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Hospital waiting lists
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By *melie LAL OP Woman
over a year ago
Peterborough |
The list continues on an all time high, nearly 7.7 million.
"We have met interim targets, first those waiting 2 years, and then those waiting 18 months, for procedures" says Sunak.
Cynical me thinks that would have been an NHS priority following the lockdowns, irrespective of govt targets.
Sunak says target of getting list numbers down is increasingly challenging due to strikes, and is in doubt.
Well, bloody get on and negotiate then! |
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"The list continues on an all time high, nearly 7.7 million.
"We have met interim targets, first those waiting 2 years, and then those waiting 18 months, for procedures" says Sunak.
Cynical me thinks that would have been an NHS priority following the lockdowns, irrespective of govt targets.
Sunak says target of getting list numbers down is increasingly challenging due to strikes, and is in doubt.
Well, bloody get on and negotiate then!"
What does 7.7m mean exactly? |
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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago
|
"Same old story. Waiting lists growing steadily since 2010. Blame the strikes of 2023
Or poor NHS management "
Did something suddenly change in NHS management in 2010? |
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By *otMe66Man
over a year ago
Terra Firma |
"Same old story. Waiting lists growing steadily since 2010. Blame the strikes of 2023
Or poor NHS management
Did something suddenly change in NHS management in 2010? "
I don't know but I do know the management is dire now. The clock is ticking, 10 years I reckon |
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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago
|
"Same old story. Waiting lists growing steadily since 2010. Blame the strikes of 2023
Or poor NHS management
Did something suddenly change in NHS management in 2010?
I don't know but I do know the management is dire now. The clock is ticking, 10 years I reckon"
Depends heavily on the next GE.
With any luck labour can repeat their previous heroics and undo the damage done in the last 13 years. |
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"Same old story. Waiting lists growing steadily since 2010. Blame the strikes of 2023
Or poor NHS management
Did something suddenly change in NHS management in 2010?
I don't know but I do know the management is dire now. The clock is ticking, 10 years I reckon"
For context, the waiting list almost double between 2010 and 2020 from 2.5m to 4.5m.
Since 2020 (covid) it has almost doubled again.
There were very very few waits of more a year according to the graph. Since 2020, that's no longer the case.
Its always good to look at these things in a bit more detail than 'its been increasing since the Tories' |
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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago
|
"Same old story. Waiting lists growing steadily since 2010. Blame the strikes of 2023
Or poor NHS management
Did something suddenly change in NHS management in 2010?
I don't know but I do know the management is dire now. The clock is ticking, 10 years I reckon
For context, the waiting list almost double between 2010 and 2020 from 2.5m to 4.5m.
Since 2020 (covid) it has almost doubled again.
There were very very few waits of more a year according to the graph. Since 2020, that's no longer the case.
Its always good to look at these things in a bit more detail than 'its been increasing since the Tories'"
So doubling between 2010 and 2020 is acceptable, after falling for years prior to that?
|
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By *melie LAL OP Woman
over a year ago
Peterborough |
"The list continues on an all time high, nearly 7.7 million.
"We have met interim targets, first those waiting 2 years, and then those waiting 18 months, for procedures" says Sunak.
Cynical me thinks that would have been an NHS priority following the lockdowns, irrespective of govt targets.
Sunak says target of getting list numbers down is increasingly challenging due to strikes, and is in doubt.
Well, bloody get on and negotiate then!
What does 7.7m mean exactly?"
Hey I was just listening to the news at one. Besides, what are you actually asking? The exact figure or what the list is about? |
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By *melie LAL OP Woman
over a year ago
Peterborough |
"Same old story. Waiting lists growing steadily since 2010. Blame the strikes of 2023
Or poor NHS management
Did something suddenly change in NHS management in 2010?
I don't know but I do know the management is dire now. The clock is ticking, 10 years I reckon
For context, the waiting list almost double between 2010 and 2020 from 2.5m to 4.5m.
Since 2020 (covid) it has almost doubled again.
There were very very few waits of more a year according to the graph. Since 2020, that's no longer the case.
Its always good to look at these things in a bit more detail than 'its been increasing since the Tories'"
Don't like your maths 7.7 million is a far cry from 9 million. You're better off stating a tripling of the figure since 2010.
But if we stick with what you're stating, it actually looks worse for the Tories that it doubled in 10 years and doubled again in another three. If I was a Tory supporter I'd be happy with the context of increase rather than the percentage of increase.
Re your statement of those waiting over a year, can you elaborate cos I can infer opposing thoughts from your paragraph: 1. There are no longer people waiting over a year or 2. there are loads waiting over a year. I can also infer that as there were very very few waiting over a year (year/s not stipulated), the govt (or actually the NHS) had an easy job getting those waiting 2 years or 18 months down.
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By *irldnCouple
over a year ago
Brighton |
"Same old story. Waiting lists growing steadily since 2010. Blame the strikes of 2023
Or poor NHS management
Did something suddenly change in NHS management in 2010?
I don't know but I do know the management is dire now. The clock is ticking, 10 years I reckon
For context, the waiting list almost double between 2010 and 2020 from 2.5m to 4.5m.
Since 2020 (covid) it has almost doubled again.
There were very very few waits of more a year according to the graph. Since 2020, that's no longer the case.
Its always good to look at these things in a bit more detail than 'its been increasing since the Tories'"
Agree it is always good to look in a bit more detail, but having read what you wrote the only real conclusion is surely “it’s been increasing since the Tories” right? Oh with a side order of pandemic to exacerbate but from 2.5m to 4.5m is bad enough! |
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"The list continues on an all time high, nearly 7.7 million.
"We have met interim targets, first those waiting 2 years, and then those waiting 18 months, for procedures" says Sunak.
Cynical me thinks that would have been an NHS priority following the lockdowns, irrespective of govt targets.
Sunak says target of getting list numbers down is increasingly challenging due to strikes, and is in doubt.
Well, bloody get on and negotiate then!
What does 7.7m mean exactly?
Hey I was just listening to the news at one. Besides, what are you actually asking? The exact figure or what the list is about?"
What is the list about? What does 7.7m waiting actually mean? A wait of a day? A week? etc. |
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By *otMe66Man
over a year ago
Terra Firma |
"Same old story. Waiting lists growing steadily since 2010. Blame the strikes of 2023
Or poor NHS management
Did something suddenly change in NHS management in 2010?
I don't know but I do know the management is dire now. The clock is ticking, 10 years I reckon
For context, the waiting list almost double between 2010 and 2020 from 2.5m to 4.5m.
Since 2020 (covid) it has almost doubled again.
There were very very few waits of more a year according to the graph. Since 2020, that's no longer the case.
Its always good to look at these things in a bit more detail than 'its been increasing since the Tories'
Agree it is always good to look in a bit more detail, but having read what you wrote the only real conclusion is surely “it’s been increasing since the Tories” right? Oh with a side order of pandemic to exacerbate but from 2.5m to 4.5m is bad enough!"
We will never know if the same figures would have occurred under labour, my gut feeling is they would have, but no science in that. We shall wait for next year and we will probably see how they will get on, I don't hold out much hope, the whole thing is collapsing from within |
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"Same old story. Waiting lists growing steadily since 2010. Blame the strikes of 2023
Or poor NHS management
Did something suddenly change in NHS management in 2010?
I don't know but I do know the management is dire now. The clock is ticking, 10 years I reckon
For context, the waiting list almost double between 2010 and 2020 from 2.5m to 4.5m.
Since 2020 (covid) it has almost doubled again.
There were very very few waits of more a year according to the graph. Since 2020, that's no longer the case.
Its always good to look at these things in a bit more detail than 'its been increasing since the Tories'
Don't like your maths 7.7 million is a far cry from 9 million. You're better off stating a tripling of the figure since 2010.
But if we stick with what you're stating, it actually looks worse for the Tories that it doubled in 10 years and doubled again in another three. If I was a Tory supporter I'd be happy with the context of increase rather than the percentage of increase.
Re your statement of those waiting over a year, can you elaborate cos I can infer opposing thoughts from your paragraph: 1. There are no longer people waiting over a year or 2. there are loads waiting over a year. I can also infer that as there were very very few waiting over a year (year/s not stipulated), the govt (or actually the NHS) had an easy job getting those waiting 2 years or 18 months down.
"
You don't have to like my maths, that doesn't make them incorrect 
Between 2010 & 2020 there were very few patients waiting over a year. |
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"Same old story. Waiting lists growing steadily since 2010. Blame the strikes of 2023
Or poor NHS management
Did something suddenly change in NHS management in 2010?
I don't know but I do know the management is dire now. The clock is ticking, 10 years I reckon
For context, the waiting list almost double between 2010 and 2020 from 2.5m to 4.5m.
Since 2020 (covid) it has almost doubled again.
There were very very few waits of more a year according to the graph. Since 2020, that's no longer the case.
Its always good to look at these things in a bit more detail than 'its been increasing since the Tories'
Agree it is always good to look in a bit more detail, but having read what you wrote the only real conclusion is surely “it’s been increasing since the Tories” right? Oh with a side order of pandemic to exacerbate but from 2.5m to 4.5m is bad enough!"
Of course 'it's been increasing since the Tories'.
Do we qctually know what a 'waiting list' is? Why they're having to wait? How long they're having to wait?
All of these thing may have nothing to do with the Tories but as usual NHS = Politcal Football. |
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By *ercuryMan
over a year ago
Grantham |
"Same old story. Waiting lists growing steadily since 2010. Blame the strikes of 2023
Or poor NHS management
Did something suddenly change in NHS management in 2010?
I don't know but I do know the management is dire now. The clock is ticking, 10 years I reckon
Depends heavily on the next GE.
With any luck labour can repeat their previous heroics and undo the damage done in the last 13 years. "
Rachel Reeves going to cut loose with the magic PFI credit card again then? |
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By *otMe66Man
over a year ago
Terra Firma |
"Same old story. Waiting lists growing steadily since 2010. Blame the strikes of 2023
Or poor NHS management
Did something suddenly change in NHS management in 2010?
I don't know but I do know the management is dire now. The clock is ticking, 10 years I reckon
For context, the waiting list almost double between 2010 and 2020 from 2.5m to 4.5m.
Since 2020 (covid) it has almost doubled again.
There were very very few waits of more a year according to the graph. Since 2020, that's no longer the case.
Its always good to look at these things in a bit more detail than 'its been increasing since the Tories'
Agree it is always good to look in a bit more detail, but having read what you wrote the only real conclusion is surely “it’s been increasing since the Tories” right? Oh with a side order of pandemic to exacerbate but from 2.5m to 4.5m is bad enough!
Of course 'it's been increasing since the Tories'.
Do we qctually know what a 'waiting list' is? Why they're having to wait? How long they're having to wait?
All of these thing may have nothing to do with the Tories but as usual NHS = Politcal Football."
It is raining, I blame the tories
the sun is out, I blame the tories
I'm going to be late tonight, I blame the tories.
Any plans for the weekend, no and I blame the tories.
My cream egg is smaller than it used to be, I blame the tories
|
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By *otMe66Man
over a year ago
Terra Firma |
"Same old story. Waiting lists growing steadily since 2010. Blame the strikes of 2023
Or poor NHS management
Did something suddenly change in NHS management in 2010?
I don't know but I do know the management is dire now. The clock is ticking, 10 years I reckon
Depends heavily on the next GE.
With any luck labour can repeat their previous heroics and undo the damage done in the last 13 years.
Rachel Reeves going to cut loose with the magic PFI credit card again then?"
It will be interesting to see how the economy plays out. We are pretty flat GDP to national debt today, and I have a sneaky feeling GDP will be 70% of national debt within 2 years |
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By *ony 2016Man
over a year ago
Huddersfield /derby cinemas |
Sunak recently announced a 15 year plan for our NHS , so if we keep The Tories in power until 2038 we might be back to where we were in 2010 , or to put it another way ,, 15 years to repair what they have broken in 13 years ,,, ( the extra £350million every week should help ) |
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By *melie LAL OP Woman
over a year ago
Peterborough |
"Sunak recently announced a 15 year plan for our NHS , so if we keep The Tories in power until 2038 we might be back to where we were in 2010 , or to put it another way ,, 15 years to repair what they have broken in 13 years ,,, ( the extra £350million every week should help ) "
They've promised a whopping 200 million extra for the winter season. |
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By *otMe66Man
over a year ago
Terra Firma |
"Sunak recently announced a 15 year plan for our NHS , so if we keep The Tories in power until 2038 we might be back to where we were in 2010 , or to put it another way ,, 15 years to repair what they have broken in 13 years ,,, ( the extra £350million every week should help )
They've promised a whopping 200 million extra for the winter season."
Where should the money come from and how much? |
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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago
|
"Same old story. Waiting lists growing steadily since 2010. Blame the strikes of 2023
Or poor NHS management
Did something suddenly change in NHS management in 2010?
I don't know but I do know the management is dire now. The clock is ticking, 10 years I reckon
For context, the waiting list almost double between 2010 and 2020 from 2.5m to 4.5m.
Since 2020 (covid) it has almost doubled again.
There were very very few waits of more a year according to the graph. Since 2020, that's no longer the case.
Its always good to look at these things in a bit more detail than 'its been increasing since the Tories'
Agree it is always good to look in a bit more detail, but having read what you wrote the only real conclusion is surely “it’s been increasing since the Tories” right? Oh with a side order of pandemic to exacerbate but from 2.5m to 4.5m is bad enough!
Of course 'it's been increasing since the Tories'.
Do we qctually know what a 'waiting list' is? Why they're having to wait? How long they're having to wait?
All of these thing may have nothing to do with the Tories but as usual NHS = Politcal Football.
It is raining, I blame the tories
the sun is out, I blame the tories
I'm going to be late tonight, I blame the tories.
Any plans for the weekend, no and I blame the tories.
My cream egg is smaller than it used to be, I blame the tories
"
And some people refuse to blame the tories, even when they display abject incompetence. |
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By *otMe66Man
over a year ago
Terra Firma |
"Same old story. Waiting lists growing steadily since 2010. Blame the strikes of 2023
Or poor NHS management
Did something suddenly change in NHS management in 2010?
I don't know but I do know the management is dire now. The clock is ticking, 10 years I reckon
For context, the waiting list almost double between 2010 and 2020 from 2.5m to 4.5m.
Since 2020 (covid) it has almost doubled again.
There were very very few waits of more a year according to the graph. Since 2020, that's no longer the case.
Its always good to look at these things in a bit more detail than 'its been increasing since the Tories'
Agree it is always good to look in a bit more detail, but having read what you wrote the only real conclusion is surely “it’s been increasing since the Tories” right? Oh with a side order of pandemic to exacerbate but from 2.5m to 4.5m is bad enough!
Of course 'it's been increasing since the Tories'.
Do we qctually know what a 'waiting list' is? Why they're having to wait? How long they're having to wait?
All of these thing may have nothing to do with the Tories but as usual NHS = Politcal Football.
It is raining, I blame the tories
the sun is out, I blame the tories
I'm going to be late tonight, I blame the tories.
Any plans for the weekend, no and I blame the tories.
