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"As a Scotsman and Scottish independence supporter I know all the reasons why I want my country to be independent. What baffles me is why a fair amount of English people think England subsidises Scotland to their detriment and that there's not a bigger push from the general public to either remove Scotland from the union or for England to leave the union? Why if we are such a drain are we being kept? Why foesnt England want independence?" I am English and would like England to be part of the Union. I love Scotland but I can understand and wouldn’t try to stop them from being independent. | |||
"As a Scotsman and Scottish independence supporter I know all the reasons why I want my country to be independent. What baffles me is why a fair amount of English people think England subsidises Scotland to their detriment and that there's not a bigger push from the general public to either remove Scotland from the union or for England to leave the union? Why if we are such a drain are we being kept? Why foesnt England want independence?" How would Scotland be better off by being independent? Real benefits, not political party talk. What will it give the people of Scotland that they do not have now? Second part of the question.. How would independence actually work, how will you manage your borders, money, tax, laws etc. What would you do so better you don't end up with a failed brexit scenario, giving you nothing but red tape and headaches? | |||
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"As a Scotsman and Scottish independence supporter I know all the reasons why I want my country to be independent. What baffles me is why a fair amount of English people think England subsidises Scotland to their detriment and that there's not a bigger push from the general public to either remove Scotland from the union or for England to leave the union? Why if we are such a drain are we being kept? Why foesnt England want independence? How would Scotland be better off by being independent? Real benefits, not political party talk. What will it give the people of Scotland that they do not have now? Second part of the question.. How would independence actually work, how will you manage your borders, money, tax, laws etc. What would you do so better you don't end up with a failed brexit scenario, giving you nothing but red tape and headaches? " This post is not to figure out Scottish independence, its to ask why England doesn't want its own independence? | |||
"With the clusterfuck that is Brexit, why would any country make the same mistake of thinking isolationism is better.." Ironically, being part of the union is what has isolated Scotland with brexit. | |||
"With the clusterfuck that is Brexit, why would any country make the same mistake of thinking isolationism is better.. Ironically, being part of the union is what has isolated Scotland with brexit. " Valid point but I'm not sure the solution isn't to become a 'smaller fish'.. | |||
"With the clusterfuck that is Brexit, why would any country make the same mistake of thinking isolationism is better.. Ironically, being part of the union is what has isolated Scotland with brexit. There are many examples of successful "smaller fish" in the world. Valid point but I'm not sure the solution isn't to become a 'smaller fish'.. " | |||
"As a Scotsman and Scottish independence supporter I know all the reasons why I want my country to be independent. What baffles me is why a fair amount of English people think England subsidises Scotland to their detriment and that there's not a bigger push from the general public to either remove Scotland from the union or for England to leave the union? Why if we are such a drain are we being kept? Why foesnt England want independence? How would Scotland be better off by being independent? Real benefits, not political party talk. What will it give the people of Scotland that they do not have now? Second part of the question.. How would independence actually work, how will you manage your borders, money, tax, laws etc. What would you do so better you don't end up with a failed brexit scenario, giving you nothing but red tape and headaches? This post is not to figure out Scottish independence, its to ask why England doesn't want its own independence? " I think my questions are fair, tell me the benefits of Scottish independence and then I can begin to understand if that would benefit the Union or not for England. You are independence driven, this should be an easy ask, educate me.  | |||
"As a Scotsman and Scottish independence supporter I know all the reasons why I want my country to be independent. What baffles me is why a fair amount of English people think England subsidises Scotland to their detriment and that there's not a bigger push from the general public to either remove Scotland from the union or for England to leave the union? Why if we are such a drain are we being kept? Why foesnt England want independence? How would Scotland be better off by being independent? Real benefits, not political party talk. What will it give the people of Scotland that they do not have now? Second part of the question.. How would independence actually work, how will you manage your borders, money, tax, laws etc. What would you do so better you don't end up with a failed brexit scenario, giving you nothing but red tape and headaches? This post is not to figure out Scottish independence, its to ask why England doesn't want its own independence? I think my questions are fair, tell me the benefits of Scottish independence and then I can begin to understand if that would benefit the Union or not for England. You are independence driven, this should be an easy ask, educate me. "My take on this is quite straightforward. Westminster is metaphorically and physically miles away from Scotland in so many different ways. Literally speaking, Scotland is also its own country and ought to have the right to pursue whatever destiny that the Scottish people choose. Brexit fundamentally changed the playing field after the first referendum because Scotland has been forcibly removed from the European Union against its wishes. The UK Government could have accepted that Scotland did not want to leave the EU and negotiated a protocol similar to Northern Ireland, but they didn't. The Scottish people that I know say that they are very keen to remove themselves from a union where they feel subservient and controlled by Westminster in favour of a union where they would be regarded as equals in the European family. Consent is an issue that defines us as humans and as long as you deny people their own rights to choose their own destiny, you are to all intents and purposes subjugating them and that will NEVER end well. This applies to us personally in relationships, in our work and it applies to how Governments work. | |||
