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HS2 To Manchester
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"Where are you getting this news?" Sky news | |||
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"Don't think anything has been announced yet. It would be much better to cancel the whole thing. White elephant project nobody wants, using Victorian technology." Levelling up the north. Remember those halcyon days? | |||
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"Where are you getting this news? Sky news " Cheers. Just read it. No information as of yet. Someone definitely did say this some time back, I remember. I also remember arguing against it but I'll happily say I was wrong if it turns out that way. | |||
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"Don't think anything has been announced yet. It would be much better to cancel the whole thing. White elephant project nobody wants, using Victorian technology. Levelling up the north. Remember those halcyon days? " And how exactly is HS2 supposed to do that? | |||
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"Don't think anything has been announced yet. It would be much better to cancel the whole thing. White elephant project nobody wants, using Victorian technology. Levelling up the north. Remember those halcyon days? And how exactly is HS2 supposed to do that?" By increasing capacity on the west coast mainline, providing opportunity to remove traffic (freight and passenger) from roads, and improving links between North and South. | |||
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"Don't think anything has been announced yet. It would be much better to cancel the whole thing. White elephant project nobody wants, using Victorian technology. Levelling up the north. Remember those halcyon days? And how exactly is HS2 supposed to do that? By increasing capacity on the west coast mainline, providing opportunity to remove traffic (freight and passenger) from roads, and improving links between North and South. " Capacity increases are needed to the local transport systems, and to links across the country. North South links are much less important. HS2 linked city centres so to use it would take longer than the existing infrastructure, even if we wanted to go to London (which we have no desire to). | |||
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"Don't think anything has been announced yet. It would be much better to cancel the whole thing. White elephant project nobody wants, using Victorian technology. Levelling up the north. Remember those halcyon days? And how exactly is HS2 supposed to do that? By increasing capacity on the west coast mainline, providing opportunity to remove traffic (freight and passenger) from roads, and improving links between North and South. Capacity increases are needed to the local transport systems, and to links across the country. North South links are much less important. HS2 linked city centres so to use it would take longer than the existing infrastructure, even if we wanted to go to London (which we have no desire to)." HS2 was meant to be part of broader strategy. All of which has or is being slowly whittled away. Had they started the project in the north, I guarantee they’d have seen it through to the end. No way they’d have thrown money at the north and not included London in it somehow. | |||
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"Don't think anything has been announced yet. It would be much better to cancel the whole thing. White elephant project nobody wants, using Victorian technology. Levelling up the north. Remember those halcyon days? And how exactly is HS2 supposed to do that? By increasing capacity on the west coast mainline, providing opportunity to remove traffic (freight and passenger) from roads, and improving links between North and South. Capacity increases are needed to the local transport systems, and to links across the country. North South links are much less important. HS2 linked city centres so to use it would take longer than the existing infrastructure, even if we wanted to go to London (which we have no desire to). HS2 was meant to be part of broader strategy. All of which has or is being slowly whittled away. Had they started the project in the north, I guarantee they’d have seen it through to the end. No way they’d have thrown money at the north and not included London in it somehow. " It was poor value at £30bn at over £100bn it is madness. | |||
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"Don't think anything has been announced yet. It would be much better to cancel the whole thing. White elephant project nobody wants, using Victorian technology. Levelling up the north. Remember those halcyon days? And how exactly is HS2 supposed to do that? By increasing capacity on the west coast mainline, providing opportunity to remove traffic (freight and passenger) from roads, and improving links between North and South. Capacity increases are needed to the local transport systems, and to links across the country. North South links are much less important. HS2 linked city centres so to use it would take longer than the existing infrastructure, even if we wanted to go to London (which we have no desire to). HS2 was meant to be part of broader strategy. All of which has or is being slowly whittled away. Had they started the project in the north, I guarantee they’d have seen it through to the end. No way they’d have thrown money at the north and not included London in it somehow. It was poor value at £30bn at over £100bn it is madness." Yeah that's about the annual cost of brexit to the economy. At least for that one unit of brexit, we actually get a Trainline. | |||
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"Had they started the project in the north, I guarantee they’d have seen it through to the end. No way they’d have thrown money at the north and not included London in it somehow." This is the big mistake they made. Had the line begun in the north it would have been easier to build, and there would have been fewer objections when it came time to do the London connection. | |||
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"Good it was never wanted or needed up north id rather be able to get to Manchester or Newcastle than London for which i would have had to travel miles to catch instead of my local station on the same line " I don’t think it was intended for your personal convenience  | |||
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"Do you think us Northerners will get all our potholes filled in now instead ? Plus rural buses maybe ? " No, the money will get diverted to London. | |||
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"Downing Street have just said "no decision has been made yet". They must be waiting til they are safely out of Manchester before announcing it. " Why? It is not needed. The only northerner I know who supports it is Andy Burnham, the mayor of Greater Manchester. Most others would applaud the cancellation. | |||
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"Downing Street have just said "no decision has been made yet". They must be waiting til they are safely out of Manchester before announcing it. " So it's not being cancelled as things stand? The OP was pretty sure, I'd say gleefully, that it was. | |||
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"Downing Street have just said "no decision has been made yet". They must be waiting til they are safely out of Manchester before announcing it. So it's not being cancelled as things stand? The OP was pretty sure, I'd say gleefully, that it was." The OP is certain. | |||
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"Downing Street have just said "no decision has been made yet". They must be waiting til they are safely out of Manchester before announcing it. So it's not being cancelled as things stand? The OP was pretty sure, I'd say gleefully, that it was. The OP is certain. " That's why I asked. You're certain but no one is reporting it with certainty. You now just said a pushback, not a cancellation. I don't have any other information. | |||
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"Downing Street have just said "no decision has been made yet". They must be waiting til they are safely out of Manchester before announcing it. So it's not being cancelled as things stand? The OP was pretty sure, I'd say gleefully, that it was. The OP is certain. That's why I asked. You're certain but no one is reporting it with certainty. You now just said a pushback, not a cancellation. I don't have any other information. " It’ll be cancelled. The tories will (possibly) say it’s been pushed back to limit the egg on their face. They may well announce the cancellation now that the story is out there. Not everything gets released to the media. | |||
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"Downing Street have just said "no decision has been made yet". They must be waiting til they are safely out of Manchester before announcing it. So it's not being cancelled as things stand? The OP was pretty sure, I'd say gleefully, that it was. The OP is certain. That's why I asked. You're certain but no one is reporting it with certainty. You now just said a pushback, not a cancellation. I don't have any other information. It’ll be cancelled. The tories will (possibly) say it’s been pushed back to limit the egg on their face. They may well announce the cancellation now that the story is out there. Not everything gets released to the media. " But no actual confirmation? Why the sensationalism in the OP? All I'm asking for is something that can be confirmed. | |||
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"I hope we end up with HS2 as close to the original plan as possible - we need more rail, not less - but it’s increasingly obvious that the tories have no intention of delivering it. I hope Labour pick the plan up, as I said." FFS mate, can I just get a straight answer. Has it been confirmed that said leg will be cancelled? It would make much more sense for a delay and leave it in Labour's hands. | |||
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"Downing Street have just said "no decision has been made yet". They must be waiting til they are safely out of Manchester before announcing it. So it's not being cancelled as things stand? The OP was pretty sure, I'd say gleefully, that it was. The OP is certain. That's why I asked. You're certain but no one is reporting it with certainty. You now just said a pushback, not a cancellation. I don't have any other information. It’ll be cancelled. The tories will (possibly) say it’s been pushed back to limit the egg on their face. They may well announce the cancellation now that the story is out there. Not everything gets released to the media. But no actual confirmation? Why the sensationalism in the OP? All I'm asking for is something that can be confirmed." Well you’ll have to wait to see what Mr Sunak says, if you must. But like I said, the northern branch to Manchester will go the same way as the Birmingham-Leeds section. | |||
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"I hope we end up with HS2 as close to the original plan as possible - we need more rail, not less - but it’s increasingly obvious that the tories have no intention of delivering it. I hope Labour pick the plan up, as I said. FFS mate, can I just get a straight answer. Has it been confirmed that said leg will be cancelled? It would make much more sense for a delay and leave it in Labour's hands. " I’ve given you a straight answer. It. Will. Be. Cancelled. | |||
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"I hope we end up with HS2 as close to the original plan as possible - we need more rail, not less - but it’s increasingly obvious that the tories have no intention of delivering it. I hope Labour pick the plan up, as I said. FFS mate, can I just get a straight answer. Has it been confirmed that said leg will be cancelled? It would make much more sense for a delay and leave it in Labour's hands. I’ve given you a straight answer. It. Will. Be. Cancelled." That's not the question I asked. It's actually a really simple question. There can only be one reason you don't want to answer. | |||
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"I hope we end up with HS2 as close to the original plan as possible - we need more rail, not less - but it’s increasingly obvious that the tories have no intention of delivering it. I hope Labour pick the plan up, as I said. FFS mate, can I just get a straight answer. Has it been confirmed that said leg will be cancelled? It would make much more sense for a delay and leave it in Labour's hands. I’ve given you a straight answer. It. Will. Be. Cancelled. That's not the question I asked. It's actually a really simple question. There can only be one reason you don't want to answer. " Hey, this is going the same way as the last time I told you it would be cancelled. That’s ok though, I know there’s no possible way that I could have some information about the industry I work in that the media don’t have access to…. | |||
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"I hope we end up with HS2 as close to the original plan as possible - we need more rail, not less - but it’s increasingly obvious that the tories have no intention of delivering it. I hope Labour pick the plan up, as I said. FFS mate, can I just get a straight answer. Has it been confirmed that said leg will be cancelled? It would make much more sense for a delay and leave it in Labour's hands. I’ve given you a straight answer. It. Will. Be. Cancelled. That's not the question I asked. It's actually a really simple question. There can only be one reason you don't want to answer. Hey, this is going the same way as the last time I told you it would be cancelled. That’s ok though, I know there’s no possible way that I could have some information about the industry I work in that the media don’t have access to…." Will you answer the simple question? This one is actually much easier, only yes/no required. | |||
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"I hope we end up with HS2 as close to the original plan as possible - we need more rail, not less - but it’s increasingly obvious that the tories have no intention of delivering it. I hope Labour pick the plan up, as I said. FFS mate, can I just get a straight answer. Has it been confirmed that said leg will be cancelled? It would make much more sense for a delay and leave it in Labour's hands. I’ve given you a straight answer. It. Will. Be. Cancelled. That's not the question I asked. It's actually a really simple question. There can only be one reason you don't want to answer. Hey, this is going the same way as the last time I told you it would be cancelled. That’s ok though, I know there’s no possible way that I could have some information about the industry I work in that the media don’t have access to…. Will you answer the simple question? This one is actually much easier, only yes/no required." I’ve answered your question. You don’t accept my answer because the govt have gone turtle on the subject. The northern leg of HS2 is an ex-parrot. | |||
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"I hope we end up with HS2 as close to the original plan as possible - we need more rail, not less - but it’s increasingly obvious that the tories have no intention of delivering it. I hope Labour pick the plan up, as I said. FFS mate, can I just get a straight answer. Has it been confirmed that said leg will be cancelled? It would make much more sense for a delay and leave it in Labour's hands. I’ve given you a straight answer. It. Will. Be. Cancelled. That's not the question I asked. It's actually a really simple question. There can only be one reason you don't want to answer. Hey, this is going the same way as the last time I told you it would be cancelled. That’s ok though, I know there’s no possible way that I could have some information about the industry I work in that the media don’t have access to…. Will you answer the simple question? This one is actually much easier, only yes/no required. I’ve answered your question. You don’t accept my answer because the govt have gone turtle on the subject. The northern leg of HS2 is an ex-parrot. " You have not answered my question. I'm out. I'll come back when confirmation has been given. | |||
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"I hope we end up with HS2 as close to the original plan as possible - we need more rail, not less - but it’s increasingly obvious that the tories have no intention of delivering it. I hope Labour pick the plan up, as I said. FFS mate, can I just get a straight answer. Has it been confirmed that said leg will be cancelled? It would make much more sense for a delay and leave it in Labour's hands. I’ve given you a straight answer. It. Will. Be. Cancelled. That's not the question I asked. It's actually a really simple question. There can only be one reason you don't want to answer. Hey, this is going the same way as the last time I told you it would be cancelled. That’s ok though, I know there’s no possible way that I could have some information about the industry I work in that the media don’t have access to…. Will you answer the simple question? This one is actually much easier, only yes/no required. I’ve answered your question. You don’t accept my answer because the govt have gone turtle on the subject. The northern leg of HS2 is an ex-parrot. You have not answered my question. I'm out. I'll come back when confirmation has been given. " You can come back when the Birmingham - Manchester line is complete | |||
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"I hope we end up with HS2 as close to the original plan as possible - we need more rail, not less - but it’s increasingly obvious that the tories have no intention of delivering it. I hope Labour pick the plan up, as I said. FFS mate, can I just get a straight answer. Has it been confirmed that said leg will be cancelled? It would make much more sense for a delay and leave it in Labour's hands. I’ve given you a straight answer. It. Will. Be. Cancelled. That's not the question I asked. It's actually a really simple question. There can only be one reason you don't want to answer. Hey, this is going the same way as the last time I told you it would be cancelled. That’s ok though, I know there’s no possible way that I could have some information about the industry I work in that the media don’t have access to…. Will you answer the simple question? This one is actually much easier, only yes/no required. I’ve answered your question. You don’t accept my answer because the govt have gone turtle on the subject. The northern leg of HS2 is an ex-parrot. You have not answered my question. I'm out. I'll come back when confirmation has been given. " I now a crane driver on the construction of the project and he has now been moved to another job first time since he started in London an headed north. | |||
