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European Armed Alliance
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By *oo hot OP Couple 40 weeks ago
North West |
With the United States proving itself to be an unreliable ally more concerned with domestic issues than its international allies, is the time right for a new European Armed Alliance?
The Baltic states seem to be taking the threat from Russia very seriously whilst many here in the U.K. are still poodling along thinking that what is happening in Ukraine has nothing to do with us.
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"What's changed? Look at how long it took the USA to join in WWII. They've always been an unreliable ally."
They were reluctant obviously and without Pearl Harbour it might have taken longer but their industrial might massively changed how the war progressed ..
Not sure where you get unreliable from? |
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"What's changed? Look at how long it took the USA to join in WWII. They've always been an unreliable ally."
"They were reluctant obviously and without Pearl Harbour it might have taken longer but their industrial might massively changed how the war progressed ..
Not sure where you get unreliable from?"
Seems obvious to me. The UK got involved in a war, and the USA refused to join in and help us out. They continued to refuse until they themselves were attacked, when suddenly it became the most important thing in the world to them.
So 'unreliable' because we can't rely on them to help out when we need it, they'll only join in when it suits their purposes.
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"What's changed? Look at how long it took the USA to join in WWII. They've always been an unreliable ally.
They were reluctant obviously and without Pearl Harbour it might have taken longer but their industrial might massively changed how the war progressed ..
Not sure where you get unreliable from?
Seems obvious to me. The UK got involved in a war, and the USA refused to join in and help us out. They continued to refuse until they themselves were attacked, when suddenly it became the most important thing in the world to them.
So 'unreliable' because we can't rely on them to help out when we need it, they'll only join in when it suits their purposes.
"
always the way, the uk will join the us without even being asked because we are there bitch, the u.s will only help out when there is something in it for them, only reason there pumping cash into ukraine is they know the country is pretty much theres if ukraine manage a win and thats looking less and less likley by the week |
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By *otMe66Man 40 weeks ago
Terra Firma |
"What's changed? Look at how long it took the USA to join in WWII. They've always been an unreliable ally.
They were reluctant obviously and without Pearl Harbour it might have taken longer but their industrial might massively changed how the war progressed ..
Not sure where you get unreliable from?
Seems obvious to me. The UK got involved in a war, and the USA refused to join in and help us out. They continued to refuse until they themselves were attacked, when suddenly it became the most important thing in the world to them.
So 'unreliable' because we can't rely on them to help out when we need it, they'll only join in when it suits their purposes.
"
Why would the US have jumped in early? WW1 was still painful and in contrast to now, it was a driving force behind the US wanting to isolate and stay out of foreign affairs.
On top of that the great depression had only just ended. |
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"What's changed? Look at how long it took the USA to join in WWII. They've always been an unreliable ally."
I think what's changed is that many European countries used to assume they won't be facing a war in the near future but not anymore. They didn't expect Putin to go on an all-out offensive like this. |
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"With the United States proving itself to be an unreliable ally more concerned with domestic issues than its international allies, is the time right for a new European Armed Alliance?
The Baltic states seem to be taking the threat from Russia very seriously whilst many here in the U.K. are still poodling along thinking that what is happening in Ukraine has nothing to do with us.
"
so they should rightly look after domestic issues..,shame the uk cant do the same poking our nose into other countrys affairs where its not wanted |
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"
So 'unreliable' because we can't rely on them to help out when we need it, they'll only join in when it suits their purposes.
"
My own issue with the USA is that they will quite happily support murderous despots & help remove democratically elected leaders in other countries as long as it helps keep their singular version of a “Free World” on it’s course which is usually more suitable & profitable to their economy &/or their way of life.
And bollox to those getting in the way.
S |
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By *oo hot OP Couple 40 weeks ago
North West |
"With the United States proving itself to be an unreliable ally more concerned with domestic issues than its international allies, is the time right for a new European Armed Alliance?
The Baltic states seem to be taking the threat from Russia very seriously whilst many here in the U.K. are still poodling along thinking that what is happening in Ukraine has nothing to do with us.
so they should rightly look after domestic issues..,shame the uk cant do the same poking our nose into other countrys affairs where its not wanted"
I think you are missing the point. The Baltic states (and Poland) know all too well what it is like to live under Russian domination and they are now scared of what might be coming down the line again. Particularly as Putin has said that the collapse of the Soviet Union was the greatest tragedy to ever befall Russia.
We appeased Putin since 2014 and then got the shock of our lives when he actually launched a full scale invasion of Ukraine two years ago. American inaction will inevitably see the end of Ukraine and Putin won’t stop there if the US continues to withhold support for Western Europe.