My cream egg is smaller than it used to be, I blame the tories
And some people refuse to blame the tories, even when they display abject incompetence. "
I blame the tories for people refusing to blame tories for abject incompetence |
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By *ony 2016Man
over a year ago
Huddersfield /derby cinemas |
"Sunak recently announced a 15 year plan for our NHS , so if we keep The Tories in power until 2038 we might be back to where we were in 2010 , or to put it another way ,, 15 years to repair what they have broken in 13 years ,,, ( the extra £350million every week should help )
They've promised a whopping 200 million extra for the winter season.
Where should the money come from and how much?"
. ;,, where did the money go to and who to ? |
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By *otMe66Man
over a year ago
Terra Firma |
"To be fair, as recently as 2022 the tories were blaming labour for industrial action, so I guess anything is up for grabs these day. "
I would blame the tories for that too. I will also blame the tories for anything labour get wrong in the first 4 years. After that period when there are no more blaming the tories because of the time passed, I will vote tory to get them back into power so I can blame them for the state labour left the country in after the tories had messed it up to begin with.
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By *otMe66Man
over a year ago
Terra Firma |
"Sunak recently announced a 15 year plan for our NHS , so if we keep The Tories in power until 2038 we might be back to where we were in 2010 , or to put it another way ,, 15 years to repair what they have broken in 13 years ,,, ( the extra £350million every week should help )
They've promised a whopping 200 million extra for the winter season.
Where should the money come from and how much?. ;,, where did the money go to and who to ? "
Have you jumped forward a couple of questions? You have lost me |
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By *melie LAL OP Woman
over a year ago
Peterborough |
"To be fair, as recently as 2022 the tories were blaming labour for industrial action, so I guess anything is up for grabs these day.
I would blame the tories for that too. I will also blame the tories for anything labour get wrong in the first 4 years. After that period when there are no more blaming the tories because of the time passed, I will vote tory to get them back into power so I can blame them for the state labour left the country in after the tories had messed it up to begin with.
"
You give labour four years of grace, nice. Tories still blame Labour  |
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By *otMe66Man
over a year ago
Terra Firma |
"To be fair, as recently as 2022 the tories were blaming labour for industrial action, so I guess anything is up for grabs these day.
I would blame the tories for that too. I will also blame the tories for anything labour get wrong in the first 4 years. After that period when there are no more blaming the tories because of the time passed, I will vote tory to get them back into power so I can blame them for the state labour left the country in after the tories had messed it up to begin with.
You give labour four years of grace, nice. Tories still blame Labour "
I will blame the tories for those 4 years of grace, it must be their fault |
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By *eroy1000Man
over a year ago
milton keynes |
Not too long to wait now until the GE and then Labour can actually show one way or the other if they can fix things. The time for promises and condemnation of the current rabble is nearly over and the time to actually deliver will then be upon them |
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By *melie LAL OP Woman
over a year ago
Peterborough |
"Not too long to wait now until the GE and then Labour can actually show one way or the other if they can fix things. The time for promises and condemnation of the current rabble is nearly over and the time to actually deliver will then be upon them"
Don't expect immediate delivery. It's not just 66 who needs to give them grace, we need to give time for the economy to grow, reap the financial rewards and then the pennies can be spent. |
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Nhs waiting list 2.5M in 2010, 7.7M 2023
Foodbank meals 51,000 in 2010, 3 million in 2022
Council house waiting list 1.1M 2010, 1.6M 2023
Homelessness increased 165% since 2010
There’s a theme running here
|
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"Nhs waiting list 2.5M in 2010, 7.7M 2023
Foodbank meals 51,000 in 2010, 3 million in 2022
Council house waiting list 1.1M 2010, 1.6M 2023
Homelessness increased 165% since 2010
There’s a theme running here
"
So what is the theme people expect the government to house them feed them and make them better when so meany won't go to work and earn money that would be taxed |
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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago
|
"Nhs waiting list 2.5M in 2010, 7.7M 2023
Foodbank meals 51,000 in 2010, 3 million in 2022
Council house waiting list 1.1M 2010, 1.6M 2023
Homelessness increased 165% since 2010
There’s a theme running here
So what is the theme people expect the government to house them feed them and make them better when so meany won't go to work and earn money that would be taxed "
But (according to the govt.) we have low unemployment. Why so many homeless or using food banks? |
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"Nhs waiting list 2.5M in 2010, 7.7M 2023
Foodbank meals 51,000 in 2010, 3 million in 2022
Council house waiting list 1.1M 2010, 1.6M 2023
Homelessness increased 165% since 2010
There’s a theme running here
So what is the theme people expect the government to house them feed them and make them better when so meany won't go to work and earn money that would be taxed
But (according to the govt.) we have low unemployment. Why so many homeless or using food banks?"
Food banks are either because people aren't earning enough or benefits aren't paying enough.
Do you know the unemployment figure? |
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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago
|
"The list continues on an all time high, nearly 7.7 million.
"We have met interim targets, first those waiting 2 years, and then those waiting 18 months, for procedures" says Sunak.
Cynical me thinks that would have been an NHS priority following the lockdowns, irrespective of govt targets.
Sunak says target of getting list numbers down is increasingly challenging due to strikes, and is in doubt.
Well, bloody get on and negotiate then!
What does 7.7m mean exactly?
Hey I was just listening to the news at one. Besides, what are you actually asking? The exact figure or what the list is about?
What is the list about? What does 7.7m waiting actually mean? A wait of a day? A week? etc."
almost half are over 18 weeks. And a good few hundred thousand over a year.
Now covid played a part. But it's put gasoline on a trend that had started may years earlier.
Now that trend may not be from Tory mismanagement per se. But imo we ignore that the NHS gets hit with price inflation (medical inflation is often higher than average prices), population inflation and age inflation. "Real" increases in budget doesn't cut it. |
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By *eroy1000Man
over a year ago
milton keynes |
"Not too long to wait now until the GE and then Labour can actually show one way or the other if they can fix things. The time for promises and condemnation of the current rabble is nearly over and the time to actually deliver will then be upon them
Don't expect immediate delivery. It's not just 66 who needs to give them grace, we need to give time for the economy to grow, reap the financial rewards and then the pennies can be spent."
They have been talking the talk for long enough, now approaching is the time for them to walk the walk. |
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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago
|
"Not too long to wait now until the GE and then Labour can actually show one way or the other if they can fix things. The time for promises and condemnation of the current rabble is nearly over and the time to actually deliver will then be upon them
Don't expect immediate delivery. It's not just 66 who needs to give them grace, we need to give time for the economy to grow, reap the financial rewards and then the pennies can be spent.
They have been talking the talk for long enough, now approaching is the time for them to walk the walk."
tbf the last time they headed south was under labour. I get this is a different set of people under a different set of circumstances, but I don't get why the starting point is they are all talk on this. |
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"The list continues on an all time high, nearly 7.7 million.
"We have met interim targets, first those waiting 2 years, and then those waiting 18 months, for procedures" says Sunak.
Cynical me thinks that would have been an NHS priority following the lockdowns, irrespective of govt targets.
Sunak says target of getting list numbers down is increasingly challenging due to strikes, and is in doubt.
Well, bloody get on and negotiate then!
What does 7.7m mean exactly?
Hey I was just listening to the news at one. Besides, what are you actually asking? The exact figure or what the list is about?
What is the list about? What does 7.7m waiting actually mean? A wait of a day? A week? etc.almost half are over 18 weeks. And a good few hundred thousand over a year.
Now covid played a part. But it's put gasoline on a trend that had started may years earlier.
Now that trend may not be from Tory mismanagement per se. But imo we ignore that the NHS gets hit with price inflation (medical inflation is often higher than average prices), population inflation and age inflation. "Real" increases in budget doesn't cut it. "
Very very few, if any were waiting over a year and somewhere are 15% were waiting between 18 weeks and one year before covid.
I'm not disputing that figures have been rising since 2010 but just throwing figures out there doesn't tell a story. |
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By *ony 2016Man
over a year ago
Huddersfield /derby cinemas |
"Sunak recently announced a 15 year plan for our NHS , so if we keep The Tories in power until 2038 we might be back to where we were in 2010 , or to put it another way ,, 15 years to repair what they have broken in 13 years ,,, ( the extra £350million every week should help ) "
. ,,,,, p.s. The 40 new hospitals should also help
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By *melie LAL OP Woman
over a year ago
Peterborough |
"Not too long to wait now until the GE and then Labour can actually show one way or the other if they can fix things. The time for promises and condemnation of the current rabble is nearly over and the time to actually deliver will then be upon them
Don't expect immediate delivery. It's not just 66 who needs to give them grace, we need to give time for the economy to grow, reap the financial rewards and then the pennies can be spent.
They have been talking the talk for long enough, now approaching is the time for them to walk the walk."
When we vote them in. |
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By *melie LAL OP Woman
over a year ago
Peterborough |
"Sunak recently announced a 15 year plan for our NHS , so if we keep The Tories in power until 2038 we might be back to where we were in 2010 , or to put it another way ,, 15 years to repair what they have broken in 13 years ,,, ( the extra £350million every week should help ) . ,,,,, p.s. The 40 new hospitals should also help "
If the 40 new hospitals were extra rather than just replacing. However, we have a staffing crisis. So just how are the "extra" hospitals to be staffed? |
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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago
|
"Sunak recently announced a 15 year plan for our NHS , so if we keep The Tories in power until 2038 we might be back to where we were in 2010 , or to put it another way ,, 15 years to repair what they have broken in 13 years ,,, ( the extra £350million every week should help ) . ,,,,, p.s. The 40 new hospitals should also help
If the 40 new hospitals were extra rather than just replacing. However, we have a staffing crisis. So just how are the "extra" hospitals to be staffed?"
It’s easy to fill imaginary hospitals with imaginary staff. |
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By *eroy1000Man
over a year ago
milton keynes |
"Not too long to wait now until the GE and then Labour can actually show one way or the other if they can fix things. The time for promises and condemnation of the current rabble is nearly over and the time to actually deliver will then be upon them
Don't expect immediate delivery. It's not just 66 who needs to give them grace, we need to give time for the economy to grow, reap the financial rewards and then the pennies can be spent.
They have been talking the talk for long enough, now approaching is the time for them to walk the walk.
When we vote them in."
Yes obviously not until they are voted in which is fast approaching. Then they must deliver |
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By *melie LAL OP Woman
over a year ago
Peterborough |
"Not too long to wait now until the GE and then Labour can actually show one way or the other if they can fix things. The time for promises and condemnation of the current rabble is nearly over and the time to actually deliver will then be upon them
Don't expect immediate delivery. It's not just 66 who needs to give them grace, we need to give time for the economy to grow, reap the financial rewards and then the pennies can be spent.
They have been talking the talk for long enough, now approaching is the time for them to walk the walk.
When we vote them in.
Yes obviously not until they are voted in which is fast approaching. Then they must deliver"
Given time |
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By *irldnCouple
over a year ago
Brighton |
"Not too long to wait now until the GE and then Labour can actually show one way or the other if they can fix things. The time for promises and condemnation of the current rabble is nearly over and the time to actually deliver will then be upon them
Don't expect immediate delivery. It's not just 66 who needs to give them grace, we need to give time for the economy to grow, reap the financial rewards and then the pennies can be spent.
They have been talking the talk for long enough, now approaching is the time for them to walk the walk.
When we vote them in.
Yes obviously not until they are voted in which is fast approaching. Then they must deliver"
Just to be contrary...Labour will be inheriting a mess so they could spend 13 years blaming the Tories. |
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"Not too long to wait now until the GE and then Labour can actually show one way or the other if they can fix things. The time for promises and condemnation of the current rabble is nearly over and the time to actually deliver will then be upon them
Don't expect immediate delivery. It's not just 66 who needs to give them grace, we need to give time for the economy to grow, reap the financial rewards and then the pennies can be spent.
They have been talking the talk for long enough, now approaching is the time for them to walk the walk.
When we vote them in.
Yes obviously not until they are voted in which is fast approaching. Then they must deliver
Just to be contrary...Labour will be inheriting a mess so they could spend 13 years blaming the Tories."
That's Politics.
I'm pretty certain that Labour and their supporters will be blaming the Tories for eternity.
Just as the Tories and their supporters still blame Labour. |
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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago
|
"Not too long to wait now until the GE and then Labour can actually show one way or the other if they can fix things. The time for promises and condemnation of the current rabble is nearly over and the time to actually deliver will then be upon them
Don't expect immediate delivery. It's not just 66 who needs to give them grace, we need to give time for the economy to grow, reap the financial rewards and then the pennies can be spent.
They have been talking the talk for long enough, now approaching is the time for them to walk the walk.
When we vote them in.
Yes obviously not until they are voted in which is fast approaching. Then they must deliver
Just to be contrary...Labour will be inheriting a mess so they could spend 13 years blaming the Tories.
That's Politics.
I'm pretty certain that Labour and their supporters will be blaming the Tories for eternity.
Just as the Tories and their supporters still blame Labour. "
What were the waits like in 2010? How was the satisfaction rating of the NHS?
How is your tax burden compared to then?
Have the Tories got the national debt down while not improving the NHS? |
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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago
|
"The list continues on an all time high, nearly 7.7 million.
"We have met interim targets, first those waiting 2 years, and then those waiting 18 months, for procedures" says Sunak.
Cynical me thinks that would have been an NHS priority following the lockdowns, irrespective of govt targets.
Sunak says target of getting list numbers down is increasingly challenging due to strikes, and is in doubt.
Well, bloody get on and negotiate then!
What does 7.7m mean exactly?
Hey I was just listening to the news at one. Besides, what are you actually asking? The exact figure or what the list is about?
What is the list about? What does 7.7m waiting actually mean? A wait of a day? A week? etc.almost half are over 18 weeks. And a good few hundred thousand over a year.
Now covid played a part. But it's put gasoline on a trend that had started may years earlier.
Now that trend may not be from Tory mismanagement per se. But imo we ignore that the NHS gets hit with price inflation (medical inflation is often higher than average prices), population inflation and age inflation. "Real" increases in budget doesn't cut it.
Very very few, if any were waiting over a year and somewhere are 15% were waiting between 18 weeks and one year before covid.
I'm not disputing that figures have been rising since 2010 but just throwing figures out there doesn't tell a story. "
oh for sure. But that 15pc had grown from 5pc since about 2013. A 3x increase in 6 years (20pc pa) meant we were sitting on a timebomb. And it would not suprise me in a "what gets measured gets managed" way that the trusts were catching people just in time to avoid the 12 month mark.
Clearly covid had an impact. Although it also possibly helped reduce the number of new cases for a while.
But if you follow the "less than one year trend we'd get to about 30pc a year in the less than one year. We are at 40pc.
As such, it's easy to see most of the numbers are from where we were trending.
|
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"Not too long to wait now until the GE and then Labour can actually show one way or the other if they can fix things. The time for promises and condemnation of the current rabble is nearly over and the time to actually deliver will then be upon them
Don't expect immediate delivery. It's not just 66 who needs to give them grace, we need to give time for the economy to grow, reap the financial rewards and then the pennies can be spent.
They have been talking the talk for long enough, now approaching is the time for them to walk the walk.
When we vote them in.
