banter" but a third party may take offence and report one of them. It's a clipe's charter.
Well they are not because the thread of the law is to highlight why an offence took place, so you can have assault aggravated by bigoted language.
Also I wouldn't call being called a fenland, papists, taig bar steward as colourful banter...its bigotry and should be outlawed.
I get that you wouldn't. But my father (life long Celtic fan) calls his mate (life long Rangers fan) all sorts and vice versa. This could be viewed by many as a hate crime. That is ridiculous. Whilst such an exchange between friends would be unlikely to result in a prosecution, it could still be investigated and result in someone being on a register for a Hate Crime Incident.
I agree that this language is mostly used in a hateful & bigoted way but I honestly don't think you can legislate for this. I think it comes down to education and implementing changes in society from primary school age.
Unfortunately though it's dangerous, we have seen far too many funerals through bigotry.
You might not think you can legislate against it, however 40 years ago people thought you couldn't legislate against racism.
My point is they are trying to do something about it, it may or may not work in the long run, however the person that never tried neve failed."
Loosely worded legislation that is open to manipulation is also dangerous |
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By *uietbloke67Man 38 weeks ago
outside your bedroom window ;-) |
"It might not be the answer, however at least trying something to limit the disgustingly keyboard warriors with their bigoted, racists, misogynist terms or certain sections bigoted songs you hear in Scotland is worth a try.
All of these would/could be covered already by existing legislation. Breach of the peace for example.
With regards to the Scottish football songs & comments remember that it's not just the people in the exchange who are involved here. It's onlookers too. So you could have a situation where a Celtic & Rangers fan who are friends have some colourful "banter" but a third party may take offence and report one of them. It's a clipe's charter.
Well they are not because the thread of the law is to highlight why an offence took place, so you can have assault aggravated by bigoted language.
Also I wouldn't call being called a fenland, papists, taig bar steward as colourful banter...its bigotry and should be outlawed.
I get that you wouldn't. But my father (life long Celtic fan) calls his mate (life long Rangers fan) all sorts and vice versa. This could be viewed by many as a hate crime. That is ridiculous. Whilst such an exchange between friends would be unlikely to result in a prosecution, it could still be investigated and result in someone being on a register for a Hate Crime Incident.
I agree that this language is mostly used in a hateful & bigoted way but I honestly don't think you can legislate for this. I think it comes down to education and implementing changes in society from primary school age.
Unfortunately though it's dangerous, we have seen far too many funerals through bigotry.
You might not think you can legislate against it, however 40 years ago people thought you couldn't legislate against racism.
My point is they are trying to do something about it, it may or may not work in the long run, however the person that never tried neve failed.
Loosely worded legislation that is open to manipulation is also dangerous "
I don't disagree with you, there is a clause that does state it is someone right to offend someone else and that's not a crime.
As I say my point is they are trying to do something, it may be misguided or worded incorrectly at this junction but that can change with time and implementation. |
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Fab will not allow naming and shaming because it will be abused. This ill considered, unnecessary, attempt at a popularist law by the failing SNP will fail in the same way. It will be used as a method of "getting back" at those that are not liked. |
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"It might not be the answer, however at least trying something to limit the disgustingly keyboard warriors with their bigoted, racists, misogynist terms or certain sections bigoted songs you hear in Scotland is worth a try.
All of these would/could be covered already by existing legislation. Breach of the peace for example.
With regards to the Scottish football songs & comments remember that it's not just the people in the exchange who are involved here. It's onlookers too. So you could have a situation where a Celtic & Rangers fan who are friends have some colourful "banter" but a third party may take offence and report one of them. It's a clipe's charter.
Well they are not because the thread of the law is to highlight why an offence took place, so you can have assault aggravated by bigoted language.
Also I wouldn't call being called a fenland, papists, taig bar steward as colourful banter...its bigotry and should be outlawed.
I get that you wouldn't. But my father (life long Celtic fan) calls his mate (life long Rangers fan) all sorts and vice versa. This could be viewed by many as a hate crime. That is ridiculous. Whilst such an exchange between friends would be unlikely to result in a prosecution, it could still be investigated and result in someone being on a register for a Hate Crime Incident.