We all need to be prepared for a very hostil Russia for decades to come unless Putin can be beaten back now. |
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Hard lessons being learnt from western and nato dithering in support for Ukraine.
BBC fergal Keane said on a report this week 380,000 Ukrainian combatants killed and injured. First time have heard a figure released in 2 years |
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"What's changed? Look at how long it took the USA to join in WWII. They've always been an unreliable ally.
They were reluctant obviously and without Pearl Harbour it might have taken longer but their industrial might massively changed how the war progressed ..
Not sure where you get unreliable from?
Seems obvious to me. The UK got involved in a war, and the USA refused to join in and help us out. They continued to refuse until they themselves were attacked, when suddenly it became the most important thing in the world to them.
So 'unreliable' because we can't rely on them to help out when we need it, they'll only join in when it suits their purposes.
"
We didn't have an alliance, they weren't part of the commonwealth and as not me said the memory of ww1 was still fairly recent..
They didn't get involved when us and France stepped in with Libya and got criticised but they were right not to do so..
They were helping out with the lend/ lease and US citizens who crossed into Canada to join the RAF weren't stopped..
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"With the United States proving itself to be an unreliable ally more concerned with domestic issues than its international allies, is the time right for a new European Armed Alliance?
The Baltic states seem to be taking the threat from Russia very seriously whilst many here in the U.K. are still poodling along thinking that what is happening in Ukraine has nothing to do with us.
"
Ukrainian troops pulling out of the key eastern city of Avdiivka, handing Moscow its first major military victory since last May, just days before the second anniversary of the Russian invasion
Should have done a lot more a lot earlier.
Nato is chicken whilst promising Ukraine membership, sometime. |
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"
We appeased Putin since 2014 and then got the shock of our lives when he actually launched a full scale invasion of Ukraine two years ago. American inaction will inevitably see the end of Ukraine and Putin won’t stop there if the US continues to withhold support for Western Europe.
We all need to be prepared for a very hostil Russia for decades to come unless Putin can be beaten back now."
Something Russia/Putin gets very, very right is knowing exactly how far they can push the West before the balance of politics, popular support and sensibilities kick in against them. And how to manipulate that in their favour. |
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"shame the uk cant do the same poking our nose into other countrys affairs where its not wanted"
It's a global world with trade and resources scattered all over the planet.
.
Most countries do not have the domestic infrastructure to grow their own food AND manufacture their own goods. And if if they did, other countries can do it cheaper.
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So we have to be involved with other countries business, because our business is there. And we have to protect our interests and ensure the long-term viability of that interest. Thus, ensuring their vision and values align with ours, or where they are not, encouraging peaceful regime change.
.
And it's easy to say, "What gives us the right" ? That's the wrong question however.(Although you could say "What gives them right to treat their people the way they do ?). Neither have satisfactory answers. Unless you want to go down the "Sovereign Right".
Unfortunately even that is trumped (or should be) by another Right. A Human Right.
.
That's I value Humanism. It comes before everything else. It emphasizes the individual, regardless of the power structure that over arcs them.
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You don't have to get behind business. You don't have to get behind politics. You don't even have to get behind religion, or nationalism, or any other man-made concept.
But for the love of all that is good, get behind fellow human beings, and if they do not have the same freedoms you enjoy, perhaps even take for granted, question their power structures, hold them to account, and if you can, effect change.
.
This above all, is where "meddling" in other's affairs is warranted and justifiable. |
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By (user no longer on site) 39 weeks ago
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"With the United States proving itself to be an unreliable ally more concerned with domestic issues than its international allies, is the time right for a new European Armed Alliance?
The Baltic states seem to be taking the threat from Russia very seriously whilst many here in the U.K. are still poodling along thinking that what is happening in Ukraine has nothing to do with us.
"
Do you just take ad verbatim what media publish as gospel or do you actually investigate yourself as to what's going on? The US has sent tend of thousands of extra troops into Europe these coming months? |
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By *oo hot OP Couple 39 weeks ago
North West |
"With the United States proving itself to be an unreliable ally more concerned with domestic issues than its international allies, is the time right for a new European Armed Alliance?
The Baltic states seem to be taking the threat from Russia very seriously whilst many here in the U.K. are still poodling along thinking that what is happening in Ukraine has nothing to do with us.
Do you just take ad verbatim what media publish as gospel or do you actually investigate yourself as to what's going on? The US has sent tend of thousands of extra troops into Europe these coming months? "
Clearly I pay more attention than you do as very prominent Republicans have stated not another bullet for Ukraine and Trump himself has questioned US membership of NATO.
