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Suella plays the race card again…
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By *abio OP Man
over a year ago
Newcastle and Gateshead |
She said grooming gangs are a stain on society.. she’s not wrong there!
She then went on to say that the majority of grooming gangs were “of British Pakistani origin “….. erm… the right wing stereotype playing up to an audience of.. well.. you know!
Anyway…. If she had looked at her own home office, they did a report on this subject in 2020… and if was found that 84% of grooming offences were committed by white men!
I know… shocker!
So… does she owe that community an apology? |
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By *irldnCouple
over a year ago
Brighton |
You’ll possibly get someone raising proportionality as an excuse? ie what proportion of the UK population fall into which ethnic group.
I do not see any reason why she had to make any reference to ethnicity. The crime is abhorrent regardless who commits it! |
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By *abio OP Man
over a year ago
Newcastle and Gateshead |
"You’ll possibly get someone raising proportionality as an excuse? ie what proportion of the UK population fall into which ethnic group.
I do not see any reason why she had to make any reference to ethnicity. The crime is abhorrent regardless who commits it!"
The same report also said that black and Pakistani people were over represented in figures.. so that should also kill that myth….  |
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By *irldnCouple
over a year ago
Brighton |
"You’ll possibly get someone raising proportionality as an excuse? ie what proportion of the UK population fall into which ethnic group.
I do not see any reason why she had to make any reference to ethnicity. The crime is abhorrent regardless who commits it!
The same report also said that black and Pakistani people were over represented in figures.. so that should also kill that myth…. "
Sounds like they used a flawed methodology. SB’s SpAds must really like stirring things up! |
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"She said grooming gangs are a stain on society.. she’s not wrong there!
She then went on to say that the majority of grooming gangs were “of British Pakistani origin “….. erm… the right wing stereotype playing up to an audience of.. well.. you know!
Anyway…. If she had looked at her own home office, they did a report on this subject in 2020… and if was found that 84% of grooming offences were committed by white men!
I know… shocker!
So… does she owe that community an apology? "
The report said that the Asian community is over represented on the date |
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"You’ll possibly get someone raising proportionality as an excuse? ie what proportion of the UK population fall into which ethnic group.
I do not see any reason why she had to make any reference to ethnicity. The crime is abhorrent regardless who commits it!"
Further I the report it goes on to discuss motivations and enablers. That's an interesting part and relates to the ethnicity.
Also worth noting because of failures in Rotherham etc. Many weren't prosecuted because forces were told not to get involved. |
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By *otMe66Man
over a year ago
Terra Firma |
The report is a bit strange in that it openly admits from the start that is doesn't have reliable data and the Home Secretary's forward pretty much sums it up, I have added that below.
I hope things have changed at a reporting level to better identify and collect data on individuals and gangs.
The report is also not clear on what it is trying to report on, is it gangs of men or individuals. If I was the Home Secretary and this report had come across my desk I think I would have sent Raab to have a word...
"The paper sets out the limited available evidence on the characteristics of offenders including how they operate, ethnicity, age, offender networks, as well as the context in which these crimes are often committed, along with implications for frontline responses and for policy development.?
Some studies have indicated an over-representation of Asian and Black offenders. However, it is difficult to draw conclusions about the ethnicity of offenders as existing research is limited and data collection is poor. This is disappointing because community and cultural factors are clearly relevant to understanding and tackling offending. Therefore, a commitment to improve the collection and analysis of data on group-based child sexual exploitation, including in relation to characteristics of offenders such as ethnicity and other factors, will be included in the forthcoming Tackling Child Sexual Abuse Strategy." |
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"At least the victims of these crimes are now able to peruse the perpetrators in the civil courts.
Pursue? "
I need to start proofreading my posts.
Yes a victim has successfully won a civil case and sued for over 420k.
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By *ercuryMan
over a year ago
Grantham |
The conviction of the Walsall and Wolverhampton child sexual abuse gang, just shows that this abhorrent crime shouldn't be judged on race.
