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HS2 Delays
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"So fifty years after France opened their “first”high speed train line we are still struggling to open our first domestic line. Makes you proud how well this country has been run over the last fifty years. All that forward investing in our infrastructure is finally paying dividends!! Oh wait !! A potentially world beating and potentially rich country teeming with hard working people has been abused and stripped of its wealth by appalling governments. Self self self ad infinitum . Still the rich tax avoiders and foreign owners of our infrastructure are getting richer so win win for some." It's a bad joke | |||
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"What should we do to change things? Is it time for peaceful resistance and mass protests against the system as it stands? Or do we just shrug our shoulders and say well what can I do ? " Do you think the Labour party will offer something different on this issue | |||
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"When Sunak stood at the brand new lectern at Downing Street after becoming the unelected Prime Minister he talked of accountability , his government announced the delays to the press and not to The House of Commons , Mr Deputy Speaker was not too happy " The Speaker & his deputy never really do anything, though, do they? They basically just tell the unruly mob in the Commons to behave when they get too shouty. That's about it. | |||
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"When Sunak stood at the brand new lectern at Downing Street after becoming the unelected Prime Minister he talked of accountability , his government announced the delays to the press and not to The House of Commons , Mr Deputy Speaker was not too happy The Speaker & his deputy never really do anything, though, do they? They basically just tell the unruly mob in the Commons to behave when they get too shouty. That's about it." . ;, ,, totally agree , my point was more along "the lines " ( did you see what I did there) of Sunak promising accountability and not delivering | |||
"When Sunak stood at the brand new lectern at Downing Street after becoming the unelected Prime Minister he talked of accountability , his government announced the delays to the press and not to The House of Commons , Mr Deputy Speaker was not too happy The Speaker & his deputy never really do anything, though, do they? They basically just tell the unruly mob in the Commons to behave when they get too shouty. That's about it.. ;, ,, totally agree , my point was more along "the lines " ( did you see what I did there) of Sunak promising accountability and not delivering " I know what you meant. I was just commenting on the uselessness of the Speaker as an aside. (Nice train reference, by the way lol) | |||
"When Sunak stood at the brand new lectern at Downing Street after becoming the unelected Prime Minister he talked of accountability , his government announced the delays to the press and not to The House of Commons , Mr Deputy Speaker was not too happy The Speaker & his deputy never really do anything, though, do they? They basically just tell the unruly mob in the Commons to behave when they get too shouty. That's about it.. ;, ,, totally agree , my point was more along "the lines " ( did you see what I did there) of Sunak promising accountability and not delivering I know what you meant. I was just commenting on the uselessness of the Speaker as an aside. (Nice train reference, by the way lol)" . ,,, ,, yes , slightly off topic but every week in PMQs the speaker threatens to throw someone out for shouting , they know full well he won't ,, back to the train HS2 subject and it doesn't look like levelling up does it ??? | |||
"When Sunak stood at the brand new lectern at Downing Street after becoming the unelected Prime Minister he talked of accountability , his government announced the delays to the press and not to The House of Commons , Mr Deputy Speaker was not too happy The Speaker & his deputy never really do anything, though, do they? They basically just tell the unruly mob in the Commons to behave when they get too shouty. That's about it.. ;, ,, totally agree , my point was more along "the lines " ( did you see what I did there) of Sunak promising accountability and not delivering I know what you meant. I was just commenting on the uselessness of the Speaker as an aside. (Nice train reference, by the way lol). ,,, ,, yes , slightly off topic but every week in PMQs the speaker threatens to throw someone out for shouting , they know full well he won't ,, back to the train HS2 subject and it doesn't look like levelling up does it ???" There's gotta be a platform joke here somewhere. Trains, levelling up, platforms etc. | |||
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"What should we do to change things? Is it time for peaceful resistance and mass protests against the system as it stands? Or do we just shrug our shoulders and say well what can I do ? " peaceful resistance gets you no where,only time govs in this country listen to anyone is when it isnt peacefull, only time i seen a protest work was the poll tax and that was because central london was burning instead of peoples own areas wich usually happens | |||
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"HS2 should be cancelled entirely. It is a complete waste of money on a vanity project using Victorian technology. Unnecessary and unneeded. For a fraction of the price full fibre broadband could have been fitted to every UK property, thus reducing the need to travel. Some of the rest of the original budget should have been used to improve local rail connections, particularly east-west across the country." Full fibre broadband - hmmm seems that Corbyn did have some good ideas after all! | |||
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"Interesting points We have been able to afford it and in truth we can’t afford “not” to do it. Our infrastructure including road and rail is woefully inadequate and the cost to industry because of congestion is getting higher and higher. Just take one mile of tailbacks and calculate the waiting time/costs of the thousands of people and vehicles sitting in that queue. Multiply across the country every hour of every day. The project is a vanity project true but it is urgently needed to free up capacity for freight trains which is at breaking point. As a regular user of the west coast line I couldn’t care less about reaching London 20 mins earlier but the freight problem is more pressing. I also agree money should have been spent decades ago on northern trains which are a joke. Also what happened to the mooted motorway from Manchester to Sheffield? Interesting fallout on the IR35 and I hadn’t thought about that but yes huge consequences. Not sure about violent protesting but withdrawal of labour or refusal to pay tax etc . Something needs to change. " refusal to pay tax? Hows that gona work? The majority of workers in the uk are paye u dont get a chance to not pay your tax and withdrawing labour that not gona happen majority aint in unions and people need to pay bills, i decided i was gona withdraw my labour my job would send me my p45 | |||
"Interesting points We have been able to afford it and in truth we can’t afford “not” to do it. Our infrastructure including road and rail is woefully inadequate and the cost to industry because of congestion is getting higher and higher. Just take one mile of tailbacks and calculate the waiting time/costs of the thousands of people and vehicles sitting in that queue. Multiply across the country every hour of every day. The project is a vanity project true but it is urgently needed to free up capacity for freight trains which is at breaking point. As a regular user of the west coast line I couldn’t care less about reaching London 20 mins earlier but the freight problem is more pressing. I also agree money should have been spent decades ago on northern trains which are a joke. Also what happened to the mooted motorway from Manchester to Sheffield? Interesting fallout on the IR35 and I hadn’t thought about that but yes huge consequences. Not sure about violent protesting but withdrawal of labour or refusal to pay tax etc . Something needs to change. refusal to pay tax? Hows that gona work? The majority of workers in the uk are paye u dont get a chance to not pay your tax and withdrawing labour that not gona happen majority aint in unions and people need to pay bills, i decided i was gona withdraw my labour my job would send me my p45" Owners of firms pay your PAYE it’s not just taken! Council tax? Corporation tax , Vat. Etc I’m not even saying its a good idea it’s just a suggestion point. | |||
