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Train Journeys
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By *oo hot OP Couple
over a year ago
North West |
Watching the to-ing and fro-ing between ASLEF and the Government and Government spokespeople saying that the railways are under huge financial pressures.
Last week I took a 1hour 50minute train journey from a regional city in France to the coast. It cost €16.
How can the railways in Britain be under huge financial pressures when a similar length of journey here (say Manchester/Liverpool to London) is about £75ish off-peak or double that at peak times?
If British railways are under severe financial pressure, the French rail network must be on its knees. |
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By *oo hot OP Couple
over a year ago
North West |
"Privatisation is partly to blame, as is aging infrastructure and the failure to adequately cap fares. Govt. set the majority of prices. "
How would capping the fares improve the financial viability of the rail network? |
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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago
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"Privatisation is partly to blame, as is aging infrastructure and the failure to adequately cap fares. Govt. set the majority of prices.
How would capping the fares improve the financial viability of the rail network?"
Sorry, was thinking about fare prices - poorly worded.
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A lot of it is the fall out of over 50 years of under investment and an understanding that the railways a key State lubricant of society and industry rather than a profitable concern. This has especially been a result of continuous Tory governments who ideology prevent them from veiwing railway infrastructure like its seen on the continent.
So post war we were left with the oldest rail network in the world. However most of Europe's rail infrastructure was completely destroyed. So while we sticky plastered together a Victorian railway the rest of Europe rebuilt new and benefited from the latest technologies. They continued to see its value and continued to invest from the public purse. However in the UK we continued try and sticky plaster a victorian railway together. Even when we did modernise parts of the railway it tended to be at as much reduction and ambition as possible. So now Europe has good infrastructure and benifits financially. In the UK we continued to spend a fortune trying to hold old (in some case still victorian) infrastructure together and also facing huge costs to replace and modernised infrastructure that really has to be replace now.
On top of this lack of investment for decades you have a government that still doesn't upstand how national railways work or that they don't work as profitable organisations as a complete nationwide network. So they instead of following the European model successive goverments under funded and eventually brought in a most bizarre systems of Privatisation. Initially where you have private sector running the infrastructure needed to make profits, train leasing companies needing to make profits and then the train operators needing to make profits. So you had three different entities all taking a slice of your ticket price and paying shareholders when good national railways systems in Europe run as State owned entities and don't have the same running costs. Thus the tax payer and the ticket payer have never paid so much while these companies pay out to their shareholders. Not to mention that a lot of these companies being owned European state railways funding their nations own railway. But as well as cost it also cost lives. The infrastructure had to be handed back to state control when it was found cost cutting on safety for profits were factors in a couple of rail disasters.
Your ticket prices are high and so if the expenses to the tax payer because of decades of under investment and damaging political ideology and attitudes towards national rail infrastructure. So before people point the finger at railway staff they should first look at decades of political neglect/mismanagement and all those ripping profits out at our expense (including the State run railways of other European nations). |
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It is also Union's and overpaid Staff.
A friend of mine, his bother just started working as a train driver and was told he had to pick up his uniform on the Monday, which happened to be a bank holiday. He got paid a full day, plus overtime for popping in for 20 minutes. Good luck to him but that is crazy ?? |
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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago
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"It is also Union's and overpaid Staff.
A friend of mine, his bother just started working as a train driver and was told he had to pick up his uniform on the Monday, which happened to be a bank holiday. He got paid a full day, plus overtime for popping in for 20 minutes. Good luck to him but that is crazy ?? "
That’s a bizarre way of working. Trainee drivers are usually given their uniform on the first day of their course/induction day - which most definitely isn’t a 20 minute day. |
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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago
|
"It is also Union's and overpaid Staff.
A friend of mine, his bother just started working as a train driver and was told he had to pick up his uniform on the Monday, which happened to be a bank holiday. He got paid a full day, plus overtime for popping in for 20 minutes. Good luck to him but that is crazy ?? "
Also in my experience trainee drivers don’t work bank holidays unless rostered during the train handling period. Certainly their initial weeks of training (classroom based) are normal office-hours with bank holidays off.
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By *otMe66Man
over a year ago
Terra Firma |
"It is also Union's and overpaid Staff.
A friend of mine, his bother just started working as a train driver and was told he had to pick up his uniform on the Monday, which happened to be a bank holiday. He got paid a full day, plus overtime for popping in for 20 minutes. Good luck to him but that is crazy ??
