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Possible deal on northern Ireland protocol
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By *oo hotCouple
over a year ago
North West |
So indications appear to be that there won’t be a deal on the NIP and instead Sunak is looking to change the entire U.K./EU deal in effect to nullify the NIP.
Boris Johnson already fired off warning shots in Sunak’s direction, but really who is going to argue with Sunak now if he can get a sensible deal with the EU that eases trade restrictions and thereby helps us all live somewhat better lives. |
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"So indications appear to be that there won’t be a deal on the NIP and instead Sunak is looking to change the entire U.K./EU deal in effect to nullify the NIP.
Boris Johnson already fired off warning shots in Sunak’s direction, but really who is going to argue with Sunak now if he can get a sensible deal with the EU that eases trade restrictions and thereby helps us all live somewhat better lives. "
Where do these indications come from? I can't find anything at all |
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"So indications appear to be that there won’t be a deal on the NIP and instead Sunak is looking to change the entire U.K./EU deal in effect to nullify the NIP.
Boris Johnson already fired off warning shots in Sunak’s direction, but really who is going to argue with Sunak now if he can get a sensible deal with the EU that eases trade restrictions and thereby helps us all live somewhat better lives.
Where do these indications come from? I can't find anything at all"
BBC, sky news, independent, evening standard, Irish times, telegraph, yahoo news etc.
All seem to be covering this. |
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By *iewMan
over a year ago
Forum Mod Angus & Findhorn |
"So indications appear to be that there won’t be a deal on the NIP and instead Sunak is looking to change the entire U.K./EU deal in effect to nullify the NIP.
Boris Johnson already fired off warning shots in Sunak’s direction, but really who is going to argue with Sunak now if he can get a sensible deal with the EU that eases trade restrictions and thereby helps us all live somewhat better lives. "
I’m surprised Boris can muster enough energy to involve himself in this matter now, no wait he’ll have a £million lecture on the subject coming up  |
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By *eroy1000Man
over a year ago
milton keynes |
"So indications appear to be that there won’t be a deal on the NIP and instead Sunak is looking to change the entire U.K./EU deal in effect to nullify the NIP.
Boris Johnson already fired off warning shots in Sunak’s direction, but really who is going to argue with Sunak now if he can get a sensible deal with the EU that eases trade restrictions and thereby helps us all live somewhat better lives. "
I only quickly looked at it but have not seen anything about changing the entire UK/EU agreement. As far as I see it is still focused on NI. Apparently the NI bill that Boris introduced to parliament has been suspended in its passage while negotiations happen. I think this is the bill giving the UK the ability to unilaterally move away from the NI arrangements. A while back the EU said the NI deal was not going to be changed at all so getting here is progress in itself |
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"So indications appear to be that there won’t be a deal on the NIP and instead Sunak is looking to change the entire U.K./EU deal in effect to nullify the NIP.
Boris Johnson already fired off warning shots in Sunak’s direction, but really who is going to argue with Sunak now if he can get a sensible deal with the EU that eases trade restrictions and thereby helps us all live somewhat better lives.
Where do these indications come from? I can't find anything at all
BBC, sky news, independent, evening standard, Irish times, telegraph, yahoo news etc.
All seem to be covering this."
Do any of them state that Sunak is looking to replace the entire deal instead of just the NIP? |
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"So indications appear to be that there won’t be a deal on the NIP and instead Sunak is looking to change the entire U.K./EU deal in effect to nullify the NIP.
Boris Johnson already fired off warning shots in Sunak’s direction, but really who is going to argue with Sunak now if he can get a sensible deal with the EU that eases trade restrictions and thereby helps us all live somewhat better lives.
Where do these indications come from? I can't find anything at all
BBC, sky news, independent, evening standard, Irish times, telegraph, yahoo news etc.
All seem to be covering this.
Do any of them state that Sunak is looking to replace the entire deal instead of just the NIP?"
I haven't read them all, but the ones I read, didn't. |
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"So indications appear to be that there won’t be a deal on the NIP and instead Sunak is looking to change the entire U.K./EU deal in effect to nullify the NIP.
Boris Johnson already fired off warning shots in Sunak’s direction, but really who is going to argue with Sunak now if he can get a sensible deal with the EU that eases trade restrictions and thereby helps us all live somewhat better lives.