"One if the uncomfortable truths about HS2 (and indeed other major govt projects) is that HMT/HMRC have perversely screwed them over. How? IR35 that’s how. By steamrollering ahead with IR35 it meant that a huge chunk of the workforce on HS2 were moved from being outside IR35 to inside IR35. The contractors were for the most part irreplaceable so they rightly stood firm and said they would not take a cut to their net/take home pay. That meant the day rates for all the contractors had to be increased so HMRC could now start collecting employer NIC, apprenticeship levy, on top of employee NIC and tax on PAYE rates. The contractors also insisted they should not have to pay expenses out of their own pocket for things like accommodation, so the project had to also pick up that tab (previously when outside IR35 it was a tax deductible expense for the contractor). That caused the overall budget for HS2 (and other major projects) to balloon. The issue is that the way Govt accounting works, that extra tax take into HMT coffers (remember this is govt paying govt - we call that “wooden dollars”) is not then made available back to the project to cover their ballooning costs, so they overrun and need to bid for more money. However, the Spending Review will not have accounted for that, so there is “technically” no more money! Shitshow!" Agree fully about IR35. It is a poorly thought out knee jerk reaction to Gordon Brown's stupidity (the £10k tax free allowance for small companies) which led to so many fake contractors. The fallout made life very difficult for those of us who were taking genuine business risk. | |||
"Interesting points We have been able to afford it and in truth we can’t afford “not” to do it. Our infrastructure including road and rail is woefully inadequate and the cost to industry because of congestion is getting higher and higher. Just take one mile of tailbacks and calculate the waiting time/costs of the thousands of people and vehicles sitting in that queue. Multiply across the country every hour of every day. The project is a vanity project true but it is urgently needed to free up capacity for freight trains which is at breaking point. As a regular user of the west coast line I couldn’t care less about reaching London 20 mins earlier but the freight problem is more pressing. I also agree money should have been spent decades ago on northern trains which are a joke. Also what happened to the mooted motorway from Manchester to Sheffield? Interesting fallout on the IR35 and I hadn’t thought about that but yes huge consequences. Not sure about violent protesting but withdrawal of labour or refusal to pay tax etc . Something needs to change. refusal to pay tax? Hows that gona work? The majority of workers in the uk are paye u dont get a chance to not pay your tax and withdrawing labour that not gona happen majority aint in unions and people need to pay bills, i decided i was gona withdraw my labour my job would send me my p45" Nobody has refused to pay tax! You clearly do not understand IR35. Traditionally contractors were self employed and due to the nature of the work they did has to operate through their own Ltd company otherwise they would not be hired for the work. That is because a Ltd Co comes with various legal requirements including audited business accounts lodged with HMRC. That allows prospective hiring businesses to undertake due diligence on the contractor. The benefits to the contractor was the separation of business from individual (ie limited liability) and paying themselves dividends rather than a salary on their post Corporation Tax profits. So like any business they could deduct legitimate business expenses then calculate pre tax profits and pay CT. Then what is left is available to pay out as a dividend. As dividend tax is lower than income tax their net income was higher (although they have already paid corporation tax so the net result is actually comparable). The benefit to the hiring company was/is that these contractors are in a B2B relationship and are not staff. The hiring company therefore does not have to pay employer NIC or Apprenticeship Levy. Nor do they have to provide any benefits such as holiday or sick pay, mat/pat leave, redundancy, training, TUPE, employer pension contributions. Meaning it is cheaper for the hiring business. However, the Govt (HMT policy and HMRC enforcement) decided to implement IR35 (originally a Labour policy). This said long term contractors should be considered and taxed as employees. This has created a third employment type that helps nobody... “no rights employees” or inside IR35. In this scenario HMRC insists that employer NIC is payable, but get this, payable by the employee not the employer! Why? Who the fuck knows! Same goes for the Apprenticeship Levy. On top of this, these contractors are now deemed to be employees by HMRC (not freelance) so they can no longer claim tax deductible expenses such as accommodation when working away from home. On top of this these “employees” have no employment rights like real employees in the hiring company. No sick/holiday pay, mat/pat leave, redundancy or TUPE. And no notice period. And no employer pension contributions. So these contractors either take a massive pay cut of around 40-50% or if, as in the case with HS2, they have leverage (ie vital resource in short supply), they negotiate for the cost of employer NIC and AL (that should be paid by employers) to be paid by the hiring company not the contractor. Seems fair enough right? However, HMRC will only collect that from the contractor (because they are not employees, even though HMRC wants to tax them as employees - keeping up? I said it was a shitshow). So the only way to do that is for the hiring company to increase the day rate paid to the contractor so the money is there to pay HMRC. Ergo project costs have spiralled! | |||
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"Interesting points We have been able to afford it and in truth we can’t afford “not” to do it. Our infrastructure including road and rail is woefully inadequate and the cost to industry because of congestion is getting higher and higher. Just take one mile of tailbacks and calculate the waiting time/costs of the thousands of people and vehicles sitting in that queue. Multiply across the country every hour of every day. The project is a vanity project true but it is urgently needed to free up capacity for freight trains which is at breaking point. As a regular user of the west coast line I couldn’t care less about reaching London 20 mins earlier but the freight problem is more pressing. I also agree money should have been spent decades ago on northern trains which are a joke. Also what happened to the mooted motorway from Manchester to Sheffield? Interesting fallout on the IR35 and I hadn’t thought about that but yes huge consequences. Not sure about violent protesting but withdrawal of labour or refusal to pay tax etc . Something needs to change. refusal to pay tax? Hows that gona work? The majority of workers in the uk are paye u dont get a chance to not pay your tax and withdrawing labour that not gona happen majority aint in unions and people need to pay bills, i decided i was gona withdraw my labour my job would send me my p45 Nobody has refused to pay tax! You clearly do not understand IR35. Traditionally contractors were self employed and due to the nature of the work they did has to operate through their own Ltd company otherwise