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Men are women in Wales?
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"So, the esteemed Welsh leader, Mr Dripford, believes that men can self identify as transgender women. Does this mean that I won't be in trouble if I tell Dripford to "Go fuck himself"? Asking for a friend..... "How unenlightened. I believe that the correct phrase when some privileged, credibility seeking, clueless, doughnut when talking about trans rights is "themselves". Therefore, the person concerned can go and "fuck themself". Sorry to be pedantic. | |||
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"Well the sheep will be happy " in my experience women & sheep tend to run away when asked if they want to have sex | |||
"So, the esteemed Welsh leader, Mr Dripford, believes that men can self identify as transgender women. Does this mean that I won't be in trouble if I tell Dripford to "Go fuck himself"? Asking for a friend.....
How unenlightened.
I believe that the correct phrase when some privileged, credibility seeking, clueless, doughnut when talking about trans rights is "themselves". Therefore, the person concerned can go and "fuck themself".
Sorry to be pedantic. "Actually. As Mark Drakeford corresponds to the traditional binary opposition of male. 'Himself' is the correct address in this situation.  | |||
"So, the esteemed Welsh leader, Mr Dripford, believes that men can self identify as transgender women. Does this mean that I won't be in trouble if I tell Dripford to "Go fuck himself"? Asking for a friend....." "How unenlightened. I believe that the correct phrase when some privileged, credibility seeking, clueless, doughnut when talking about trans rights is "themselves". Therefore, the person concerned can go and "fuck themself". Sorry to be pedantic." "Actually. As Mark Drakeford corresponds to the traditional binary opposition of male. 'Himself' is the correct address in this situation. " I don't think that's how it works. The fact that he looks like the traditional definition of male shouldn't be relevant. We're supposed to address him/her/them as whatever their own internal definition is. So unless Mark Drakeford has made an official announcement about his sexuality, using 'they/themselves' is the option least likely to cause offence. | |||
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"WTAF. I'm completely lost "Welcome to the New World  | |||
"Mr Drakeford in this instance hasn't declared 'him'self to be Binary fluid or claim a gender identity in that regard. But he is talking about others that do and is in support of that. So 'He' remains 'Him' in all forms of address when talking about 'His' Gender Identity. So. 'Him'Self which means 'he' sits on the corresponds spectrum of traditional binary opposition of Male/Female - He/Him/She/Her. Obviously he isn't Female so to properly address him - even in a joke is 'Him'Self not 'Them'self. Hope this is clearer." Is that how it works then? So if I meet a person that looks male to me, it's OK for me to address them as 'he', and they have no right to be offended if it turns out that they consider themselves female. How about if I meet a person that looks male to me, but they're wearing a dress. Is it OK for me to address them as 'he', or should I take account of the ambiguity and call them 'they'? | |||
"Mr Drakeford in this instance hasn't declared 'him'self to be Binary fluid or claim a gender identity in that regard. But he is talking about others that do and is in support of that. So 'He' remains 'Him' in all forms of address when talking about 'His' Gender Identity. So. 'Him'Self which means 'he' sits on the corresponds spectrum of traditional binary opposition of Male/Female - He/Him/She/Her. Obviously he isn't Female so to properly address him - even in a joke is 'Him'Self not 'Them'self. Hope this is clearer. Is that how it works then? So if I meet a person that looks male to me, it's OK for me to address them as 'he', and they have no right to be offended if it turns out that they consider themselves female. How about if I meet a person that looks male to me, but they're wearing a dress. Is it OK for me to address them as 'he', or should I take account of the ambiguity and call them 'they'?" The simple answer is to start at the corresponding traditional binary of he/him/she/her. If the person doesn't wish to be in that part of the traditional spectrum. Be sure that they will tell you. 'They' is traditionally a third-person plural pronoun. It would be incorrect to use it when addressing a person directly. Otherwise, Just use their preferred or given name. After all, I don't announce myself as Hello, my name is Cat, and I am Female. | |||
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"Mr Drakeford in this instance hasn't declared 'him'self to be Binary fluid or claim a gender identity in that regard. But he is talking about others that do and is in support of that. So 'He' remains 'Him' in all forms of address when talking about 'His' Gender Identity. So. 'Him'Self which means 'he' sits on the corresponds spectrum of traditional binary opposition of Male/Female - He/Him/She/Her. Obviously he isn't Female so to properly address him - even in a joke is 'Him'Self not 'Them'self. Hope this is clearer. Is that how it works then? So if I meet a person that looks male to me, it's OK for me to address them as 'he', and they have no right to be offended if it turns out that they consider themselves female. How about if I meet a person that looks male to me, but they're wearing a dress. Is it OK for me to address them as 'he', or should I take account of the ambiguity and call them 'they'?" You could simply stop worrying about it say hello, and continue with whatever you need to say. Calling anyone he / she / they to their face in conversation surely never happens? Referring to them after meeting them to another person you would.. | |||
"Mr Drakeford in this instance hasn't declared 'him'self to be Binary fluid or claim a gender identity in that regard. But he is talking about others that do and is in support of that. So 'He' remains 'Him' in all forms of address when talking about 'His' Gender Identity. So. 'Him'Self which means 'he' sits on the corresponds spectrum of traditional binary opposition of Male/Female - He/Him/She/Her. Obviously he isn't Female so to properly address him - even in a joke is 'Him'Self not 'Them'self. Hope this is clearer. Is that how it works then? So if I meet a person that looks male to me, it's OK for me to address them as 'he', and they have no right to be offended if it turns out that they consider themselves female. How about if I meet a person that looks male to me, but they're wearing a dress. Is it OK for me to address them as 'he', or should I take account of the ambiguity and call them 'they'? You could simply stop worrying about it say hello, and continue with whatever you need to say. Calling anyone he / she / they to their face in conversation surely never happens? Referring to them after meeting them to another person you would.. " Exactly. Hello, what's your name? Always works the best. Pinning labels on then dividing by how much we are offended is, sadly, the screwed up society in which we all currently live. | |||