Where do these indications come from? I can't find anything at all
BBC, sky news, independent, evening standard, Irish times, telegraph, yahoo news etc.
All seem to be covering this.
Do any of them state that Sunak is looking to replace the entire deal instead of just the NIP?
I haven't read them all, but the ones I read, didn't. "
Which is what I was asking for... |
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"So indications appear to be that there won’t be a deal on the NIP and instead Sunak is looking to change the entire U.K./EU deal in effect to nullify the NIP.
Boris Johnson already fired off warning shots in Sunak’s direction, but really who is going to argue with Sunak now if he can get a sensible deal with the EU that eases trade restrictions and thereby helps us all live somewhat better lives.
Where do these indications come from? I can't find anything at all
BBC, sky news, independent, evening standard, Irish times, telegraph, yahoo news etc.
All seem to be covering this.
Do any of them state that Sunak is looking to replace the entire deal instead of just the NIP?
I haven't read them all, but the ones I read, didn't.
Which is what I was asking for..."
Ah sorry.
I don't know what Johnson's agenda is. Maybe he's still pushing for the most brutal version of brexit possible, or maybes he's given up on that. |
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"So indications appear to be that there won’t be a deal on the NIP and instead Sunak is looking to change the entire U.K./EU deal in effect to nullify the NIP.
Boris Johnson already fired off warning shots in Sunak’s direction, but really who is going to argue with Sunak now if he can get a sensible deal with the EU that eases trade restrictions and thereby helps us all live somewhat better lives.
Where do these indications come from? I can't find anything at all
BBC, sky news, independent, evening standard, Irish times, telegraph, yahoo news etc.
All seem to be covering this.
Do any of them state that Sunak is looking to replace the entire deal instead of just the NIP?
I haven't read them all, but the ones I read, didn't.
Which is what I was asking for...
Ah sorry.
I don't know what Johnson's agenda is. Maybe he's still pushing for the most brutal version of brexit possible, or maybes he's given up on that. "
I don't give a fuck about Johnson. I'm interested in where the OP got the first paragraph.
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By *ackal1Couple
over a year ago
Manchester |
I wonder if there’s another agenda here?
Since leaving the EU Northern Ireland is the only area of the U.K. to see growth and in fact a substantial increase in trade with the EU.
Call me cynical but it doesn’t look too good if being in the EU is such a blatant success while the rest of the country is failing and stagnant .
The only complaints from government are how difficult it is for trade between the mainland U.K. and Northern Ireland so the government rightly have said this is bad for business and the economy and must be urgently addressed.
Strange those same rules and restrictions apply for mainland U.K. trade direct to the mainland EU and yet the ministers are silent. Nothing to see here it’s all going to plan.
All very odd!!  |
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By *eroy1000Man
over a year ago
milton keynes |
"I wonder if there’s another agenda here?
Since leaving the EU Northern Ireland is the only area of the U.K. to see growth and in fact a substantial increase in trade with the EU.
Call me cynical but it doesn’t look too good if being in the EU is such a blatant success while the rest of the country is failing and stagnant .
The only complaints from government are how difficult it is for trade between the mainland U.K. and Northern Ireland so the government rightly have said this is bad for business and the economy and must be urgently addressed.
Strange those same rules and restrictions apply for mainland U.K. trade direct to the mainland EU and yet the ministers are silent. Nothing to see here it’s all going to plan.
All very odd!! "
As far as I can find the NI economy has been very up and down. It seems they recovered from covid at a quicker pace than the rest of the UK but since then have at best been average. The BBC report last September actually said NI is the worst performing part of the economy. Not sure if that's improved or not yet |
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By *ackal1Couple
over a year ago
Manchester |
"I wonder if there’s another agenda here?
Since leaving the EU Northern Ireland is the only area of the U.K. to see growth and in fact a substantial increase in trade with the EU.
Call me cynical but it doesn’t look too good if being in the EU is such a blatant success while the rest of the country is failing and stagnant .
The only complaints from government are how difficult it is for trade between the mainland U.K. and Northern Ireland so the government rightly have said this is bad for business and the economy and must be urgently addressed.
Strange those same rules and restrictions apply for mainland U.K. trade direct to the mainland EU and yet the ministers are silent. Nothing to see here it’s all going to plan.
