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Genocide on Gaza
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"There are three who I think should be answering questions of how... In the 21st century.. genocide is being committed and allowed, by the West. https://www.google.com/amp/s/m.thewire.in/article/world/northern-gaza-israel-palestine-conflict/amp Yes the 7 October attacks are terrible but zero excuse for the latter! Benjamin netanyahu is a war criminal!! The others implicit are: Joe Biden and rishi Sunak, who both are *supplying* and assisting in *genocide* The isrealis are automatically believed in the propoganda they issue .. and while this attrocity, condoned by some, is being carried out .. people *still* condone the murder of all palisitinians including babies who die for being a palisitinian.. they know nothing of the world yet condemned to die by starvation or bombs! And this abhorrent fate *condoned* by the puppets in plain sight! Under the noses of a fucking useless president and a feeble little shit of a pm. *Incredible* " So, assume everyone gave you the power Mr CalicoJack, and asked you to dictate a solution to the Gaza/West Bank/Israel situation. What workable, equiable and universally acceptable plan would you dictate as a solution? | |||
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"I have a genuine question that i dont know the answer to and not sure where i would find a reputable source to check so please don’t pile on assuming my position in this. Is Rishi Sunak (I assume you mean to use him as a proxy for the UK government / military given his position) actually supplying weapons to Isreal? Or is that hyperbole for not cutting them off with sanctions etc? " We have export rules which allow UK companies who sell arms and parts to sell these to Israel as we do with many of our allied countries. Much in the same we we are able to buy things from the Americans (the new f35s etc) we also sell (and buy) licences to build our designs in those countries. | |||
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"I have a genuine question that i dont know the answer to and not sure where i would find a reputable source to check so please don’t pile on assuming my position in this. Is Rishi Sunak (I assume you mean to use him as a proxy for the UK government / military given his position) actually supplying weapons to Isreal? Or is that hyperbole for not cutting them off with sanctions etc? We have export rules which allow UK companies who sell arms and parts to sell these to Israel as we do with many of our allied countries. Much in the same we we are able to buy things from the Americans (the new f35s etc) we also sell (and buy) licences to build our designs in those countries." Thanks Thats what i had in my head but wasn’t confident i was correct. You read so often that “Rishi is supplying them” that I thought I must be completely wrong. I know it opens up the argument that not putting action in place to stop something is effectively enabling it , amounts to the same thing and the moral implications of that. But the statement that our govt is supplying is on its own objectively false. It might just be me, but i really think using misleading language undermines a whole arguement, even if you had a valid point to start with. | |||
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"I have a genuine question that i dont know the answer to and not sure where i would find a reputable source to check so please don’t pile on assuming my position in this. Is Rishi Sunak (I assume you mean to use him as a proxy for the UK government / military given his position) actually supplying weapons to Isreal? Or is that hyperbole for not cutting them off with sanctions etc? We have export rules which allow UK companies who sell arms and parts to sell these to Israel as we do with many of our allied countries. Much in the same we we are able to buy things from the Americans (the new f35s etc) we also sell (and buy) licences to build our designs in those countries. Thanks Thats what i had in my head but wasn’t confident i was correct. You read so often that “Rishi is supplying them” that I thought I must be completely wrong. I know it opens up the argument that not putting action in place to stop something is effectively enabling it , amounts to the same thing and the moral implications of that. But the statement that our govt is supplying is on its own objectively false. It might just be me, but i really think using misleading language undermines a whole arguement, even if you had a valid point to start with. " The government works in the interests of the arms industry. Not in the interests of morals. | |||
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" But the statement that our govt is supplying is on its own objectively false. It might just be me, but i really think using misleading language undermines a whole arguement, even if you had a valid point to start with. " "Misleading language" is the primary weapon of gaza unfortunately, its the same for most of the region. | |||
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"I have a genuine question that i dont know the answer to and not sure where i would find a reputable source to check so please don’t pile on assuming my position in this. Is Rishi Sunak (I assume you mean to use him as a proxy for the UK government / military given his position) actually supplying weapons to Isreal? Or is that hyperbole for not cutting them off with sanctions etc? We have export rules which allow UK companies who sell arms and parts to sell these to Israel as we do with many of our allied countries. Much in the same we we are able to buy things from the Americans (the new f35s etc) we also sell (and buy) licences to build our designs in those countries. Thanks Thats what i had in my head but wasn’t confident i was correct. You read so often that “Rishi is supplying them” that I thought I must be completely wrong. I know it opens up the argument that not putting action in place to stop something is effectively enabling it , amounts to the same thing and the moral implications of that. But the statement that our govt is supplying is on its own objectively false. It might just be me, but i really think using misleading language undermines a whole arguement, even if you had a valid point to start with. " It may be some time before we know what is true or false Uk sold arms to Saudi to bomb yemini civilians. Uk conducted over 50 reconnaissance spy plane missions for Israel in last 4 months. | |||
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"I have a genuine question that i dont know the answer to and not sure where i would find a reputable source to check so please don’t pile on assuming my position in this. Is Rishi Sunak (I assume you mean to use him as a proxy for the UK government / military given his position) actually supplying weapons to Isreal? Or is that hyperbole for not cutting them off with sanctions etc? We have export rules which allow UK companies who sell arms and parts to sell these to Israel as we do with many of our allied countries. Much in the same we we are able to buy things from the Americans (the new f35s etc) we also sell (and buy) licences to build our designs in those countries. Thanks Thats what i had in my head but wasn’t confident i was correct. You read so often that “Rishi is supplying them” that I thought I must be completely wrong. I know it opens up the argument that not putting action in place to stop something is effectively enabling it , amounts to the same thing and the moral implications of that. But the statement that our govt is supplying is on its own objectively false. It might just be me, but i really think using misleading language undermines a whole arguement, even if you had a valid point to start with. It may be some time before we know what is true or false Uk sold arms to Saudi to bomb yemini civilians. Uk conducted over 50 reconnaissance spy plane missions for Israel in last 4 months. " If it'd genocide why do Israel need anyone to fly reconnaissance missions for them? Wouldn't they just invade and shoot anyone they come across? Mrs c | |||
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"I have a genuine question that i dont know the answer to and not sure where i would find a reputable source to check so please don’t pile on assuming my position in this. Is Rishi Sunak (I assume you mean to use him as a proxy for the UK government / military given his position) actually supplying weapons to Isreal? Or is that hyperbole for not cutting them off with sanctions etc? We have export rules which allow UK companies who sell arms and parts to sell these to Israel as we do with many of our allied countries. Much in the same we we are able to buy things from the Americans (the new f35s etc) we also sell (and buy) licences to build our designs in those countries. Thanks Thats what i had in my head but wasn’t confident i was correct. You read so often that “Rishi is supplying them” that I thought I must be completely wrong. I know it opens up the argument that not putting action in place to stop something is effectively enabling it , amounts to the same thing and the moral implications of that. But the statement that our govt is supplying is on its own objectively false. It might just be me, but i really think using misleading language undermines a whole arguement, even if you had a valid point to start with. It may be some time before we know what is true or false Uk sold arms to Saudi to bomb yemini civilians. Uk conducted over 50 reconnaissance spy plane missions for Israel in last 4 months. " UK what? UK government? UK military? UK private companies? And is it “to bomb” or “which were then used to bomb” ? Did the contract specify what the use should be? I’m not saying that absence of it in a contract would justify selling weapons if there was reasonable evidence to suggest they would be used against civilians btw. A contract wouldn’t wipe your hands of moral responsibility. But all you see online these days is an exaggerated (or condensed if it suits the purpose better) version of events to lead people to a pre defined conclusion. Rather than give them the facts to allow them to come to their own. | |||
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"I have a genuine question that i dont know the answer to and not sure where i would find a reputable source to check so please don’t pile on assuming my position in this. Is Rishi Sunak (I assume you mean to use him as a proxy for the UK government / military given his position) actually supplying weapons to Isreal? Or is that hyperbole for not cutting them off with sanctions etc? We have export rules which allow UK companies who sell arms and parts to sell these to Israel as we do with many of our allied countries. Much in the same we we are able to buy things from the Americans (the new f35s etc) we also sell (and buy) licences to build our designs in those countries. Thanks Thats what i had in my head but wasn’t confident i was correct. You read so often that “Rishi is supplying them” that I thought I must be completely wrong. I know it opens up the argument that not putting action in place to stop something is effectively enabling it , amounts to the same thing and the moral implications of that. But the statement that our govt is supplying is on its own objectively false. It might just be me, but i really think using misleading language undermines a whole arguement, even if you had a valid point to start with. It may be some time before we know what is true or false Uk sold arms to Saudi to bomb yemini civilians. Uk conducted over 50 reconnaissance spy plane missions for Israel in last 4 months. If it'd genocide why do Israel need anyone to fly reconnaissance missions for them? Wouldn't they just invade and shoot anyone they come across? Mrs c" There is a problem with verbal inflation of the word genocide, same as far right, racist, fascist, woke and so on. It dilutes the word, and therefore waters down its meaning through over use and misuse. It allows for people to become sensitive, or they desensitise to not only the word but the use of the word. Do the actions of the IDF / Israel, meet the definition of genocide? | |||
Reply privately (closed, thread got too big) | |||
"I have a genuine question that i dont know the answer to and not sure where i would find a reputable source to check so please don’t pile on assuming my position in this. Is Rishi Sunak (I assume you mean to use him as a proxy for the UK government / military given his position) actually supplying weapons to Isreal? Or is that hyperbole for not cutting them off with sanctions etc? We have export rules which allow UK companies who sell arms and parts to sell these to Israel as we do with many of our allied countries. Much in the same we we are able to buy things from the Americans (the new f35s etc) we also sell (and buy) licences to build our designs in those countries. Thanks Thats what i had in my head but wasn’t confident i was correct. You read so often that “Rishi is supplying them” that I thought I must be completely wrong. I know it opens up the argument that not putting action in place to stop something is effectively enabling it , amounts to the same thing and the moral implications of that. But the statement that our govt is supplying is on its own objectively false. It might just be me, but i really think using misleading language undermines a whole arguement, even if you had a valid point to start with. It may be some time before we know what is true or false Uk sold arms to Saudi to bomb yemini civilians. Uk conducted over 50 reconnaissance spy plane missions for Israel in last 4 months. If it'd genocide why do Israel need anyone to fly reconnaissance missions for them? Wouldn't they just invade and shoot anyone they come across? Mrs c There is a problem with verbal inflation of the word genocide, same as far right, racist, fascist, woke and so on. It dilutes the word, and therefore waters down its meaning through over use and misuse. It allows for people to become sensitive, or they desensitise to not only the word but the use of the word. Do the actions of the IDF / Israel, meet the definition of genocide?" Short answer is no... However Hamas advocates for genocide of Jews, even paying Arabs for killing Jews, Mrs x | |||
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"I have a genuine question that i dont know the answer to and not sure where i would find a reputable source to check so please don’t pile on assuming my position in this. Is Rishi Sunak (I assume you mean to use him as a proxy for the UK government / military given his position) actually supplying weapons to Isreal? Or is that hyperbole for not cutting them off with sanctions etc? We have export rules which allow UK companies who sell arms and parts to sell these to Israel as we do with many of our allied countries. Much in the same we we are able to buy things from the Americans (the new f35s etc) we also sell (and buy) licences to build our designs in those countries. Thanks Thats what i had in my head but wasn’t confident i was correct. You read so often that “Rishi is supplying them” that I thought I must be completely wrong. I know it opens up the argument that not putting action in place to stop something is effectively enabling it , amounts to the same thing and the moral implications of that. But the statement that our govt is supplying is on its own objectively false. It might just be me, but i really think using misleading language undermines a whole arguement, even if you had a valid point to start with. It may be some time before we know what is true or false Uk sold arms to Saudi to bomb yemini civilians. Uk conducted over 50 reconnaissance spy plane missions for Israel in last 4 months. If it'd genocide why do Israel need anyone to fly reconnaissance missions for them? Wouldn't they just invade and shoot anyone they come across? Mrs c There is a problem with verbal inflation of the word genocide, same as far right, racist, fascist, woke and so on. It dilutes the word, and therefore waters down its meaning through over use and misuse. It allows for people to become sensitive, or they desensitise to not only the word but the use of the word. Do the actions of the IDF / Israel, meet the definition of genocide?Short answer is no... However Hamas advocates for genocide of Jews, even paying Arabs for killing Jews, Mrs x" Not just Jews, read the Quran (British library version ) to understand that as an idolater and disbeliever I am to be slain on the day of Allahs wish. | |||
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" Benjamin netanyahu is a war criminal!! " You'll need to justify that in terms other than "he's a piece of shit and I hate him". Perhaps you're right, but saying it loudly and with emotion didn't make it so. " Joe Biden and rishi Sunak, who both are *supplying* and assisting in *genocide* " You level a charge of genocide. Justify it in real terms and be prepared to defend it or shut up. You are trying to dehumanise someone with that accusation. Which group? How is Rishi Sunak "assisting in genocide"? Think carefully and answer clearly, not based on pure emotion, or rhetoric. " The isrealis are automatically believed in the propoganda they issue " Rubbish. Again, be clear or don't make baseless statements. How do you reach such a conclusion? " .. and while this attrocity, condoned by some, is being carried out .. people *still* condone the murder of all palisitinians including babies who die for being a palisitinian.. " Other than statements from a very few loud and reprehensible idiots, who *actually* condones "the murder of all palisitinians including babies who die for being a palisitinian.. "? Serious question. That's absolute rubbish and a disgusting lie. Whom are you trying to dehumanise by putting these words into their mouths? | |||
