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NHS must reform or die
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By *otMe66 OP Man
over a year ago
Terra Firma |
Starmer's message is clear, the NHS is not the envy of the world and it needs reform, a new sustainable system or it will die.
With both main parties now honing in on the NHS at a time NHS workers are striking, will this be a blow for the unions?
Personally I too believe the NHS is in desperate need of change, and agree it is not the envy of the world, it is crumbling in front of our eyes.
I'm also pleased SKS is putting his head above the parapet, I want more of this from him, this will push the government and he needs to be pushing harder on many things.
He could be making the right noise at the right time.
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I think this is a very bold move from Labour. People love the NHS but everyone knows it is failing and the Tories have too much baggage with it to be able to make meaningful changes.
If Starmer and Streeting can stop an internal civil war from happening then change is on its way. |
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But where to start.
First has to be linking social care to the NHS to stop bed blocking.
Then it gets hard as it's about cutting back.
Introduction of assisted suicide could be one. But lots of problems with that. But it is getting more popular round the world.
Decrease funding for IVF.
Decrease funding for cosmetic surgery. ETC
Guess if its not life thetaning you have to pay for it.
I have a lump and was told it was elective surgery, and I would not be put forward. I will be paying to get it sorted this year.
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By *otMe66 OP Man
over a year ago
Terra Firma |
"But where to start.
First has to be linking social care to the NHS to stop bed blocking.
Then it gets hard as it's about cutting back.
Introduction of assisted suicide could be one. But lots of problems with that. But it is getting more popular round the world.
Decrease funding for IVF.
Decrease funding for cosmetic surgery. ETC
Guess if its not life thetaning you have to pay for it.
I have a lump and was told it was elective surgery, and I would not be put forward. I will be paying to get it sorted this year.
"
Taking it off the pedestal and tackling the core issues must be a starting point in my opinion.
All services need to run efficiently and it is not simply managerial roles or government decisions that are breaking the NHS, they play a huge part but everything should be on the table and being scrutinised openly and fairly.
Your point of what they will or wont cover under the NHS is important too, we have changed as a people from the time of inception, and so as the treatments and symptoms we have now.
Nice to have = pay for it, is a starting point in terms of treatments for sure.
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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago
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"But where to start.
First has to be linking social care to the NHS to stop bed blocking.
Then it gets hard as it's about cutting back.
Introduction of assisted suicide could be one. But lots of problems with that. But it is getting more popular round the world.
Decrease funding for IVF.
Decrease funding for cosmetic surgery. ETC
Guess if its not life thetaning you have to pay for it.
I have a lump and was told it was elective surgery, and I would not be put forward. I will be paying to get it sorted this year.
Taking it off the pedestal and tackling the core issues must be a starting point in my opinion.
All services need to run efficiently and it is not simply managerial roles or government decisions that are breaking the NHS, they play a huge part but everything should be on the table and being scrutinised openly and fairly.
Your point of what they will or wont cover under the NHS is important too, we have changed as a people from the time of inception, and so as the treatments and symptoms we have now.
Nice to have = pay for it, is a starting point in terms of treatments for sure.
"
It was working well in 2010, however I agree things need to change, getting rid of the Tories will be a huge help  |
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By *otMe66 OP Man
over a year ago
Terra Firma |
"I think this is a very bold move from Labour. People love the NHS but everyone knows it is failing and the Tories have too much baggage with it to be able to make meaningful changes.
If Starmer and Streeting can stop an internal civil war from happening then change is on its way."
I was impressed with Starmer on kuenssberg today. I felt he had a new confidence, he sounded in control of his party, made a refreshing change. |
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I know that most of you don't like the Daily Mail but an interesting article from 32 years ago was reprinted today.
To be fair it could almost have been written yesterday.
https://www.dailymail.co.uk/debate/article-11635725/This-article-NHS-written-32-years-ago-PAUL-JOHNSON-died-week-rings-true.html |
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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago
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"I know that most of you don't like the Daily Mail but an interesting article from 32 years ago was reprinted today.