I agree that this language is mostly used in a hateful & bigoted way but I honestly don't think you can legislate for this. I think it comes down to education and implementing changes in society from primary school age.
Unfortunately though it's dangerous, we have seen far too many funerals through bigotry.
You might not think you can legislate against it, however 40 years ago people thought you couldn't legislate against racism.
My point is they are trying to do something about it, it may or may not work in the long run, however the person that never tried neve failed.
Loosely worded legislation that is open to manipulation is also dangerous
I don't disagree with you, there is a clause that does state it is someone right to offend someone else and that's not a crime.
As I say my point is they are trying to do something, it may be misguided or worded incorrectly at this junction but that can change with time and implementation."
You don’t just take a punt at solving societal problems with misguided legislation. The law is not designed for “trial and error”.
You try out policies, and campaigns and think tanks, working groups…. Not potentially giving people criminal records while you have a practice run that you plan to keep tinkering with |
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"It might not be the answer, however at least trying something to limit the disgustingly keyboard warriors with their bigoted, racists, misogynist terms or certain sections bigoted songs you hear in Scotland is worth a try.
All of these would/could be covered already by existing legislation. Breach of the peace for example.
With regards to the Scottish football songs & comments remember that it's not just the people in the exchange who are involved here. It's onlookers too. So you could have a situation where a Celtic & Rangers fan who are friends have some colourful "banter" but a third party may take offence and report one of them. It's a clipe's charter.
Well they are not because the thread of the law is to highlight why an offence took place, so you can have assault aggravated by bigoted language.
Also I wouldn't call being called a fenland, papists, taig bar steward as colourful banter...its bigotry and should be outlawed.
I get that you wouldn't. But my father (life long Celtic fan) calls his mate (life long Rangers fan) all sorts and vice versa. This could be viewed by many as a hate crime. That is ridiculous. Whilst such an exchange between friends would be unlikely to result in a prosecution, it could still be investigated and result in someone being on a register for a Hate Crime Incident.
I agree that this language is mostly used in a hateful & bigoted way but I honestly don't think you can legislate for this. I think it comes down to education and implementing changes in society from primary school age.
Unfortunately though it's dangerous, we have seen far too many funerals through bigotry.
You might not think you can legislate against it, however 40 years ago people thought you couldn't legislate against racism.
My point is they are trying to do something about it, it may or may not work in the long run, however the person that never tried neve failed."
How exactly have we legislated against racism? Did that really work? Hate speech laws are just lame attempts by governments to take away individual rights. They haven't really solved any problems on the ground. |
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It's a perpetual motion law.
I say something online ten people are offended and report it 100 people read what the ten said 30 are offended by those who are claiming to be offended and it continues fueling it's feeding hate, ignorance, stupidity, sycophants,lack of choice and opinions the list goes on.
How many actual cases are going to be prosecuted?
The resources are not available to effectively ensure the law is a deterrent.
And in an age where everyone is offended by absolutely anything define "hate".
Just another bandwagon jumped on to keep the vocal wingers happy. |
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By *uietbloke67Man 38 weeks ago
outside your bedroom window ;-) |
Ayr your right, we should do absolutely nothing, let people post on line that someone should.be killed, subject to verbal assults or sexually assaulted because that's "free speech" and the freedom to say whatever you want to whomever you want always trumps the others person ability to lead a life without fear, persecution or anxiety.
Madness, absolute madness.
I'm out |
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"Ayr your right, we should do absolutely nothing, let people post on line that someone should.be killed, subject to verbal assults or sexually assaulted because that's "free speech" and the freedom to say whatever you want to whomever you want always trumps the others person ability to lead a life without fear, persecution or anxiety.
Madness, absolute madness.
I'm out "
The examples you've given would (quite rightly) be covered by existing legislation.