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"By every definition, Israel is committing war crimes. " Another incorrect statement. Do you even know what "every definition" is? Adding hyperbole actually takes away from intelligent people taking you seriously. If you said "there is a possibility that Israel has committed genocidal actions in their broader war against Hamas" and went on to demonstrate that, then yes, there could be a discussion. The definition of genocide, crucially, requires an "intent to destroy, in whole or in part, a ... group" (https://www.un.org/en/genocideprevention/genocide.shtml). This means that the reason behind any killing is the eradication of a group, as opposed to any military objectives. Once there are military objectives, rather then killing solely for the sake of reduction of numbers, the crime of genocide is no longer obvious. It can still be genocide, but the UN link above explains that: "The intent is the most difficult element to determine. To constitute genocide, there must be a proven intent on the part of perpetrators to physically destroy a national, ethnical, racial or religious group. Cultural destruction does not suffice, nor does an intention to simply disperse a group." So large numbers of deaths do not, in and of themselves, constitute genocide. This is where Hamas miscalculated and gave Israel a green light to go beyond what most of the world find acceptable behaviour. As long as Hamas does not surrender themselves and the Israeli hostages, Israel can simply claim that they have military objectives. Pretty much the only way to *prove* that Israel is committing genocide is to remove those military objectives and see what they do. That means surrender and giving back hostages. Most people know Israel would stop tomorrow if that occured. And if it didn't, then there'd be a good case for genocide. Rhetoric against an enemy is common during any war. Politicians need to be careful to stay away from genocidal language. Politicians from Israel have overstepped this line. Some have been punished, some have been misinterpreted and some have simply been wrong and got away with it. This is where the ICJ had told Israel to stay on top of the language used. This does not prove intent for genocide necessarily, but it can if it is widespread enough and actions prove this to be the case. This threshold *clearly is being approached but had not been met*, as evidenced by the fairly mild warning from the ICJ. " Collective punishment on this scale, against one people, is genocide. " Nope. You're just making up nonsense with statements like that. Collective punishment is a totally different war crime. Again, it's not clear cut when military objectives come into play. War is a horrible thing, but deaths of innocents do not constitute war crimes in and of themselves. " Over 30,000 murdered, with another 80,000 mutilated... " "Murdered" is an emotionally charged word that does not apply here. There might be murders within that number, but there is little if any evidence of that. "Killed" might be correct, but murder requires intent. Face it, the use of murder is both wrong and points to a desire to emotionally manipulate your audience (or a fundamental deficiency in English language). It's misleading. Unless you're of the opinion that all war is murder, perhaps. Now, urban warfare typically kills 9 innocent civilians for each enemy combatant (https://press.un.org/en/2022/sc14904.doc.htm). Current estimates suggest Israel are killing between 2 and 4 (https://www.bbc.com/news/world-middle-east-68387864). If Israel is looking to remove Hamas, then numbers of 30k are not excessive in order to hit all of their targets. It's grisly and horrible and completely unfair on innocent babies, there is absolutely no question of that. That's war. " But it's nothing new, in 2023, from 1 January until the day before 7 October, 600 Palestinians had been killed by Israeli action in Gaza. This doesn't include the West Bank statistics. " The other side of that is that Israel withdrew from Gaza completely in 2005 and forcibly removed all Israeli citizens. It was FREER then the West Bank. It could carve out it's own future! If it did not, after three years, become a belligerent state against Israel in 2008, there would be none of this. Israel does not gain at all from this situation. " The enclave is effectively a prison with no access by sea or air, and restricted access by land. So go figure..." Ask Egypt why they also enforce their border and flood tunnels. It isn't a prison. It's a small state with tightly controlled borders. Using this kind of language is unhelpful, really. Moreover, some people from Gaza worked regularly in Israel and people from all over the world went in and out as tourists. Any restrictions were (it could be argued) for legitimate security reasons. Many Gazans left without "escaping". You'd be fine if you simply said "some Gazans feel like it's an open air prison". Of course, that doesn't sound as punchy. | |||
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"There are three who I think should be answering questions of how... In the 21st century.. genocide is being committed and allowed, by the West. https://www.google.com/amp/s/m.thewire.in/article/world/northern-gaza-israel-palestine-conflict/amp Yes the 7 October attacks are terrible but zero excuse for the latter! Benjamin netanyahu is a war criminal!! The others implicit are: Joe Biden and rishi Sunak, who both are *supplying* and assisting in *genocide* The isrealis are automatically believed in the propoganda they issue .. and while this attrocity, condoned by some, is being carried out .. people *still* condone the murder of all palisitinians including babies who die for being a palisitinian.. they know nothing of the world yet condemned to die by starvation or bombs! And this abhorrent fate *condoned* by the puppets in plain sight! Under the noses of a fucking useless president and a feeble little shit of a pm. *Incredible* So, assume everyone gave you the power Mr CalicoJack, and asked you to dictate a solution to the Gaza/West Bank/Israel situation. What workable, equiable and universally acceptable plan would you dictate as a solution? " The American and UK government grow a backbone and stop pandering to a mass murderer would be good start. You know what the answer is, your just too cowardly to admit it to yourself | |||
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"There are three who I think should be answering questions of how... In the 21st century.. genocide is being committed and allowed, by the West. https://www.google.com/amp/s/m.thewire.in/article/world/northern-gaza-israel-palestine-conflict/amp Yes the 7 October attacks are terrible but zero excuse for the latter! Benjamin netanyahu is a war criminal!! The others implicit are: Joe Biden and rishi Sunak, who both are *supplying* and assisting in *genocide* The isrealis are automatically believed in the propoganda they issue .. and while this attrocity, condoned by some, is being carried out .. people *still* condone the murder of all palisitinians including babies who die for being a palisitinian.. they know nothing of the world yet condemned to die by starvation or bombs! And this abhorrent fate *condoned* by the puppets in plain sight! Under the noses of a fucking useless president and a feeble little shit of a pm. *Incredible* So, assume everyone gave you the power Mr CalicoJack, and asked you to dictate a solution to the Gaza/West Bank/Israel situation. What workable, equiable and universally acceptable plan would you dictate as a solution? The American and UK government grow a backbone and stop pandering to a mass murderer would be good start. You know what the answer is, your just too cowardly to admit it to yourself " Hamas are mass murderers, do you mean them. It would be great if they stopped but they won't. The genocide of every Jew is their ultimate aim, its literally in their constitution. They have a fund that pays Palestinians for any Jews they kill, doesn't sound very peaceful. Mrs x | |||
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"The cutting off of water, and utilities, and destruction of Shelther. (denying the basic hierarchy of needs) and creating conditions for disease to thrive, by withholding sanitation. The targeting of hospitals, schools, and other social services denying health care, education and welfare of the population. Denying enough aid to feed population, creating conditions of starvation. and the breakdown of law and order. Killing children who would of been parents and grandparents, denying future generations, preventing them the right to populate. Killing women, denying them the right to give birth to future generations." They don't 'target' such sites because of the purpose of the sites, they attack buildings they consider to be military targets. If Hamas were concerned about such casualties, they should stop using human shields. They should evacuate such locations when Israel warn they are about to attack. Hamas should hand over hostages, look for a ceasefire and remove all mention of genocide from its agenda. Maybe that would stop the fighting. But they don't want that. Mrs x | |||
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"There are three who I think should be answering questions of how... In the 21st century.. genocide is being committed and allowed, by the West. https://www.google.com/amp/s/m.thewire.in/article/world/northern-gaza-israel-palestine-conflict/amp Yes the 7 October attacks are terrible but zero excuse for the latter! Benjamin netanyahu is a war criminal!! The others implicit are: Joe Biden and rishi Sunak, who both are *supplying* and assisting in *genocide* The isrealis are automatically believed in the propoganda they issue .. and while this attrocity, condoned by some, is being carried out .. people *still* condone the murder of all palisitinians including babies who die for being a palisitinian.. they know nothing of the world yet condemned to die by starvation or bombs! And this abhorrent fate *condoned* by the puppets in plain sight! Under the noses of a fucking useless president and a feeble little shit of a pm. *Incredible* So, assume everyone gave you the power Mr CalicoJack, and asked you to dictate a solution to the Gaza/West Bank/Israel situation. What workable, equiable and universally acceptable plan would you dictate as a solution? The American and UK government grow a backbone and stop pandering to a mass murderer would be good start. You know what the answer is, your just too cowardly to admit it to yourself Hamas are mass murderers, do you mean them. It would be great if they stopped but they won't. The genocide of every Jew is their ultimate aim, its literally in their constitution. They have a fund that pays Palestinians for any Jews they kill, doesn't sound very peaceful. Mrs x" This  . | |||
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"The cutting off of water, and utilities, and destruction of Shelther. (denying the basic hierarchy of needs) and creating conditions for disease to thrive, by withholding sanitation. The targeting of hospitals, schools, and other social services denying health care, education and welfare of the population. Denying enough aid to feed population, creating conditions of starvation. and the breakdown of law and order. Killing children who would of been parents and grandparents, denying future generations, preventing them the right to populate. Killing women, denying them the right to give birth to future generations.They don't 'target' such sites because of the purpose of the sites, they attack buildings they consider to be military targets. If Hamas were concerned about such casualties, they should stop using human shields. They should evacuate such locations when Israel warn they are about to attack. Hamas should hand over hostages, look for a ceasefire and remove all mention of genocide from its agenda. Maybe that would stop the fighting. But they don't want that. Mrs x" That's right, it's the Palestinian children's own fault that they're getting mass killed, starved, and bombed. There's absolutely nothing Israel can do but to continue to bomb the shit out of them. | |||
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"The cutting off of water, and utilities, and destruction of Shelther. (denying the basic hierarchy of needs) and creating conditions for disease to thrive, by withholding sanitation. The targeting of hospitals, schools, and other social services denying health care, education and welfare of the population. Denying enough aid to feed population, creating conditions of starvation. and the breakdown of law and order. Killing children who would of been parents and grandparents, denying future generations, preventing them the right to populate. Killing women, denying them the right to give birth to future generations.They don't 'target' such sites because of the purpose of the sites, they attack buildings they consider to be military targets. If Hamas were concerned about such casualties, they should stop using human shields. They should evacuate such locations when Israel warn they are about to attack. Hamas should hand over hostages, look for a ceasefire and remove all mention of genocide from its agenda. Maybe that would stop the fighting. But they don't want that. Mrs x" I was not asking for a reply. | |||
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"The cutting off of water, and utilities, and destruction of Shelther. (denying the basic hierarchy of needs) and creating conditions for disease to thrive, by withholding sanitation. The targeting of hospitals, schools, and other social services denying health care, education and welfare of the population. Denying enough aid to feed population, creating conditions of starvation. and the breakdown of law and order. Killing children who would of been parents and grandparents, denying future generations, preventing them the right to populate. Killing women, denying them the right to give birth to future generations.They don't 'target' such sites because of the purpose of the sites, they attack buildings they consider to be military targets. If Hamas were concerned about such casualties, they should stop using human shields. They should evacuate such locations when Israel warn they are about to attack. Hamas should hand over hostages, look for a ceasefire and remove all mention of genocide from its agenda. Maybe that would stop the fighting. But they don't want that. Mrs x That's right, it's the Palestinian children's own fault that they're getting mass killed, starved, and bombed. There's absolutely nothing Israel can do but to continue to bomb the shit out of them. " Rafah to come And the west doing nothing but supplying bombs and intelligence. | |||
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"The cutting off of water, and utilities, and destruction of Shelther. (denying the basic hierarchy of needs) and creating conditions for disease to thrive, by withholding sanitation. The targeting of hospitals, schools, and other social services denying health care, education and welfare of the population. Denying enough aid to feed population, creating conditions of starvation. and the breakdown of law and order. Killing children who would of been parents and grandparents, denying future generations, preventing them the right to populate. Killing women, denying them the right to give birth to future generations." It says in the bible jews are the children of Satan Thousands of years later we now see what he meant | |||
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"The cutting off of water, and utilities, and destruction of Shelther. (denying the basic hierarchy of needs) and creating conditions for disease to thrive, by withholding sanitation. The targeting of hospitals, schools, and other social services denying health care, education and welfare of the population. Denying enough aid to feed population, creating conditions of starvation. and the breakdown of law and order. Killing children who would of been parents and grandparents, denying future generations, preventing them the right to populate. Killing women, denying them the right to give birth to future generations.They don't 'target' such sites because of the purpose of the sites, they attack buildings they consider to be military targets. If Hamas were concerned about such casualties, they should stop using human shields. They should evacuate such locations when Israel warn they are about to attack. Hamas should hand over hostages, look for a ceasefire and remove all mention of genocide from its agenda. Maybe that would stop the fighting. But they don't want that. Mrs x That's right, it's the Palestinian children's own fault that they're getting mass killed, starved, and bombed. There's absolutely nothing Israel can do but to continue to bomb the shit out of them. Rafah to come And the west doing nothing but supplying bombs and intelligence. " $$$ | |||
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"The cutting off of water, and utilities, and destruction of Shelther. (denying the basic hierarchy of needs) and creating conditions for disease to thrive, by withholding sanitation. The targeting of hospitals, schools, and other social services denying health care, education and welfare of the population. Denying enough aid to feed population, creating conditions of starvation. and the breakdown of law and order. Killing children who would of been parents and grandparents, denying future generations, preventing them the right to populate. Killing women, denying them the right to give birth to future generations. It says in the bible jews are the children of Satan Thousands of years later we now see what he meant " WTF | |||
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" It says in the bible jews are the children of Satan Thousands of years later we now see what he meant " It says in spiderman issue 1 that if you get burn by a radio active spider you get special spider powers | |||
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"The cutting off of water, and utilities, and destruction of Shelther. (denying the basic hierarchy of needs) and creating conditions for disease to thrive, by withholding sanitation. The targeting of hospitals, schools, and other social services denying health care, education and welfare of the population. Denying enough aid to feed population, creating conditions of starvation. and the breakdown of law and order. Killing children who would of been parents and grandparents, denying future generations, preventing them the right to populate. Killing women, denying them the right to give birth to future generations. It says in the bible jews are the children of Satan Thousands of years later we now see what he meant " That's a terrible thing to say, you are obviously antisemitic. Mrs x | |||
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"The cutting off of water, and utilities, and destruction of Shelther. (denying the basic hierarchy of needs) and creating conditions for disease to thrive, by withholding sanitation. The targeting of hospitals, schools, and other social services denying health care, education and welfare of the population. Denying enough aid to feed population, creating conditions of starvation. and the breakdown of law and order. Killing children who would of been parents and grandparents, denying future generations, preventing them the right to populate. Killing women, denying them the right to give birth to future generations.They don't 'target' such sites because of the purpose of the sites, they attack buildings they consider to be military targets. If Hamas were concerned about such casualties, they should stop using human shields. They should evacuate such locations when Israel warn they are about to attack. Hamas should hand over hostages, look for a ceasefire and remove all mention of genocide from its agenda. Maybe that would stop the fighting. But they don't want that. Mrs x I was not asking for a reply. " Because you don't want to listen to others who might be telling the truth. Mrs x | |||
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"The cutting off of water, and utilities, and destruction of Shelther. (denying the basic hierarchy of needs) and creating conditions for disease to thrive, by withholding sanitation. The targeting of hospitals, schools, and other social services denying health care, education and welfare of the population. Denying enough aid to feed population, creating conditions of starvation. and the breakdown of law and order. Killing children who would of been parents and grandparents, denying future generations, preventing them the right to populate. Killing women, denying them the right to give birth to future generations.They don't 'target' such sites because of the purpose of the sites, they attack buildings they consider to be military targets. If Hamas were concerned about such casualties, they should stop using human shields. They should evacuate such locations when Israel warn they are about to attack. Hamas should hand over hostages, look for a ceasefire and remove all mention of genocide from its agenda. Maybe that would stop the fighting. But they don't want that. Mrs x I was not asking for a reply. Because you don't want to listen to others who might be telling the truth. Mrs x" Rachel Corrie is the truth. | |||
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" It says in the bible jews are the children of Satan Thousands of years later we now see what he meant " 
Wow. You've stuck your flag down hard on this one and it's clear exactly where your stand.