I take it you are aware that there is an election in the US in nine months time, the results of which could upend current US policies to a polar opposite position.
It is unreliable that US Foreign policy is wholly dependent on the incoming Administration and that the policy could veer dramatically every five years.
This is what unreliable means. |
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I think it's a bit rich to be slagging off the USA on this subject given that they are the the highest contributor in actual spending and 2nd in % of GDP, especially when everyone else seems to be more interested in spending at home and reducing or failing to meet their 2% committment. I hope Trump's comments have the required, belated, effect in that the rest of the members step up to the mark. An extra point is that I notice the UK has one of the highest defence budgets yet a dwindling armed forces and failing nuclear deterrent. Wtf is going on there??? |
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"With the United States proving itself to be an unreliable ally more concerned with domestic issues than its international allies, is the time right for a new European Armed Alliance?
The Baltic states seem to be taking the threat from Russia very seriously whilst many here in the U.K. are still poodling along thinking that what is happening in Ukraine has nothing to do with us.
"
No. Anyone who served alongside some of our “European military partners” in the former Yugoslavia will know exactly why. |
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By *oo hot OP Couple 39 weeks ago
North West |
"I think it's a bit rich to be slagging off the USA on this subject given that they are the the highest contributor in actual spending and 2nd in % of GDP, especially when everyone else seems to be more interested in spending at home and reducing or failing to meet their 2% committment. I hope Trump's comments have the required, belated, effect in that the rest of the members step up to the mark. An extra point is that I notice the UK has one of the highest defence budgets yet a dwindling armed forces and failing nuclear deterrent. Wtf is going on there???"
No one is slagging off the USA. The issue is about the ability of that country to have a consistent foreign policy irrespective of the governing administration.
The U.K. does pay a lot for defence but overwhelmingly that is to maintain a nuclear deterrent. Point taken that the last two Trident launches have both failed |
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By *oo hot OP Couple 39 weeks ago
North West |
"With the United States proving itself to be an unreliable ally more concerned with domestic issues than its international allies, is the time right for a new European Armed Alliance?
The Baltic states seem to be taking the threat from Russia very seriously whilst many here in the U.K. are still poodling along thinking that what is happening in Ukraine has nothing to do with us.
No. Anyone who served alongside some of our “European military partners” in the former Yugoslavia will know exactly why. "
So what would you propose in the scenario of Congress blocking all further funding for Ukraine, Israel and Taiwan and then Trump getting back in come November?
The Republicans are blocking support for allies who are resisting expansionism of regimes and states that are a threat to Europe and to the world.
Hammas and other fundamentalists have made no secret of their desire to wipe Israel off the map and to expand Islamist governance across the Middle East. China does not recognise Taiwan as being anything other than a part of China and Putin regards the fall of the Soviet Union as the biggest tragedy to affect the Russian Federation in the 20th Century.
America turns its back - so then what? |
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USA not in NATO would make them very weak and lonely with no one to trade with when those around are consumed by communisim. Russia does not need a war with the USA, just those around them.
Pearl harbour was attacked as the USA was seen as weak, it was, and it took some time get its act together. Sadly its dithering about supporting Ukraine and inability to sway Israel it again is looking weak. The clocks ticking, the Russians are coming and will continue to come. Ukraine is the link if it falls then the that leaves the little gap to Kaliningrad - job done and Baltics a lot harder to support. That also massively reduces a war front for Russia to move into the rest of Europe.
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"I think it's a bit rich to be slagging off the USA on this subject given that they are the the highest contributor in actual spending and 2nd in % of GDP, especially when everyone else seems to be more interested in spending at home and reducing or failing to meet their 2% committment. I hope Trump's comments have the required, belated, effect in that the rest of the members step up to the mark. An extra point is that I notice the UK has one of the highest defence budgets yet a dwindling armed forces and failing nuclear deterrent. Wtf is going on there???
No one is slagging off the USA. The issue is about the ability of that country to have a consistent foreign policy irrespective of the governing administration.
The U.K. does pay a lot for defence but overwhelmingly that is to maintain a nuclear deterrent. Point taken that the last two Trident launches have both failed "
With all due respect, the term unreliable ally is slagging off in my book. As and when the other NATO members take it as seriously as the USA currently does they can criticise in my humble opinion |
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"With the United States proving itself to be an unreliable ally more concerned with domestic issues than its international allies, is the time right for a new European Armed Alliance?