they would not be hired for the work. That is because a Ltd Co comes with various legal requirements including audited business accounts lodged with HMRC. That allows prospective hiring businesses to undertake due diligence on the contractor. The benefits to the contractor was the separation of business from individual (ie limited liability) and paying themselves dividends rather than a salary on their post Corporation Tax profits. So like any business they could deduct legitimate business expenses then calculate pre tax profits and pay CT. Then what is left is available to pay out as a dividend. As dividend tax is lower than income tax their net income was higher (although they have already paid corporation tax so the net result is actually comparable). The benefit to the hiring company was/is that these contractors are in a B2B relationship and are not staff. The hiring company therefore does not have to pay employer NIC or Apprenticeship Levy. Nor do they have to provide any benefits such as holiday or sick pay, mat/pat leave, redundancy, training, TUPE, employer pension contributions. Meaning it is cheaper for the hiring business. However, the Govt (HMT policy and HMRC enforcement) decided to implement IR35 (originally a Labour policy). This said long term contractors should be considered and taxed as employees. This has created a third employment type that helps nobody... “no rights employees” or inside IR35. In this scenario HMRC insists that employer NIC is payable, but get this, payable by the employee not the employer! Why? Who the fuck knows! Same goes for the Apprenticeship Levy. On top of this, these contractors are now deemed to be employees by HMRC (not freelance) so they can no longer claim tax deductible expenses such as accommodation when working away from home. On top of this these “employees” have no employment rights like real employees in the hiring company. No sick/holiday pay, mat/pat leave, redundancy or TUPE. And no notice period. And no employer pension contributions. So these contractors either take a massive pay cut of around 40-50% or if, as in the case with HS2, they have leverage (ie vital resource in short supply), they negotiate for the cost of employer NIC and AL (that should be paid by employers) to be paid by the hiring company not the contractor. Seems fair enough right? However, HMRC will only collect that from the contractor (because they are not employees, even though HMRC wants to tax them as employees - keeping up? I said it was a shitshow). So the only way to do that is for the hiring company to increase the day rate paid to the contractor so the money is there to pay HMRC. Ergo project costs have spiralled! " In Festival’s defence I think he was having a go at my comment on withholding tax not your comment on IR35.  | |||
"Interesting points We have been able to afford it and in truth we can’t afford “not” to do it. Our infrastructure including road and rail is woefully inadequate and the cost to industry because of congestion is getting higher and higher. Just take one mile of tailbacks and calculate the waiting time/costs of the thousands of people and vehicles sitting in that queue. Multiply across the country every hour of every day. The project is a vanity project true but it is urgently needed to free up capacity for freight trains which is at breaking point. As a regular user of the west coast line I couldn’t care less about reaching London 20 mins earlier but the freight problem is more pressing. I also agree money should have been spent decades ago on northern trains which are a joke. Also what happened to the mooted motorway from Manchester to Sheffield? Interesting fallout on the IR35 and I hadn’t thought about that but yes huge consequences. Not sure about violent protesting but withdrawal of labour or refusal to pay tax etc . Something needs to change. refusal to pay tax? Hows that gona work? The majority of workers in the uk are paye u dont get a chance to not pay your tax and withdrawing labour that not gona happen majority aint in unions and people need to pay bills, i decided i was gona withdraw my labour my job would send me my p45 Nobody has refused to pay tax! You clearly do not understand IR35. Traditionally contractors were self employed and due to the nature of the work they did has to operate through their own Ltd company otherwise they would not be hired for the work. That is because a Ltd Co comes with various legal requirements including audited business accounts lodged with HMRC. That allows prospective hiring businesses to undertake due diligence on the contractor. The benefits to the contractor was the separation of business from individual (ie limited liability) and paying themselves dividends rather than a salary on their post Corporation Tax profits. So like any business they could deduct legitimate business expenses then calculate pre tax profits and pay CT. Then what is left is available to pay out as a dividend. As dividend tax is lower than income tax their net income was higher (although they have already paid corporation tax so the net result is actually comparable). The benefit to the hiring company was/is that these contractors are in a B2B relationship and are not staff. The hiring company therefore does not have to pay employer NIC or Apprenticeship Levy. Nor do they have to provide any benefits such as holiday or sick pay, mat/pat leave, redundancy, training, TUPE, employer pension contributions. Meaning it is cheaper for the hiring business. However, the Govt (HMT policy and HMRC enforcement) decided to implement IR35 (originally a Labour policy). This said long term contractors should be considered and taxed as employees. This has created a third employment type that helps nobody... “no rights employees” or inside IR35. In this scenario HMRC insists that employer NIC is payable, but get this, payable by the employee not the employer! Why? Who the fuck knows! Same goes for the Apprenticeship Levy. On top of this, these contractors are now deemed to be employees by HMRC (not freelance) so they can no longer claim tax deductible expenses such as accommodation when working away from home. On top of this these “employees” have no employment rights like real employees in the hiring company. No sick/holiday pay, mat/pat leave, redundancy or TUPE. And no notice period. And no employer pension contributions. So these contractors either take a massive pay cut of around 40-50% or if, as in the case with HS2, they have leverage (ie vital resource in short supply), they negotiate for the cost of employer NIC and AL (that should be paid by employers) to be paid by the hiring company not the contractor. Seems fair enough right? However, HMRC will only collect that from the contractor (because they are not employees, even though HMRC wants to tax them as employees - keeping up? I said it was a shitshow). So the only way to do that is for the hiring company to increase the day rate paid to the contractor so the money is there to pay HMRC. Ergo project costs have spiralled! " You missed out CIS system take 20% flat on all income then pay it back up to 18 months later | |||