"With the clusterfuck that is Brexit, why would any country make the same mistake of thinking isolationism is better.. Ironically, being part of the union is what has isolated Scotland with brexit. There are many examples of successful "smaller fish" in the world. Valid point but I'm not sure the solution isn't to become a 'smaller fish'.. " Indeed there are, each country is different.. Equally some find it better to not swim alone.. | |||
"With the clusterfuck that is Brexit, why would any country make the same mistake of thinking isolationism is better.." Scotland do not want to be isolated, they have just had enough of being told what to do by people who they feel are taking them in a direction that they do not want to go. Their preference is to have closer economic ties with other European countries rather than be dragged into ideological isolation by Westminster. | |||
"With the clusterfuck that is Brexit, why would any country make the same mistake of thinking isolationism is better.. Scotland do not want to be isolated, they have just had enough of being told what to do by people who they feel are taking them in a direction that they do not want to go. Their preference is to have closer economic ties with other European countries rather than be dragged into ideological isolation by Westminster. " I agree and I don't blame them either under the current government, and if they vote for it I'll be sad to see them leave but respect their decisions.. I may be micro analysing or assuming with how much a mess it is with us the leaving the EU any such decision will have in the current wishes if some.. But if that's how they do go then that's up to them.. | |||
"As a Scotsman and Scottish independence supporter I know all the reasons why I want my country to be independent. What baffles me is why a fair amount of English people think England subsidises Scotland to their detriment and that there's not a bigger push from the general public to either remove Scotland from the union or for England to leave the union? Why if we are such a drain are we being kept? Why foesnt England want independence? How would Scotland be better off by being independent? Real benefits, not political party talk. What will it give the people of Scotland that they do not have now? Second part of the question.. How would independence actually work, how will you manage your borders, money, tax, laws etc. What would you do so better you don't end up with a failed brexit scenario, giving you nothing but red tape and headaches? This post is not to figure out Scottish independence, its to ask why England doesn't want its own independence? I think my questions are fair, tell me the benefits of Scottish independence and then I can begin to understand if that would benefit the Union or not for England. You are independence driven, this should be an easy ask, educate me.
My take on this is quite straightforward.
Westminster is metaphorically and physically miles away from Scotland in so many different ways. Literally speaking, Scotland is also its own country and ought to have the right to pursue whatever destiny that the Scottish people choose.
Brexit fundamentally changed the playing field after the first referendum because Scotland has been forcibly removed from the European Union against its wishes. The UK Government could have accepted that Scotland did not want to leave the EU and negotiated a protocol similar to Northern Ireland, but they didn't.
The Scottish people that I know say that they are very keen to remove themselves from a union where they feel subservient and controlled by Westminster in favour of a union where they would be regarded as equals in the European family.
Consent is an issue that defines us as humans and as long as you deny people their own rights to choose their own destiny, you are to all intents and purposes subjugating them and that will NEVER end well. This applies to us personally in relationships, in our work and it applies to how Governments work."The choice of your own destiny is secondary if your choice is not that of the majority. If we applied your logic to the rest of the country wouldn't we potentially end up with the united areas and non united of the UK. What would stop London going alone, what would then stop Manchester and Birmingham? The northern towns that overwhelmingly voted for Brexit, what becomes of them? If we park this and move to benefits of independence, what are they? Not that someone has got what they want, the real life benefits. Is it better education, healthcare, law and order, tax? What would it bring? | |||
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"With the clusterfuck that is Brexit, why would any country make the same mistake of thinking isolationism is better.." My thinking exactly. | |||
"With the clusterfuck that is Brexit, why would any country make the same mistake of thinking isolationism is better.. My thinking exactly." Spoiler alert. I'm a Unionist and always have been. I've never understood why the English dont push for a devolved English Government separate from westminster. Perhaps that would be a step too close to federalism. I think Brexit is a disaster and was a spectacular failure of David Camerons leadership by allowing a referendum on the matter in the first place. But now that we are out if anyone in Scotland thinks that an independent Scotland would be allowed to join the EU they are in for a nasty surprise. Not in any way will Spain allow an independent Scotland to join as they will never allow a precedence to be set for Catalonia. If Scotland were ever to become independend we would be out on our lonesome with no trade, no money and no prospects of either any time soon. | |||