Bold. | |||
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" It says in the bible jews are the children of Satan Thousands of years later we now see what he meant
Wow. You've stuck your flag down hard on this one and it's clear exactly where your stand.
Bold. "His comments are disgusting. Mrs x | |||
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" It says in the bible jews are the children of Satan Thousands of years later we now see what he meant
Wow. You've stuck your flag down hard on this one and it's clear exactly where your stand.
Bold. His comments are disgusting.
Mrs x"John 8:44 I believe. | |||
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" John 8:44 I believe." You know its make belive .. Right ? | |||
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" John 8:44 I believe. You know its make belive .. Right ?" Make believe or not it is what I found in the book, by John 8:44. Arron Bushell (self-Immolation) | |||
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" John 8:44 I believe. You know its make belive .. Right ? Make believe or not it is what I found in the book, by John 8:44. Arron Bushell (self-Immolation)" And at no point did you sit back and think, well that's a particularly horrid sentence I should probably not use it online to reflect my own opinion ? | |||
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" And at no point did you sit back and think, well that's a particularly horrid sentence I should probably not use it online to reflect my own opinion ? " To be fair, it's often useful to see where real people stand on certain subjects. It reminds us that entrenched and systemic anti-Semitism is alive and kicking. It puts Israel's existential challenges into perspective. Just like that AandE chap did. | |||
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" John 8:44 I believe. You know its make belive .. Right ? Make believe or not it is what I found in the book, by John 8:44. Arron Bushell (self-Immolation) And at no point did you sit back and think, well that's a particularly horrid sentence I should probably not use it online to reflect my own opinion ? " I am never surprised when a poster tries to lay blame at the wrong door, the person who wrote it can be contacted by clicking reply on the post that has offended you, I have looked up the sentence and saw it is their and it was wrote by John 8:44, if you have a issue you will need to contact the publisher and complain. | |||
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" And at no point did you sit back and think, well that's a particularly horrid sentence I should probably not use it online to reflect my own opinion ? To be fair, it's often useful to see where real people stand on certain subjects. It reminds us that entrenched and systemic anti-Semitism is alive and kicking. It puts Israel's existential challenges into perspective. Just like that AandE chap did." John 8:44 it is not my fault if that is he view, I just looked it up it is their, complain to those who wrote and published it which was not me. | |||
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" John 8:44 I believe. You know its make belive .. Right ? Make believe or not it is what I found in the book, by John 8:44. Arron Bushell (self-Immolation) And at no point did you sit back and think, well that's a particularly horrid sentence I should probably not use it online to reflect my own opinion ? I am never surprised when a poster tries to lay blame at the wrong door, the person who wrote it can be contacted by clicking reply on the post that has offended you, I have looked up the sentence and saw it is their and it was wrote by John 8:44, if you have a issue you will need to contact the publisher and complain." Written originally by yourself or not, rather then condem it you decided to take a moment to try and make it seem legit by showing the novel it was quite from, in turn making it seem like you support it. | |||
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" And at no point did you sit back and think, well that's a particularly horrid sentence I should probably not use it online to reflect my own opinion ? To be fair, it's often useful to see where real people stand on certain subjects. It reminds us that entrenched and systemic anti-Semitism is alive and kicking. It puts Israel's existential challenges into perspective. Just like that AandE chap did. John 8:44 it is not my fault if that is he view, I just looked it up it is their, complain to those who wrote and published it which was not me. " Why are people bringing it up? It's bullshit nonsense. | |||
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"Yes the 7 October attacks are terrible but zero excuse for the latter! " What would you say was a proportional response then? Finding 1400 random citizens, violating, massacring and cutting off their heads perhaps? Go read the Hamas charter, they literally call for genocide, as does anyone else who chants 'from the river to the sea'. | |||
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" John 8:44 I believe. You know its make belive .. Right ? Make believe or not it is what I found in the book, by John 8:44. Arron Bushell (self-Immolation) And at no point did you sit back and think, well that's a particularly horrid sentence I should probably not use it online to reflect my own opinion ? I am never surprised when a poster tries to lay blame at the wrong door, the person who wrote it can be contacted by clicking reply on the post that has offended you, I have looked up the sentence and saw it is their and it was wrote by John 8:44, if you have a issue you will need to contact the publisher and complain. Written originally by yourself or not, rather then condem it you decided to take a moment to try and make it seem legit by showing the novel it was quite from, in turn making it seem like you support it." This is not the news, I do not have to condemn anything because you are offended by a bible quote, and if it seems like something to you then it must seem right to you, if that what is seems like. Rachel Currie Arron Bushell | |||
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" And at no point did you sit back and think, well that's a particularly horrid sentence I should probably not use it online to reflect my own opinion ? To be fair, it's often useful to see where real people stand on certain subjects. It reminds us that entrenched and systemic anti-Semitism is alive and kicking. It puts Israel's existential challenges into perspective. Just like that AandE chap did. John 8:44 it is not my fault if that is he view, I just looked it up it is their, complain to those who wrote and published it which was not me. Why are people bringing it up? It's bullshit nonsense. " Because it has offended them. | |||
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" Why are people bringing it up? It's bullshit nonsense. " Because this is an online forum. Posts like that are a statistical inevitability. In a minute, there will be a quote from Meinkampf and The Protocols of the Elders is Zion (with a caveat of "look, I'm just saying..."). Then someone else will bring up pizzagate and tell us to do our own research. Welcome to the internet: https://youtu.be/k1BneeJTDcU?feature=shared | |||
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" This is not the news, I do not have to condemn anything because you are offended by a bible quote, and if it seems like something to you then it must seem right to you, if that what is seems like. Rachel Currie Arron Bushell" Why do you keep mentioning a daft woman that though stading infront of a massive bulldozer with minimal visibility was a good idea. ? | |||
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" This is not the news, I do not have to condemn anything because you are offended by a bible quote, and if it seems like something to you then it must seem right to you, if that what is seems like. Rachel Currie Arron Bushell Why do you keep mentioning a daft woman that though stading infront of a massive bulldozer with minimal visibility was a good idea. ?" Glad you looked one up | |||
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"But it's nothing new, in 2023, from 1 January until the day before 7 October, 600 Palestinians had been killed by Israeli action in Gaza. This doesn't include the West Bank statistics." All the deaths at the hands of Israeli soldiers are listed on Wikipedia - each one has the reason stated. Almost every death came as a result of violent behaviour towards the Israeli military - whether through throwing rocks, throwing molotov cocktails, shooting, bombing or so on. When a soldier sees someone armed, they don't get time to assess whether the weapon is a rock or a bomb - they have to make a judgment call. Meanwhile, Palestinians encourage child soldiers to martyr themselves. In Gazan schools they teach children to hate Jews, they even use The Protocols of The Elders of Zion as part of their school curriculum. This is not hyperbole - Palestinian TV broadcasts are easily available to find for yourself. Palestinians have been radicalised since the 1920s by people such as Amin Al Husseini, the antisemitic Grand Mufti who spent time hanging out with Hitler during WW2. | |||
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"The cutting off of water, and utilities" Why should Israel provide electricity and water to a nation that wants to destroy them? | |||
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"Yes the 7 October attacks are terrible but zero excuse for the latter! What would you say was a proportional response then? Finding 1400 random citizens, violating, massacring and cutting off their heads perhaps? Go read the Hamas charter, they literally call for genocide, as does anyone else who chants 'from the river to the sea'." Proportional 31,000 dead 18000 Ophans 72,000 injured 400,000 homes destroyed 1.5 million displaced and starving to the largest concentration camp on the globe, a size that dwarfs Auchwitz | |||
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"And Allah says for the Jews and Christian’s “”Kill them wherever you come upon them1 and drive them out of the places from which they have driven you out. For persecution is far worse than killing. And do not fight them at the Sacred Mosque unless they attack you there. If they do so, then fight them—that is the reward of the disbelievers””" It's great that you're going for balance and explaining why Israel is at risk from all surrounding countries, quoting the dogma at the centre of Islamic anti-Semitism. What made your first post so egregious, however, was "Thousands of years later we now see what he meant". That is offering your own approval and condoning what was said. To the extent that you arguably took a quote out of context to *literally* "demonise" Jews (it's not often one can say that). | |||
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"The cutting off of water, and utilities Why should Israel provide electricity and water to a nation that wants to destroy them? " Their lands have been taken by force Allah says “Fight against them ?if they persecute you? until there is no more persecution, and ?your? devotion will be to Allah ?alone?. If they stop ?persecuting you?, let there be no hostility except against the aggressors.” | |||
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" Proportional 31,000 dead... " You've lost credibility as soon as you mention a number. The word "proportional" in this context is simply: (1) are the objectives of the response justified, in the context of its cause? (2) do the actions of the response directly relate to its objectives? Rightly or wrongly, numbers do not figure in this sense of "proportionality". | |||
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" Allah says " And that right there is all you need to know its nonsense... "because my make belive sky wizard said so" is the stupidest of all the justifications. | |||
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"Their lands have been taken by force " Which is exactly what Muslims did in the 7th century. | |||
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"Yes the 7 October attacks are terrible but zero excuse for the latter! What would you say was a proportional response then? Finding 1400 random citizens, violating, massacring and cutting off their heads perhaps? Go read the Hamas charter, they literally call for genocide, as does anyone else who chants 'from the river to the sea'. Proportional 31,000 dead 18000 Ophans 72,000 injured 400,000 homes destroyed 1.5 million displaced and starving to the largest concentration camp on the globe, a size that dwarfs Auchwitz " You're quoting figures given to us by terrorists. Do you trust and believe in terrorists? Do you support terrorists? | |||
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"Yes the 7 October attacks are terrible but zero excuse for the latter! What would you say was a proportional response then? Finding 1400 random citizens, violating, massacring and cutting off their heads perhaps? Go read the Hamas charter, they literally call for genocide, as does anyone else who chants 'from the river to the sea'." That's right, Israel has no choice other than to mass murder kids and civilians. | |||
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"Yes the 7 October attacks are terrible but zero excuse for the latter! What would you say was a proportional response then? Finding 1400 random citizens, violating, massacring and cutting off their heads perhaps? Go read the Hamas charter, they literally call for genocide, as does anyone else who chants 'from the river to the sea'. Proportional 31,000 dead 18000 Ophans 72,000 injured 400,000 homes destroyed 1.5 million displaced and starving to the largest concentration camp on the globe, a size that dwarfs Auchwitz You're quoting figures given to us by terrorists. Do you trust and believe in terrorists? Do you support terrorists?" Figures may be wrong, possibly only a few hundred? And the 200 tonnes of food, a token amount compared to the reported 15,000 bombs and 57,000 artillery shells supplied by USA. | |||
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"Yes the 7 October attacks are terrible but zero excuse for the latter! What would you say was a proportional response then? Finding 1400 random citizens, violating, massacring and cutting off their heads perhaps? Go read the Hamas charter, they literally call for genocide, as does anyone else who chants 'from the river to the sea'. That's right, Israel has no choice other than to mass murder kids and civilians." Not when hamas uses them for shields. Fighting In someone's house puts the occupants in that house in danger. | |||
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"That's right, Israel has no choice other than to mass murder kids and civilians." They are not deliberately targeting civilians though. Hamas have built a military inside the civilian infrastructure - that is, they use human shields, and a such it is they who are causing this. Israel is (as far as I know) the only army in the world that will drop leaflets and call for the civilian population to evacuate prior to attack. We didn't do that when we carpet bombed Germany in WW2, killing half a million people. Hamas does all it can to prevent an exodus. Hamas could release its hostages, and the war would come to an end. | |||
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"But to humour you. Why should a response be 'proportional'? The very first violence in this conflict was carried out by Arabs in the 1920s. The point of war is to win. Hamas committed an act of war and needs to be defeated. Hamas could stop this all by surrendering their hostages. " If Hamas return the hostages will Israel remove their illegal settlements from the West Bank | |||
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"And the 200 tonnes of food, a token amount compared to the reported 15,000 bombs and 57,000 artillery shells supplied by USA. " Hamas have been misapropriating aid for a couple of decades now - that's how they built their tunnels. Without military backing from the West, Israel would be flattened by the 20+ Arab states that surround it. | |||
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"That's right, Israel has no choice other than to mass murder kids and civilians. They are not deliberately targeting civilians though. Hamas have built a military inside the civilian infrastructure - that is, they use human shields, and a such it is they who are causing this. Israel is (as far as I know) the only army in the world that will drop leaflets and call for the civilian population to evacuate prior to attack. We didn't do that when we carpet bombed Germany in WW2, killing half a million people. Hamas does all it can to prevent an exodus. Hamas could release its hostages, and the war would come to an end." The war will not come to an end because Hamas is committed to the extermination of all Israel. | |||
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"Yes the 7 October attacks are terrible but zero excuse for the latter! What would you say was a proportional response then? Finding 1400 random citizens, violating, massacring and cutting off their heads perhaps? Go read the Hamas charter, they literally call for genocide, as does anyone else who chants 'from the river to the sea'." I’m glad you brought up “from the river to the sea” Do you actually know who invented that phrase? The Likud party manifesto first used it in the 70’s. Do you know who the Likud party is? It’s Bibi’s political party! Any criticism of this phrase must be aimed at the Likud party, anything less is gaslighting. | |||
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"If Hamas return the hostages will Israel remove their illegal settlements from the West Bank " I think it's time for Israel to Annex the West Bank completely - Judea and Samaria are literally the Jewish homeland and they need to be done with this shit. However, I also think Gaza needs to be absorbed by Egypt - there is plenty of room in Sinai, but unfortunately Egypt doesn't want it back. | |||
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"And the 200 tonnes of food, a token amount compared to the reported 15,000 bombs and 57,000 artillery shells supplied by USA. Hamas have been misapropriating aid for a couple of decades now - that's how they built their tunnels. Without military backing from the West, Israel would be flattened by the 20+ Arab states that surround it." Absolutely it would be But even Biden now looking uneasy with the ongoing retaliatory massacre of civilians . | |||