To be fair it could almost have been written yesterday.
https://www.dailymail.co.uk/debate/article-11635725/This-article-NHS-written-32-years-ago-PAUL-JOHNSON-died-week-rings-true.html"
The NHS was working well in 2010 |
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"I know that most of you don't like the Daily Mail but an interesting article from 32 years ago was reprinted today.
To be fair it could almost have been written yesterday.
https://www.dailymail.co.uk/debate/article-11635725/This-article-NHS-written-32-years-ago-PAUL-JOHNSON-died-week-rings-true.html"
Yes, that's pretty funny, people still try to complain about and blame a party that's not in power. |
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"Starmer's message is clear, the NHS is not the envy of the world and it needs reform, a new sustainable system or it will die.
With both main parties now honing in on the NHS at a time NHS workers are striking, will this be a blow for the unions?
Personally I too believe the NHS is in desperate need of change, and agree it is not the envy of the world, it is crumbling in front of our eyes.
I'm also pleased SKS is putting his head above the parapet, I want more of this from him, this will push the government and he needs to be pushing harder on many things.
He could be making the right noise at the right time.
"
Dentist and optical where all free at one point not that I remember that.
So things like IVF could go to privet clinics even if it was part supported by NHS but free I don't know. I now lots will say every one has the right to a family. But tell that to some one how just can't.
Medical advance is good but is it now to good and to expensive.
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If we are going to have a health service that is focussed on people’s real health (which is what I think Wes Streeting is saying) then political shibboleths from all over the spectrum will have to be junked.
We are going to have to remove a lot of the market mechanisms that have just shown they don’t work. That will infuriate the right. Ways of working will need to be dramatically altered. The unions are going to have apoplexy. Going to be a noisy few years!
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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago
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Totally agree something needs to change to many management and contracts should be reviewed every year to many big companies supplying expensive but poor quality equipment and help other wise I think it will be around for my death. |
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By *eroy1000Man
over a year ago
milton keynes |
"Starmer's message is clear, the NHS is not the envy of the world and it needs reform, a new sustainable system or it will die.
With both main parties now honing in on the NHS at a time NHS workers are striking, will this be a blow for the unions?
Personally I too believe the NHS is in desperate need of change, and agree it is not the envy of the world, it is crumbling in front of our eyes.
I'm also pleased SKS is putting his head above the parapet, I want more of this from him, this will push the government and he needs to be pushing harder on many things.
He could be making the right noise at the right time.
"
I was more expecting to see a headline like this from the Tories as a prelude to further privatisation. I have not seen it yet but hope he will explain in more detail what he means and what changes will happen. Getting the whole party on board will be a challenge but when they are so close to being in government they may tow the line for now |
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Oh the irony that in a post Brexit world we are now looking at an insurance based healthcare system such as the Germans or Dutch use! Who would have thought that taking back control would cost us all so dearly!
Btw….having forked out over £1000 for a root canal treatment last year because my NHS dentist retired and it is now impossible to find an NHS dentist in Bristol I do take it personally that the Tory government have brought the NHS to a position where people are leaving it faster than they are being replaced through austerity and bloody minded ideology |
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"Oh the irony that in a post Brexit world we are now looking at an insurance based healthcare system such as the Germans or Dutch use! Who would have thought that taking back control would cost us all so dearly!
Btw….having forked out over £1000 for a root canal treatment last year because my NHS dentist retired and it is now impossible to find an NHS dentist in Bristol I do take it personally that the Tory government have brought the NHS to a position where people are leaving it faster than they are being replaced through austerity and bloody minded ideology"
I had root canal done in Turkey, £110. |
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"Oh the irony that in a post Brexit world we are now looking at an insurance based healthcare system such as the Germans or Dutch use! Who would have thought that taking back control would cost us all so dearly!