Yes obviously not until they are voted in which is fast approaching. Then they must deliver
Just to be contrary...Labour will be inheriting a mess so they could spend 13 years blaming the Tories.
That's Politics.
I'm pretty certain that Labour and their supporters will be blaming the Tories for eternity.
Just as the Tories and their supporters still blame Labour.
What were the waits like in 2010? How was the satisfaction rating of the NHS?
How is your tax burden compared to then?
Have the Tories got the national debt down while not improving the NHS?"
This proves my point... |
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"The list continues on an all time high, nearly 7.7 million.
"We have met interim targets, first those waiting 2 years, and then those waiting 18 months, for procedures" says Sunak.
Cynical me thinks that would have been an NHS priority following the lockdowns, irrespective of govt targets.
Sunak says target of getting list numbers down is increasingly challenging due to strikes, and is in doubt.
Well, bloody get on and negotiate then!
What does 7.7m mean exactly?
Hey I was just listening to the news at one. Besides, what are you actually asking? The exact figure or what the list is about?
What is the list about? What does 7.7m waiting actually mean? A wait of a day? A week? etc.almost half are over 18 weeks. And a good few hundred thousand over a year.
Now covid played a part. But it's put gasoline on a trend that had started may years earlier.
Now that trend may not be from Tory mismanagement per se. But imo we ignore that the NHS gets hit with price inflation (medical inflation is often higher than average prices), population inflation and age inflation. "Real" increases in budget doesn't cut it.
Very very few, if any were waiting over a year and somewhere are 15% were waiting between 18 weeks and one year before covid.
I'm not disputing that figures have been rising since 2010 but just throwing figures out there doesn't tell a story. oh for sure. But that 15pc had grown from 5pc since about 2013. A 3x increase in 6 years (20pc pa) meant we were sitting on a timebomb. And it would not suprise me in a "what gets measured gets managed" way that the trusts were catching people just in time to avoid the 12 month mark.
Clearly covid had an impact. Although it also possibly helped reduce the number of new cases for a while.
But if you follow the "less than one year trend we'd get to about 30pc a year in the less than one year. We are at 40pc.
As such, it's easy to see most of the numbers are from where we were trending.
"
We can argue figures all day long. That 5% was actually lower than when Labour left.
No one has looked at demographics. We're all aware that there's is more people needing treatment than ever before. The scope of treatment in the NHS is greater than ever before.
As I said, I'm not disputing the figures, just that simply saying the Tories have created XYZ lists doesn't actually tell a story.
The NHS is being used as a tool as usual. |
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By *melie LAL OP Woman
over a year ago
Peterborough |
"The list continues on an all time high, nearly 7.7 million.
"We have met interim targets, first those waiting 2 years, and then those waiting 18 months, for procedures" says Sunak.
Cynical me thinks that would have been an NHS priority following the lockdowns, irrespective of govt targets.
Sunak says target of getting list numbers down is increasingly challenging due to strikes, and is in doubt.
Well, bloody get on and negotiate then!
What does 7.7m mean exactly?
Hey I was just listening to the news at one. Besides, what are you actually asking? The exact figure or what the list is about?
What is the list about? What does 7.7m waiting actually mean? A wait of a day? A week? etc.almost half are over 18 weeks. And a good few hundred thousand over a year.
Now covid played a part. But it's put gasoline on a trend that had started may years earlier.
Now that trend may not be from Tory mismanagement per se. But imo we ignore that the NHS gets hit with price inflation (medical inflation is often higher than average prices), population inflation and age inflation. "Real" increases in budget doesn't cut it.
Very very few, if any were waiting over a year and somewhere are 15% were waiting between 18 weeks and one year before covid.
I'm not disputing that figures have been rising since 2010 but just throwing figures out there doesn't tell a story. oh for sure. But that 15pc had grown from 5pc since about 2013. A 3x increase in 6 years (20pc pa) meant we were sitting on a timebomb. And it would not suprise me in a "what gets measured gets managed" way that the trusts were catching people just in time to avoid the 12 month mark.
Clearly covid had an impact. Although it also possibly helped reduce the number of new cases for a while.
But if you follow the "less than one year trend we'd get to about 30pc a year in the less than one year. We are at 40pc.
As such, it's easy to see most of the numbers are from where we were trending.
We can argue figures all day long. That 5% was actually lower than when Labour left.
No one has looked at demographics. We're all aware that there's is more people needing treatment than ever before. The scope of treatment in the NHS is greater than ever before.
As I said, I'm not disputing the figures, just that simply saying the Tories have created XYZ lists doesn't actually tell a story.
The NHS is being used as a tool as usual. "
Always will be.
The Tories puff up their chests and tell us there has never been a better funded NHS. True but they don't break it down and pro rata it re increasing population, increasing co-morbidities as people are living longer BUT not healthier. |
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By *otMe66Man
over a year ago
Terra Firma |
"Not too long to wait now until the GE and then Labour can actually show one way or the other if they can fix things. The time for promises and condemnation of the current rabble is nearly over and the time to actually deliver will then be upon them
Don't expect immediate delivery. It's not just 66 who needs to give them grace, we need to give time for the economy to grow, reap the financial rewards and then the pennies can be spent.
They have been talking the talk for long enough, now approaching is the time for them to walk the walk.
When we vote them in.
Yes obviously not until they are voted in which is fast approaching. Then they must deliver
Just to be contrary...Labour will be inheriting a mess so they could spend 13 years blaming the Tories.
That's Politics.
I'm pretty certain that Labour and their supporters will be blaming the Tories for eternity.
Just as the Tories and their supporters still blame Labour.
What were the waits like in 2010? How was the satisfaction rating of the NHS?
How is your tax burden compared to then?
Have the Tories got the national debt down while not improving the NHS?"
Yes they have |
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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago
|
"Not too long to wait now until the GE and then Labour can actually show one way or the other if they can fix things. The time for promises and condemnation of the current rabble is nearly over and the time to actually deliver will then be upon them
Don't expect immediate delivery. It's not just 66 who needs to give them grace, we need to give time for the economy to grow, reap the financial rewards and then the pennies can be spent.
They have been talking the talk for long enough, now approaching is the time for them to walk the walk.
When we vote them in.
Yes obviously not until they are voted in which is fast approaching. Then they must deliver
Just to be contrary...Labour will be inheriting a mess so they could spend 13 years blaming the Tories.
That's Politics.
I'm pretty certain that Labour and their supporters will be blaming the Tories for eternity.
Just as the Tories and their supporters still blame Labour.
What were the waits like in 2010? How was the satisfaction rating of the NHS?
How is your tax burden compared to then?
Have the Tories got the national debt down while not improving the NHS?
This proves my point..."
How?
You didn't answer a single question you can maybe answer this one.
How is me pointing out the NHS is in a significantly worse place than 2010, national debt is highest ever and the tax burden is highest ever blaming the Tories for 'eterninty'?
|
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"Not too long to wait now until the GE and then Labour can actually show one way or the other if they can fix things. The time for promises and condemnation of the current rabble is nearly over and the time to actually deliver will then be upon them
Don't expect immediate delivery. It's not just 66 who needs to give them grace, we need to give time for the economy to grow, reap the financial rewards and then the pennies can be spent.
They have been talking the talk for long enough, now approaching is the time for them to walk the walk.
When we vote them in.
Yes obviously not until they are voted in which is fast approaching. Then they must deliver
Just to be contrary...Labour will be inheriting a mess so they could spend 13 years blaming the Tories.
That's Politics.
I'm pretty certain that Labour and their supporters will be blaming the Tories for eternity.
Just as the Tories and their supporters still blame Labour.
What were the waits like in 2010? How was the satisfaction rating of the NHS?
How is your tax burden compared to then?
Have the Tories got the national debt down while not improving the NHS?
This proves my point...
How?
You didn't answer a single question you can maybe answer this one.
How is me pointing out the NHS is in a significantly worse place than 2010, national debt is highest ever and the tax burden is highest ever blaming the Tories for 'eterninty'?
"
Why ask questions you think you already know the answers to?
It doesn't matter how I answer, if it shows any positivity or context in aid of the Tories you'll spin it to.... TORIES FAULT.
|
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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago
|
"Not too long to wait now until the GE and then Labour can actually show one way or the other if they can fix things. The time for promises and condemnation of the current rabble is nearly over and the time to actually deliver will then be upon them
Don't expect immediate delivery. It's not just 66 who needs to give them grace, we need to give time for the economy to grow, reap the financial rewards and then the pennies can be spent.
They have been talking the talk for long enough, now approaching is the time for them to walk the walk.
When we vote them in.
Yes obviously not until they are voted in which is fast approaching. Then they must deliver
Just to be contrary...Labour will be inheriting a mess so they could spend 13 years blaming the Tories.
That's Politics.
I'm pretty certain that Labour and their supporters will be blaming the Tories for eternity.
Just as the Tories and their supporters still blame Labour.
What were the waits like in 2010? How was the satisfaction rating of the NHS?
How is your tax burden compared to then?
Have the Tories got the national debt down while not improving the NHS?
Yes they have"
The U.K national debt is considerably higher now than it was in 2010. |
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By *otMe66Man
over a year ago
Terra Firma |
"Not too long to wait now until the GE and then Labour can actually show one way or the other if they can fix things. The time for promises and condemnation of the current rabble is nearly over and the time to actually deliver will then be upon them
Don't expect immediate delivery. It's not just 66 who needs to give them grace, we need to give time for the economy to grow, reap the financial rewards and then the pennies can be spent.
They have been talking the talk for long enough, now approaching is the time for them to walk the walk.
When we vote them in.
Yes obviously not until they are voted in which is fast approaching. Then they must deliver
Just to be contrary...Labour will be inheriting a mess so they could spend 13 years blaming the Tories.
That's Politics.
I'm pretty certain that Labour and their supporters will be blaming the Tories for eternity.
Just as the Tories and their supporters still blame Labour.
What were the waits like in 2010? How was the satisfaction rating of the NHS?
How is your tax burden compared to then?
Have the Tories got the national debt down while not improving the NHS?
Yes they have
The U.K national debt is considerably higher now than it was in 2010."
How did it compare to GDP? |
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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago
|
"Not too long to wait now until the GE and then Labour can actually show one way or the other if they can fix things. The time for promises and condemnation of the current rabble is nearly over and the time to actually deliver will then be upon them
Don't expect immediate delivery. It's not just 66 who needs to give them grace, we need to give time for the economy to grow, reap the financial rewards and then the pennies can be spent.
They have been talking the talk for long enough, now approaching is the time for them to walk the walk.
When we vote them in.
Yes obviously not until they are voted in which is fast approaching. Then they must deliver
Just to be contrary...Labour will be inheriting a mess so they could spend 13 years blaming the Tories.
That's Politics.
I'm pretty certain that Labour and their supporters will be blaming the Tories for eternity.
Just as the Tories and their supporters still blame Labour.
What were the waits like in 2010? How was the satisfaction rating of the NHS?
How is your tax burden compared to then?
Have the Tories got the national debt down while not improving the NHS?
Yes they have
The U.K national debt is considerably higher now than it was in 2010.
How did it compare to GDP?"
The question - “Have the Tories got the national debt down while not improving the NHS?”
Your answer - “Yes they have”
You were incorrect. The national debt is higher now than it was prior to the tories taking power. Considerably so.
|
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By *otMe66Man
over a year ago
Terra Firma |
"Not too long to wait now until the GE and then Labour can actually show one way or the other if they can fix things. The time for promises and condemnation of the current rabble is nearly over and the time to actually deliver will then be upon them
Don't expect immediate delivery. It's not just 66 who needs to give them grace, we need to give time for the economy to grow, reap the financial rewards and then the pennies can be spent.
They have been talking the talk for long enough, now approaching is the time for them to walk the walk.
When we vote them in.
Yes obviously not until they are voted in which is fast approaching. Then they must deliver
Just to be contrary...Labour will be inheriting a mess so they could spend 13 years blaming the Tories.
That's Politics.
I'm pretty certain that Labour and their supporters will be blaming the Tories for eternity.
Just as the Tories and their supporters still blame Labour.
What were the waits like in 2010? How was the satisfaction rating of the NHS?
How is your tax burden compared to then?
Have the Tories got the national debt down while not improving the NHS?
This proves my point...
How?
You didn't answer a single question you can maybe answer this one.
How is me pointing out the NHS is in a significantly worse place than 2010, national debt is highest ever and the tax burden is highest ever blaming the Tories for 'eterninty'?
"
Do you understand the relationship between national debt and GDP and what it means for the economy of the country?
What is the status of that today? |
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"Not too long to wait now until the GE and then Labour can actually show one way or the other if they can fix things. The time for promises and condemnation of the current rabble is nearly over and the time to actually deliver will then be upon them
Don't expect immediate delivery. It's not just 66 who needs to give them grace, we need to give time for the economy to grow, reap the financial rewards and then the pennies can be spent.
They have been talking the talk for long enough, now approaching is the time for them to walk the walk.
When we vote them in.
Yes obviously not until they are voted in which is fast approaching. Then they must deliver
Just to be contrary...Labour will be inheriting a mess so they could spend 13 years blaming the Tories.
That's Politics.
I'm pretty certain that Labour and their supporters will be blaming the Tories for eternity.
Just as the Tories and their supporters still blame Labour.
What were the waits like in 2010? How was the satisfaction rating of the NHS?
How is your tax burden compared to then?
Have the Tories got the national debt down while not improving the NHS?
Yes they have
The U.K national debt is considerably higher now than it was in 2010.
How did it compare to GDP?
The question - “Have the Tories got the national debt down while not improving the NHS?”
Your answer - “Yes they have”
You were incorrect. The national debt is higher now than it was prior to the tories taking power. Considerably so.
"
That's because the question was phrased in a way to show 'Tories bad'.
You'll be aware that the national debt was significantly higher from when Labour took over until they left.
Why? Because debt in the UK has always increase in terms of the actual headline figure. |
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By *otMe66Man
over a year ago
Terra Firma |
"Not too long to wait now until the GE and then Labour can actually show one way or the other if they can fix things. The time for promises and condemnation of the current rabble is nearly over and the time to actually deliver will then be upon them
Don't expect immediate delivery. It's not just 66 who needs to give them grace, we need to give time for the economy to grow, reap the financial rewards and then the pennies can be spent.
They have been talking the talk for long enough, now approaching is the time for them to walk the walk.
When we vote them in.
Yes obviously not until they are voted in which is fast approaching. Then they must deliver
Just to be contrary...Labour will be inheriting a mess so they could spend 13 years blaming the Tories.
That's Politics.
I'm pretty certain that Labour and their supporters will be blaming the Tories for eternity.
Just as the Tories and their supporters still blame Labour.
What were the waits like in 2010? How was the satisfaction rating of the NHS?
How is your tax burden compared to then?
Have the Tories got the national debt down while not improving the NHS?
Yes they have
The U.K national debt is considerably higher now than it was in 2010.
How did it compare to GDP?
The question - “Have the Tories got the national debt down while not improving the NHS?”
Your answer - “Yes they have”
You were incorrect. The national debt is higher now than it was prior to the tories taking power. Considerably so.
