FabSwingers.com > Forums > Politics > Greek artefact row
Greek artefact row
Jump to: Newest in thread
 |
By *ermbi OP Man 51 weeks ago
Ballyshannon |
Sunak spits out dummy after Greek PM wants marbles from the Acropolis back. After pillaging the world of treasures etc the Brits live up to arrogance by not giving artefacts back. Amazing really. |
Reply privately, Reply in forum +quote
or View forums list | |
|
By *ercuryMan 51 weeks ago
Grantham |
It's widely accepted that the Marbles were legally removed by Elgin. Documents from the early 19th Century seem to bear this out.
However, it's also widely recognised that it was extremely unethical. So let's be fair here, they need to go back to Greece, and probably sooner rather than later.
The UK could play the longer game here, and appease the Greeks. Rishi Sunak was wrong to cancel a meeting with the Greek PM. He could have been holding a joint news conference, saying that a working agreement had been reached to facilitate their return. |
Reply privately, Reply in forum +quote
or View forums list | |
"Sunak spits out dummy after Greek PM wants marbles from the Acropolis back. After pillaging the world of treasures etc the Brits live up to arrogance by not giving artefacts back. Amazing really. "
Oretty much every country has museums with artifacts that's aren't from their country |
Reply privately, Reply in forum +quote
or View forums list | |
|
By *otMe66Man 51 weeks ago
Terra Firma |
"Sunak spits out dummy after Greek PM wants marbles from the Acropolis back. After pillaging the world of treasures etc the Brits live up to arrogance by not giving artefacts back. Amazing really.
Oretty much every country has museums with artifacts that's aren't from their country"
But that’s okay, because they’re not in England |
Reply privately, Reply in forum +quote
or View forums list | |
|
By *addad99Man 51 weeks ago
Rotherham /newquay |
I think we should keep them if it wasn't for are ancestors we wouldn't be in such a great country I'm proud of everything they did from taking land to going to war if they didn't we wouldn't be here now. |
Reply privately, Reply in forum +quote
or View forums list | |
|
By *ony 2016Man 51 weeks ago
Huddersfield /derby cinemas |
On World at One , Gillian Keegan MP saying The UK is friendly with Greece adding we work well together tackling crime
Maybe Sunak's meeting should have taken place with item 1 being , did we pinch the marbles , if so , let's get this crime sorted out |
Reply privately, Reply in forum +quote
or View forums list | |
"They came from Greece so that's where they belong."
"Would you use the same argument about all of the Greek people living in the UK?"
"People aren't inanimate objects."
OK then, how about all the BMWs, and Audis, and Porsches in the UK. They all came from Germany, should we send them all back if the companies ask us to? |
Reply privately, Reply in forum +quote
or View forums list | |
|
By *ony 2016Man 51 weeks ago
Huddersfield /derby cinemas |
"They came from Greece so that's where they belong.
Would you use the same argument about all of the Greek people living in the UK?
People aren't inanimate objects.
OK then, how about all the BMWs, and Audis, and Porsches in the UK. They all came from Germany, should we send them all back if the companies ask us to?"
If we had pinched them , yes we should |
Reply privately, Reply in forum +quote
or View forums list | |
|
By (user no longer on site) 51 weeks ago
|
"They came from Greece so that's where they belong.
Would you use the same argument about all of the Greek people living in the UK?
People aren't inanimate objects.
OK then, how about all the BMWs, and Audis, and Porsches in the UK. They all came from Germany, should we send them all back if the companies ask us to?"
Come get these Mini Coopers they are annoying. |
Reply privately, Reply in forum +quote
or View forums list | |
|
By (user no longer on site) 51 weeks ago
|
"I think we should keep them if it wasn't for are ancestors we wouldn't be in such a great country I'm proud of everything they did from taking land to going to war if they didn't we wouldn't be here now."
Your here now because someone made love, not war...  |
Reply privately, Reply in forum +quote
or View forums list | |
"On World at One , Gillian Keegan MP saying The UK is friendly with Greece adding we work well together tackling crime
Maybe Sunak's meeting should have taken place with item 1 being , did we pinch the marbles , if so , let's get this crime sorted out "
No crime was involved.
|
Reply privately, Reply in forum +quote
or View forums list | |
"They came from Greece so that's where they belong.
Would you use the same argument about all of the Greek people living in the UK?
People aren't inanimate objects.
OK then, how about all the BMWs, and Audis, and Porsches in the UK. They all came from Germany, should we send them all back if the companies ask us to?"
Not sure how you've jumped from people to cars.
But sure, if British people went to Germany and just took them, brought them here, and the owners wanted them back. Yeah.
If they purchased them after they were imported into the UK. No. |
Reply privately, Reply in forum +quote
or View forums list | |
"They came from Greece so that's where they belong."
"Would you use the same argument about all of the Greek people living in the UK?"
