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Left wing right wing
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By (user no longer on site) OP
over a year ago
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"What's the difference?
Neymar and Mohamed Salah."
Don't know them. To be honest I don't know the difference between left and right wing, whatever it means. |
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By (user no longer on site) OP
over a year ago
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"You see people on here who don't want to meet people who support a different party to them. Are they being serious ? 
I'll take your word for that, never come across that before"
I've seen it on profiles |
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By (user no longer on site) 25 weeks ago
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Left wing governments do not benefit the majority, just look at how Stalin, Maduro, Mugabe and any other lunatic left wing leader run their countries. Thank god Jeremy Corbyn never became Prime Minister of the U.K |
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"Left wing governments do not benefit the majority, just look at how Stalin, Maduro, Mugabe and any other lunatic left wing leader run their countries. Thank god Jeremy Corbyn never became Prime Minister of the U.K"
We have all the information in the world at our fingertips, and this old nonsense still gets trotted out. |
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Left wing believe they know how to spend your money better than you do.
Right wing should believe in minimal intervention, and the rights of the individual. Not sure this applies in UK politics at the moment. |
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Right wing - It's my responsibility to look after myself and my family. They will always come first. If I want to help others, I will do it myself or through charities because it gives me personal fulfilment. I am not going to force others to do it on my behalf.
Left wing - Why doesn't the government solve all the problems I am seeing? Why don't we take away money from those who earn more to solve the problems? Why are you all being so selfish? Look how virtuos I am.
Of course, it's a bit too complex in practice when you start dividing them further on social issues. Someone can be socially liberal but economically right wing or socially authoritarian and economically right wing. Same with authoritarian and liberal left wing.
It gets further complicated with religion. Most left wing morals are based on Christianity and yet they hate each other. |
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By (user no longer on site) 25 weeks ago
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"Left wing governments do not benefit the majority, just look at how Stalin, Maduro, Mugabe and any other lunatic left wing leader run their countries. Thank god Jeremy Corbyn never became Prime Minister of the U.K
We have all the information in the world at our fingertips, and this old nonsense still gets trotted out."
but what im saying isnt my opinion its fact |
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"You see people on here who don't want to meet people who support a different party to them. Are they being serious ? "
that was the same over brexit but we all know when it comes to sex who gives a fuck lol |
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It does not matter what you identify as left, Right or Centre.
The truth is the ultra rich is it the 1% who own 90% of the wealth are taking our money and hiding it in offshore accounts, the super rich are seeing record profits & the squeez on the rest of us is getting tighter and tighter.
Now we can riot blaming people coming in on boats or fall out over a cripple getting benefits & point the finger at someone doing a job on the side for £40 nothing will change
The billionaires will continue to hide their fortune & watch it grow whilst building new revenue streams.
People will die in wars or in the channel, poverty & homelessness will grow & we will be debating the same old shit day after day until we die probably on a hospital waiting list.
Until we cap personal wealth & take the obscene amounts of money and put it into good use - health, education - housing etc
We are always going to in this same or worsening position.
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Could always ask the 20 something year old lad that was stood at the front of one the protests with a newspaper. The title in red with a hammer and sickle, I bet his mum and dad and grandparents are really proud of him. If he likes the idea, then I'm sure Putin would welcome him with open arms and send him the front. Seems they don't teach much in schools these days. |
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By *irldnCouple 25 weeks ago
Brighton |
"Could always ask the 20 something year old lad that was stood at the front of one the protests with a newspaper. The title in red with a hammer and sickle, I bet his mum and dad and grandparents are really proud of him. If he likes the idea, then I'm sure Putin would welcome him with open arms and send him the front. Seems they don't teach much in schools these days."
Hammer and Sickle. As in the USSR. ie the Communist state that broke apart. What’s that got to do with Russia? You really think Russia is a left wing state? What is it they should be teaching? |
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"What's the difference?"
The far left and far right are one and the same, both persecute and blame minorities they don't like for the world's ills, promote tribalism and division and are not interested in any form of compromise. The are not opposites, more mirror images. |
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"What's the difference?
The far left and far right are one and the same, both persecute and blame minorities they don't like for the world's ills, promote tribalism and division and are not interested in any form of compromise. The are not opposites, more mirror images."