"
Don't be silly..... you can't take a number for debt from 13 years ago and apply it to 2023 as like for like... Jeez!
Look at the management of the debt and how it compares, that is your KPI.
|
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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago
|
"Not too long to wait now until the GE and then Labour can actually show one way or the other if they can fix things. The time for promises and condemnation of the current rabble is nearly over and the time to actually deliver will then be upon them
Don't expect immediate delivery. It's not just 66 who needs to give them grace, we need to give time for the economy to grow, reap the financial rewards and then the pennies can be spent.
They have been talking the talk for long enough, now approaching is the time for them to walk the walk.
When we vote them in.
Yes obviously not until they are voted in which is fast approaching. Then they must deliver
Just to be contrary...Labour will be inheriting a mess so they could spend 13 years blaming the Tories.
That's Politics.
I'm pretty certain that Labour and their supporters will be blaming the Tories for eternity.
Just as the Tories and their supporters still blame Labour.
What were the waits like in 2010? How was the satisfaction rating of the NHS?
How is your tax burden compared to then?
Have the Tories got the national debt down while not improving the NHS?
Yes they have
The U.K national debt is considerably higher now than it was in 2010.
How did it compare to GDP?
The question - “Have the Tories got the national debt down while not improving the NHS?”
Your answer - “Yes they have”
You were incorrect. The national debt is higher now than it was prior to the tories taking power. Considerably so.
That's because the question was phrased in a way to show 'Tories bad'.
You'll be aware that the national debt was significantly higher from when Labour took over until they left.
Why? Because debt in the UK has always increase in terms of the actual headline figure. "
If someone doesn’t like the question, they shouldn’t answer it in such a cavalier fashion, then 
|
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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago
|
"Not too long to wait now until the GE and then Labour can actually show one way or the other if they can fix things. The time for promises and condemnation of the current rabble is nearly over and the time to actually deliver will then be upon them
Don't expect immediate delivery. It's not just 66 who needs to give them grace, we need to give time for the economy to grow, reap the financial rewards and then the pennies can be spent.
They have been talking the talk for long enough, now approaching is the time for them to walk the walk.
When we vote them in.
Yes obviously not until they are voted in which is fast approaching. Then they must deliver
Just to be contrary...Labour will be inheriting a mess so they could spend 13 years blaming the Tories.
That's Politics.
I'm pretty certain that Labour and their supporters will be blaming the Tories for eternity.
Just as the Tories and their supporters still blame Labour.
What were the waits like in 2010? How was the satisfaction rating of the NHS?
How is your tax burden compared to then?
Have the Tories got the national debt down while not improving the NHS?
Yes they have
The U.K national debt is considerably higher now than it was in 2010.
How did it compare to GDP?
The question - “Have the Tories got the national debt down while not improving the NHS?”
Your answer - “Yes they have”
You were incorrect. The national debt is higher now than it was prior to the tories taking power. Considerably so.
Don't be silly..... you can't take a number for debt from 13 years ago and apply it to 2023 as like for like... Jeez!
Look at the management of the debt and how it compares, that is your KPI.
"
Hey, you answered the question, got it wrong, and now want to argue the toss.
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By *otMe66Man
over a year ago
Terra Firma |
"Not too long to wait now until the GE and then Labour can actually show one way or the other if they can fix things. The time for promises and condemnation of the current rabble is nearly over and the time to actually deliver will then be upon them
Don't expect immediate delivery. It's not just 66 who needs to give them grace, we need to give time for the economy to grow, reap the financial rewards and then the pennies can be spent.
They have been talking the talk for long enough, now approaching is the time for them to walk the walk.
When we vote them in.
Yes obviously not until they are voted in which is fast approaching. Then they must deliver
Just to be contrary...Labour will be inheriting a mess so they could spend 13 years blaming the Tories.
That's Politics.
I'm pretty certain that Labour and their supporters will be blaming the Tories for eternity.
Just as the Tories and their supporters still blame Labour.
What were the waits like in 2010? How was the satisfaction rating of the NHS?
How is your tax burden compared to then?
Have the Tories got the national debt down while not improving the NHS?
Yes they have
The U.K national debt is considerably higher now than it was in 2010.
How did it compare to GDP?
The question - “Have the Tories got the national debt down while not improving the NHS?”
Your answer - “Yes they have”
You were incorrect. The national debt is higher now than it was prior to the tories taking power. Considerably so.
Don't be silly..... you can't take a number for debt from 13 years ago and apply it to 2023 as like for like... Jeez!
Look at the management of the debt and how it compares, that is your KPI.
Hey, you answered the question, got it wrong, and now want to argue the toss.
"
I give up... FFS |
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"Not too long to wait now until the GE and then Labour can actually show one way or the other if they can fix things. The time for promises and condemnation of the current rabble is nearly over and the time to actually deliver will then be upon them
Don't expect immediate delivery. It's not just 66 who needs to give them grace, we need to give time for the economy to grow, reap the financial rewards and then the pennies can be spent.
They have been talking the talk for long enough, now approaching is the time for them to walk the walk.
When we vote them in.
Yes obviously not until they are voted in which is fast approaching. Then they must deliver
Just to be contrary...Labour will be inheriting a mess so they could spend 13 years blaming the Tories.
That's Politics.
I'm pretty certain that Labour and their supporters will be blaming the Tories for eternity.
Just as the Tories and their supporters still blame Labour.
What were the waits like in 2010? How was the satisfaction rating of the NHS?
How is your tax burden compared to then?
Have the Tories got the national debt down while not improving the NHS?
Yes they have
The U.K national debt is considerably higher now than it was in 2010.
How did it compare to GDP?
The question - “Have the Tories got the national debt down while not improving the NHS?”
Your answer - “Yes they have”
You were incorrect. The national debt is higher now than it was prior to the tories taking power. Considerably so.
That's because the question was phrased in a way to show 'Tories bad'.
You'll be aware that the national debt was significantly higher from when Labour took over until they left.
Why? Because debt in the UK has always increase in terms of the actual headline figure.
If someone doesn’t like the question, they shouldn’t answer it in such a cavalier fashion, then
"
Why not just be honest with the question.
As I said, it was phrased in a way that could only go one way. That doesn't help debate, although I'm not sure anyone who hates the Tories are actually interested in understanding. |
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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago
|
"Not too long to wait now until the GE and then Labour can actually show one way or the other if they can fix things. The time for promises and condemnation of the current rabble is nearly over and the time to actually deliver will then be upon them
Don't expect immediate delivery. It's not just 66 who needs to give them grace, we need to give time for the economy to grow, reap the financial rewards and then the pennies can be spent.
They have been talking the talk for long enough, now approaching is the time for them to walk the walk.
When we vote them in.
Yes obviously not until they are voted in which is fast approaching. Then they must deliver
Just to be contrary...Labour will be inheriting a mess so they could spend 13 years blaming the Tories.
That's Politics.
I'm pretty certain that Labour and their supporters will be blaming the Tories for eternity.
Just as the Tories and their supporters still blame Labour.
What were the waits like in 2010? How was the satisfaction rating of the NHS?
How is your tax burden compared to then?
Have the Tories got the national debt down while not improving the NHS?
Yes they have
The U.K national debt is considerably higher now than it was in 2010.
How did it compare to GDP?
The question - “Have the Tories got the national debt down while not improving the NHS?”
Your answer - “Yes they have”
You were incorrect. The national debt is higher now than it was prior to the tories taking power. Considerably so.
That's because the question was phrased in a way to show 'Tories bad'.
You'll be aware that the national debt was significantly higher from when Labour took over until they left.
Why? Because debt in the UK has always increase in terms of the actual headline figure.
If someone doesn’t like the question, they shouldn’t answer it in such a cavalier fashion, then
Can you say you are wrong? "
I have done, where I’ve been wrong. |
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By *otMe66Man
over a year ago
Terra Firma |
"Not too long to wait now until the GE and then Labour can actually show one way or the other if they can fix things. The time for promises and condemnation of the current rabble is nearly over and the time to actually deliver will then be upon them
Don't expect immediate delivery. It's not just 66 who needs to give them grace, we need to give time for the economy to grow, reap the financial rewards and then the pennies can be spent.
They have been talking the talk for long enough, now approaching is the time for them to walk the walk.
When we vote them in.
Yes obviously not until they are voted in which is fast approaching. Then they must deliver
Just to be contrary...Labour will be inheriting a mess so they could spend 13 years blaming the Tories.
That's Politics.
I'm pretty certain that Labour and their supporters will be blaming the Tories for eternity.
Just as the Tories and their supporters still blame Labour.
What were the waits like in 2010? How was the satisfaction rating of the NHS?
How is your tax burden compared to then?
Have the Tories got the national debt down while not improving the NHS?
Yes they have
The U.K national debt is considerably higher now than it was in 2010.
How did it compare to GDP?
The question - “Have the Tories got the national debt down while not improving the NHS?”
Your answer - “Yes they have”
You were incorrect. The national debt is higher now than it was prior to the tories taking power. Considerably so.
That's because the question was phrased in a way to show 'Tories bad'.
You'll be aware that the national debt was significantly higher from when Labour took over until they left.
Why? Because debt in the UK has always increase in terms of the actual headline figure.
If someone doesn’t like the question, they shouldn’t answer it in such a cavalier fashion, then
Can you say you are wrong?
I have done, where I’ve been wrong. "
Like I said above, I give up... |
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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago
|
"Not too long to wait now until the GE and then Labour can actually show one way or the other if they can fix things. The time for promises and condemnation of the current rabble is nearly over and the time to actually deliver will then be upon them
Don't expect immediate delivery. It's not just 66 who needs to give them grace, we need to give time for the economy to grow, reap the financial rewards and then the pennies can be spent.
They have been talking the talk for long enough, now approaching is the time for them to walk the walk.
When we vote them in.
Yes obviously not until they are voted in which is fast approaching. Then they must deliver
Just to be contrary...Labour will be inheriting a mess so they could spend 13 years blaming the Tories.
That's Politics.
I'm pretty certain that Labour and their supporters will be blaming the Tories for eternity.
Just as the Tories and their supporters still blame Labour.
What were the waits like in 2010? How was the satisfaction rating of the NHS?
How is your tax burden compared to then?
Have the Tories got the national debt down while not improving the NHS?
Yes they have
The U.K national debt is considerably higher now than it was in 2010.
How did it compare to GDP?
The question - “Have the Tories got the national debt down while not improving the NHS?”
Your answer - “Yes they have”
You were incorrect. The national debt is higher now than it was prior to the tories taking power. Considerably so.
That's because the question was phrased in a way to show 'Tories bad'.
You'll be aware that the national debt was significantly higher from when Labour took over until they left.
Why? Because debt in the UK has always increase in terms of the actual headline figure.
If someone doesn’t like the question, they shouldn’t answer it in such a cavalier fashion, then
Can you say you are wrong?
I have done, where I’ve been wrong.
Like I said above, I give up..."
Cool. Easier than admitting that on this occasion you were incorrect, I guess. |
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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago
|
"Not too long to wait now until the GE and then Labour can actually show one way or the other if they can fix things. The time for promises and condemnation of the current rabble is nearly over and the time to actually deliver will then be upon them
Don't expect immediate delivery. It's not just 66 who needs to give them grace, we need to give time for the economy to grow, reap the financial rewards and then the pennies can be spent.
They have been talking the talk for long enough, now approaching is the time for them to walk the walk.
When we vote them in.
Yes obviously not until they are voted in which is fast approaching. Then they must deliver
Just to be contrary...Labour will be inheriting a mess so they could spend 13 years blaming the Tories.
That's Politics.
I'm pretty certain that Labour and their supporters will be blaming the Tories for eternity.
Just as the Tories and their supporters still blame Labour.
What were the waits like in 2010? How was the satisfaction rating of the NHS?
How is your tax burden compared to then?
Have the Tories got the national debt down while not improving the NHS?
Yes they have
The U.K national debt is considerably higher now than it was in 2010.
How did it compare to GDP?
The question - “Have the Tories got the national debt down while not improving the NHS?”
Your answer - “Yes they have”
You were incorrect. The national debt is higher now than it was prior to the tories taking power. Considerably so.
That's because the question was phrased in a way to show 'Tories bad'.
You'll be aware that the national debt was significantly higher from when Labour took over until they left.
Why? Because debt in the UK has always increase in terms of the actual headline figure. "
I'm well aware national debt went up, however austerity...rishi sunaks pledge at least the NHS was improving in those years we had something to show for the debt and tax burden. |
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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago
|
The thing is, national debt/deficit aren’t inherently bad - regardless of what tories will tell you. Basically every civilised nation in the irks operates a deficit - it’s how stuff gets built, it’s how services are provided. You can’t run a country like you run a household account.
That’s why austerity was wrong in 2010, and that why we are where we are now, with services slashed and nothing to show for it. |
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"Not too long to wait now until the GE and then Labour can actually show one way or the other if they can fix things. The time for promises and condemnation of the current rabble is nearly over and the time to actually deliver will then be upon them
Don't expect immediate delivery. It's not just 66 who needs to give them grace, we need to give time for the economy to grow, reap the financial rewards and then the pennies can be spent.
They have been talking the talk for long enough, now approaching is the time for them to walk the walk.
When we vote them in.
Yes obviously not until they are voted in which is fast approaching. Then they must deliver
Just to be contrary...Labour will be inheriting a mess so they could spend 13 years blaming the Tories.
That's Politics.
I'm pretty certain that Labour and their supporters will be blaming the Tories for eternity.
Just as the Tories and their supporters still blame Labour.
What were the waits like in 2010? How was the satisfaction rating of the NHS?
How is your tax burden compared to then?
Have the Tories got the national debt down while not improving the NHS?
Yes they have
The U.K national debt is considerably higher now than it was in 2010.
How did it compare to GDP?
The question - “Have the Tories got the national debt down while not improving the NHS?”
Your answer - “Yes they have”
You were incorrect. The national debt is higher now than it was prior to the tories taking power. Considerably so.
That's because the question was phrased in a way to show 'Tories bad'.
You'll be aware that the national debt was significantly higher from when Labour took over until they left.
Why? Because debt in the UK has always increase in terms of the actual headline figure.
I'm well aware national debt went up, however austerity...rishi sunaks pledge at least the NHS was improving in those years we had something to show for the debt and tax burden."
Zero context. Bithe UK's debt and tax burden is significantly lower than G7 averages.
Do you know why? Or is it the Tories fault that all of those countries are also struggling? |
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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago
|
"The thing is, national debt/deficit aren’t inherently bad - regardless of what tories will tell you. Basically every civilised nation in the irks operates a deficit - it’s how stuff gets built, it’s how services are provided. You can’t run a country like you run a household account.
That’s why austerity was wrong in 2010, and that why we are where we are now, with services slashed and nothing to show for it. "
Yeah totally agree on this, also a reason why Sunaks 5 promises are going to be unattainable as they run against each other. |
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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago
|
"Not too long to wait now until the GE and then Labour can actually show one way or the other if they can fix things. The time for promises and condemnation of the current rabble is nearly over and the time to actually deliver will then be upon them
Don't expect immediate delivery. It's not just 66 who needs to give them grace, we need to give time for the economy to grow, reap the financial rewards and then the pennies can be spent.