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"They absolutely missed a trick with HS2… people in the south didn’t want it.. but people in the north did.. Should have built it from the north down rather than the south up! Should have basically built it in a “u” shape… Glasgow/ Manchester/leeds/york/newcastle/edinburgh… with minor offshoots to Liverpool/Sheffield and hull In you link up all the big northern cities… screw the south!!" But on this small island is there room for all that track. | |||
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"They absolutely missed a trick with HS2… people in the south didn’t want it.. but people in the north did.. Should have built it from the north down rather than the south up! Should have basically built it in a “u” shape… Glasgow/ Manchester/leeds/york/newcastle/edinburgh… with minor offshoots to Liverpool/Sheffield and hull In you link up all the big northern cities… screw the south!! But on this small island is there room for all that track." The rail network now is tiny compared to what it was pre-beeching. | |||
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"They absolutely missed a trick with HS2… people in the south didn’t want it.. but people in the north did.. Should have built it from the north down rather than the south up! Should have basically built it in a “u” shape… Glasgow/ Manchester/leeds/york/newcastle/edinburgh… with minor offshoots to Liverpool/Sheffield and hull In you link up all the big northern cities… screw the south!! But on this small island is there room for all that track. The rail network now is tiny compared to what it was pre-beeching." Agreed but that land is now full of homes new lines mean flattering housing should it be if the government flatern a home they should build 2 or just plough through where these projects need the land linking City's will mean housing will be flattered to make way. | |||
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"I argued years ago on here, that this project would run into serious trouble. Costs spiralled from day one, and continue to do so. This was a 'get rich quick' scheme for many, and there was no apparent public accountability. Even the first executives that left, got huge payouts. " People love to talk about corruption in developing countries. But the English make the rest of the world look like amateurs. | |||
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"The real Northern leg has already been cancelled " Even if they built it the drivers would be on strike 2 days every 14. | |||
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"They absolutely missed a trick with HS2… people in the south didn’t want it.. but people in the north did.. Should have built it from the north down rather than the south up! Should have basically built it in a “u” shape… Glasgow/ Manchester/leeds/york/newcastle/edinburgh… with minor offshoots to Liverpool/Sheffield and hull In you link up all the big northern cities… screw the south!! But on this small island is there room for all that track. The rail network now is tiny compared to what it was pre-beeching." Yer lack of drivers so pointless. Ig guess you don't remember steam on the old brunch lines pre Beeching cuts. But has the running cost of them lines helped the railway service. My station still looks like I'd did when steam trains ran through. | |||
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"The real Northern leg has already been cancelled Even if they built it the drivers would be on strike 2 days every 14." . ;, why ? | |||
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"The real Northern leg has already been cancelled Even if they built it the drivers would be on strike 2 days every 14.. ;, why ?" Well there on strike this week ant thay. | |||
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"Don't think anything has been announced yet. It would be much better to cancel the whole thing. White elephant project nobody wants, using Victorian technology. Levelling up the north. Remember those halcyon days? And how exactly is HS2 supposed to do that? By increasing capacity on the west coast mainline, providing opportunity to remove traffic (freight and passenger) from roads, and improving links between North and South. Capacity increases are needed to the local transport systems, and to links across the country. North South links are much less important. HS2 linked city centres so to use it would take longer than the existing infrastructure, even if we wanted to go to London (which we have no desire to). HS2 was meant to be part of broader strategy. All of which has or is being slowly whittled away. Had they started the project in the north, I guarantee they’d have seen it through to the end. No way they’d have thrown money at the north and not included London in it somehow. " That was discussed on Question Time. | |||
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"The real Northern leg has already been cancelled Even if they built it the drivers would be on strike 2 days every 14.. ;, why ? Well there on strike this week ant thay." . ;,, but why are they on strike ? | |||
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"The real Northern leg has already been cancelled Even if they built it the drivers would be on strike 2 days every 14.. ;, why ? Well there on strike this week ant thay.. ;,, but why are they on strike ? " Political strikes to damage the government and try to usher in their Labour lapdogs. Train drivers are way over paid anyway. Can't quite understand why there is such a push to self driving cars when trains are much easier to convert. | |||
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"The real Northern leg has already been cancelled Even if they built it the drivers would be on strike 2 days every 14.. ;, why ? Well there on strike this week ant thay.. ;,, but why are they on strike ? Political strikes to damage the government and try to usher in their Labour lapdogs. Train drivers are way over paid anyway. Can't quite understand why there is such a push to self driving cars when trains are much easier to convert." Trajan aren’t easy to convert to automation at all. And they’re very expensive to do so, and they’ll still have an operator onboard that will still be safety critical and require a decent salary. And by what metric do you call train drivers overpaid? What do you know of the role? | |||
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"The real Northern leg has already been cancelled Even if they built it the drivers would be on strike 2 days every 14.. ;, why ? Well there on strike this week ant thay.. ;,, but why are they on strike ? Political strikes to damage the government and try to usher in their Labour lapdogs. Train drivers are way over paid anyway. Can't quite understand why there is such a push to self driving cars when trains are much easier to convert. Trajan aren’t easy to convert to automation at all. And they’re very expensive to do so, and they’ll still have an operator onboard that will still be safety critical and require a decent salary. And by what metric do you call train drivers overpaid? What do you know of the role?" I wouldn't say overpaid but they do earn a decent wage. The highest in Europe I believe. How are drivers paid? Is it banded? | |||
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"So the Birmingham - Manchester link of HS2 is to be cancelled. I *think* someone in this forum predicted that would happen." "Where are you getting this news?" "Sky news" So, I've learnt that Sky News is not a particularly reliable source of factual information. Thanks for that. | |||
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"So the Birmingham - Manchester link of HS2 is to be cancelled. I *think* someone in this forum predicted that would happen. Where are you getting this news? Sky news So, I've learnt that Sky News is not a particularly reliable source of factual information. Thanks for that." They were first with the news yesterday, when I started with the thread, that’s all. | |||
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"The real Northern leg has already been cancelled Even if they built it the drivers would be on strike 2 days every 14.. ;, why ? Well there on strike this week ant thay.. ;,, but why are they on strike ? Political strikes to damage the government and try to usher in their Labour lapdogs. Train drivers are way over paid anyway. Can't quite understand why there is such a push to self driving cars when trains are much easier to convert. Trajan aren’t easy to convert to automation at all. And they’re very expensive to do so, and they’ll still have an operator onboard that will still be safety critical and require a decent salary. And by what metric do you call train drivers overpaid? What do you know of the role? I wouldn't say overpaid but they do earn a decent wage. The highest in Europe I believe. How are drivers paid? Is it banded? " Not to any great extent. I can only speak for my company where trainees have a rate, then newly qualified drivers (for the first two years) are on a rate lower than the ‘experienced’ drivers. (A recent change and something I disagree with but that’s by the by) | |||
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"The real Northern leg has already been cancelled Even if they built it the drivers would be on strike 2 days every 14.. ;, why ? Well there on strike this week ant thay.. ;,, but why are they on strike ? Political strikes to damage the government and try to usher in their Labour lapdogs. Train drivers are way over paid anyway. Can't quite understand why there is such a push to self driving cars when trains are much easier to convert. Trajan aren’t easy to convert to automation at all. And they’re very expensive to do so, and they’ll still have an operator onboard that will still be safety critical and require a decent salary. And by what metric do you call train drivers overpaid? What do you know of the role? I wouldn't say overpaid but they do earn a decent wage. The highest in Europe I believe. How are drivers paid? Is it banded? Not to any great extent. I can only speak for my company where trainees have a rate, then newly qualified drivers (for the first two years) are on a rate lower than the ‘experienced’ drivers. (A recent change and something I disagree with but that’s by the by)" So effectively, after 2 years, train drivers will earn circa. 60k salary? How long is the training and what is the trainee salary? | |||
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"How can a project 1st quoted/budgeted for £25-30billion then rise over 3 times to nearly £100billion and not be at least questioned. All these people saying "oh yes let's just crack on" Jesus...its all OK when it's the government/tax money... I'm self employed and if I increased my quote to my customer during the course of the job I know exactly what would happen .. and quite right too. Like the country can afford to shell out £100 billion love it's just pocket money. I live in the North..and yes we need investment but not this dead duck. " Totally agree it is shocking. There will be several reasons, in no order: - Optimism Bias (the business case was overly optimistic and didn’t budget sufficiently to account for risks and issues - happens all the time). - Suppliers underquoted to win the job knowing that once they were underway they could wrap things up in change control nightmare to extract the actual amount of money needed (happens all the time). - The suppliers in the construction industry are donors to the Tory party and can use that to leverage/lobby Ministers to ensure pet (gravy train) projects continue. - The usual big consultancies are all over HS2 and have a business model based on extending their billable hours by identifying problems that they can then offer to fix and the creation of unnecessary work packages thst add little real value but eat up time/money (happens all the time). - The Civil Service no longer pays industry leading rates for specialist skills (it did in the 2000s) meaning that oversight is weaker and less experienced and relies too heavily on suppliers and consultants who have a vested interest to prolong/expand projects (happens all the time). | |||
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"The real Northern leg has already been cancelled Even if they built it the drivers would be on strike 2 days every 14.. ;, why ? Well there on strike this week ant thay.. ;,, but why are they on strike ? Political strikes to damage the government and try to usher in their Labour lapdogs. Train drivers are way over paid anyway. Can't quite understand why there is such a push to self driving cars when trains are much easier to convert. Trajan aren’t easy to convert to automation at all. And they’re very expensive to do so, and they’ll still have an operator onboard that will still be safety critical and require a decent salary. And by what metric do you call train drivers overpaid? What do you know of the role? I wouldn't say overpaid but they do earn a decent wage. The highest in Europe I believe. How are drivers paid? Is it banded? Not to any great extent. I can only speak for my company where trainees have a rate, then newly qualified drivers (for the first two years) are on a rate lower than the ‘experienced’ drivers. (A recent change and something I disagree with but that’s by the by) So effectively, after 2 years, train drivers will earn circa. 60k salary? How long is the training and what is the trainee salary?" The training is a year. I think the trainees are on around 24k or thereabouts. | |||
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"The real Northern leg has already been cancelled Even if they built it the drivers would be on strike 2 days every 14.. ;, why ? Well there on strike this week ant thay.. ;,, but why are they on strike ? Political strikes to damage the government and try to usher in their Labour lapdogs. Train drivers are way over paid anyway. Can't quite understand why there is such a push to self driving cars when trains are much easier to convert. Trajan aren’t easy to convert to automation at all. And they’re very expensive to do so, and they’ll still have an operator onboard that will still be safety critical and require a decent salary. And by what metric do you call train drivers overpaid? What do you know of the role? I wouldn't say overpaid but they do earn a decent wage. The highest in Europe I believe. How are drivers paid? Is it banded? Not to any great extent. I can only speak for my company where trainees have a rate, then newly qualified drivers (for the first two years) are on a rate lower than the ‘experienced’ drivers. (A recent change and something I disagree with but that’s by the by) So effectively, after 2 years, train drivers will earn circa. 60k salary? How long is the training and what is the trainee salary?" Bloody nora, I need out of the NHS | |||
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"The real Northern leg has already been cancelled Even if they built it the drivers would be on strike 2 days every 14.. ;, why ? Well there on strike this week ant thay.. ;,, but why are they on strike ? Political strikes to damage the government and try to usher in their Labour lapdogs. Train drivers are way over paid anyway. Can't quite understand why there is such a push to self driving cars when trains are much easier to convert. Trajan aren’t easy to convert to automation at all. And they’re very expensive to do so, and they’ll still have an operator onboard that will still be safety critical and require a decent salary. And by what metric do you call train drivers overpaid? What do you know of the role? I wouldn't say overpaid but they do earn a decent wage. The highest in Europe I believe. How are drivers paid? Is it banded? Not to any great extent. I can only speak for my company where trainees have a rate, then newly qualified drivers (for the first two years) are on a rate lower than the ‘experienced’ drivers. (A recent change and something I disagree with but that’s by the by) So effectively, after 2 years, train drivers will earn circa. 60k salary? How long is the training and what is the trainee salary? Bloody nora, I need out of the NHS " Same advice I give everyone - get an application in. It’s shit hours. Hard work. Immense responsibility. But it’s well paid, decent time off, and a good career that’s given me everything I have. Pisses me off when people talk my industry down and tell me how easy and cushy it is, from their position of ignorance. | |||
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"The Independent reckons it'll be shelved for seven years" That’ll be the line they give, yes. I hope it does simply get shelved, that way Labour can pick it back up again. The tories have no intention of completing the job. | |||
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"The real Northern leg has already been cancelled Even if they built it the drivers would be on strike 2 days every 14.. ;, why ? Well there on strike this week ant thay.. ;,, but why are they on strike ? Political strikes to damage the government and try to usher in their Labour lapdogs. Train drivers are way over paid anyway. Can't quite understand why there is such a push to self driving cars when trains are much easier to convert. Trajan aren’t easy to convert to automation at all. And they’re very expensive to do so, and they’ll still have an operator onboard that will still be safety critical and require a decent salary. And by what metric do you call train drivers overpaid? What do you know of the role?" So, in comparison to cars, trains follow a defined route on tracks. There are sensors and signals on the tracks. The tracks are private so there are few trespassers. Cars have to negotiate a huge variety of roads, full of random people and objects. Therefore, as an Engineer, trains must be easier to automate. Train drivers must keep awake, keep the train at an appropriate speed (following sognals), and be trained to deal with emergencies. Not difficult, and certainly not worth £60k plus per annum. And why is an operator required? Trains could be entirely unmanned. | |||
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"The real Northern leg has already been cancelled Even if they built it the drivers would be on strike 2 days every 14.. ;, why ? Well there on strike this week ant thay.. ;,, but why are they on strike ? Political strikes to damage the government and try to usher in their Labour lapdogs. Train drivers are way over paid anyway. Can't quite understand why there is such a push to self driving cars when trains are much easier to convert. Trajan aren’t easy to convert to automation at all. And they’re very expensive to do so, and they’ll still have an operator onboard that will still be safety critical and require a decent salary. And by what metric do you call train drivers overpaid? What do you know of the role? So, in comparison to cars, trains follow a defined route on tracks. There are sensors and signals on the tracks. The tracks are private so there are few trespassers. Cars have to negotiate a huge variety of roads, full of random people and objects. Therefore, as an Engineer, trains must be easier to automate. Train drivers must keep awake, keep the train at an appropriate speed (following sognals), and be trained to deal with emergencies. Not difficult, and certainly not worth £60k plus per annum. And why is an operator required? Trains could be entirely unmanned." How many trains have you driven? What’s your knowledge of the industry? | |||