"People aren't inanimate objects."
"OK then, how about all the BMWs, and Audis, and Porsches in the UK. They all came from Germany, should we send them all back if the companies ask us to?"
"If we had pinched them , yes we should "
But the Elgin marbles weren't pinched, they were purchased in accordance with the law at the time. |
Reply privately, Reply in forum +quote
or View forums list | |
"They came from Greece so that's where they belong.
Would you use the same argument about all of the Greek people living in the UK?
People aren't inanimate objects.
OK then, how about all the BMWs, and Audis, and Porsches in the UK. They all came from Germany, should we send them all back if the companies ask us to?
If we had pinched them , yes we should
But the Elgin marbles weren't pinched, they were purchased in accordance with the law at the time."
Wikipedia says that the British museum bought them from Elgin.
|
Reply privately, Reply in forum +quote
or View forums list | |
|
By *lan157Man 51 weeks ago
a village near Haywards Heath in East Sussex |
"Wikipedia says that the British museum bought them from Elgin.
Yes, and Elgin bought them from the Ottomans, who were in charge of Greece at the time."
I think I have a bed of theirs if they would like it back ? |
Reply privately, Reply in forum +quote
or View forums list | |
"Wikipedia says that the British museum bought them from Elgin.
Yes, and Elgin bought them from the Ottomans, who were in charge of Greece at the time."
You mean had taken it over through colonialism and therefore diddnt value them or was a deliberate act of cultural elimination.
If The Eiffel Tower as sitting in downtown Milan cos in the mid 1940s the current rulers took it fair and square and sold it legally to the Italians it would be absurd.
This is the same thing.
They should go back as they were there for about 2000 years and we have had the for a few hundred.
|
Reply privately, Reply in forum +quote
or View forums list | |
"Wikipedia says that the British museum bought them from Elgin."
"Yes, and Elgin bought them from the Ottomans, who were in charge of Greece at the time."
"You mean had taken it over through colonialism and therefore diddnt value them or was a deliberate act of cultural elimination."
So you're saying that Lord Elgin should have had the foresight to realise that the Ottoman Empire which had governed the country for the past 300 years, would soon fall, and that the Greeks would re-take the country.
Whether the marbles were being lost through cultural elimination, or just simple neglect, what do you think Lord Elgin should have done? Should he have just left them there to be burned by the locals? |
Reply privately, Reply in forum +quote
or View forums list | |
I have to say that, whilst I don't have any knowledge of the Greek PM other than his appearance on a certain BBC programme on Sunday morning, I am aware that our current government is filled with bullshitters so I'm inclined to side with the Greeks |
Reply privately, Reply in forum +quote
or View forums list | |
Lord Elgin did what he thought was best at the time.
Greece should have them back perhaps at the cost today of what the British Government paid Elgin for.
They could perhaps then put that sum toward the 40 hospitals they were going to build.  |
Reply privately, Reply in forum +quote
or View forums list | |
|
By *ercuryMan 51 weeks ago
Grantham |
"Lord Elgin did what he thought was best at the time.
Greece should have them back perhaps at the cost today of what the British Government paid Elgin for.
They could perhaps then put that sum toward the 40 hospitals they were going to build. "
Sorry, but in todays money, they would go for just short of £4m. |
Reply privately, Reply in forum +quote
or View forums list | |
"Lord Elgin did what he thought was best at the time.
Greece should have them back perhaps at the cost today of what the British Government paid Elgin for.
They could perhaps then put that sum toward the 40 hospitals they were going to build.
Sorry, but in todays money, they would go for just short of £4m."
My flippancy aside around hospitals. 4m would be fair to be honest and the UK would be hard pressed to think of a reason to turn that down. |
Reply privately, Reply in forum +quote
or View forums list | |
"I can imagine the almighty row if the Greek PM snubbed Sunak. Not very statesman like to snub another PM. Playing politics again"
Politicians playing politics? 
Well fuck my old boots..
The Greek guy was playing politics in talking about it to Starmer..
And vice versa..
It's what they do, those political types.. |
Reply privately, Reply in forum +quote
or View forums list | |
"They came from Greece so that's where they belong.
Would you use the same argument about all of the Greek people living in the UK?
People aren't inanimate objects.
OK then, how about all the BMWs, and Audis, and Porsches in the UK. They all came from Germany, should we send them all back if the companies ask us to?"
Their sold not st0len |
Reply privately, Reply in forum +quote
or View forums list | |
"They came from Greece so that's where they belong."
"Would you use the same argument about all of the Greek people living in the UK?"
"People aren't inanimate objects."
"OK then, how about all the BMWs, and Audis, and Porsches in the UK. They all came from Germany, should we send them all back if the companies ask us to?"
"Their sold not st0len"
The marbles weren't st0len either. They were bought by Lord Elgin from the Ottomans, and then sold to the British Museum.