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Of course, the core of right wing and left wing values, especially when it comes to race, is exactly the same:
https://youtu.be/Ev373c7wSRg?si=7Uh4Kf5Mv8A_37Ki
https://youtu.be/8j7VPct-FWw?si=m_QRODsgEbpiUe57
https://youtu.be/Eq4Jy8zFyOY?si=eZXp_47pfDPBv7yN
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"You can stand on the left side of the pavement or the right side of the pavement either way you are stood on the same pavement."
But on one side you are closer to getting knocked down so it's more dangerous |
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"You can stand on the left side of the pavement or the right side of the pavement either way you are stood on the same pavement.
But on one side you are closer to getting knocked down so it's more dangerous"
If everyone stands in the middle of the pavement, then there's no space to go anywhere, and we're stuck. |
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"What's the difference?
The far left and far right are one and the same, both persecute and blame minorities they don't like for the world's ills, promote tribalism and division and are not interested in any form of compromise. The are not opposites, more mirror images."
Horseshoe theory is real |
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"What's the difference?
The far left and far right are one and the same, both persecute and blame minorities they don't like for the world's ills, promote tribalism and division and are not interested in any form of compromise. The are not opposites, more mirror images.
Horseshoe theory is real"
You can't say that. I got battered in here for saying it not so long ago  |
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"What's the difference?
The far left and far right are one and the same, both persecute and blame minorities they don't like for the world's ills, promote tribalism and division and are not interested in any form of compromise. The are not opposites, more mirror images.
Horseshoe theory is real
You can't say that. I got battered in here for saying it not so long ago "
I guess by the ones who believe that USSR under Stalin and China under Mao didn't follow "real socialism" |
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"What's the difference?
The far left and far right are one and the same, both persecute and blame minorities they don't like for the world's ills, promote tribalism and division and are not interested in any form of compromise. The are not opposites, more mirror images.
Horseshoe theory is real
You can't say that. I got battered in here for saying it not so long ago
I guess by the ones who believe that USSR under Stalin and China under Mao didn't follow "real socialism""
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By *irldnCouple 24 weeks ago
Brighton |
"What's the difference?
The far left and far right are one and the same, both persecute and blame minorities they don't like for the world's ills, promote tribalism and division and are not interested in any form of compromise. The are not opposites, more mirror images.
Horseshoe theory is real
You can't say that. I got battered in here for saying it not so long ago "
Did you? Must have missed that. I recall a good discussion but of course it could have been another thread |
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By *irldnCouple 24 weeks ago
Brighton |
"What's the difference?
The far left and far right are one and the same, both persecute and blame minorities they don't like for the world's ills, promote tribalism and division and are not interested in any form of compromise. The are not opposites, more mirror images.
Horseshoe theory is real
You can't say that. I got battered in here for saying it not so long ago
I guess by the ones who believe that USSR under Stalin and China under Mao didn't follow "real socialism""
Oh dear, if only the world was simple without mutable labels and shifting definitions that evolve over time or had singular positions on a political spectrum rather than a broad range really requiring sub-definitions. Pesky thing language |
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"What's the difference?
The far left and far right are one and the same, both persecute and blame minorities they don't like for the world's ills, promote tribalism and division and are not interested in any form of compromise. The are not opposites, more mirror images.
Horseshoe theory is real
You can't say that. I got battered in here for saying it not so long ago
I guess by the ones who believe that USSR under Stalin and China under Mao didn't follow "real socialism"
Oh dear, if only the world was simple without mutable labels and shifting definitions that evolve over time or had singular positions on a political spectrum rather than a broad range really requiring sub-definitions. Pesky thing language "
"Far left" and "Far right" are reasonably well defined, aren't they? |
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Got to say this is one of the more tedious posts, unless of course the OP is attempting to galvanise one more level of divisional debate. Nonetheless what appears slightly more interesting is that most commentators appear to describe the behaviour's, as opposed to the political values, of each end of the continuum and therefore seek to conclude the difference between is minimal. In reality the difference in beliefs and values is vast. |
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By *irldnCouple 24 weeks ago
Brighton |
"What's the difference?
The far left and far right are one and the same, both persecute and blame minorities they don't like for the world's ills, promote tribalism and division and are not interested in any form of compromise. The are not opposites, more mirror images.
