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Brexit ….
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"A benefit that I only found out about recently when returning from holiday, is that duty free allowances have increased." They have been increased for all destinations. However, duty free purchases with EU travel are a benefit, even if somewhat minor. | |||
"So ….there used to be loads of people on here who thought it was all going to be great -haven’t heard a peep from anyone recently -still trying to spot ONE single benefit of it-anyone got anything…? …….Anyone…….? " To me the biggest benefits is it still passes off the remoaners on here. We are no longer in the EU so get over it. | |||
"So ….there used to be loads of people on here who thought it was all going to be great -haven’t heard a peep from anyone recently -still trying to spot ONE single benefit of it-anyone got anything…? …….Anyone…….? To me the biggest benefits is it still passes off the remoaners on here. We are no longer in the EU so get over it. "Why aren't you pissed off with the brexit clusterfuck? | |||
"So ….there used to be loads of people on here who thought it was all going to be great -haven’t heard a peep from anyone recently -still trying to spot ONE single benefit of it-anyone got anything…? …….Anyone…….? To me the biggest benefits is it still passes off the remoaners on here. We are no longer in the EU so get over it. "Is that it? You voted for Brexit to piss people off , sad to see  | |||
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"So ….there used to be loads of people on here who thought it was all going to be great -haven’t heard a peep from anyone recently -still trying to spot ONE single benefit of it-anyone got anything…? …….Anyone…….? To me the biggest benefits is it still passes off the remoaners on here. We are no longer in the EU so get over it.
Is that it? You voted for Brexit to piss people off , sad to see
Try the green arrow"Ah, imagine voting for something that you know will negatively impact the country just because it pisses a few people off, what a sad life | |||
"So ….there used to be loads of people on here who thought it was all going to be great -haven’t heard a peep from anyone recently -still trying to spot ONE single benefit of it-anyone got anything…? …….Anyone…….? To me the biggest benefits is it still passes off the remoaners on here. We are no longer in the EU so get over it.
Is that it? You voted for Brexit to piss people off , sad to see
Try the green arrow
Ah, imagine voting for something that you know will negatively impact the country just because it pisses a few people off, what a sad life "Well considering I never said that on my post it just goes to prove some people on here just make things up to suit their own narrative. | |||
"So ….there used to be loads of people on here who thought it was all going to be great -haven’t heard a peep from anyone recently -still trying to spot ONE single benefit of it-anyone got anything…? …….Anyone…….? To me the biggest benefits is it still passes off the remoaners on here. We are no longer in the EU so get over it.
Is that it? You voted for Brexit to piss people off , sad to see
Try the green arrow
Ah, imagine voting for something that you know will negatively impact the country just because it pisses a few people off, what a sad life
Well considering I never said that on my post it just goes to prove some people on here just make things up to suit their own narrative. "So you didn't vote for brexit? Why aren't you pissed off about leaving the EU? | |||
"So ….there used to be loads of people on here who thought it was all going to be great -haven’t heard a peep from anyone recently -still trying to spot ONE single benefit of it-anyone got anything…? …….Anyone…….? To me the biggest benefits is it still passes off the remoaners on here. We are no longer in the EU so get over it.
Is that it? You voted for Brexit to piss people off , sad to see
Try the green arrow
Ah, imagine voting for something that you know will negatively impact the country just because it pisses a few people off, what a sad life
Well considering I never said that on my post it just goes to prove some people on here just make things up to suit their own narrative. "You didn’t vote for Brexit but you’re happy it happened because it pissed people off? That is even worse | |||
"A benefit that I only found out about recently when returning from holiday, is that duty free allowances have increased." good to no what are they now | |||
"A benefit that I only found out about recently when returning from holiday, is that duty free allowances have increased. good to no what are they now " That’s a fab benefit - as somebody who has been stuck in customs and security queues because i couldn’t use the EU channels 6 times in the last two weeks that’s really good to know…. | |||
"A benefit that I only found out about recently when returning from holiday, is that duty free allowances have increased. good to no what are they now That’s a fab benefit - as somebody who has been stuck in customs and security queues because i couldn’t use the EU channels 6 times in the last two weeks that’s really good to know…." I've travelled to several countries over the last few months...not been in a queue for more than a few minutes in either direction. Tbh, not noticed any difference between "then and now". | |||
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"Honestly what's the point? Why keep bringing up Brexit rubbing your hands together with smug self satisfaction saying " told you so" Is this going to change anything?? If labour get in are they going to give the nation a second chance to vote? And even if that happens are the EU going to welcome us back open arms and a warm embrace? No. Unless you can persuade them to believe that the majority voted based on lies and that we where misled. So starting inflammatory threads such as this is nothing more than trying to start an argument. To use an old phrase. "No point crying over spilt milk"" I've been trying to day exactly this on another thread but some people will just never understand. It does nothing but keep the country divided  | |||
"Honestly what's the point? Why keep bringing up Brexit rubbing your hands together with smug self satisfaction saying " told you so" Is this going to change anything?? If labour get in are they going to give the nation a second chance to vote? And even if that happens are the EU going to welcome us back open arms and a warm embrace? No. Unless you can persuade them to believe that the majority voted based on lies and that we where misled. So starting inflammatory threads such as this is nothing more than trying to start an argument. To use an old phrase. "No point crying over spilt milk"" How is the country supposed to move forward when some people still think brexit is a good idea? The refusal of any politicians to hold their hands up and be honest about the situation is fucking ridiculous. Besides, if people voted to make us all poorer and to lose our freedom of movement, they should be able to take some banter on a swingers website. | |||
"Honestly what's the point? Why keep bringing up Brexit rubbing your hands together with smug self satisfaction saying " told you so" Is this going to change anything?? If labour get in are they going to give the nation a second chance to vote? And even if that happens are the EU going to welcome us back open arms and a warm embrace? No. Unless you can persuade them to believe that the majority voted based on lies and that we where misled. So starting inflammatory threads such as this is nothing more than trying to start an argument. To use an old phrase. "No point crying over spilt milk" I've been trying to day exactly this on another thread but some people will just never understand. It does nothing but keep the country divided "If someone stole your wallet would you be cool about it. No point in creating division between you and the person who stole your money. | |||
"Honestly what's the point? Why keep bringing up Brexit rubbing your hands together with smug self satisfaction saying " told you so" Is this going to change anything?? If labour get in are they going to give the nation a second chance to vote? And even if that happens are the EU going to welcome us back open arms and a warm embrace? No. Unless you can persuade them to believe that the majority voted based on lies and that we where misled. So starting inflammatory threads such as this is nothing more than trying to start an argument. To use an old phrase. "No point crying over spilt milk" I've been trying to day exactly this on another thread but some people will just never understand. It does nothing but keep the country divided
If someone stole your wallet would you be cool about it. No point in creating division between you and the person who stole your money."When your hands and tied in seeking any form of resolution then what is the point in sulking about it. Im not sure about you but when that's the case for me, whether I like it or not, I move on, I'm not one to continue to allow it to affect my future. Ps, note I said when my hands are tied. If I could do something about it, of course I'd try and resolve it. Division is bollocks though, i don't believe division does anyone any good. | |||
"Honestly what's the point? Why keep bringing up Brexit rubbing your hands together with smug self satisfaction saying " told you so" Is this going to change anything?? If labour get in are they going to give the nation a second chance to vote? And even if that happens are the EU going to welcome us back open arms and a warm embrace? No. Unless you can persuade them to believe that the majority voted based on lies and that we where misled. So starting inflammatory threads such as this is nothing more than trying to start an argument. To use an old phrase. "No point crying over spilt milk" I've been trying to day exactly this on another thread but some people will just never understand. It does nothing but keep the country divided
If someone stole your wallet would you be cool about it. No point in creating division between you and the person who stole your money.
When your hands and tied in seeking any form of resolution then what is the point in sulking about it.
Im not sure about you but when that's the case for me, whether I like it or not, I move on, I'm not one to continue to allow it to affect my future.