That’s a bizarre way of working. Trainee drivers are usually given their uniform on the first day of their course/induction day - which most definitely isn’t a 20 minute day. "
What does a train drivers uniform look like and what purpose does it serve? I can’t remember ever seeing one on a train driver other than a flashing glimpse of someone sitting down
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By *oo hot OP Couple
over a year ago
North West |
"A lot of it is the fall out of over 50 years of under investment and an understanding that the railways a key State lubricant of society and industry rather than a profitable concern. This has especially been a result of continuous Tory governments who ideology prevent them from veiwing railway infrastructure like its seen on the continent.
So post war we were left with the oldest rail network in the world. However most of Europe's rail infrastructure was completely destroyed. So while we sticky plastered together a Victorian railway the rest of Europe rebuilt new and benefited from the latest technologies. They continued to see its value and continued to invest from the public purse. However in the UK we continued try and sticky plaster a victorian railway together. Even when we did modernise parts of the railway it tended to be at as much reduction and ambition as possible. So now Europe has good infrastructure and benifits financially. In the UK we continued to spend a fortune trying to hold old (in some case still victorian) infrastructure together and also facing huge costs to replace and modernised infrastructure that really has to be replace now.
On top of this lack of investment for decades you have a government that still doesn't upstand how national railways work or that they don't work as profitable organisations as a complete nationwide network. So they instead of following the European model successive goverments under funded and eventually brought in a most bizarre systems of Privatisation. Initially where you have private sector running the infrastructure needed to make profits, train leasing companies needing to make profits and then the train operators needing to make profits. So you had three different entities all taking a slice of your ticket price and paying shareholders when good national railways systems in Europe run as State owned entities and don't have the same running costs. Thus the tax payer and the ticket payer have never paid so much while these companies pay out to their shareholders. Not to mention that a lot of these companies being owned European state railways funding their nations own railway. But as well as cost it also cost lives. The infrastructure had to be handed back to state control when it was found cost cutting on safety for profits were factors in a couple of rail disasters.
Your ticket prices are high and so if the expenses to the tax payer because of decades of under investment and damaging political ideology and attitudes towards national rail infrastructure. So before people point the finger at railway staff they should first look at decades of political neglect/mismanagement and all those ripping profits out at our expense (including the State run railways of other European nations)."
Good insight  |
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"A lot of it is the fall out of over 50 years of under investment and an understanding that the railways a key State lubricant of society and industry rather than a profitable concern. This has especially been a result of continuous Tory governments who ideology prevent them from veiwing railway infrastructure like its seen on the continent.
So post war we were left with the oldest rail network in the world. However most of Europe's rail infrastructure was completely destroyed. So while we sticky plastered together a Victorian railway the rest of Europe rebuilt new and benefited from the latest technologies. They continued to see its value and continued to invest from the public purse. However in the UK we continued try and sticky plaster a victorian railway together. Even when we did modernise parts of the railway it tended to be at as much reduction and ambition as possible. So now Europe has good infrastructure and benifits financially. In the UK we continued to spend a fortune trying to hold old (in some case still victorian) infrastructure together and also facing huge costs to replace and modernised infrastructure that really has to be replace now.
On top of this lack of investment for decades you have a government that still doesn't upstand how national railways work or that they don't work as profitable organisations as a complete nationwide network. So they instead of following the European model successive goverments under funded and eventually brought in a most bizarre systems of Privatisation. Initially where you have private sector running the infrastructure needed to make profits, train leasing companies needing to make profits and then the train operators needing to make profits. So you had three different entities all taking a slice of your ticket price and paying shareholders when good national railways systems in Europe run as State owned entities and don't have the same running costs. Thus the tax payer and the ticket payer have never paid so much while these companies pay out to their shareholders. Not to mention that a lot of these companies being owned European state railways funding their nations own railway. But as well as cost it also cost lives. The infrastructure had to be handed back to state control when it was found cost cutting on safety for profits were factors in a couple of rail disasters.
Your ticket prices are high and so if the expenses to the tax payer because of decades of under investment and damaging political ideology and attitudes towards national rail infrastructure. So before people point the finger at railway staff they should first look at decades of political neglect/mismanagement and all those ripping profits out at our expense (including the State run railways of other European nations).
Good insight "
I think HS2 has proved how hard it is to improve the rail system in the UK.