Btw….having forked out over £1000 for a root canal treatment last year because my NHS dentist retired and it is now impossible to find an NHS dentist in Bristol I do take it personally that the Tory government have brought the NHS to a position where people are leaving it faster than they are being replaced through austerity and bloody minded ideology
I had root canal done in Turkey, £110. "
But what was the cost over all or is that with flights, hotels, air port parking, insurance, expenses, time off work. ?? |
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"I know that most of you don't like the Daily Mail but an interesting article from 32 years ago was reprinted today.
To be fair it could almost have been written yesterday.
https://www.dailymail.co.uk/debate/article-11635725/This-article-NHS-written-32-years-ago-PAUL-JOHNSON-died-week-rings-true.html
The NHS was working well in 2010 "
No it wasn't. Maybe a tad better than (post Covid) now but it's been fucked for decades.
The Tories haven't covered themselves in glory but Labour are just as culpable.
In fact as the so called (mythical) defenders of the NHS they are the worst of the lot.
Labour don't want good health care they want a job creation scheme for their client state.
Rant and rave as much as you like but it's true.
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By *irldnCouple
over a year ago
Brighton |
The NHS does need reform and that needs to start with Govt short term focused interference. It will take a decade to sort it and actually start seeing benefits. Trouble is that any longterm strategy will get stopped if the Govt changes.
Some of the priorities include:
1) Address the recruitment and retention (R&R) issues by improving salary and remuneration package and reinstating training bursary.
2) As R&R improves you can start to reduce the reliance on very expensive agency staff.
3) Start the process of removing the private sector from NHS service provision and also facilities management.
4) Have a debate on the types of medical intervention that should be provided by the NHS, essential/life saving or extending vs elective.
5) Anyone who is not a British tax payer MUST have travel/medical insurance when in the UK to receive treatment of any kind.
6) Integrated Health and Social care. |
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"I know that most of you don't like the Daily Mail but an interesting article from 32 years ago was reprinted today.
To be fair it could almost have been written yesterday.
https://www.dailymail.co.uk/debate/article-11635725/This-article-NHS-written-32-years-ago-PAUL-JOHNSON-died-week-rings-true.html
Yes, that's pretty funny, people still try to complain about and blame a party that's not in power. "
But the article was written 32 years ago. Surely Blair and Brown could have sorted it. Oh! Wait a minute, they did. PFI. Enough said. |
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"I know that most of you don't like the Daily Mail but an interesting article from 32 years ago was reprinted today.
To be fair it could almost have been written yesterday.
https://www.dailymail.co.uk/debate/article-11635725/This-article-NHS-written-32-years-ago-PAUL-JOHNSON-died-week-rings-true.html
The NHS was working well in 2010
No it wasn't. Maybe a tad better than (post Covid) now but it's been fucked for decades.
The Tories haven't covered themselves in glory but Labour are just as culpable.
In fact as the so called (mythical) defenders of the NHS they are the worst of the lot.
Labour don't want good health care they want a job creation scheme for their client state.
Rant and rave as much as you like but it's true.
"
Err no it’s not  |
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By *irldnCouple
over a year ago
Brighton |
"I know that most of you don't like the Daily Mail but an interesting article from 32 years ago was reprinted today.
To be fair it could almost have been written yesterday.
https://www.dailymail.co.uk/debate/article-11635725/This-article-NHS-written-32-years-ago-PAUL-JOHNSON-died-week-rings-true.html
The NHS was working well in 2010
No it wasn't. Maybe a tad better than (post Covid) now but it's been fucked for decades.
The Tories haven't covered themselves in glory but Labour are just as culpable.
In fact as the so called (mythical) defenders of the NHS they are the worst of the lot.
Labour don't want good health care they want a job creation scheme for their client state.
Rant and rave as much as you like but it's true.
"
Not true...
“As success in reducing long waits in the early part of this century continued, the Labour government raised the stakes by announcing a new, more comprehensive target in 2005 that no more than 10% of patients should wait longer than 18 weeks from referral by a GP to treatment in hospital. This meant another change in waiting list data in 2007 to better capture what would now become a more overarching measure of the complete waiting list/time experience.