"'They' is traditionally a third-person plural pronoun. It would be incorrect to use it when addressing a person directly." 'He' and 'she' are also third-person pronouns, and so equally incorrect to use when addressing a person directly. "The simple answer is to start at the corresponding traditional binary of he/him/she/her. If the person doesn't wish to be in that part of the traditional spectrum. Be sure that they will tell you." What a revolutionary idea, being allowed to make your own assessment, and expecting that no one will be offended if you get it wrong. "Why would anyone be offended when asking for clarity." I'm guessing that you haven't met any of the more assertive members of the trans community. "Pinning labels on then dividing by how much we are offended is, sadly, the screwed up society in which we all currently live." This aspect always confuses me. I see plenty of trans people telling us that we all have to be more inclusive and more understanding of differences, and then I see the same people insisting that everyone must be classified as either male or female and there can be no other options. | |||
"So, the esteemed Welsh leader, Mr Dripford, believes that men can self identify as transgender women. Does this mean that I won't be in trouble if I tell Dripford to "Go fuck himself"? Asking for a friend..... "With all due respect, why the fuck is it anything to do with you what somebody calls themselves when they are nothing to do with you, they live in a different country to you, you will never meet them, and if you did they would find you repulsive because of your opinion of them? Do I tell you what clothes you are allowed to wear, or how you are allowed to refer to yourself? How about you tell your "friend" to stfu, before every trans person on fab tells your friend to "go fuck himself". | |||
" 'He' and 'she' are also third-person pronouns, and so equally incorrect to use when addressing a person directly. " Yes. But whenever does anyone stand in front of anyone and say She/He while talking to them? Better to introduce yourself and use names. The simple answer is to start at the corresponding traditional binary of he/him/she/her. If the person doesn't wish to be in that part of the traditional spectrum. Be sure that they will tell you. " What a revolutionary idea, being allowed to make your own assessment, and expecting that no one " I have said before why make an assessment - just start talking and introduce yourself, it seems that you are interested enough to have an external opinion about a person but not a factual one. Why would anyone be offended when asking for clarity. " I'm guessing that you haven't met any of the more assertive members of the trans community. " I have literally run dozens of events that include the full spectrum of gender identities - I always find that once I have said hello and swapped names everything goes along as normally as any other I have with the people around me. Pinning labels on then dividing by how much we are offended is, sadly, the screwed up society in which we all currently live. " This aspect always confuses me. I see plenty of trans people telling us that we all have to be more inclusive and more understanding of differences, and then I see the same people insisting that everyone must be classified as either male or female and there can be no other options. " I have never seen a Trans gender person say that we all should be male or female. I have seen them ask that they be recognised for who they are in that moment. Once again. Stop guessing from the outside, then forming an opinion, say hello and be sure of the facts that are introduced to you. | |||
" 'He' and 'she' are also third-person pronouns, and so equally incorrect to use when addressing a person directly. " Yes. But whenever does anyone stand in front of anyone and say She/He while talking to them? Better to introduce yourself and use names. " What a revolutionary idea, being allowed to make your own assessment, and expecting that no one " I have said before why make an assessment - just start talking and introduce yourself, it seems that you are interested enough to have an external opinion about a person but not a factual one. " I'm guessing that you haven't met any of the more assertive members of the trans community. " I have literally run dozens of events that include the full spectrum of gender identities - I always find that once I have said hello and swapped names everything goes along as normally as any other I have with the people around me. " This aspect always confuses me. I see plenty of trans people telling us that we all have to be more inclusive and more understanding of differences, and then I see the same people insisting that everyone must be classified as either male or female and there can be no other options. " I have never seen a Trans gender person say that we all should be male or female. I have seen them ask that they be recognised for who they are in that moment. Once again. Stop guessing from the outside, then forming an opinion, say hello and be sure of the facts that are introduced to you. | |||
"I see plenty of trans people telling us that we all have to be more inclusive and more understanding of differences, and then I see the same people insisting that everyone must be classified as either male or female and there can be no other options." "I have never seen a Trans gender person say that we all should be male or female." I was thinking mostly of the current sport issue where a person that used to be a man, and is now a woman, insists that they be allowed to compete in women's sport as there can be no other options than male or female. But this getting far too serious for what started as a mild fun-poking at the idea that we can just ask, and the person won't be offended. I expect that works at swingers clubs, where sex and sexuality are obvious topics, but it doesn't go down so well in other places. So to get back to the topic, yes Mark Drakeford is obviously male, and I doubt that he'd disagree. But the idea that we can use our own judgement, and that the person involved will just politely correct us if we get it wrong, seems to be wishful thinking. | |||
"But the idea that we can use our own judgement, and that the person involved will just politely correct us if we get it wrong, seems to be wishful thinking." But it starts with You and Me. I don't wait to be corrected. I enquire. So. I'm going to leave this one here. Have a super weekend. | |||