There is not the space to build new railway and stations etc. OK if in a city but lots of us are miles from a station and it just doesn't work |
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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago
|
"It is also Union's and overpaid Staff.
A friend of mine, his bother just started working as a train driver and was told he had to pick up his uniform on the Monday, which happened to be a bank holiday. He got paid a full day, plus overtime for popping in for 20 minutes. Good luck to him but that is crazy ??
That’s a bizarre way of working. Trainee drivers are usually given their uniform on the first day of their course/induction day - which most definitely isn’t a 20 minute day.
What does a train drivers uniform look like and what purpose does it serve? I can’t remember ever seeing one on a train driver other than a flashing glimpse of someone sitting down
"
It serves the same purpose as any other uniform.- Corporate identity. |
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"Watching the to-ing and fro-ing between ASLEF and the Government and Government spokespeople saying that the railways are under huge financial pressures.
Last week I took a 1hour 50minute train journey from a regional city in France to the coast. It cost €16.
How can the railways in Britain be under huge financial pressures when a similar length of journey here (say Manchester/Liverpool to London) is about £75ish off-peak or double that at peak times?
If British railways are under severe financial pressure, the French rail network must be on its knees."
Our companies still have to pay the shareholders, thats why they are on thier knees. |
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By *eavenNhellCouple
over a year ago
carrbrook stalybridge |
"Who owns the rail network and the train operators in France?
SNCF"
sncf are owned and funded by the french govt like british rail used to be .only the french govt investvin new lines and rolling stock as a priority ours only ever do reluctantly |
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By *ercuryMan
over a year ago
Grantham |
"Watching the to-ing and fro-ing between ASLEF and the Government and Government spokespeople saying that the railways are under huge financial pressures.
Last week I took a 1hour 50minute train journey from a regional city in France to the coast. It cost €16.
How can the railways in Britain be under huge financial pressures when a similar length of journey here (say Manchester/Liverpool to London) is about £75ish off-peak or double that at peak times?
If British railways are under severe financial pressure, the French rail network must be on its knees.
Our companies still have to pay the shareholders, thats why they are on thier knees."
LNER, TPE and Scotrail are all run by the Goverment. |
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By *abioMan
over a year ago
Newcastle and Gateshead |
"Watching the to-ing and fro-ing between ASLEF and the Government and Government spokespeople saying that the railways are under huge financial pressures.
Last week I took a 1hour 50minute train journey from a regional city in France to the coast. It cost €16.
How can the railways in Britain be under huge financial pressures when a similar length of journey here (say Manchester/Liverpool to London) is about £75ish off-peak or double that at peak times?
If British railways are under severe financial pressure, the French rail network must be on its knees.
Our companies still have to pay the shareholders, thats why they are on thier knees.
LNER, TPE and Scotrail are all run by the Goverment."
Basically the entire rail network is nationalised at the moment…
Those 3 companies are all full government operated… the other train operators are all still on the Covid contract where the government pays them a fixed fee to run the services
|
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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago
|
"Who owns the rail network and the train operators in France?
SNCFsncf are owned and funded by the french govt like british rail used to be .only the french govt investvin new lines and rolling stock as a priority ours only ever do reluctantly "
Thats the truth right there. The French Gov actually put in the investment. The UK government of all persuasions continually failed to invest in BR until it was privatised and now everyone blames the private companies for taking the profit and not investing enough back in. |
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Channel 4s The Great Train Disaster (avaliable to watch on YouTube) gives a real good explanation of why our railways are terrible and at such a cost to the ticket payer and tax payer.
Oh and guess what? The problem isn't rail staff standing up for their working conditions and defending good railway working practices. Try looking at the ineptitude of the government and privatised system (old franchise system or the new fixed fee system that arguably is even worse). Or look to the greed of the many entries that rip huge profits at the expense of tax payer and ticket payer. The privatisation of our railways has been nothing more that a system of state sponsored theft. If you follow the money and the history you'll realise real problem isn't rail staff. So don't buy into this government's cynical ploy to gas light working people into turning on other working people rather than to true villains of this story. |
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"Watching the to-ing and fro-ing between ASLEF and the Government and Government spokespeople saying that the railways are under huge financial pressures.
Last week I took a 1hour 50minute train journey from a regional city in France to the coast. It cost €16.
How can the railways in Britain be under huge financial pressures when a similar length of journey here (say Manchester/Liverpool to London) is about £75ish off-peak or double that at peak times?