They have been talking the talk for long enough, now approaching is the time for them to walk the walk.
When we vote them in.
Yes obviously not until they are voted in which is fast approaching. Then they must deliver
Just to be contrary...Labour will be inheriting a mess so they could spend 13 years blaming the Tories.
That's Politics.
I'm pretty certain that Labour and their supporters will be blaming the Tories for eternity.
Just as the Tories and their supporters still blame Labour.
What were the waits like in 2010? How was the satisfaction rating of the NHS?
How is your tax burden compared to then?
Have the Tories got the national debt down while not improving the NHS?
Yes they have
The U.K national debt is considerably higher now than it was in 2010.
How did it compare to GDP?
The question - “Have the Tories got the national debt down while not improving the NHS?”
Your answer - “Yes they have”
You were incorrect. The national debt is higher now than it was prior to the tories taking power. Considerably so.
That's because the question was phrased in a way to show 'Tories bad'.
You'll be aware that the national debt was significantly higher from when Labour took over until they left.
Why? Because debt in the UK has always increase in terms of the actual headline figure.
I'm well aware national debt went up, however austerity...rishi sunaks pledge at least the NHS was improving in those years we had something to show for the debt and tax burden.
Zero context. Bithe UK's debt and tax burden is significantly lower than G7 averages.
Do you know why? Or is it the Tories fault that all of those countries are also struggling?"
I have no problem with national dept Rishi Sunak does also are those other countries health services falling apart? |
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"The thing is, national debt/deficit aren’t inherently bad - regardless of what tories will tell you. Basically every civilised nation in the irks operates a deficit - it’s how stuff gets built, it’s how services are provided. You can’t run a country like you run a household account.
That’s why austerity was wrong in 2010, and that why we are where we are now, with services slashed and nothing to show for it.
Yeah totally agree on this, also a reason why Sunaks 5 promises are going to be unattainable as they run against each other."
You agree yet have spent all morning talking about tax burden and debt.
You really couldn't make this shit up sometimes
It amazing how someone's opinion changes when someone they perceive to be on their side pipes up  |
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By *irldnCouple
over a year ago
Brighton |
"Not too long to wait now until the GE and then Labour can actually show one way or the other if they can fix things. The time for promises and condemnation of the current rabble is nearly over and the time to actually deliver will then be upon them
Don't expect immediate delivery. It's not just 66 who needs to give them grace, we need to give time for the economy to grow, reap the financial rewards and then the pennies can be spent.
They have been talking the talk for long enough, now approaching is the time for them to walk the walk.
When we vote them in.
Yes obviously not until they are voted in which is fast approaching. Then they must deliver
Just to be contrary...Labour will be inheriting a mess so they could spend 13 years blaming the Tories.
That's Politics.
I'm pretty certain that Labour and their supporters will be blaming the Tories for eternity.
Just as the Tories and their supporters still blame Labour. "
Yep *sigh* and whatever nuance or detail to support any claims/blame is diluted by the media in the search for clickbait headlines.
Be so nice to see some mature debate rather than willy waving finger pointing.
A. The situation is this because of that.
B. The way we can address that is to do this but it will mean we cannot do that.
C. We think this is a priority over that, if you agree vote for us/support us! |
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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago
|
"The thing is, national debt/deficit aren’t inherently bad - regardless of what tories will tell you. Basically every civilised nation in the irks operates a deficit - it’s how stuff gets built, it’s how services are provided. You can’t run a country like you run a household account.
That’s why austerity was wrong in 2010, and that why we are where we are now, with services slashed and nothing to show for it.
Yeah totally agree on this, also a reason why Sunaks 5 promises are going to be unattainable as they run against each other.
You agree yet have spent all morning talking about tax burden and debt.
You really couldn't make this shit up sometimes
It amazing how someone's opinion changes when someone they perceive to be on their side pipes up "
All morning!? You've not mentioned tax at all just national debt I also prior out prior to that it was Rishi's stop trying to frame things it's all above.
Just like that time you got imports and exports mixed up and actually admitted you were wrong |
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"Not too long to wait now until the GE and then Labour can actually show one way or the other if they can fix things. The time for promises and condemnation of the current rabble is nearly over and the time to actually deliver will then be upon them
Don't expect immediate delivery. It's not just 66 who needs to give them grace, we need to give time for the economy to grow, reap the financial rewards and then the pennies can be spent.
They have been talking the talk for long enough, now approaching is the time for them to walk the walk.
When we vote them in.
Yes obviously not until they are voted in which is fast approaching. Then they must deliver
Just to be contrary...Labour will be inheriting a mess so they could spend 13 years blaming the Tories.
That's Politics.
I'm pretty certain that Labour and their supporters will be blaming the Tories for eternity.
Just as the Tories and their supporters still blame Labour.
Yep *sigh* and whatever nuance or detail to support any claims/blame is diluted by the media in the search for clickbait headlines.
Be so nice to see some mature debate rather than willy waving finger pointing.
A. The situation is this because of that.
B. The way we can address that is to do this but it will mean we cannot do that.
C. We think this is a priority over that, if you agree vote for us/support us!"
You and I both know 'mature debate' is never going to happen. Not in parliament nor these forums. |
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"The thing is, national debt/deficit aren’t inherently bad - regardless of what tories will tell you. Basically every civilised nation in the irks operates a deficit - it’s how stuff gets built, it’s how services are provided. You can’t run a country like you run a household account.
That’s why austerity was wrong in 2010, and that why we are where we are now, with services slashed and nothing to show for it.
Yeah totally agree on this, also a reason why Sunaks 5 promises are going to be unattainable as they run against each other.
You agree yet have spent all morning talking about tax burden and debt.
You really couldn't make this shit up sometimes
It amazing how someone's opinion changes when someone they perceive to be on their side pipes up
All morning!? You've not mentioned tax at all just national debt I also prior out prior to that it was Rishi's stop trying to frame things it's all above.
Just like that time you got imports and exports mixed up and actually admitted you were wrong "
Why are you now trying to gaslight me?
Someone's export is someone else's import is what I said if I remember rightly
As per usual, trying to score points. Off you trot mate, this conversation is pointless. |
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"How is your tax burden compared to then?"
I can answer that one, it's stayed exactly the same.
But I assume that when you said "your tax burden" you weren't asking about me personally, in which case the answer is that it's gone down very slightly (for women).
Unless you were also asking about UK companies, in which case it's gone down very slightly (for small companies with less than £50k profits).
Does that answer your question? |
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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago
|
"The thing is, national debt/deficit aren’t inherently bad - regardless of what tories will tell you. Basically every civilised nation in the irks operates a deficit - it’s how stuff gets built, it’s how services are provided. You can’t run a country like you run a household account.
That’s why austerity was wrong in 2010, and that why we are where we are now, with services slashed and nothing to show for it.
Yeah totally agree on this, also a reason why Sunaks 5 promises are going to be unattainable as they run against each other.
You agree yet have spent all morning talking about tax burden and debt.
You really couldn't make this shit up sometimes
It amazing how someone's opinion changes when someone they perceive to be on their side pipes up
All morning!? You've not mentioned tax at all just national debt I also prior out prior to that it was Rishi's stop trying to frame things it's all above.
Just like that time you got imports and exports mixed up and actually admitted you were wrong
Why are you now trying to gaslight me?
Someone's export is someone else's import is what I said if I remember rightly
As per usual, trying to score points. Off you trot mate, this conversation is pointless. "
You were fundamentally mixing up 2 different things that totally undermine your argument importing from China to exporting to the EU.
|
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By *irldnCouple
over a year ago
Brighton |
I kind of don’t get the “don’t blame the Tories” argument though. Not after 13 years. I get in in the first parliamentary term as it can be argued they needed to undo the mess of a previous govt (not getting into whether that is true or not, but it will be the Labour line if they win GE, and is par for the course), but since then? I think it is highly appropriate to blame the govt if they have been in control for 13 years. Who else’s fault is it?
Obviously there will be exogenous events that have an impact, but that is the job of govt to manage the country through good and bad times. Don’t really see why one wouldn’t blame the govt?
If Labour are in for multiple terms, and if things are shit, you can be damned sure people will be blaming them. I will! |
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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago
|
"How is your tax burden compared to then?
I can answer that one, it's stayed exactly the same.
But I assume that when you said "your tax burden" you weren't asking about me personally, in which case the answer is that it's gone down very slightly (for women).
Unless you were also asking about UK companies, in which case it's gone down very slightly (for small companies with less than £50k profits).
Does that answer your question?"
You are a male though?? |
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"The thing is, national debt/deficit aren’t inherently bad - regardless of what tories will tell you. Basically every civilised nation in the irks operates a deficit - it’s how stuff gets built, it’s how services are provided. You can’t run a country like you run a household account.
That’s why austerity was wrong in 2010, and that why we are where we are now, with services slashed and nothing to show for it.
Yeah totally agree on this, also a reason why Sunaks 5 promises are going to be unattainable as they run against each other.
You agree yet have spent all morning talking about tax burden and debt.
You really couldn't make this shit up sometimes
It amazing how someone's opinion changes when someone they perceive to be on their side pipes up
All morning!? You've not mentioned tax at all just national debt I also prior out prior to that it was Rishi's stop trying to frame things it's all above.
Just like that time you got imports and exports mixed up and actually admitted you were wrong
Why are you now trying to gaslight me?
Someone's export is someone else's import is what I said if I remember rightly
As per usual, trying to score points. Off you trot mate, this conversation is pointless.
You were fundamentally mixing up 2 different things that totally undermine your argument importing from China to exporting to the EU.
"
I'm not going over this bollocks again. If you don't understand what I was saying that's your problem.
Someone's export is someone else's import. Its really really simple. |
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By *irldnCouple
over a year ago
Brighton |
"How is your tax burden compared to then?
I can answer that one, it's stayed exactly the same.
But I assume that when you said "your tax burden" you weren't asking about me personally, in which case the answer is that it's gone down very slightly (for women).
Unless you were also asking about UK companies, in which case it's gone down very slightly (for small companies with less than £50k profits).
Does that answer your question?"
Not going to run the numbers but is that actually true? Frozen thresholds means more people fall into higher tax bands (if they get income increases) so the tax burden increases no? Hasn’t corp tax rate now increased? I’m sure if a tax expert were to examine all the “stealth taxes” we would see an overall increase. |
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"How is your tax burden compared to then?"
"I can answer that one, it's stayed exactly the same.
But I assume that when you said "your tax burden" you weren't asking about me personally, in which case the answer is that it's gone down very slightly (for women).
Unless you were also asking about UK companies, in which case it's gone down very slightly (for small companies with less than £50k profits).
Does that answer your question?"
"You are a male though??"
Yes, that's why I said that it had stayed exactly the same. It looks like I should have been clearer in my second paragraph that I was saying that the tax burden had gone down very slightly for the entire UK populace. |
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"I kind of don’t get the “don’t blame the Tories” argument though. Not after 13 years. I get in in the first parliamentary term as it can be argued they needed to undo the mess of a previous govt (not getting into whether that is true or not, but it will be the Labour line if they win GE, and is par for the course), but since then? I think it is highly appropriate to blame the govt if they have been in control for 13 years. Who else’s fault is it?
Obviously there will be exogenous events that have an impact, but that is the job of govt to manage the country through good and bad times. Don’t really see why one wouldn’t blame the govt?
If Labour are in for multiple terms, and if things are shit, you can be damned sure people will be blaming them. I will!"
I certainly haven't ever said 'don't blame the Tories'. I ask for things to be looked at with context.
It would seem no one is capable off doing that. |
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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago
|
"How is your tax burden compared to then?
I can answer that one, it's stayed exactly the same.
But I assume that when you said "your tax burden" you weren't asking about me personally, in which case the answer is that it's gone down very slightly (for women).
Unless you were also asking about UK companies, in which case it's gone down very slightly (for small companies with less than £50k profits).
Does that answer your question?
You are a male though??
Yes, that's why I said that it had stayed exactly the same. It looks like I should have been clearer in my second paragraph that I was saying that the tax burden had gone down very slightly for the entire UK populace."
Do you have figures for that? I'm pretty sure the burden is the highest it's ever been against GDP |
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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago
|
"I kind of don’t get the “don’t blame the Tories” argument though. Not after 13 years. I get in in the first parliamentary term as it can be argued they needed to undo the mess of a previous govt (not getting into whether that is true or not, but it will be the Labour line if they win GE, and is par for the course), but since then? I think it is highly appropriate to blame the govt if they have been in control for 13 years. Who else’s fault is it?
Obviously there will be exogenous events that have an impact, but that is the job of govt to manage the country through good and bad times. Don’t really see why one wouldn’t blame the govt?
If Labour are in for multiple terms, and if things are shit, you can be damned sure people will be blaming them. I will!
I certainly haven't ever said 'don't blame the Tories'. I ask for things to be looked at with context.
It would seem no one is capable off doing that. "
What context, it would seem you just using the old, "their all as bad as each other" wrapped up as, "some people will always blame the Tories and some labour" |
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"I kind of don’t get the “don’t blame the Tories” argument though. Not after 13 years. I get in in the first parliamentary term as it can be argued they needed to undo the mess of a previous govt (not getting into whether that is true or not, but it will be the Labour line if they win GE, and is par for the course), but since then? I think it is highly appropriate to blame the govt if they have been in control for 13 years. Who else’s fault is it?
Obviously there will be exogenous events that have an impact, but that is the job of govt to manage the country through good and bad times. Don’t really see why one wouldn’t blame the govt?
If Labour are in for multiple terms, and if things are shit, you can be damned sure people will be blaming them. I will!
I certainly haven't ever said 'don't blame the Tories'. I ask for things to be looked at with context.
It would seem no one is capable off doing that.
What context, it would seem you just using the old, "their all as bad as each other" wrapped up as, "some people will always blame the Tories and some labour""
You're either new round here or incapable of reading. I suggest you go for a stroll and you'll see |
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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago
|
"The thing is, national debt/deficit aren’t inherently bad - regardless of what tories will tell you. Basically every civilised nation in the irks operates a deficit - it’s how stuff gets built, it’s how services are provided. You can’t run a country like you run a household account.
That’s why austerity was wrong in 2010, and that why we are where we are now, with services slashed and nothing to show for it.
Yeah totally agree on this, also a reason why Sunaks 5 promises are going to be unattainable as they run against each other.
You agree yet have spent all morning talking about tax burden and debt.
You really couldn't make this shit up sometimes
It amazing how someone's opinion changes when someone they perceive to be on their side pipes up
All morning!? You've not mentioned tax at all just national debt I also prior out prior to that it was Rishi's stop trying to frame things it's all above.
Just like that time you got imports and exports mixed up and actually admitted you were wrong
Why are you now trying to gaslight me?
Someone's export is someone else's import is what I said if I remember rightly
As per usual, trying to score points. Off you trot mate, this conversation is pointless.
You were fundamentally mixing up 2 different things that totally undermine your argument importing from China to exporting to the EU.
I'm not going over this bollocks again. If you don't understand what I was saying that's your problem.