Ps, note I said when my hands are tied. If I could do something about it, of course I'd try and resolve it. Division is bollocks though, i don't believe division does anyone any good."You make a good point but just as anger and dissatisfaction with the UK led to vote Leave winning, so too now there is equal anger and dissatisfaction at how things are working out. A lot of people are still angry at this huge act of self harm. I doubt many can let go yet. And generally the only ones telling them to let it go are those who voted Leave and caused this mess in the first place. Those people don’t want to be reminded that, in the majority of people’s minds now, they made a mistake and got it wrong. I fear brexit related arguments will run for years. But it is still nice to see a great ass in an avatar  | |||
"Honestly what's the point? Why keep bringing up Brexit rubbing your hands together with smug self satisfaction saying " told you so" Is this going to change anything?? If labour get in are they going to give the nation a second chance to vote? And even if that happens are the EU going to welcome us back open arms and a warm embrace? No. Unless you can persuade them to believe that the majority voted based on lies and that we where misled. So starting inflammatory threads such as this is nothing more than trying to start an argument. To use an old phrase. "No point crying over spilt milk" I've been trying to day exactly this on another thread but some people will just never understand. It does nothing but keep the country divided
If someone stole your wallet would you be cool about it. No point in creating division between you and the person who stole your money.
When your hands and tied in seeking any form of resolution then what is the point in sulking about it.
Im not sure about you but when that's the case for me, whether I like it or not, I move on, I'm not one to continue to allow it to affect my future.
Ps, note I said when my hands are tied. If I could do something about it, of course I'd try and resolve it. Division is bollocks though, i don't believe division does anyone any good.
You make a good point but just as anger and dissatisfaction with the UK led to vote Leave winning, so too now there is equal anger and dissatisfaction at how things are working out. A lot of people are still angry at this huge act of self harm. I doubt many can let go yet. And generally the only ones telling them to let it go are those who voted Leave and caused this mess in the first place. Those people don’t want to be reminded that, in the majority of people’s minds now, they made a mistake and got it wrong.
I fear brexit related arguments will run for years.
But it is still nice to see a great ass in an avatar "Well you put it much better than some of the others. I get that people are angry, I'm with them. What I don't understand is why they feel the need to continually try to divide us by pointing everything out, maybe its their delivery method that I don't get. I just don't see that making these posts everyday does anything else, we, as a populace can't change what is now happening so arguing amongst ourselves achieves nothing. I'll pass on your approval of the wife's ass  | |||
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"Honestly what's the point? Why keep bringing up Brexit rubbing your hands together with smug self satisfaction saying " told you so" Is this going to change anything?? If labour get in are they going to give the nation a second chance to vote? And even if that happens are the EU going to welcome us back open arms and a warm embrace? No. Unless you can persuade them to believe that the majority voted based on lies and that we where misled. So starting inflammatory threads such as this is nothing more than trying to start an argument. To use an old phrase. "No point crying over spilt milk" I've been trying to day exactly this on another thread but some people will just never understand. It does nothing but keep the country divided
If someone stole your wallet would you be cool about it. No point in creating division between you and the person who stole your money.
When your hands and tied in seeking any form of resolution then what is the point in sulking about it.
Im not sure about you but when that's the case for me, whether I like it or not, I move on, I'm not one to continue to allow it to affect my future.
Ps, note I said when my hands are tied. If I could do something about it, of course I'd try and resolve it. Division is bollocks though, i don't believe division does anyone any good.
You make a good point but just as anger and dissatisfaction with the UK led to vote Leave winning, so too now there is equal anger and dissatisfaction at how things are working out. A lot of people are still angry at this huge act of self harm. I doubt many can let go yet. And generally the only ones telling them to let it go are those who voted Leave and caused this mess in the first place. Those people don’t want to be reminded that, in the majority of people’s minds now, they made a mistake and got it wrong.
I fear brexit related arguments will run for years.
But it is still nice to see a great ass in an avatar
Well you put it much better than some of the others. I get that people are angry, I'm with them. What I don't understand is why they feel the need to continually try to divide us by pointing everything out, maybe its their delivery method that I don't get.
I just don't see that making these posts everyday does anything else, we, as a populace can't change what is now happening so arguing amongst ourselves achieves nothing.
I'll pass on your approval of the wife's ass "I think it is admirable to try and bring harmony but I doubt that will be possible for some time yet. It is too raw, recent, and the negative impact is being felt right now. People are suffering and it has been made a lot worse by brexit. As another poster just said, ideally we would all work together to make the best of a bad situation, but again there are deep wounds due to the vociferous and spiteful nature of the debate for many years. Name calling on both sides. Implication that people who disagreed with you were idiots/thick. As a remain voter I cringed at the approach taken by many (inc myself from time-to-time). There was an air of superiority coming from many in the Remain camp that triggered and entrenched many in the Leave camp. The whole period is a dark time for our society with division sowed, exploited and left to fester. Sad times! | |||
"Honestly what's the point? Why keep bringing up Brexit rubbing your hands together with smug self satisfaction saying " told you so" Is this going to change anything?? If labour get in are they going to give the nation a second chance to vote? And even if that happens are the EU going to welcome us back open arms and a warm embrace? No. Unless you can persuade them to believe that the majority voted based on lies and that we where misled. So starting inflammatory threads such as this is nothing more than trying to start an argument. To use an old phrase. "No point crying over spilt milk"" Who's "rubbing their hands together" or "self-satisfied"? What are the words that communicate that to you? Have the people in power and continuing to advocate Brexit acknowledging any negatives with it? Who expects the EU to "welcome us back"? We have screwed that. At best we will get EEA membership on the same terms as everyone else does. However, right now, we are still picking fights over the Northern Ireland Accord. Why do you think that the polling on Brexit has shifted so much the other way now? How do you propose this is approached to make a bigger change? Don't mention the problems? Whisper them? Don't upset the poor, fragile people who say they are delighted that "remoaners" are upset or say that they "lost and should get over it"? Please just explain how this magical process of conversion without confronting the reality works. | |||
"Honestly what's the point? Why keep bringing up Brexit rubbing your hands together with smug self satisfaction saying " told you so" Is this going to change anything?? If labour get in are they going to give the nation a second chance to vote? And even if that happens are the EU going to welcome us back open arms and a warm embrace? No. Unless you can persuade them to believe that the majority voted based on lies and that we where misled. So starting inflammatory threads such as this is nothing more than trying to start an argument. To use an old phrase. "No point crying over spilt milk" I've been trying to day exactly this on another thread but some people will just never understand. It does nothing but keep the country divided
If someone stole your wallet would you be cool about it. No point in creating division between you and the person who stole your money.
When your hands and tied in seeking any form of resolution then what is the point in sulking about it.
Im not sure about you but when that's the case for me, whether I like it or not, I move on, I'm not one to continue to allow it to affect my future.
Ps, note I said when my hands are tied. If I could do something about it, of course I'd try and resolve it. Division is bollocks though, i don't believe division does anyone any good."How can we move on when people still think brexit is a good idea and out politicians are scared to face reality and have to pretend they can polish the turd? | |||
"Honestly what's the point? Why keep bringing up Brexit rubbing your hands together with smug self satisfaction saying " told you so" Is this going to change anything?? If labour get in are they going to give the nation a second chance to vote? And even if that happens are the EU going to welcome us back open arms and a warm embrace? No. Unless you can persuade them to believe that the majority voted based on lies and that we where misled. So starting inflammatory threads such as this is nothing more than trying to start an argument. To use an old phrase. "No point crying over spilt milk" I've been trying to day exactly this on another thread but some people will just never understand. It does nothing but keep the country divided
If someone stole your wallet would you be cool about it. No point in creating division between you and the person who stole your money.
When your hands and tied in seeking any form of resolution then what is the point in sulking about it.
Im not sure about you but when that's the case for me, whether I like it or not, I move on, I'm not one to continue to allow it to affect my future.
Ps, note I said when my hands are tied. If I could do something about it, of course I'd try and resolve it. Division is bollocks though, i don't believe division does anyone any good.
You make a good point but just as anger and dissatisfaction with the UK led to vote Leave winning, so too now there is equal anger and dissatisfaction at how things are working out. A lot of people are still angry at this huge act of self harm. I doubt many can let go yet. And generally the only ones telling them to let it go are those who voted Leave and caused this mess in the first place. Those people don’t want to be reminded that, in the majority of people’s minds now, they made a mistake and got it wrong.
I fear brexit related arguments will run for years.
But it is still nice to see a great ass in an avatar
Well you put it much better than some of the others. I get that people are angry, I'm with them. What I don't understand is why they feel the need to continually try to divide us by pointing everything out, maybe its their delivery method that I don't get.
I just don't see that making these posts everyday does anything else, we, as a populace can't change what is now happening so arguing amongst ourselves achieves nothing.