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"Interesting points We have been able to afford it and in truth we can’t afford “not” to do it. Our infrastructure including road and rail is woefully inadequate and the cost to industry because of congestion is getting higher and higher. Just take one mile of tailbacks and calculate the waiting time/costs of the thousands of people and vehicles sitting in that queue. Multiply across the country every hour of every day. The project is a vanity project true but it is urgently needed to free up capacity for freight trains which is at breaking point. As a regular user of the west coast line I couldn’t care less about reaching London 20 mins earlier but the freight problem is more pressing. I also agree money should have been spent decades ago on northern trains which are a joke. Also what happened to the mooted motorway from Manchester to Sheffield? Interesting fallout on the IR35 and I hadn’t thought about that but yes huge consequences. Not sure about violent protesting but withdrawal of labour or refusal to pay tax etc . Something needs to change. refusal to pay tax? Hows that gona work? The majority of workers in the uk are paye u dont get a chance to not pay your tax and withdrawing labour that not gona happen majority aint in unions and people need to pay bills, i decided i was gona withdraw my labour my job would send me my p45 Nobody has refused to pay tax! You clearly do not understand IR35. Traditionally contractors were self employed and due to the nature of the work they did has to operate through their own Ltd company otherwise they would not be hired for the work. That is because a Ltd Co comes with various legal requirements including audited business accounts lodged with HMRC. That allows prospective hiring businesses to undertake due diligence on the contractor. The benefits to the contractor was the separation of business from individual (ie limited liability) and paying themselves dividends rather than a salary on their post Corporation Tax profits. So like any business they could deduct legitimate business expenses then calculate pre tax profits and pay CT. Then what is left is available to pay out as a dividend. As dividend tax is lower than income tax their net income was higher (although they have already paid corporation tax so the net result is actually comparable). The benefit to the hiring company was/is that these contractors are in a B2B relationship and are not staff. The hiring company therefore does not have to pay employer NIC or Apprenticeship Levy. Nor do they have to provide any benefits such as holiday or sick pay, mat/pat leave, redundancy, training, TUPE, employer pension contributions. Meaning it is cheaper for the hiring business. However, the Govt (HMT policy and HMRC enforcement) decided to implement IR35 (originally a Labour policy). This said long term contractors should be considered and taxed as employees. This has created a third employment type that helps nobody... “no rights employees” or inside IR35. In this scenario HMRC insists that employer NIC is payable, but get this, payable by the employee not the employer! Why? Who the fuck knows! Same goes for the Apprenticeship Levy. On top of this, these contractors are now deemed to be employees by HMRC (not freelance) so they can no longer claim tax deductible expenses such as accommodation when working away from home. On top of this these “employees” have no employment rights like real employees in the hiring company. No sick/holiday pay, mat/pat leave, redundancy or TUPE. And no notice period. And no employer pension contributions. So these contractors either take a massive pay cut of around 40-50% or if, as in the case with HS2, they have leverage (ie vital resource in short supply), they negotiate for the cost of employer NIC and AL (that should be paid by employers) to be paid by the hiring company not the contractor. Seems fair enough right? However, HMRC will only collect that from the contractor (because they are not employees, even though HMRC wants to tax them as employees - keeping up? I said it was a shitshow). So the only way to do that is for the hiring company to increase the day rate paid to the contractor so the money is there to pay HMRC. Ergo project costs have spiralled! In Festival’s defence I think he was having a go at my comment on withholding tax not your comment on IR35. "In which case my apologies to Festival (but at least I was able to articulate the absurdity of IR35 as it stands! ) | |||
"... all these billions, for what, to save an approximate fifteen minutes from our nearest main train station in Crewe?" No, the purpose of HS2 is to get all the passenger trains off the existing lines, which can then be run much more efficiently to carry freight. Freight movement by train is increasing rapidly, but at the moment freight has to give way to the express passenger trains. Get rid of them, and we can run many more freight trains, taking more freight off the roads. | |||
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"er HS1, opened December 2009" And? | |||
"er HS1, opened December 2009 And? " Sorry that was a bit abrupt. Would you consider that a domestic line? Ebbsfleet does not detract from it being an international route. | |||
"... all these billions, for what, to save an approximate fifteen minutes from our nearest main train station in Crewe? No, the purpose of HS2 is to get all the passenger trains off the existing lines, which can then be run much more efficiently to carry freight. Freight movement by train is increasing rapidly, but at the moment freight has to give way to the express passenger trains. Get rid of them, and we can run many more freight trains, taking more freight off the roads." I wish more people would actually try to understand what HS2 is about. Instead they just listen to the usual big mouth nay sayers.! | |||
"So fifty years after France opened their “first”high speed train line we are still struggling to open our first domestic line. Makes you proud how well this country has been run over the last fifty years. All that forward investing in our infrastructure is finally paying dividends!! Oh wait !! A potentially world beating and potentially rich country teeming with hard working people has been abused and stripped of its wealth by appalling governments. Self self self ad infinitum . Still the rich tax avoiders and foreign owners of our infrastructure are getting richer so win win for some." The country doesn't actually need "HS" anything. That is vanity. What was and is needed most urgently by all accounts is the East-West connection across the North at any damned speed. That would actually give half the country a fighting chance of functioning as a joined up region to balance the pull to the South. Physical communication and commuting is as important as virtual. Even today. | |||
"So fifty years after France opened their “first”high speed train line we are still struggling to open our first domestic line. Makes you proud how well this country has been run over the last fifty years. All that forward investing in our infrastructure is finally paying dividends!! Oh wait !! A potentially world beating and potentially rich country teeming with hard working people has been abused and stripped of its wealth by appalling governments. Self self self ad infinitum . Still the rich tax avoiders and foreign owners of our infrastructure are getting richer so win win for some. The country doesn't actually need "HS" anything. That is vanity. What was and is needed most urgently by all accounts is the East-West connection across the North at any damned speed. That would actually give half the country a fighting chance of functioning as a joined up region to balance the pull to the South. Physical communication and commuting is as important as virtual. Even today." That is of course your own personal opinion. In reality as previous posters have stated, HS2 is needed to free up the existing track for freight. | |||
"So fifty years after France opened their “first”high speed train line we are still struggling to open our first domestic line. Makes you proud how well this country has been run over the last fifty years. All that forward investing in our infrastructure is finally paying dividends!! Oh wait !! A potentially world beating and potentially rich country teeming with hard working people has been abused and stripped of its wealth by appalling governments. Self self self ad infinitum . Still the rich tax avoiders and foreign owners of our infrastructure are getting richer so win win for some. The country doesn't actually need "HS" anything. That is vanity. What was and is needed most urgently by all accounts is the East-West connection across the North at any damned speed. That would actually give half the country a fighting chance of functioning as a joined up region to balance the pull to the South. Physical communication and commuting is as important as virtual. Even today. That is of course your own personal opinion. In reality as previous posters have stated, HS2 is needed to free up the existing track for freight. " It isn't needed as much as the East-West Northern connection which has been a huge gap for decades. No part needs to be high speed at all. The time benefit relative to the cost of up-specing the trains and track is negligible. | |||