All very odd!!
As far as I can find the NI economy has been very up and down. It seems they recovered from covid at a quicker pace than the rest of the UK but since then have at best been average. The BBC report last September actually said NI is the worst performing part of the economy. Not sure if that's improved or not yet"
As far as I can see all economies other than China have been up and down . Growth in Northern Ireland was considerably higher than the rest of the U.K. since Brexit was implemented in 2020 according to OBR.
Their trade with the EU is also up considerably (Mainly the Irish Republic) and yet the rest of the U.K. is stagnant or tipping into recession according to the BOE/IMF.
Why is that seeing as it’s part of the U.K.? What’s the difference?. Maybe it’s the weather?.
Great news for a deprived area but wonder why it’s not copied in the rest of the U.K. |
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By *otMe66Man
over a year ago
Terra Firma |
"I wonder if there’s another agenda here?
Since leaving the EU Northern Ireland is the only area of the U.K. to see growth and in fact a substantial increase in trade with the EU.
Call me cynical but it doesn’t look too good if being in the EU is such a blatant success while the rest of the country is failing and stagnant .
The only complaints from government are how difficult it is for trade between the mainland U.K. and Northern Ireland so the government rightly have said this is bad for business and the economy and must be urgently addressed.
Strange those same rules and restrictions apply for mainland U.K. trade direct to the mainland EU and yet the ministers are silent. Nothing to see here it’s all going to plan.
All very odd!!
As far as I can find the NI economy has been very up and down. It seems they recovered from covid at a quicker pace than the rest of the UK but since then have at best been average. The BBC report last September actually said NI is the worst performing part of the economy. Not sure if that's improved or not yet
As far as I can see all economies other than China have been up and down . Growth in Northern Ireland was considerably higher than the rest of the U.K. since Brexit was implemented in 2020 according to OBR.
Their trade with the EU is also up considerably (Mainly the Irish Republic) and yet the rest of the U.K. is stagnant or tipping into recession according to the BOE/IMF.
Why is that seeing as it’s part of the U.K.? What’s the difference?. Maybe it’s the weather?.
Great news for a deprived area but wonder why it’s not copied in the rest of the U.K. "
I imagined NI would and will benefit from Brexit. There are no border checks on goods travelling into NI from the South, my assumption was and is, goods from the EU will arrive in the south and be moved to the north, and shipped to the UK. No taxes for what would be some simple repackaging.
This is happening only in my imagination, I have no evidence to back this up, however I honestly thought NI would boom from Brexit. |
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By *eroy1000Man
over a year ago
milton keynes |
"I wonder if there’s another agenda here?
Since leaving the EU Northern Ireland is the only area of the U.K. to see growth and in fact a substantial increase in trade with the EU.
Call me cynical but it doesn’t look too good if being in the EU is such a blatant success while the rest of the country is failing and stagnant .
The only complaints from government are how difficult it is for trade between the mainland U.K. and Northern Ireland so the government rightly have said this is bad for business and the economy and must be urgently addressed.
Strange those same rules and restrictions apply for mainland U.K. trade direct to the mainland EU and yet the ministers are silent. Nothing to see here it’s all going to plan.
All very odd!!
As far as I can find the NI economy has been very up and down. It seems they recovered from covid at a quicker pace than the rest of the UK but since then have at best been average. The BBC report last September actually said NI is the worst performing part of the economy. Not sure if that's improved or not yet
As far as I can see all economies other than China have been up and down . Growth in Northern Ireland was considerably higher than the rest of the U.K. since Brexit was implemented in 2020 according to OBR.
Their trade with the EU is also up considerably (Mainly the Irish Republic) and yet the rest of the U.K. is stagnant or tipping into recession according to the BOE/IMF.
Why is that seeing as it’s part of the U.K.? What’s the difference?. Maybe it’s the weather?.
Great news for a deprived area but wonder why it’s not copied in the rest of the U.K. "
Maybe I'm reading this wrong but it seems the BBC say different in their report and also quote the ONS
https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-northern-ireland-62756206 |
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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago
|
"I wonder if there’s another agenda here?
Since leaving the EU Northern Ireland is the only area of the U.K. to see growth and in fact a substantial increase in trade with the EU.
Call me cynical but it doesn’t look too good if being in the EU is such a blatant success while the rest of the country is failing and stagnant .