Horseshoe theory is real
You can't say that. I got battered in here for saying it not so long ago
I guess by the ones who believe that USSR under Stalin and China under Mao didn't follow "real socialism"
Oh dear, if only the world was simple without mutable labels and shifting definitions that evolve over time or had singular positions on a political spectrum rather than a broad range really requiring sub-definitions. Pesky thing language
"Far left" and "Far right" are reasonably well defined, aren't they?"
You were talking about “socialism” |
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By (user no longer on site) 24 weeks ago
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Thing is about people with left wing ideals is they quick to call other people racists, sexist etc when someone doesn't agree with their views but don't realise they're racist and sexist themselves |
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"Thing is about people with left wing ideals is they quick to call other people racists, sexist etc when someone doesn't agree with their views but don't realise they're racist and sexist themselves "
This sounds solid. Do you have any real life examples of this? |
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"Thing is about people with left wing ideals is they quick to call other people racists, sexist etc when someone doesn't agree with their views but don't realise they're racist and sexist themselves "
coildnt agree more fab is a great example of this
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"Thing is about people with left wing ideals is they quick to call other people racists, sexist etc when someone doesn't agree with their views but don't realise they're racist and sexist themselves coildnt agree more fab is a great example of this "
Ace. Two of you. You should have some solid real life examples of this. |
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"Thing is about people with left wing ideals is they quick to call other people racists, sexist etc when someone doesn't agree with their views but don't realise they're racist and sexist themselves coildnt agree more fab is a great example of this
Ace. Two of you. You should have some solid real life examples of this."
Recently, there was a Glaswegian fellow who posted quite strongly about racism (page and politics indicated left leaning, at the very least).
On his page, he had a video of a non-white person with a clear non-white, non-British accent. In this video, she clearly said, in a hurt/distressed tone, "no video!".
When called out on this, specifically around racism/power imbalance, there was no response. The video (reported to admin) was removed, as was the thread where he was called out on it.
The question asked was, would he have done the same to a white British woman? Does he accept that taking and then posting that video is a red flag for racism/sexism? It's clearly exploiting a power imbalance, at the very least. |
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By (user no longer on site) 24 weeks ago
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"Thing is about people with left wing ideals is they quick to call other people racists, sexist etc when someone doesn't agree with their views but don't realise they're racist and sexist themselves coildnt agree more fab is a great example of this
Ace. Two of you. You should have some solid real life examples of this."
ok do you agree that Labour are left wing? |
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"Thing is about people with left wing ideals is they quick to call other people racists, sexist etc when someone doesn't agree with their views but don't realise they're racist and sexist themselves coildnt agree more fab is a great example of this
Ace. Two of you. You should have some solid real life examples of this.
Recently, there was a Glaswegian fellow who posted quite strongly about racism (page and politics indicated left leaning, at the very least).
On his page, he had a video of a non-white person with a clear non-white, non-British accent. In this video, she clearly said, in a hurt/distressed tone, "no video!".
When called out on this, specifically around racism/power imbalance, there was no response. The video (reported to admin) was removed, as was the thread where he was called out on it.
The question asked was, would he have done the same to a white British woman? Does he accept that taking and then posting that video is a red flag for racism/sexism? It's clearly exploiting a power imbalance, at the very least."
I appreciate that it's difficult to articulate a detailed point in a few lines on a forum. But I'm not sure I understand, what's the implication of a video with a woman saying "no video"? |
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"Thing is about people with left wing ideals is they quick to call other people racists, sexist etc when someone doesn't agree with their views but don't realise they're racist and sexist themselves coildnt agree more fab is a great example of this
Ace. Two of you. You should have some solid real life examples of this. ok do you agree that Labour are left wing?"
No sure where you're going with this but okay. Labour are centre or centre left. |
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By (user no longer on site) 24 weeks ago
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"Thing is about people with left wing ideals is they quick to call other people racists, sexist etc when someone doesn't agree with their views but don't realise they're racist and sexist themselves coildnt agree more fab is a great example of this
Ace. Two of you. You should have some solid real life examples of this. ok do you agree that Labour are left wing?
No sure where you're going with this but okay. Labour are centre or centre left."