"As a Scotsman and Scottish independence supporter I know all the reasons why I want my country to be independent. What baffles me is why a fair amount of English people think England subsidises Scotland to their detriment and that there's not a bigger push from the general public to either remove Scotland from the union or for England to leave the union? Why if we are such a drain are we being kept? Why foesnt England want independence?" What type of independence are you talking about? Sturgeon's type which involves joining the EU so she can beg off the Germans and French? England definitely pays for Scotland. That's why krankie recently asked Westminster for almost 4 billion to subsidise her bloated socialist shithole of a country. And before you whine,I'm Scots and live here. My country is a begging bowl. England pays for us. Without English money we would collapse . Go on make me laugh you plank, tell me why you want Scotland to be independent. ie. Free to beg from other countries. The nats have wrecked Scotland. | |||
"With the clusterfuck that is Brexit, why would any country make the same mistake of thinking isolationism is better.." What are you talking about??? Brexit was never about money. It was about freedom to make your own decisions. Wtf is it with you europhile? The EU is not about trade,it's a political entity designed to end the nation state. Ffs. Brexit has not happened. We are still tied to the shithole that is Brussels through the echr. An out dated convention put into operation in 1953 that was never meant to last 70 years. Our so called leaders are all europhiles and globalists. | |||
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"As a Scotsman and Scottish independence supporter I know all the reasons why I want my country to be independent. What baffles me is why a fair amount of English people think England subsidises Scotland to their detriment and that there's not a bigger push from the general public to either remove Scotland from the union or for England to leave the union? Why if we are such a drain are we being kept? Why foesnt England want independence? How would Scotland be better off by being independent? Real benefits, not political party talk. What will it give the people of Scotland that they do not have now? Second part of the question.. How would independence actually work, how will you manage your borders, money, tax, laws etc. What would you do so better you don't end up with a failed brexit scenario, giving you nothing but red tape and headaches? This post is not to figure out Scottish independence, its to ask why England doesn't want its own independence? I think my questions are fair, tell me the benefits of Scottish independence and then I can begin to understand if that would benefit the Union or not for England. You are independence driven, this should be an easy ask, educate me.
My take on this is quite straightforward.
Westminster is metaphorically and physically miles away from Scotland in so many different ways. Literally speaking, Scotland is also its own country and ought to have the right to pursue whatever destiny that the Scottish people choose.
Brexit fundamentally changed the playing field after the first referendum because Scotland has been forcibly removed from the European Union against its wishes. The UK Government could have accepted that Scotland did not want to leave the EU and negotiated a protocol similar to Northern Ireland, but they didn't.
The Scottish people that I know say that they are very keen to remove themselves from a union where they feel subservient and controlled by Westminster in favour of a union where they would be regarded as equals in the European family.
Consent is an issue that defines us as humans and as long as you deny people their own rights to choose their own destiny, you are to all intents and purposes subjugating them and that will NEVER end well. This applies to us personally in relationships, in our work and it applies to how Governments work."What the hell has distance got to do with it? Vladivostok is about 6000 miles from Moscow. San Francisco about 3000 miles from Washington. Wtf are you talking about distance for? Scotland was not forcibly forced to do anything. We are part of the UK. It was a uk referendum. Ffs london voted to stay. Should london stay and other parts leave? Scotland is part of the uk. I'm Scots, I'm British. My ancestors died fighting for British freedom in 2 world wars. I'm sick of this crap. Wtf have we in common with Germany or France or Spain? Fuk all. We have more in common with Australia and Canada. Europeans have zero concept of freedom or liberty. Most European countries in the 20th century were either fascist, nazi,communist or dictatorships. The english speaking world ended that and brought liberty. Wtf would any jock with brain cells that connected want anything to do with those appalling countries? They still do not understand the concept of liberty. That's why the EU exists. To eradicate democracy, the nation state,centralise power and remove the people from decision making processes. Wake up ffs. | |||
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"I am a unionist and I couldn't care less about devolution. It's bollocks. How many layers of it do we have? It's an absolute shambles. Councils and combined authorities, why? 9 metro mayors and 1 without a mayor? Seriously why? Why not simplify it for everyone and get on with it? Give everyone the same. English parliament, whatever. But we already have a local authority, just give it the tools. Adding another layer of government won't solve any of our problems. " Close all the parliaments apart from Westminster. Holyrood is an expensive vanity exercise it's a waste of time and space. Bulldoze it. | |||
"With the clusterfuck that is Brexit, why would any country make the same mistake of thinking isolationism is better.. What are you talking about??? Brexit was never about money. It was about freedom to make your own decisions. Wtf is it with you europhile? The EU is not about trade,it's a political entity designed to end the nation state. Ffs. Brexit has not happened. We are still tied to the shithole that is Brussels through the echr. An out dated convention put into operation in 1953 that was never meant to last 70 years. Our so called leaders are all europhiles and globalists. " This post has won the fab forums! Most confusion in a single post. Most nonsensical post of all time. Most misdirected rage in a single post. Bravo. A clean sweep of awards. | |||