Within two years – by 2009 – the total waiting list had nearly halved to 2.3 million. But from around 2012 the waiting list started to rise, nearly doubling to 4.34 million by February 2020.” |
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"The NHS does need reform and that needs to start with Govt short term focused interference. It will take a decade to sort it and actually start seeing benefits. Trouble is that any longterm strategy will get stopped if the Govt changes.
Some of the priorities include:
1) Address the recruitment and retention (R&R) issues by improving salary and remuneration package and reinstating training bursary.
2) As R&R improves you can start to reduce the reliance on very expensive agency staff.
3) Start the process of removing the private sector from NHS service provision and also facilities management.
4) Have a debate on the types of medical intervention that should be provided by the NHS, essential/life saving or extending vs elective.
5) Anyone who is not a British tax payer MUST have travel/medical insurance when in the UK to receive treatment of any kind.
6) Integrated Health and Social care."
Very well put
Would you like me go as far as free Traning linked to a contract of say 10 years once qualified or a percentage of the cost has to be payed back. |
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By *irldnCouple
over a year ago
Brighton |
"The NHS does need reform and that needs to start with Govt short term focused interference. It will take a decade to sort it and actually start seeing benefits. Trouble is that any longterm strategy will get stopped if the Govt changes.
Some of the priorities include:
1) Address the recruitment and retention (R&R) issues by improving salary and remuneration package and reinstating training bursary.
2) As R&R improves you can start to reduce the reliance on very expensive agency staff.
3) Start the process of removing the private sector from NHS service provision and also facilities management.
4) Have a debate on the types of medical intervention that should be provided by the NHS, essential/life saving or extending vs elective.
5) Anyone who is not a British tax payer MUST have travel/medical insurance when in the UK to receive treatment of any kind.
6) Integrated Health and Social care.
Very well put
Would you like me go as far as free Traning linked to a contract of say 10 years once qualified or a percentage of the cost has to be payed back."
Totally agree. That was point of the bursary but yes, a contractual lock in for a given period to ensure UK benefits from the free training provided (or pay back the outstanding balance). |
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"5) Anyone who is not a British tax payer MUST have travel/medical insurance when in the UK to receive treatment of any kind."
When you say "British tax payer", do you mean income tax?
What will happen to all the poor people that don't earn enough to pay income tax, and can't afford the insurance? |
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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago
|
"I know that most of you don't like the Daily Mail but an interesting article from 32 years ago was reprinted today.
To be fair it could almost have been written yesterday.
https://www.dailymail.co.uk/debate/article-11635725/This-article-NHS-written-32-years-ago-PAUL-JOHNSON-died-week-rings-true.html
The NHS was working well in 2010
No it wasn't. Maybe a tad better than (post Covid) now but it's been fucked for decades.
The Tories haven't covered themselves in glory but Labour are just as culpable.
In fact as the so called (mythical) defenders of the NHS they are the worst of the lot.
Labour don't want good health care they want a job creation scheme for their client state.
Rant and rave as much as you like but it's true.
"
Wrong, it was far better than post Covid |
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By *ackal1Couple
over a year ago
Manchester |
"The NHS does need reform and that needs to start with Govt short term focused interference. It will take a decade to sort it and actually start seeing benefits. Trouble is that any longterm strategy will get stopped if the Govt changes.
Some of the priorities include:
1) Address the recruitment and retention (R&R) issues by improving salary and remuneration package and reinstating training bursary.
2) As R&R improves you can start to reduce the reliance on very expensive agency staff.
3) Start the process of removing the private sector from NHS service provision and also facilities management.
4) Have a debate on the types of medical intervention that should be provided by the NHS, essential/life saving or extending vs elective.
5) Anyone who is not a British tax payer MUST have travel/medical insurance when in the UK to receive treatment of any kind.
6) Integrated Health and Social care."
Very good points
I’d also add cull the senior level as it’s grossly over manned. Directors and non executive directors by the thousands whose pensions alone are a massive drain never mind the salaries.