If British railways are under severe financial pressure, the French rail network must be on its knees.
Our companies still have to pay the shareholders, thats why they are on thier knees.
LNER, TPE and Scotrail are all run by the Goverment.
Basically the entire rail network is nationalised at the moment…
Those 3 companies are all full government operated… the other train operators are all still on the Covid contract where the government pays them a fixed fee to run the services
"
Arguably the worse of all situations. We now pay the train opperating companies to run our railway risk free. So we lose a good part of the theoretical advantages to private sector running and competition. The government now calls all the shots. So basically the ticket payer and tax payer continue to pay middle parties and share holders tons of cash to run our railways to government instructions. Now there's no hiding it. Its literally become just a mechanism to hand over public cash to the private sector for no reason. Basically we all pay a huge premium so the government can try and retain some slight of hand say the private sector still is key to the railway to stay in keeping with Conservative ideology. We all pay the price because Tories will never admit (even in the face of the failed franchise system) that the private sector has no place running our railways.
Meanwhile let's not forget running quietly in the background and often forgotten about the rolling stock leasing companies continue to to make huge profits leasing trains back to us. Including many older trains that did once actually once belong to us all from British Rail days.
It's a sick system. |
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By *abioMan
over a year ago
Newcastle and Gateshead |
"Watching the to-ing and fro-ing between ASLEF and the Government and Government spokespeople saying that the railways are under huge financial pressures.
Last week I took a 1hour 50minute train journey from a regional city in France to the coast. It cost €16.
How can the railways in Britain be under huge financial pressures when a similar length of journey here (say Manchester/Liverpool to London) is about £75ish off-peak or double that at peak times?
If British railways are under severe financial pressure, the French rail network must be on its knees.
Our companies still have to pay the shareholders, thats why they are on thier knees.
LNER, TPE and Scotrail are all run by the Goverment.
Basically the entire rail network is nationalised at the moment…
Those 3 companies are all full government operated… the other train operators are all still on the Covid contract where the government pays them a fixed fee to run the services
Arguably the worse of all situations. We now pay the train opperating companies to run our railway risk free. So we lose a good part of the theoretical advantages to private sector running and competition. The government now calls all the shots. So basically the ticket payer and tax payer continue to pay middle parties and share holders tons of cash to run our railways to government instructions. Now there's no hiding it. Its literally become just a mechanism to hand over public cash to the private sector for no reason. Basically we all pay a huge premium so the government can try and retain some slight of hand say the private sector still is key to the railway to stay in keeping with Conservative ideology. We all pay the price because Tories will never admit (even in the face of the failed franchise system) that the private sector has no place running our railways.
Meanwhile let's not forget running quietly in the background and often forgotten about the rolling stock leasing companies continue to to make huge profits leasing trains back to us. Including many older trains that did once actually once belong to us all from British Rail days.
It's a sick system. "
There basically is no profit to be made at the moment in the train industry… so if the government didn’t pay the franchisees a fixed fee to operate the services, companies would just hand back the franchise’s and the government would have to run them all anyway (and all staff basically become government employees)
It’s no win at the moment, it’s basically nationalisation by a different name… |
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"Watching the to-ing and fro-ing between ASLEF and the Government and Government spokespeople saying that the railways are under huge financial pressures.
Last week I took a 1hour 50minute train journey from a regional city in France to the coast. It cost €16.
How can the railways in Britain be under huge financial pressures when a similar length of journey here (say Manchester/Liverpool to London) is about £75ish off-peak or double that at peak times?
If British railways are under severe financial pressure, the French rail network must be on its knees.
Our companies still have to pay the shareholders, thats why they are on thier knees.
LNER, TPE and Scotrail are all run by the Goverment.
Basically the entire rail network is nationalised at the moment…
Those 3 companies are all full government operated… the other train operators are all still on the Covid contract where the government pays them a fixed fee to run the services
Arguably the worse of all situations. We now pay the train opperating companies to run our railway risk free. So we lose a good part of the theoretical advantages to private sector running and competition. The government now calls all the shots. So basically the ticket payer and tax payer continue to pay middle parties and share holders tons of cash to run our railways to government instructions. Now there's no hiding it. Its literally become just a mechanism to hand over public cash to the private sector for no reason. Basically we all pay a huge premium so the government can try and retain some slight of hand say the private sector still is key to the railway to stay in keeping with Conservative ideology. We all pay the price because Tories will never admit (even in the face of the failed franchise system) that the private sector has no place running our railways.