"With the clusterfuck that is Brexit, why would any country make the same mistake of thinking isolationism is better.. What are you talking about??? Brexit was never about money. It was about freedom to make your own decisions. Wtf is it with you europhile? The EU is not about trade,it's a political entity designed to end the nation state. Ffs. Brexit has not happened. We are still tied to the shithole that is Brussels through the echr. An out dated convention put into operation in 1953 that was never meant to last 70 years. Our so called leaders are all europhiles and globalists. This post has won the fab forums! Most confusion in a single post. Most nonsensical post of all time. Most misdirected rage in a single post. Bravo. A clean sweep of awards. " Explain. | |||
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"Scotland was free to choose independence in 2014. It chose not to. Of course a lot has happened since then, covid, brexit and all sorts of things. But if they were so concerned about leaving the EU, why argue in favour of independence in 2014? Which is what many who want independence now did. You could certainly argue a case for independence, even another referendum. Such matters seldom come down to economics. You can't put a price on self-determine. But there may be a cost which you cannot put in economic terms. Some of the most opposed to independence were Orkney and the Shetland islands. If they are taken out of the union against their will, surely their part of an independence Scottish state should be voluntary? What if they wish to remain closer aligned to what's left of the UK over Scotland? All so Scotland can have a closer relationship with territories it does not border and is more difficult to trade with. " The world is full of economic migrants trying to enter richer more stable countries with better economies. Self-determination means nothing if you cannot work and earn the money to feed your family. So for me the first step in destroying the status quo is to answer the question; do the economics stack up? Since it first took power the SNP has used Scotland's higher, per capita, funding to "bribe" its voters with free prescriptions, universities, etc. in the hope that when it comes to it the Scottish people will vote for Independence. My concern is if they get it they will have to find money to continue the bribes for a while at least as well carry their own massive debt and their share of the UK's debt. As a result I can see me, and many more like me, move back to England because we will be taxed to hell. This would of course only make the tax situation worse still. | |||
"The world is full of economic migrants trying to enter richer more stable countries with better economies. " And quite right too. Many businesses and public sectors have lost staff due to Brexit, and then due to Covid in some part as well. Economic migrants are needed to replace them and also then generate tax revenue. I know some businesses who could no longer remain viable without the labour, so in a very real sense their former overseas staff were helping the owner to have work and his HIS family. He relied on them. When they went, he was screwed. I cannot see what economic migrants has to do with self-determination or independence however, so I am not sure why it is part of your reply. Chalk and cheese, IMHO. With regards to the SNP "bribing" voters, you do realise all political parties do this, right ? It's called appeasing and maintaining your supporter base, and winning extra votes if you can in to the bargain. It's not unique to the SNP. Allow them their vote. If if they want to leave, let them. And every 4-5 years allow them another vote. If they change their minds, let them rejoin. Allow countries maximum flexibility to course change their destinies as their citizens desire. | |||
"The world is full of economic migrants trying to enter richer more stable countries with better economies. And quite right too. Many businesses and public sectors have lost staff due to Brexit, and then due to Covid in some part as well. Economic migrants are needed to replace them and also then generate tax revenue. I know some businesses who could no longer remain viable without the labour, so in a very real sense their former overseas staff were helping the owner to have work and his HIS family. He relied on them. When they went, he was screwed. I cannot see what economic migrants has to do with self-determination or independence however, so I am not sure why it is part of your reply. Chalk and cheese, IMHO. With regards to the SNP "bribing" voters, you do realise all political parties do this, right ? It's called appeasing and maintaining your supporter base, and winning extra votes if you can in to the bargain. It's not unique to the SNP. Allow them their vote. If if they want to leave, let them. And every 4-5 years allow them another vote. If they change their minds, let them rejoin. Allow countries maximum flexibility to course change their destinies as their citizens desire. " I was trying to say, Economic migration from allegly self governing democratic countries, where the people have self determination, shows that economic measures trump self determination any day. For this reason I would not support independence if the Scottish economy was going to be damaged by it; as currently every assessment says it will. I am aware that the SNP, and others, buy votes. The point I was trying to make is, if they gained independence, either most, if not all, the bribes would have to go, or the tax burden would have to rise massively leading to a huge drain of skilled and professional folk a few miles south into England. | |||