I'll pass on your approval of the wife's ass "We can't change anything on here. If people are allowed to vote the country down the toilet, surely were allowed to speak up about it. | |||
"Honestly what's the point? Why keep bringing up Brexit rubbing your hands together with smug self satisfaction saying " told you so" Is this going to change anything?? If labour get in are they going to give the nation a second chance to vote? And even if that happens are the EU going to welcome us back open arms and a warm embrace? No. Unless you can persuade them to believe that the majority voted based on lies and that we where misled. So starting inflammatory threads such as this is nothing more than trying to start an argument. To use an old phrase. "No point crying over spilt milk" I've been trying to day exactly this on another thread but some people will just never understand. It does nothing but keep the country divided
If someone stole your wallet would you be cool about it. No point in creating division between you and the person who stole your money.
When your hands and tied in seeking any form of resolution then what is the point in sulking about it.
Im not sure about you but when that's the case for me, whether I like it or not, I move on, I'm not one to continue to allow it to affect my future.
Ps, note I said when my hands are tied. If I could do something about it, of course I'd try and resolve it. Division is bollocks though, i don't believe division does anyone any good.
You make a good point but just as anger and dissatisfaction with the UK led to vote Leave winning, so too now there is equal anger and dissatisfaction at how things are working out. A lot of people are still angry at this huge act of self harm. I doubt many can let go yet. And generally the only ones telling them to let it go are those who voted Leave and caused this mess in the first place. Those people don’t want to be reminded that, in the majority of people’s minds now, they made a mistake and got it wrong.
I fear brexit related arguments will run for years.
But it is still nice to see a great ass in an avatar
Well you put it much better than some of the others. I get that people are angry, I'm with them. What I don't understand is why they feel the need to continually try to divide us by pointing everything out, maybe its their delivery method that I don't get.
I just don't see that making these posts everyday does anything else, we, as a populace can't change what is now happening so arguing amongst ourselves achieves nothing.
I'll pass on your approval of the wife's ass
I think it is admirable to try and bring harmony but I doubt that will be possible for some time yet. It is too raw, recent, and the negative impact is being felt right now. People are suffering and it has been made a lot worse by brexit.
As another poster just said, ideally we would all work together to make the best of a bad situation, but again there are deep wounds due to the vociferous and spiteful nature of the debate for many years. Name calling on both sides. Implication that people who disagreed with you were idiots/thick.
As a remain voter I cringed at the approach taken by many (inc myself from time-to-time). There was an air of superiority coming from many in the Remain camp that triggered and entrenched many in the Leave camp.
The whole period is a dark time for our society with division sowed, exploited and left to fester.
Sad times!"The air of superiority is still there. Maybe that's what bothers me. It cant just be me that can't stand those people. Maybe that's what triggers me. | |||
"Honestly what's the point? Why keep bringing up Brexit rubbing your hands together with smug self satisfaction saying " told you so" Is this going to change anything?? If labour get in are they going to give the nation a second chance to vote? And even if that happens are the EU going to welcome us back open arms and a warm embrace? No. Unless you can persuade them to believe that the majority voted based on lies and that we where misled. So starting inflammatory threads such as this is nothing more than trying to start an argument. To use an old phrase. "No point crying over spilt milk" I've been trying to day exactly this on another thread but some people will just never understand. It does nothing but keep the country divided "Have the people in power and continuing to advocate Brexit acknowledging any negatives with it? Who expects the EU to "welcome us back"? We have screwed that. At best we will get EEA membership on the same terms as everyone else does. However, right now, we are still picking fights over the Northern Ireland Accord. Why do you think that the polling on Brexit has shifted so much the other way now? How do you propose this is approached to make a bigger change? Don't mention the problems? Whisper them? Don't upset the poor, fragile people who say they are delighted that "remoaners" are upset or say that they "lost and should get over it"? I know that you are going to write again that that is not what you want. So what is? So, what do we do? Bring us together. Give us the strategy for this without upsetting the apparent "winners" who are still making the decisions? | |||
"Honestly what's the point? Why keep bringing up Brexit rubbing your hands together with smug self satisfaction saying " told you so" Is this going to change anything?? If labour get in are they going to give the nation a second chance to vote? And even if that happens are the EU going to welcome us back open arms and a warm embrace? No. Unless you can persuade them to believe that the majority voted based on lies and that we where misled. So starting inflammatory threads such as this is nothing more than trying to start an argument. To use an old phrase. "No point crying over spilt milk" I've been trying to day exactly this on another thread but some people will just never understand. It does nothing but keep the country divided
If someone stole your wallet would you be cool about it. No point in creating division between you and the person who stole your money.
When your hands and tied in seeking any form of resolution then what is the point in sulking about it.
Im not sure about you but when that's the case for me, whether I like it or not, I move on, I'm not one to continue to allow it to affect my future.
Ps, note I said when my hands are tied. If I could do something about it, of course I'd try and resolve it. Division is bollocks though, i don't believe division does anyone any good.
You make a good point but just as anger and dissatisfaction with the UK led to vote Leave winning, so too now there is equal anger and dissatisfaction at how things are working out. A lot of people are still angry at this huge act of self harm. I doubt many can let go yet. And generally the only ones telling them to let it go are those who voted Leave and caused this mess in the first place. Those people don’t want to be reminded that, in the majority of people’s minds now, they made a mistake and got it wrong.
I fear brexit related arguments will run for years.
But it is still nice to see a great ass in an avatar
Well you put it much better than some of the others. I get that people are angry, I'm with them. What I don't understand is why they feel the need to continually try to divide us by pointing everything out, maybe its their delivery method that I don't get.
I just don't see that making these posts everyday does anything else, we, as a populace can't change what is now happening so arguing amongst ourselves achieves nothing.
I'll pass on your approval of the wife's ass
We can't change anything on here. If people are allowed to vote the country down the toilet, surely were allowed to speak up about it."Speak up all you like, I can't stop you. I've said many times now, it won't change anything. Why allow it to consume you? | |||
"Honestly what's the point? Why keep bringing up Brexit rubbing your hands together with smug self satisfaction saying " told you so" Is this going to change anything?? If labour get in are they going to give the nation a second chance to vote? And even if that happens are the EU going to welcome us back open arms and a warm embrace? No. Unless you can persuade them to believe that the majority voted based on lies and that we where misled. So starting inflammatory threads such as this is nothing more than trying to start an argument. To use an old phrase. "No point crying over spilt milk" I've been trying to day exactly this on another thread but some people will just never understand. It does nothing but keep the country divided
If someone stole your wallet would you be cool about it. No point in creating division between you and the person who stole your money.
When your hands and tied in seeking any form of resolution then what is the point in sulking about it.
Im not sure about you but when that's the case for me, whether I like it or not, I move on, I'm not one to continue to allow it to affect my future.
Ps, note I said when my hands are tied. If I could do something about it, of course I'd try and resolve it. Division is bollocks though, i don't believe division does anyone any good.
You make a good point but just as anger and dissatisfaction with the UK led to vote Leave winning, so too now there is equal anger and dissatisfaction at how things are working out. A lot of people are still angry at this huge act of self harm. I doubt many can let go yet. And generally the only ones telling them to let it go are those who voted Leave and caused this mess in the first place. Those people don’t want to be reminded that, in the majority of people’s minds now, they made a mistake and got it wrong.
I fear brexit related arguments will run for years.
But it is still nice to see a great ass in an avatar
Well you put it much better than some of the others. I get that people are angry, I'm with them. What I don't understand is why they feel the need to continually try to divide us by pointing everything out, maybe its their delivery method that I don't get.
I just don't see that making these posts everyday does anything else, we, as a populace can't change what is now happening so arguing amongst ourselves achieves nothing.
I'll pass on your approval of the wife's ass
I think it is admirable to try and bring harmony but I doubt that will be possible for some time yet. It is too raw, recent, and the negative impact is being felt right now. People are suffering and it has been made a lot worse by brexit.
As another poster just said, ideally we would all work together to make the best of a bad situation, but again there are deep wounds due to the vociferous and spiteful nature of the debate for many years. Name calling on both sides. Implication that people who disagreed with you were idiots/thick.
As a remain voter I cringed at the approach taken by many (inc myself from time-to-time). There was an air of superiority coming from many in the Remain camp that triggered and entrenched many in the Leave camp.
The whole period is a dark time for our society with division sowed, exploited and left to fester.
Sad times!