Someone's export is someone else's import. Its really really simple. "
One was subject to paperwork the other wasn't, you eventually admitted you were wrong in the thread, I ll go back and find it if you want. |
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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago
|
"I kind of don’t get the “don’t blame the Tories” argument though. Not after 13 years. I get in in the first parliamentary term as it can be argued they needed to undo the mess of a previous govt (not getting into whether that is true or not, but it will be the Labour line if they win GE, and is par for the course), but since then? I think it is highly appropriate to blame the govt if they have been in control for 13 years. Who else’s fault is it?
Obviously there will be exogenous events that have an impact, but that is the job of govt to manage the country through good and bad times. Don’t really see why one wouldn’t blame the govt?
If Labour are in for multiple terms, and if things are shit, you can be damned sure people will be blaming them. I will!
I certainly haven't ever said 'don't blame the Tories'. I ask for things to be looked at with context.
It would seem no one is capable off doing that.
What context, it would seem you just using the old, "their all as bad as each other" wrapped up as, "some people will always blame the Tories and some labour"
You're either new round here or incapable of reading. I suggest you go for a stroll and you'll see "
So you didn't say some people will always blame the other party?
Seriously what was the context then?
Or you just going to tell me the stroll again? |
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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago
|
"The list continues on an all time high, nearly 7.7 million.
"We have met interim targets, first those waiting 2 years, and then those waiting 18 months, for procedures" says Sunak.
Cynical me thinks that would have been an NHS priority following the lockdowns, irrespective of govt targets.
Sunak says target of getting list numbers down is increasingly challenging due to strikes, and is in doubt.
Well, bloody get on and negotiate then!
What does 7.7m mean exactly?
Hey I was just listening to the news at one. Besides, what are you actually asking? The exact figure or what the list is about?
What is the list about? What does 7.7m waiting actually mean? A wait of a day? A week? etc.almost half are over 18 weeks. And a good few hundred thousand over a year.
Now covid played a part. But it's put gasoline on a trend that had started may years earlier.
Now that trend may not be from Tory mismanagement per se. But imo we ignore that the NHS gets hit with price inflation (medical inflation is often higher than average prices), population inflation and age inflation. "Real" increases in budget doesn't cut it.
Very very few, if any were waiting over a year and somewhere are 15% were waiting between 18 weeks and one year before covid.
I'm not disputing that figures have been rising since 2010 but just throwing figures out there doesn't tell a story. oh for sure. But that 15pc had grown from 5pc since about 2013. A 3x increase in 6 years (20pc pa) meant we were sitting on a timebomb. And it would not suprise me in a "what gets measured gets managed" way that the trusts were catching people just in time to avoid the 12 month mark.
Clearly covid had an impact. Although it also possibly helped reduce the number of new cases for a while.
But if you follow the "less than one year trend we'd get to about 30pc a year in the less than one year. We are at 40pc.
As such, it's easy to see most of the numbers are from where we were trending.
We can argue figures all day long. That 5% was actually lower than when Labour left.
No one has looked at demographics. We're all aware that there's is more people needing treatment than ever before. The scope of treatment in the NHS is greater than ever before.
As I said, I'm not disputing the figures, just that simply saying the Tories have created XYZ lists doesn't actually tell a story.
The NHS is being used as a tool as usual. "
we are entirly on on different pages.
I agree that the strain on NHS increase over time... they have what I have described as triple inflation.
But that is known and can be planned for. It hasn't. Part of setting the NHS budget should be looking at these demographics. If they haven't, that's on the government.
I also agree the numbers are lower than when labour left. But labour left them on a downwards trend.
And the first post labour government was a coalition.
I could also support a case that Cameron was a better guardian of NHS than the later iteartions of the Tories. I have no idea if this is true .. but do believe it is wrong to put all falvours of blue into one bucket. Each generation is different.
If you are in government you have a degree of control. Exceptional events, I will let off somewhat. But demographics is basic planning. Albeit hard decisions.
See also: state pension.
|
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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago
|
"How is your tax burden compared to then?
I can answer that one, it's stayed exactly the same.
But I assume that when you said "your tax burden" you weren't asking about me personally, in which case the answer is that it's gone down very slightly (for women).
Unless you were also asking about UK companies, in which case it's gone down very slightly (for small companies with less than £50k profits).
Does that answer your question?
You are a male though??
Yes, that's why I said that it had stayed exactly the same. It looks like I should have been clearer in my second paragraph that I was saying that the tax burden had gone down very slightly for the entire UK populace.
Do you have figures for that? I'm pretty sure the burden is the highest it's ever been against GDP"
In June debt was 100.1% of GDP. Highest since 1961. |
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"Not going to run the numbers but is that actually true? Frozen thresholds means more people fall into higher tax bands (if they get income increases) so the tax burden increases no? Hasn’t corp tax rate now increased? I’m sure if a tax expert were to examine all the “stealth taxes” we would see an overall increase."
Yes, it's actually true. There were years of frozen thresholds, but there were also years of large jumps. Corporation tax has increased recently, but it's still lower than it was in 2010 (which is what the person asked).
You can always argue about stealth taxes, making a case either way, but those will always be small changes. The vast majority of taxation come from the basic tax burden of income/profits taxing and VAT, which has dropped slightly since 2010.
Unless you're a smoker, in which case your personal tax burden will have increased a bit. |
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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago
|
"Not going to run the numbers but is that actually true? Frozen thresholds means more people fall into higher tax bands (if they get income increases) so the tax burden increases no? Hasn’t corp tax rate now increased? I’m sure if a tax expert were to examine all the “stealth taxes” we would see an overall increase.
Yes, it's actually true. There were years of frozen thresholds, but there were also years of large jumps. Corporation tax has increased recently, but it's still lower than it was in 2010 (which is what the person asked).
You can always argue about stealth taxes, making a case either way, but those will always be small changes. The vast majority of taxation come from the basic tax burden of income/profits taxing and VAT, which has dropped slightly since 2010.
Unless you're a smoker, in which case your personal tax burden will have increased a bit."
Why is the overall tax burden Vs GDP at its highest level ever? |
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"I kind of don’t get the “don’t blame the Tories” argument though. Not after 13 years."
Is anyone saying "don't blame the Tories"? With the exception of CoViD, which definitely started elsewhere, I don't see anyone claiming that it's someone else's fault. |
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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago
|
"I kind of don’t get the “don’t blame the Tories” argument though. Not after 13 years.
Is anyone saying "don't blame the Tories"? With the exception of CoViD, which definitely started elsewhere, I don't see anyone claiming that it's someone else's fault."
Well, the tories have said exactly that |
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"The list continues on an all time high, nearly 7.7 million.
"We have met interim targets, first those waiting 2 years, and then those waiting 18 months, for procedures" says Sunak.
Cynical me thinks that would have been an NHS priority following the lockdowns, irrespective of govt targets.
Sunak says target of getting list numbers down is increasingly challenging due to strikes, and is in doubt.
Well, bloody get on and negotiate then!
What does 7.7m mean exactly?
Hey I was just listening to the news at one. Besides, what are you actually asking? The exact figure or what the list is about?
What is the list about? What does 7.7m waiting actually mean? A wait of a day? A week? etc.almost half are over 18 weeks. And a good few hundred thousand over a year.
Now covid played a part. But it's put gasoline on a trend that had started may years earlier.
Now that trend may not be from Tory mismanagement per se. But imo we ignore that the NHS gets hit with price inflation (medical inflation is often higher than average prices), population inflation and age inflation. "Real" increases in budget doesn't cut it.
Very very few, if any were waiting over a year and somewhere are 15% were waiting between 18 weeks and one year before covid.
I'm not disputing that figures have been rising since 2010 but just throwing figures out there doesn't tell a story. oh for sure. But that 15pc had grown from 5pc since about 2013. A 3x increase in 6 years (20pc pa) meant we were sitting on a timebomb. And it would not suprise me in a "what gets measured gets managed" way that the trusts were catching people just in time to avoid the 12 month mark.
Clearly covid had an impact. Although it also possibly helped reduce the number of new cases for a while.
But if you follow the "less than one year trend we'd get to about 30pc a year in the less than one year. We are at 40pc.
As such, it's easy to see most of the numbers are from where we were trending.
We can argue figures all day long. That 5% was actually lower than when Labour left.
No one has looked at demographics. We're all aware that there's is more people needing treatment than ever before. The scope of treatment in the NHS is greater than ever before.
As I said, I'm not disputing the figures, just that simply saying the Tories have created XYZ lists doesn't actually tell a story.
The NHS is being used as a tool as usual. we are entirly on on different pages.
I agree that the strain on NHS increase over time... they have what I have described as triple inflation.
But that is known and can be planned for. It hasn't. Part of setting the NHS budget should be looking at these demographics. If they haven't, that's on the government.
I also agree the numbers are lower than when labour left. But labour left them on a downwards trend.
And the first post labour government was a coalition.
I could also support a case that Cameron was a better guardian of NHS than the later iteartions of the Tories. I have no idea if this is true .. but do believe it is wrong to put all falvours of blue into one bucket. Each generation is different.
If you are in government you have a degree of control. Exceptional events, I will let off somewhat. But demographics is basic planning. Albeit hard decisions.
See also: state pension.
"
I don't think we're on completely different pages.
Of course it's the Governements fault that planning hasn't happened. There's 5m more people in the UK than in 2010, I'm not sure that can be planned for but it's never taken into account.
On the Labour point, they done a great deal inreducing numbers but they started to rise again before they left office. That's not a downward trend. |
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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago
|
"The list continues on an all time high, nearly 7.7 million.
"We have met interim targets, first those waiting 2 years, and then those waiting 18 months, for procedures" says Sunak.
Cynical me thinks that would have been an NHS priority following the lockdowns, irrespective of govt targets.
Sunak says target of getting list numbers down is increasingly challenging due to strikes, and is in doubt.
Well, bloody get on and negotiate then!
What does 7.7m mean exactly?
Hey I was just listening to the news at one. Besides, what are you actually asking? The exact figure or what the list is about?
What is the list about? What does 7.7m waiting actually mean? A wait of a day? A week? etc.almost half are over 18 weeks. And a good few hundred thousand over a year.
Now covid played a part. But it's put gasoline on a trend that had started may years earlier.
Now that trend may not be from Tory mismanagement per se. But imo we ignore that the NHS gets hit with price inflation (medical inflation is often higher than average prices), population inflation and age inflation. "Real" increases in budget doesn't cut it.
Very very few, if any were waiting over a year and somewhere are 15% were waiting between 18 weeks and one year before covid.
I'm not disputing that figures have been rising since 2010 but just throwing figures out there doesn't tell a story. oh for sure. But that 15pc had grown from 5pc since about 2013. A 3x increase in 6 years (20pc pa) meant we were sitting on a timebomb. And it would not suprise me in a "what gets measured gets managed" way that the trusts were catching people just in time to avoid the 12 month mark.
Clearly covid had an impact. Although it also possibly helped reduce the number of new cases for a while.
But if you follow the "less than one year trend we'd get to about 30pc a year in the less than one year. We are at 40pc.
As such, it's easy to see most of the numbers are from where we were trending.
We can argue figures all day long. That 5% was actually lower than when Labour left.
No one has looked at demographics. We're all aware that there's is more people needing treatment than ever before. The scope of treatment in the NHS is greater than ever before.
As I said, I'm not disputing the figures, just that simply saying the Tories have created XYZ lists doesn't actually tell a story.
The NHS is being used as a tool as usual. we are entirly on on different pages.
I agree that the strain on NHS increase over time... they have what I have described as triple inflation.
But that is known and can be planned for. It hasn't. Part of setting the NHS budget should be looking at these demographics. If they haven't, that's on the government.
I also agree the numbers are lower than when labour left. But labour left them on a downwards trend.
And the first post labour government was a coalition.
I could also support a case that Cameron was a better guardian of NHS than the later iteartions of the Tories. I have no idea if this is true .. but do believe it is wrong to put all falvours of blue into one bucket. Each generation is different.
If you are in government you have a degree of control. Exceptional events, I will let off somewhat. But demographics is basic planning. Albeit hard decisions.
See also: state pension.
I don't think we're on completely different pages.
Of course it's the Governements fault that planning hasn't happened. There's 5m more people in the UK than in 2010, I'm not sure that can be planned for but it's never taken into account.
On the Labour point, they done a great deal inreducing numbers but they started to rise again before they left office. That's not a downward trend. "
missed a key word. I agree not on different pages. Fml. Coffee needed |
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"I kind of don’t get the “don’t blame the Tories” argument though. Not after 13 years. I get in in the first parliamentary term as it can be argued they needed to undo the mess of a previous govt (not getting into whether that is true or not, but it will be the Labour line if they win GE, and is par for the course), but since then? I think it is highly appropriate to blame the govt if they have been in control for 13 years. Who else’s fault is it?
Obviously there will be exogenous events that have an impact, but that is the job of govt to manage the country through good and bad times. Don’t really see why one wouldn’t blame the govt?
If Labour are in for multiple terms, and if things are shit, you can be damned sure people will be blaming them. I will!
I certainly haven't ever said 'don't blame the Tories'. I ask for things to be looked at with context.
It would seem no one is capable off doing that.
What context, it would seem you just using the old, "their all as bad as each other" wrapped up as, "some people will always blame the Tories and some labour"
You're either new round here or incapable of reading. I suggest you go for a stroll and you'll see
So you didn't say some people will always blame the other party?
Seriously what was the context then?
Or you just going to tell me the stroll again?"
I did say that, it's true.
What does looking at figures with context have to do with that statement? |
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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago
|
"That's Politics.
I'm pretty certain that Labour and their supporters will be blaming the Tories for eternity.
Just as the Tories and their supporters still blame Labour."
Literally the post I replied to. |
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"How is your tax burden compared to then?"
"I can answer that one, it's stayed exactly the same.
But I assume that when you said "your tax burden" you weren't asking about me personally, in which case the answer is that it's gone down very slightly (for women).
Unless you were also asking about UK companies, in which case it's gone down very slightly (for small companies with less than £50k profits).
Does that answer your question?"
"Do you have figures for that? I'm pretty sure the burden is the highest it's ever been against GDP"
Ah, you've fallen for that 'highest tax burden since the war' thing. That's down to one economist who took GDP and tax receipt figures, and showed that the ratio of tax collected to GDP has increased significantly over recent years. He calls this 'the tax burden'.
In reality you can look at historical data for the tax rates and see that they have been much higher in the past. The tax burden has gone down in recent years not up.
We're not paying higher rates of taxes. What is happening is that the amount of taxes collected is going up as it becomes harder and harder to avoid paying it. The increase in taxes collected isn't due to higher taxes, it's due to higher levels of enforcement. What his 'tax burden' ratio is actually measuring is the increasing efficiency of HMRC. |
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""That's Politics.
I'm pretty certain that Labour and their supporters will be blaming the Tories for eternity.
Just as the Tories and their supporters still blame Labour."
Literally the post I replied to."
Yeah. And??
I'm assuming that you're trying to argue there was no context there?
There didn't need to be, that's a statement I made that I feel is true. And I'm pretty sure plenty will agree (on both sides). |
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By *irldnCouple
over a year ago
Brighton |
"How is your tax burden compared to then?