"So fifty years after France opened their “first”high speed train line we are still struggling to open our first domestic line. Makes you proud how well this country has been run over the last fifty years. All that forward investing in our infrastructure is finally paying dividends!! Oh wait !! A potentially world beating and potentially rich country teeming with hard working people has been abused and stripped of its wealth by appalling governments. Self self self ad infinitum . Still the rich tax avoiders and foreign owners of our infrastructure are getting richer so win win for some. The country doesn't actually need "HS" anything. That is vanity. What was and is needed most urgently by all accounts is the East-West connection across the North at any damned speed. That would actually give half the country a fighting chance of functioning as a joined up region to balance the pull to the South. Physical communication and commuting is as important as virtual. Even today. That is of course your own personal opinion. In reality as previous posters have stated, HS2 is needed to free up the existing track for freight. It isn't needed as much as the East-West Northern connection which has been a huge gap for decades. No part needs to be high speed at all. The time benefit relative to the cost of up-specing the trains and track is negligible." Your own opinion again. I have no doubt if you had been around in the day, you would have argued in keeping horse and carts instead of the new fangled not needed steam engine.! | |||
"So fifty years after France opened their “first”high speed train line we are still struggling to open our first domestic line. Makes you proud how well this country has been run over the last fifty years. All that forward investing in our infrastructure is finally paying dividends!! Oh wait !! A potentially world beating and potentially rich country teeming with hard working people has been abused and stripped of its wealth by appalling governments. Self self self ad infinitum . Still the rich tax avoiders and foreign owners of our infrastructure are getting richer so win win for some. The country doesn't actually need "HS" anything. That is vanity. What was and is needed most urgently by all accounts is the East-West connection across the North at any damned speed. That would actually give half the country a fighting chance of functioning as a joined up region to balance the pull to the South. Physical communication and commuting is as important as virtual. Even today. That is of course your own personal opinion. In reality as previous posters have stated, HS2 is needed to free up the existing track for freight. It isn't needed as much as the East-West Northern connection which has been a huge gap for decades. No part needs to be high speed at all. The time benefit relative to the cost of up-specing the trains and track is negligible. Your own opinion again. I have no doubt if you had been around in the day, you would have argued in keeping horse and carts instead of the new fangled not needed steam engine.!" Nope. I have no problem with new technology. I agree that a North-South capacity increase is needed. A functioning Northern East-West connection has been needed and desired for far longer. Not just my opinion. Can you explain what is so important about reducing the journey time between London and Birmingham by half an hour compared to just increasing capacity at current speeds? I've never seen any explanation. | |||
"So fifty years after France opened their “first”high speed train line we are still struggling to open our first domestic line. Makes you proud how well this country has been run over the last fifty years. All that forward investing in our infrastructure is finally paying dividends!! Oh wait !! A potentially world beating and potentially rich country teeming with hard working people has been abused and stripped of its wealth by appalling governments. Self self self ad infinitum . Still the rich tax avoiders and foreign owners of our infrastructure are getting richer so win win for some. The country doesn't actually need "HS" anything. That is vanity. What was and is needed most urgently by all accounts is the East-West connection across the North at any damned speed. That would actually give half the country a fighting chance of functioning as a joined up region to balance the pull to the South. Physical communication and commuting is as important as virtual. Even today. That is of course your own personal opinion. In reality as previous posters have stated, HS2 is needed to free up the existing track for freight. It isn't needed as much as the East-West Northern connection which has been a huge gap for decades. No part needs to be high speed at all. The time benefit relative to the cost of up-specing the trains and track is negligible." Agree and fast trains don't like cold or heat as the tracks move and run slow anyway. So pointless no pun intended East West wound help meet North South as well. Same in the south with roads all go up to London the Honington to folkestone link was scraped 20 year back. | |||
"So fifty years after France opened their “first”high speed train line we are still struggling to open our first domestic line. Makes you proud how well this country has been run over the last fifty years. All that forward investing in our infrastructure is finally paying dividends!! Oh wait !! A potentially world beating and potentially rich country teeming with hard working people has been abused and stripped of its wealth by appalling governments. Self self self ad infinitum . Still the rich tax avoiders and foreign owners of our infrastructure are getting richer so win win for some. The country doesn't actually need "HS" anything. That is vanity. What was and is needed most urgently by all accounts is the East-West connection across the North at any damned speed. That would actually give half the country a fighting chance of functioning as a joined up region to balance the pull to the South. Physical communication and commuting is as important as virtual. Even today. That is of course your own personal opinion. In reality as previous posters have stated, HS2 is needed to free up the existing track for freight. It isn't needed as much as the East-West Northern connection which has been a huge gap for decades. No part needs to be high speed at all. The time benefit relative to the cost of up-specing the trains and track is negligible. Your own opinion again. I have no doubt if you had been around in the day, you would have argued in keeping horse and carts instead of the new fangled not needed steam engine.! Nope. I have no problem with new technology. I agree that a North-South capacity increase is needed. A functioning Northern East-West connection has been needed and desired for far longer. Not just my opinion. Can you explain what is so important about reducing the journey time between London and Birmingham by half an hour compared to just increasing capacity at current speeds? I've never seen any explanation." Rail has gone backwards sins the Dr Beeching aking miles of track in the 60's | |||