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"I’m glad you brought up “from the river to the sea” Do you actually know who invented that phrase? The Likud party manifesto first used it in the 70’s. Do you know who the Likud party is? It’s Bibi’s political party! Any criticism of this phrase must be aimed at the Likud party, anything less is gaslighting." Yes, I am aware of this, and I am also aware of the origins of Likud. But when it comes to slogans, context and current usage are more important than history or etymology. | |||
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"But even Biden now looking uneasy with the ongoing retaliatory massacre of civilians . " Biden doesn't seem very well right now --a shame really as he's paving the way for a Trump return. | |||
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" Allah says And that right there is all you need to know its nonsense... "because my make belive sky wizard said so" is the stupidest of all the justifications." I don’t agree with anything he is saying, but ridiculing his religion is not the way to have an adult conversation either | |||
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"The cutting off of water, and utilities Why should Israel provide electricity and water to a nation that wants to destroy them? Their lands have been taken by force Allah says “Fight against them ?if they persecute you? until there is no more persecution, and ?your? devotion will be to Allah ?alone?. If they stop ?persecuting you?, let there be no hostility except against the aggressors.” " Let there be no hostility except against the aggressors seems to be a passage that was ignored in October. I don’t think anyone was being persecuted at a music festival | |||
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"Let there be no hostility except against the aggressors seems to be a passage that was ignored in October. I don’t think anyone was being persecuted at a music festival " The sad thing is, when going through the victims' homes and posessions, they found lots of posters calling for peace etc. The festival goers and kibbutz dwellers were largely left-wing, peace loving hippie types. | |||
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"Also, the PLO used the slogan 'From The River To The Sea' long before Likud used a similar phrase." I come bearing an olive branch in one hand, and the freedom fighter's gun in the other. Do not let the olive branch fall from my hand. Yasser Arafat 13 November 1974 | |||
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" Allah says And that right there is all you need to know its nonsense... "because my make belive sky wizard said so" is the stupidest of all the justifications. I don’t agree with anything he is saying, but ridiculing his religion is not the way to have an adult conversation either " All religion is ridiculous from my point of view, and I will always state that beliving that some fictional being gave you permission to wage war and kill people is something worthy of being ridiculed. | |||
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"I come bearing an olive branch in one hand, and the freedom fighter's gun in the other. Do not let the olive branch fall from my hand. Yasser Arafat 13 November 1974 " He also wanted to get rid of the Jews who were not descended directly from the 'Old Yishuv'. He later changed that to Jews prior to the First Aliyah - which would have been anyone who lived in Palestine prior to 1903. The rest of them however... | |||
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"But to humour you. Why should a response be 'proportional'? The very first violence in this conflict was carried out by Arabs in the 1920s. The point of war is to win. Hamas committed an act of war and needs to be defeated. Hamas could stop this all by surrendering their hostages. If Hamas return the hostages will Israel remove their illegal settlements from the West Bank " They are not illegal. Mrs x | |||
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"The cutting off of water, and utilities Why should Israel provide electricity and water to a nation that wants to destroy them? Their lands have been taken by force Allah says “Fight against them ?if they persecute you? until there is no more persecution, and ?your? devotion will be to Allah ?alone?. If they stop ?persecuting you?, let there be no hostility except against the aggressors.” " Their lands were not taken by force. Mrs x | |||
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"They are not illegal. Mrs x" I guess you could argue they're illegal under international law. Israel disputes this, and I tend to agree - although I do think it creates contention as the Arab inhabitants don't get the same rights as Israeli citizens as (legally) they are dealt with under military law. I also think the behaviour of some settlers can be very questionable. I honestly think it's time for Israel to annex the West Bank and East Jerusalem, and deport anyone who is either a risk to security or doesn't accept Israelis citizenship. It can't go on like this forever. | |||
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" Allah says And that right there is all you need to know its nonsense... "because my make belive sky wizard said so" is the stupidest of all the justifications. I don’t agree with anything he is saying, but ridiculing his religion is not the way to have an adult conversation either All religion is ridiculous from my point of view, and I will always state that beliving that some fictional being gave you permission to wage war and kill people is something worthy of being ridiculed." I’m an atheist, I don’t believe any holy book either, but there is still a way to go about your position respectfully | |||
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"Yes the 7 October attacks are terrible but zero excuse for the latter! What would you say was a proportional response then? Finding 1400 random citizens, violating, massacring and cutting off their heads perhaps? Go read the Hamas charter, they literally call for genocide, as does anyone else who chants 'from the river to the sea'. That's right, Israel has no choice other than to mass murder kids and civilians. Not when hamas uses them for shields. Fighting In someone's house puts the occupants in that house in danger. " Exactly, Israel bear zero responsibility for all the women and children they're massacring. They have no choice but to relentlessly bomb civilians. | |||
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"Yes the 7 October attacks are terrible but zero excuse for the latter! What would you say was a proportional response then? Finding 1400 random citizens, violating, massacring and cutting off their heads perhaps? Go read the Hamas charter, they literally call for genocide, as does anyone else who chants 'from the river to the sea'. That's right, Israel has no choice other than to mass murder kids and civilians. Not when hamas uses them for shields. Fighting In someone's house puts the occupants in that house in danger. Exactly, Israel bear zero responsibility for all the women and children they're massacring. They have no choice but to relentlessly bomb civilians." | |||
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"Yes the 7 October attacks are terrible but zero excuse for the latter! What would you say was a proportional response then? Finding 1400 random citizens, violating, massacring and cutting off their heads perhaps? Go read the Hamas charter, they literally call for genocide, as does anyone else who chants 'from the river to the sea'. That's right, Israel has no choice other than to mass murder kids and civilians. Not when hamas uses them for shields. Fighting In someone's house puts the occupants in that house in danger. Exactly, Israel bear zero responsibility for all the women and children they're massacring. They have no choice but to relentlessly bomb civilians." What would you do if someone took hostages of your family, your neighbours? What would you do to someone firing missiles at where you live? What would you do to terrorists who burnt babies alive? Nothing I suppose, let them do what they want. Mrs x | |||
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"Yes the 7 October attacks are terrible but zero excuse for the latter! What would you say was a proportional response then? Finding 1400 random citizens, violating, massacring and cutting off their heads perhaps? Go read the Hamas charter, they literally call for genocide, as does anyone else who chants 'from the river to the sea'. That's right, Israel has no choice other than to mass murder kids and civilians. Not when hamas uses them for shields. Fighting In someone's house puts the occupants in that house in danger. Exactly, Israel bear zero responsibility for all the women and children they're massacring. They have no choice but to relentlessly bomb civilians.What would you do if someone took hostages of your family, your neighbours? What would you do to someone firing missiles at where you live? What would you do to terrorists who burnt babies alive? Nothing I suppose, let them do what they want. Mrs x" Firstly. What evidence of burning babies alive . And does that mean atrocities can be committed by others like the IDF. Secondly, yes I would want those responsible to be held to account if members of my family were killed.. *but* .. those actually responsible! I wouldn't want an innocent child blown up or starved to death in the process!! Let alone thousands!! | |||
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"Yes the 7 October attacks are terrible but zero excuse for the latter! What would you say was a proportional response then? Finding 1400 random citizens, violating, massacring and cutting off their heads perhaps? Go read the Hamas charter, they literally call for genocide, as does anyone else who chants 'from the river to the sea'. That's right, Israel has no choice other than to mass murder kids and civilians. Not when hamas uses them for shields. Fighting In someone's house puts the occupants in that house in danger. Exactly, Israel bear zero responsibility for all the women and children they're massacring. They have no choice but to relentlessly bomb civilians.What would you do if someone took hostages of your family, your neighbours? What would you do to someone firing missiles at where you live? What would you do to terrorists who burnt babies alive? Nothing I suppose, let them do what they want. Mrs x" I'd massacre huge numbers of women and children obviously. | |||
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"Yes the 7 October attacks are terrible but zero excuse for the latter! What would you say was a proportional response then? Finding 1400 random citizens, violating, massacring and cutting off their heads perhaps? Go read the Hamas charter, they literally call for genocide, as does anyone else who chants 'from the river to the sea'. That's right, Israel has no choice other than to mass murder kids and civilians. Not when hamas uses them for shields. Fighting In someone's house puts the occupants in that house in danger. Exactly, Israel bear zero responsibility for all the women and children they're massacring. They have no choice but to relentlessly bomb civilians.What would you do if someone took hostages of your family, your neighbours? What would you do to someone firing missiles at where you live? What would you do to terrorists who burnt babies alive? Nothing I suppose, let them do what they want. Mrs x I'd massacre huge numbers of women and children obviously. " Yep.. and make sure they're innocent women and children too | |||
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"Yes the 7 October attacks are terrible but zero excuse for the latter! What would you say was a proportional response then? Finding 1400 random citizens, violating, massacring and cutting off their heads perhaps? Go read the Hamas charter, they literally call for genocide, as does anyone else who chants 'from the river to the sea'. That's right, Israel has no choice other than to mass murder kids and civilians. Not when hamas uses them for shields. Fighting In someone's house puts the occupants in that house in danger. Exactly, Israel bear zero responsibility for all the women and children they're massacring. They have no choice but to relentlessly bomb civilians.What would you do if someone took hostages of your family, your neighbours? What would you do to someone firing missiles at where you live? What would you do to terrorists who burnt babies alive? Nothing I suppose, let them do what they want. Mrs x Firstly. What evidence of burning babies alive . And does that mean atrocities can be committed by others like the IDF. Secondly, yes I would want those responsible to be held to account if members of my family were killed.. *but* .. those actually responsible! I wouldn't want an innocent child blown up or starved to death in the process!! Let alone thousands!! " There were pics published that shows Hamas burnt babies. They were released by the Israelis but independently confirmed. As for wanting to hold those responsible that's never going to happen there if Hamas keep using human shields, including children. So if they continue to do this then by your logic they will get away scot free with committing attrocities. How would you deal with it? Mrs x | |||
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"Yes the 7 October attacks are terrible but zero excuse for the latter! What would you say was a proportional response then? Finding 1400 random citizens, violating, massacring and cutting off their heads perhaps? Go read the Hamas charter, they literally call for genocide, as does anyone else who chants 'from the river to the sea'. That's right, Israel has no choice other than to mass murder kids and civilians. Not when hamas uses them for shields. Fighting In someone's house puts the occupants in that house in danger. Exactly, Israel bear zero responsibility for all the women and children they're massacring. They have no choice but to relentlessly bomb civilians.What would you do if someone took hostages of your family, your neighbours? What would you do to someone firing missiles at where you live? What would you do to terrorists who burnt babies alive? Nothing I suppose, let them do what they want. Mrs x I'd massacre huge numbers of women and children obviously. " it's easy saying don't do something without saying how you would deal with it Mrs x | |||
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"Thirdly, Isreal are an occupying force on land they have invaded and illegally building settlements ! So who is the aggressor here?" The Israelis withdrew from Gaza in 2005, withdrew. Mrs x | |||
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" John 8:44 I believe. You know its make belive .. Right ? Make believe or not it is what I found in the book, by John 8:44. Arron Bushell (self-Immolation)" It also says something like thou shalt not commit adultery yet here we are quoting the bible on a swingers site .. Hilarious  | |||
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"Yes the 7 October attacks are terrible but zero excuse for the latter! What would you say was a proportional response then? Finding 1400 random citizens, violating, massacring and cutting off their heads perhaps? Go read the Hamas charter, they literally call for genocide, as does anyone else who chants 'from the river to the sea'. That's right, Israel has no choice other than to mass murder kids and civilians. Not when hamas uses them for shields. Fighting In someone's house puts the occupants in that house in danger. Exactly, Israel bear zero responsibility for all the women and children they're massacring. They have no choice but to relentlessly bomb civilians.What would you do if someone took hostages of your family, your neighbours? What would you do to someone firing missiles at where you live? What would you do to terrorists who burnt babies alive? Nothing I suppose, let them do what they want. Mrs x Firstly. What evidence of burning babies alive . And does that mean atrocities can be committed by others like the IDF. Secondly, yes I would want those responsible to be held to account if members of my family were killed.. *but* .. those actually responsible! I wouldn't want an innocent child blown up or starved to death in the process!! Let alone thousands!! There were pics published that shows Hamas burnt babies. They were released by the Israelis but independently confirmed. As for wanting to hold those responsible that's never going to happen there if Hamas keep using human shields, including children. So if they continue to do this then by your logic they will get away scot free with committing attrocities. How would you deal with it? Mrs x" It would likely never have happened at all if the USA and UK weren't so beholden to Isreal for decades! Whats done is done but certainly a ceasefire immediately and an establishment of a two state solution whether Isreal likes it or not! Land taken by Isreal is handed back UN peacekeeping forces on the ground. I say that because obviously because Isreal have guaranteed the next generation of hamas has been down from isreali attrocities and vice versa. Now, the next part of this conversation will something like "rubbish" "will never happen" etc.. But the alternative is wiping out all the palisitinians which is what Isreal want to take all the land. Or a stalemate of decades of more war, and more attrocities. | |||
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"Yes the 7 October attacks are terrible but zero excuse for the latter! What would you say was a proportional response then? Finding 1400 random citizens, violating, massacring and cutting off their heads perhaps? Go read the Hamas charter, they literally call for genocide, as does anyone else who chants 'from the river to the sea'. That's right, Israel has no choice other than to mass murder kids and civilians. Not when hamas uses them for shields. Fighting In someone's house puts the occupants in that house in danger. Exactly, Israel bear zero responsibility for all the women and children they're massacring. They have no choice but to relentlessly bomb civilians.What would you do if someone took hostages of your family, your neighbours? What would you do to someone firing missiles at where you live? What would you do to terrorists who burnt babies alive? Nothing I suppose, let them do what they want. Mrs x I'd massacre huge numbers of women and children obviously. it's easy saying don't do something without saying how you would deal with it Mrs x" Okay sarcasm aside. Step 1. I would not massacre huge numbers of civilians. Step 2. I would attempt diplomatic solutions while sending in special forces to find out where the hostages are and to figure out how to get them out. Step 3. I would continue not to bomb civilians, not to turn off their water etc. Just to be clear, I would not feel good about other civilians being mass murdered as some kind of sick revenge for the first group of civilians that were mass murdered. | |||