The language of this new law makes it open to all sorts of misinterpretation, as the thousands of reports against JK Rowling demonstrates. What could offend one person will not offend another person. A transwoman within earshot could report me if they overheard me expressing my gender critical beliefs. And depending on how fragile they were, they could argue that I was making them feel unsafe. Another transwoman may be completely indifferent to my views or even support them. |
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By (user no longer on site) 38 weeks ago
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"Ayr your right, we should do absolutely nothing, let people post on line that someone should.be killed, subject to verbal assults or sexually assaulted because that's "free speech" and the freedom to say whatever you want to whomever you want always trumps the others person ability to lead a life without fear, persecution or anxiety.
Madness, absolute madness.
I'm out
The examples you've given would (quite rightly) be covered by existing legislation.
The language of this new law makes it open to all sorts of misinterpretation, as the thousands of reports against JK Rowling demonstrates. What could offend one person will not offend another person. A transwoman within earshot could report me if they overheard me expressing my gender critical beliefs. And depending on how fragile they were, they could argue that I was making them feel unsafe. Another transwoman may be completely indifferent to my views or even support them. "
is there an issue ppl will make a claim through miss interpretation or maliciousness. Possibly. Most people don't know the law.
Will it result on prosecutions? Only if you actually broke the law.
Now, I'm catching up but the bill seems to cover aggravated offences and stirring up hate. Neither of which would cover being overheard making a gender critical comment. |
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"Ayr your right, we should do absolutely nothing, let people post on line that someone should.be killed, subject to verbal assults or sexually assaulted because that's "free speech" and the freedom to say whatever you want to whomever you want always trumps the others person ability to lead a life without fear, persecution or anxiety.
Madness, absolute madness.
I'm out
The examples you've given would (quite rightly) be covered by existing legislation.
The language of this new law makes it open to all sorts of misinterpretation, as the thousands of reports against JK Rowling demonstrates. What could offend one person will not offend another person. A transwoman within earshot could report me if they overheard me expressing my gender critical beliefs. And depending on how fragile they were, they could argue that I was making them feel unsafe. Another transwoman may be completely indifferent to my views or even support them. is there an issue ppl will make a claim through miss interpretation or maliciousness. Possibly. Most people don't know the law.
Will it result on prosecutions? Only if you actually broke the law.
Now, I'm catching up but the bill seems to cover aggravated offences and stirring up hate. Neither of which would cover being overheard making a gender critical comment. "
The process is the punishment.
I'm not convinced that many women will be prosecuted for expressing their gender critical beliefs. I am convinced however that irreparable damage can be done to a persons reputation if it is suggested that their comments were illegal and that they are bigots, transphobes and nazis. All of which are common tactics used by TRAs. When they're not actually physically assaulting women at protests that is. |
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By (user no longer on site) 38 weeks ago
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"Ayr your right, we should do absolutely nothing, let people post on line that someone should.be killed, subject to verbal assults or sexually assaulted because that's "free speech" and the freedom to say whatever you want to whomever you want always trumps the others person ability to lead a life without fear, persecution or anxiety.
Madness, absolute madness.
I'm out
The examples you've given would (quite rightly) be covered by existing legislation.
The language of this new law makes it open to all sorts of misinterpretation, as the thousands of reports against JK Rowling demonstrates. What could offend one person will not offend another person. A transwoman within earshot could report me if they overheard me expressing my gender critical beliefs. And depending on how fragile they were, they could argue that I was making them feel unsafe. Another transwoman may be completely indifferent to my views or even support them. is there an issue ppl will make a claim through miss interpretation or maliciousness. Possibly. Most people don't know the law.
Will it result on prosecutions? Only if you actually broke the law.
Now, I'm catching up but the bill seems to cover aggravated offences and stirring up hate. Neither of which would cover being overheard making a gender critical comment.
The process is the punishment.
I'm not convinced that many women will be prosecuted for expressing their gender critical beliefs. I am convinced however that irreparable damage can be done to a persons reputation if it is suggested that their comments were illegal and that they are bigots, transphobes and nazis. All of which are common tactics used by TRAs. When they're not actually physically assaulting women at protests that is."
would an investigation even start if there complaint had no basis ?