This white gang, numbering around 20 men and women, have rightly received lengthy jail sentences.
Child abusers need to be hunted down and condemned, and the issue shouldn't be clouded by skin colour or religion.
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"The conviction of the Walsall and Wolverhampton child sexual abuse gang, just shows that this abhorrent crime shouldn't be judged on race.
This white gang, numbering around 20 men and women, have rightly received lengthy jail sentences.
Child abusers need to be hunted down and condemned, and the issue shouldn't be clouded by skin colour or religion.
"
This is it.
Sad to see when it gets highjacked by people trying to turn it into a race/religion issue. |
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By *eroy1000Man
over a year ago
milton keynes |
"You’ll possibly get someone raising proportionality as an excuse? ie what proportion of the UK population fall into which ethnic group.
I do not see any reason why she had to make any reference to ethnicity. The crime is abhorrent regardless who commits it!
Further I the report it goes on to discuss motivations and enablers. That's an interesting part and relates to the ethnicity.
Also worth noting because of failures in Rotherham etc. Many weren't prosecuted because forces were told not to get involved."
Seems very odd for the police to be told not to get involved in criminal matters. I thought it was their main job. Surely all crimes, especially these heinous ones need to be fully investigated |
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"The conviction of the Walsall and Wolverhampton child sexual abuse gang, just shows that this abhorrent crime shouldn't be judged on race.
This white gang, numbering around 20 men and women, have rightly received lengthy jail sentences.
Child abusers need to be hunted down and condemned, and the issue shouldn't be clouded by skin colour or religion.
"
Absolutely spot on, nor should anyone be tolerated in using the same as an excuse for inflammatory and divisive hate based rhetoric.. |
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It would appear that the data for the 2020 report is poor. The sample was small and the ethnicity of the perpetrators was based on the police's opinion not the true race. It also made little or no reference to the proportion of the perp's race in the country.
I think the only thing we should agree on as right is, no prosecution should be dropped because if the ethnicity of the alledged perps. |
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"It would appear that the data for the 2020 report is poor. The sample was small and the ethnicity of the perpetrators was based on the police's opinion not the true race. It also made little or no reference to the proportion of the perp's race in the country.
I think the only thing we should agree on as right is, no prosecution should be dropped because if the ethnicity of the alledged perps. "
I dont think the sample was small. It was 4 different analysis.
They found 2 issues of 1400 epoch was a whit eperosn declared BAME and if inremember a Pakistani declared as asian in the report of 1400 individuals.
That's not a bad statistical error.
The report highlights how many bame are represented. I also believe tbe analysis is before the Asian grooming gangs begmcame owdely known and convictions began happening. |
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"The conviction of the Walsall and Wolverhampton child sexual abuse gang, just shows that this abhorrent crime shouldn't be judged on race.
This white gang, numbering around 20 men and women, have rightly received lengthy jail sentences.
Child abusers need to be hunted down and condemned, and the issue shouldn't be clouded by skin colour or religion.
This is it.
Sad to see when it gets highjacked by people trying to turn it into a race/religion issue."
The report suggests that.
Studies have indicated that societal and cultural issues around misogyny may also
be an enabling factor. Objectification of women in society has been suggested as a
reason why violence against girls may be normalised and accepted. One study,
which mostly involved offenders from ethnic minorities, suggested several potential
factors driving CSE offenders in the cases they examined. These included societal
influence as part of a culture of misogyny and objectification, cultural patriarchal
issues, lack of challenge in the community and a lack of sex education.
65 The
perceived drivers of offending tended to vary across the cases we examined, but
some common themes highlighted by investigators included: opportunism,
misogyny and disregard for women, and a desire for sexual gratificatio |
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By *asyukMan
over a year ago
West London |
"She said grooming gangs are a stain on society.. she’s not wrong there!
She then went on to say that the majority of grooming gangs were “of British Pakistani origin “….. erm… the right wing stereotype playing up to an audience of.. well.. you know!