The air of superiority is still there. Maybe that's what bothers me. It cant just be me that can't stand those people. Maybe that's what triggers me."What are the words that communicate that? How is "superiority" different to "frustration" when the even now the consequences are being denied? | |||
"Honestly what's the point? Why keep bringing up Brexit rubbing your hands together with smug self satisfaction saying " told you so" Is this going to change anything?? If labour get in are they going to give the nation a second chance to vote? And even if that happens are the EU going to welcome us back open arms and a warm embrace? No. Unless you can persuade them to believe that the majority voted based on lies and that we where misled. So starting inflammatory threads such as this is nothing more than trying to start an argument. To use an old phrase. "No point crying over spilt milk" I've been trying to day exactly this on another thread but some people will just never understand. It does nothing but keep the country divided
Have the people in power and continuing to advocate Brexit acknowledging any negatives with it?
Who expects the EU to "welcome us back"? We have screwed that. At best we will get EEA membership on the same terms as everyone else does.
However, right now, we are still picking fights over the Northern Ireland Accord.
Why do you think that the polling on Brexit has shifted so much the other way now? How do you propose this is approached to make a bigger change?
Don't mention the problems? Whisper them? Don't upset the poor, fragile people who say they are delighted that "remoaners" are upset or say that they "lost and should get over it"?
I know that you are going to write again that that is not what you want. So what is? So, what do we do?
Bring us together. Give us the strategy for this without upsetting the apparent "winners" who are still making the decisions?"See my reply above. It will achieve nothing, why allow it to consume you? | |||
"Honestly what's the point? Why keep bringing up Brexit rubbing your hands together with smug self satisfaction saying " told you so" Is this going to change anything?? If labour get in are they going to give the nation a second chance to vote? And even if that happens are the EU going to welcome us back open arms and a warm embrace? No. Unless you can persuade them to believe that the majority voted based on lies and that we where misled. So starting inflammatory threads such as this is nothing more than trying to start an argument. To use an old phrase. "No point crying over spilt milk" I've been trying to day exactly this on another thread but some people will just never understand. It does nothing but keep the country divided
If someone stole your wallet would you be cool about it. No point in creating division between you and the person who stole your money.
When your hands and tied in seeking any form of resolution then what is the point in sulking about it.
Im not sure about you but when that's the case for me, whether I like it or not, I move on, I'm not one to continue to allow it to affect my future.
Ps, note I said when my hands are tied. If I could do something about it, of course I'd try and resolve it. Division is bollocks though, i don't believe division does anyone any good.
You make a good point but just as anger and dissatisfaction with the UK led to vote Leave winning, so too now there is equal anger and dissatisfaction at how things are working out. A lot of people are still angry at this huge act of self harm. I doubt many can let go yet. And generally the only ones telling them to let it go are those who voted Leave and caused this mess in the first place. Those people don’t want to be reminded that, in the majority of people’s minds now, they made a mistake and got it wrong.
I fear brexit related arguments will run for years.
But it is still nice to see a great ass in an avatar
Well you put it much better than some of the others. I get that people are angry, I'm with them. What I don't understand is why they feel the need to continually try to divide us by pointing everything out, maybe its their delivery method that I don't get.
I just don't see that making these posts everyday does anything else, we, as a populace can't change what is now happening so arguing amongst ourselves achieves nothing.
I'll pass on your approval of the wife's ass
I think it is admirable to try and bring harmony but I doubt that will be possible for some time yet. It is too raw, recent, and the negative impact is being felt right now. People are suffering and it has been made a lot worse by brexit.
As another poster just said, ideally we would all work together to make the best of a bad situation, but again there are deep wounds due to the vociferous and spiteful nature of the debate for many years. Name calling on both sides. Implication that people who disagreed with you were idiots/thick.
As a remain voter I cringed at the approach taken by many (inc myself from time-to-time). There was an air of superiority coming from many in the Remain camp that triggered and entrenched many in the Leave camp.
The whole period is a dark time for our society with division sowed, exploited and left to fester.
Sad times!
The air of superiority is still there. Maybe that's what bothers me. It cant just be me that can't stand those people. Maybe that's what triggers me.
What are the words that communicate that?
How is "superiority" different to "frustration" when the even now the consequences are being denied?"Do you ever have anything to add or is it always just questions? Superiority and frustration are definitely different in the delivery of written words. | |||
"Honestly what's the point? Why keep bringing up Brexit rubbing your hands together with smug self satisfaction saying " told you so" Is this going to change anything?? If labour get in are they going to give the nation a second chance to vote? And even if that happens are the EU going to welcome us back open arms and a warm embrace? No. Unless you can persuade them to believe that the majority voted based on lies and that we where misled. So starting inflammatory threads such as this is nothing more than trying to start an argument. To use an old phrase. "No point crying over spilt milk" I've been trying to day exactly this on another thread but some people will just never understand. It does nothing but keep the country divided
If someone stole your wallet would you be cool about it. No point in creating division between you and the person who stole your money.
When your hands and tied in seeking any form of resolution then what is the point in sulking about it.
Im not sure about you but when that's the case for me, whether I like it or not, I move on, I'm not one to continue to allow it to affect my future.
Ps, note I said when my hands are tied. If I could do something about it, of course I'd try and resolve it. Division is bollocks though, i don't believe division does anyone any good.
You make a good point but just as anger and dissatisfaction with the UK led to vote Leave winning, so too now there is equal anger and dissatisfaction at how things are working out. A lot of people are still angry at this huge act of self harm. I doubt many can let go yet. And generally the only ones telling them to let it go are those who voted Leave and caused this mess in the first place. Those people don’t want to be reminded that, in the majority of people’s minds now, they made a mistake and got it wrong.
I fear brexit related arguments will run for years.
But it is still nice to see a great ass in an avatar
Well you put it much better than some of the others. I get that people are angry, I'm with them. What I don't understand is why they feel the need to continually try to divide us by pointing everything out, maybe its their delivery method that I don't get.
I just don't see that making these posts everyday does anything else, we, as a populace can't change what is now happening so arguing amongst ourselves achieves nothing.
I'll pass on your approval of the wife's ass
I think it is admirable to try and bring harmony but I doubt that will be possible for some time yet. It is too raw, recent, and the negative impact is being felt right now. People are suffering and it has been made a lot worse by brexit.
As another poster just said, ideally we would all work together to make the best of a bad situation, but again there are deep wounds due to the vociferous and spiteful nature of the debate for many years. Name calling on both sides. Implication that people who disagreed with you were idiots/thick.
As a remain voter I cringed at the approach taken by many (inc myself from time-to-time). There was an air of superiority coming from many in the Remain camp that triggered and entrenched many in the Leave camp.
The whole period is a dark time for our society with division sowed, exploited and left to fester.
Sad times!
The air of superiority is still there. Maybe that's what bothers me. It cant just be me that can't stand those people. Maybe that's what triggers me.
What are the words that communicate that?
How is "superiority" different to "frustration" when the even now the consequences are being denied?"Do you ever have anything to add or is it always just questions? Superiority and frustration are definitely different in the delivery of written words. | |||
"Honestly what's the point? Why keep bringing up Brexit rubbing your hands together with smug self satisfaction saying " told you so" Is this going to change anything?? If labour get in are they going to give the nation a second chance to vote? And even if that happens are the EU going to welcome us back open arms and a warm embrace? No. Unless you can persuade them to believe that the majority voted based on lies and that we where misled. So starting inflammatory threads such as this is nothing more than trying to start an argument. To use an old phrase. "No point crying over spilt milk" I've been trying to day exactly this on another thread but some people will just never understand. It does nothing but keep the country divided
If someone stole your wallet would you be cool about it. No point in creating division between you and the person who stole your money.
When your hands and tied in seeking any form of resolution then what is the point in sulking about it.
Im not sure about you but when that's the case for me, whether I like it or not, I move on, I'm not one to continue to allow it to affect my future.
Ps, note I said when my hands are tied. If I could do something about it, of course I'd try and resolve it. Division is bollocks though, i don't believe division does anyone any good.
You make a good point but just as anger and dissatisfaction with the UK led to vote Leave winning, so too now there is equal anger and dissatisfaction at how things are working out. A lot of people are still angry at this huge act of self harm. I doubt many can let go yet. And generally the only ones telling them to let it go are those who voted Leave and caused this mess in the first place. Those people don’t want to be reminded that, in the majority of people’s minds now, they made a mistake and got it wrong.
I fear brexit related arguments will run for years.