Anyone can make up a law if that's what these people are doing. and I get that false and unfounded claims are a concern. But how much should we not implement laws because of bad faith actors.
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"Ayr your right, we should do absolutely nothing, let people post on line that someone should.be killed, subject to verbal assults or sexually assaulted because that's "free speech" and the freedom to say whatever you want to whomever you want always trumps the others person ability to lead a life without fear, persecution or anxiety.
Madness, absolute madness.
I'm out
The examples you've given would (quite rightly) be covered by existing legislation.
The language of this new law makes it open to all sorts of misinterpretation, as the thousands of reports against JK Rowling demonstrates. What could offend one person will not offend another person. A transwoman within earshot could report me if they overheard me expressing my gender critical beliefs. And depending on how fragile they were, they could argue that I was making them feel unsafe. Another transwoman may be completely indifferent to my views or even support them. is there an issue ppl will make a claim through miss interpretation or maliciousness. Possibly. Most people don't know the law.
Will it result on prosecutions? Only if you actually broke the law.
Now, I'm catching up but the bill seems to cover aggravated offences and stirring up hate. Neither of which would cover being overheard making a gender critical comment.
The process is the punishment.
I'm not convinced that many women will be prosecuted for expressing their gender critical beliefs. I am convinced however that irreparable damage can be done to a persons reputation if it is suggested that their comments were illegal and that they are bigots, transphobes and nazis. All of which are common tactics used by TRAs. When they're not actually physically assaulting women at protests that is.would an investigation even start if there complaint had no basis ?
Anyone can make up a law if that's what these people are doing. and I get that false and unfounded claims are a concern. But how much should we not implement laws because of bad faith actors.
"
Listen to the last half hour of BBC Scotland Drive Time, tonight's episode. From around 5.30pm onwards, BBC Iplayer. A senior police officer explains how every single report has to be thoroughly checked & logged and hints that it is completely unworkable given fewer police,a high number of reports and mass misunderstanding of what the law does & does not do. Also demonstrates how there are inconsistencies in how the police are recording reports with a Tory MP having a non hate crime incident logged against him for an apparent transphobic tweet, yet no action was taken against JK for her mega tweet. |
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By (user no longer on site) 38 weeks ago
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"Ayr your right, we should do absolutely nothing, let people post on line that someone should.be killed, subject to verbal assults or sexually assaulted because that's "free speech" and the freedom to say whatever you want to whomever you want always trumps the others person ability to lead a life without fear, persecution or anxiety.
Madness, absolute madness.
I'm out
The examples you've given would (quite rightly) be covered by existing legislation.
The language of this new law makes it open to all sorts of misinterpretation, as the thousands of reports against JK Rowling demonstrates. What could offend one person will not offend another person. A transwoman within earshot could report me if they overheard me expressing my gender critical beliefs. And depending on how fragile they were, they could argue that I was making them feel unsafe. Another transwoman may be completely indifferent to my views or even support them. is there an issue ppl will make a claim through miss interpretation or maliciousness. Possibly. Most people don't know the law.
Will it result on prosecutions? Only if you actually broke the law.
Now, I'm catching up but the bill seems to cover aggravated offences and stirring up hate. Neither of which would cover being overheard making a gender critical comment.
The process is the punishment.
I'm not convinced that many women will be prosecuted for expressing their gender critical beliefs. I am convinced however that irreparable damage can be done to a persons reputation if it is suggested that their comments were illegal and that they are bigots, transphobes and nazis. All of which are common tactics used by TRAs. When they're not actually physically assaulting women at protests that is.would an investigation even start if there complaint had no basis ?
Anyone can make up a law if that's what these people are doing. and I get that false and unfounded claims are a concern. But how much should we not implement laws because of bad faith actors.
Listen to the last half hour of BBC Scotland Drive Time, tonight's episode. From around 5.30pm onwards, BBC Iplayer. A senior police officer explains how every single report has to be thoroughly checked & logged and hints that it is completely unworkable given fewer police,a high number of reports and mass misunderstanding of what the law does & does not do. Also demonstrates how there are inconsistencies in how the police are recording reports with a Tory MP having a non hate crime incident logged against him for an apparent transphobic tweet, yet no action was taken against JK for her mega tweet."
i can believe there are a load of unnecessary reporting.