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"Thirdly, Isreal are an occupying force on land they have invaded and illegally building settlements ! So who is the aggressor here?The Israelis withdrew from Gaza in 2005, withdrew. Mrs x" .. okaaayy!  | |||
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"Thirdly, Isreal are an occupying force on land they have invaded and illegally building settlements ! So who is the aggressor here?The Israelis withdrew from Gaza in 2005, withdrew. Mrs x .. okaaayy! "They did, that's a fact. Mrs x | |||
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"Yes the 7 October attacks are terrible but zero excuse for the latter! What would you say was a proportional response then? Finding 1400 random citizens, violating, massacring and cutting off their heads perhaps? Go read the Hamas charter, they literally call for genocide, as does anyone else who chants 'from the river to the sea'. That's right, Israel has no choice other than to mass murder kids and civilians. Not when hamas uses them for shields. Fighting In someone's house puts the occupants in that house in danger. Exactly, Israel bear zero responsibility for all the women and children they're massacring. They have no choice but to relentlessly bomb civilians.What would you do if someone took hostages of your family, your neighbours? What would you do to someone firing missiles at where you live? What would you do to terrorists who burnt babies alive? Nothing I suppose, let them do what they want. Mrs x I'd massacre huge numbers of women and children obviously. it's easy saying don't do something without saying how you would deal with it Mrs x Okay sarcasm aside. Step 1. I would not massacre huge numbers of civilians. Step 2. I would attempt diplomatic solutions while sending in special forces to find out where the hostages are and to figure out how to get them out. Step 3. I would continue not to bomb civilians, not to turn off their water etc. Just to be clear, I would not feel good about other civilians being mass murdered as some kind of sick revenge for the first group of civilians that were mass murdered. " Step 1 can easily be achieved. Israel warn Gaza prior to bombing targets, all Hamas needs to do is stop locating themselves in areas where civilians are located. They won't do this because they use this as propaganda. They are using their own population to stop reprisals for their murderous activities. Step 2. Hamas and all of the terrorists iterations before them have refused diplomacy. They refuse to negotiate whilst there is a Jewish state in the middle east. Special forces are not suitable for this. The tunnel system is larger than the London Underground and so makes this impossible. Similar to Bin Laden hiding in the caves in Afghan. Step 3 they are not bombing civilians but targeting military targets. Civilians die because Hamas hides behind them. Mrs x | |||
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"Yes the 7 October attacks are terrible but zero excuse for the latter! What would you say was a proportional response then? Finding 1400 random citizens, violating, massacring and cutting off their heads perhaps? Go read the Hamas charter, they literally call for genocide, as does anyone else who chants 'from the river to the sea'. That's right, Israel has no choice other than to mass murder kids and civilians. Not when hamas uses them for shields. Fighting In someone's house puts the occupants in that house in danger. Exactly, Israel bear zero responsibility for all the women and children they're massacring. They have no choice but to relentlessly bomb civilians.What would you do if someone took hostages of your family, your neighbours? What would you do to someone firing missiles at where you live? What would you do to terrorists who burnt babies alive? Nothing I suppose, let them do what they want. Mrs x Firstly. What evidence of burning babies alive . And does that mean atrocities can be committed by others like the IDF. Secondly, yes I would want those responsible to be held to account if members of my family were killed.. *but* .. those actually responsible! I wouldn't want an innocent child blown up or starved to death in the process!! Let alone thousands!! There were pics published that shows Hamas burnt babies. They were released by the Israelis but independently confirmed. As for wanting to hold those responsible that's never going to happen there if Hamas keep using human shields, including children. So if they continue to do this then by your logic they will get away scot free with committing attrocities. How would you deal with it? Mrs x It would likely never have happened at all if the USA and UK weren't so beholden to Isreal for decades! Whats done is done but certainly a ceasefire immediately and an establishment of a two state solution whether Isreal likes it or not! Land taken by Isreal is handed back UN peacekeeping forces on the ground. I say that because obviously because Isreal have guaranteed the next generation of hamas has been down from isreali attrocities and vice versa. Now, the next part of this conversation will something like "rubbish" "will never happen" etc.. But the alternative is wiping out all the palisitinians which is what Isreal want to take all the land. Or a stalemate of decades of more war, and more attrocities. " Israel wants a two state solution. The Palestinians have rejected 5 offers of this already. The Israelis do not want to wipe out Palestinians but rather Hamas wants to exterminate every Jew. Also what lands have Israel invaded and took from Palestinians? Mrs x | |||
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"Thirdly, Isreal are an occupying force on land they have invaded and illegally building settlements ! So who is the aggressor here?The Israelis withdrew from Gaza in 2005, withdrew. Mrs x" And have expanded their illegal settlements in the west bank since. | |||
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"Thirdly, Isreal are an occupying force on land they have invaded and illegally building settlements ! So who is the aggressor here?The Israelis withdrew from Gaza in 2005, withdrew. Mrs x And have expanded their illegal settlements in the west bank since. " They haven't, its not illegal. Mrs x | |||
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"Thirdly, Isreal are an occupying force on land they have invaded and illegally building settlements ! So who is the aggressor here?The Israelis withdrew from Gaza in 2005, withdrew. Mrs x And have expanded their illegal settlements in the west bank since. They haven't, its not illegal. Mrs x" Numerous UN resolutions and prevailing international opinion hold that Israeli settlements in the West Bank, East Jerusalem and the Golan Heights are a violation of international law, including UN Security Council resolutions in 1979, 1980, and 2016 | |||
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"Thirdly, Isreal are an occupying force on land they have invaded and illegally building settlements ! So who is the aggressor here?The Israelis withdrew from Gaza in 2005, withdrew. Mrs x And have expanded their illegal settlements in the west bank since. They haven't, its not illegal. Mrs x" GENEVA (8 March 2024) – UN Human Rights Chief Volker Türk today deplored Israel’s latest actions regarding the occupied West Bank, saying the drastic acceleration in settlement building is exacerbating long-standing patterns of oppression, violence and discrimination against Palestinians. “Reports this week that Israel plans to build a further 3,476 settler homes in Maale Adumim, Efrat and Kedar fly in the face of international law,” Türk said. | |||
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"Thirdly, Isreal are an occupying force on land they have invaded and illegally building settlements ! So who is the aggressor here?The Israelis withdrew from Gaza in 2005, withdrew. Mrs x And have expanded their illegal settlements in the west bank since. They haven't, its not illegal. Mrs x" The United States has said that new Israeli settlements in the occupied Palestinian territories are illegal, effectively reversing a policy by the administration of former President Donald Trump. US Secretary of State Antony Blinken said an announcement by Israeli Finance Minister Bezalel Smotrich that more than 3,300 new Israeli settlements are to be built in the occupied West Bank was “disappointing”. | |||
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"Will Hamas apologise for their actions on the 7 Oct, I dought it, but people want Israel to stop and apologise for their action of retaliation. "Neither will, both murderous and repressive organisations. | |||
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"Yes the 7 October attacks are terrible but zero excuse for the latter! What would you say was a proportional response then? Finding 1400 random citizens, violating, massacring and cutting off their heads perhaps? Go read the Hamas charter, they literally call for genocide, as does anyone else who chants 'from the river to the sea'. That's right, Israel has no choice other than to mass murder kids and civilians. Not when hamas uses them for shields. Fighting In someone's house puts the occupants in that house in danger. Exactly, Israel bear zero responsibility for all the women and children they're massacring. They have no choice but to relentlessly bomb civilians.What would you do if someone took hostages of your family, your neighbours? What would you do to someone firing missiles at where you live? What would you do to terrorists who burnt babies alive? Nothing I suppose, let them do what they want. Mrs x I'd massacre huge numbers of women and children obviously. it's easy saying don't do something without saying how you would deal with it Mrs x Okay sarcasm aside. Step 1. I would not massacre huge numbers of civilians. Step 2. I would attempt diplomatic solutions while sending in special forces to find out where the hostages are and to figure out how to get them out. Step 3. I would continue not to bomb civilians, not to turn off their water etc. Just to be clear, I would not feel good about other civilians being mass murdered as some kind of sick revenge for the first group of civilians that were mass murdered. Step 1 can easily be achieved. Israel warn Gaza prior to bombing targets, all Hamas needs to do is stop locating themselves in areas where civilians are located. They won't do this because they use this as propaganda. They are using their own population to stop reprisals for their murderous activities. Step 2. Hamas and all of the terrorists iterations before them have refused diplomacy. They refuse to negotiate whilst there is a Jewish state in the middle east. Special forces are not suitable for this. The tunnel system is larger than the London Underground and so makes this impossible. Similar to Bin Laden hiding in the caves in Afghan. Step 3 they are not bombing civilians but targeting military targets. Civilians die because Hamas hides behind them. Mrs x" Another problem with step 2 is holding diplomatic talks while hostages are still held. | |||
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"Thirdly, Isreal are an occupying force on land they have invaded and illegally building settlements ! So who is the aggressor here?The Israelis withdrew from Gaza in 2005, withdrew. Mrs x" Do you remember 4 Gaza’n boys who got shot to death while playing football on the beach? That was 2014. Tell me again how Israel withdrew. | |||
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"By every definition, Israel is committing war crimes. Another incorrect statement. Do you even know what "every definition" is? Adding hyperbole actually takes away from intelligent people taking you seriously. If you said "there is a possibility that Israel has committed genocidal actions in their broader war against Hamas" and went on to demonstrate that, then yes, there could be a discussion. The definition of genocide, crucially, requires an "intent to destroy, in whole or in part, a ... group" (https://www.un.org/en/genocideprevention/genocide.shtml). This means that the reason behind any killing is the eradication of a group, as opposed to any military objectives. Once there are military objectives, rather then killing solely for the sake of reduction of numbers, the crime of genocide is no longer obvious. It can still be genocide, but the UN link above explains that: "The intent is the most difficult element to determine. To constitute genocide, there must be a proven intent on the part of perpetrators to physically destroy a national, ethnical, racial or religious group. Cultural destruction does not suffice, nor does an intention to simply disperse a group." So large numbers of deaths do not, in and of themselves, constitute genocide. This is where Hamas miscalculated and gave Israel a green light to go beyond what most of the world find acceptable behaviour. As long as Hamas does not surrender themselves and the Israeli hostages, Israel can simply claim that they have military objectives. Pretty much the only way to *prove* that Israel is committing genocide is to remove those military objectives and see what they do. That means surrender and giving back hostages. Most people know Israel would stop tomorrow if that occured. And if it didn't, then there'd be a good case for genocide. Rhetoric against an enemy is common during any war. Politicians need to be careful to stay away from genocidal language. Politicians from Israel have overstepped this line. Some have been punished, some have been misinterpreted and some have simply been wrong and got away with it. This is where the ICJ had told Israel to stay on top of the language used. This does not prove intent for genocide necessarily, but it can if it is widespread enough and actions prove this to be the case. This threshold *clearly is being approached but had not been met*, as evidenced by the fairly mild warning from the ICJ. Collective punishment on this scale, against one people, is genocide. Nope. You're just making up nonsense with statements like that. Collective punishment is a totally different war crime. Again, it's not clear cut when military objectives come into play. War is a horrible thing, but deaths of innocents do not constitute war crimes in and of themselves. Over 30,000 murdered, with another 80,000 mutilated... "Murdered" is an emotionally charged word that does not apply here. There might be murders within that number, but there is little if any evidence of that. "Killed" might be correct, but murder requires intent. Face it, the use of murder is both wrong and points to a desire to emotionally manipulate your audience (or a fundamental deficiency in English language). It's misleading. Unless you're of the opinion that all war is murder, perhaps. Now, urban warfare typically kills 9 innocent civilians for each enemy combatant (https://press.un.org/en/2022/sc14904.doc.htm). Current estimates suggest Israel are killing between 2 and 4 (https://www.bbc.com/news/world-middle-east-68387864). If Israel is looking to remove Hamas, then numbers of 30k are not excessive in order to hit all of their targets. It's grisly and horrible and completely unfair on innocent babies, there is absolutely no question of that. That's war. But it's nothing new, in 2023, from 1 January until the day before 7 October, 600 Palestinians had been killed by Israeli action in Gaza. This doesn't include the West Bank statistics. The other side of that is that Israel withdrew from Gaza completely in 2005 and forcibly removed all Israeli citizens. It was FREER then the West Bank. It could carve out it's own future! If it did not, after three years, become a belligerent state against Israel in 2008, there would be none of this. Israel does not gain at all from this situation. The enclave is effectively a prison with no access by sea or air, and restricted access by land. So go figure... Ask Egypt why they also enforce their border and flood tunnels. It isn't a prison. It's a small state with tightly controlled borders. Using this kind of language is unhelpful, really. Moreover, some people from Gaza worked regularly in Israel and people from all over the world went in and out as tourists. Any restrictions were (it could be argued) for legitimate security reasons. Many Gazans left without "escaping". You'd be fine if you simply said "some Gazans feel like it's an open air prison". Of course, that doesn't sound as punchy. " Your staunch support of Israel, in the face of clear cut violations is testament to your delusional vitriol. Even it's loudest supporters The US and UK have backtracked against your claims that this is acceptable in any way, shape, or form; or a result of the statistics of war. Nice how you ignored the other statistic that 600 Palestinians were murdered in the months prior to 7/10. What do you say a proportional response by Hamas should be in light of that? 15000 Israelis? More? Nice how you ignore the hostages taken by Israel and left incarcerated without trial. How should they respond? This is ethnic cleansing. It's disgusting as is your contempt for the truth that's in front of everyone's face. | |||
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"Yes the 7 October attacks are terrible but zero excuse for the latter! What would you say was a proportional response then? Finding 1400 random citizens, violating, massacring and cutting off their heads perhaps? Go read the Hamas charter, they literally call for genocide, as does anyone else who chants 'from the river to the sea'. That's right, Israel has no choice other than to mass murder kids and civilians. Not when hamas uses them for shields. Fighting In someone's house puts the occupants in that house in danger. Exactly, Israel bear zero responsibility for all the women and children they're massacring. They have no choice but to relentlessly bomb civilians.What would you do if someone took hostages of your family, your neighbours? What would you do to someone firing missiles at where you live? What would you do to terrorists who burnt babies alive? Nothing I suppose, let them do what they want. Mrs x Firstly. What evidence of burning babies alive . And does that mean atrocities can be committed by others like the IDF. Secondly, yes I would want those responsible to be held to account if members of my family were killed.. *but* .. those actually responsible! I wouldn't want an innocent child blown up or starved to death in the process!! Let alone thousands!! There were pics published that shows Hamas burnt babies. They were released by the Israelis but independently confirmed. As for wanting to hold those responsible that's never going to happen there if Hamas keep using human shields, including children. So if they continue to do this then by your logic they will get away scot free with committing attrocities. How would you deal with it? Mrs x" Oh I forgot to ask... Does the killing of children from one group, then justify the killing of innocent people on the opposing side Mrs? I'm not an expert on international law. But I bet you that's not allowed in law! | |||