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"The real Northern leg has already been cancelled Even if they built it the drivers would be on strike 2 days every 14.. ;, why ? Well there on strike this week ant thay.. ;,, but why are they on strike ? Political strikes to damage the government and try to usher in their Labour lapdogs. Train drivers are way over paid anyway. Can't quite understand why there is such a push to self driving cars when trains are much easier to convert. Trajan aren’t easy to convert to automation at all. And they’re very expensive to do so, and they’ll still have an operator onboard that will still be safety critical and require a decent salary. And by what metric do you call train drivers overpaid? What do you know of the role? So, in comparison to cars, trains follow a defined route on tracks. There are sensors and signals on the tracks. The tracks are private so there are few trespassers. Cars have to negotiate a huge variety of roads, full of random people and objects. Therefore, as an Engineer, trains must be easier to automate. Train drivers must keep awake, keep the train at an appropriate speed (following sognals), and be trained to deal with emergencies. Not difficult, and certainly not worth £60k plus per annum. And why is an operator required? Trains could be entirely unmanned." We have rail infrastructure in the U.K which varies between literally Victorian semaphore signalling to 21st century in-cab signalling (which still isn’t top level and driverless ready) We have mainline traction in this country which dates from the mid-20th century to brand new tech. None of which is driverless ready. We have hundreds of thousands of points where the public infrastructure meets the railway. Level crossings, footpaths. Etc. all locally monitored or at best controlled by a signal box with no interaction with the train beyond a signal protecting it in some cases (far from all). The fact that you think a driver needs to stay awake and follow signals is indicative of your lack of knowledge - I forgive that because if you don’t work in the industry then you have no way of knowing the complexities of the drivers role - particularly when things go wrong. The drivers rule boom (updated twice annually) is a hefty tome. As are the local operating instructions and company appendices. And if you think trains can be entirely unmanned, imagine two trains with no staff onboard, each with between 500-1000 people crashing into one another. Who’s in charge? The railway could be automated, you’re right. It would take decades, cost billions (would make HS2 look like chump change), cause engineering carnage across the country and still require a highly paid professional at the pointy end. | |||
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"The real Northern leg has already been cancelled Even if they built it the drivers would be on strike 2 days every 14.. ;, why ? Well there on strike this week ant thay.. ;,, but why are they on strike ? Political strikes to damage the government and try to usher in their Labour lapdogs. Train drivers are way over paid anyway. Can't quite understand why there is such a push to self driving cars when trains are much easier to convert. Trajan aren’t easy to convert to automation at all. And they’re very expensive to do so, and they’ll still have an operator onboard that will still be safety critical and require a decent salary. And by what metric do you call train drivers overpaid? What do you know of the role? So, in comparison to cars, trains follow a defined route on tracks. There are sensors and signals on the tracks. The tracks are private so there are few trespassers. Cars have to negotiate a huge variety of roads, full of random people and objects. Therefore, as an Engineer, trains must be easier to automate. Train drivers must keep awake, keep the train at an appropriate speed (following sognals), and be trained to deal with emergencies. Not difficult, and certainly not worth £60k plus per annum. And why is an operator required? Trains could be entirely unmanned. How many trains have you driven? What’s your knowledge of the industry?" So, why are train drivers and operatives needed? Why are they worth £60k pa? Why is it difficult to automate the railway? | |||
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"The real Northern leg has already been cancelled Even if they built it the drivers would be on strike 2 days every 14.. ;, why ? Well there on strike this week ant thay.. ;,, but why are they on strike ? Political strikes to damage the government and try to usher in their Labour lapdogs. Train drivers are way over paid anyway. Can't quite understand why there is such a push to self driving cars when trains are much easier to convert. Trajan aren’t easy to convert to automation at all. And they’re very expensive to do so, and they’ll still have an operator onboard that will still be safety critical and require a decent salary. And by what metric do you call train drivers overpaid? What do you know of the role? So, in comparison to cars, trains follow a defined route on tracks. There are sensors and signals on the tracks. The tracks are private so there are few trespassers. Cars have to negotiate a huge variety of roads, full of random people and objects. Therefore, as an Engineer, trains must be easier to automate. Train drivers must keep awake, keep the train at an appropriate speed (following sognals), and be trained to deal with emergencies. Not difficult, and certainly not worth £60k plus per annum. And why is an operator required? Trains could be entirely unmanned. How many trains have you driven? What’s your knowledge of the industry? So, why are train drivers and operatives needed? Why are they worth £60k pa? Why is it difficult to automate the railway?" Explained above. As I say, most people don’t understand the complexities of the role and the operational railway as a whole. I understand that because I wouldn’t know how complex someone else’s job is either. That’s why I don’t go round saying other people’s jobs are easy and could be automated at the click of a finger. | |||
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"Automated mainline railways will never happen. If someone steps out in front of a train, then who puts the emergency brake in? If a technical fault occurs, who sorts it out? You may get a level of automation on short and enclosed railway systems. Docklands Light Railway and Vancouver Skytrain are examples." Yeah absolutely, light rail and underground systems are easily automated - portions of London Underground already are (and still have operators in-cab for safety). Mainline rail is a very different beast. | |||
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" If someone steps out in front of a train, then who puts the emergency brake in?" Exactly the same technology as is being developed for self driving cars, only easier as trains are confined to tracks. Technical faults have to be minimised by proper maintenance. In reality, how many faults can be fixed by the driver? Minor faults mean the train could continue at reduced speed anyway. Major faults anythe train is stopped anyway. The only reason trains have not been automated is due to protectionist policies by agressive unions trying to maintain legacy working practices. | |||
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"The real Northern leg has already been cancelled Even if they built it the drivers would be on strike 2 days every 14.. ;, why ? Well there on strike this week ant thay.. ;,, but why are they on strike ? Political strikes to damage the government and try to usher in their Labour lapdogs. Train drivers are way over paid anyway. Can't quite understand why there is such a push to self driving cars when trains are much easier to convert. Trajan aren’t easy to convert to automation at all. And they’re very expensive to do so, and they’ll still have an operator onboard that will still be safety critical and require a decent salary. And by what metric do you call train drivers overpaid? What do you know of the role? I wouldn't say overpaid but they do earn a decent wage. The highest in Europe I believe. How are drivers paid? Is it banded? Not to any great extent. I can only speak for my company where trainees have a rate, then newly qualified drivers (for the first two years) are on a rate lower than the ‘experienced’ drivers. (A recent change and something I disagree with but that’s by the by) So effectively, after 2 years, train drivers will earn circa. 60k salary? How long is the training and what is the trainee salary? The training is a year. I think the trainees are on around 24k or thereabouts. " I'm not mocking a drivers responsibilities or anything like that but say 40k? within a year and 60k after a further 2 is seriously good money. | |||
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" If someone steps out in front of a train, then who puts the emergency brake in? Exactly the same technology as is being developed for self driving cars, only easier as trains are confined to tracks. Technical faults have to be minimised by proper maintenance. In reality, how many faults can be fixed by the driver? Minor faults mean the train could continue at reduced speed anyway. Major faults anythe train is stopped anyway. The only reason trains have not been automated is due to protectionist policies by agressive unions trying to maintain legacy working practices." So you’ve got a train full of people with a major fault, in the middle of nowhere. Nobody on board. What now? Have you ever dealt with a stranded train full of people? Know how long it takes before they start trying to egress doors and smash windows? Not to mention the other trains in the area that have now stopped for apparently no reason. They’re full of passengers too. They’ve got nobody on board updating them or assisting them with their queries What now? | |||
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"The real Northern leg has already been cancelled Even if they built it the drivers would be on strike 2 days every 14.. ;, why ? Well there on strike this week ant thay.. ;,, but why are they on strike ? Political strikes to damage the government and try to usher in their Labour lapdogs. Train drivers are way over paid anyway. Can't quite understand why there is such a push to self driving cars when trains are much easier to convert. Trajan aren’t easy to convert to automation at all. And they’re very expensive to do so, and they’ll still have an operator onboard that will still be safety critical and require a decent salary. And by what metric do you call train drivers overpaid? What do you know of the role? I wouldn't say overpaid but they do earn a decent wage. The highest in Europe I believe. How are drivers paid? Is it banded? Not to any great extent. I can only speak for my company where trainees have a rate, then newly qualified drivers (for the first two years) are on a rate lower than the ‘experienced’ drivers. (A recent change and something I disagree with but that’s by the by) So effectively, after 2 years, train drivers will earn circa. 60k salary? How long is the training and what is the trainee salary? The training is a year. I think the trainees are on around 24k or thereabouts. I'm not mocking a drivers responsibilities or anything like that but say 40k? within a year and 60k after a further 2 is seriously good money. " I don’t think anyone has suggested it isn’t good money. I certainly haven’t. It’s not as good as it was 4 years ago when the last pay deal was negotiated though. And assuming the deal ends up being around 5% (that’s the figure bandied about as acceptable) then in real-terms drivers are still not as well off as they were in 2019. | |||
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"The real Northern leg has already been cancelled Even if they built it the drivers would be on strike 2 days every 14.. ;, why ? Well there on strike this week ant thay.. ;,, but why are they on strike ? Political strikes to damage the government and try to usher in their Labour lapdogs. Train drivers are way over paid anyway. Can't quite understand why there is such a push to self driving cars when trains are much easier to convert. Trajan aren’t easy to convert to automation at all. And they’re very expensive to do so, and they’ll still have an operator onboard that will still be safety critical and require a decent salary. And by what metric do you call train drivers overpaid? What do you know of the role? I wouldn't say overpaid but they do earn a decent wage. The highest in Europe I believe. How are drivers paid? Is it banded? Not to any great extent. I can only speak for my company where trainees have a rate, then newly qualified drivers (for the first two years) are on a rate lower than the ‘experienced’ drivers. (A recent change and something I disagree with but that’s by the by) So effectively, after 2 years, train drivers will earn circa. 60k salary? How long is the training and what is the trainee salary? The training is a year. I think the trainees are on around 24k or thereabouts. I'm not mocking a drivers responsibilities or anything like that but say 40k? within a year and 60k after a further 2 is seriously good money. I don’t think anyone has suggested it isn’t good money. I certainly haven’t. It’s not as good as it was 4 years ago when the last pay deal was negotiated though. And assuming the deal ends up being around 5% (that’s the figure bandied about as acceptable) then in real-terms drivers are still not as well off as they were in 2019." That last pay deal was said to be 28% over 4 years, is that correct? | |||
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"The real Northern leg has already been cancelled Even if they built it the drivers would be on strike 2 days every 14.. ;, why ? Well there on strike this week ant thay.. ;,, but why are they on strike ? Political strikes to damage the government and try to usher in their Labour lapdogs. Train drivers are way over paid anyway. Can't quite understand why there is such a push to self driving cars when trains are much easier to convert. Trajan aren’t easy to convert to automation at all. And they’re very expensive to do so, and they’ll still have an operator onboard that will still be safety critical and require a decent salary. And by what metric do you call train drivers overpaid? What do you know of the role? I wouldn't say overpaid but they do earn a decent wage. The highest in Europe I believe. How are drivers paid? Is it banded? Not to any great extent. I can only speak for my company where trainees have a rate, then newly qualified drivers (for the first two years) are on a rate lower than the ‘experienced’ drivers. (A recent change and something I disagree with but that’s by the by) So effectively, after 2 years, train drivers will earn circa. 60k salary? How long is the training and what is the trainee salary? The training is a year. I think the trainees are on around 24k or thereabouts. I'm not mocking a drivers responsibilities or anything like that but say 40k? within a year and 60k after a further 2 is seriously good money. I don’t think anyone has suggested it isn’t good money. I certainly haven’t. It’s not as good as it was 4 years ago when the last pay deal was negotiated though. And assuming the deal ends up being around 5% (that’s the figure bandied about as acceptable) then in real-terms drivers are still not as well off as they were in 2019. That last pay deal was said to be 28% over 4 years, is that correct?" The last tranche of pay deals were individual TOCS negotiated with their own staff. There hasn’t been a national pay deal done in decades. My company certainly didn’t pay 28% over 4 years - I’ve only ever seen 2 year deals negotiated. I’m not sure where that figure came from, but it’s bollocks. | |||
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" If someone steps out in front of a train, then who puts the emergency brake in? Exactly the same technology as is being developed for self driving cars, only easier as trains are confined to tracks. Technical faults have to be minimised by proper maintenance. In reality, how many faults can be fixed by the driver? Minor faults mean the train could continue at reduced speed anyway. Major faults anythe train is stopped anyway. The only reason trains have not been automated is due to protectionist policies by agressive unions trying to maintain legacy working practices. So you’ve got a train full of people with a major fault, in the middle of nowhere. Nobody on board. What now? Have you ever dealt with a stranded train full of people? Know how long it takes before they start trying to egress doors and smash windows? Not to mention the other trains in the area that have now stopped for apparently no reason. They’re full of passengers too. They’ve got nobody on board updating them or assisting them with their queries What now?" If this happens frequently then the system is not fit for purpose either due to poor maintenance or poor design. The benefit would be that passengers would get used to it
Backup systems should keep passengers informed, and open doors if necessary however keeping people on the train is usually the safest option unless there is a fire.
Few parts of the system are more than an hour away from a suitable location for maintenance response crews. | |||
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" If someone steps out in front of a train, then who puts the emergency brake in? Exactly the same technology as is being developed for self driving cars, only easier as trains are confined to tracks. Technical faults have to be minimised by proper maintenance. In reality, how many faults can be fixed by the driver? Minor faults mean the train could continue at reduced speed anyway. Major faults anythe train is stopped anyway. The only reason trains have not been automated is due to protectionist policies by agressive unions trying to maintain legacy working practices. So you’ve got a train full of people with a major fault, in the middle of nowhere. Nobody on board. What now? Have you ever dealt with a stranded train full of people? Know how long it takes before they start trying to egress doors and smash windows? Not to mention the other trains in the area that have now stopped for apparently no reason. They’re full of passengers too. They’ve got nobody on board updating them or assisting them with their queries What now? If this happens frequently then the system is not fit for purpose either due to poor maintenance or poor design. The benefit would be that passengers would get used to it
Backup systems should keep passengers informed, and open doors if necessary however keeping people on the train is usually the safest option unless there is a fire.