"So fifty years after France opened their “first”high speed train line we are still struggling to open our first domestic line. Makes you proud how well this country has been run over the last fifty years. All that forward investing in our infrastructure is finally paying dividends!! Oh wait !! A potentially world beating and potentially rich country teeming with hard working people has been abused and stripped of its wealth by appalling governments. Self self self ad infinitum . Still the rich tax avoiders and foreign owners of our infrastructure are getting richer so win win for some. The country doesn't actually need "HS" anything. That is vanity. What was and is needed most urgently by all accounts is the East-West connection across the North at any damned speed. That would actually give half the country a fighting chance of functioning as a joined up region to balance the pull to the South. Physical communication and commuting is as important as virtual. Even today. That is of course your own personal opinion. In reality as previous posters have stated, HS2 is needed to free up the existing track for freight. It isn't needed as much as the East-West Northern connection which has been a huge gap for decades. No part needs to be high speed at all. The time benefit relative to the cost of up-specing the trains and track is negligible. Your own opinion again. I have no doubt if you had been around in the day, you would have argued in keeping horse and carts instead of the new fangled not needed steam engine.! Nope. I have no problem with new technology. I agree that a North-South capacity increase is needed. A functioning Northern East-West connection has been needed and desired for far longer. Not just my opinion. Can you explain what is so important about reducing the journey time between London and Birmingham by half an hour compared to just increasing capacity at current speeds? I've never seen any explanation." What's with the obsession with time? I would have thought getting freight off the roads for a cleaner greener country would be right up your street. | |||
"So fifty years after France opened their “first”high speed train line we are still struggling to open our first domestic line. Makes you proud how well this country has been run over the last fifty years. All that forward investing in our infrastructure is finally paying dividends!! Oh wait !! A potentially world beating and potentially rich country teeming with hard working people has been abused and stripped of its wealth by appalling governments. Self self self ad infinitum . Still the rich tax avoiders and foreign owners of our infrastructure are getting richer so win win for some. The country doesn't actually need "HS" anything. That is vanity. What was and is needed most urgently by all accounts is the East-West connection across the North at any damned speed. That would actually give half the country a fighting chance of functioning as a joined up region to balance the pull to the South. Physical communication and commuting is as important as virtual. Even today. That is of course your own personal opinion. In reality as previous posters have stated, HS2 is needed to free up the existing track for freight. It isn't needed as much as the East-West Northern connection which has been a huge gap for decades. No part needs to be high speed at all. The time benefit relative to the cost of up-specing the trains and track is negligible. Your own opinion again. I have no doubt if you had been around in the day, you would have argued in keeping horse and carts instead of the new fangled not needed steam engine.! Nope. I have no problem with new technology. I agree that a North-South capacity increase is needed. A functioning Northern East-West connection has been needed and desired for far longer. Not just my opinion. Can you explain what is so important about reducing the journey time between London and Birmingham by half an hour compared to just increasing capacity at current speeds? I've never seen any explanation. What's with the obsession with time? I would have thought getting freight off the roads for a cleaner greener country would be right up your street." But lots of freight are pulled by diesels anyway. | |||
"So fifty years after France opened their “first”high speed train line we are still struggling to open our first domestic line. Makes you proud how well this country has been run over the last fifty years. All that forward investing in our infrastructure is finally paying dividends!! Oh wait !! A potentially world beating and potentially rich country teeming with hard working people has been abused and stripped of its wealth by appalling governments. Self self self ad infinitum . Still the rich tax avoiders and foreign owners of our infrastructure are getting richer so win win for some. The country doesn't actually need "HS" anything. That is vanity. What was and is needed most urgently by all accounts is the East-West connection across the North at any damned speed. That would actually give half the country a fighting chance of functioning as a joined up region to balance the pull to the South. Physical communication and commuting is as important as virtual. Even today. That is of course your own personal opinion. In reality as previous posters have stated, HS2 is needed to free up the existing track for freight. It isn't needed as much as the East-West Northern connection which has been a huge gap for decades. No part needs to be high speed at all. The time benefit relative to the cost of up-specing the trains and track is negligible. Your own opinion again. I have no doubt if you had been around in the day, you would have argued in keeping horse and carts instead of the new fangled not needed steam engine.! Nope. I have no problem with new technology. I agree that a North-South capacity increase is needed. A functioning Northern East-West connection has been needed and desired for far longer. Not just my opinion. Can you explain what is so important about reducing the journey time between London and Birmingham by half an hour compared to just increasing capacity at current speeds? I've never seen any explanation. What's with the obsession with time? I would have thought getting freight off the roads for a cleaner greener country would be right up your street." When I started off by writing 'The country doesn't actually need "HS" anything.' what did you think I meant by "HS" and what have I written subsequently? I said that the additional capacity is needed, just not as much as the Northern connectivity which could be prioritised. That doesn't mean that the Birmingham expansion should never happen. | |||
"So fifty years after France opened their “first”high speed train line we are still struggling to open our first domestic line. Makes you proud how well this country has been run over the last fifty years. All that forward investing in our infrastructure is finally paying dividends!! Oh wait !! A potentially world beating and potentially rich country teeming with hard working people has been abused and stripped of its wealth by appalling governments. Self self self ad infinitum . Still the rich tax avoiders and foreign owners of our infrastructure are getting richer so win win for some. The country doesn't actually need "HS" anything. That is vanity. What was and is needed most urgently by all accounts is the East-West connection across the North at any damned speed. That would actually give half the country a fighting chance of functioning as a joined up region to balance the pull to the South. Physical communication and commuting is as important as virtual. Even today. That is of course your own personal opinion. In reality as previous posters have stated, HS2 is needed to free up the existing track for freight. It isn't needed as much as the East-West Northern connection which has been a huge gap for decades. No part needs to be high speed at all. The time benefit relative to the cost of up-specing the trains and track is negligible. Your own opinion again. I have no doubt if you had been around in the day, you would have argued in keeping horse and carts instead of the new fangled not needed steam engine.! Nope. I have no problem with new technology. I agree that a North-South capacity increase is needed. A functioning Northern East-West connection has been needed and desired for far longer. Not just my opinion. Can you explain what is so important about reducing the journey time between London and Birmingham by half an hour compared to just increasing capacity at current speeds? I've never seen any explanation. What's with the obsession with time? I would have thought getting freight off the roads for a cleaner greener country would be right up your street." You are making my own point. What is the obsession with time on this route that justifies spending so much more money on it to make it "high speed" rather than regular speed? | |||