The only complaints from government are how difficult it is for trade between the mainland U.K. and Northern Ireland so the government rightly have said this is bad for business and the economy and must be urgently addressed.
Strange those same rules and restrictions apply for mainland U.K. trade direct to the mainland EU and yet the ministers are silent. Nothing to see here it’s all going to plan.
All very odd!!
As far as I can find the NI economy has been very up and down. It seems they recovered from covid at a quicker pace than the rest of the UK but since then have at best been average. The BBC report last September actually said NI is the worst performing part of the economy. Not sure if that's improved or not yet
As far as I can see all economies other than China have been up and down . Growth in Northern Ireland was considerably higher than the rest of the U.K. since Brexit was implemented in 2020 according to OBR.
Their trade with the EU is also up considerably (Mainly the Irish Republic) and yet the rest of the U.K. is stagnant or tipping into recession according to the BOE/IMF.
Why is that seeing as it’s part of the U.K.? What’s the difference?. Maybe it’s the weather?.
Great news for a deprived area but wonder why it’s not copied in the rest of the U.K.
Maybe I'm reading this wrong but it seems the BBC say different in their report and also quote the ONS
https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-northern-ireland-62756206"
feels like you can tell any story if you a pick a quarter. Looking at other stories it seems NI was quicker out of covid, and others caught up.
However the key stat would be how well NI did before the NIP and now. As it may have always been traditionally slower. |
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By *eroy1000Man
over a year ago
milton keynes |
"I wonder if there’s another agenda here?
Since leaving the EU Northern Ireland is the only area of the U.K. to see growth and in fact a substantial increase in trade with the EU.
Call me cynical but it doesn’t look too good if being in the EU is such a blatant success while the rest of the country is failing and stagnant .
The only complaints from government are how difficult it is for trade between the mainland U.K. and Northern Ireland so the government rightly have said this is bad for business and the economy and must be urgently addressed.
Strange those same rules and restrictions apply for mainland U.K. trade direct to the mainland EU and yet the ministers are silent. Nothing to see here it’s all going to plan.
All very odd!!
As far as I can find the NI economy has been very up and down. It seems they recovered from covid at a quicker pace than the rest of the UK but since then have at best been average. The BBC report last September actually said NI is the worst performing part of the economy. Not sure if that's improved or not yet
As far as I can see all economies other than China have been up and down . Growth in Northern Ireland was considerably higher than the rest of the U.K. since Brexit was implemented in 2020 according to OBR.
Their trade with the EU is also up considerably (Mainly the Irish Republic) and yet the rest of the U.K. is stagnant or tipping into recession according to the BOE/IMF.
Why is that seeing as it’s part of the U.K.? What’s the difference?. Maybe it’s the weather?.
Great news for a deprived area but wonder why it’s not copied in the rest of the U.K.
Maybe I'm reading this wrong but it seems the BBC say different in their report and also quote the ONS
https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-northern-ireland-62756206feels like you can tell any story if you a pick a quarter. Looking at other stories it seems NI was quicker out of covid, and others caught up.
However the key stat would be how well NI did before the NIP and now. As it may have always been traditionally slower. "
It is certainly possible for people to cherry pick points in time. For me I openly admit I am only going on reports I see online and think I did mention that NI recovery from covid was faster. That was 2021 but in 2022 it is at best average in the UK with at some points being below average and some points being the worst. To be clear I am not making any claims or saying something us good or bad I am simply saying I do not find the same info as others quoted |
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By *ackal1Couple
over a year ago
Manchester |
"I wonder if there’s another agenda here?
Since leaving the EU Northern Ireland is the only area of the U.K. to see growth and in fact a substantial increase in trade with the EU.
Call me cynical but it doesn’t look too good if being in the EU is such a blatant success while the rest of the country is failing and stagnant .
The only complaints from government are how difficult it is for trade between the mainland U.K. and Northern Ireland so the government rightly have said this is bad for business and the economy and must be urgently addressed.
Strange those same rules and restrictions apply for mainland U.K. trade direct to the mainland EU and yet the ministers are silent. Nothing to see here it’s all going to plan.
All very odd!!