Few parts of the system are more than an hour away from a suitable location for maintenance response crews."Passengers won’t stay on a stranded train, believe me. And also, speaking from experience, many places on the network are more than an hour away from fitters etc travelling. Honestly, I’m not taking your chain. I’ve got two decades operational experience on the railway. 17 as a driver. Automation isn’t happening before I retire in 2042. Too expensive. Too complex. It’s cheaper and easier to keep drivers. HS2 has taken 13 years to even get to where we are now - and a brand new purpose built line is *way* easier than overhauling existing infrastructure whilst still running a service. | |||
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"You gotta love Fab. Everyone’s an expert. A FabExpert who cannot accept explanations from real experts. You know, the people who actually do the job or work in the industry. All of us laypeople can clearly have opinions of course, but it isn’t a good look when you start arguing the toss with actual experts (not people who have a few things). Know your shit vs know you’re shit!" I’d love an automated railway with reduced driver responsibilities. Less stressful, for sure. It’s just not happening | |||
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"You gotta love Fab. Everyone’s an expert. A FabExpert who cannot accept explanations from real experts. You know, the people who actually do the job or work in the industry. All of us laypeople can clearly have opinions of course, but it isn’t a good look when you start arguing the toss with actual experts (not people who have a few things). Know your shit vs know you’re shit! I’d love an automated railway with reduced driver responsibilities. Less stressful, for sure. It’s just not happening "This will feel like a dig a Sexy_Horny but it is more of a general comment. How many posts have there been on this thread (often seen on others) where a layperson is arguing with an expert. It’s barmy. Ask questions by all means to improve your own understanding, but why dismiss decades of first hand experience? | |||
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"The real Northern leg has already been cancelled Even if they built it the drivers would be on strike 2 days every 14.. ;, why ? Well there on strike this week ant thay.. ;,, but why are they on strike ? Political strikes to damage the government and try to usher in their Labour lapdogs. Train drivers are way over paid anyway. Can't quite understand why there is such a push to self driving cars when trains are much easier to convert. Trajan aren’t easy to convert to automation at all. And they’re very expensive to do so, and they’ll still have an operator onboard that will still be safety critical and require a decent salary. And by what metric do you call train drivers overpaid? What do you know of the role? I wouldn't say overpaid but they do earn a decent wage. The highest in Europe I believe. How are drivers paid? Is it banded? Not to any great extent. I can only speak for my company where trainees have a rate, then newly qualified drivers (for the first two years) are on a rate lower than the ‘experienced’ drivers. (A recent change and something I disagree with but that’s by the by) So effectively, after 2 years, train drivers will earn circa. 60k salary? How long is the training and what is the trainee salary? The training is a year. I think the trainees are on around 24k or thereabouts. I'm not mocking a drivers responsibilities or anything like that but say 40k? within a year and 60k after a further 2 is seriously good money. I don’t think anyone has suggested it isn’t good money. I certainly haven’t. It’s not as good as it was 4 years ago when the last pay deal was negotiated though. And assuming the deal ends up being around 5% (that’s the figure bandied about as acceptable) then in real-terms drivers are still not as well off as they were in 2019. That last pay deal was said to be 28% over 4 years, is that correct? The last tranche of pay deals were individual TOCS negotiated with their own staff. There hasn’t been a national pay deal done in decades. My company certainly didn’t pay 28% over 4 years - I’ve only ever seen 2 year deals negotiated. I’m not sure where that figure came from, but it’s bollocks. " The figures came from ASLEF. Was for Southern Railway. I'm not entirely sure if others got the same deal. | |||
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"The real Northern leg has already been cancelled Even if they built it the drivers would be on strike 2 days every 14.. ;, why ? Well there on strike this week ant thay.. ;,, but why are they on strike ? Political strikes to damage the government and try to usher in their Labour lapdogs. Train drivers are way over paid anyway. Can't quite understand why there is such a push to self driving cars when trains are much easier to convert. Trajan aren’t easy to convert to automation at all. And they’re very expensive to do so, and they’ll still have an operator onboard that will still be safety critical and require a decent salary. And by what metric do you call train drivers overpaid? What do you know of the role? I wouldn't say overpaid but they do earn a decent wage. The highest in Europe I believe. How are drivers paid? Is it banded? Not to any great extent. I can only speak for my company where trainees have a rate, then newly qualified drivers (for the first two years) are on a rate lower than the ‘experienced’ drivers. (A recent change and something I disagree with but that’s by the by) So effectively, after 2 years, train drivers will earn circa. 60k salary? How long is the training and what is the trainee salary? The training is a year. I think the trainees are on around 24k or thereabouts. I'm not mocking a drivers responsibilities or anything like that but say 40k? within a year and 60k after a further 2 is seriously good money. I don’t think anyone has suggested it isn’t good money. I certainly haven’t. It’s not as good as it was 4 years ago when the last pay deal was negotiated though. And assuming the deal ends up being around 5% (that’s the figure bandied about as acceptable) then in real-terms drivers are still not as well off as they were in 2019. That last pay deal was said to be 28% over 4 years, is that correct? The last tranche of pay deals were individual TOCS negotiated with their own staff. There hasn’t been a national pay deal done in decades. My company certainly didn’t pay 28% over 4 years - I’ve only ever seen 2 year deals negotiated. I’m not sure where that figure came from, but it’s bollocks. The figures came from ASLEF. Was for Southern Railway. I'm not entirely sure if others got the same deal." They definitely did not get the same. | |||
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"The real Northern leg has already been cancelled Even if they built it the drivers would be on strike 2 days every 14.. ;, why ? Well there on strike this week ant thay.. ;,, but why are they on strike ? Political strikes to damage the government and try to usher in their Labour lapdogs. Train drivers are way over paid anyway. Can't quite understand why there is such a push to self driving cars when trains are much easier to convert. Trajan aren’t easy to convert to automation at all. And they’re very expensive to do so, and they’ll still have an operator onboard that will still be safety critical and require a decent salary. And by what metric do you call train drivers overpaid? What do you know of the role? I wouldn't say overpaid but they do earn a decent wage. The highest in Europe I believe. How are drivers paid? Is it banded? Not to any great extent. I can only speak for my company where trainees have a rate, then newly qualified drivers (for the first two years) are on a rate lower than the ‘experienced’ drivers. (A recent change and something I disagree with but that’s by the by) So effectively, after 2 years, train drivers will earn circa. 60k salary? How long is the training and what is the trainee salary? The training is a year. I think the trainees are on around 24k or thereabouts. I'm not mocking a drivers responsibilities or anything like that but say 40k? within a year and 60k after a further 2 is seriously good money. I don’t think anyone has suggested it isn’t good money. I certainly haven’t. It’s not as good as it was 4 years ago when the last pay deal was negotiated though. And assuming the deal ends up being around 5% (that’s the figure bandied about as acceptable) then in real-terms drivers are still not as well off as they were in 2019. That last pay deal was said to be 28% over 4 years, is that correct? The last tranche of pay deals were individual TOCS negotiated with their own staff. There hasn’t been a national pay deal done in decades. My company certainly didn’t pay 28% over 4 years - I’ve only ever seen 2 year deals negotiated. I’m not sure where that figure came from, but it’s bollocks. The figures came from ASLEF. Was for Southern Railway. I'm not entirely sure if others got the same deal. They definitely did not get the same." Fair enough, I'm not clued up hence the questions. What I will say though re. Southern. You asked how long should inflation chip away, that 28% has covered inflation since that deal. If other companies have done the same, it definitely seems like greed. I don't really use trains all that often but hopefully when Labour get into power they'll just fucking re-nationalise them. What is a 'fair wage' anyway? Twice the UK average? | |||
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"The real Northern leg has already been cancelled Even if they built it the drivers would be on strike 2 days every 14.. ;, why ? Well there on strike this week ant thay.. ;,, but why are they on strike ? Political strikes to damage the government and try to usher in their Labour lapdogs. Train drivers are way over paid anyway. Can't quite understand why there is such a push to self driving cars when trains are much easier to convert. Trajan aren’t easy to convert to automation at all. And they’re very expensive to do so, and they’ll still have an operator onboard that will still be safety critical and require a decent salary. And by what metric do you call train drivers overpaid? What do you know of the role? I wouldn't say overpaid but they do earn a decent wage. The highest in Europe I believe. How are drivers paid? Is it banded? Not to any great extent. I can only speak for my company where trainees have a rate, then newly qualified drivers (for the first two years) are on a rate lower than the ‘experienced’ drivers. (A recent change and something I disagree with but that’s by the by) So effectively, after 2 years, train drivers will earn circa. 60k salary? How long is the training and what is the trainee salary? The training is a year. I think the trainees are on around 24k or thereabouts. I'm not mocking a drivers responsibilities or anything like that but say 40k? within a year and 60k after a further 2 is seriously good money. I don’t think anyone has suggested it isn’t good money. I certainly haven’t. It’s not as good as it was 4 years ago when the last pay deal was negotiated though. And assuming the deal ends up being around 5% (that’s the figure bandied about as acceptable) then in real-terms drivers are still not as well off as they were in 2019. That last pay deal was said to be 28% over 4 years, is that correct? The last tranche of pay deals were individual TOCS negotiated with their own staff. There hasn’t been a national pay deal done in decades. My company certainly didn’t pay 28% over 4 years - I’ve only ever seen 2 year deals negotiated. I’m not sure where that figure came from, but it’s bollocks. The figures came from ASLEF. Was for Southern Railway. I'm not entirely sure if others got the same deal. They definitely did not get the same. Fair enough, I'm not clued up hence the questions. What I will say though re. Southern. You asked how long should inflation chip away, that 28% has covered inflation since that deal. If other companies have done the same, it definitely seems like greed. I don't really use trains all that often but hopefully when Labour get into power they'll just fucking re-nationalise them. What is a 'fair wage' anyway? Twice the UK average?" Fair wage is dictated by the market, is it not? Responsibility, shift work, training requirements etc. In some industries that will be twice or more than the average wage. In other industries less. Everyone should fight to maintain and improve their wages and conditions, and support those who do the same. | |||
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"The real Northern leg has already been cancelled Even if they built it the drivers would be on strike 2 days every 14.. ;, why ? Well there on strike this week ant thay.. ;,, but why are they on strike ? Political strikes to damage the government and try to usher in their Labour lapdogs. Train drivers are way over paid anyway. Can't quite understand why there is such a push to self driving cars when trains are much easier to convert. Trajan aren’t easy to convert to automation at all. And they’re very expensive to do so, and they’ll still have an operator onboard that will still be safety critical and require a decent salary. And by what metric do you call train drivers overpaid? What do you know of the role? I wouldn't say overpaid but they do earn a decent wage. The highest in Europe I believe. How are drivers paid? Is it banded? Not to any great extent. I can only speak for my company where trainees have a rate, then newly qualified drivers (for the first two years) are on a rate lower than the ‘experienced’ drivers. (A recent change and something I disagree with but that’s by the by) So effectively, after 2 years, train drivers will earn circa. 60k salary? How long is the training and what is the trainee salary? The training is a year. I think the trainees are on around 24k or thereabouts. I'm not mocking a drivers responsibilities or anything like that but say 40k? within a year and 60k after a further 2 is seriously good money. I don’t think anyone has suggested it isn’t good money. I certainly haven’t. It’s not as good as it was 4 years ago when the last pay deal was negotiated though. And assuming the deal ends up being around 5% (that’s the figure bandied about as acceptable) then in real-terms drivers are still not as well off as they were in 2019. That last pay deal was said to be 28% over 4 years, is that correct? The last tranche of pay deals were individual TOCS negotiated with their own staff. There hasn’t been a national pay deal done in decades. My company certainly didn’t pay 28% over 4 years - I’ve only ever seen 2 year deals negotiated. I’m not sure where that figure came from, but it’s bollocks. The figures came from ASLEF. Was for Southern Railway. I'm not entirely sure if others got the same deal. They definitely did not get the same. Fair enough, I'm not clued up hence the questions. What I will say though re. Southern. You asked how long should inflation chip away, that 28% has covered inflation since that deal. If other companies have done the same, it definitely seems like greed. I don't really use trains all that often but hopefully when Labour get into power they'll just fucking re-nationalise them. What is a 'fair wage' anyway? Twice the UK average? Fair wage is dictated by the market, is it not? Responsibility, shift work, training requirements etc. In some industries that will be twice or more than the average wage. In other industries less. Everyone should fight to maintain and improve their wages and conditions, and support those who do the same. " It is in a free market but when you've got part private, part public. It's not free market. | |||
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"Wasn't the 28% payrise for drivers, the one where ASLEF stabbed the RMT in the back, over driver only operated trains? The two drivers that I know, are closer to the £85-100k bracket. Good money but as pointed out above, the free market dictates this kind of money." No driver in the country earns 85-100k basic. | |||
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"Wasn't the 28% payrise for drivers, the one where ASLEF stabbed the RMT in the back, over driver only operated trains? The two drivers that I know, are closer to the £85-100k bracket. Good money but as pointed out above, the free market dictates this kind of money. No driver in the country earns 85-100k basic. " No, they make it on working rest days and being specialised in what they do. | |||
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"Wasn't the 28% payrise for drivers, the one where ASLEF stabbed the RMT in the back, over driver only operated trains? The two drivers that I know, are closer to the £85-100k bracket. Good money but as pointed out above, the free market dictates this kind of money. No driver in the country earns 85-100k basic. No, they make it on working rest days and being specialised in what they do." You can earn that money with rest day work, I agree. But that’s not what pay talks are about. Basic rate is all that matters. | |||
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"Strange timing to announce it while the Tory conference is in Manchester" Most of the civil service are on the left  | |||
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"Strange timing to announce it while the Tory conference is in Manchester Most of the civil service are on the left "I’d agree generally this is the case for the more junior grades. Not so the senior grades. Kind of reflective of society (and certainly factories/manufacturing) really quelle surprise! | |||
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"The real Northern leg has already been cancelled Even if they built it the drivers would be on strike 2 days every 14.. ;, why ? Well there on strike this week ant thay.. ;,, but why are they on strike ? Political strikes to damage the government and try to usher in their Labour lapdogs. Train drivers are way over paid anyway. Can't quite understand why there is such a push to self driving cars when trains are much easier to convert. Trajan aren’t easy to convert to automation at all. And they’re very expensive to do so, and they’ll still have an operator onboard that will still be safety critical and require a decent salary. And by what metric do you call train drivers overpaid? What do you know of the role? I wouldn't say overpaid but they do earn a decent wage. The highest in Europe I believe. How are drivers paid? Is it banded? Not to any great extent. I can only speak for my company where trainees have a rate, then newly qualified drivers (for the first two years) are on a rate lower than the ‘experienced’ drivers. (A recent change and something I disagree with but that’s by the by) So effectively, after 2 years, train drivers will earn circa. 60k salary? How long is the training and what is the trainee salary? Bloody nora, I need out of the NHS Same advice I give everyone - get an application in. It’s shit hours. Hard work. Immense responsibility. But it’s well paid, decent time off, and a good career that’s given me everything I have. Pisses me off when people talk my industry down and tell me how easy and cushy it is, from their position of ignorance. " I can relate to shit hours, hard work and immense responsibility. That's where the similarity stops. | |||