"So fifty years after France opened their “first”high speed train line we are still struggling to open our first domestic line. Makes you proud how well this country has been run over the last fifty years. All that forward investing in our infrastructure is finally paying dividends!! Oh wait !! A potentially world beating and potentially rich country teeming with hard working people has been abused and stripped of its wealth by appalling governments. Self self self ad infinitum . Still the rich tax avoiders and foreign owners of our infrastructure are getting richer so win win for some. The country doesn't actually need "HS" anything. That is vanity. What was and is needed most urgently by all accounts is the East-West connection across the North at any damned speed. That would actually give half the country a fighting chance of functioning as a joined up region to balance the pull to the South. Physical communication and commuting is as important as virtual. Even today. That is of course your own personal opinion. In reality as previous posters have stated, HS2 is needed to free up the existing track for freight. It isn't needed as much as the East-West Northern connection which has been a huge gap for decades. No part needs to be high speed at all. The time benefit relative to the cost of up-specing the trains and track is negligible. Your own opinion again. I have no doubt if you had been around in the day, you would have argued in keeping horse and carts instead of the new fangled not needed steam engine.! Nope. I have no problem with new technology. I agree that a North-South capacity increase is needed. A functioning Northern East-West connection has been needed and desired for far longer. Not just my opinion. Can you explain what is so important about reducing the journey time between London and Birmingham by half an hour compared to just increasing capacity at current speeds? I've never seen any explanation. What's with the obsession with time? I would have thought getting freight off the roads for a cleaner greener country would be right up your street. But lots of freight are pulled by diesels anyway. " 1 maybe 2 diesel locomotives pulling 100 containers is surely better than 100 diesel HGV's moving 1 container each.! | |||
"So fifty years after France opened their “first”high speed train line we are still struggling to open our first domestic line. Makes you proud how well this country has been run over the last fifty years. All that forward investing in our infrastructure is finally paying dividends!! Oh wait !! A potentially world beating and potentially rich country teeming with hard working people has been abused and stripped of its wealth by appalling governments. Self self self ad infinitum . Still the rich tax avoiders and foreign owners of our infrastructure are getting richer so win win for some. The country doesn't actually need "HS" anything. That is vanity. What was and is needed most urgently by all accounts is the East-West connection across the North at any damned speed. That would actually give half the country a fighting chance of functioning as a joined up region to balance the pull to the South. Physical communication and commuting is as important as virtual. Even today. That is of course your own personal opinion. In reality as previous posters have stated, HS2 is needed to free up the existing track for freight. It isn't needed as much as the East-West Northern connection which has been a huge gap for decades. No part needs to be high speed at all. The time benefit relative to the cost of up-specing the trains and track is negligible. Your own opinion again. I have no doubt if you had been around in the day, you would have argued in keeping horse and carts instead of the new fangled not needed steam engine.! Nope. I have no problem with new technology. I agree that a North-South capacity increase is needed. A functioning Northern East-West connection has been needed and desired for far longer. Not just my opinion. Can you explain what is so important about reducing the journey time between London and Birmingham by half an hour compared to just increasing capacity at current speeds? I've never seen any explanation. What's with the obsession with time? I would have thought getting freight off the roads for a cleaner greener country would be right up your street. But lots of freight are pulled by diesels anyway. 1 maybe 2 diesel locomotives pulling 100 containers is surely better than 100 diesel HGV's moving 1 container each.!" I suspect yes, but not clear by how much. Potential shift to hydrogen rail would be a big step, but could do the same for HGVs. Now, tell me about my love of the horse and cart again  | |||
"So fifty years after France opened their “first”high speed train line we are still struggling to open our first domestic line. Makes you proud how well this country has been run over the last fifty years. All that forward investing in our infrastructure is finally paying dividends!! Oh wait !! A potentially world beating and potentially rich country teeming with hard working people has been abused and stripped of its wealth by appalling governments. Self self self ad infinitum . Still the rich tax avoiders and foreign owners of our infrastructure are getting richer so win win for some. The country doesn't actually need "HS" anything. That is vanity. What was and is needed most urgently by all accounts is the East-West connection across the North at any damned speed. That would actually give half the country a fighting chance of functioning as a joined up region to balance the pull to the South. Physical communication and commuting is as important as virtual. Even today. That is of course your own personal opinion. In reality as previous posters have stated, HS2 is needed to free up the existing track for freight. It isn't needed as much as the East-West Northern connection which has been a huge gap for decades. No part needs to be high speed at all. The time benefit relative to the cost of up-specing the trains and track is negligible. Your own opinion again. I have no doubt if you had been around in the day, you would have argued in keeping horse and carts instead of the new fangled not needed steam engine.! Nope. I have no problem with new technology. I agree that a North-South capacity increase is needed. A functioning Northern East-West connection has been needed and desired for far longer. Not just my opinion. Can you explain what is so important about reducing the journey time between London and Birmingham by half an hour compared to just increasing capacity at current speeds? I've never seen any explanation. What's with the obsession with time? I would have thought getting freight off the roads for a cleaner greener country would be right up your street. You are making my own point. What is the obsession with time on this route that justifies spending so much more money on it to make it "high speed" rather than regular speed?" So if you were to go and buy something new you would be happy it was designed to 1930's spec rather than current up to date spec and technology? By your logic they could of just used steam engines on the Elizabeth Line. Why waste all that extra money on modern trains.! | |||