As far as I can find the NI economy has been very up and down. It seems they recovered from covid at a quicker pace than the rest of the UK but since then have at best been average. The BBC report last September actually said NI is the worst performing part of the economy. Not sure if that's improved or not yet
As far as I can see all economies other than China have been up and down . Growth in Northern Ireland was considerably higher than the rest of the U.K. since Brexit was implemented in 2020 according to OBR.
Their trade with the EU is also up considerably (Mainly the Irish Republic) and yet the rest of the U.K. is stagnant or tipping into recession according to the BOE/IMF.
Why is that seeing as it’s part of the U.K.? What’s the difference?. Maybe it’s the weather?.
Great news for a deprived area but wonder why it’s not copied in the rest of the U.K.
Maybe I'm reading this wrong but it seems the BBC say different in their report and also quote the ONS
https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-northern-ireland-62756206"
Yes interesting report on revised data which has been revised yet again. The first have of 2021 was 1.7 while the U.K. was 0.6. Overall since Brexit NI has grown more and subsequently suffered less. Your point on up and down is a good one though and valid.
Also in your article this was an interesting quote which clearly shows the reality of what Brexit has imposed.
“ It keeps Northern Ireland inside the EU's single market for goods, giving Northern Ireland manufacturers better access to the EU than companies in other parts of the UK.
But it also means there are checks and controls on goods entering Northern Ireland from Great Britain, leading to added cost and complexity for importing businesses”
These added costs and complexities are not acceptable and damage industry and growth. These are the words of the government. I’ll ask again. Why are they silent on the rest of the UK’s added costs and complexities?.
The stats are quite interesting because if you look at the bare numbers for 2022 NI was .4% below the U.K. average. However when you add the fall due to covid prior it was much less so the actual increase is actual greater. Remember the quotes that we had the fastest growing economy? They failed to mention it was all recovery and not growth. So in truth we were the slowest economy.
The CBI best estimates for 2023 are U.K. average GDP a fall of 0-4% with NI not doing brilliant but growth of 1% which is supported by Deutsche bank.
The OBR are in revision again.
I agree NI isn’t booming but can you imagine the fall if it had stayed outside the EU? |
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Personally I can’t see any deal being done to nullify the NI Protocol to the extent that it will be acceptable to the DUP.
As long as SF are the largest party in Stormont, the DUP will not re-enter government!
The NI protocol is just a smokescreen!
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By *eroy1000Man
over a year ago
milton keynes |
"I wonder if there’s another agenda here?
Since leaving the EU Northern Ireland is the only area of the U.K. to see growth and in fact a substantial increase in trade with the EU.
Call me cynical but it doesn’t look too good if being in the EU is such a blatant success while the rest of the country is failing and stagnant .
The only complaints from government are how difficult it is for trade between the mainland U.K. and Northern Ireland so the government rightly have said this is bad for business and the economy and must be urgently addressed.
Strange those same rules and restrictions apply for mainland U.K. trade direct to the mainland EU and yet the ministers are silent. Nothing to see here it’s all going to plan.
All very odd!!
As far as I can find the NI economy has been very up and down. It seems they recovered from covid at a quicker pace than the rest of the UK but since then have at best been average. The BBC report last September actually said NI is the worst performing part of the economy. Not sure if that's improved or not yet
As far as I can see all economies other than China have been up and down . Growth in Northern Ireland was considerably higher than the rest of the U.K. since Brexit was implemented in 2020 according to OBR.
Their trade with the EU is also up considerably (Mainly the Irish Republic) and yet the rest of the U.K. is stagnant or tipping into recession according to the BOE/IMF.
Why is that seeing as it’s part of the U.K.? What’s the difference?. Maybe it’s the weather?.
Great news for a deprived area but wonder why it’s not copied in the rest of the U.K.
Maybe I'm reading this wrong but it seems the BBC say different in their report and also quote the ONS
https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-northern-ireland-62756206
Yes interesting report on revised data which has been revised yet again. The first have of 2021 was 1.7 while the U.K. was 0.6. Overall since Brexit NI has grown more and subsequently suffered less. Your point on up and down is a good one though and valid.
Also in your article this was an interesting quote which clearly shows the reality of what Brexit has imposed.
“ It keeps Northern Ireland inside the EU's single market for goods, giving Northern Ireland manufacturers better access to the EU than companies in other parts of the UK.