No they left wing but anyways is it fair to say that the BNP who were investigated by the EHRC to be racist can be applied to Labour since they were the only 2 political parties to be investigated by the EHRC? |
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By (user no longer on site) 24 weeks ago
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Also Labour never been lead by a person of colour or by a woman. Most other parties have by either of the 2. Nobody questions why Labour only ever led by a white man? |
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"Thing is about people with left wing ideals is they quick to call other people racists, sexist etc when someone doesn't agree with their views but don't realise they're racist and sexist themselves coildnt agree more fab is a great example of this
Ace. Two of you. You should have some solid real life examples of this. ok do you agree that Labour are left wing?
No sure where you're going with this but okay. Labour are centre or centre left. No they left wing but anyways is it fair to say that the BNP who were investigated by the EHRC to be racist can be applied to Labour since they were the only 2 political parties to be investigated by the EHRC?"
Interesting.
Anyway, to get back on track you were about to give me an example of someone who is:
1. A person "with left wing ideals"
2. "quick to call other people racists, sexist etc when someone doesn't agree with their views"
3. "but don't realise they're racist and sexist".
You seem extremely sure. So must be easy to roll out a solid example. |
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By (user no longer on site) 24 weeks ago
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"Thing is about people with left wing ideals is they quick to call other people racists, sexist etc when someone doesn't agree with their views but don't realise they're racist and sexist themselves coildnt agree more fab is a great example of this
Ace. Two of you. You should have some solid real life examples of this. ok do you agree that Labour are left wing?
No sure where you're going with this but okay. Labour are centre or centre left. No they left wing but anyways is it fair to say that the BNP who were investigated by the EHRC to be racist can be applied to Labour since they were the only 2 political parties to be investigated by the EHRC?
Interesting.
Anyway, to get back on track you were about to give me an example of someone who is:
1. A person "with left wing ideals"
2. "quick to call other people racists, sexist etc when someone doesn't agree with their views"
3. "but don't realise they're racist and sexist".
You seem extremely sure. So must be easy to roll out a solid example."
oh let me think, wasnt Diane Abbott suspended from the Labour party for making racist and antisemitic comments? And she's a hardcore lefty |
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"Thing is about people with left wing ideals is they quick to call other people racists, sexist etc when someone doesn't agree with their views but don't realise they're racist and sexist themselves coildnt agree more fab is a great example of this
Ace. Two of you. You should have some solid real life examples of this. ok do you agree that Labour are left wing?"
I don't, Corbyn is left wing as was Michael Foot..
Blair as history shows took them to the centre with a bit of left wing policies and if you think Starmer is left wing you really are just regurgitating reform propaganda.. |
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By (user no longer on site) 24 weeks ago
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"Thing is about people with left wing ideals is they quick to call other people racists, sexist etc when someone doesn't agree with their views but don't realise they're racist and sexist themselves coildnt agree more fab is a great example of this
Ace. Two of you. You should have some solid real life examples of this. ok do you agree that Labour are left wing?
I don't, Corbyn is left wing as was Michael Foot..
Blair as history shows took them to the centre with a bit of left wing policies and if you think Starmer is left wing you really are just regurgitating reform propaganda.."
No I'm not regurgitating Reform propaganda and Keir Starmer as much you don't want to admit it is Left wing, probably not as hardcore like Jeremy Corbyn but shares most of the idealology |
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"Thing is about people with left wing ideals is they quick to call other people racists, sexist etc when someone doesn't agree with their views but don't realise they're racist and sexist themselves coildnt agree more fab is a great example of this
Ace. Two of you. You should have some solid real life examples of this. ok do you agree that Labour are left wing?
No sure where you're going with this but okay. Labour are centre or centre left. No they left wing but anyways is it fair to say that the BNP who were investigated by the EHRC to be racist can be applied to Labour since they were the only 2 political parties to be investigated by the EHRC?
Interesting.
Anyway, to get back on track you were about to give me an example of someone who is:
1. A person "with left wing ideals"
2. "quick to call other people racists, sexist etc when someone doesn't agree with their views"
3. "but don't realise they're racist and sexist".
You seem extremely sure. So must be easy to roll out a solid example. oh let me think, wasnt Diane Abbott suspended from the Labour party for making racist and antisemitic comments? And she's a hardcore lefty"
Okay so you have an example. What exactly was she suspended for, and how does she fit into all three of your categories? |
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By (user no longer on site) 24 weeks ago
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"Thing is about people with left wing ideals is they quick to call other people racists, sexist etc when someone doesn't agree with their views but don't realise they're racist and sexist themselves coildnt agree more fab is a great example of this
Ace. Two of you. You should have some solid real life examples of this. ok do you agree that Labour are left wing?