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"But it's nothing new, in 2023, from 1 January until the day before 7 October, 600 Palestinians had been killed by Israeli action in Gaza. This doesn't include the West Bank statistics. All the deaths at the hands of Israeli soldiers are listed on Wikipedia - each one has the reason stated. Almost every death came as a result of violent behaviour towards the Israeli military - whether through throwing rocks, throwing molotov cocktails, shooting, bombing or so on. When a soldier sees someone armed, they don't get time to assess whether the weapon is a rock or a bomb - they have to make a judgment call. Meanwhile, Palestinians encourage child soldiers to martyr themselves. In Gazan schools they teach children to hate Jews, they even use The Protocols of The Elders of Zion as part of their school curriculum. This is not hyperbole - Palestinian TV broadcasts are easily available to find for yourself. Palestinians have been radicalised since the 1920s by people such as Amin Al Husseini, the antisemitic Grand Mufti who spent time hanging out with Hitler during WW2." Utter BS. All the deaths at the hands of Israeli soldiers are listed on Wikipedia - each one has the reason stated. Waving a white flag classed as a reason? They even murdered their own - remember the hostages held by Hamas. Nothing you say is truthful. We saw the images. 3 Israeli hostages were gunned down while holding white flags and a message in Hebrew. Ridiculous claims by yourself. The majority of deaths of Palestinians were deliberate, targeted and unreasonable. And you wonder why a pressure cooker like that was about to burst? Israel even built a wall. Remember any other walls that were built historically? You'd probably claim it was a peace wall. Zionism literally calls for a Jewish state. That's genocide. The moment Israel was declared, 80% of the indigenous population was ousted leaving behind 20%. | |||
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"Yes the 7 October attacks are terrible but zero excuse for the latter! What would you say was a proportional response then? Finding 1400 random citizens, violating, massacring and cutting off their heads perhaps? Go read the Hamas charter, they literally call for genocide, as does anyone else who chants 'from the river to the sea'. That's right, Israel has no choice other than to mass murder kids and civilians. Not when hamas uses them for shields. Fighting In someone's house puts the occupants in that house in danger. Exactly, Israel bear zero responsibility for all the women and children they're massacring. They have no choice but to relentlessly bomb civilians.What would you do if someone took hostages of your family, your neighbours? What would you do to someone firing missiles at where you live? What would you do to terrorists who burnt babies alive? Nothing I suppose, let them do what they want. Mrs x I'd massacre huge numbers of women and children obviously. it's easy saying don't do something without saying how you would deal with it Mrs x Okay sarcasm aside. Step 1. I would not massacre huge numbers of civilians. Step 2. I would attempt diplomatic solutions while sending in special forces to find out where the hostages are and to figure out how to get them out. Step 3. I would continue not to bomb civilians, not to turn off their water etc. Just to be clear, I would not feel good about other civilians being mass murdered as some kind of sick revenge for the first group of civilians that were mass murdered. Step 1 can easily be achieved. Israel warn Gaza prior to bombing targets, all Hamas needs to do is stop locating themselves in areas where civilians are located. They won't do this because they use this as propaganda. They are using their own population to stop reprisals for their murderous activities. Step 2. Hamas and all of the terrorists iterations before them have refused diplomacy. They refuse to negotiate whilst there is a Jewish state in the middle east. Special forces are not suitable for this. The tunnel system is larger than the London Underground and so makes this impossible. Similar to Bin Laden hiding in the caves in Afghan. Step 3 they are not bombing civilians but targeting military targets. Civilians die because Hamas hides behind them. Mrs x" This is so far detached from reality, I don't know if you're mirroring my sarcastic posts or not. | |||
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"But it's nothing new, in 2023, from 1 January until the day before 7 October, 600 Palestinians had been killed by Israeli action in Gaza. This doesn't include the West Bank statistics. All the deaths at the hands of Israeli soldiers are listed on Wikipedia - each one has the reason stated. Almost every death came as a result of violent behaviour towards the Israeli military - whether through throwing rocks, throwing molotov cocktails, shooting, bombing or so on. When a soldier sees someone armed, they don't get time to assess whether the weapon is a rock or a bomb - they have to make a judgment call. Meanwhile, Palestinians encourage child soldiers to martyr themselves. In Gazan schools they teach children to hate Jews, they even use The Protocols of The Elders of Zion as part of their school curriculum. This is not hyperbole - Palestinian TV broadcasts are easily available to find for yourself. Palestinians have been radicalised since the 1920s by people such as Amin Al Husseini, the antisemitic Grand Mufti who spent time hanging out with Hitler during WW2. Utter BS. All the deaths at the hands of Israeli soldiers are listed on Wikipedia - each one has the reason stated. Waving a white flag classed as a reason? They even murdered their own - remember the hostages held by Hamas. Nothing you say is truthful. We saw the images. 3 Israeli hostages were gunned down while holding white flags and a message in Hebrew. Ridiculous claims by yourself. The majority of deaths of Palestinians were deliberate, targeted and unreasonable. And you wonder why a pressure cooker like that was about to burst? Israel even built a wall. Remember any other walls that were built historically? You'd probably claim it was a peace wall. Zionism literally calls for a Jewish state. That's genocide. The moment Israel was declared, 80% of the indigenous population was ousted leaving behind 20%." Exactly. It’s the bigger picture - Israel is defined as a Jewish state, so a majority or sizeable minority non Jewish population within its borders is a problem for it. Including Gaza and the West Bank, the majority of the population are Arab Palestinians. Israel/pro-Israel groups claim discomfort at the term River to the Sea. But Likud used the same term. There won’t be peace until Israelis and diaspora Jews accept the harm that Israel has caused. This is coming from a Jew who was raised, like many Jews I believe, hardly knowing about the Naqba. | |||
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"Thirdly, Isreal are an occupying force on land they have invaded and illegally building settlements ! So who is the aggressor here?" The mosque was built on top of the temple. There has been an unbroken Jewish presence in Israel for thousands of years. The early Zionists bought land legally. The majority of Jews in Israel today are descended from Middle Eastern Jews. It's also absolutely ridiculous to compare Jewish refugees with European colonialist settlers. | |||
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" The moment Israel was declared, 80% of the indigenous population was ousted leaving behind 20%." Encouraged to leave by surrounding Arab states, believing they could 'Send The Jews into The Sea'. It absolutely benefitted Israel, but it was not their idea. | |||
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"Thirdly, Isreal are an occupying force on land they have invaded and illegally building settlements ! So who is the aggressor here? The mosque was built on top of the temple. There has been an unbroken Jewish presence in Israel for thousands of years. The early Zionists bought land legally. The majority of Jews in Israel today are descended from Middle Eastern Jews. It's also absolutely ridiculous to compare Jewish refugees with European colonialist settlers." Wow! The problem is, your view is really common. So you’re saying that because a major mosque was built around 1,200 years in the place where the Jewish temple had once been, but destroyed by other forces, israel isn’t being aggressive in taking the land back? And because some Jews have lived there throughout, it was right to expel 800,000 in 1948? Why is it wrong to compare Zionist settlers with other European settlers? They moved into an area where dark skinned people lived and slowly took over. Weizmann was asked about the natives. He said, the British tell me there are some 100 thousand negroes, and they don’t matter. I think that was the twenties, when there were several times that. | |||
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"We don't "give" them arms in the way we might for places like the Ukrane. " We didn't give Ukraine weapons. What we did do is give quite a few tanks to Poland to replace their tanks they gave Ukraine! I know this as fact as my son in-law spent 4 months in Poland training them how to use our tanks because they suddenly had none back in 2022 | |||
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" The moment Israel was declared, 80% of the indigenous population was ousted leaving behind 20%.Encouraged to leave by surrounding Arab states, believing they could 'Send The Jews into The Sea'. It absolutely benefitted Israel, but it was not their idea." Historians dispute that. Apparently there’s no evidence at for it. But there’s copious evidence that Zionist forces, eg Begin’s Irgun, which became today’s likud, committed massacres to scare the local population away. But even were that so - let’s imagine they left their homes, and olive groves, because of this unfortunate war; that means they became refugees doesnt it? Shouldn’t they have been allowed back? | |||
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"We don't "give" them arms in the way we might for places like the Ukrane. We didn't give Ukraine weapons. What we did do is give quite a few tanks to Poland to replace their tanks they gave Ukraine! I know this as fact as my son in-law spent 4 months in Poland training them how to use our tanks because they suddenly had none back in 2022" You might want to read this from parliament https://commonslibrary.parliament.uk/research-briefings/cbp-9914/ | |||
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"Thirdly, Isreal are an occupying force on land they have invaded and illegally building settlements ! So who is the aggressor here? The mosque was built on top of the temple. There has been an unbroken Jewish presence in Israel for thousands of years. The early Zionists bought land legally. The majority of Jews in Israel today are descended from Middle Eastern Jews. It's also absolutely ridiculous to compare Jewish refugees with European colonialist settlers." The temple was destroyed several times, not even by Muslims. The fact that the western wall continued to exist and a decree by the Muslim ruling Ottomans to allow Jewish reverence and worship to continue there by "people of the three books" is testament to the non antisemitic nature of the people. This whole debacle became an issue the moment 80% of the indigenous people were shoved out. You don't, you can't secure peaceful purchase of 80% of the land. That's ridiculous. | |||
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"Ok, let’s acknowledge the hostages.. Who thinks it’s a good idea to respond to an active hostage situation with tanks and battle helicopters firing missiles? Nobody right? This is what happened Oct 7th and has been continuing since. And this is supposed to be the most technically advanced military in the world, capable of precision surgical offences, backed up by the planets best intelligence agencies." Israel is emphatically *not* treating this like a hostage situation. They are treating it as a war. This was the miscalculation by Hamas. Hamas expected a hostage situation, where Israel would negotiate, tread lightly, not rock the boat, trade huge numbers of prisoners for hostages - they were boasting about this hours after the attack: "we have enough hostages to get all prisoners released!". Israel flipped the script and are taking the war approach: surrender yourselves and the hostages, or we will slowly, but surely, eradicate you. At all costs. Including the hostages and your civilians where either get in the way. | |||
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" Your staunch support of Israel, in the face of clear cut violations is testament to your delusional vitriol. " Well, hello. How do you define "delusional vitriol", and how does it apply here? Do facts and reasoning (both are, of course, subject to scrutiny and debate) that you don't like, somehow fit that description? Or are you just preparing a word salad? (hint: it needs more pepper) " Even it's loudest supporters The US and UK have backtracked against your claims that this is acceptable in any way, shape, or form; or a result of the statistics of war. " Who said acceptable? Acceptable is a subjective term. Unlike genocide, which has a definition under international law. The threshold has not been obviously met according to the ICJ. It might be, but for lay people to presume genocide as if it is fact is... Pretty stupid. And "backtracked against your claims"? It's amazing that world governments are logging into fabswingers.com and reading posts from this account, only to later backtrack against them. Who knew?! " Nice how you ignored the other statistic that 600 Palestinians were murdered in the months prior to 7/10. What do you say a proportional response by Hamas should be in light of that? 15000 Israelis? More? Nice how you ignore the hostages taken by Israel and left incarcerated without trial. How should they respond? " Nice how you ignore any reasoned response, too. It's a pleasure to make your acquaintance. As to your direct question about a proportional response from Hamas... "According to the ICTY, the principle of proportionality means that the incidental and involuntary harm caused to the civilian population during a military attack must not be excessive in relation to the direct military advantage gained." (https://guide-humanitarian-law.org/content/article/3/proportionality/) In short, killing and kid-napping a bunch of civilians at a music festival is not a proportional response from Hamas. In contrast, firing a missile at a residential building that definitely had a missile launcher on the roof that had recently fired and may fire again, is proportional. It's not about numbers* (*necessarily, but it could be). Really. Sad, perhaps, but that's the fact. Crucially, it means that taking an overall number is meaningless. Rather, each individual death is weighted in the context of the military action in which it occurred. If Hamas were not hiding behind civilians, Israel would be clearly in the wrong. Given the operational realities, Israel has a pretty reasonable case. Is it possible that there are illegal and immoral (and disproportionate) incidents? Of course it's possible. In fact, it's almost inevitable that there will be at least some isolated incidents in an action on this scale. Is it clear that Israel is generally disproportionate? No. Emphatically no. Could they do a better job? Very possibly. " This is ethnic cleansing. " No, it's not. It might be deplorable, avoidable, excessive, abhorrent, unconscionable, immoral - all of those are arguable. If you want to claim that it's ethic cleansing, then you really need to do that by combining the facts with the definition of ethnic cleansing. You have not demonstrated this. " It's disgusting as is your contempt for the truth that's in front of everyone's face." What truth, and what contempt? You're starting to babble here. Be clear. You state at the end of your profile "I value people who can hold some level of conversation". Demonstrate that you can, too. | |||
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" How do you define "delusional vitriol", and how does it apply here? Do facts and reasoning (both are, of course, subject to scrutiny and debate) that you don't like, somehow fit that description? Or are you just preparing a word salad? (hint: it needs more pepper)" Here's delusional: Israel responding with definite intent by leveling entire cities because a militant might be there. "Buildings definitely had missile launchers on top." Would be a thing if Israel demonstrated that they did. Which would be incredibly simple. Best they could do is to go in after bombardment and levelling, show a calendar and claim the days of the week were terrorists. Best they could do was kill 3 of their own, when they were waving white flags. "Numbers aren't a thing..." "It Might be..." "Possibly..." "Perhaps sad.." "It could be deplorable..." "It's possible..." "Demonstrate that .." It's bizarre. I picture you now, with a gleeful smirk on your face with the thoughts that you'd done a good job arguing for arguments sake. Everything on the other side "might be deplorable". Everything on the other side "definitely isn't." You've done everything but demonstrate any clarity of thought. Somehow Israel definitely responds to threats. Somehow the numbers aren't a thing, even though they are.
Somehow what's going on MIGHT BE a problem in your eyes. Everything POSSIBLY is... But heck, at least I'm your eyes, it's DEFINITELY not the G word.
Somehow not letting in aid, and cutting off water supplies is not an example of ethnic cleansing.
Will, duh. I guess you're right. The only example of ethnic cleansing is, umm... Ethnic cleansing.