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"The real Northern leg has already been cancelled Even if they built it the drivers would be on strike 2 days every 14.. ;, why ? Well there on strike this week ant thay.. ;,, but why are they on strike ? Political strikes to damage the government and try to usher in their Labour lapdogs. Train drivers are way over paid anyway. Can't quite understand why there is such a push to self driving cars when trains are much easier to convert. Trajan aren’t easy to convert to automation at all. And they’re very expensive to do so, and they’ll still have an operator onboard that will still be safety critical and require a decent salary. And by what metric do you call train drivers overpaid? What do you know of the role? I wouldn't say overpaid but they do earn a decent wage. The highest in Europe I believe. How are drivers paid? Is it banded? Not to any great extent. I can only speak for my company where trainees have a rate, then newly qualified drivers (for the first two years) are on a rate lower than the ‘experienced’ drivers. (A recent change and something I disagree with but that’s by the by) So effectively, after 2 years, train drivers will earn circa. 60k salary? How long is the training and what is the trainee salary? Bloody nora, I need out of the NHS Same advice I give everyone - get an application in. It’s shit hours. Hard work. Immense responsibility. But it’s well paid, decent time off, and a good career that’s given me everything I have. Pisses me off when people talk my industry down and tell me how easy and cushy it is, from their position of ignorance. I can relate to shit hours, hard work and immense responsibility. That's where the similarity stops." And when you go out on strike, you can count on my support. | |||
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"The real Northern leg has already been cancelled Even if they built it the drivers would be on strike 2 days every 14.. ;, why ? Well there on strike this week ant thay.. ;,, but why are they on strike ? Political strikes to damage the government and try to usher in their Labour lapdogs. Train drivers are way over paid anyway. Can't quite understand why there is such a push to self driving cars when trains are much easier to convert. Trajan aren’t easy to convert to automation at all. And they’re very expensive to do so, and they’ll still have an operator onboard that will still be safety critical and require a decent salary. And by what metric do you call train drivers overpaid? What do you know of the role? I wouldn't say overpaid but they do earn a decent wage. The highest in Europe I believe. How are drivers paid? Is it banded? Not to any great extent. I can only speak for my company where trainees have a rate, then newly qualified drivers (for the first two years) are on a rate lower than the ‘experienced’ drivers. (A recent change and something I disagree with but that’s by the by) So effectively, after 2 years, train drivers will earn circa. 60k salary? How long is the training and what is the trainee salary? Bloody nora, I need out of the NHS Same advice I give everyone - get an application in. It’s shit hours. Hard work. Immense responsibility. But it’s well paid, decent time off, and a good career that’s given me everything I have. Pisses me off when people talk my industry down and tell me how easy and cushy it is, from their position of ignorance. I can relate to shit hours, hard work and immense responsibility. That's where the similarity stops. And when you go out on strike, you can count on my support." Shit hours and hard work will always be debated. Immense responsibility I'll give you but no more responsibility than a lot of professions that are paid vastly less than train drivers. | |||
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"The real Northern leg has already been cancelled Even if they built it the drivers would be on strike 2 days every 14.. ;, why ? Well there on strike this week ant thay.. ;,, but why are they on strike ? Political strikes to damage the government and try to usher in their Labour lapdogs. Train drivers are way over paid anyway. Can't quite understand why there is such a push to self driving cars when trains are much easier to convert. Trajan aren’t easy to convert to automation at all. And they’re very expensive to do so, and they’ll still have an operator onboard that will still be safety critical and require a decent salary. And by what metric do you call train drivers overpaid? What do you know of the role? I wouldn't say overpaid but they do earn a decent wage. The highest in Europe I believe. How are drivers paid? Is it banded? Not to any great extent. I can only speak for my company where trainees have a rate, then newly qualified drivers (for the first two years) are on a rate lower than the ‘experienced’ drivers. (A recent change and something I disagree with but that’s by the by) So effectively, after 2 years, train drivers will earn circa. 60k salary? How long is the training and what is the trainee salary? Bloody nora, I need out of the NHS Same advice I give everyone - get an application in. It’s shit hours. Hard work. Immense responsibility. But it’s well paid, decent time off, and a good career that’s given me everything I have. Pisses me off when people talk my industry down and tell me how easy and cushy it is, from their position of ignorance. I can relate to shit hours, hard work and immense responsibility. That's where the similarity stops. And when you go out on strike, you can count on my support. Shit hours and hard work will always be debated. Immense responsibility I'll give you but no more responsibility than a lot of professions that are paid vastly less than train drivers. " And how is their getting paid ‘vastly’ less the problem of train drivers? I get paid vastly less than some industries. Is that their fault? It honestly just smacks of jealousy - not saying that’s the case for all, but definitely from some corners. As I’ve always said, trainee driver applications are open to all. | |||
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"The real Northern leg has already been cancelled Even if they built it the drivers would be on strike 2 days every 14.. ;, why ? Well there on strike this week ant thay.. ;,, but why are they on strike ? Political strikes to damage the government and try to usher in their Labour lapdogs. Train drivers are way over paid anyway. Can't quite understand why there is such a push to self driving cars when trains are much easier to convert. Trajan aren’t easy to convert to automation at all. And they’re very expensive to do so, and they’ll still have an operator onboard that will still be safety critical and require a decent salary. And by what metric do you call train drivers overpaid? What do you know of the role? I wouldn't say overpaid but they do earn a decent wage. The highest in Europe I believe. How are drivers paid? Is it banded? Not to any great extent. I can only speak for my company where trainees have a rate, then newly qualified drivers (for the first two years) are on a rate lower than the ‘experienced’ drivers. (A recent change and something I disagree with but that’s by the by) So effectively, after 2 years, train drivers will earn circa. 60k salary? How long is the training and what is the trainee salary? Bloody nora, I need out of the NHS Same advice I give everyone - get an application in. It’s shit hours. Hard work. Immense responsibility. But it’s well paid, decent time off, and a good career that’s given me everything I have. Pisses me off when people talk my industry down and tell me how easy and cushy it is, from their position of ignorance. I can relate to shit hours, hard work and immense responsibility. That's where the similarity stops. And when you go out on strike, you can count on my support. Shit hours and hard work will always be debated. Immense responsibility I'll give you but no more responsibility than a lot of professions that are paid vastly less than train drivers. And how is their getting paid ‘vastly’ less the problem of train drivers? I get paid vastly less than some industries. Is that their fault? It honestly just smacks of jealousy - not saying that’s the case for all, but definitely from some corners. As I’ve always said, trainee driver applications are open to all. " I didn't say it was the problem of train drivers. You use those things as to why train drivers should be paid what they're asking for. I haven't said anything is anyone else's fault. You just need a bit of context that's all. This one gets to you because its your industry. There's no jealousy, you just think there is. | |||
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"The real Northern leg has already been cancelled Even if they built it the drivers would be on strike 2 days every 14.. ;, why ? Well there on strike this week ant thay.. ;,, but why are they on strike ? Political strikes to damage the government and try to usher in their Labour lapdogs. Train drivers are way over paid anyway. Can't quite understand why there is such a push to self driving cars when trains are much easier to convert. Trajan aren’t easy to convert to automation at all. And they’re very expensive to do so, and they’ll still have an operator onboard that will still be safety critical and require a decent salary. And by what metric do you call train drivers overpaid? What do you know of the role? I wouldn't say overpaid but they do earn a decent wage. The highest in Europe I believe. How are drivers paid? Is it banded? Not to any great extent. I can only speak for my company where trainees have a rate, then newly qualified drivers (for the first two years) are on a rate lower than the ‘experienced’ drivers. (A recent change and something I disagree with but that’s by the by) So effectively, after 2 years, train drivers will earn circa. 60k salary? How long is the training and what is the trainee salary? Bloody nora, I need out of the NHS Same advice I give everyone - get an application in. It’s shit hours. Hard work. Immense responsibility. But it’s well paid, decent time off, and a good career that’s given me everything I have. Pisses me off when people talk my industry down and tell me how easy and cushy it is, from their position of ignorance. I can relate to shit hours, hard work and immense responsibility. That's where the similarity stops. And when you go out on strike, you can count on my support. Shit hours and hard work will always be debated. Immense responsibility I'll give you but no more responsibility than a lot of professions that are paid vastly less than train drivers. And how is their getting paid ‘vastly’ less the problem of train drivers? I get paid vastly less than some industries. Is that their fault? It honestly just smacks of jealousy - not saying that’s the case for all, but definitely from some corners. As I’ve always said, trainee driver applications are open to all. I didn't say it was the problem of train drivers. You use those things as to why train drivers should be paid what they're asking for. I haven't said anything is anyone else's fault. You just need a bit of context that's all. This one gets to you because its your industry. There's no jealousy, you just think there is. " Oh there definitely is jealousy - that’s why I’m keen to point out that it’s not all. I’ve seen myriad professional bus drivers and truck drivers claiming their job is more complicated than ‘stop and go’ and they get paid much less than train drivers for the trouble. | |||
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"The real Northern leg has already been cancelled Even if they built it the drivers would be on strike 2 days every 14.. ;, why ? Well there on strike this week ant thay.. ;,, but why are they on strike ? Political strikes to damage the government and try to usher in their Labour lapdogs. Train drivers are way over paid anyway. Can't quite understand why there is such a push to self driving cars when trains are much easier to convert. Trajan aren’t easy to convert to automation at all. And they’re very expensive to do so, and they’ll still have an operator onboard that will still be safety critical and require a decent salary. And by what metric do you call train drivers overpaid? What do you know of the role? I wouldn't say overpaid but they do earn a decent wage. The highest in Europe I believe. How are drivers paid? Is it banded? Not to any great extent. I can only speak for my company where trainees have a rate, then newly qualified drivers (for the first two years) are on a rate lower than the ‘experienced’ drivers. (A recent change and something I disagree with but that’s by the by) So effectively, after 2 years, train drivers will earn circa. 60k salary? How long is the training and what is the trainee salary? Bloody nora, I need out of the NHS Same advice I give everyone - get an application in. It’s shit hours. Hard work. Immense responsibility. But it’s well paid, decent time off, and a good career that’s given me everything I have. Pisses me off when people talk my industry down and tell me how easy and cushy it is, from their position of ignorance. I can relate to shit hours, hard work and immense responsibility. That's where the similarity stops. And when you go out on strike, you can count on my support. Shit hours and hard work will always be debated. Immense responsibility I'll give you but no more responsibility than a lot of professions that are paid vastly less than train drivers. And how is their getting paid ‘vastly’ less the problem of train drivers? I get paid vastly less than some industries. Is that their fault? It honestly just smacks of jealousy - not saying that’s the case for all, but definitely from some corners. As I’ve always said, trainee driver applications are open to all. I didn't say it was the problem of train drivers. You use those things as to why train drivers should be paid what they're asking for. I haven't said anything is anyone else's fault. You just need a bit of context that's all. This one gets to you because its your industry. There's no jealousy, you just think there is. Oh there definitely is jealousy - that’s why I’m keen to point out that it’s not all. I’ve seen myriad professional bus drivers and truck drivers claiming their job is more complicated than ‘stop and go’ and they get paid much less than train drivers for the trouble. " I don't see any jealousy. As I said, I think you see it differently because you feel its your industry under attack. Personally I feel 70k is a fucking good wage, for someone who has trained for just 3 years, with the opportunity to earn more through overtime. | |||
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"The real Northern leg has already been cancelled Even if they built it the drivers would be on strike 2 days every 14.. ;, why ? Well there on strike this week ant thay.. ;,, but why are they on strike ? Political strikes to damage the government and try to usher in their Labour lapdogs. Train drivers are way over paid anyway. Can't quite understand why there is such a push to self driving cars when trains are much easier to convert. Trajan aren’t easy to convert to automation at all. And they’re very expensive to do so, and they’ll still have an operator onboard that will still be safety critical and require a decent salary. And by what metric do you call train drivers overpaid? What do you know of the role? I wouldn't say overpaid but they do earn a decent wage. The highest in Europe I believe. How are drivers paid? Is it banded? Not to any great extent. I can only speak for my company where trainees have a rate, then newly qualified drivers (for the first two years) are on a rate lower than the ‘experienced’ drivers. (A recent change and something I disagree with but that’s by the by) So effectively, after 2 years, train drivers will earn circa. 60k salary? How long is the training and what is the trainee salary? Bloody nora, I need out of the NHS Same advice I give everyone - get an application in. It’s shit hours. Hard work. Immense responsibility. But it’s well paid, decent time off, and a good career that’s given me everything I have. Pisses me off when people talk my industry down and tell me how easy and cushy it is, from their position of ignorance. I can relate to shit hours, hard work and immense responsibility. That's where the similarity stops. And when you go out on strike, you can count on my support. Shit hours and hard work will always be debated. Immense responsibility I'll give you but no more responsibility than a lot of professions that are paid vastly less than train drivers. And how is their getting paid ‘vastly’ less the problem of train drivers? I get paid vastly less than some industries. Is that their fault? It honestly just smacks of jealousy - not saying that’s the case for all, but definitely from some corners. As I’ve always said, trainee driver applications are open to all. I didn't say it was the problem of train drivers. You use those things as to why train drivers should be paid what they're asking for. I haven't said anything is anyone else's fault. You just need a bit of context that's all. This one gets to you because its your industry. There's no jealousy, you just think there is. Oh there definitely is jealousy - that’s why I’m keen to point out that it’s not all. I’ve seen myriad professional bus drivers and truck drivers claiming their job is more complicated than ‘stop and go’ and they get paid much less than train drivers for the trouble. I don't see any jealousy. As I said, I think you see it differently because you feel its your industry under attack. Personally I feel 70k is a fucking good wage, for someone who has trained for just 3 years, with the opportunity to earn more through overtime. " Overtime isn’t an argument when discussing pay deals though. Especially in safety critical environments where you want people working as little as possible, ideally. | |||