No sure where you're going with this but okay. Labour are centre or centre left. No they left wing but anyways is it fair to say that the BNP who were investigated by the EHRC to be racist can be applied to Labour since they were the only 2 political parties to be investigated by the EHRC?
Interesting.
Anyway, to get back on track you were about to give me an example of someone who is:
1. A person "with left wing ideals"
2. "quick to call other people racists, sexist etc when someone doesn't agree with their views"
3. "but don't realise they're racist and sexist".
You seem extremely sure. So must be easy to roll out a solid example. oh let me think, wasnt Diane Abbott suspended from the Labour party for making racist and antisemitic comments? And she's a hardcore lefty
Okay so you have an example. What exactly was she suspended for, and how does she fit into all three of your categories?"
just mentioned it please read |
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"Thing is about people with left wing ideals is they quick to call other people racists, sexist etc when someone doesn't agree with their views but don't realise they're racist and sexist themselves coildnt agree more fab is a great example of this
Ace. Two of you. You should have some solid real life examples of this. ok do you agree that Labour are left wing?
No sure where you're going with this but okay. Labour are centre or centre left. No they left wing but anyways is it fair to say that the BNP who were investigated by the EHRC to be racist can be applied to Labour since they were the only 2 political parties to be investigated by the EHRC?
Interesting.
Anyway, to get back on track you were about to give me an example of someone who is:
1. A person "with left wing ideals"
2. "quick to call other people racists, sexist etc when someone doesn't agree with their views"
3. "but don't realise they're racist and sexist".
You seem extremely sure. So must be easy to roll out a solid example. oh let me think, wasnt Diane Abbott suspended from the Labour party for making racist and antisemitic comments? And she's a hardcore lefty
Okay so you have an example. What exactly was she suspended for, and how does she fit into all three of your categories? just mentioned it please read"
But you haven't said anything. Maybe you can explain how Diane Abbott is:
1. A person "with left wing ideals"
2. "quick to call other people racists, sexist etc when someone doesn't agree with their views"
3. "but don't realise they're racist and sexist".
And bonus point for explaining why this is typical of "people with left wing ideals". |
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"Isn't the whole anti-semitism fiasco in Labour a clear example of left wing racism? My point exactly but left wingers will not admit that
Maybe because some of them read the Forde report?"
Did the report say that there wasn't any anti-Semitism in Labour? |
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"Thing is about people with left wing ideals is they quick to call other people racists, sexist etc when someone doesn't agree with their views but don't realise they're racist and sexist themselves coildnt agree more fab is a great example of this
Ace. Two of you. You should have some solid real life examples of this.
Recently, there was a Glaswegian fellow who posted quite strongly about racism (page and politics indicated left leaning, at the very least).
On his page, he had a video of a non-white person with a clear non-white, non-British accent. In this video, she clearly said, in a hurt/distressed tone, "no video!".
When called out on this, specifically around racism/power imbalance, there was no response. The video (reported to admin) was removed, as was the thread where he was called out on it.
The question asked was, would he have done the same to a white British woman? Does he accept that taking and then posting that video is a red flag for racism/sexism? It's clearly exploiting a power imbalance, at the very least.
I appreciate that it's difficult to articulate a detailed point in a few lines on a forum. But I'm not sure I understand, what's the implication of a video with a woman saying "no video"?"
South East Asian woman having sex with the fellow in question (presumably). She looks around and sees him filming. She says "No video!". It's clear that he videoed without consent. And uploaded without consent.
Disgusting.
Admin clearly took action.
Perhaps he's just an arsehole who isn't misogynistic, perhaps he would have done that to a British person, too. It certainly smelled like a power imbalance, whether due to race, gender, both or other. |
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"Thing is about people with left wing ideals is they quick to call other people racists, sexist etc when someone doesn't agree with their views but don't realise they're racist and sexist themselves coildnt agree more fab is a great example of this
Ace. Two of you. You should have some solid real life examples of this. ok do you agree that Labour are left wing?
No sure where you're going with this but okay. Labour are centre or centre left. No they left wing but anyways is it fair to say that the BNP who were investigated by the EHRC to be racist can be applied to Labour since they were the only 2 political parties to be investigated by the EHRC?
Interesting.