"The world is full of economic migrants trying to enter richer more stable countries with better economies. And quite right too. Many businesses and public sectors have lost staff due to Brexit, and then due to Covid in some part as well. Economic migrants are needed to replace them and also then generate tax revenue. I know some businesses who could no longer remain viable without the labour, so in a very real sense their former overseas staff were helping the owner to have work and his HIS family. He relied on them. When they went, he was screwed. I cannot see what economic migrants has to do with self-determination or independence however, so I am not sure why it is part of your reply. Chalk and cheese, IMHO. With regards to the SNP "bribing" voters, you do realise all political parties do this, right ? It's called appeasing and maintaining your supporter base, and winning extra votes if you can in to the bargain. It's not unique to the SNP. Allow them their vote. If if they want to leave, let them. And every 4-5 years allow them another vote. If they change their minds, let them rejoin. Allow countries maximum flexibility to course change their destinies as their citizens desire. I was trying to say, Economic migration from allegly self governing democratic countries, where the people have self determination, shows that economic measures trump self determination any day. For this reason I would not support independence if the Scottish economy was going to be damaged by it; as currently every assessment says it will. I am aware that the SNP, and others, buy votes. The point I was trying to make is, if they gained independence, either most, if not all, the bribes would have to go, or the tax burden would have to rise massively leading to a huge drain of skilled and professional folk a few miles south into England. " I would argue that when people are faced with having their self-determination stripped from them, they tend not to give up without a fight. Quite a lot of places fought quite hard for it, even if it made them poorer. In addition to that, eonomic migration tends to be from places from weaker democracies to stronger democracies. If you really believe the economics trump self-determination, quite a lot of wars would not have occured and it sets a particularly dangerous precedent. | |||
"As a Scotsman and Scottish independence supporter I know all the reasons why I want my country to be independent. What baffles me is why a fair amount of English people think England subsidises Scotland to their detriment and that there's not a bigger push from the general public to either remove Scotland from the union or for England to leave the union? Why if we are such a drain are we being kept? Why foesnt England want independence?" As an Englishman I'm fully supportive of Scotland being an independent country if that's what it wants. The problem is that it doesn't. Some of the Scots like to talk big but there simply isn't enough support for independence. And frankly Sturgeon has completely cocked things up. She has shown that Scotland as an independent SNP run country would just be a incompetent corrupt dictatorship. Presumably even she realises that the "independence" dream is no more, so is now turning to ludicrous trans policies in desperation as it's all that she has left. | |||
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"The world is full of economic migrants trying to enter richer more stable countries with better economies. And quite right too. Many businesses and public sectors have lost staff due to Brexit, and then due to Covid in some part as well. Economic migrants are needed to replace them and also then generate tax revenue. I know some businesses who could no longer remain viable without the labour, so in a very real sense their former overseas staff were helping the owner to have work and his HIS family. He relied on them. When they went, he was screwed. I cannot see what economic migrants has to do with self-determination or independence however, so I am not sure why it is part of your reply. Chalk and cheese, IMHO. With regards to the SNP "bribing" voters, you do realise all political parties do this, right ? It's called appeasing and maintaining your supporter base, and winning extra votes if you can in to the bargain. It's not unique to the SNP. Allow them their vote. If if they want to leave, let them. And every 4-5 years allow them another vote. If they change their minds, let them rejoin. Allow countries maximum flexibility to course change their destinies as their citizens desire. I was trying to say, Economic migration from allegly self governing democratic countries, where the people have self determination, shows that economic measures trump self determination any day. For this reason I would not support independence if the Scottish economy was going to be damaged by it; as currently every assessment says it will. I am aware that the SNP, and others, buy votes. The point I was trying to make is, if they gained independence, either most, if not all, the bribes would have to go, or the tax burden would have to rise massively leading to a huge drain of skilled and professional folk a few miles south into England. I would argue that when people are faced with having their self-determination stripped from them, they tend not to give up without a fight. Quite a lot of places fought quite hard for it, even if it made them poorer. In addition to that, eonomic migration tends to be from places from weaker democracies to stronger democracies. If you really believe the economics trump self-determination, quite a lot of wars would not have occured and it sets a particularly dangerous precedent." I do see your point but do not agree the Scottish people do not have self-determination. Hollyrood has a very wide range of powers and responsibilities. Only a few tasks are retained by Westminister so that we can have open borders and free trade between England and Scotland. If an independent Scotland rejoined the EU they would arguably have less self determination than they do now. In all the things that matter to the general public the SNP/Greens alliance have control over their lives. However, that power is not enough for Nichola Sturgeon, so she presses on for more. I would rather that, after 16 years in power, they stopped blaming Westminister for their failures and got on solving the problems. Economic migration takes place at all levels in society. As an example, a guy might move from good job in Manchester to London for a better salary and prospects. Even I, as a pensioner, know I pay £124:00 more in income Tax each year living in Scotland than I would in England. If the SNP drives that up to £1,000 or more I might well move to Berwick upon T. 