Which hasn't been helped with any of the newspaper reporting. There are agendas here. Even if it's just cash.
That doesn't in itself make it wrong law.
Or that there should be a concern of mud sticking. At least no more than today being called transphobe.
Perhaps high profile people will have reports of being investigated if that leaks. I would wonder what the bar is for being investigated rather than checked and logged (which probably includes missing informed cases)
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By (user no longer on site) 38 weeks ago
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Another hate crime law that is noted and duly ignored to be honest. Good luck enforcing it, Scottish police's recent comments about JK Rowling are good defence evidence for most reasonable folk. |
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"More than 3,000 complaints already. Great way for an already stretched police force to spend their time. But it's a huge win for authoritarian politicians I guess.
"
It was reported that a large number of those were crank calls organised by white supremacists. With the aim of wasting police time. |
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"More than 3,000 complaints already. Great way for an already stretched police force to spend their time. But it's a huge win for authoritarian politicians I guess.
It was reported that a large number of those were crank calls organised by white supremacists. With the aim of wasting police time. "
Who reported that?
Are we now suggesting that anyone who complains about Yousaf's racist rant is a 'white supremacist'? |
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"More than 3,000 complaints already. Great way for an already stretched police force to spend their time. But it's a huge win for authoritarian politicians I guess.
It was reported that a large number of those were crank calls organised by white supremacists. With the aim of wasting police time. "
Can you share that report? I am curious to know what led to the conclusion that the callers were white supremacists. |
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"More than 3,000 complaints already. Great way for an already stretched police force to spend their time. But it's a huge win for authoritarian politicians I guess.
It was reported that a large number of those were crank calls organised by white supremacists. With the aim of wasting police time.
Can you share that report? I am curious to know what led to the conclusion that the callers were white supremacists."
It's in the Observer. So you have to battle through the abysmal reporting to get to the points. |
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"More than 3,000 complaints already. Great way for an already stretched police force to spend their time. But it's a huge win for authoritarian politicians I guess.
It was reported that a large number of those were crank calls organised by white supremacists. With the aim of wasting police time.
Can you share that report? I am curious to know what led to the conclusion that the callers were white supremacists.
It's in the Observer. So you have to battle through the abysmal reporting to get to the points. "
Are you sure? There's no way the Scott Trust would blame the 'for right' |
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"More than 3,000 complaints already. Great way for an already stretched police force to spend their time. But it's a huge win for authoritarian politicians I guess.
It was reported that a large number of those were crank calls organised by white supremacists. With the aim of wasting police time. "
That's some excellent detective work right there. Ascertaining the political leanings of the individual who reports the hate crime when the process is anonymous. |
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"More than 3,000 complaints already. Great way for an already stretched police force to spend their time. But it's a huge win for authoritarian politicians I guess.
It was reported that a large number of those were crank calls organised by white supremacists. With the aim of wasting police time.
That's some excellent detective work right there. Ascertaining the political leanings of the individual who reports the hate crime when the process is anonymous."
Yup! 94.31% of statistics are made up on the spot.
The SNP have just stated that this response indicates the great need for the legislation and that every report will be thoroughly investigated. Regretfully lesser crimes like murder, rap*, GBH, theft, robbery etc will have to take a back seat for a while. |
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"More than 3,000 complaints already. Great way for an already stretched police force to spend their time. But it's a huge win for authoritarian politicians I guess.
It was reported that a large number of those were crank calls organised by white supremacists. With the aim of wasting police time.
That's some excellent detective work right there. Ascertaining the political leanings of the individual who reports the hate crime when the process is anonymous."