The Baltic states seem to be taking the threat from Russia very seriously whilst many here in the U.K. are still poodling along thinking that what is happening in Ukraine has nothing to do with us.
No. Anyone who served alongside some of our “European military partners” in the former Yugoslavia will know exactly why.
So what would you propose in the scenario of Congress blocking all further funding for Ukraine, Israel and Taiwan and then Trump getting back in come November?
The Republicans are blocking support for allies who are resisting expansionism of regimes and states that are a threat to Europe and to the world.
Hammas and other fundamentalists have made no secret of their desire to wipe Israel off the map and to expand Islamist governance across the Middle East. China does not recognise Taiwan as being anything other than a part of China and Putin regards the fall of the Soviet Union as the biggest tragedy to affect the Russian Federation in the 20th Century.
America turns its back - so then what?"
How about the EU starts some taking military responsibility? |
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By *oo hot OP Couple 39 weeks ago
North West |
"With the United States proving itself to be an unreliable ally more concerned with domestic issues than its international allies, is the time right for a new European Armed Alliance?
The Baltic states seem to be taking the threat from Russia very seriously whilst many here in the U.K. are still poodling along thinking that what is happening in Ukraine has nothing to do with us.
No. Anyone who served alongside some of our “European military partners” in the former Yugoslavia will know exactly why.
So what would you propose in the scenario of Congress blocking all further funding for Ukraine, Israel and Taiwan and then Trump getting back in come November?
The Republicans are blocking support for allies who are resisting expansionism of regimes and states that are a threat to Europe and to the world.
Hammas and other fundamentalists have made no secret of their desire to wipe Israel off the map and to expand Islamist governance across the Middle East. China does not recognise Taiwan as being anything other than a part of China and Putin regards the fall of the Soviet Union as the biggest tragedy to affect the Russian Federation in the 20th Century.
America turns its back - so then what?
How about the EU starts some taking military responsibility? "
Have you read the name of this thread? |
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"With the United States proving itself to be an unreliable ally more concerned with domestic issues than its international allies, is the time right for a new European Armed Alliance?
The Baltic states seem to be taking the threat from Russia very seriously whilst many here in the U.K. are still poodling along thinking that what is happening in Ukraine has nothing to do with us.
No. Anyone who served alongside some of our “European military partners” in the former Yugoslavia will know exactly why.
So what would you propose in the scenario of Congress blocking all further funding for Ukraine, Israel and Taiwan and then Trump getting back in come November?
The Republicans are blocking support for allies who are resisting expansionism of regimes and states that are a threat to Europe and to the world.
Hammas and other fundamentalists have made no secret of their desire to wipe Israel off the map and to expand Islamist governance across the Middle East. China does not recognise Taiwan as being anything other than a part of China and Putin regards the fall of the Soviet Union as the biggest tragedy to affect the Russian Federation in the 20th Century.
America turns its back - so then what?
How about the EU starts some taking military responsibility?
Have you read the name of this thread?"
"The issue is about that country" the USA. I can read the name of the read... perhaps you should refrain from bringing the USA into it |
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By *oo hot OP Couple 39 weeks ago
North West |
"With the United States proving itself to be an unreliable ally more concerned with domestic issues than its international allies, is the time right for a new European Armed Alliance?
The Baltic states seem to be taking the threat from Russia very seriously whilst many here in the U.K. are still poodling along thinking that what is happening in Ukraine has nothing to do with us.
No. Anyone who served alongside some of our “European military partners” in the former Yugoslavia will know exactly why.
So what would you propose in the scenario of Congress blocking all further funding for Ukraine, Israel and Taiwan and then Trump getting back in come November?
The Republicans are blocking support for allies who are resisting expansionism of regimes and states that are a threat to Europe and to the world.
Hammas and other fundamentalists have made no secret of their desire to wipe Israel off the map and to expand Islamist governance across the Middle East. China does not recognise Taiwan as being anything other than a part of China and Putin regards the fall of the Soviet Union as the biggest tragedy to affect the Russian Federation in the 20th Century.
America turns its back - so then what?
How about the EU starts some taking military responsibility?
Have you read the name of this thread?
"The issue is about that country" the USA. I can read the name of the read... perhaps you should refrain from bringing the USA into it"
American foreign policy is at risk of changing direction every four years at the whim of an incumbent administration - that makes it unreliable.
Therefore from a European perspective it seems self evident that European nations need to work cohesively to counter threats in Europe if American can’t be relied on.
You seem to be agreeing, but disagreeing for some other reason? |
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