No issue with high pay but less of them and contributory pensions mandatory please.
The pension liability is obscene at a senior level but unfortunately is repeated across the civil service.
Appalling pay for carers and cleaners but gravy train excess at the top.
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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago
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Culling the bloated management structure is where we'd start. Then reviews of the none medical skilled workforce. Not necessarily a culling there, but certainly a little restructuring and retraining. |
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The reason the NHS is in such dire straits is the poor management of it, and as a state run the system the management is the state
So politicians (the individual's running the state) have the audacity to blame the NHS for the state's failure to run it
If you're looking for someone to blame it's always a fucking politician |
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"I know that most of you don't like the Daily Mail but an interesting article from 32 years ago was reprinted today.
To be fair it could almost have been written yesterday.
https://www.dailymail.co.uk/debate/article-11635725/This-article-NHS-written-32-years-ago-PAUL-JOHNSON-died-week-rings-true.html
The NHS was working well in 2010
No it wasn't. Maybe a tad better than (post Covid) now but it's been fucked for decades.
The Tories haven't covered themselves in glory but Labour are just as culpable.
In fact as the so called (mythical) defenders of the NHS they are the worst of the lot.
Labour don't want good health care they want a job creation scheme for their client state.
Rant and rave as much as you like but it's true.
Not true...
“As success in reducing long waits in the early part of this century continued, the Labour government raised the stakes by announcing a new, more comprehensive target in 2005 that no more than 10% of patients should wait longer than 18 weeks from referral by a GP to treatment in hospital. This meant another change in waiting list data in 2007 to better capture what would now become a more overarching measure of the complete waiting list/time experience.
Within two years – by 2009 – the total waiting list had nearly halved to 2.3 million. But from around 2012 the waiting list started to rise, nearly doubling to 4.34 million by February 2020.”"
Wasn't this achieved by Labour using private health companies? |
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By *amantMan
over a year ago
Alnmouth |
New Labour literally delivered the shortest waiting times in history and there's an old episode of BBCQT in which the audience moan at the then PM Tony Blair about not being able to book an appointment in the future because they HAD to be seen that day or the next day. Can you imagine that now? How awful. Everytime the Tories get their hands on the NHS it gets worse, only this time they've really fucked it. When we had a young population, it wasn't as drastically awful but as the age of the population increases, we have fewer and fewer resources to solve the issues of the day. Never forget, never forgive. |
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"New Labour literally delivered the shortest waiting times in history and there's an old episode of BBCQT in which the audience moan at the then PM Tony Blair about not being able to book an appointment in the future because they HAD to be seen that day or the next day. Can you imagine that now? How awful. Everytime the Tories get their hands on the NHS it gets worse, only this time they've really fucked it. When we had a young population, it wasn't as drastically awful but as the age of the population increases, we have fewer and fewer resources to solve the issues of the day. Never forget, never forgive. "
May be the age of the population is part of the problem more and more medical intervention means more are living longer and needing more and more treatment.
I now people on there 3rd hips |
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"New Labour literally delivered the shortest waiting times in history and there's an old episode of BBCQT in which the audience moan at the then PM Tony Blair about not being able to book an appointment in the future because they HAD to be seen that day or the next day. Can you imagine that now? How awful. Everytime the Tories get their hands on the NHS it gets worse, only this time they've really fucked it. When we had a young population, it wasn't as drastically awful but as the age of the population increases, we have fewer and fewer resources to solve the issues of the day. Never forget, never forgive. "
It’s worth listening to David Oliver ( medical consultant ) on the Byline times podcast. He gives a brilliant account of why the NHS is where it is and interestingly there are many segments of the NHS that are not tempting to privatise as they are probably not going to be that profitable.
In real terms spending has been greatly reduced under the Tories and another huge issue is recruitment- or lack there of across all sectors of the health system.
Relative to other OECD countries, spending on health has greatly reduced over the past 15 years.
Well worth a listen. |
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