There was a full parliamentary enquiry that established that Lord Elgin had acquired the marbles legally. |
Reply privately, Reply in forum +quote
or View forums list | |
"They came from Greece so that's where they belong.
Would you use the same argument about all of the Greek people living in the UK?
People aren't inanimate objects.
OK then, how about all the BMWs, and Audis, and Porsches in the UK. They all came from Germany, should we send them all back if the companies ask us to?
Their sold not st0len
The marbles weren't st0len either. They were bought by Lord Elgin from the Ottomans, and then sold to the British Museum.
There was a full parliamentary enquiry that established that Lord Elgin had acquired the marbles legally."
Was that the Greek parliamentary enquiry, or our government enquiry, who concluded that our guy was actually cool, nothing to worry about? |
Reply privately, Reply in forum +quote
or View forums list | |
The big challenge here is setting a precedent, both moral and legal. If the Elgin marbles are returned, it opens the door for all artefacts in museums to be returned to their place of origin. I suppose in 2023 everything could be 3D scanned anyway and put online. Do we need the actual items in museums gathering dust? |
Reply privately, Reply in forum +quote
or View forums list | |
"There was a full parliamentary enquiry that established that Lord Elgin had acquired the marbles legally."
"Was that the Greek parliamentary enquiry, or our government enquiry, who concluded that our guy was actually cool, nothing to worry about?"
It was a British enquiry. I'm not aware of the Greeks ever having had such an enquiry. |
Reply privately, Reply in forum +quote
or View forums list | |
"There was a full parliamentary enquiry that established that Lord Elgin had acquired the marbles legally.
Was that the Greek parliamentary enquiry, or our government enquiry, who concluded that our guy was actually cool, nothing to worry about?
It was a British enquiry. I'm not aware of the Greeks ever having had such an enquiry."
The greeks have no need to hold an enquiry, because they know it was st0len and are asking for them to be returned.
If someone came into my house and took something from my history then I would like them to return it.
Wouldn't you. |
Reply privately, Reply in forum +quote
or View forums list | |
"There was a full parliamentary enquiry that established that Lord Elgin had acquired the marbles legally.
Was that the Greek parliamentary enquiry, or our government enquiry, who concluded that our guy was actually cool, nothing to worry about?
It was a British enquiry. I'm not aware of the Greeks ever having had such an enquiry.
The greeks have no need to hold an enquiry, because they know it was st0len and are asking for them to be returned.
If someone came into my house and took something from my history then I would like them to return it.
Wouldn't you."
They were bought from the rulers at the time. It's hardly the same as someone taking something from your house.
On the other hand we should just give up everything we have, and then some people still won't be happy, so we should give up our souls too. |
Reply privately, Reply in forum +quote
or View forums list | |
"The greeks have no need to hold an enquiry, because they know it was st0len and are asking for them to be returned."
How do they know they were st0len? The paperwork and a British parliamentary enquiry says they weren't. What evidence do the Greeks have that says otherwise? And how will they know any of that without having some sort of enquiry?
"If someone came into my house and took something from my history then I would like them to return it.
Wouldn't you."
I would, but that's because I have an unbroken chain of ownership of that thing. The Greeks don't have that. The people now living in Greece are not the same ones that were ejected by the Ottomans. To claim ownership of antiquities, the current Greek government would need to prove that the people of Greece today are, at least in part, descendents of the people that used to live in that area 2500 years ago. Not an easy task with the old Greeks having fled the country, and then a 350 year gap in the records. |
Reply privately, Reply in forum +quote
or View forums list | |
"They came from Greece so that's where they belong.
Would you use the same argument about all of the Greek people living in the UK?
People aren't inanimate objects.
OK then, how about all the BMWs, and Audis, and Porsches in the UK. They all came from Germany, should we send them all back if the companies ask us to?"
they are all junk,yes send them back |
Reply privately, Reply in forum +quote
or View forums list | |
|
By *ip2Man 51 weeks ago
Near Maidenhead |
I looked to compare the ancient Greek marbles in London with the similar ones in Berlin.
Why are there ancient Greek marbles in London and in Berlin? Why do the former have a history of controversy and the latter's history seems to me to be less so?
Firstly, the Ottoman empire, that grew from the Black Sea coast of modern-day Turkey, didn't care much about ancient Greek stonework, apparently.
The Ottoman Empire occupied modern-day Turkey and modern-day Greece at the time.
Starting in 1802, Elgin took the treasures from Athens, now a capital city of 3 million, with the permission of the then Ottomans in charge.
From 1879 there was an agreement between the Ottoman Empire and the German government to move sculptures from Pergamon in Turkey to Berlin.
Today, the Pergamon site is near to the modern town of Bergama. Bergama is about 10 km inland from the western coast of Turkey. Bergama has a population of about 60,000.