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"The real Northern leg has already been cancelled Even if they built it the drivers would be on strike 2 days every 14.. ;, why ? Well there on strike this week ant thay.. ;,, but why are they on strike ? Political strikes to damage the government and try to usher in their Labour lapdogs. Train drivers are way over paid anyway. Can't quite understand why there is such a push to self driving cars when trains are much easier to convert. Trajan aren’t easy to convert to automation at all. And they’re very expensive to do so, and they’ll still have an operator onboard that will still be safety critical and require a decent salary. And by what metric do you call train drivers overpaid? What do you know of the role? I wouldn't say overpaid but they do earn a decent wage. The highest in Europe I believe. How are drivers paid? Is it banded? Not to any great extent. I can only speak for my company where trainees have a rate, then newly qualified drivers (for the first two years) are on a rate lower than the ‘experienced’ drivers. (A recent change and something I disagree with but that’s by the by) So effectively, after 2 years, train drivers will earn circa. 60k salary? How long is the training and what is the trainee salary? Bloody nora, I need out of the NHS Same advice I give everyone - get an application in. It’s shit hours. Hard work. Immense responsibility. But it’s well paid, decent time off, and a good career that’s given me everything I have. Pisses me off when people talk my industry down and tell me how easy and cushy it is, from their position of ignorance. I can relate to shit hours, hard work and immense responsibility. That's where the similarity stops. And when you go out on strike, you can count on my support. Shit hours and hard work will always be debated. Immense responsibility I'll give you but no more responsibility than a lot of professions that are paid vastly less than train drivers. And how is their getting paid ‘vastly’ less the problem of train drivers? I get paid vastly less than some industries. Is that their fault? It honestly just smacks of jealousy - not saying that’s the case for all, but definitely from some corners. As I’ve always said, trainee driver applications are open to all. I didn't say it was the problem of train drivers. You use those things as to why train drivers should be paid what they're asking for. I haven't said anything is anyone else's fault. You just need a bit of context that's all. This one gets to you because its your industry. There's no jealousy, you just think there is. Oh there definitely is jealousy - that’s why I’m keen to point out that it’s not all. I’ve seen myriad professional bus drivers and truck drivers claiming their job is more complicated than ‘stop and go’ and they get paid much less than train drivers for the trouble. I don't see any jealousy. As I said, I think you see it differently because you feel its your industry under attack. Personally I feel 70k is a fucking good wage, for someone who has trained for just 3 years, with the opportunity to earn more through overtime. Overtime isn’t an argument when discussing pay deals though. Especially in safety critical environments where you want people working as little as possible, ideally. " I didnt include overtime in my figure, I said there was the opportunity for it, 70k is a fucking good wage for 35hrs a week. | |||
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"The real Northern leg has already been cancelled Even if they built it the drivers would be on strike 2 days every 14.. ;, why ? Well there on strike this week ant thay.. ;,, but why are they on strike ? Political strikes to damage the government and try to usher in their Labour lapdogs. Train drivers are way over paid anyway. Can't quite understand why there is such a push to self driving cars when trains are much easier to convert. Trajan aren’t easy to convert to automation at all. And they’re very expensive to do so, and they’ll still have an operator onboard that will still be safety critical and require a decent salary. And by what metric do you call train drivers overpaid? What do you know of the role? I wouldn't say overpaid but they do earn a decent wage. The highest in Europe I believe. How are drivers paid? Is it banded? Not to any great extent. I can only speak for my company where trainees have a rate, then newly qualified drivers (for the first two years) are on a rate lower than the ‘experienced’ drivers. (A recent change and something I disagree with but that’s by the by) So effectively, after 2 years, train drivers will earn circa. 60k salary? How long is the training and what is the trainee salary? Bloody nora, I need out of the NHS Same advice I give everyone - get an application in. It’s shit hours. Hard work. Immense responsibility. But it’s well paid, decent time off, and a good career that’s given me everything I have. Pisses me off when people talk my industry down and tell me how easy and cushy it is, from their position of ignorance. I can relate to shit hours, hard work and immense responsibility. That's where the similarity stops. And when you go out on strike, you can count on my support. Shit hours and hard work will always be debated. Immense responsibility I'll give you but no more responsibility than a lot of professions that are paid vastly less than train drivers. And how is their getting paid ‘vastly’ less the problem of train drivers? I get paid vastly less than some industries. Is that their fault? It honestly just smacks of jealousy - not saying that’s the case for all, but definitely from some corners. As I’ve always said, trainee driver applications are open to all. I didn't say it was the problem of train drivers. You use those things as to why train drivers should be paid what they're asking for. I haven't said anything is anyone else's fault. You just need a bit of context that's all. This one gets to you because its your industry. There's no jealousy, you just think there is. Oh there definitely is jealousy - that’s why I’m keen to point out that it’s not all. I’ve seen myriad professional bus drivers and truck drivers claiming their job is more complicated than ‘stop and go’ and they get paid much less than train drivers for the trouble. I don't see any jealousy. As I said, I think you see it differently because you feel its your industry under attack. Personally I feel 70k is a fucking good wage, for someone who has trained for just 3 years, with the opportunity to earn more through overtime. Overtime isn’t an argument when discussing pay deals though. Especially in safety critical environments where you want people working as little as possible, ideally. I didnt include overtime in my figure, I said there was the opportunity for it, 70k is a fucking good wage for 35hrs a week. " You seem obsessed with it being a good wage. Something I’ve never denied. | |||
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"The real Northern leg has already been cancelled Even if they built it the drivers would be on strike 2 days every 14.. ;, why ? Well there on strike this week ant thay.. ;,, but why are they on strike ? Political strikes to damage the government and try to usher in their Labour lapdogs. Train drivers are way over paid anyway. Can't quite understand why there is such a push to self driving cars when trains are much easier to convert. Trajan aren’t easy to convert to automation at all. And they’re very expensive to do so, and they’ll still have an operator onboard that will still be safety critical and require a decent salary. And by what metric do you call train drivers overpaid? What do you know of the role? I wouldn't say overpaid but they do earn a decent wage. The highest in Europe I believe. How are drivers paid? Is it banded? Not to any great extent. I can only speak for my company where trainees have a rate, then newly qualified drivers (for the first two years) are on a rate lower than the ‘experienced’ drivers. (A recent change and something I disagree with but that’s by the by) So effectively, after 2 years, train drivers will earn circa. 60k salary? How long is the training and what is the trainee salary? Bloody nora, I need out of the NHS Same advice I give everyone - get an application in. It’s shit hours. Hard work. Immense responsibility. But it’s well paid, decent time off, and a good career that’s given me everything I have. Pisses me off when people talk my industry down and tell me how easy and cushy it is, from their position of ignorance. I can relate to shit hours, hard work and immense responsibility. That's where the similarity stops. And when you go out on strike, you can count on my support. Shit hours and hard work will always be debated. Immense responsibility I'll give you but no more responsibility than a lot of professions that are paid vastly less than train drivers. And how is their getting paid ‘vastly’ less the problem of train drivers? I get paid vastly less than some industries. Is that their fault? It honestly just smacks of jealousy - not saying that’s the case for all, but definitely from some corners. As I’ve always said, trainee driver applications are open to all. I didn't say it was the problem of train drivers. You use those things as to why train drivers should be paid what they're asking for. I haven't said anything is anyone else's fault. You just need a bit of context that's all. This one gets to you because its your industry. There's no jealousy, you just think there is. Oh there definitely is jealousy - that’s why I’m keen to point out that it’s not all. I’ve seen myriad professional bus drivers and truck drivers claiming their job is more complicated than ‘stop and go’ and they get paid much less than train drivers for the trouble. I don't see any jealousy. As I said, I think you see it differently because you feel its your industry under attack. Personally I feel 70k is a fucking good wage, for someone who has trained for just 3 years, with the opportunity to earn more through overtime. Overtime isn’t an argument when discussing pay deals though. Especially in safety critical environments where you want people working as little as possible, ideally. I didnt include overtime in my figure, I said there was the opportunity for it, 70k is a fucking good wage for 35hrs a week. You seem obsessed with it being a good wage. Something I’ve never denied. " Because it is. Why do they want more? Because their unions told them they could have more? Because they're struggling with the wage? I think the same of all industries... You know the wage when you enter, you can have a rough idea of what you may earn in 10 years time. Stop fucking moaning about it. | |||
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"The real Northern leg has already been cancelled Even if they built it the drivers would be on strike 2 days every 14.. ;, why ? Well there on strike this week ant thay.. ;,, but why are they on strike ? Political strikes to damage the government and try to usher in their Labour lapdogs. Train drivers are way over paid anyway. Can't quite understand why there is such a push to self driving cars when trains are much easier to convert. Trajan aren’t easy to convert to automation at all. And they’re very expensive to do so, and they’ll still have an operator onboard that will still be safety critical and require a decent salary. And by what metric do you call train drivers overpaid? What do you know of the role? I wouldn't say overpaid but they do earn a decent wage. The highest in Europe I believe. How are drivers paid? Is it banded? Not to any great extent. I can only speak for my company where trainees have a rate, then newly qualified drivers (for the first two years) are on a rate lower than the ‘experienced’ drivers. (A recent change and something I disagree with but that’s by the by) So effectively, after 2 years, train drivers will earn circa. 60k salary? How long is the training and what is the trainee salary? Bloody nora, I need out of the NHS Same advice I give everyone - get an application in. It’s shit hours. Hard work. Immense responsibility. But it’s well paid, decent time off, and a good career that’s given me everything I have. Pisses me off when people talk my industry down and tell me how easy and cushy it is, from their position of ignorance. I can relate to shit hours, hard work and immense responsibility. That's where the similarity stops. And when you go out on strike, you can count on my support. Shit hours and hard work will always be debated. Immense responsibility I'll give you but no more responsibility than a lot of professions that are paid vastly less than train drivers. And how is their getting paid ‘vastly’ less the problem of train drivers? I get paid vastly less than some industries. Is that their fault? It honestly just smacks of jealousy - not saying that’s the case for all, but definitely from some corners. As I’ve always said, trainee driver applications are open to all. I didn't say it was the problem of train drivers. You use those things as to why train drivers should be paid what they're asking for. I haven't said anything is anyone else's fault. You just need a bit of context that's all. This one gets to you because its your industry. There's no jealousy, you just think there is. Oh there definitely is jealousy - that’s why I’m keen to point out that it’s not all. I’ve seen myriad professional bus drivers and truck drivers claiming their job is more complicated than ‘stop and go’ and they get paid much less than train drivers for the trouble. I don't see any jealousy. As I said, I think you see it differently because you feel its your industry under attack. Personally I feel 70k is a fucking good wage, for someone who has trained for just 3 years, with the opportunity to earn more through overtime. Overtime isn’t an argument when discussing pay deals though. Especially in safety critical environments where you want people working as little as possible, ideally. I didnt include overtime in my figure, I said there was the opportunity for it, 70k is a fucking good wage for 35hrs a week. You seem obsessed with it being a good wage. Something I’ve never denied. Because it is. Why do they want more? Because their unions told them they could have more? Because they're struggling with the wage? I think the same of all industries... You know the wage when you enter, you can have a rough idea of what you may earn in 10 years time. Stop fucking moaning about it. " So when are you allowed to moan? How many years without a pay deal amidst climbing inflation? How much poorer does one have to be before having legitimate reason to kick up a fuss? Does it apply equally to all? | |||
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"The real Northern leg has already been cancelled Even if they built it the drivers would be on strike 2 days every 14.. ;, why ? Well there on strike this week ant thay.. ;,, but why are they on strike ? Political strikes to damage the government and try to usher in their Labour lapdogs. Train drivers are way over paid anyway. Can't quite understand why there is such a push to self driving cars when trains are much easier to convert. Trajan aren’t easy to convert to automation at all. And they’re very expensive to do so, and they’ll still have an operator onboard that will still be safety critical and require a decent salary. And by what metric do you call train drivers overpaid? What do you know of the role? I wouldn't say overpaid but they do earn a decent wage. The highest in Europe I believe. How are drivers paid? Is it banded? Not to any great extent. I can only speak for my company where trainees have a rate, then newly qualified drivers (for the first two years) are on a rate lower than the ‘experienced’ drivers. (A recent change and something I disagree with but that’s by the by) So effectively, after 2 years, train drivers will earn circa. 60k salary? How long is the training and what is the trainee salary? Bloody nora, I need out of the NHS Same advice I give everyone - get an application in. It’s shit hours. Hard work. Immense responsibility. But it’s well paid, decent time off, and a good career that’s given me everything I have. Pisses me off when people talk my industry down and tell me how easy and cushy it is, from their position of ignorance. I can relate to shit hours, hard work and immense responsibility. That's where the similarity stops. And when you go out on strike, you can count on my support. Shit hours and hard work will always be debated. Immense responsibility I'll give you but no more responsibility than a lot of professions that are paid vastly less than train drivers. And how is their getting paid ‘vastly’ less the problem of train drivers? I get paid vastly less than some industries. Is that their fault? It honestly just smacks of jealousy - not saying that’s the case for all, but definitely from some corners. As I’ve always said, trainee driver applications are open to all. I didn't say it was the problem of train drivers. You use those things as to why train drivers should be paid what they're asking for. I haven't said anything is anyone else's fault. You just need a bit of context that's all. This one gets to you because its your industry. There's no jealousy, you just think there is. Oh there definitely is jealousy - that’s why I’m keen to point out that it’s not all. I’ve seen myriad professional bus drivers and truck drivers claiming their job is more complicated than ‘stop and go’ and they get paid much less than train drivers for the trouble. I don't see any jealousy. As I said, I think you see it differently because you feel its your industry under attack. Personally I feel 70k is a fucking good wage, for someone who has trained for just 3 years, with the opportunity to earn more through overtime. Overtime isn’t an argument when discussing pay deals though. Especially in safety critical environments where you want people working as little as possible, ideally. I didnt include overtime in my figure, I said there was the opportunity for it, 70k is a fucking good wage for 35hrs a week. You seem obsessed with it being a good wage. Something I’ve never denied. Because it is. Why do they want more? Because their unions told them they could have more? Because they're struggling with the wage? I think the same of all industries... You know the wage when you enter, you can have a rough idea of what you may earn in 10 years time. Stop fucking moaning about it. So when are you allowed to moan? How many years without a pay deal amidst climbing inflation? How much poorer does one have to be before having legitimate reason to kick up a fuss? Does it apply equally to all? " Pretty sure I said across all industries, that implies that it applies to all.... As I've said many times before, you knew the wage and could easily work out a rough wage in 10 years time. I don't hear many train drivers complaining about their 60% increases over the last decade when inflation was much lower. Using inflation in this debate is quite convenient. | |||
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“difficult decisions are going to have to be made” said Mr Sunak last year. - he seems unwilling to commit to making one while he’s in Manchester….