Anyway…. If she had looked at her own home office, they did a report on this subject in 2020… and if was found that 84% of grooming offences were committed by white men!
I know… shocker!
So… does she owe that community an apology? "
Definitely a dog whistle.
The implication being that ethnic minority grooming is the most important issue, not grooming full stop.
Creating a wedge on the issue rather than unity. |
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By *asyukMan
over a year ago
West London |
"It would appear that the data for the 2020 report is poor. The sample was small and the ethnicity of the perpetrators was based on the police's opinion not the true race. It also made little or no reference to the proportion of the perp's race in the country.
I think the only thing we should agree on as right is, no prosecution should be dropped because if the ethnicity of the alledged perps.
I dont think the sample was small. It was 4 different analysis.
They found 2 issues of 1400 epoch was a whit eperosn declared BAME and if inremember a Pakistani declared as asian in the report of 1400 individuals.
That's not a bad statistical error.
The report highlights how many bame are represented. I also believe tbe analysis is before the Asian grooming gangs begmcame owdely known and convictions began happening."
It is very strange that you choose to disagree when the reports own compilers highlight what they consider inadequacies in the data.
Arguing with every detail of data that you don't like and accepting all data that you agree with doesn't make you rigorous in your analysis.
Cleverly arguing your bias doesn't demonstrate your intellect as you may think that it does. |
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"It would appear that the data for the 2020 report is poor. The sample was small and the ethnicity of the perpetrators was based on the police's opinion not the true race. It also made little or no reference to the proportion of the perp's race in the country.
I think the only thing we should agree on as right is, no prosecution should be dropped because if the ethnicity of the alledged perps.
I dont think the sample was small. It was 4 different analysis.
They found 2 issues of 1400 epoch was a whit eperosn declared BAME and if inremember a Pakistani declared as asian in the report of 1400 individuals.
That's not a bad statistical error.
The report highlights how many bame are represented. I also believe tbe analysis is before the Asian grooming gangs begmcame owdely known and convictions began happening.
It is very strange that you choose to disagree when the reports own compilers highlight what they consider inadequacies in the data.
Arguing with every detail of data that you don't like and accepting all data that you agree with doesn't make you rigorous in your analysis.
Cleverly arguing your bias doesn't demonstrate your intellect as you may think that it does."
I am pointing out things again.
These are words from the report itself.
The report says there is a lack of quality but also takes it upon itself to highlight the over representation.
The report also uses tbe 4 studies before grooming gangs in Rotherham etc were tried.
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So even though we already see an over representation in the data. Where 0.2% of examples were misallocated the wrong ethnicity.
This was all WAY before the grooming gangs scandal came to light and the subsequent charges.
It would be good to see the modern data.
I jave searched the FOI request on this and quelle surprise...they have been rejected. |
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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago
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From the 2020 report
"Based on the existing evidence, and our understanding of the flaws in the existing data, it seems most likely that the ethnicity of group-based CSE offenders is in line with CSA more generally and with the general population, with the majority of offenders being White."
Which tbh surprised me given some of the other points. |
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"From the 2020 report
"Based on the existing evidence, and our understanding of the flaws in the existing data, it seems most likely that the ethnicity of group-based CSE offenders is in line with CSA more generally and with the general population, with the majority of offenders being White."
Which tbh surprised me given some of the other points. "
You missed out the sentence beforehand which is key.
"It remains difficult to compare the make-up of the offender population with the local demography of certain areas, in"
This is talking about local boroughs I believe? Not the general population as a whole. Given the sentences that prceeded it.
Again. This evidence was gathered before we knew of the grooming gang scandals |
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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago
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"From the 2020 report
"Based on the existing evidence, and our understanding of the flaws in the existing data, it seems most likely that the ethnicity of group-based CSE offenders is in line with CSA more generally and with the general population, with the majority of offenders being White."
Which tbh surprised me given some of the other points.
