FabSwingers.com > Forums > Politics > Austin Killips
Austin Killips
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"But it'll only be one way " I suppose it will really be a second men's category, for men who aren't that good at the sport but are better than women. | |||
"Yes, all sports should now have a trans category and at all levels of the sport " Totally agree. If at grass roots young girls have to compete against boys who identify as girls (they won’t have transitioned yet) it will put them off as it becomes pointless. | |||
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"I struggle with this question and I'm sure I've flip flopped over time. For me, the ideas of classifications, be it gender, age, weight, or disability is an attempt to make sporty more accessible and also competitive to more people. Trans sports people in their identified gender classification is seen as putting the competitiveness at risk, but excluding them means parking their ability to compete. I also suspect the answer varies by sport. Different sports have different gaps between genders. The cyclist hasn't blown the field apart. That's why it's only news now. And it seems cycling to a lot to try and keep the field level. So unless cycling has huge advantages from height etc, maybe it can allow trans women to compete fine. More so than say, basketball. I also suspect that there is a different approach for professional v amateur. There was an article where a marathon finisher was trans and someone complained she stole places. She finished something like 5,000. Are you worried about placement at that level or just your own time ? Finally, while these are less, I do note that we used to have headlines about girls having to stop football because they went allowed in the boys team. Or equal pay. That feels like it could be the other side of the coin here. Not 100px sure how, but worth reflecting on views here with views on trans competitors. There may be some conflict..." Is it fair to say female trans can only compete in male competition? I guess the answer will be a no, as you will like many have listened to the struggles of female trans and say it is not recognising them as who they identify. If you supported the inclusion of trans females into female sports categories are you justifying your reasoning based on a trans persons feelings and rights of their new identitification? Following that same approach how do you justify your acceptance of trans female athletes to a born female who has trained her whole life and now faces competition from a trans female, are you giving those born female athletes the same considerations? How would you explain this position of thought to female athletes at all levels, not just elite. | |||
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"There us a reason male and female sports people do not compete against each other and have their own categories. For para athletes they have multiple categories to reflect their own specific challenges to their competing. It is to make it FAIR. No reason at all that there cannot either be a Trans category(s) or at least an Open Category alongside Male and Female categories in all sports."  | |||
"There us a reason male and female sports people do not compete against each other and have their own categories. For para athletes they have multiple categories to reflect their own specific challenges to their competing. It is to make it FAIR. No reason at all that there cannot either be a Trans category(s) or at least an Open Category alongside Male and Female categories in all sports. "The controversy is people born male competing against females. I posted some research above that explains why this is unfair (in any age category not just elite sports). Notice how there is no controversy about people born female competing in male sports. Why is that? | |||
"There us a reason male and female sports people do not compete against each other and have their own categories. For para athletes they have multiple categories to reflect their own specific challenges to their competing. It is to make it FAIR. No reason at all that there cannot either be a Trans category(s) or at least an Open Category alongside Male and Female categories in all sports." is it to make it fair or competitive? And is that the same thing? Also, what is meant by fair? (Not being argumentative, but if there are some fundamental differences in views here... And previous threads suggest there is... Consensus will never be reached). | |||
"There us a reason male and female sports people do not compete against each other and have their own categories. For para athletes they have multiple categories to reflect their own specific challenges to their competing. It is to make it FAIR. No reason at all that there cannot either be a Trans category(s) or at least an Open Category alongside Male and Female categories in all sports.is it to make it fair or competitive? And is that the same thing? Also, what is meant by fair? (Not being argumentative, but if there are some fundamental differences in views here... And previous threads suggest there is... Consensus will never be reached). " I will refer you to my earlier post containing the research. Males (even before puberty) outperform females in all sports. There are physiological reasons for this and ignoring them is not fair. If you have no fairness in sport then it ceases to be competitive. I really cannot see a counter argument to this. I 100% defend the right for a person born male to identify as a female and to then go through gender reassignment and hormone therapy. But that right should not be to the detriment of women’s rights and in sports in particular that is being highlighted through performance advantages. | |||
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"Sure is cool that random posters on a swinging forum know better than the people who actually run the sport." You do realise that the membership of Fab (and indeed people into swinging) come from all walks of life and have backgrounds or currently work or have connections to all sorts of things right? Not everyone on here is just Dave from the pub | |||
"That's this one done then. You're not entitled to an opinion if you don't run said sport "Everyone's entitled to an opinion- doesn't mean it's worth listening to. | |||
"That's this one done then. You're not entitled to an opinion if you don't run said sport
Everyone's entitled to an opinion- doesn't mean it's worth listening to."Sorry who said that??? | |||
"Sure is cool that random posters on a swinging forum know better than the people who actually run the sport. You do realise that the membership of Fab (and indeed people into swinging) come from all walks of life and have backgrounds or currently work or have connections to all sorts of things right? Not everyone on here is just Dave from the pub "What an irrelevant comment. My point isn't "people on fabs are all ignorant", it's "maybe the experts who run their own sport know better than the people who aren't involved with it and have no more subtle a view than 'people assigned male at birth are better at sport'" | |||
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"Sure is cool that random posters on a swinging forum know better than the people who actually run the sport. You do realise that the membership of Fab (and indeed people into swinging) come from all walks of life and have backgrounds or currently work or have connections to all sorts of things right? Not everyone on here is just Dave from the pub
What an irrelevant comment.