But it is still nice to see a great ass in an avatar
Well you put it much better than some of the others. I get that people are angry, I'm with them. What I don't understand is why they feel the need to continually try to divide us by pointing everything out, maybe its their delivery method that I don't get.
I just don't see that making these posts everyday does anything else, we, as a populace can't change what is now happening so arguing amongst ourselves achieves nothing.
I'll pass on your approval of the wife's ass
I think it is admirable to try and bring harmony but I doubt that will be possible for some time yet. It is too raw, recent, and the negative impact is being felt right now. People are suffering and it has been made a lot worse by brexit.
As another poster just said, ideally we would all work together to make the best of a bad situation, but again there are deep wounds due to the vociferous and spiteful nature of the debate for many years. Name calling on both sides. Implication that people who disagreed with you were idiots/thick.
As a remain voter I cringed at the approach taken by many (inc myself from time-to-time). There was an air of superiority coming from many in the Remain camp that triggered and entrenched many in the Leave camp.
The whole period is a dark time for our society with division sowed, exploited and left to fester.
Sad times!
The air of superiority is still there. Maybe that's what bothers me. It cant just be me that can't stand those people. Maybe that's what triggers me.
What are the words that communicate that?
How is "superiority" different to "frustration" when the even now the consequences are being denied?
Do you ever have anything to add or is it always just questions?
Superiority and frustration are definitely different in the delivery of written words. "Actually, I'm waiting for you to behave as you are telling others to do. Rather than antagonise me further as someone who disagrees with you, please explain how how we achieve bringing together the two sides and resolving the failures of Brexit. That's the only thing of substance here. You're asking people to change their behaviour, so please demonstrate how. Perhaps you could indicate the difference between a "superior" tone and a "frustrated" tone in any of the posts here? I'm asking you to walk the walk. | |||
| |||
"Honestly what's the point? Why keep bringing up Brexit rubbing your hands together with smug self satisfaction saying " told you so" Is this going to change anything?? If labour get in are they going to give the nation a second chance to vote? And even if that happens are the EU going to welcome us back open arms and a warm embrace? No. Unless you can persuade them to believe that the majority voted based on lies and that we where misled. So starting inflammatory threads such as this is nothing more than trying to start an argument. To use an old phrase. "No point crying over spilt milk" I've been trying to day exactly this on another thread but some people will just never understand. It does nothing but keep the country divided
If someone stole your wallet would you be cool about it. No point in creating division between you and the person who stole your money.
When your hands and tied in seeking any form of resolution then what is the point in sulking about it.
Im not sure about you but when that's the case for me, whether I like it or not, I move on, I'm not one to continue to allow it to affect my future.
Ps, note I said when my hands are tied. If I could do something about it, of course I'd try and resolve it. Division is bollocks though, i don't believe division does anyone any good.
You make a good point but just as anger and dissatisfaction with the UK led to vote Leave winning, so too now there is equal anger and dissatisfaction at how things are working out. A lot of people are still angry at this huge act of self harm. I doubt many can let go yet. And generally the only ones telling them to let it go are those who voted Leave and caused this mess in the first place. Those people don’t want to be reminded that, in the majority of people’s minds now, they made a mistake and got it wrong.
I fear brexit related arguments will run for years.
But it is still nice to see a great ass in an avatar
Well you put it much better than some of the others. I get that people are angry, I'm with them. What I don't understand is why they feel the need to continually try to divide us by pointing everything out, maybe its their delivery method that I don't get.
I just don't see that making these posts everyday does anything else, we, as a populace can't change what is now happening so arguing amongst ourselves achieves nothing.
I'll pass on your approval of the wife's ass
I think it is admirable to try and bring harmony but I doubt that will be possible for some time yet. It is too raw, recent, and the negative impact is being felt right now. People are suffering and it has been made a lot worse by brexit.
As another poster just said, ideally we would all work together to make the best of a bad situation, but again there are deep wounds due to the vociferous and spiteful nature of the debate for many years. Name calling on both sides. Implication that people who disagreed with you were idiots/thick.
As a remain voter I cringed at the approach taken by many (inc myself from time-to-time). There was an air of superiority coming from many in the Remain camp that triggered and entrenched many in the Leave camp.
The whole period is a dark time for our society with division sowed, exploited and left to fester.
Sad times!
The air of superiority is still there. Maybe that's what bothers me. It cant just be me that can't stand those people. Maybe that's what triggers me.
What are the words that communicate that?
How is "superiority" different to "frustration" when the even now the consequences are being denied?
Do you ever have anything to add or is it always just questions?
Superiority and frustration are definitely different in the delivery of written words.
Actually, I'm waiting for you to behave as you are telling others to do.
Rather than antagonise me further as someone who disagrees with you, please explain how how we achieve bringing together the two sides and resolving the failures of Brexit.
That's the only thing of substance here. You're asking people to change their behaviour, so please demonstrate how.
Perhaps you could indicate the difference between a "superior" tone and a "frustrated" tone in any of the posts here?
I'm asking you to walk the walk."The start of trying to achieve bringing to sides together is to stop with the 'I told you so' I've said this many times, it's not my fault you refuse to listen. | |||
"I've been doing much thinking on this. Defining Brexit as good or bad is decisive. Even if people had the same "facts" during the referendum they may still have different views. A hgv driver struggling to feed their family may put a lot more weight on the chance Brexit would improve his pay compared to a middle class student with hopes of studying in Italy. Some value increases autonomy (badged as sovereignty) even if it pushes up prices. That doesn't make them wrong. Your vote is personal secondly, just because this version of Brexit seems to be overall bad doesn't mean your decision was wrong. If I offered you evens on Japan and South Korea both qualifying, you may have made a good decision to tell me to go jump. Yet in hindsight that woukd have made you money. The bet was still bad odds. the told you so approach is used to show people they were wrong. However it doesn't show this explicitly. It doesn't even show Brexit was a bad idea. Just that a version of brexit was. And I suspect there are versions of remain that are a bad idea. Imo, we need to carry on understanding why people voted to leave, more under a bad Brexit, than ever. And that needs us to move away from saying they were wrong but both sides saying this is not one of the good brexits, but how can we adapt to make it better. Now some leave voters will only have one idea of Brexit in their head. That's hard to work with as that's like saying England will win 2-1. Guaranteed. But even then we can seek to understand why they think that rather than simply telling them they are wrong. And maybe help them see think about decisions in a more nuanced way (and remainers, before we get cocky, how many of us accepted that an EU army could happen, even with low likihood? How many of us thought if the pros and cons of Brexit under pandemic conditions. Or a war in Europe. I didn't. ) " But is brexit and a war in Europe linked . I don't believe in conspiracy stories but I firmly believe brexit was sponsored by and heavily influenced by Russia in an attempt to segregate and weaken Europe. | |||
"Honestly what's the point? Why keep bringing up Brexit rubbing your hands together with smug self satisfaction saying " told you so" Is this going to change anything?? If labour get in are they going to give the nation a second chance to vote? And even if that happens are the EU going to welcome us back open arms and a warm embrace? No. Unless you can persuade them to believe that the majority voted based on lies and that we where misled. So starting inflammatory threads such as this is nothing more than trying to start an argument. To use an old phrase. "No point crying over spilt milk" I've been trying to day exactly this on another thread but some people will just never understand. It does nothing but keep the country divided
If someone stole your wallet would you be cool about it. No point in creating division between you and the person who stole your money.
When your hands and tied in seeking any form of resolution then what is the point in sulking about it.
Im not sure about you but when that's the case for me, whether I like it or not, I move on, I'm not one to continue to allow it to affect my future.
Ps, note I said when my hands are tied. If I could do something about it, of course I'd try and resolve it. Division is bollocks though, i don't believe division does anyone any good.
You make a good point but just as anger and dissatisfaction with the UK led to vote Leave winning, so too now there is equal anger and dissatisfaction at how things are working out. A lot of people are still angry at this huge act of self harm. I doubt many can let go yet. And generally the only ones telling them to let it go are those who voted Leave and caused this mess in the first place. Those people don’t want to be reminded that, in the majority of people’s minds now, they made a mistake and got it wrong.
I fear brexit related arguments will run for years.
But it is still nice to see a great ass in an avatar
Well you put it much better than some of the others. I get that people are angry, I'm with them. What I don't understand is why they feel the need to continually try to divide us by pointing everything out, maybe its their delivery method that I don't get.
I just don't see that making these posts everyday does anything else, we, as a populace can't change what is now happening so arguing amongst ourselves achieves nothing.