You missed out the sentence beforehand which is key.
"It remains difficult to compare the make-up of the offender population with the local demography of certain areas, in"
This is talking about local boroughs I believe? Not the general population as a whole. Given the sentences that prceeded it.
Again. This evidence was gathered before we knew of the grooming gang scandals "
I read that as being because some reports were specific to locations. So you'd need to allow for that when making conclusions.
More recent data is needed. I agree. However we probably shouldn't call it a XXX problem when the data doesn't show it (yet) based only on high profile cases.
(And where we do call it XXX we should be very precises with our definition). |
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"From the 2020 report
"Based on the existing evidence, and our understanding of the flaws in the existing data, it seems most likely that the ethnicity of group-based CSE offenders is in line with CSA more generally and with the general population, with the majority of offenders being White."
Which tbh surprised me given some of the other points.
You missed out the sentence beforehand which is key.
"It remains difficult to compare the make-up of the offender population with the local demography of certain areas, in"
This is talking about local boroughs I believe? Not the general population as a whole. Given the sentences that prceeded it.
Again. This evidence was gathered before we knew of the grooming gang scandals I read that as being because some reports were specific to locations. So you'd need to allow for that when making conclusions.
More recent data is needed. I agree. However we probably shouldn't call it a XXX problem when the data doesn't show it (yet) based only on high profile cases.
(And where we do call it XXX we should be very precises with our definition). "
The data shows it. It caveats it with how it might have frailties e.g the 0.2% incorrect assertion on ethnicity.
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By *asyukMan
over a year ago
West London |
"Perhaps she’s currying favour with Mohdi? "
Ignoring the terrible pun, this is very likely to be a factor.
India is economically significant and the target of a trade deal. Pakistan is not.
I suspect that the British Indian Hindu voting demographic is far more a Conservative party target demographic than British Pakistani Muslims. |
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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago
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"From the 2020 report
"Based on the existing evidence, and our understanding of the flaws in the existing data, it seems most likely that the ethnicity of group-based CSE offenders is in line with CSA more generally and with the general population, with the majority of offenders being White."
Which tbh surprised me given some of the other points.
You missed out the sentence beforehand which is key.
"It remains difficult to compare the make-up of the offender population with the local demography of certain areas, in"
This is talking about local boroughs I believe? Not the general population as a whole. Given the sentences that prceeded it.
Again. This evidence was gathered before we knew of the grooming gang scandals I read that as being because some reports were specific to locations. So you'd need to allow for that when making conclusions.
More recent data is needed. I agree. However we probably shouldn't call it a XXX problem when the data doesn't show it (yet) based only on high profile cases.
(And where we do call it XXX we should be very precises with our definition).
The data shows it. It caveats it with how it might have frailties e.g the 0.2% incorrect assertion on ethnicity.
"
imo that's a distraction. There's a shit load of missing data and so noone knows, hence "it is difficult to draw conclusions about the ethnicity of offenders as existing research is limited and data collection is poor."
And
"it is not possible to conclude that this [over represention of minorities] is representative of all group-based CSE offending. This is due to issues such as data quality problems, the way the samples were selected in studies, and the potential for bias and inaccuracies in the way that ethnicity data is collected."
So I'm suprised you state so definitely the data proves it.
And while I accept the studies were old, in 2020 data about live cases was commissioned. There are limitations about this approach too, but at least gives a more recent picture, albeit based on only 70 cases and so not creating credible analysis outside of noting a wide range of nationaliteia were under investigation.
Like I said, is supect there are pockets of over represention.
However is there any data that comes close to suggesting that it's almoat always british-pakistani men (the SB claim)?
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"Perhaps she’s currying favour with Mohdi?
Ignoring the terrible pun, this is very likely to be a factor.
India is economically significant and the target of a trade deal. Pakistan is not.
I suspect that the British Indian Hindu voting demographic is far more a Conservative party target demographic than British Pakistani Muslims."