You're an oddball at best and you seem to enjoy a keyboard reach around laced with pepper...  | |||
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" How do you define "delusional vitriol", and how does it apply here? Do facts and reasoning (both are, of course, subject to scrutiny and debate) that you don't like, somehow fit that description? Or are you just preparing a word salad? (hint: it needs more pepper) Here's delusional: Israel responding with definite intent by leveling entire cities because a militant might be there. "Buildings definitely had missile launchers on top." Would be a thing if Israel demonstrated that they did. Which would be incredibly simple. Best they could do is to go in after bombardment and levelling, show a calendar and claim the days of the week were terrorists. Best they could do was kill 3 of their own, when they were waving white flags. "Numbers aren't a thing..." "It Might be..." "Possibly..." "Perhaps sad.." "It could be deplorable..." "It's possible..." "Demonstrate that .." It's bizarre. I picture you now, with a gleeful smirk on your face with the thoughts that you'd done a good job arguing for arguments sake. Everything on the other side "might be deplorable". Everything on the other side "definitely isn't." You've done everything but demonstrate any clarity of thought. Somehow Israel definitely responds to threats. Somehow the numbers aren't a thing, even though they are.
Somehow what's going on MIGHT BE a problem in your eyes. Everything POSSIBLY is... But heck, at least I'm your eyes, it's DEFINITELY not the G word.
Somehow not letting in aid, and cutting off water supplies is not an example of ethnic cleansing.
Will, duh. I guess you're right. The only example of ethnic cleansing is, umm... Ethnic cleansing.
You're an oddball at best and you seem to enjoy a keyboard reach around laced with pepper... "Delusional vitriol. Thanks for clearing that up with a brilliant example. 10/10 Well done. | |||
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" Rafah battle plans approved, Netanyahu has said that civilians would be able to leave before troops enter Rafah. All 1,400,000 of them, where do they go next, are they allowed to take their tents " It would appear that Egypt has made some preparations for this: https://www.aljazeera.com/news/2024/2/16/satellite-photos-show-egypt-building-gaza-buffer-zone-as-rafah-push-looms | |||
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" Rafah battle plans approved, Netanyahu has said that civilians would be able to leave before troops enter Rafah. All 1,400,000 of them, where do they go next, are they allowed to take their tents It would appear that Egypt has made some preparations for this: https://www.aljazeera.com/news/2024/2/16/satellite-photos-show-egypt-building-gaza-buffer-zone-as-rafah-push-looms " This will likely be a Turkey shoot when it happens. 30,000 fighters hiding amongst 1,400,000 So far Palestinian deaths and casualties are reported at 100,000. 100 for each Israeli death. | |||
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" So far Palestinian deaths and casualties are reported at 100,000. 100 for each Israeli death. " It makes you wonder what Hamas were thinking when they attacked. It will make Hezbollah pause for thought before acting fully on their rhetoric. People talk about "creating a new generation of terrorists". Well, Hamas had just created a new mindset in Israel. A response like this would never have had public support (especially from the Palestinian Israelis fighting in Gaza with the IDF now) before October 7. | |||
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"The temple was destroyed several times, not even by Muslims. The fact that the western wall continued to exist and a decree by the Muslim ruling Ottomans to allow Jewish reverence and worship to continue there by "people of the three books" is testament to the non antisemitic nature of the people. This whole debacle became an issue the moment 80% of the indigenous people were shoved out. You don't, you can't secure peaceful purchase of 80% of the land. That's ridiculous." Firstly, the Ottomans only 'allowed' Jewish reverence under the condition of them being 'dhimmi' and subject to may repressive rules, such as the need to pay the Jizya tax - a kind of medieval protection racketing. People of the book (Jews and Christians) are second class citizens under Islamic law, and this is why the idea of Jews being in control anywhere is abhorrent to many Muslims. 80% of the population were not shoved out, and many of them were not indigenous, whatever that means really in terms of heritage - considering many were descended from Egyptians who went there to escape conscription in the 1830s. Anyway, many left of their own volition, encouraged to do so by neighbouring Arab states, believing they would secure a fast victory (send the Jews into the sea) and allow a speedy return. There were some expulsions and deaths, many towards those involved in armed resistence - bearing in mind there had been a civil war the year before and there were still plenty of Arab militants. Yes, it did serve Israel, but there was no overall policy of expulsion in place during this time. | |||
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"Historians dispute that. Apparently there’s no evidence at for it. But there’s copious evidence that Zionist forces, eg Begin’s Irgun, which became today’s likud, committed massacres to scare the local population away. But even were that so - let’s imagine they left their homes, and olive groves, because of this unfortunate war; that means they became refugees doesnt it? Shouldn’t they have been allowed back?" Irgun was banned after the creation of Israel, and I agree that allowing them to politicise post-ban was a contentious idea. They are not Likud, but Likud did absorb their members. No other people keep refugee status that is passed down through generations. For example, the UK has descendents of refugees from WW2 Europe, but they are not considered refugees now because they become absorbed into the local population. The several hundred thousand Middle Eastern Jews who were expelled or fled from Arab countries are also no longer considered refugees, and they now make up the largest proportion of Israelis. Sadly, the refugee status of the Palestinian people is because they are being used as political pawns by countries such as Iran. | |||
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"Wow! The problem is, your view is really common. " It is common because it is correct. "So you’re saying that because a major mosque was built around 1,200 years in the place where the Jewish temple had once been, but destroyed by other forces, israel isn’t being aggressive in taking the land back?" It is only part of the story - on its own it would not be enough, so we need to factor in the Muslim repression of Jews (dhimmi status), the European pogroms, the legal land purchases during the early Aliyahs and creation of Israel by the League of Nations, followed by the United Nations. "And because some Jews have lived there throughout, it was right to expel 800,000 in 1948?" Most were not expelled, most left because of Arab encouragement - we've been over that. "Why is it wrong to compare Zionist settlers with other European settlers?" Because they were refugees and not ethnically the same as other Europeans. "They moved into an area where dark skinned people lived and slowly took over. " So, it's all about skin colour? That makes it sound like you're being racist. "Weizmann was asked about the natives. He said, the British tell me there are some 100 thousand negroes, and they don’t matter. I think that was the twenties, when there were several times that. " I can't find the quote, but doesn't matter what the opinion of The British was - the Zionists also had to fight against British imperialism because of their limits of immigration - and fighting the British was not exactly the behaviour of colonialist settlers, because they were not colonialist settlers. | |||
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" So far Palestinian deaths and casualties are reported at 100,000. 100 for each Israeli death. It makes you wonder what Hamas were thinking when they attacked. It will make Hezbollah pause for thought before acting fully on their rhetoric. People talk about "creating a new generation of terrorists". Well, Hamas had just created a new mindset in Israel. A response like this would never have had public support (especially from the Palestinian Israelis fighting in Gaza with the IDF now) before October 7." What are Palestinian Israelis? We know what Hamas were thinking, there were 600 Palestinians murdered at the hands of Israelis in 2023 from January to October. True, there's a new mindset unleashed and there's very few who are now on the side of Israel defending the indefensible. The propaganda that claims black is white, and that Israel does no wrong no longer works - everyone now talks of unilaterally recognising a 2 state solution which never used to happen. 
Rather pyrrhic. | |||
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"The temple was destroyed several times, not even by Muslims. The fact that the western wall continued to exist and a decree by the Muslim ruling Ottomans to allow Jewish reverence and worship to continue there by "people of the three books" is testament to the non antisemitic nature of the people. This whole debacle became an issue the moment 80% of the indigenous people were shoved out. You don't, you can't secure peaceful purchase of 80% of the land. That's ridiculous. Firstly, the Ottomans only 'allowed' Jewish reverence under the condition of them being 'dhimmi' and subject to may repressive rules, such as the need to pay the Jizya tax - a kind of medieval protection racketing. People of the book (Jews and Christians) are second class citizens under Islamic law, and this is why the idea of Jews being in control anywhere is abhorrent to many Muslims. 80% of the population were not shoved out, and many of them were not indigenous, whatever that means really in terms of heritage - considering many were descended from Egyptians who went there to escape conscription in the 1830s. Anyway, many left of their own volition, encouraged to do so by neighbouring Arab states, believing they would secure a fast victory (send the Jews into the sea) and allow a speedy return. There were some expulsions and deaths, many towards those involved in armed resistence - bearing in mind there had been a civil war the year before and there were still plenty of Arab militants. Yes, it did serve Israel, but there was no overall policy of expulsion in place during this time." In which alternate universe are you living where people leave their homes willingly, or are persuaded by their neighbours to leave, after a mass immigration of another, whose sole ideology is the creation of a state where you're not supposed to exist because you're not their race? And the idea of paying taxes, dude, Muslims also pay taxes. The tax status is called something else because it's applied differently. The word "dhimmi" literally means "protected person". Protected to practice their religion, protected from the front lines. | |||
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"So far Palestinian deaths and casualties are reported at 100,000." It's impossible to accurately report war casualties until a war is over. Most of the current numbers are based on disputed information coming from The Hamas Health Authority. So, if you unquestionably support those statistics, then you are, at least indirectly, giving support to Hamas. | |||
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"You cannot distinguish between a civilian and a Hamas fighter because hamas wear civilian clothes and not combats." That's right, bomb them all, they could be disgusted as kids too. | |||
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"In which alternate universe are you living where people leave their homes willingly, or are persuaded by their neighbours to leave, after a mass immigration of another, whose sole ideology is the creation of a state where you're not supposed to exist because you're not their race?" It happened, it's recorded history - the surrounding Arab states attacked Israel within days of its creation, and suggested inhabitants evacuate expecting a speedy victory. Meanwhile, 20% of the Israeli population are not Jewish, thus demonstrating your last point is nonsense. Meanwhile, the 20+ other countries in the Middle East have way more restrictions on ethnicity, with their Jewish and Christian populations almost non-existent nowadays. "And the idea of paying taxes, dude, Muslims also pay taxes. The tax status is called something else because it's applied differently. The word "dhimmi" literally means "protected person". Protected to practice their religion, protected from the front lines." Singling people out for a special - and higher - rate of tax, because of their ethnicity, is prejudice. Other higher taxes, applied only to non-Muslims, included the ispençe and the haraç (land taxes), and the rav akçesi (rabbi tax) Throughout the Islamic world, there have been countless oppressions, expulsions and massacres of Jewish people going back through various caliphates. A handful of statistics from The Ottoman Empire: 1828: Massacre of Jews in Baghdad 1864: Around 500 Jews were killed in Marrakech and Fezin Morocco. 1867: Massacre of Jews in Barfurush 1869: 18 Jews killed in Tunis 1875: 20 Jews were killed in Demnat. 1872: The Orphans' Decree, requiring orphans of Jewish parents to be raised as Muslims I could find countless numbers of these events, and while some Jews did flourish in some parts of the Caliphate, what we now call antisemitism has been as rife in the Islamic world as it was in Europe. | |||
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"You cannot distinguish between a civilian and a Hamas fighter because hamas wear civilian clothes and not combats. That's right, bomb them all, they could be disgusted as kids too." They could be, who knows when hamas wear civies. An Israeli soilder is easy to spot in Gaza they wear combats. | |||
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"In which alternate universe are you living where people leave their homes willingly, or are persuaded by their neighbours to leave, after a mass immigration of another, whose sole ideology is the creation of a state where you're not supposed to exist because you're not their race? It happened, it's recorded history - the surrounding Arab states attacked Israel within days of its creation, and suggested inhabitants evacuate expecting a speedy victory. Meanwhile, 20% of the Israeli population are not Jewish, thus demonstrating your last point is nonsense. Meanwhile, the 20+ other countries in the Middle East have way more restrictions on ethnicity, with their Jewish and Christian populations almost non-existent nowadays. And the idea of paying taxes, dude, Muslims also pay taxes. The tax status is called something else because it's applied differently. The word "dhimmi" literally means "protected person". Protected to practice their religion, protected from the front lines. Singling people out for a special - and higher - rate of tax, because of their ethnicity, is prejudice. Other higher taxes, applied only to non-Muslims, included the ispençe and the haraç (land taxes), and the rav akçesi (rabbi tax) Throughout the Islamic world, there have been countless oppressions, expulsions and massacres of Jewish people going back through various caliphates. A handful of statistics from The Ottoman Empire: 1828: Massacre of Jews in Baghdad 1864: Around 500 Jews were killed in Marrakech and Fezin Morocco. 1867: Massacre of Jews in Barfurush 1869: 18 Jews killed in Tunis 1875: 20 Jews were killed in Demnat. 1872: The Orphans' Decree, requiring orphans of Jewish parents to be raised as Muslims I could find countless numbers of these events, and while some Jews did flourish in some parts of the Caliphate, what we now call antisemitism has been as rife in the Islamic world as it was in Europe." This. also there a Muslims in the knesset, not one Israeli in hamas. | |||
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"You cannot distinguish between a civilian and a Hamas fighter because hamas wear civilian clothes and not combats." They also use civilian buildings to launch attacks. We had to deal with this though both Iraq and afganistan. Its a fairly standard tactic in the region. The homeowners either comply and get destroyed or don't comply and get executed. | |||
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"You cannot distinguish between a civilian and a Hamas fighter because hamas wear civilian clothes and not combats. They also use civilian buildings to launch attacks. We had to deal with this though both Iraq and afganistan. Its a fairly standard tactic in the region. The homeowners either comply and get destroyed or don't comply and get executed. " Was that when you found the WMDs that justified your invasion? And the fairly standard tactic of destroying homeowners properties and executing them? | |||