Wars are economic as someone always wins finantially be it arms manufacturers or construction companies. Some are started by what appears to be arrogant dictators (e.g. Putin) but in reality Russia wants Ukraine's massive wheat fields so they don't have to pay so much for their grain. Economics or money always have a huge influence. | |||
"The world is full of economic migrants trying to enter richer more stable countries with better economies. And quite right too. Many businesses and public sectors have lost staff due to Brexit, and then due to Covid in some part as well. Economic migrants are needed to replace them and also then generate tax revenue. I know some businesses who could no longer remain viable without the labour, so in a very real sense their former overseas staff were helping the owner to have work and his HIS family. He relied on them. When they went, he was screwed. I cannot see what economic migrants has to do with self-determination or independence however, so I am not sure why it is part of your reply. Chalk and cheese, IMHO. With regards to the SNP "bribing" voters, you do realise all political parties do this, right ? It's called appeasing and maintaining your supporter base, and winning extra votes if you can in to the bargain. It's not unique to the SNP. Allow them their vote. If if they want to leave, let them. And every 4-5 years allow them another vote. If they change their minds, let them rejoin. Allow countries maximum flexibility to course change their destinies as their citizens desire. I was trying to say, Economic migration from allegly self governing democratic countries, where the people have self determination, shows that economic measures trump self determination any day. For this reason I would not support independence if the Scottish economy was going to be damaged by it; as currently every assessment says it will. I am aware that the SNP, and others, buy votes. The point I was trying to make is, if they gained independence, either most, if not all, the bribes would have to go, or the tax burden would have to rise massively leading to a huge drain of skilled and professional folk a few miles south into England. I would argue that when people are faced with having their self-determination stripped from them, they tend not to give up without a fight. Quite a lot of places fought quite hard for it, even if it made them poorer. In addition to that, eonomic migration tends to be from places from weaker democracies to stronger democracies. If you really believe the economics trump self-determination, quite a lot of wars would not have occured and it sets a particularly dangerous precedent. I do see your point but do not agree the Scottish people do not have self-determination. Hollyrood has a very wide range of powers and responsibilities. Only a few tasks are retained by Westminister so that we can have open borders and free trade between England and Scotland. If an independent Scotland rejoined the EU they would arguably have less self determination than they do now. In all the things that matter to the general public the SNP/Greens alliance have control over their lives. However, that power is not enough for Nichola Sturgeon, so she presses on for more. I would rather that, after 16 years in power, they stopped blaming Westminister for their failures and got on solving the problems. Economic migration takes place at all levels in society. As an example, a guy might move from good job in Manchester to London for a better salary and prospects. Even I, as a pensioner, know I pay £124:00 more in income Tax each year living in Scotland than I would in England. If the SNP drives that up to £1,000 or more I might well move to Berwick upon T.
Wars are economic as someone always wins finantially be it arms manufacturers or construction companies. Some are started by what appears to be arrogant dictators (e.g. Putin) but in reality Russia wants Ukraine's massive wheat fields so they don't have to pay so much for their grain. Economics or money always have a huge influence. "I did not say, or imply, that Scots don't have self-determination. Scroll far enough and you'll see I even questioned the logic of a 2nd ref. But while it may be illogical, it should not be down to Westminster and self-determination trumps the economics in any case. In 2013, Ukraine's president opted to accept more lucrative Russian loans which came with no pre-conditions over EU loans, which did. The goal of the subsequent Ukrainian protests was to become closer to the European Union, even if it was less lucrative. Even after Russian military incursions, many Ukrainians fought on. If they'd given in, they'd have been in a better financial situation. So why didn't they? Self-determination is more important than the economics. Scotland's future should be in Scotland's hands, not ours. The economic ramifications may be horrendous but it's not our place in England to prevent them from carrying it out. Again, just placing economics above self-determination sets a dangerous precedent. You're referring to economic migration between states which have self-determination. I said explicitly that economic migration tends to come from less developed democracies. Choosing a Western European state over another isn't really what I meant and I think you recognise that. | |||
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"The world is full of economic migrants trying to enter richer more stable countries with better economies. And quite right too. Many businesses and public sectors have lost staff due to Brexit, and then due to Covid in some part as well. Economic migrants are needed to replace them and also then generate tax revenue. I know some businesses who could no longer remain viable without the labour, so in a very real sense their former overseas staff were helping the owner to have work and his HIS family. He relied on them. When they went, he was screwed. I cannot see what economic migrants has to do with self-determination or independence however, so I am not sure why it is part of your reply. Chalk and cheese, IMHO. With regards to the SNP "bribing" voters, you do realise all political parties do this, right ? It's called appeasing and maintaining your supporter base, and winning extra votes if you can