I'll pass on your approval of the wife's ass
We can't change anything on here. If people are allowed to vote the country down the toilet, surely were allowed to speak up about it.
Speak up all you like, I can't stop you. I've said many times now, it won't change anything. Why allow it to consume you?"Poking fun at people who think brexit is a good idea doesn't consume me, it's just funny. For those who do think discussion on brexit will change things, I support their ambition. Maybe it will change things, next time there's a referendum for making us all poorer or not, people will think a little more about their choice (personally, I don't think so, but what do I know?). But I always advocate for people being able to speak up with any opinion, on any subject. | |||
"I've been doing much thinking on this. Defining Brexit as good or bad is decisive. Even if people had the same "facts" during the referendum they may still have different views. A hgv driver struggling to feed their family may put a lot more weight on the chance Brexit would improve his pay compared to a middle class student with hopes of studying in Italy. Some value increases autonomy (badged as sovereignty) even if it pushes up prices. That doesn't make them wrong. Your vote is personal secondly, just because this version of Brexit seems to be overall bad doesn't mean your decision was wrong. If I offered you evens on Japan and South Korea both qualifying, you may have made a good decision to tell me to go jump. Yet in hindsight that woukd have made you money. The bet was still bad odds. the told you so approach is used to show people they were wrong. However it doesn't show this explicitly. It doesn't even show Brexit was a bad idea. Just that a version of brexit was. And I suspect there are versions of remain that are a bad idea. Imo, we need to carry on understanding why people voted to leave, more under a bad Brexit, than ever. And that needs us to move away from saying they were wrong but both sides saying this is not one of the good brexits, but how can we adapt to make it better. Now some leave voters will only have one idea of Brexit in their head. That's hard to work with as that's like saying England will win 2-1. Guaranteed. But even then we can seek to understand why they think that rather than simply telling them they are wrong. And maybe help them see think about decisions in a more nuanced way (and remainers, before we get cocky, how many of us accepted that an EU army could happen, even with low likihood? How many of us thought if the pros and cons of Brexit under pandemic conditions. Or a war in Europe. I didn't. ) But is brexit and a war in Europe linked . I don't believe in conspiracy stories but I firmly believe brexit was sponsored by and heavily influenced by Russia in an attempt to segregate and weaken Europe." Brexit was clearly sponsored, by who? I don't have the answer to that. What I would say though, Ukraine is not part of Nato or the EU. The UK and many EU states are Nato members so I honestly don't think that conspiracy stacks up. | |||
"Honestly what's the point? Why keep bringing up Brexit rubbing your hands together with smug self satisfaction saying " told you so" Is this going to change anything?? If labour get in are they going to give the nation a second chance to vote? And even if that happens are the EU going to welcome us back open arms and a warm embrace? No. Unless you can persuade them to believe that the majority voted based on lies and that we where misled. So starting inflammatory threads such as this is nothing more than trying to start an argument. To use an old phrase. "No point crying over spilt milk" I've been trying to day exactly this on another thread but some people will just never understand. It does nothing but keep the country divided
If someone stole your wallet would you be cool about it. No point in creating division between you and the person who stole your money.
When your hands and tied in seeking any form of resolution then what is the point in sulking about it.
Im not sure about you but when that's the case for me, whether I like it or not, I move on, I'm not one to continue to allow it to affect my future.
Ps, note I said when my hands are tied. If I could do something about it, of course I'd try and resolve it. Division is bollocks though, i don't believe division does anyone any good.
You make a good point but just as anger and dissatisfaction with the UK led to vote Leave winning, so too now there is equal anger and dissatisfaction at how things are working out. A lot of people are still angry at this huge act of self harm. I doubt many can let go yet. And generally the only ones telling them to let it go are those who voted Leave and caused this mess in the first place. Those people don’t want to be reminded that, in the majority of people’s minds now, they made a mistake and got it wrong.
I fear brexit related arguments will run for years.
But it is still nice to see a great ass in an avatar
Well you put it much better than some of the others. I get that people are angry, I'm with them. What I don't understand is why they feel the need to continually try to divide us by pointing everything out, maybe its their delivery method that I don't get.
I just don't see that making these posts everyday does anything else, we, as a populace can't change what is now happening so arguing amongst ourselves achieves nothing.
I'll pass on your approval of the wife's ass
We can't change anything on here. If people are allowed to vote the country down the toilet, surely were allowed to speak up about it.
Speak up all you like, I can't stop you. I've said many times now, it won't change anything. Why allow it to consume you?
Poking fun at people who think brexit is a good idea doesn't consume me, it's just funny.
For those who do think discussion on brexit will change things, I support their ambition. Maybe it will change things, next time there's a referendum for making us all poorer or not, people will think a little more about their choice (personally, I don't think so, but what do I know?).
But I always advocate for people being able to speak up with any opinion, on any subject. "Poking fun at people is funny? What a charming person you are | |||
"Honestly what's the point? Why keep bringing up Brexit rubbing your hands together with smug self satisfaction saying " told you so" Is this going to change anything?? If labour get in are they going to give the nation a second chance to vote? And even if that happens are the EU going to welcome us back open arms and a warm embrace? No. Unless you can persuade them to believe that the majority voted based on lies and that we where misled. So starting inflammatory threads such as this is nothing more than trying to start an argument. To use an old phrase. "No point crying over spilt milk" I've been trying to day exactly this on another thread but some people will just never understand. It does nothing but keep the country divided
If someone stole your wallet would you be cool about it. No point in creating division between you and the person who stole your money.
When your hands and tied in seeking any form of resolution then what is the point in sulking about it.
Im not sure about you but when that's the case for me, whether I like it or not, I move on, I'm not one to continue to allow it to affect my future.
Ps, note I said when my hands are tied. If I could do something about it, of course I'd try and resolve it. Division is bollocks though, i don't believe division does anyone any good.
You make a good point but just as anger and dissatisfaction with the UK led to vote Leave winning, so too now there is equal anger and dissatisfaction at how things are working out. A lot of people are still angry at this huge act of self harm. I doubt many can let go yet. And generally the only ones telling them to let it go are those who voted Leave and caused this mess in the first place. Those people don’t want to be reminded that, in the majority of people’s minds now, they made a mistake and got it wrong.
I fear brexit related arguments will run for years.
But it is still nice to see a great ass in an avatar
Well you put it much better than some of the others. I get that people are angry, I'm with them. What I don't understand is why they feel the need to continually try to divide us by pointing everything out, maybe its their delivery method that I don't get.
I just don't see that making these posts everyday does anything else, we, as a populace can't change what is now happening so arguing amongst ourselves achieves nothing.
I'll pass on your approval of the wife's ass
I think it is admirable to try and bring harmony but I doubt that will be possible for some time yet. It is too raw, recent, and the negative impact is being felt right now. People are suffering and it has been made a lot worse by brexit.
As another poster just said, ideally we would all work together to make the best of a bad situation, but again there are deep wounds due to the vociferous and spiteful nature of the debate for many years. Name calling on both sides. Implication that people who disagreed with you were idiots/thick.
As a remain voter I cringed at the approach taken by many (inc myself from time-to-time). There was an air of superiority coming from many in the Remain camp that triggered and entrenched many in the Leave camp.
The whole period is a dark time for our society with division sowed, exploited and left to fester.
Sad times!
The air of superiority is still there. Maybe that's what bothers me. It cant just be me that can't stand those people. Maybe that's what triggers me.
What are the words that communicate that?
How is "superiority" different to "frustration" when the even now the consequences are being denied?
Do you ever have anything to add or is it always just questions?
Superiority and frustration are definitely different in the delivery of written words.
Actually, I'm waiting for you to behave as you are telling others to do.
Rather than antagonise me further as someone who disagrees with you, please explain how how we achieve bringing together the two sides and resolving the failures of Brexit.
That's the only thing of substance here. You're asking people to change their behaviour, so please demonstrate how.
Perhaps you could indicate the difference between a "superior" tone and a "frustrated" tone in any of the posts here?
I'm asking you to walk the walk.