Anyway, to get back on track you were about to give me an example of someone who is:
1. A person "with left wing ideals"
2. "quick to call other people racists, sexist etc when someone doesn't agree with their views"
3. "but don't realise they're racist and sexist".
You seem extremely sure. So must be easy to roll out a solid example. oh let me think, wasnt Diane Abbott suspended from the Labour party for making racist and antisemitic comments? And she's a hardcore lefty
Okay so you have an example. What exactly was she suspended for, and how does she fit into all three of your categories? just mentioned it please read
But you haven't said anything. Maybe you can explain how Diane Abbott is:
1. A person "with left wing ideals"
2. "quick to call other people racists, sexist etc when someone doesn't agree with their views"
3. "but don't realise they're racist and sexist".
And bonus point for explaining why this is typical of "people with left wing ideals"."
1. https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/articles/c800pzlz9k8o
2. https://www.thetimes.com/article/diane-abbott-accused-of-stoking-racial-tension-over-shooting-of-blm-activist-sasha-johnson-gc8hmfrfq
3.
https://news.sky.com/story/diane-abbott-accused-of-hateful-antisemitism-after-suggesting-jews-do-not-face-racism-12864141
https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2012/jan/05/diane-abbott-accused-racism-twitter
Also, her comments on Finnish nurses. |
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"Thing is about people with left wing ideals is they quick to call other people racists, sexist etc when someone doesn't agree with their views but don't realise they're racist and sexist themselves coildnt agree more fab is a great example of this
Ace. Two of you. You should have some solid real life examples of this.
Recently, there was a Glaswegian fellow who posted quite strongly about racism (page and politics indicated left leaning, at the very least).
On his page, he had a video of a non-white person with a clear non-white, non-British accent. In this video, she clearly said, in a hurt/distressed tone, "no video!".
When called out on this, specifically around racism/power imbalance, there was no response. The video (reported to admin) was removed, as was the thread where he was called out on it.
The question asked was, would he have done the same to a white British woman? Does he accept that taking and then posting that video is a red flag for racism/sexism? It's clearly exploiting a power imbalance, at the very least.
I appreciate that it's difficult to articulate a detailed point in a few lines on a forum. But I'm not sure I understand, what's the implication of a video with a woman saying "no video"?
South East Asian woman having sex with the fellow in question (presumably). She looks around and sees him filming. She says "No video!". It's clear that he videoed without consent. And uploaded without consent.
Disgusting.
Admin clearly took action.
Perhaps he's just an arsehole who isn't misogynistic, perhaps he would have done that to a British person, too. It certainly smelled like a power imbalance, whether due to race, gender, both or other."
That's clearly awful. Not sure how it's demonstrating the point the other chap was making though. This bloke sounds like an arsehole. |
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"Thing is about people with left wing ideals is they quick to call other people racists, sexist etc when someone doesn't agree with their views but don't realise they're racist and sexist themselves coildnt agree more fab is a great example of this
Ace. Two of you. You should have some solid real life examples of this. ok do you agree that Labour are left wing?
I don't, Corbyn is left wing as was Michael Foot..
Blair as history shows took them to the centre with a bit of left wing policies and if you think Starmer is left wing you really are just regurgitating reform propaganda.. No I'm not regurgitating Reform propaganda and Keir Starmer as much you don't want to admit it is Left wing, probably not as hardcore like Jeremy Corbyn but shares most of the idealology"
Compared to Farage he is and some of the right wing of the Tory party but to those on the left he's a centrist with a left leaning.. |
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"Thing is about people with left wing ideals is they quick to call other people racists, sexist etc when someone doesn't agree with their views but don't realise they're racist and sexist themselves coildnt agree more fab is a great example of this
Ace. Two of you. You should have some solid real life examples of this. ok do you agree that Labour are left wing?
I don't, Corbyn is left wing as was Michael Foot..
Blair as history shows took them to the centre with a bit of left wing policies and if you think Starmer is left wing you really are just regurgitating reform propaganda.. No I'm not regurgitating Reform propaganda and Keir Starmer as much you don't want to admit it is Left wing, probably not as hardcore like Jeremy Corbyn but shares most of the idealology
Compared to Farage he is and some of the right wing of the Tory party but to those on the left he's a centrist with a left leaning.."
he’s leaning the far now needs to be careful doesn’t fall over |
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