in to the bargain. It's not unique to the SNP. Allow them their vote. If if they want to leave, let them. And every 4-5 years allow them another vote. If they change their minds, let them rejoin. Allow countries maximum flexibility to course change their destinies as their citizens desire. I was trying to say, Economic migration from allegly self governing democratic countries, where the people have self determination, shows that economic measures trump self determination any day. For this reason I would not support independence if the Scottish economy was going to9 be damaged by it; as currently every assessment says it will. I am aware that the SNP, and others, buy votes. The point I was trying to make is, if they gained independence, either most, if not all, the bribes would have to go, or the tax burden would have to rise massively leading to a huge drain of skilled and professional folk a few miles south into England. I would argue that when people are faced with having their self-determination stripped from them, they tend not to give up without a fight. Quite a lot of places fought quite hard for it, even if it made them poorer. In addition to that, eonomic migration tends to be from places from weaker democracies to stronger democracies. If you really believe the economics trump self-determination, quite a lot of wars would not have occured and it sets a particularly dangerous precedent. I do see your point but do not agree the Scottish people do not have self-determination. Hollyrood has a very wide range of powers and responsibilities. Only a few tasks are retained by Westminister so that we can have open borders and free trade between England and Scotland. If an independent Scotland rejoined the EU they would arguably have less self determination than they do now. In all the things that matter to the general public the SNP/Greens alliance have control over their lives. However, that power is not enough for Nichola Sturgeon, so she presses on for more. I would rather that, after 16 years in power, they stopped blaming Westminister for their failures and got on solving the problems. Economic migration takes place at all levels in society. As an example, a guy might move from good job in Manchester to London for a better salary and prospects. Even I, as a pensioner, know I pay £124:00 more in income Tax each year living in Scotland than I would in England. If the SNP drives that up to £1,000 or more I might well move to Berwick upon T.
Wars are economic as someone always wins finantially be it arms manufacturers or construction companies. Some are started by what appears to be arrogant dictators (e.g. Putin) but in reality Russia wants Ukraine's massive wheat fields so they don't have to pay so much for their grain. Economics or money always have a huge influence.
I did not say, or imply, that Scots don't have self-determination. Scroll far enough and you'll see I even questioned the logic of a 2nd ref. But while it may be illogical, it should not be down to Westminster and self-determination trumps the economics in any case.
In 2013, Ukraine's president opted to accept more lucrative Russian loans which came with no pre-conditions over EU loans, which did. The goal of the subsequent Ukrainian protests was to become closer to the European Union, even if it was less lucrative. Even after Russian military incursions, many Ukrainians fought on. If they'd given in, they'd have been in a better financial situation. So why didn't they? Self-determination is more important than the economics. Scotland's future should be in Scotland's hands, not ours. The economic ramifications may be horrendous but it's not our place in England to prevent them from carrying it out. Again, just placing economics above self-determination sets a dangerous precedent.
You're referring to economic migration between states which have self-determination. I said explicitly that economic migration tends to come from less developed democracies. Choosing a Western European state over another isn't really what I meant and I think you recognise that. "Ukraine is an interesting situation. It was a bloodless invasion whereby pro-Russia President Viktor Yanukovych and his cohort effectively subjugated the Ukrainian people to Russia. However, the people knew their lives and future economic success was better inside the world's 3rd largest economy than it would be as a vassel state of the worlds 16th largest economy. Last Scottish independence referendum 2 million voted "no". The scots self-determined that. Last general election 1.4 million people voted SNP whilst more voted for others, yet Ms Sturgeon persists in refering to "the Scottish people" as a whole as being prevented from exercising their rights. They did, why wasn't she listening? I have travelled extensively in the USA. For decades politicians of both parties have been selling "freedom" because, although the US citizens for the last 100 plus years have always had it, because it costs the politicians nothing, they can easily stir up fear by suggesting it will be taken away. I believe the self-determination question is of similar standing. In the USA there are State laws and Federal laws. States have a lot of autonomy, yet, for instance, Texas cannot decide, on its own, to invade Mexico. It recognises its powers of self-determination are limited. If there is another Scottish referendum I will vote on economic grounds because, whatever I self-determined, will be twisted by the politicians into what they want once the polls have closed.  | |||
"Let's try to get back on track, original question was basically why is there not much of an appetite in England for independence from Scotland? " I don't have a strong opinion either way. For most people on England, I don't think it's a top issue. So I have no appetite for it either way. If I lived in Scotland, I don't know which way I would lean. Largely depends on how much of an economic hit it would create, how quickly Scotland could bounce back and what the prospects for joining the EU were. | |||
"Let's try to get back on track, original question was basically why is there not much of an appetite in England for independence from Scotland? " Has that question ever been put to the population on a national level or even any serious discussions? | |||