But it also means there are checks and controls on goods entering Northern Ireland from Great Britain, leading to added cost and complexity for importing businesses”
These added costs and complexities are not acceptable and damage industry and growth. These are the words of the government. I’ll ask again. Why are they silent on the rest of the UK’s added costs and complexities?.
The stats are quite interesting because if you look at the bare numbers for 2022 NI was .4% below the U.K. average. However when you add the fall due to covid prior it was much less so the actual increase is actual greater. Remember the quotes that we had the fastest growing economy? They failed to mention it was all recovery and not growth. So in truth we were the slowest economy.
The CBI best estimates for 2023 are U.K. average GDP a fall of 0-4% with NI not doing brilliant but growth of 1% which is supported by Deutsche bank.
The OBR are in revision again.
I agree NI isn’t booming but can you imagine the fall if it had stayed outside the EU? "
Getting data to compare one to the other is not as easy as I would have hoped. HI are in a unique position so in theory should do well but it's not always looking like that. Now the recovery from covid is done or almost done and things are more normal (no lockdown) it seems NI have slipped back somewhat hence the BBC report. I would hope that once the NI protocol is revised and NI to GB trade is easier then they should in theory at least do well. |
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"I wonder if there’s another agenda here?
Since leaving the EU Northern Ireland is the only area of the U.K. to see growth and in fact a substantial increase in trade with the EU.
Call me cynical but it doesn’t look too good if being in the EU is such a blatant success while the rest of the country is failing and stagnant .
The only complaints from government are how difficult it is for trade between the mainland U.K. and Northern Ireland so the government rightly have said this is bad for business and the economy and must be urgently addressed.
Strange those same rules and restrictions apply for mainland U.K. trade direct to the mainland EU and yet the ministers are silent. Nothing to see here it’s all going to plan.
All very odd!!
As far as I can find the NI economy has been very up and down. It seems they recovered from covid at a quicker pace than the rest of the UK but since then have at best been average. The BBC report last September actually said NI is the worst performing part of the economy. Not sure if that's improved or not yet
As far as I can see all economies other than China have been up and down . Growth in Northern Ireland was considerably higher than the rest of the U.K. since Brexit was implemented in 2020 according to OBR.
Their trade with the EU is also up considerably (Mainly the Irish Republic) and yet the rest of the U.K. is stagnant or tipping into recession according to the BOE/IMF.
Why is that seeing as it’s part of the U.K.? What’s the difference?. Maybe it’s the weather?.
Great news for a deprived area but wonder why it’s not copied in the rest of the U.K.
Maybe I'm reading this wrong but it seems the BBC say different in their report and also quote the ONS
https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-northern-ireland-62756206
Yes interesting report on revised data which has been revised yet again. The first have of 2021 was 1.7 while the U.K. was 0.6. Overall since Brexit NI has grown more and subsequently suffered less. Your point on up and down is a good one though and valid.
Also in your article this was an interesting quote which clearly shows the reality of what Brexit has imposed.
“ It keeps Northern Ireland inside the EU's single market for goods, giving Northern Ireland manufacturers better access to the EU than companies in other parts of the UK.
But it also means there are checks and controls on goods entering Northern Ireland from Great Britain, leading to added cost and complexity for importing businesses”
These added costs and complexities are not acceptable and damage industry and growth. These are the words of the government. I’ll ask again. Why are they silent on the rest of the UK’s added costs and complexities?.
The stats are quite interesting because if you look at the bare numbers for 2022 NI was .4% below the U.K. average. However when you add the fall due to covid prior it was much less so the actual increase is actual greater. Remember the quotes that we had the fastest growing economy? They failed to mention it was all recovery and not growth. So in truth we were the slowest economy.
The CBI best estimates for 2023 are U.K. average GDP a fall of 0-4% with NI not doing brilliant but growth of 1% which is supported by Deutsche bank.
The OBR are in revision again.
I agree NI isn’t booming but can you imagine the fall if it had stayed outside the EU?
Getting data to compare one to the other is not as easy as I would have hoped. HI are in a unique position so in theory should do well but it's not always looking like that. Now the recovery from covid is done or almost done and things are more normal (no lockdown) it seems NI have slipped back somewhat hence the BBC report. I would hope that once the NI protocol is revised and NI to GB trade is easier then they should in theory at least do well."
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