I can answer that one, it's stayed exactly the same.
But I assume that when you said "your tax burden" you weren't asking about me personally, in which case the answer is that it's gone down very slightly (for women).
Unless you were also asking about UK companies, in which case it's gone down very slightly (for small companies with less than £50k profits).
Does that answer your question?
Do you have figures for that? I'm pretty sure the burden is the highest it's ever been against GDP
Ah, you've fallen for that 'highest tax burden since the war' thing. That's down to one economist who took GDP and tax receipt figures, and showed that the ratio of tax collected to GDP has increased significantly over recent years. He calls this 'the tax burden'.
In reality you can look at historical data for the tax rates and see that they have been much higher in the past. The tax burden has gone down in recent years not up.
We're not paying higher rates of taxes. What is happening is that the amount of taxes collected is going up as it becomes harder and harder to avoid paying it. The increase in taxes collected isn't due to higher taxes, it's due to higher levels of enforcement. What his 'tax burden' ratio is actually measuring is the increasing efficiency of HMRC."
I am expecting Morley to have something to say on this. Truss and other Tufton St alumni certainly seem to think it and are critical of Sunak’s govt. |
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By *irldnCouple
over a year ago
Brighton |
"I kind of don’t get the “don’t blame the Tories” argument though. Not after 13 years.
Is anyone saying "don't blame the Tories"? With the exception of CoViD, which definitely started elsewhere, I don't see anyone claiming that it's someone else's fault."
Perhaps not explicitly but it is certainly implicit in some of the posts in this thread that seemingly either want to justify/support the Govt (who happen to be Tory) or distract by pointing at Labour (who aren’t in Govt).
This extract from Feisty and NotMe illustrates it. Highly amusing but it implies that we can’t/shouldn’t blame the Tories. I disagree. I do level some blame at their feet by virtue of them being in Govt for 13 years. They haven’t fixed the problem and it has gotten worse. Who else can we blame?
"Of course 'it's been increasing since the Tories'.
Do we qctually know what a 'waiting list' is? Why they're having to wait? How long they're having to wait?
All of these thing may have nothing to do with the Tories but as usual NHS = Politcal Football."
It is raining, I blame the tories
the sun is out, I blame the tories
I'm going to be late tonight, I blame the tories.
Any plans for the weekend, no and I blame the tories.
My cream egg is smaller than it used to be, I blame the tories"
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By *otMe66Man
over a year ago
Terra Firma |
"I kind of don’t get the “don’t blame the Tories” argument though. Not after 13 years.
Is anyone saying "don't blame the Tories"? With the exception of CoViD, which definitely started elsewhere, I don't see anyone claiming that it's someone else's fault.
Perhaps not explicitly but it is certainly implicit in some of the posts in this thread that seemingly either want to justify/support the Govt (who happen to be Tory) or distract by pointing at Labour (who aren’t in Govt).
This extract from Feisty and NotMe illustrates it. Highly amusing but it implies that we can’t/shouldn’t blame the Tories. I disagree. I do level some blame at their feet by virtue of them being in Govt for 13 years. They haven’t fixed the problem and it has gotten worse. Who else can we blame?
Of course 'it's been increasing since the Tories'.
Do we qctually know what a 'waiting list' is? Why they're having to wait? How long they're having to wait?
All of these thing may have nothing to do with the Tories but as usual NHS = Politcal Football."
It is raining, I blame the tories
the sun is out, I blame the tories
I'm going to be late tonight, I blame the tories.
Any plans for the weekend, no and I blame the tories.
My cream egg is smaller than it used to be, I blame the tories"
My input to blaming the tories is driven from every discussion on here someone will pipe up with “I blame the tories”
No matter the subject, I blame the tories is going to pop up.
And I will now blame the tories for me having to explain myself
|
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"I kind of don’t get the “don’t blame the Tories” argument though. Not after 13 years.
Is anyone saying "don't blame the Tories"? With the exception of CoViD, which definitely started elsewhere, I don't see anyone claiming that it's someone else's fault.
Perhaps not explicitly but it is certainly implicit in some of the posts in this thread that seemingly either want to justify/support the Govt (who happen to be Tory) or distract by pointing at Labour (who aren’t in Govt).
This extract from Feisty and NotMe illustrates it. Highly amusing but it implies that we can’t/shouldn’t blame the Tories. I disagree. I do level some blame at their feet by virtue of them being in Govt for 13 years. They haven’t fixed the problem and it has gotten worse. Who else can we blame?
Of course 'it's been increasing since the Tories'.
Do we qctually know what a 'waiting list' is? Why they're having to wait? How long they're having to wait?
All of these thing may have nothing to do with the Tories but as usual NHS = Politcal Football."
It is raining, I blame the tories
the sun is out, I blame the tories
I'm going to be late tonight, I blame the tories.
Any plans for the weekend, no and I blame the tories.
My cream egg is smaller than it used to be, I blame the tories"
You clearly missed the satire there.
However, at least you managed to quote this thread rather than following people around quoting other threads that are irrelevant |
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By *irldnCouple
over a year ago
Brighton |
"I kind of don’t get the “don’t blame the Tories” argument though. Not after 13 years.
Is anyone saying "don't blame the Tories"? With the exception of CoViD, which definitely started elsewhere, I don't see anyone claiming that it's someone else's fault.
Perhaps not explicitly but it is certainly implicit in some of the posts in this thread that seemingly either want to justify/support the Govt (who happen to be Tory) or distract by pointing at Labour (who aren’t in Govt).
This extract from Feisty and NotMe illustrates it. Highly amusing but it implies that we can’t/shouldn’t blame the Tories. I disagree. I do level some blame at their feet by virtue of them being in Govt for 13 years. They haven’t fixed the problem and it has gotten worse. Who else can we blame?
Of course 'it's been increasing since the Tories'.
Do we qctually know what a 'waiting list' is? Why they're having to wait? How long they're having to wait?
All of these thing may have nothing to do with the Tories but as usual NHS = Politcal Football."
It is raining, I blame the tories
the sun is out, I blame the tories
I'm going to be late tonight, I blame the tories.
Any plans for the weekend, no and I blame the tories.
My cream egg is smaller than it used to be, I blame the tories
My input to blaming the tories is driven from every discussion on here someone will pipe up with “I blame the tories”
No matter the subject, I blame the tories is going to pop up.
And I will now blame the tories for me having to explain myself
"
You should. In fact why stop there? It’s the Tories fault you are on Fab!
I get what you are saying and some people will indeed do that. But in the context of this conversation about the NHS I cannot see how the Tories are blameless. If the situation were the same but we had a Labour govt then they take the blame (or a big chunk of it) |
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By *irldnCouple
over a year ago
Brighton |
"I kind of don’t get the “don’t blame the Tories” argument though. Not after 13 years.
Is anyone saying "don't blame the Tories"? With the exception of CoViD, which definitely started elsewhere, I don't see anyone claiming that it's someone else's fault.
Perhaps not explicitly but it is certainly implicit in some of the posts in this thread that seemingly either want to justify/support the Govt (who happen to be Tory) or distract by pointing at Labour (who aren’t in Govt).
This extract from Feisty and NotMe illustrates it. Highly amusing but it implies that we can’t/shouldn’t blame the Tories. I disagree. I do level some blame at their feet by virtue of them being in Govt for 13 years. They haven’t fixed the problem and it has gotten worse. Who else can we blame?
Of course 'it's been increasing since the Tories'.
Do we qctually know what a 'waiting list' is? Why they're having to wait? How long they're having to wait?
All of these thing may have nothing to do with the Tories but as usual NHS = Politcal Football."
It is raining, I blame the tories
the sun is out, I blame the tories
I'm going to be late tonight, I blame the tories.
Any plans for the weekend, no and I blame the tories.
My cream egg is smaller than it used to be, I blame the tories
You clearly missed the satire there.
However, at least you managed to quote this thread rather than following people around quoting other threads that are irrelevant "
Oh I got the satire/joke fully but simply doing that implies that we shouldn’t blame the Tories when clearly in this situation they must take the blame (or a big chunk of it). |
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"I kind of don’t get the “don’t blame the Tories” argument though. Not after 13 years.
Is anyone saying "don't blame the Tories"? With the exception of CoViD, which definitely started elsewhere, I don't see anyone claiming that it's someone else's fault.
Perhaps not explicitly but it is certainly implicit in some of the posts in this thread that seemingly either want to justify/support the Govt (who happen to be Tory) or distract by pointing at Labour (who aren’t in Govt).
This extract from Feisty and NotMe illustrates it. Highly amusing but it implies that we can’t/shouldn’t blame the Tories. I disagree. I do level some blame at their feet by virtue of them being in Govt for 13 years. They haven’t fixed the problem and it has gotten worse. Who else can we blame?
Of course 'it's been increasing since the Tories'.
Do we qctually know what a 'waiting list' is? Why they're having to wait? How long they're having to wait?
All of these thing may have nothing to do with the Tories but as usual NHS = Politcal Football."
It is raining, I blame the tories
the sun is out, I blame the tories
I'm going to be late tonight, I blame the tories.
Any plans for the weekend, no and I blame the tories.
My cream egg is smaller than it used to be, I blame the tories
You clearly missed the satire there.
However, at least you managed to quote this thread rather than following people around quoting other threads that are irrelevant
Oh I got the satire/joke fully but simply doing that implies that we shouldn’t blame the Tories when clearly in this situation they must take the blame (or a big chunk of it)."
Does it?
I think it implies the Tories will be blamed regardless. |
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By *irldnCouple
over a year ago
Brighton |
"I kind of don’t get the “don’t blame the Tories” argument though. Not after 13 years.
Is anyone saying "don't blame the Tories"? With the exception of CoViD, which definitely started elsewhere, I don't see anyone claiming that it's someone else's fault.
Perhaps not explicitly but it is certainly implicit in some of the posts in this thread that seemingly either want to justify/support the Govt (who happen to be Tory) or distract by pointing at Labour (who aren’t in Govt).
This extract from Feisty and NotMe illustrates it. Highly amusing but it implies that we can’t/shouldn’t blame the Tories. I disagree. I do level some blame at their feet by virtue of them being in Govt for 13 years. They haven’t fixed the problem and it has gotten worse. Who else can we blame?
Of course 'it's been increasing since the Tories'.
Do we qctually know what a 'waiting list' is? Why they're having to wait? How long they're having to wait?
All of these thing may have nothing to do with the Tories but as usual NHS = Politcal Football."
It is raining, I blame the tories
the sun is out, I blame the tories
I'm going to be late tonight, I blame the tories.
Any plans for the weekend, no and I blame the tories.
My cream egg is smaller than it used to be, I blame the tories
You clearly missed the satire there.
However, at least you managed to quote this thread rather than following people around quoting other threads that are irrelevant
Oh I got the satire/joke fully but simply doing that implies that we shouldn’t blame the Tories when clearly in this situation they must take the blame (or a big chunk of it).
Does it?
I think it implies the Tories will be blamed regardless. "
I think it provides excuses. Are they snowflakes? They need to man up and take their tonic! |
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"I kind of don’t get the “don’t blame the Tories” argument though. Not after 13 years.
Is anyone saying "don't blame the Tories"? With the exception of CoViD, which definitely started elsewhere, I don't see anyone claiming that it's someone else's fault.
Perhaps not explicitly but it is certainly implicit in some of the posts in this thread that seemingly either want to justify/support the Govt (who happen to be Tory) or distract by pointing at Labour (who aren’t in Govt).
This extract from Feisty and NotMe illustrates it. Highly amusing but it implies that we can’t/shouldn’t blame the Tories. I disagree. I do level some blame at their feet by virtue of them being in Govt for 13 years. They haven’t fixed the problem and it has gotten worse. Who else can we blame?
Of course 'it's been increasing since the Tories'.
Do we qctually know what a 'waiting list' is? Why they're having to wait? How long they're having to wait?
All of these thing may have nothing to do with the Tories but as usual NHS = Politcal Football."
It is raining, I blame the tories
the sun is out, I blame the tories
I'm going to be late tonight, I blame the tories.
Any plans for the weekend, no and I blame the tories.
My cream egg is smaller than it used to be, I blame the tories
You clearly missed the satire there.
However, at least you managed to quote this thread rather than following people around quoting other threads that are irrelevant
Oh I got the satire/joke fully but simply doing that implies that we shouldn’t blame the Tories when clearly in this situation they must take the blame (or a big chunk of it).
Does it?
I think it implies the Tories will be blamed regardless.
I think it provides excuses. Are they snowflakes? They need to man up and take their tonic! "
Are who snowflakes?
|
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By *irldnCouple
over a year ago
Brighton |
"I kind of don’t get the “don’t blame the Tories” argument though. Not after 13 years.
Is anyone saying "don't blame the Tories"? With the exception of CoViD, which definitely started elsewhere, I don't see anyone claiming that it's someone else's fault.
Perhaps not explicitly but it is certainly implicit in some of the posts in this thread that seemingly either want to justify/support the Govt (who happen to be Tory) or distract by pointing at Labour (who aren’t in Govt).
This extract from Feisty and NotMe illustrates it. Highly amusing but it implies that we can’t/shouldn’t blame the Tories. I disagree. I do level some blame at their feet by virtue of them being in Govt for 13 years. They haven’t fixed the problem and it has gotten worse. Who else can we blame?
Of course 'it's been increasing since the Tories'.
Do we qctually know what a 'waiting list' is? Why they're having to wait? How long they're having to wait?
All of these thing may have nothing to do with the Tories but as usual NHS = Politcal Football."
It is raining, I blame the tories
the sun is out, I blame the tories
I'm going to be late tonight, I blame the tories.
Any plans for the weekend, no and I blame the tories.
My cream egg is smaller than it used to be, I blame the tories
You clearly missed the satire there.
However, at least you managed to quote this thread rather than following people around quoting other threads that are irrelevant
Oh I got the satire/joke fully but simply doing that implies that we shouldn’t blame the Tories when clearly in this situation they must take the blame (or a big chunk of it).
Does it?
I think it implies the Tories will be blamed regardless.
I think it provides excuses. Are they snowflakes? They need to man up and take their tonic!
Are who snowflakes?
"
A) Tories
B) Tory defenders
I’m kidding. To me it seems that saying “ah yeah but everything gets blamed on the Tories” is in the same realms as “your theory is just a conspiracy theory”. It undermines credibility by associating it with silly stuff.
Do the Tories get blamed for everything? No but they get blamed for a lot. Is that justified? Yes/no as it depends what it is. If they had been in Govt 4 yrs, then give them a chance. 13+years, nah you’ve had your chance and in many areas fucked it! |
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"I kind of don’t get the “don’t blame the Tories” argument though. Not after 13 years.
Is anyone saying "don't blame the Tories"? With the exception of CoViD, which definitely started elsewhere, I don't see anyone claiming that it's someone else's fault.
Perhaps not explicitly but it is certainly implicit in some of the posts in this thread that seemingly either want to justify/support the Govt (who happen to be Tory) or distract by pointing at Labour (who aren’t in Govt).