"... all these billions, for what, to save an approximate fifteen minutes from our nearest main train station in Crewe? No, the purpose of HS2 is to get all the passenger trains off the existing lines, which can then be run much more efficiently to carry freight. Freight movement by train is increasing rapidly, but at the moment freight has to give way to the express passenger trains. Get rid of them, and we can run many more freight trains, taking more freight off the roads." Yes it would take some passenger traffic off the WCML, that isn't the argument here, it's about the ludicrous cost of it all, the longer it is put back, the higher the construction costs will go up, no different to any other major project, they never go down? The vast majority of freight runs between 20.00 and 06.00 anyway give or take an hour, so the impact on daytime passenger services at present is minimal? And do you really think that the cost of travelling on HS2 will be affordable for the ordinary punters on the street? It will generally be aimed at the higher end of travel, company account travel, business executives, etc, and will be priced accordingly, similar to business oriented airlines like Eastern Airways for example? The head ponchos and the government departments in charge of HS2 will want to recoup the massive cost of this project, and that will be mostly through the cost of travelling on it? I can see your point to a degree with regards to getting more cargo off the roads, but apart from the larger road/rail hubs like Daventry, Felixstowe, Grangemouth and a few others, the infrastructure isn't there to handle more freight, and at present, most freight on the rails is diesel hauled anyway, so a long way to go yet on that score? You make a valid point, but the cost of this project is obscene, and the huge sums of money could be better spent elsewhere? | |||
"So fifty years after France opened their “first”high speed train line we are still struggling to open our first domestic line. Makes you proud how well this country has been run over the last fifty years. All that forward investing in our infrastructure is finally paying dividends!! Oh wait !! A potentially world beating and potentially rich country teeming with hard working people has been abused and stripped of its wealth by appalling governments. Self self self ad infinitum . Still the rich tax avoiders and foreign owners of our infrastructure are getting richer so win win for some. The country doesn't actually need "HS" anything. That is vanity. What was and is needed most urgently by all accounts is the East-West connection across the North at any damned speed. That would actually give half the country a fighting chance of functioning as a joined up region to balance the pull to the South. Physical communication and commuting is as important as virtual. Even today. That is of course your own personal opinion. In reality as previous posters have stated, HS2 is needed to free up the existing track for freight. It isn't needed as much as the East-West Northern connection which has been a huge gap for decades. No part needs to be high speed at all. The time benefit relative to the cost of up-specing the trains and track is negligible. Your own opinion again. I have no doubt if you had been around in the day, you would have argued in keeping horse and carts instead of the new fangled not needed steam engine.! Nope. I have no problem with new technology. I agree that a North-South capacity increase is needed. A functioning Northern East-West connection has been needed and desired for far longer. Not just my opinion. Can you explain what is so important about reducing the journey time between London and Birmingham by half an hour compared to just increasing capacity at current speeds? I've never seen any explanation. What's with the obsession with time? I would have thought getting freight off the roads for a cleaner greener country would be right up your street. You are making my own point. What is the obsession with time on this route that justifies spending so much more money on it to make it "high speed" rather than regular speed? So if you were to go and buy something new you would be happy it was designed to 1930's spec rather than current up to date spec and technology? By your logic they could of just used steam engines on the Elizabeth Line. Why waste all that extra money on modern trains.!" This isn't the difference between the most up-to-date version of something and old technology. This is the difference between buying a '23 ref BMW and a Hyundai that carry the same number of people and luggage but one has a higher maximum speed. The technology is still latest generation, they just do different slightly things at very different price points. You are having a different conversation to me. What is the benefit to capacity of the train being 30 minutes faster and costing several hundreds of millions more in track and vehicle with higher ticket prices? | |||
"So fifty years after France opened their “first”high speed train line we are still struggling to open our first domestic line. Makes you proud how well this country has been run over the last fifty years. All that forward investing in our infrastructure is finally paying dividends!! Oh wait !! A potentially world beating and potentially rich country teeming with hard working people has been abused and stripped of its wealth by appalling governments. Self self self ad infinitum . Still the rich tax avoiders and foreign owners of our infrastructure are getting richer so win win for some. The country doesn't actually need "HS" anything. That is vanity. What was and is needed most urgently by all accounts is the East-West connection across the North at any damned speed. That would actually give half the country a fighting chance of functioning as a joined up region to balance the pull to the South. Physical communication and commuting is as important as virtual. Even today. That is of course your own personal opinion. In reality as previous posters have stated, HS2 is needed to free up the existing track for freight. " I had no idea about it is about helping to free up existing track for more freight trains. It would be a greater benefit than shaving a few minutes of the passengers journey and makes a better case. Still seems crazy money but taking trucks of the road is a benefit. Hopefully with less traffic there will be less or less severe traffic jams which will also help the environment | |||
"If you can't afford it you can't have it. France has the space land the UK dose not have you seen what they have had to do in London to get HS2 in."  and I don't think it's genuinely needed either, especially when east-west travel is reportedly so chaotic and overcrowded
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"So fifty years after France opened their “first”high speed train line we are still struggling to open our first domestic line. Makes you proud how well this country has been run over the last fifty years. All that forward investing in our infrastructure is finally paying dividends!! Oh wait !! A potentially world beating and potentially rich country teeming with hard working people has been abused and stripped of its wealth by appalling governments. Self self self ad infinitum . Still the rich tax avoiders and foreign owners of our infrastructure are getting richer so win win for some. The country doesn't actually need "HS" anything. That is vanity. What was and is needed most urgently by all accounts is the East-West connection across the North at any damned speed. That would actually give half the country a fighting chance of functioning as a joined up region to balance the pull to the South. Physical communication and commuting is as important as virtual. Even today." Most freight trains travel from deep sea container ports such as Southampton and Felixstowe with Thames gateway adding to the pot. North south is the container congestion issue. East west is also well under serviced your right, with large numbers of east west trains having to go south first to then go back north just to get across the country. So saying one is needed but not the other is simply wrong, We need both and should have had both decades ago. The south has had many times more investment than the north over many years and its resulted in a chronic underfunded service in the north not fit for purpose. Government should be building before it’s needed not after, | |||
"I'm interested to know how Fibre Broadband is going to move the increase in freight around the country?" Fibre broadband would reduce the demand for travel thus freeing up space on the existing lines. HS2 has very few stations so won't relieve the overcrowded local commuter trains. It is not necessary for information workers to physically commute to an office very often. Personally I never go into the office unless the MD calls me and instructs me to. Even then I moan about it and try and keep it to once or twice a year. | |||