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"Don't forget that if Manchester is cancelled, then the East Midlands leg goes as well. Which won't be any great loss, as it was only going to a power station anyway!" The Old Oak Common to Birmingham shuttle. Levelling up the north. | |||
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"So the Birmingham - Manchester link of HS2 is to be cancelled. I *think* someone in this forum predicted that would happen." "Where are you getting this news?" "Sky news" "So, I've learnt that Sky News is not a particularly reliable source of factual information. Thanks for that." "They were first with the news yesterday, when I started with the thread, that’s all." The point is that it isn't news is it. It's speculation. If Sky News are willing to announce that something has happened when it hasn't, then they're not a source that I will be trusting in future. | |||
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"So the Birmingham - Manchester link of HS2 is to be cancelled. I *think* someone in this forum predicted that would happen. Where are you getting this news? Sky news So, I've learnt that Sky News is not a particularly reliable source of factual information. Thanks for that. They were first with the news yesterday, when I started with the thread, that’s all. The point is that it isn't news is it. It's speculation. If Sky News are willing to announce that something has happened when it hasn't, then they're not a source that I will be trusting in future." They reported that it is to be cancelled. At some point we’re going to get an announcement that it has been cancelled. Maybe tomorrow. Maybe they’ll hold off til they’re out of Manchester. Maybe they’ll kick the can down the road a while yet - But it’s coming. | |||
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"They reported that it is to be cancelled. At some point we’re going to get an announcement that it has been cancelled. Maybe tomorrow. Maybe they’ll hold off til they’re out of Manchester. Maybe they’ll kick the can down the road a while yet - But it’s coming." So they reported, as news, something that hasn't happened. Poor show. | |||
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"HS2 will run to Manchester ‘on existing lines from Birmingham’ So it’s not HS2 then. It’s the west coast mainline, on which HS2 was meant to create additional capacity. You couldn’t invent this level of incompetence." Where's this quote. I just googled but can't find it. | |||
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"HS2 will run to Manchester ‘on existing lines from Birmingham’ So it’s not HS2 then. It’s the west coast mainline, on which HS2 was meant to create additional capacity. You couldn’t invent this level of incompetence. Where's this quote. I just googled but can't find it. " Sky news a few moments ago. | |||
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"HS2 will run to Manchester ‘on existing lines from Birmingham’ So it’s not HS2 then. It’s the west coast mainline, on which HS2 was meant to create additional capacity. You couldn’t invent this level of incompetence. Where's this quote. I just googled but can't find it. Sky news a few moments ago." Not again. I just want something official | |||
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"HS2 will run to Manchester ‘on existing lines from Birmingham’ So it’s not HS2 then. It’s the west coast mainline, on which HS2 was meant to create additional capacity. You couldn’t invent this level of incompetence." "Where's this quote. I just googled but can't find it." "Sky news a few moments ago." And what have we learned about Sky News recently? | |||
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"HS2 will run to Manchester ‘on existing lines from Birmingham’ So it’s not HS2 then. It’s the west coast mainline, on which HS2 was meant to create additional capacity. You couldn’t invent this level of incompetence. Where's this quote. I just googled but can't find it. Sky news a few moments ago. And what have we learned about Sky News recently?" That they were right. The northern leg of HS2 was cancelled. | |||
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"HS2 will run to Manchester ‘on existing lines from Birmingham’ So it’s not HS2 then. It’s the west coast mainline, on which HS2 was meant to create additional capacity. You couldn’t invent this level of incompetence." Vote Tory for five more years.  | |||
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"HS2 will run to Manchester ‘on existing lines from Birmingham’ So it’s not HS2 then. It’s the west coast mainline, on which HS2 was meant to create additional capacity. You couldn’t invent this level of incompetence. Where's this quote. I just googled but can't find it. Sky news a few moments ago. Not again. I just want something official "If you want to disbelieve literally every media outlet in the country, and ignore the fact that no tories have denied anything in the last 2 days that’s your call. It’s been canned, let’s face it. | |||
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"HS2 will run to Manchester ‘on existing lines from Birmingham’ So it’s not HS2 then. It’s the west coast mainline, on which HS2 was meant to create additional capacity. You couldn’t invent this level of incompetence." "Where's this quote. I just googled but can't find it." "Sky news a few moments ago." "And what have we learned about Sky News recently?" "That they were right. The northern leg of HS2 was cancelled. " So why is no one else reporting this fact? | |||
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"HS2 will run to Manchester ‘on existing lines from Birmingham’ So it’s not HS2 then. It’s the west coast mainline, on which HS2 was meant to create additional capacity. You couldn’t invent this level of incompetence. Where's this quote. I just googled but can't find it. Sky news a few moments ago. And what have we learned about Sky News recently? That they were right. The northern leg of HS2 was cancelled. So why is no one else reporting this fact?" Like yesterday, they weren’t far behind Sky. | |||
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"How can they possibly pretend it is HS2 when it is existing track at existing speeds ?" Because they have no shame. | |||
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"How can they possibly pretend it is HS2 when it is existing track at existing speeds ? Because they have no shame. " True | |||
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"HS2 will run to Manchester ‘on existing lines from Birmingham’ So it’s not HS2 then. It’s the west coast mainline, on which HS2 was meant to create additional capacity. You couldn’t invent this level of incompetence. Where's this quote. I just googled but can't find it. Sky news a few moments ago. Not again. I just want something official
If you want to disbelieve literally every media outlet in the country, and ignore the fact that no tories have denied anything in the last 2 days that’s your call.
It’s been canned, let’s face it."I don't want to disbelieve anyone. I've consistently said I'll wait until official confirmation on just about every topic I've spoken on, on these forums. Just earlier today they were saying the line in London would terminate at Oak Common, something which you parroted. And are now saying Euston. How are we to believe 'sky news understands' when they often get things wrong. | |||
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"Sky is still saying Oak Common" Sky are saying Euston. "HS2 will start at Euston rather than Old Oak Common - but between Birmingham and Manchester it will not be high speed, Sky News understands." | |||
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"Sky is still saying Oak Common" I suspect it will run into Euston though - the old oak area doesn’t have the local infrastructure to be a London terminus. | |||
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"Sky is still saying Oak Common Sky are saying Euston. "HS2 will start at Euston rather than Old Oak Common - but between Birmingham and Manchester it will not be high speed, Sky News understands."" Yes I agree. They have just switched to saying that | |||
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"Sky is still saying Oak Common Sky are saying Euston. "HS2 will start at Euston rather than Old Oak Common - but between Birmingham and Manchester it will not be high speed, Sky News understands." Yes I agree. They have just switched to saying that" That's my point 'sky news understands' regularly changes, so doesn't hold too much weight. Why not just wait until you actually know shit before reporting? I've been asking for official confirmation for 2 days now. Still nothing. The only reason this is a thread, is because someone wanted to gloat. | |||
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"Sky is still saying Oak Common Sky are saying Euston. "HS2 will start at Euston rather than Old Oak Common - but between Birmingham and Manchester it will not be high speed, Sky News understands." Yes I agree. They have just switched to saying that That's my point 'sky news understands' regularly changes, so doesn't hold too much weight. Why not just wait until you actually know shit before reporting? I've been asking for official confirmation for 2 days now. Still nothing. The only reason this is a thread, is because someone wanted to gloat. " We’ve all wanted official confirmation for months now, not days. The problem is that the conservatives are too cowardly to confirm a decision they made some while back. | |||
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"Sky is still saying Oak Common Sky are saying Euston. "HS2 will start at Euston rather than Old Oak Common - but between Birmingham and Manchester it will not be high speed, Sky News understands." Yes I agree. They have just switched to saying that That's my point 'sky news understands' regularly changes, so doesn't hold too much weight. Why not just wait until you actually know shit before reporting? I've been asking for official confirmation for 2 days now. Still nothing. The only reason this is a thread, is because someone wanted to gloat. We’ve all wanted official confirmation for months now, not days. The problem is that the conservatives are too cowardly to confirm a decision they made some while back. " This particular story broke yesterday from Sky News. F course, there have been countless others that havent come to fruition. I'm still waiting for official confirmation. Not really sure why as it won't affect me one iota anyway. | |||
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"Sky is still saying Oak Common Sky are saying Euston. "HS2 will start at Euston rather than Old Oak Common - but between Birmingham and Manchester it will not be high speed, Sky News understands." Yes I agree. They have just switched to saying that That's my point 'sky news understands' regularly changes, so doesn't hold too much weight. Why not just wait until you actually know shit before reporting? I've been asking for official confirmation for 2 days now. Still nothing. The only reason this is a thread, is because someone wanted to gloat. We’ve all wanted official confirmation for months now, not days. The problem is that the conservatives are too cowardly to confirm a decision they made some while back. This particular story broke yesterday from Sky News. F course, there have been countless others that havent come to fruition. I'm still waiting for official confirmation. Not really sure why as it won't affect me one iota anyway. " It was discussed on this forum a while back. I said then that it was strongly suspected that the northern branch would be canned. In the industry it was reasonably common knowledge that something along these lines would happen. | |||
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"Sky is still saying Oak Common Sky are saying Euston. "HS2 will start at Euston rather than Old Oak Common - but between Birmingham and Manchester it will not be high speed, Sky News understands." Yes I agree. They have just switched to saying that That's my point 'sky news understands' regularly changes, so doesn't hold too much weight. Why not just wait until you actually know shit before reporting? I've been asking for official confirmation for 2 days now. Still nothing. The only reason this is a thread, is because someone wanted to gloat. We’ve all wanted official confirmation for months now, not days. The problem is that the conservatives are too cowardly to confirm a decision they made some while back. This particular story broke yesterday from Sky News. F course, there have been countless others that havent come to fruition. I'm still waiting for official confirmation. Not really sure why as it won't affect me one iota anyway. It was discussed on this forum a while back. I said then that it was strongly suspected that the northern branch would be canned. In the industry it was reasonably common knowledge that something along these lines would happen. " I remember. Still nothing confirmed. That's all I'm saying. As I've already said, I like my news to be confirmed. Not speculative. | |||
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"It was discussed on this forum a while back. I said then that it was strongly suspected that the northern branch would be canned. In the industry it was reasonably common knowledge that something along these lines would happen." I understand that you're keen to blow your own trumpet, and to gloat over those that disagreed with you, but could you really not wait until the announcement was actually made? Your self-aggrandisement would be much more effective if you had actually been shown to be correct, rather than just strongly suspecting it. | |||
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"They’ve actually painted themselves into quite a corner now. Option A) Scrap HS2 in Manchester after days of speculation and question avoidance, and look like incompetent fools. Option B) Continue with HS2 and look like incompetent fools who caved under pressure." You'd claim that they looked like incompetent food whatever they did. I suspect that their supporters will see it rather differently. | |||
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"They’ve actually painted themselves into quite a corner now. Option A) Scrap HS2 in Manchester after days of speculation and question avoidance, and look like incompetent fools. Option B) Continue with HS2 and look like incompetent fools who caved under pressure. You'd claim that they looked like incompetent food whatever they did. I suspect that their supporters will see it rather differently." Do you see a way out of this hole where they don’t look incompetent, then? | |||
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"They’ve actually painted themselves into quite a corner now. Option A) Scrap HS2 in Manchester after days of speculation and question avoidance, and look like incompetent fools. Option B) Continue with HS2 and look like incompetent fools who caved under pressure. You'd claim that they looked like incompetent food whatever they did. I suspect that their supporters will see it rather differently. Do you see a way out of this hole where they don’t look incompetent, then? " Yeah C) continue with HS2 because that was the plan all along. | |||
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"It was discussed on this forum a while back. I said then that it was strongly suspected that the northern branch would be canned. In the industry it was reasonably common knowledge that something along these lines would happen. I understand that you're keen to blow your own trumpet, and to gloat over those that disagreed with you, but could you really not wait until the announcement was actually made? Your self-aggrandisement would be much more effective if you had actually been shown to be correct, rather than just strongly suspecting it." You’re welcome. If anyone asks, you can tell them you knew about it months ago. An industry expert told you | |||
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"They’ve actually painted themselves into quite a corner now. Option A) Scrap HS2 in Manchester after days of speculation and question avoidance, and look like incompetent fools. Option B) Continue with HS2 and look like incompetent fools who caved under pressure. You'd claim that they looked like incompetent food whatever they did. I suspect that their supporters will see it rather differently. Do you see a way out of this hole where they don’t look incompetent, then? Yeah C) continue with HS2 because that was the plan all along." Would have worked if they’d said it 2 days ago. | |||
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"They’ve actually painted themselves into quite a corner now. Option A) Scrap HS2 in Manchester after days of speculation and question avoidance, and look like incompetent fools. Option B) Continue with HS2 and look like incompetent fools who caved under pressure. You'd claim that they looked like incompetent food whatever they did. I suspect that their supporters will see it rather differently. Do you see a way out of this hole where they don’t look incompetent, then? Yeah C) continue with HS2 because that was the plan all along. Would have worked if they’d said it 2 days ago. " They don't have to... You don't see that because of the hatred. | |||
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"They’ve actually painted themselves into quite a corner now. Option A) Scrap HS2 in Manchester after days of speculation and question avoidance, and look like incompetent fools. Option B) Continue with HS2 and look like incompetent fools who caved under pressure. You'd claim that they looked like incompetent food whatever they did. I suspect that their supporters will see it rather differently. Do you see a way out of this hole where they don’t look incompetent, then? Yeah C) continue with HS2 because that was the plan all along. Would have worked if they’d said it 2 days ago. They don't have to... You don't see that because of the hatred. " Nothing to do with hatred, everything to do with decent comms. If you’re definitely going ahead with the project and plan to discuss it at conference, what is the best way to deal with questions? ‘Is it true that the northern section of HS2 is to be scrapped?’ A) ‘Nonsense. Not at all’ Or B) ‘No, decisions have yet been made’ | |||
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"They’ve actually painted themselves into quite a corner now. Option A) Scrap HS2 in Manchester after days of speculation and question avoidance, and look like incompetent fools. Option B) Continue with HS2 and look like incompetent fools who caved under pressure. You'd claim that they looked like incompetent food whatever they did. I suspect that their supporters will see it rather differently. Do you see a way out of this hole where they don’t look incompetent, then? Yeah C) continue with HS2 because that was the plan all along. Would have worked if they’d said it 2 days ago. They don't have to... You don't see that because of the hatred. Nothing to do with hatred, everything to do with decent comms. If you’re definitely going ahead with the project and plan to discuss it at conference, what is the best way to deal with questions? ‘Is it true that the northern section of HS2 is to be scrapped?’ A) ‘Nonsense. Not at all’ Or B) ‘No, decisions have yet been made’ " Who said they planned to discuss it at the conference? This has all come about because of 'speculation'. A rumour starts and people start asking unfounded questions. No one is under any obligation to answer those questions. | |||