The jist is they found an on line group of people organising the act of civil disobedience. |
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Very true same as my son being verbally assaulted as Orange scum at the weekend then being assaulted physically by two men on his way home from a football game. I have reported this not only to the police but to acwell known anti bigotry charity. Their disinterest was alarming. |
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" Very true same as my son being verbally assaulted as Orange scum at the weekend then being assaulted physically by two men on his way home from a football game. I have reported this not only to the police but to acwell known anti bigotry charity. Their disinterest was alarming."
Thats not surprising as the orange order and there followers think they are above the law in scotland |
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By (user no longer on site) 37 weeks ago
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" Very true same as my son being verbally assaulted as Orange scum at the weekend then being assaulted physically by two men on his way home from a football game. I have reported this not only to the police but to acwell known anti bigotry charity. Their disinterest was alarming.
Thats not surprising as the orange order and there followers think they are above the law in scotland"
I read it as the insult was the son was orange order, not that the insult came from orange order!
It's these cases the new law was designed for. The disinterest is the concern ! |
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" Very true same as my son being verbally assaulted as Orange scum at the weekend then being assaulted physically by two men on his way home from a football game. I have reported this not only to the police but to acwell known anti bigotry charity. Their disinterest was alarming.
Thats not surprising as the orange order and there followers think they are above the law in scotlandI read it as the insult was the son was orange order, not that the insult came from orange order!
It's these cases the new law was designed for. The disinterest is the concern ! "
You could be right ,maybe the lady will let us know |
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It's a massive overreach by the Scottish government and the SNP will pay big time for it at the polls, I'm sure!
Everything about this act is entirely wrong and should have no place in law.
Legislating people's thoughts and feelings should never be OK. You'd think that we would have learned this from the two unspeakably evil ideologies and regimes of the last century. |
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"It might not be the answer, however at least trying something to limit the disgustingly keyboard warriors with their bigoted, racists, misogynist terms or certain sections bigoted songs you hear in Scotland is worth a try.
"
Would it lead to the arrest of bigots lynching effigies of protestants? Can a certain paedophile ring be done for giving the ok to the goon brigade to fly sectarian banners? |
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By (user no longer on site) 37 weeks ago
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"It's a massive overreach by the Scottish government and the SNP will pay big time for it at the polls, I'm sure!
Everything about this act is entirely wrong and should have no place in law.
Legislating people's thoughts and feelings should never be OK. You'd think that we would have learned this from the two unspeakably evil ideologies and regimes of the last century. "
that's not what is doing afaik.
Ironically I'd see it being more a law that would stop a Hitler whipping up hate than a law that enables him. |
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" Very true same as my son being verbally assaulted as Orange scum at the weekend then being assaulted physically by two men on his way home from a football game. I have reported this not only to the police but to acwell known anti bigotry charity. Their disinterest was alarming.
Thats not surprising as the orange order and there followers think they are above the law in scotland"
You didn't read it did you. Too busy being sectarian. You lot can't help yourselves. |
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" Very true same as my son being verbally assaulted as Orange scum at the weekend then being assaulted physically by two men on his way home from a football game. I have reported this not only to the police but to acwell known anti bigotry charity. Their disinterest was alarming."
Certain sections of the community get away with their sectarianism as the snp agree with them. |
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"More than 3,000 complaints already. Great way for an already stretched police force to spend their time. But it's a huge win for authoritarian politicians I guess.
It was reported that a large number of those were crank calls organised by white supremacists. With the aim of wasting police time. "
You need to lay off the drugs. |
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Just a thought.. if any foreign tourists visit Scotland, should they be pre-warned beforehand?
As an English male should I be extra careful when visiting Scotland incase I get locked up for 7 years ? |
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By (user no longer on site) 37 weeks ago
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"Just a thought.. if any foreign tourists visit Scotland, should they be pre-warned beforehand?
As an English male should I be extra careful when visiting Scotland incase I get locked up for 7 years ?"
what are you thinking of doing you now cant ?
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"Just a thought.. if any foreign tourists visit Scotland, should they be pre-warned beforehand?
As an English male should I be extra careful when visiting Scotland incase I get locked up for 7 years ?"
Yeah definitely.  |
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"Just a thought.. if any foreign tourists visit Scotland, should they be pre-warned beforehand?