This extract from Feisty and NotMe illustrates it. Highly amusing but it implies that we can’t/shouldn’t blame the Tories. I disagree. I do level some blame at their feet by virtue of them being in Govt for 13 years. They haven’t fixed the problem and it has gotten worse. Who else can we blame?
Of course 'it's been increasing since the Tories'.
Do we qctually know what a 'waiting list' is? Why they're having to wait? How long they're having to wait?
All of these thing may have nothing to do with the Tories but as usual NHS = Politcal Football."
It is raining, I blame the tories
the sun is out, I blame the tories
I'm going to be late tonight, I blame the tories.
Any plans for the weekend, no and I blame the tories.
My cream egg is smaller than it used to be, I blame the tories
You clearly missed the satire there.
However, at least you managed to quote this thread rather than following people around quoting other threads that are irrelevant
Oh I got the satire/joke fully but simply doing that implies that we shouldn’t blame the Tories when clearly in this situation they must take the blame (or a big chunk of it).
Does it?
I think it implies the Tories will be blamed regardless.
I think it provides excuses. Are they snowflakes? They need to man up and take their tonic!
Are who snowflakes?
A) Tories
B) Tory defenders
I’m kidding. To me it seems that saying “ah yeah but everything gets blamed on the Tories” is in the same realms as “your theory is just a conspiracy theory”. It undermines credibility by associating it with silly stuff.
Do the Tories get blamed for everything? No but they get blamed for a lot. Is that justified? Yes/no as it depends what it is. If they had been in Govt 4 yrs, then give them a chance. 13+years, nah you’ve had your chance and in many areas fucked it!"
OK I'll take you 'conspiracy theory' analogy and agree with it to an extent.
However, the opposite is also true.
People don't actually look far enough into things before laying the blame. This isn't about Tories as such, it's about everything. It just happens to be about the Tories on most of these threads.
I've asked what is a waiting time? Are people waiting 1 week, 1 month etc.
The reason I ask is there are nearly 5m people waiting up to 18 weeks. What exactly does that mean? 18 weeks isn't actually a long time (condition dependant).
There are now nearly 400k people waiting more than 1 year, we've had covid and strikes.
There's so much more you could analyse, but no, headline figure = TORIES BAD.
Until that attitude changes, on both sides, we will never come together to look at how these things can be resolved. |
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By *irldnCouple
over a year ago
Brighton |
"I kind of don’t get the “don’t blame the Tories” argument though. Not after 13 years.
Is anyone saying "don't blame the Tories"? With the exception of CoViD, which definitely started elsewhere, I don't see anyone claiming that it's someone else's fault.
Perhaps not explicitly but it is certainly implicit in some of the posts in this thread that seemingly either want to justify/support the Govt (who happen to be Tory) or distract by pointing at Labour (who aren’t in Govt).
This extract from Feisty and NotMe illustrates it. Highly amusing but it implies that we can’t/shouldn’t blame the Tories. I disagree. I do level some blame at their feet by virtue of them being in Govt for 13 years. They haven’t fixed the problem and it has gotten worse. Who else can we blame?
Of course 'it's been increasing since the Tories'.
Do we qctually know what a 'waiting list' is? Why they're having to wait? How long they're having to wait?
All of these thing may have nothing to do with the Tories but as usual NHS = Politcal Football."
It is raining, I blame the tories
the sun is out, I blame the tories
I'm going to be late tonight, I blame the tories.
Any plans for the weekend, no and I blame the tories.
My cream egg is smaller than it used to be, I blame the tories
You clearly missed the satire there.
However, at least you managed to quote this thread rather than following people around quoting other threads that are irrelevant
Oh I got the satire/joke fully but simply doing that implies that we shouldn’t blame the Tories when clearly in this situation they must take the blame (or a big chunk of it).
Does it?
I think it implies the Tories will be blamed regardless.
I think it provides excuses. Are they snowflakes? They need to man up and take their tonic!
Are who snowflakes?
A) Tories
B) Tory defenders
I’m kidding. To me it seems that saying “ah yeah but everything gets blamed on the Tories” is in the same realms as “your theory is just a conspiracy theory”. It undermines credibility by associating it with silly stuff.
Do the Tories get blamed for everything? No but they get blamed for a lot. Is that justified? Yes/no as it depends what it is. If they had been in Govt 4 yrs, then give them a chance. 13+years, nah you’ve had your chance and in many areas fucked it!
OK I'll take you 'conspiracy theory' analogy and agree with it to an extent.
However, the opposite is also true.
People don't actually look far enough into things before laying the blame. This isn't about Tories as such, it's about everything. It just happens to be about the Tories on most of these threads.
I've asked what is a waiting time? Are people waiting 1 week, 1 month etc.
The reason I ask is there are nearly 5m people waiting up to 18 weeks. What exactly does that mean? 18 weeks isn't actually a long time (condition dependant).
There are now nearly 400k people waiting more than 1 year, we've had covid and strikes.
There's so much more you could analyse, but no, headline figure = TORIES BAD.
Until that attitude changes, on both sides, we will never come together to look at how these things can be resolved. "
Now tell me if this is wrong but assuming the measure being used in 2010 (Labour) is the same as the measure used in 2019 (Tory) then again in 2023 (Tory) with Covid backlog needing to be considered then what the measure means kind of doesn’t matter. What matters is whether waiting times have increased or decreased. If the KPI is different then it is apples and pears. If the KPI is the same then it is apples with apples and seeing increased waiting times is an indicator of a poorer service. |
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"I kind of don’t get the “don’t blame the Tories” argument though. Not after 13 years.
Is anyone saying "don't blame the Tories"? With the exception of CoViD, which definitely started elsewhere, I don't see anyone claiming that it's someone else's fault.
Perhaps not explicitly but it is certainly implicit in some of the posts in this thread that seemingly either want to justify/support the Govt (who happen to be Tory) or distract by pointing at Labour (who aren’t in Govt).
This extract from Feisty and NotMe illustrates it. Highly amusing but it implies that we can’t/shouldn’t blame the Tories. I disagree. I do level some blame at their feet by virtue of them being in Govt for 13 years. They haven’t fixed the problem and it has gotten worse. Who else can we blame?
Of course 'it's been increasing since the Tories'.
Do we qctually know what a 'waiting list' is? Why they're having to wait? How long they're having to wait?
All of these thing may have nothing to do with the Tories but as usual NHS = Politcal Football."
It is raining, I blame the tories
the sun is out, I blame the tories
I'm going to be late tonight, I blame the tories.
Any plans for the weekend, no and I blame the tories.
My cream egg is smaller than it used to be, I blame the tories
You clearly missed the satire there.
However, at least you managed to quote this thread rather than following people around quoting other threads that are irrelevant
Oh I got the satire/joke fully but simply doing that implies that we shouldn’t blame the Tories when clearly in this situation they must take the blame (or a big chunk of it).
Does it?
I think it implies the Tories will be blamed regardless.
I think it provides excuses. Are they snowflakes? They need to man up and take their tonic!
Are who snowflakes?
A) Tories
B) Tory defenders
I’m kidding. To me it seems that saying “ah yeah but everything gets blamed on the Tories” is in the same realms as “your theory is just a conspiracy theory”. It undermines credibility by associating it with silly stuff.
Do the Tories get blamed for everything? No but they get blamed for a lot. Is that justified? Yes/no as it depends what it is. If they had been in Govt 4 yrs, then give them a chance. 13+years, nah you’ve had your chance and in many areas fucked it!
OK I'll take you 'conspiracy theory' analogy and agree with it to an extent.
However, the opposite is also true.
People don't actually look far enough into things before laying the blame. This isn't about Tories as such, it's about everything. It just happens to be about the Tories on most of these threads.
I've asked what is a waiting time? Are people waiting 1 week, 1 month etc.
The reason I ask is there are nearly 5m people waiting up to 18 weeks. What exactly does that mean? 18 weeks isn't actually a long time (condition dependant).
There are now nearly 400k people waiting more than 1 year, we've had covid and strikes.
There's so much more you could analyse, but no, headline figure = TORIES BAD.
Until that attitude changes, on both sides, we will never come together to look at how these things can be resolved.
Now tell me if this is wrong but assuming the measure being used in 2010 (Labour) is the same as the measure used in 2019 (Tory) then again in 2023 (Tory) with Covid backlog needing to be considered then what the measure means kind of doesn’t matter. What matters is whether waiting times have increased or decreased. If the KPI is different then it is apples and pears. If the KPI is the same then it is apples with apples and seeing increased waiting times is an indicator of a poorer service."
I have no idea if the KPIs are the same or not. I doubt anyone else does either.
We do know it had started to increase during the end of Labour's tenure and then dropped at the beginning of the Tories. Who do we credit with that drop?
We also know that there was as many waiting over a year in 2007 as there is today. How did they do that?
We also know labour cut 30k beds during their time in Govt. Why?
You see all of this is things we don't get told because HEADLINE FIGURES make for better point scoring.
The point I'm trying to make is I don't think when analysing something over 25 years, I don't think we'll ever be comparing apples with apples. |
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By *irldnCouple
over a year ago
Brighton |
"I kind of don’t get the “don’t blame the Tories” argument though. Not after 13 years.
Is anyone saying "don't blame the Tories"? With the exception of CoViD, which definitely started elsewhere, I don't see anyone claiming that it's someone else's fault.
Perhaps not explicitly but it is certainly implicit in some of the posts in this thread that seemingly either want to justify/support the Govt (who happen to be Tory) or distract by pointing at Labour (who aren’t in Govt).
This extract from Feisty and NotMe illustrates it. Highly amusing but it implies that we can’t/shouldn’t blame the Tories. I disagree. I do level some blame at their feet by virtue of them being in Govt for 13 years. They haven’t fixed the problem and it has gotten worse. Who else can we blame?
Of course 'it's been increasing since the Tories'.
Do we qctually know what a 'waiting list' is? Why they're having to wait? How long they're having to wait?
All of these thing may have nothing to do with the Tories but as usual NHS = Politcal Football."
It is raining, I blame the tories
the sun is out, I blame the tories
I'm going to be late tonight, I blame the tories.
Any plans for the weekend, no and I blame the tories.
My cream egg is smaller than it used to be, I blame the tories
You clearly missed the satire there.
However, at least you managed to quote this thread rather than following people around quoting other threads that are irrelevant
Oh I got the satire/joke fully but simply doing that implies that we shouldn’t blame the Tories when clearly in this situation they must take the blame (or a big chunk of it).
Does it?
I think it implies the Tories will be blamed regardless.
I think it provides excuses. Are they snowflakes? They need to man up and take their tonic!
Are who snowflakes?
A) Tories
B) Tory defenders
I’m kidding. To me it seems that saying “ah yeah but everything gets blamed on the Tories” is in the same realms as “your theory is just a conspiracy theory”. It undermines credibility by associating it with silly stuff.
Do the Tories get blamed for everything? No but they get blamed for a lot. Is that justified? Yes/no as it depends what it is. If they had been in Govt 4 yrs, then give them a chance. 13+years, nah you’ve had your chance and in many areas fucked it!
OK I'll take you 'conspiracy theory' analogy and agree with it to an extent.
However, the opposite is also true.
People don't actually look far enough into things before laying the blame. This isn't about Tories as such, it's about everything. It just happens to be about the Tories on most of these threads.
I've asked what is a waiting time? Are people waiting 1 week, 1 month etc.
The reason I ask is there are nearly 5m people waiting up to 18 weeks. What exactly does that mean? 18 weeks isn't actually a long time (condition dependant).
There are now nearly 400k people waiting more than 1 year, we've had covid and strikes.
There's so much more you could analyse, but no, headline figure = TORIES BAD.
Until that attitude changes, on both sides, we will never come together to look at how these things can be resolved.
Now tell me if this is wrong but assuming the measure being used in 2010 (Labour) is the same as the measure used in 2019 (Tory) then again in 2023 (Tory) with Covid backlog needing to be considered then what the measure means kind of doesn’t matter. What matters is whether waiting times have increased or decreased. If the KPI is different then it is apples and pears. If the KPI is the same then it is apples with apples and seeing increased waiting times is an indicator of a poorer service.
I have no idea if the KPIs are the same or not. I doubt anyone else does either.
We do know it had started to increase during the end of Labour's tenure and then dropped at the beginning of the Tories. Who do we credit with that drop?
We also know that there was as many waiting over a year in 2007 as there is today. How did they do that?
We also know labour cut 30k beds during their time in Govt. Why?
You see all of this is things we don't get told because HEADLINE FIGURES make for better point scoring.
The point I'm trying to make is I don't think when analysing something over 25 years, I don't think we'll ever be comparing apples with apples. "
Yep probably and that is annoying. Consistent KPIs should beca requirement taxpayers insist on so we can actually see how well a govt is doing.
I seem to recall Labour in the late 90s changing the metric but I am not aware of the Tories changing it since. |
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By *melie LAL OP Woman
over a year ago
Peterborough |
"Not too long to wait now until the GE and then Labour can actually show one way or the other if they can fix things. The time for promises and condemnation of the current rabble is nearly over and the time to actually deliver will then be upon them
Don't expect immediate delivery. It's not just 66 who needs to give them grace, we need to give time for the economy to grow, reap the financial rewards and then the pennies can be spent.
They have been talking the talk for long enough, now approaching is the time for them to walk the walk.
When we vote them in.
Yes obviously not until they are voted in which is fast approaching. Then they must deliver
Just to be contrary...Labour will be inheriting a mess so they could spend 13 years blaming the Tories.
That's Politics.
I'm pretty certain that Labour and their supporters will be blaming the Tories for eternity.
Just as the Tories and their supporters still blame Labour.
Yep *sigh* and whatever nuance or detail to support any claims/blame is diluted by the media in the search for clickbait headlines.
Be so nice to see some mature debate rather than willy waving finger pointing.
A. The situation is this because of that.
B. The way we can address that is to do this but it will mean we cannot do that.
C. We think this is a priority over that, if you agree vote for us/support us!"
I similarly claimed Tories still blame Labour. I think it's funny (or disbelief) watching ministers on current affairs progs like Sunday with LK or Question Time, and respond with "But Labour... ", ffs it was 13 years ago answer the question. |
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By *eroy1000Man
over a year ago
milton keynes |
"Not too long to wait now until the GE and then Labour can actually show one way or the other if they can fix things. The time for promises and condemnation of the current rabble is nearly over and the time to actually deliver will then be upon them
Don't expect immediate delivery. It's not just 66 who needs to give them grace, we need to give time for the economy to grow, reap the financial rewards and then the pennies can be spent.
They have been talking the talk for long enough, now approaching is the time for them to walk the walk.
When we vote them in.
Yes obviously not until they are voted in which is fast approaching. Then they must deliver
Just to be contrary...Labour will be inheriting a mess so they could spend 13 years blaming the Tories."
They could and as politicians I fear they might. It would be a shame if they turn out the same as the Tories and even use the same old excuses. |
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On tbe one hand people don't want soure, bupa etc receiving o ey from the nhs budget and " more privatisation".
They wanted the nha locked down for 2 years from 2020 to 2022. But they can't handle the consequences.
Reap what you sew sadly.
Oooor
Accept that more privatisation payment are a necessary evil to clear this down, and accept a bigger discussion needs to happen regarding the NHS being fit for purpose.
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