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"They’ve actually painted themselves into quite a corner now. Option A) Scrap HS2 in Manchester after days of speculation and question avoidance, and look like incompetent fools. Option B) Continue with HS2 and look like incompetent fools who caved under pressure. You'd claim that they looked like incompetent food whatever they did. I suspect that their supporters will see it rather differently. Do you see a way out of this hole where they don’t look incompetent, then? Yeah C) continue with HS2 because that was the plan all along. Would have worked if they’d said it 2 days ago. They don't have to... You don't see that because of the hatred. Nothing to do with hatred, everything to do with decent comms. If you’re definitely going ahead with the project and plan to discuss it at conference, what is the best way to deal with questions? ‘Is it true that the northern section of HS2 is to be scrapped?’ A) ‘Nonsense. Not at all’ Or B) ‘No, decisions have yet been made’ Who said they planned to discuss it at the conference? This has all come about because of 'speculation'. A rumour starts and people start asking unfounded questions. No one is under any obligation to answer those questions. " What would a good media team do? | |||
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"They’ve actually painted themselves into quite a corner now. Option A) Scrap HS2 in Manchester after days of speculation and question avoidance, and look like incompetent fools. Option B) Continue with HS2 and look like incompetent fools who caved under pressure. You'd claim that they looked like incompetent food whatever they did. I suspect that their supporters will see it rather differently. Do you see a way out of this hole where they don’t look incompetent, then? Yeah C) continue with HS2 because that was the plan all along. Would have worked if they’d said it 2 days ago. They don't have to... You don't see that because of the hatred. Nothing to do with hatred, everything to do with decent comms. If you’re definitely going ahead with the project and plan to discuss it at conference, what is the best way to deal with questions? ‘Is it true that the northern section of HS2 is to be scrapped?’ A) ‘Nonsense. Not at all’ Or B) ‘No, decisions have yet been made’ Who said they planned to discuss it at the conference? This has all come about because of 'speculation'. A rumour starts and people start asking unfounded questions. No one is under any obligation to answer those questions. What would a good media team do? " You're doing really really well at avoiding questions whilst continuing to ask your own. What was it you said about good communication and straight answers? | |||
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"They’ve actually painted themselves into quite a corner now. Option A) Scrap HS2 in Manchester after days of speculation and question avoidance, and look like incompetent fools. Option B) Continue with HS2 and look like incompetent fools who caved under pressure." "You'd claim that they looked like incompetent food whatever they did. I suspect that their supporters will see it rather differently." "Do you see a way out of this hole where they don’t look incompetent, then? " I suspect that a lot of Tory supporters see Rishi as being a strong leader that's refusing to be pushed into making a knee-jerk decision under media pressure. They might also think that he's carefully considering the options, rather than just doing whatever would be popular. I'm not suggesting that either of those options is true, I'm just saying that some people might see it that way. Just as your ideology makes you blind to Rishi's virtues, they would be blind to his failings. | |||
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"They’ve actually painted themselves into quite a corner now. Option A) Scrap HS2 in Manchester after days of speculation and question avoidance, and look like incompetent fools. Option B) Continue with HS2 and look like incompetent fools who caved under pressure. You'd claim that they looked like incompetent food whatever they did. I suspect that their supporters will see it rather differently. Do you see a way out of this hole where they don’t look incompetent, then? Yeah C) continue with HS2 because that was the plan all along. Would have worked if they’d said it 2 days ago. They don't have to... You don't see that because of the hatred. Nothing to do with hatred, everything to do with decent comms. If you’re definitely going ahead with the project and plan to discuss it at conference, what is the best way to deal with questions? ‘Is it true that the northern section of HS2 is to be scrapped?’ A) ‘Nonsense. Not at all’ Or B) ‘No, decisions have yet been made’ Who said they planned to discuss it at the conference? This has all come about because of 'speculation'. A rumour starts and people start asking unfounded questions. No one is under any obligation to answer those questions. What would a good media team do? You're doing really really well at avoiding questions whilst continuing to ask your own. What was it you said about good communication and straight answers?" I don’t believe you asked me a question? | |||
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"They’ve actually painted themselves into quite a corner now. Option A) Scrap HS2 in Manchester after days of speculation and question avoidance, and look like incompetent fools. Option B) Continue with HS2 and look like incompetent fools who caved under pressure. You'd claim that they looked like incompetent food whatever they did. I suspect that their supporters will see it rather differently. Do you see a way out of this hole where they don’t look incompetent, then? Yeah C) continue with HS2 because that was the plan all along. Would have worked if they’d said it 2 days ago. They don't have to... You don't see that because of the hatred. Nothing to do with hatred, everything to do with decent comms. If you’re definitely going ahead with the project and plan to discuss it at conference, what is the best way to deal with questions? ‘Is it true that the northern section of HS2 is to be scrapped?’ A) ‘Nonsense. Not at all’ Or B) ‘No, decisions have yet been made’ Who said they planned to discuss it at the conference? This has all come about because of 'speculation'. A rumour starts and people start asking unfounded questions. No one is under any obligation to answer those questions. What would a good media team do? You're doing really really well at avoiding questions whilst continuing to ask your own. What was it you said about good communication and straight answers? I don’t believe you asked me a question?" Didn't I? You better call specsavers in the morning bud. | |||
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"Who said they planned to discuss it at the conference?" "I don’t believe you asked me a question?" You even quoted one of F&F's questions in your post denying that they existed. | |||
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"It was discussed on this forum a while back. I said then that it was strongly suspected that the northern branch would be canned. In the industry it was reasonably common knowledge that something along these lines would happen. I understand that you're keen to blow your own trumpet, and to gloat over those that disagreed with you, but could you really not wait until the announcement was actually made? Your self-aggrandisement would be much more effective if you had actually been shown to be correct, rather than just strongly suspecting it. You’re welcome. If anyone asks, you can tell them you knew about it months ago. An industry expert told you "Who's that then? | |||
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"If they mothball the Manchester link to mitigate the costs of fuel and raw materials, I would agree with that approach. However if they scrap the Manchester link, I’m going to say that it is a disgrace, the civil servants / project managers and ministers involved in this programme of works should never be given work inside the public domain again. " The only disgrace is that it was started in the first place. White elephant vanity project using legacy Victorian technology (railway) to move people to places they don't want to go. For a fraction of the cost full fibre Internet could have been installed in every home and business in the country. This would reduce the need to travel, therefore freeing up capacity. Another fraction of the cost should have been spent improving local transport systems. That would include re-nationalising bus and rail then ensuring that they work together as an integrated system with simple and cheap tickets. | |||
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"If they mothball the Manchester link to mitigate the costs of fuel and raw materials, I would agree with that approach. However if they scrap the Manchester link, I’m going to say that it is a disgrace, the civil servants / project managers and ministers involved in this programme of works should never be given work inside the public domain again. The only disgrace is that it was started in the first place. White elephant vanity project using legacy Victorian technology (railway) to move people to places they don't want to go. For a fraction of the cost full fibre Internet could have been installed in every home and business in the country. This would reduce the need to travel, therefore freeing up capacity. Another fraction of the cost should have been spent improving local transport systems. That would include re-nationalising bus and rail then ensuring that they work together as an integrated system with simple and cheap tickets." Sound like Corbyn wasn’t mad after all  | |||
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"If they mothball the Manchester link to mitigate the costs of fuel and raw materials, I would agree with that approach. However if they scrap the Manchester link, I’m going to say that it is a disgrace, the civil servants / project managers and ministers involved in this programme of works should never be given work inside the public domain again. The only disgrace is that it was started in the first place. White elephant vanity project using legacy Victorian technology (railway) to move people to places they don't want to go. For a fraction of the cost full fibre Internet could have been installed in every home and business in the country. This would reduce the need to travel, therefore freeing up capacity. Another fraction of the cost should have been spent improving local transport systems. That would include re-nationalising bus and rail then ensuring that they work together as an integrated system with simple and cheap tickets. Sound like Corbyn wasn’t mad after all "Not totally. Just 95%. | |||
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"If they mothball the Manchester link to mitigate the costs of fuel and raw materials, I would agree with that approach. However if they scrap the Manchester link, I’m going to say that it is a disgrace, the civil servants / project managers and ministers involved in this programme of works should never be given work inside the public domain again. The only disgrace is that it was started in the first place. White elephant vanity project using legacy Victorian technology (railway) to move people to places they don't want to go. For a fraction of the cost full fibre Internet could have been installed in every home and business in the country. This would reduce the need to travel, therefore freeing up capacity. Another fraction of the cost should have been spent improving local transport systems. That would include re-nationalising bus and rail then ensuring that they work together as an integrated system with simple and cheap tickets." I get both sides of the argument on HS2, but we ended up going with it and it should be managed properly is my gripe. Starting the link to Birmingham was probably the own goal. If they had linked Newcastle to Leeds and Manchester, that would have delivered some tangible benefits even if they needed to pause. | |||
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"They’ve actually painted themselves into quite a corner now. Option A) Scrap HS2 in Manchester after days of speculation and question avoidance, and look like incompetent fools. Option B) Continue with HS2 and look like incompetent fools who caved under pressure. You'd claim that they looked like incompetent food whatever they did. I suspect that their supporters will see it rather differently. Do you see a way out of this hole where they don’t look incompetent, then? Yeah C) continue with HS2 because that was the plan all along. Would have worked if they’d said it 2 days ago. They don't have to... You don't see that because of the hatred. Nothing to do with hatred, everything to do with decent comms. If you’re definitely going ahead with the project and plan to discuss it at conference, what is the best way to deal with questions? ‘Is it true that the northern section of HS2 is to be scrapped?’ A) ‘Nonsense. Not at all’ Or B) ‘No, decisions have yet been made’ Who said they planned to discuss it at the conference? This has all come about because of 'speculation'. A rumour starts and people start asking unfounded questions. No one is under any obligation to answer those questions. What would a good media team do? You're doing really really well at avoiding questions whilst continuing to ask your own. What was it you said about good communication and straight answers? I don’t believe you asked me a question? Didn't I? You better call specsavers in the morning bud. " My bad, I missed the Q. They may not have planned pre-conference to speak in HS2, but as soon as the story broke they would have been - it’s been suspected for 2-3 days now that an announcement would be made about HS2. A decent comms team would have shut this down 48 hours ago. | |||
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"If they mothball the Manchester link to mitigate the costs of fuel and raw materials, I would agree with that approach. However if they scrap the Manchester link, I’m going to say that it is a disgrace, the civil servants / project managers and ministers involved in this programme of works should never be given work inside the public domain again. The only disgrace is that it was started in the first place. White elephant vanity project using legacy Victorian technology (railway) to move people to places they don't want to go. For a fraction of the cost full fibre Internet could have been installed in every home and business in the country. This would reduce the need to travel, therefore freeing up capacity. Another fraction of the cost should have been spent improving local transport systems. That would include re-nationalising bus and rail then ensuring that they work together as an integrated system with simple and cheap tickets." HS2 isn’t just about moving people. | |||
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"If they mothball the Manchester link to mitigate the costs of fuel and raw materials, I would agree with that approach. However if they scrap the Manchester link, I’m going to say that it is a disgrace, the civil servants / project managers and ministers involved in this programme of works should never be given work inside the public domain again. The only disgrace is that it was started in the first place. White elephant vanity project using legacy Victorian technology (railway) to move people to places they don't want to go. For a fraction of the cost full fibre Internet could have been installed in every home and business in the country. This would reduce the need to travel, therefore freeing up capacity. Another fraction of the cost should have been spent improving local transport systems. That would include re-nationalising bus and rail then ensuring that they work together as an integrated system with simple and cheap tickets. HS2 isn’t just about moving people." Really? Less demand for people movement means more capacity for freight, or am I missing something? | |||
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"If they mothball the Manchester link to mitigate the costs of fuel and raw materials, I would agree with that approach. However if they scrap the Manchester link, I’m going to say that it is a disgrace, the civil servants / project managers and ministers involved in this programme of works should never be given work inside the public domain again. The only disgrace is that it was started in the first place. White elephant vanity project using legacy Victorian technology (railway) to move people to places they don't want to go. For a fraction of the cost full fibre Internet could have been installed in every home and business in the country. This would reduce the need to travel, therefore freeing up capacity. Another fraction of the cost should have been spent improving local transport systems. That would include re-nationalising bus and rail then ensuring that they work together as an integrated system with simple and cheap tickets. HS2 isn’t just about moving people. Really? Less demand for people movement means more capacity for freight, or am I missing something?" HS2 was primarily about reducing capacity on the WCML which would increase freight capacity whilst improving passenger travel (via HS2). Now we’ll have a dogs dinner that does neither, but will make the journey from London to Birmingham a tad bit quicker. | |||
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" They may not have planned pre-conference to speak in HS2, but as soon as the story broke they would have been - it’s been suspected for 2-3 days now that an announcement would be made about HS2. A decent comms team would have shut this down 48 hours ago. " You said... "If you’re definitely going ahead with the project and plan to discuss it at conference" I said... "This has all come about because of 'speculation'" So... Now you're agreeing with me that they didn't plan to speak on it at the conference but rumours were started to get a reaction. No reaction is a reaction. Just be fucking honest about what's going on here, you want HS2 to be cancelled so you can say you were right. All I'm saying is at least wait until confirmation before gloating about it. We really don't need to keep going round the houses to get non-answers. | |||
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" They may not have planned pre-conference to speak in HS2, but as soon as the story broke they would have been - it’s been suspected for 2-3 days now that an announcement would be made about HS2. A decent comms team would have shut this down 48 hours ago. You said... "If you’re definitely going ahead with the project and plan to discuss it at conference" I said... "This has all come about because of 'speculation'" So... Now you're agreeing with me that they didn't plan to speak on it at the conference but rumours were started to get a reaction. No reaction is a reaction. Just be fucking honest about what's going on here, you want HS2 to be cancelled so you can say you were right. All I'm saying is at least wait until confirmation before gloating about it. We really don't need to keep going round the houses to get non-answers. " No I don’t want HS2 to be cancelled. HS2 is a great project. Just don’t expect me to ignore it when the tories have royally fucked it up, and their plans to get out of it leave the network in arguably a worse state than if they’d never begun. ‘No reaction is a reaction’ - indeed it is. And from a comms point of view, it’s the worst reaction. This has been a clusterfuck. | |||
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