My point isn't "people on fabs are all ignorant", it's "maybe the experts who run their own sport know better than the people who aren't involved with it and have no more subtle a view than 'people assigned male at birth are better at sport'""Or maybe some people are involved and read the research that is informing the discussion. It’s scientifically inarguable that males have a physical advantage over females in most sports. That isn’t me, some random, stating it. That is what the research says. I think we will start to see some changes coming across different sports in the next few years. | |||
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"Sure is cool that random posters on a swinging forum know better than the people who actually run the sport. You do realise that the membership of Fab (and indeed people into swinging) come from all walks of life and have backgrounds or currently work or have connections to all sorts of things right? Not everyone on here is just Dave from the pub
What an irrelevant comment.
My point isn't "people on fabs are all ignorant", it's "maybe the experts who run their own sport know better than the people who aren't involved with it and have no more subtle a view than 'people assigned male at birth are better at sport'""You would probably be right in saying that 'experts who run their sport' know more about said sport than most of us. You honestly think they know more than the scientists who clearly say that anyone who goes through puberty as a male has a distinct physical advantage over anyone who goes through puberty as a female? Maybe you shouldn't listen to scientists though because they don't know as much as a sports body CEO. | |||
"Sure is cool that random posters on a swinging forum know better than the people who actually run the sport. You do realise that the membership of Fab (and indeed people into swinging) come from all walks of life and have backgrounds or currently work or have connections to all sorts of things right? Not everyone on here is just Dave from the pub
What an irrelevant comment.
My point isn't "people on fabs are all ignorant", it's "maybe the experts who run their own sport know better than the people who aren't involved with it and have no more subtle a view than 'people assigned male at birth are better at sport'"
You would probably be right in saying that 'experts who run their sport' know more about said sport than most of us.
You honestly think they know more than the scientists who clearly say that anyone who goes through puberty as a male has a distinct physical advantage over anyone who goes through puberty as a female?
Maybe you shouldn't listen to scientists though because they don't know as much as a sports body CEO."I'd love to start seeing some links and not just claims about what scientists say. | |||
"Sure is cool that random posters on a swinging forum know better than the people who actually run the sport. You do realise that the membership of Fab (and indeed people into swinging) come from all walks of life and have backgrounds or currently work or have connections to all sorts of things right? Not everyone on here is just Dave from the pub
What an irrelevant comment.
My point isn't "people on fabs are all ignorant", it's "maybe the experts who run their own sport know better than the people who aren't involved with it and have no more subtle a view than 'people assigned male at birth are better at sport'"
You would probably be right in saying that 'experts who run their sport' know more about said sport than most of us.
You honestly think they know more than the scientists who clearly say that anyone who goes through puberty as a male has a distinct physical advantage over anyone who goes through puberty as a female?
Maybe you shouldn't listen to scientists though because they don't know as much as a sports body CEO.