The start of trying to achieve bringing to sides together is to stop with the 'I told you so' I've said this many times, it's not my fault you refuse to listen."I agree, however , it is difficult to debate with the ‘you lost get over it’ brigade, for example, there is a very confused person on here who states that the biggest benefit of Brexit is that it pissed people off  | |||
"Honestly what's the point? Why keep bringing up Brexit rubbing your hands together with smug self satisfaction saying " told you so" Is this going to change anything?? If labour get in are they going to give the nation a second chance to vote? And even if that happens are the EU going to welcome us back open arms and a warm embrace? No. Unless you can persuade them to believe that the majority voted based on lies and that we where misled. So starting inflammatory threads such as this is nothing more than trying to start an argument. To use an old phrase. "No point crying over spilt milk" I've been trying to day exactly this on another thread but some people will just never understand. It does nothing but keep the country divided
If someone stole your wallet would you be cool about it. No point in creating division between you and the person who stole your money.
When your hands and tied in seeking any form of resolution then what is the point in sulking about it.
Im not sure about you but when that's the case for me, whether I like it or not, I move on, I'm not one to continue to allow it to affect my future.
Ps, note I said when my hands are tied. If I could do something about it, of course I'd try and resolve it. Division is bollocks though, i don't believe division does anyone any good.
You make a good point but just as anger and dissatisfaction with the UK led to vote Leave winning, so too now there is equal anger and dissatisfaction at how things are working out. A lot of people are still angry at this huge act of self harm. I doubt many can let go yet. And generally the only ones telling them to let it go are those who voted Leave and caused this mess in the first place. Those people don’t want to be reminded that, in the majority of people’s minds now, they made a mistake and got it wrong.
I fear brexit related arguments will run for years.
But it is still nice to see a great ass in an avatar
Well you put it much better than some of the others. I get that people are angry, I'm with them. What I don't understand is why they feel the need to continually try to divide us by pointing everything out, maybe its their delivery method that I don't get.
I just don't see that making these posts everyday does anything else, we, as a populace can't change what is now happening so arguing amongst ourselves achieves nothing.
I'll pass on your approval of the wife's ass
We can't change anything on here. If people are allowed to vote the country down the toilet, surely were allowed to speak up about it.
Speak up all you like, I can't stop you. I've said many times now, it won't change anything. Why allow it to consume you?
Poking fun at people who think brexit is a good idea doesn't consume me, it's just funny.
For those who do think discussion on brexit will change things, I support their ambition. Maybe it will change things, next time there's a referendum for making us all poorer or not, people will think a little more about their choice (personally, I don't think so, but what do I know?).
But I always advocate for people being able to speak up with any opinion, on any subject.
Poking fun at people is funny? What a charming person you are "No need to get personal. If someone is okay voting us all poorer, why shouldn't we poke fun at them for that? | |||
"Honestly what's the point? Why keep bringing up Brexit rubbing your hands together with smug self satisfaction saying " told you so" Is this going to change anything?? If labour get in are they going to give the nation a second chance to vote? And even if that happens are the EU going to welcome us back open arms and a warm embrace? No. Unless you can persuade them to believe that the majority voted based on lies and that we where misled. So starting inflammatory threads such as this is nothing more than trying to start an argument. To use an old phrase. "No point crying over spilt milk" I've been trying to day exactly this on another thread but some people will just never understand. It does nothing but keep the country divided
If someone stole your wallet would you be cool about it. No point in creating division between you and the person who stole your money.
When your hands and tied in seeking any form of resolution then what is the point in sulking about it.
Im not sure about you but when that's the case for me, whether I like it or not, I move on, I'm not one to continue to allow it to affect my future.
Ps, note I said when my hands are tied. If I could do something about it, of course I'd try and resolve it. Division is bollocks though, i don't believe division does anyone any good.
You make a good point but just as anger and dissatisfaction with the UK led to vote Leave winning, so too now there is equal anger and dissatisfaction at how things are working out. A lot of people are still angry at this huge act of self harm. I doubt many can let go yet. And generally the only ones telling them to let it go are those who voted Leave and caused this mess in the first place. Those people don’t want to be reminded that, in the majority of people’s minds now, they made a mistake and got it wrong.
I fear brexit related arguments will run for years.
But it is still nice to see a great ass in an avatar
Well you put it much better than some of the others. I get that people are angry, I'm with them. What I don't understand is why they feel the need to continually try to divide us by pointing everything out, maybe its their delivery method that I don't get.
I just don't see that making these posts everyday does anything else, we, as a populace can't change what is now happening so arguing amongst ourselves achieves nothing.
I'll pass on your approval of the wife's ass
I think it is admirable to try and bring harmony but I doubt that will be possible for some time yet. It is too raw, recent, and the negative impact is being felt right now. People are suffering and it has been made a lot worse by brexit.
As another poster just said, ideally we would all work together to make the best of a bad situation, but again there are deep wounds due to the vociferous and spiteful nature of the debate for many years. Name calling on both sides. Implication that people who disagreed with you were idiots/thick.
As a remain voter I cringed at the approach taken by many (inc myself from time-to-time). There was an air of superiority coming from many in the Remain camp that triggered and entrenched many in the Leave camp.
The whole period is a dark time for our society with division sowed, exploited and left to fester.
Sad times!
The air of superiority is still there. Maybe that's what bothers me. It cant just be me that can't stand those people. Maybe that's what triggers me.
What are the words that communicate that?
How is "superiority" different to "frustration" when the even now the consequences are being denied?
Do you ever have anything to add or is it always just questions?
Superiority and frustration are definitely different in the delivery of written words.
Actually, I'm waiting for you to behave as you are telling others to do.
Rather than antagonise me further as someone who disagrees with you, please explain how how we achieve bringing together the two sides and resolving the failures of Brexit.
That's the only thing of substance here. You're asking people to change their behaviour, so please demonstrate how.
Perhaps you could indicate the difference between a "superior" tone and a "frustrated" tone in any of the posts here?
I'm asking you to walk the walk.
The start of trying to achieve bringing to sides together is to stop with the 'I told you so' I've said this many times, it's not my fault you refuse to listen.
I agree, however , it is difficult to debate with the ‘you lost get over it’ brigade, for example, there is a very confused person on here who states that the biggest benefit of Brexit is that it pissed people off "I agree it's difficult to debate with those people but as someone above said, try to understand the reasoning and then go from there. | |||
"Honestly what's the point? Why keep bringing up Brexit rubbing your hands together with smug self satisfaction saying " told you so" Is this going to change anything?? If labour get in are they going to give the nation a second chance to vote? And even if that happens are the EU going to welcome us back open arms and a warm embrace? No. Unless you can persuade them to believe that the majority voted based on lies and that we where misled. So starting inflammatory threads such as this is nothing more than trying to start an argument. To use an old phrase. "No point crying over spilt milk" I've been trying to day exactly this on another thread but some people will just never understand. It does nothing but keep the country divided
If someone stole your wallet would you be cool about it. No point in creating division between you and the person who stole your money.
When your hands and tied in seeking any form of resolution then what is the point in sulking about it.
Im not sure about you but when that's the case for me, whether I like it or not, I move on, I'm not one to continue to allow it to affect my future.
Ps, note I said when my hands are tied. If I could do something about it, of course I'd try and resolve it. Division is bollocks though, i don't believe division does anyone any good.
You make a good point but just as anger and dissatisfaction with the UK led to vote Leave winning, so too now there is equal anger and dissatisfaction at how things are working out. A lot of people are still angry at this huge act of self harm. I doubt many can let go yet. And generally the only ones telling them to let it go are those who voted Leave and caused this mess in the first place. Those people don’t want to be reminded that, in the majority of people’s minds now, they made a mistake and got it wrong.
I fear brexit related arguments will run for years.
But it is still nice to see a great ass in an avatar
Well you put it much better than some of the others. I get that people are angry, I'm with them. What I don't understand is why they feel the need to continually try to divide us by pointing everything out, maybe its their delivery method that I don't get.
I just don't see that making these posts everyday does anything else, we, as a populace can't change what is now happening so arguing amongst ourselves achieves nothing.
I'll pass on your approval of the wife's ass
I think it is admirable to try and bring harmony but I doubt that will be possible for some time yet. It is too raw, recent, and the negative impact is being felt right now. People are suffering and it has been made a lot worse by brexit.
As another poster just said, ideally we would all work together to make the best of a bad situation, but again there are deep wounds due to the vociferous and spiteful nature of the debate for many years. Name calling on both sides. Implication that people who disagreed with you were idiots/thick.
As a remain voter I cringed at the approach taken by many (inc myself from time-to-time). There was an air of superiority coming from many in the Remain camp that triggered and entrenched many in the Leave camp.
The whole period is a dark time for our society with division sowed, exploited and left to fester.
Sad times!