Yes I should hang my head in shame for the terrible pun but I do have my suspicions that Suella finds Mohdis populism way too attractive |
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"From the 2020 report
"Based on the existing evidence, and our understanding of the flaws in the existing data, it seems most likely that the ethnicity of group-based CSE offenders is in line with CSA more generally and with the general population, with the majority of offenders being White."
Which tbh surprised me given some of the other points.
You missed out the sentence beforehand which is key.
"It remains difficult to compare the make-up of the offender population with the local demography of certain areas, in"
This is talking about local boroughs I believe? Not the general population as a whole. Given the sentences that prceeded it.
Again. This evidence was gathered before we knew of the grooming gang scandals I read that as being because some reports were specific to locations. So you'd need to allow for that when making conclusions.
More recent data is needed. I agree. However we probably shouldn't call it a XXX problem when the data doesn't show it (yet) based only on high profile cases.
(And where we do call it XXX we should be very precises with our definition).
The data shows it. It caveats it with how it might have frailties e.g the 0.2% incorrect assertion on ethnicity.
imo that's a distraction. There's a shit load of missing data and so noone knows, hence "it is difficult to draw conclusions about the ethnicity of offenders as existing research is limited and data collection is poor."
And
"it is not possible to conclude that this [over represention of minorities] is representative of all group-based CSE offending. This is due to issues such as data quality problems, the way the samples were selected in studies, and the potential for bias and inaccuracies in the way that ethnicity data is collected."
So I'm suprised you state so definitely the data proves it.
And while I accept the studies were old, in 2020 data about live cases was commissioned. There are limitations about this approach too, but at least gives a more recent picture, albeit based on only 70 cases and so not creating credible analysis outside of noting a wide range of nationaliteia were under investigation.
Like I said, is supect there are pockets of over represention.
However is there any data that comes close to suggesting that it's almoat always british-pakistani men (the SB claim)?
"
The data proves it but just puts in a caveat there were problems with declarations in o.2% of cases in 1 of the reports.
All 4 reports suggest a large over representation in the grooming gangs. This is not coincidence
And thisnksnall before the major grooming scandals came.to light. It will only get worse. |
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By *asyukMan
over a year ago
West London |
"From the 2020 report
"Based on the existing evidence, and our understanding of the flaws in the existing data, it seems most likely that the ethnicity of group-based CSE offenders is in line with CSA more generally and with the general population, with the majority of offenders being White."
Which tbh surprised me given some of the other points.
You missed out the sentence beforehand which is key.
"It remains difficult to compare the make-up of the offender population with the local demography of certain areas, in"
This is talking about local boroughs I believe? Not the general population as a whole. Given the sentences that prceeded it.
Again. This evidence was gathered before we knew of the grooming gang scandals I read that as being because some reports were specific to locations. So you'd need to allow for that when making conclusions.
More recent data is needed. I agree. However we probably shouldn't call it a XXX problem when the data doesn't show it (yet) based only on high profile cases.
(And where we do call it XXX we should be very precises with our definition).
The data shows it. It caveats it with how it might have frailties e.g the 0.2% incorrect assertion on ethnicity.
imo that's a distraction. There's a shit load of missing data and so noone knows, hence "it is difficult to draw conclusions about the ethnicity of offenders as existing research is limited and data collection is poor."
And
"it is not possible to conclude that this [over represention of minorities] is representative of all group-based CSE offending. This is due to issues such as data quality problems, the way the samples were selected in studies, and the potential for bias and inaccuracies in the way that ethnicity data is collected."
So I'm suprised you state so definitely the data proves it.
And while I accept the studies were old, in 2020 data about live cases was commissioned. There are limitations about this approach too, but at least gives a more recent picture, albeit based on only 70 cases and so not creating credible analysis outside of noting a wide range of nationaliteia were under investigation.
Like I said, is supect there are pockets of over represention.
However is there any data that comes close to suggesting that it's almoat always british-pakistani men (the SB claim)?