I'd love to start seeing some links and not just claims about what scientists say."https://bjsm.bmj.com/content/55/11/577.full?ijkey=yjlCzZVZFRDZzHz&keytype=ref Pretty sure the BMJ are a well respected organisation. | |||
"Would you like to give a link to this research? As far as I'm aware the matter is not at all settled scientifically, not least because there are few trans athletes to provide data." You don't need trans atheletes to provide the data. You get the data from biological.men and women. Hormones dont affect the lung capacity, bone density etc that occurr during puberty. I'll see if I can go dig it up again. I'll see ifni can dig it out. | |||
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"Sure is cool that random posters on a swinging forum know better than the people who actually run the sport. You do realise that the membership of Fab (and indeed people into swinging) come from all walks of life and have backgrounds or currently work or have connections to all sorts of things right? Not everyone on here is just Dave from the pub
What an irrelevant comment.
My point isn't "people on fabs are all ignorant", it's "maybe the experts who run their own sport know better than the people who aren't involved with it and have no more subtle a view than 'people assigned male at birth are better at sport'"
You would probably be right in saying that 'experts who run their sport' know more about said sport than most of us.
You honestly think they know more than the scientists who clearly say that anyone who goes through puberty as a male has a distinct physical advantage over anyone who goes through puberty as a female?
Maybe you shouldn't listen to scientists though because they don't know as much as a sports body CEO.
I'd love to start seeing some links and not just claims about what scientists say.
https://bjsm.bmj.com/content/55/11/577.full?ijkey=yjlCzZVZFRDZzHz&keytype=ref
Pretty sure the BMJ are a well respected organisation."This is an interesting one, albeit of only 46 people who aren't professional athletes. You'll note the conclusion is that differences basically vanish after 2 years on oestrogen, and their conclusion is that 1 year may not be enough, not that trans women will always be at an unfair advantage no matter what, as some people want to insist. | |||
"Would you like to give a link to this research? As far as I'm aware the matter is not at all settled scientifically, not least because there are few trans athletes to provide data. You don't need trans atheletes to provide the data. You get the data from biological.men and women. Hormones dont affect the lung capacity, bone density etc that occurr during puberty. I'll see if I can go dig it up again. I'll see ifni can dig it out." "You don't need data on the actual thing we're talking about", yeah, great, thanks for reminding me why I don't bother "debating" on here usually. | |||
"Cannot post some links on here but there is an interesting article by the Center for Sport Policy and Conduct (yes centre is spelled correctly because they are American)." An article, not a study? That you can't even give the title of to make it Google-able? Ok, I'm out, thanks to the one person who actually posted something proper. | |||
"Sure is cool that random posters on a swinging forum know better than the people who actually run the sport. You do realise that the membership of Fab (and indeed people into swinging) come from all walks of life and have backgrounds or currently work or have connections to all sorts of things right? Not everyone on here is just Dave from the pub
What an irrelevant comment.
My point isn't "people on fabs are all ignorant", it's "maybe the experts who run their own sport know better than the people who aren't involved with it and have no more subtle a view than 'people assigned male at birth are better at sport'"
You would probably be right in saying that 'experts who run their sport' know more about said sport than most of us.
You honestly think they know more than the scientists who clearly say that anyone who goes through puberty as a male has a distinct physical advantage over anyone who goes through puberty as a female?
Maybe you shouldn't listen to scientists though because they don't know as much as a sports body CEO.
I'd love to start seeing some links and not just claims about what scientists say.
https://bjsm.bmj.com/content/55/11/577.full?ijkey=yjlCzZVZFRDZzHz&keytype=ref
Pretty sure the BMJ are a well respected organisation.
This is an interesting one, albeit of only 46 people who aren't professional athletes.
You'll note the conclusion is that differences basically vanish after 2 years on oestrogen, and their conclusion is that 1 year may not be enough, not that trans women will always be at an unfair advantage no matter what, as some people want to insist."They don't need to be athletes. We're speaking about biological differences between cis and trans women. Basically vanish? Are you cherry picking? We can all do that. Here's one for you: "Transwomen retain an advantage in endurance (1.5 mile run) over female controls for over 2 years after starting gender affirming hormones." | |||
"Cannot post some links on here but there is an interesting article by the Center for Sport Policy and Conduct (yes centre is spelled correctly because they are American). An article, not a study? That you can't even give the title of to make it Google-able? Ok, I'm out, thanks to the one person who actually posted something proper. " You can’t put those words in Google and find it 
Okey dokey!
BTW I quoted some of it above. The article draws on studies but brings the findings together. | |||