As an English male should I be extra careful when visiting Scotland incase I get locked up for 7 years ?what are you thinking of doing you now cant ?
"
Parents not been keen on a guy identifying as a woman going into toilets with their daughter being an example
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By (user no longer on site) 37 weeks ago
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"Just a thought.. if any foreign tourists visit Scotland, should they be pre-warned beforehand?
As an English male should I be extra careful when visiting Scotland incase I get locked up for 7 years ?what are you thinking of doing you now cant ?
Parents not been keen on a guy identifying as a woman going into toilets with their daughter being an example
"
nothing to do with that law. Unless they beat the persom up. Or somehow whip up a crowd to hate on someone because they identify as a women. Otherwise they can do exactly as they can on the rest of UK. Phew.
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"Just a thought.. if any foreign tourists visit Scotland, should they be pre-warned beforehand?
As an English male should I be extra careful when visiting Scotland incase I get locked up for 7 years ?what are you thinking of doing you now cant ?
Parents not been keen on a guy identifying as a woman going into toilets with their daughter being an example
nothing to do with that law. Unless they beat the persom up. Or somehow whip up a crowd to hate on someone because they identify as a women. Otherwise they can do exactly as they can on the rest of UK. Phew.
"
Well there's the issue. If they physically block the person identifying as a woman from entering the toilet. |
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By (user no longer on site) 37 weeks ago
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"Just a thought.. if any foreign tourists visit Scotland, should they be pre-warned beforehand?
As an English male should I be extra careful when visiting Scotland incase I get locked up for 7 years ?what are you thinking of doing you now cant ?
Parents not been keen on a guy identifying as a woman going into toilets with their daughter being an example
nothing to do with that law. Unless they beat the persom up. Or somehow whip up a crowd to hate on someone because they identify as a women. Otherwise they can do exactly as they can on the rest of UK. Phew.
Well there's the issue. If they physically block the person identifying as a woman from entering the toilet."
your have to get it up to a criminal offence level to have aggravation.
Which would mean you are doing something you can't do in the rUK. You may just get penalised more.
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"It's a massive overreach by the Scottish government and the SNP will pay big time for it at the polls, I'm sure!
Everything about this act is entirely wrong and should have no place in law.
Legislating people's thoughts and feelings should never be OK. You'd think that we would have learned this from the two unspeakably evil ideologies and regimes of the last century. that's not what is doing afaik.
Ironically I'd see it being more a law that would stop a Hitler whipping up hate than a law that enables him. "
Not really. It's exactly how you create another 'H'.
In fact, this law, which also covers what people say in the privacy of their own homes encourages members of the household to report their own family member(s).
Now that sounds very Hitler/Stalin-like. |
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" Very true same as my son being verbally assaulted as Orange scum at the weekend then being assaulted physically by two men on his way home from a football game. I have reported this not only to the police but to acwell known anti bigotry charity. Their disinterest was alarming.
Thats not surprising as the orange order and there followers think they are above the law in scotland
You didn't read it did you. Too busy being sectarian. You lot can't help yourselves. "
Whos you lot? |
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"It might not be the answer, however at least trying something to limit the disgustingly keyboard warriors with their bigoted, racists, misogynist terms or certain sections bigoted songs you hear in Scotland is worth a try.
What secterian banners would that be ?
Would it lead to the arrest of bigots lynching effigies of protestants? Can a certain paedophile ring be done for giving the ok to the goon brigade to fly sectarian banners? "
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"Just a thought.. if any foreign tourists visit Scotland, should they be pre-warned beforehand?
As an English male should I be extra careful when visiting Scotland incase I get locked up for 7 years ?what are you thinking of doing you now cant ?
Parents not been keen on a guy identifying as a woman going into toilets with their daughter being an example
"
will you be identifying as a woman and going into ladies toilets |
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By (user no longer on site) 37 weeks ago
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"It might not be the answer, however at least trying something to limit the disgustingly keyboard warriors with their bigoted, racists, misogynist terms or certain sections bigoted songs you hear in Scotland is worth a try.