In England, according to Britannica, "Elgin was assailed for rapacity, vandalism, and dishonesty in hauling the Greek treasures to London. Lord Byron and many others attacked Elgin’s actions in print".
Elgin published a defence of his actions and it appears that a committee of Parliament agreed, as has been noted above.
On the Museum Island in Berlin, traces of paint on the sculptures have been preserved.
I don't know if there is a controversy on whether the treasures in Berlin should be returned to Turkey. |
Reply privately, Reply in forum +quote
or View forums list | |
"There was a full parliamentary enquiry that established that Lord Elgin had acquired the marbles legally.
Was that the Greek parliamentary enquiry, or our government enquiry, who concluded that our guy was actually cool, nothing to worry about?
It was a British enquiry. I'm not aware of the Greeks ever having had such an enquiry.
The greeks have no need to hold an enquiry, because they know it was st0len and are asking for them to be returned.
If someone came into my house and took something from my history then I would like them to return it.
Wouldn't you.
They were bought from the rulers at the time. It's hardly the same as someone taking something from your house.
On the other hand we should just give up everything we have, and then some people still won't be happy, so we should give up our souls too. "
Not our souls, the government as they are a soulless lot. |
Reply privately, Reply in forum +quote
or View forums list | |
|
By *aid backMan 51 weeks ago
by a lake with my rod out |
The simple solution is to return the artefacts but ask them to be loaned back for X number of years let's say 5 that way the British museum gets to keep them for a set time so people who want to see for a last time can. |
Reply privately, Reply in forum +quote
or View forums list | |
"I looked to compare the ancient Greek marbles in London with the similar ones in Berlin.
Why are there ancient Greek marbles in London and in Berlin? Why do the former have a history of controversy and the latter's history seems to me to be less so?
Firstly, the Ottoman empire, that grew from the Black Sea coast of modern-day Turkey, didn't care much about ancient Greek stonework, apparently.
The Ottoman Empire occupied modern-day Turkey and modern-day Greece at the time.
Starting in 1802, Elgin took the treasures from Athens, now a capital city of 3 million, with the permission of the then Ottomans in charge.
From 1879 there was an agreement between the Ottoman Empire and the German government to move sculptures from Pergamon in Turkey to Berlin.
Today, the Pergamon site is near to the modern town of Bergama. Bergama is about 10 km inland from the western coast of Turkey. Bergama has a population of about 60,000.
In England, according to Britannica, "Elgin was assailed for rapacity, vandalism, and dishonesty in hauling the Greek treasures to London. Lord Byron and many others attacked Elgin’s actions in print".
Elgin published a defence of his actions and it appears that a committee of Parliament agreed, as has been noted above.
On the Museum Island in Berlin, traces of paint on the sculptures have been preserved.
I don't know if there is a controversy on whether the treasures in Berlin should be returned to Turkey."
Assuming the above is accurate, and I have no reason to think it isn't then it would appear both of the items ( UK and German) were obtained with permission from the rulers at the time |
Reply privately, Reply in forum +quote
or View forums list | |
|
By *ip2Man 51 weeks ago
Near Maidenhead |
"Assuming the above is accurate, and I have no reason to think it isn't then it would appear both of the items ( UK and German) were obtained with permission from the rulers at the time"
Thank you. I just wondered if the fame level is quite a bit different.
The Parthenon is in the Acropolis site that has had up to 3 million visitors per year (!)
It's in a capital city with an airport, and a port for cruise ships.
By contrast, the Pergamon site is in a fairly rural region of the west coast of Turkey.
It's a few hundred km from the capital city of Ankara in the centre of the country, and of course Istanbul. |
Reply privately, Reply in forum +quote
or View forums list | |
"Wikipedia says that the British museum bought them from Elgin.
Yes, and Elgin bought them from the Ottomans, who were in charge of Greece at the time."
We were under occupation from the ottomans.
And just like the nazis looted the world Britain refuses to give them back |
Reply privately, Reply in forum +quote
or View forums list | |
"Wikipedia says that the British museum bought them from Elgin."
"Yes, and Elgin bought them from the Ottomans, who were in charge of Greece at the time."
"We were under occupation from the ottomans."
The Ottomans controlled Greece for nearly 400 years. I think "under occupation" might be a tad inaccurate.
"And just like the nazis looted the world Britain refuses to give them back"
But Britain didn't loot them. A Briton bought them legally. That's not the behaviour of a Nazi. |
Reply privately, Reply in forum +quote
or View forums list | |
"Sunak spits out dummy after Greek PM wants marbles from the Acropolis back. After pillaging the world of treasures etc the Brits live up to arrogance by not giving artefacts back. Amazing really. "
The Greek government should of asked the gezza nicking stuff from the British museum. |
Reply privately, Reply in forum +quote
or View forums list | |
» Add a new message to this topic