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"In which alternate universe are you living where people leave their homes willingly, or are persuaded by their neighbours to leave, after a mass immigration of another, whose sole ideology is the creation of a state where you're not supposed to exist because you're not their race? It happened, it's recorded history - the surrounding Arab states attacked Israel within days of its creation, and suggested inhabitants evacuate expecting a speedy victory. Meanwhile, 20% of the Israeli population are not Jewish, thus demonstrating your last point is nonsense. Meanwhile, the 20+ other countries in the Middle East have way more restrictions on ethnicity, with their Jewish and Christian populations almost non-existent nowadays. And the idea of paying taxes, dude, Muslims also pay taxes. The tax status is called something else because it's applied differently. The word "dhimmi" literally means "protected person". Protected to practice their religion, protected from the front lines. Singling people out for a special - and higher - rate of tax, because of their ethnicity, is prejudice. Other higher taxes, applied only to non-Muslims, included the ispençe and the haraç (land taxes), and the rav akçesi (rabbi tax) Throughout the Islamic world, there have been countless oppressions, expulsions and massacres of Jewish people going back through various caliphates. A handful of statistics from The Ottoman Empire: 1828: Massacre of Jews in Baghdad 1864: Around 500 Jews were killed in Marrakech and Fezin Morocco. 1867: Massacre of Jews in Barfurush 1869: 18 Jews killed in Tunis 1875: 20 Jews were killed in Demnat. 1872: The Orphans' Decree, requiring orphans of Jewish parents to be raised as Muslims I could find countless numbers of these events, and while some Jews did flourish in some parts of the Caliphate, what we now call antisemitism has been as rife in the Islamic world as it was in Europe." But the Naqba was before the official creation. The most famous massacre was Deir Yasmin on 9 April 1948, perpetrated by the Irgun, with Menachem Begin their leader - and he was to become the first Likud. Prime Minister. This was done to force Palestinians out of the land, as it wasn’t consistent with the existence of a Jewish state. I was raised thinking the Arab states attacked first, and if any Palestinians fled at that time, we’ll that was just unfortunate. A little reading shows that not the case. Studies show there is no evidence of Arab states inviting Palestinians to leave their homes. But even if it did happen, what’s the relevance? It implies that Palestinians willingly gave over their land to Israel in 1948, and should now accept that poor decision? Calling that voluntary doesn’t really tie in with human nature. As to antisemistim in Muslim areas through the ages - I’m sure there was some. My understanding is that it varied, as one would expect, but was nowhere near like in Christian Europe. But again - what does that mean? Because such places mistreated Jews, Jews were justified in leaving worse antisemitism in Europe and expelling the locals? (Though I accept you don’t accept they were expelled.) As to the Weizmann quote - it’s here (and many other places): https://badgerherald.com/9730/opinion/blaming-the-victims/ In a similar vein, Herzl wrote of spiriting the penniless locals across the border. | |||
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"You cannot distinguish between a civilian and a Hamas fighter because hamas wear civilian clothes and not combats. They also use civilian buildings to launch attacks. We had to deal with this though both Iraq and afganistan. Its a fairly standard tactic in the region. The homeowners either comply and get destroyed or don't comply and get executed. Was that when you found the WMDs that justified your invasion? And the fairly standard tactic of destroying homeowners properties and executing them? "The reasons for Iraq don't change the tactics that were used there. Whataboutism does not change that. | |||
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"The most famous massacre was Deir Yasmin on 9 April 1948, perpetrated by the Irgun, with Menachem Begin their leader. " Irgun committed a crime, no dispute there and it was condemned by The Haganah and pretty much everyone else - but the inhabitants of Deir Yassin had been harbouring members of The Arab Liberation Army, who had been attacking Jews on the road to Jerusalem. | |||
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"The most famous massacre was Deir Yasmin on 9 April 1948, perpetrated by the Irgun, with Menachem Begin their leader. Irgun committed a crime, no dispute there and it was condemned by The Haganah and pretty much everyone else - but the inhabitants of Deir Yassin had been harbouring members of The Arab Liberation Army, who had been attacking Jews on the road to Jerusalem." You seem both to be condemning and justifying the massacre at the same time. There seems to be mixed evidence as to the haganah’s involvement. But it certainly didn’t spell the end of its leaders’ political careers. And you’ve admitted that Israel benefited from the fleeing of Palestinians following such massacres. | |||
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" And you’ve admitted that Israel benefited from the fleeing of Palestinians following such massacres. " An estimated 800 civilians died in massacres (and Jews were also massacred) but Israel gained advantage from the entire displacement because there was a civil war going on and they needed to push back against their enemies. Muslims have over 20 States for their ethnicity, Jews have one and it is surrounded on all sides by enemy forces. It is the only place Jews consider a homeland and as such, it was completely valid for Britain to designate this part of their land for them. | |||
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" And you’ve admitted that Israel benefited from the fleeing of Palestinians following such massacres. An estimated 800 civilians died in massacres (and Jews were also massacred) but Israel gained advantage from the entire displacement because there was a civil war going on and they needed to push back against their enemies. Muslims have over 20 States for their ethnicity, Jews have one and it is surrounded on all sides by enemy forces. It is the only place Jews consider a homeland and as such, it was completely valid for Britain to designate this part of their land for them. " Imagine if romanis or Sikhs suddenly decided they need a homeland and chose London. Is Londoners might not be happy, but they’d say - look, you ungrateful sods, you’ve got the rest of the UK. Or ethnically, you’re pretty much European. European Jews moving into an area where 1m people lived and settling there sounds pretty colonial settler to me. Arguably, Arabs aren’t even one ethnicity. Genetically, Moroccans aren’t very similar to Arabs further west, as they descend from berbers. I think it’s a red herring to focus on Palestinians being Arab. They lived there. They were forced to move. Their society was destroyed. And their very existence denied by saying they’re just Arabs. | |||
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" And you’ve admitted that Israel benefited from the fleeing of Palestinians following such massacres. An estimated 800 civilians died in massacres (and Jews were also massacred) but Israel gained advantage from the entire displacement because there was a civil war going on and they needed to push back against their enemies. Muslims have over 20 States for their ethnicity, Jews have one and it is surrounded on all sides by enemy forces. It is the only place Jews consider a homeland and as such, it was completely valid for Britain to designate this part of their land for them. " This is all rubbish! | |||
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" And you’ve admitted that Israel benefited from the fleeing of Palestinians following such massacres. An estimated 800 civilians died in massacres (and Jews were also massacred) but Israel gained advantage from the entire displacement because there was a civil war going on and they needed to push back against their enemies. Muslims have over 20 States for their ethnicity, Jews have one and it is surrounded on all sides by enemy forces. It is the only place Jews consider a homeland and as such, it was completely valid for Britain to designate this part of their land for them. " Are you seriously trying to tell me you know more than this orthodox Jew!? Seriously? https://youtu.be/_FNtMV2i8-8?si=tZl7mRX9KYWa0JMS | |||
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" And you’ve admitted that Israel benefited from the fleeing of Palestinians following such massacres. An estimated 800 civilians died in massacres (and Jews were also massacred) but Israel gained advantage from the entire displacement because there was a civil war going on and they needed to push back against their enemies. Muslims have over 20 States for their ethnicity, Jews have one and it is surrounded on all sides by enemy forces. It is the only place Jews consider a homeland and as such, it was completely valid for Britain to designate this part of their land for them. Are you seriously trying to tell me you know more than this orthodox Jew!? Seriously? https://youtu.be/_FNtMV2i8-8?si=tZl7mRX9KYWa0JMS " This Rabbi speaks for a small, fringe group of Haredi Jews. His views are so controversial that he has been censured by the Ashkenazi Chief Rabbi of Israel and was urged to be shunned by the Satmar Hasidic as well. He does not speak for the majority of Jews. Mrs x | |||
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"Imagine if romanis or Sikhs suddenly decided they need a homeland and chose London. Is Londoners might not be happy, but they’d say - look, you ungrateful sods, you’ve got the rest of the UK. Or ethnically, you’re pretty much European. " Firstly the Jews didn't 'suddenly' decide - the movement into Palestine was based on persecution that forced them to look towards there ancestral homeland. Secondly, Sikhs and Romanis do not have a historical link to the British Isles. Now, if all the Americans decided they wanted to return to Europe, that would be a better analogy -- but, they have America and they seem very happy with that homeland. Plus London has several million people, it's not logistically suitable, whereas there was plenty of land in Palestine (which initially also included Jordan). But Jews had no other homeland - they weren't accepted by Europeans, and they had a heap of trouble throughout the ages in the Middle East. So, where else were they meant to go? "European Jews moving into an area where 1m people lived and settling there sounds pretty colonial settler to me. " The population was not 1 million, it was half that - sparcely spread out. Plus, they didn't just all up-sticks and head there at once - initially land was bought legally, irrigated and built upon, and even employed local labour. There is a historical link to the region and Jews have lived there continuously for pretty much the entirety of their existence. Hence Judea being the origin of the word Jew - before that they were called Israelites. Even the Jewish calendar is linked to the seasonal changes in Jerusalem. "Arguably, Arabs aren’t even one ethnicity. Genetically, Moroccans aren’t very similar to Arabs further west, as they descend from berbers. I think it’s a red herring to focus on Palestinians being Arab. They lived there. They were forced to move. Their society was destroyed. And their very existence denied by saying they’re just Arabs. " I never mentioned Morrocans, although the religion is the common ground. The people in Palestine also consisted of immigrants who had moved from Egypt to escape conscription in the 1830s. Islam was spread by the sword, and either expelled or killed people who failed to convert - if it wasn't for the Muslims, crusaders, Romans etc. the Jewish population of Eretz Israel would have been way higher - they were never voluntary migrants. This means that many of the Palestinians descended from Jews and Christians who were forced to convert - and that makes it all the sadder. There is a proven DNA link between many of the Palestinian Arabs and the Ashkenazi Jews who fled into Europe -- they can both be traced back as far as ancient Canaan. If they focused more on their similarities, there could be potential for a breakthrough. | |||
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" And you’ve admitted that Israel benefited from the fleeing of Palestinians following such massacres. An estimated 800 civilians died in massacres (and Jews were also massacred) but Israel gained advantage from the entire displacement because there was a civil war going on and they needed to push back against their enemies. Muslims have over 20 States for their ethnicity, Jews have one and it is surrounded on all sides by enemy forces. It is the only place Jews consider a homeland and as such, it was completely valid for Britain to designate this part of their land for them. Are you seriously trying to tell me you know more than this orthodox Jew!? Seriously? https://youtu.be/_FNtMV2i8-8?si=tZl7mRX9KYWa0JMS This Rabbi speaks for a small, fringe group of Haredi Jews. His views are so controversial that he has been censured by the Ashkenazi Chief Rabbi of Israel and was urged to be shunned by the Satmar Hasidic as well. He does not speak for the majority of Jews. Mrs x" Not sure about the approach of finding a religious-looking guy and saying he obviously knows Judaism - there's an infinite number of Judaisms. But, despite his old-fashioned garb, on this issue he speaks to me better than the modern-looking rabbi at the synagogue I occasionally attend, with a moral and historically sensible stance. So it's a shame he doesn't speak for the majority of Jews. If he did, we'd have a chance at peace He doesn't want a Jewish country, at least not until after the messiah, which is always to-come, in the future. A country defined as Jewish necessarily excludes those non-Jews who were living there. If it was redefined as a land for all who live there, Jewish, Palestinian and others, we may all be able to live there peacefully. It's a nice vision, at least. | |||
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"This is all rubbish!" It isn't though. Britain defeated the Ottoman Empire, and after WW1, the entire region was given over to Britain and France to be managed by the League of Nations. That's what happens when wars ended a century ago - borders change and new borders are formed. It happens all around the world. Part of the Mandate for Palestine was on condition of setting up a homeland for Jews. Nobody complained when, in 1922, Churchill broke off a huge chunk of Palestine, named it Transjordan (now Jordan) and handed it over to a Hashemite Saudi. Transjordan was to be an Arab country, and Jews were banned from settling there, while Palestine was to be the homeland for Jews. Effectively this means a two-state partition was already in place, before the notioriously antisemitic, Haj Amin Al Husseini started getting all uppity and inciting people to violence. | |||
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"This Rabbi speaks for a small, fringe group of Haredi Jews. His views are so controversial that he has been censured by the Ashkenazi Chief Rabbi of Israel and was urged to be shunned by the Satmar Hasidic as well. He does not speak for the majority of Jews." Yup, Neturei Karta - they've even been named by the Anti Defamation League as problematic. Like, attending conferences on Holocaust Denial etc. Even other Orthodox Jews consider them fringe lunatics. The issue is, they believe the Promised Land will include other parts of the Levant, and will be delivered by a Messiah - they seem to be a bit selfishly motivated in their objections to Zionism. They make as much sense as Queers for Palestine. Douglas Murray calls them 'Jews for Suicide'.  | |||
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"Imagine if romanis or Sikhs suddenly decided they need a homeland and chose London. Is Londoners might not be happy, but they’d say - look, you ungrateful sods, you’ve got the rest of the UK. Or ethnically, you’re pretty much European. Firstly the Jews didn't 'suddenly' decide - the movement into Palestine was based on persecution that forced them to look towards there ancestral homeland. Secondly, Sikhs and Romanis do not have a historical link to the British Isles. Now, if all the Americans decided they wanted to return to Europe, that would be a better analogy -- but, they have America and they seem very happy with that homeland. Plus London has several million people, it's not logistically suitable, whereas there was plenty of land in Palestine (which initially also included Jordan). But Jews had no other homeland - they weren't accepted by Europeans, and they had a heap of trouble throughout the ages in the Middle East. So, where else were they meant to go? European Jews moving into an area where 1m people lived and settling there sounds pretty colonial settler to me. The population was not 1 million, it was half that - sparcely spread out. Plus, they didn't just all up-sticks and head there at once - initially land was bought legally, irrigated and built upon, and even employed local labour. There is a historical link to the region and Jews have lived there continuously for pretty much the entirety of their existence. Hence Judea being the origin of the word Jew - before that they were called Israelites. Even the Jewish calendar is linked to the seasonal changes in Jerusalem. Arguably, Arabs aren’t even one ethnicity. Genetically, Moroccans aren’t very similar to Arabs further west, as they descend from berbers. I think it’s a red herring to focus on Palestinians being Arab. They lived there. They were forced to move. Their society was destroyed. And their very existence denied by saying they’re just Arabs. I never mentioned Morrocans, although the religion is the common ground. The people in Palestine also consisted of immigrants who had moved from Egypt to escape conscription in the 1830s. Islam was spread by the sword, and either expelled or killed people who failed to convert - if it wasn't for the Muslims, crusaders, Romans etc. the Jewish population of Eretz Israel would have been way higher - they were never voluntary migrants. This means that many of the Palestinians descended from Jews and Christians who were forced to convert - and that makes it all the sadder. There is a proven DNA link between many of the Palestinian Arabs and the Ashkenazi Jews who fled into Europe -- they can both be traced back as far as ancient Canaan. If they focused more on their similarities, there could be potential for a breakthrough. " You make some good points. But imagining there were a group of ancient Britons who had left 2,000 years ago and then evolved in lots of different ways as the world also changed, and then demanded to move back to London, that would be problematic. Could European Jews have moved peacefully to Israel in the late nineteenth and early twentieth century, and forged a bi/multi-national state in cooperation with the locals? We'll never know. The Brit Olam movement tried that, but were seen as a fringe movement with no grasp on actual reality, whilst Weizmann spoke of the locals being of no importance, and Herzl had spoken of spiriting the locals across the border. If Israelis on mass accepted the wrongs done in the name of Zionism, and tried to address it, hopefully moving to a binational state and if not to two states, there could be peace, perhaps. | |||
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