What secterian banners would that be ?well said
Would it lead to the arrest of bigots lynching effigies of protestants? Can a certain paedophile ring be done for giving the ok to the goon brigade to fly sectarian banners? "
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By (user no longer on site) 37 weeks ago
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"It's a massive overreach by the Scottish government and the SNP will pay big time for it at the polls, I'm sure!
Everything about this act is entirely wrong and should have no place in law.
Legislating people's thoughts and feelings should never be OK. You'd think that we would have learned this from the two unspeakably evil ideologies and regimes of the last century. that's not what is doing afaik.
Ironically I'd see it being more a law that would stop a Hitler whipping up hate than a law that enables him.
Not really. It's exactly how you create another 'H'.
In fact, this law, which also covers what people say in the privacy of their own homes encourages members of the household to report their own family member(s).
Now that sounds very Hitler/Stalin-like."
od like to see which bits of the laws say this.
I suspect the encouragement is from having anonymous lines.
Should I be able to stir up hatred in my own home ? It's an interesting discussion.
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"It's a massive overreach by the Scottish government and the SNP will pay big time for it at the polls, I'm sure!
Everything about this act is entirely wrong and should have no place in law.
Legislating people's thoughts and feelings should never be OK. You'd think that we would have learned this from the two unspeakably evil ideologies and regimes of the last century. "
100% agree with you. But most people from England complaining about it don't know that England already has similar Draconian laws like the 2003 Communications Act and the 2006 Racial and Religious hatred act.
These politicians do not give a flying fuck about social harmony or protecting minorities. If there is an opportunity to take away your right to free expression, they will take it away. |
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" Very true same as my son being verbally assaulted as Orange scum at the weekend then being assaulted physically by two men on his way home from a football game. I have reported this not only to the police but to acwell known anti bigotry charity. Their disinterest was alarming.
Thats not surprising as the orange order and there followers think they are above the law in scotland
You didn't read it did you. Too busy being sectarian. You lot can't help yourselves.
Whos you lot?"
Sectarian scum who pretend they're not sectarian. |
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"It might not be the answer, however at least trying something to limit the disgustingly keyboard warriors with their bigoted, racists, misogynist terms or certain sections bigoted songs you hear in Scotland is worth a try.
What secterian banners would that be ?
Would it lead to the arrest of bigots lynching effigies of protestants? Can a certain paedophile ring be done for giving the ok to the goon brigade to fly sectarian banners? "
You know. The ones flown by paedo fans. |
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" Very true same as my son being verbally assaulted as Orange scum at the weekend then being assaulted physically by two men on his way home from a football game. I have reported this not only to the police but to acwell known anti bigotry charity. Their disinterest was alarming.
Thats not surprising as the orange order and there followers think they are above the law in scotland
You didn't read it did you. Too busy being sectarian. You lot can't help yourselves.
Whos you lot?
Sectarian scum who pretend they're not sectarian. "
like who ,what do they do to pretend they are not secterian? |
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"It might not be the answer, however at least trying something to limit the disgustingly keyboard warriors with their bigoted, racists, misogynist terms or certain sections bigoted songs you hear in Scotland is worth a try.
What secterian banners would that be ?
Would it lead to the arrest of bigots lynching effigies of protestants? Can a certain paedophile ring be done for giving the ok to the goon brigade to fly sectarian banners?
You know. The ones flown by paedo fans. "
what ones give examples pls |
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"It's a massive overreach by the Scottish government and the SNP will pay big time for it at the polls, I'm sure!
Everything about this act is entirely wrong and should have no place in law.
Legislating people's thoughts and feelings should never be OK. You'd think that we would have learned this from the two unspeakably evil ideologies and regimes of the last century.
100% agree with you. But most people from England complaining about it don't know that England already has similar Draconian laws like the 2003 Communications Act and the 2006 Racial and Religious hatred act.
These politicians do not give a flying fuck about social harmony or protecting minorities. If there is an opportunity to take away your right to free expression, they will take it away. "
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