Meanwhile let's not forget running quietly in the background and often forgotten about the rolling stock leasing companies continue to to make huge profits leasing trains back to us. Including many older trains that did once actually once belong to us all from British Rail days.
It's a sick system.
There basically is no profit to be made at the moment in the train industry… so if the government didn’t pay the franchisees a fixed fee to operate the services, companies would just hand back the franchise’s and the government would have to run them all anyway (and all staff basically become government employees)
It’s no win at the moment, it’s basically nationalisation by a different name…"
No you have it the wrong way round. Its a mutant hybrid (as if the franchise system wasn't bad enough). The current system and in future Great British Railways is Privatisation in all but name minus the business risks and guaranteed fixed fees.
Nationalisation would be when the government would have to run the railway its self without paying the train opperating companies a fixed fee to guarantee them a profit risk free. The train opperating companies are not kindly charities giving services for free. The ticket payer and the tax payer are having to pay extra to ensure railway opperating companies profits are maintained withnfixed fee (which are made and paid out, often off shore and into the pockets of other nations state run railways). So at a time when railways aren't so profitable its completely bizarre to be paying extra to fund middle companies for something the government now centrally controls and pays for anyway over just nationalising it.
Although in the current industrial climate the government finds this handy. They get to control the whole industry and band behind closed doors railway operators talking to the Unions and securing deals. This power over train opperating companies over negotiations is written into the contracts with the government. While at the same time making out its nothing to do with the government and its a matter for the train opperating companies. Basically it allows train opperating companies to become the whipping boys for the government's mistakes.
Also when you look to the future of the railway this is the model the government wants to continue. To basically nationalise the railway in terms of uniformity of brand and central government control while paying private companies to run it for fixed fee on our behalf. Thus we both lose the value of not having to pay middle companies yet also lose the theoretical advantages of a competition based railway. The winners, train operating companies and shareholders who are awarded guaranteed profit for no risk. The Tories who get to fix some of the failings of privatisation yet still keep the railways privatised behind the facade of a nationalised railway. But the losers are every tax payer in this nation and all those who use the railway. |
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"Watching the to-ing and fro-ing between ASLEF and the Government and Government spokespeople saying that the railways are under huge financial pressures.
Last week I took a 1hour 50minute train journey from a regional city in France to the coast. It cost €16.
How can the railways in Britain be under huge financial pressures when a similar length of journey here (say Manchester/Liverpool to London) is about £75ish off-peak or double that at peak times?
If British railways are under severe financial pressure, the French rail network must be on its knees.
Our companies still have to pay the shareholders, thats why they are on thier knees.
LNER, TPE and Scotrail are all run by the Goverment.
Basically the entire rail network is nationalised at the moment…
Those 3 companies are all full government operated… the other train operators are all still on the Covid contract where the government pays them a fixed fee to run the services
Arguably the worse of all situations. We now pay the train opperating companies to run our railway risk free. So we lose a good part of the theoretical advantages to private sector running and competition. The government now calls all the shots. So basically the ticket payer and tax payer continue to pay middle parties and share holders tons of cash to run our railways to government instructions. Now there's no hiding it. Its literally become just a mechanism to hand over public cash to the private sector for no reason. Basically we all pay a huge premium so the government can try and retain some slight of hand say the private sector still is key to the railway to stay in keeping with Conservative ideology. We all pay the price because Tories will never admit (even in the face of the failed franchise system) that the private sector has no place running our railways.
Meanwhile let's not forget running quietly in the background and often forgotten about the rolling stock leasing companies continue to to make huge profits leasing trains back to us. Including many older trains that did once actually once belong to us all from British Rail days.
It's a sick system.
There basically is no profit to be made at the moment in the train industry… so if the government didn’t pay the franchisees a fixed fee to operate the services, companies would just hand back the franchise’s and the government would have to run them all anyway (and all staff basically become government employees)
It’s no win at the moment, it’s basically nationalisation by a different name…"
Then they should remove the middle man milking the system risk free and offer all the staff new contracts. |
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The average gross monthly earnings of train drivers as adjusted for PPS ranged from €1,206 in Bulgaria to €4,392 in the UK in 2021. They were above €2,500 in Denmark, Germany and France.
So is it supporting fat cat train drivers? |
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