The data proves it but just puts in a caveat there were problems with declarations in o.2% of cases in 1 of the reports.
All 4 reports suggest a large over representation in the grooming gangs. This is not coincidence
And thisnksnall before the major grooming scandals came.to light. It will only get worse."
Are grooming gangs a bigger problem than isolated abuse.
Why make the distinction at all?
Why not just state that it is a problem and fix it?
The reports still call themselves out. Why argue against them at all? |
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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago
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"From the 2020 report
"Based on the existing evidence, and our understanding of the flaws in the existing data, it seems most likely that the ethnicity of group-based CSE offenders is in line with CSA more generally and with the general population, with the majority of offenders being White."
Which tbh surprised me given some of the other points.
You missed out the sentence beforehand which is key.
"It remains difficult to compare the make-up of the offender population with the local demography of certain areas, in"
This is talking about local boroughs I believe? Not the general population as a whole. Given the sentences that prceeded it.
Again. This evidence was gathered before we knew of the grooming gang scandals I read that as being because some reports were specific to locations. So you'd need to allow for that when making conclusions.
More recent data is needed. I agree. However we probably shouldn't call it a XXX problem when the data doesn't show it (yet) based only on high profile cases.
(And where we do call it XXX we should be very precises with our definition).
The data shows it. It caveats it with how it might have frailties e.g the 0.2% incorrect assertion on ethnicity.
imo that's a distraction. There's a shit load of missing data and so noone knows, hence "it is difficult to draw conclusions about the ethnicity of offenders as existing research is limited and data collection is poor."
And
"it is not possible to conclude that this [over represention of minorities] is representative of all group-based CSE offending. This is due to issues such as data quality problems, the way the samples were selected in studies, and the potential for bias and inaccuracies in the way that ethnicity data is collected."
So I'm suprised you state so definitely the data proves it.
And while I accept the studies were old, in 2020 data about live cases was commissioned. There are limitations about this approach too, but at least gives a more recent picture, albeit based on only 70 cases and so not creating credible analysis outside of noting a wide range of nationaliteia were under investigation.
Like I said, is supect there are pockets of over represention.
However is there any data that comes close to suggesting that it's almoat always british-pakistani men (the SB claim)?
The data proves it but just puts in a caveat there were problems with declarations in o.2% of cases in 1 of the reports.
All 4 reports suggest a large over representation in the grooming gangs. This is not coincidence
And thisnksnall before the major grooming scandals came.to light. It will only get worse."
Disagree. It's missing data that means we need caution.
"Due to the amount of missing data, both basic offender information and ethnicity specifically, these figures should be treated with caution."
"However, it should be noted that this data relates to a time period at least ten years ago when many agencies were less familiar with CSE. This work also did not distinguish between groups and gangs."
"However, as with CEOP (2011) these figures should be treated with caution due to the amount of missing data."
"As above (Berelowitz et al., 2012), it should be noted that when this work was carried out when many agencies were less familiar with CSE, and very little was recognised or recorded about this kind of offence or offender by police at the time."
"However, they note that this is likely magnified by skewed and incomplete data."
I'm not sure where your 0.2pf of cases is in the report (can you tell me.the section?) but it I struggle to believe that it would affect the significance of one piece of analysis, let alone mean the other investigations couldn't be cited with confidence if their results were significant.
And to repeat: I'm not disagreeing with your conclusion. I just disagree you can say your conclusion is shown conclusively by the data in the report.
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By *abio OP Man
over a year ago
Newcastle and Gateshead |
"So even though we already see an over representation in the data. Where 0.2% of examples were misallocated the wrong ethnicity.
This was all WAY before the grooming gangs scandal came to light and the subsequent charges.
It would be good to see the modern data.
I jave searched the FOI request on this and quelle surprise...they have been rejected."
This report is only 2 years old.. so therefore it would only be missing 2 years of data…. If you are saying that two years would make a big difference, I think you are either delusional or being very disingenuous |
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