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"As a Scotsman and Scottish independence supporter I know all the reasons why I want my country to be independent. What baffles me is why a fair amount of English people think England subsidises Scotland to their detriment and that there's not a bigger push from the general public to either remove Scotland from the union or for England to leave the union? Why if we are such a drain are we being kept? Why foesnt England want independence?" Please could you explain why you want your country to be independant. I think at this point we can take "self-determination" as read. | |||
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"As a Scotsman and Scottish independence supporter I know all the reasons why I want my country to be independent. What baffles me is why a fair amount of English people think England subsidises Scotland to their detriment and that there's not a bigger push from the general public to either remove Scotland from the union or for England to leave the union? Why if we are such a drain are we being kept? Why foesnt England want independence?" I don't think most people mind the Barnett formula. The country has always cross-subsidised. I don't really see a benefit in "independence" as a small nation ends up not being able to have much influence in the world. Big companies are larger than small countries now. Inside a major trading block, where they will have to be, they will still be a relatively small voice. The world is too interconnected now and it is a pretence to think that a small nation state has that much control over its destiny. Even a large one has work to do. | |||
"As a Scotsman and Scottish independence supporter I know all the reasons why I want my country to be independent. What baffles me is why a fair amount of English people think England subsidises Scotland to their detriment and that there's not a bigger push from the general public to either remove Scotland from the union or for England to leave the union? Why if we are such a drain are we being kept? Why foesnt England want independence? I don't think most people mind the Barnett formula. The country has always cross-subsidised. I don't really see a benefit in "independence" as a small nation ends up not being able to have much influence in the world. Big companies are larger than small countries now. Inside a major trading block, where they will have to be, they will still be a relatively small voice. The world is too interconnected now and it is a pretence to think that a small nation state has that much control over its destiny. Even a large one has work to do." On what do you base these beliefs? Carried out any polling recently? | |||
"As a Scotsman and Scottish independence supporter I know all the reasons why I want my country to be independent. What baffles me is why a fair amount of English people think England subsidises Scotland to their detriment and that there's not a bigger push from the general public to either remove Scotland from the union or for England to leave the union? Why if we are such a drain are we being kept? Why foesnt England want independence? I don't think most people mind the Barnett formula. The country has always cross-subsidised. I don't really see a benefit in "independence" as a small nation ends up not being able to have much influence in the world. Big companies are larger than small countries now. Inside a major trading block, where they will have to be, they will still be a relatively small voice. The world is too interconnected now and it is a pretence to think that a small nation state has that much control over its destiny. Even a large one has work to do. On what do you base these beliefs? Carried out any polling recently?" Fair comment on people not minding the Barnett Formula. There's little data on it. It is all my opinion though many of the elements are verifiable facts. As I stated. | |||
"As a Scotsman and Scottish independence supporter I know all the reasons why I want my country to be independent. What baffles me is why a fair amount of English people think England subsidises Scotland to their detriment and that there's not a bigger push from the general public to either remove Scotland from the union or for England to leave the union? Why if we are such a drain are we being kept? Why foesnt England want independence? I don't think most people mind the Barnett formula. The country has always cross-subsidised. I don't really see a benefit in "independence" as a small nation ends up not being able to have much influence in the world. Big companies are larger than small countries now. Inside a major trading block, where they will have to be, they will still be a relatively small voice. The world is too interconnected now and it is a pretence to think that a small nation state has that much control over its destiny. Even a large one has work to do. On what do you base these beliefs? Carried out any polling recently? Fair comment on people not minding the Barnett Formula. There's little data on it. It is all my opinion though many of the elements are verifiable facts. As I stated." I believe the independence question should be decided on pragmatic grounds not emotional (e.g. "Take back control") ones like Brexit. It is time the SNP started talking about hard nosed economics related to independence not the lie that "Westminister hates us so we are better off alone". Before voting for Independence the Scottish voters should consider the question "what is in it for me?" Most reports indicate that Scotlands economy would shrink by 8 to 10% purely because of trade barriers. These reports do not however consider the effect of losing support from the rest of the UK nor the drain of Scotland's share of the UK debt burden. A reduction of trade will mean a reduction of tax revenue so the Tax rate will have to increase to fund the SNP's spending plans. Along with this Scotland will have to fund additional services like armed forces and International relationships. Unless and until we hear the real life benefits of independence, as they affect the ordinary Scottish person, we should all learn the lessons of Brexit and take what politicians seeking self aggrandisement say with a large pinch if salt. | |||