The air of superiority is still there. Maybe that's what bothers me. It cant just be me that can't stand those people. Maybe that's what triggers me.
What are the words that communicate that?
How is "superiority" different to "frustration" when the even now the consequences are being denied?
Do you ever have anything to add or is it always just questions?
Superiority and frustration are definitely different in the delivery of written words.
Actually, I'm waiting for you to behave as you are telling others to do.
Rather than antagonise me further as someone who disagrees with you, please explain how how we achieve bringing together the two sides and resolving the failures of Brexit.
That's the only thing of substance here. You're asking people to change their behaviour, so please demonstrate how.
Perhaps you could indicate the difference between a "superior" tone and a "frustrated" tone in any of the posts here?
I'm asking you to walk the walk.
The start of trying to achieve bringing to sides together is to stop with the 'I told you so' I've said this many times, it's not my fault you refuse to listen.
I agree, however , it is difficult to debate with the ‘you lost get over it’ brigade, for example, there is a very confused person on here who states that the biggest benefit of Brexit is that it pissed people off
I agree it's difficult to debate with those people but as someone above said, try to understand the reasoning and then go from there. "Tbh, I tried, if a person voted for Brexit just to piss people off then I think they are beyond reasoning, | |||
"I've been doing much thinking on this. Defining Brexit as good or bad is decisive. Even if people had the same "facts" during the referendum they may still have different views. A hgv driver struggling to feed their family may put a lot more weight on the chance Brexit would improve his pay compared to a middle class student with hopes of studying in Italy. Some value increases autonomy (badged as sovereignty) even if it pushes up prices. That doesn't make them wrong. Your vote is personal secondly, just because this version of Brexit seems to be overall bad doesn't mean your decision was wrong. If I offered you evens on Japan and South Korea both qualifying, you may have made a good decision to tell me to go jump. Yet in hindsight that woukd have made you money. The bet was still bad odds. the told you so approach is used to show people they were wrong. However it doesn't show this explicitly. It doesn't even show Brexit was a bad idea. Just that a version of brexit was. And I suspect there are versions of remain that are a bad idea. Imo, we need to carry on understanding why people voted to leave, more under a bad Brexit, than ever. And that needs us to move away from saying they were wrong but both sides saying this is not one of the good brexits, but how can we adapt to make it better. Now some leave voters will only have one idea of Brexit in their head. That's hard to work with as that's like saying England will win 2-1. Guaranteed. But even then we can seek to understand why they think that rather than simply telling them they are wrong. And maybe help them see think about decisions in a more nuanced way (and remainers, before we get cocky, how many of us accepted that an EU army could happen, even with low likihood? How many of us thought if the pros and cons of Brexit under pandemic conditions. Or a war in Europe. I didn't. ) " Thank you for actually addressing where this thread has got to. I actually do agree that telling people that they are wrong or stupid doesn't help. However, it seems that the act of identifying any negative consequence is labelled as "negative", "superior" or "unpatriotic". However cautiously that is out. We know that those voting for Brexit voted for their own personal interpretation of what it would be from ultra soft to complete isolation. As far as I can tell, nobody who voted for Brexit got anything resembling what they wanted. How do you solve any problem without acknowledging it? Unfortunately the only way seems to be to suffer the worst consequences, but even now there is a lot of work being put into denying even this. Who on this thread or on the wider press are actually saying that those who voted leave were "wrong"? I, personally, want it fixed as best as is possible which probably means spending more money for less influence through the EEA than we previously had. Trump's softening of US backing for NATO made a move to tighter European defence coordination inevitable with a growing threat from Russia and our hostile rhetoric towards the EU. Did our split make the attack on Ukraine more or less likely? One of those complicated counterfactuals to try to work out. I fully understand those who want a more nuanced discussion on the topic but see no advice on how to achieve it. Could we start there? | |||
"Honestly what's the point? Why keep bringing up Brexit rubbing your hands together with smug self satisfaction saying " told you so" Is this going to change anything?? If labour get in are they going to give the nation a second chance to vote? And even if that happens are the EU going to welcome us back open arms and a warm embrace? No. Unless you can persuade them to believe that the majority voted based on lies and that we where misled. So starting inflammatory threads such as this is nothing more than trying to start an argument. To use an old phrase. "No point crying over spilt milk" I've been trying to day exactly this on another thread but some people will just never understand. It does nothing but keep the country divided
If someone stole your wallet would you be cool about it. No point in creating division between you and the person who stole your money.
When your hands and tied in seeking any form of resolution then what is the point in sulking about it.
Im not sure about you but when that's the case for me, whether I like it or not, I move on, I'm not one to continue to allow it to affect my future.
Ps, note I said when my hands are tied. If I could do something about it, of course I'd try and resolve it. Division is bollocks though, i don't believe division does anyone any good.
You make a good point but just as anger and dissatisfaction with the UK led to vote Leave winning, so too now there is equal anger and dissatisfaction at how things are working out. A lot of people are still angry at this huge act of self harm. I doubt many can let go yet. And generally the only ones telling them to let it go are those who voted Leave and caused this mess in the first place. Those people don’t want to be reminded that, in the majority of people’s minds now, they made a mistake and got it wrong.
I fear brexit related arguments will run for years.
But it is still nice to see a great ass in an avatar
Well you put it much better than some of the others. I get that people are angry, I'm with them. What I don't understand is why they feel the need to continually try to divide us by pointing everything out, maybe its their delivery method that I don't get.
I just don't see that making these posts everyday does anything else, we, as a populace can't change what is now happening so arguing amongst ourselves achieves nothing.
I'll pass on your approval of the wife's ass
I think it is admirable to try and bring harmony but I doubt that will be possible for some time yet. It is too raw, recent, and the negative impact is being felt right now. People are suffering and it has been made a lot worse by brexit.
As another poster just said, ideally we would all work together to make the best of a bad situation, but again there are deep wounds due to the vociferous and spiteful nature of the debate for many years. Name calling on both sides. Implication that people who disagreed with you were idiots/thick.
As a remain voter I cringed at the approach taken by many (inc myself from time-to-time). There was an air of superiority coming from many in the Remain camp that triggered and entrenched many in the Leave camp.
The whole period is a dark time for our society with division sowed, exploited and left to fester.
Sad times!
The air of superiority is still there. Maybe that's what bothers me. It cant just be me that can't stand those people. Maybe that's what triggers me.
What are the words that communicate that?
How is "superiority" different to "frustration" when the even now the consequences are being denied?
Do you ever have anything to add or is it always just questions?
Superiority and frustration are definitely different in the delivery of written words.
Actually, I'm waiting for you to behave as you are telling others to do.
Rather than antagonise me further as someone who disagrees with you, please explain how how we achieve bringing together the two sides and resolving the failures of Brexit.
That's the only thing of substance here. You're asking people to change their behaviour, so please demonstrate how.
Perhaps you could indicate the difference between a "superior" tone and a "frustrated" tone in any of the posts here?
I'm asking you to walk the walk.
The start of trying to achieve bringing to sides together is to stop with the 'I told you so' I've said this many times, it's not my fault you refuse to listen."Do you not see that you are literally writing what you are telling me not to? Can you communicate the same advise in a way that would be more conciliatory? | |||
"I've been doing much thinking on this. Defining Brexit as good or bad is decisive. Even if people had the same "facts" during the referendum they may still have different views. A hgv driver struggling to feed their family may put a lot more weight on the chance Brexit would improve his pay compared to a middle class student with hopes of studying in Italy. Some value increases autonomy (badged as sovereignty) even if it pushes up prices. That doesn't make them wrong. Your vote is personal secondly, just because this version of Brexit seems to be overall bad doesn't mean your decision was wrong. If I offered you evens on Japan and South Korea both qualifying, you may have made a good decision to tell me to go jump. Yet in hindsight that woukd have made you money. The bet was still bad odds. the told you so approach is used to show people they were wrong. However it doesn't show this explicitly. It doesn't even show Brexit was a bad idea. Just that a version of brexit was. And I suspect there are versions of remain that are a bad idea. Imo, we need to carry on understanding why people voted to leave, more under a bad Brexit, than ever. And that needs us to move away from saying they were wrong but both sides saying this is not one of the good brexits, but how can we adapt to make it better. Now some leave voters will only have one idea of Brexit in their head. That's hard to work with as that's like saying England will win 2-1. Guaranteed. But even then we can seek to understand why they think that rather than simply telling them they are wrong. And maybe help them see think about decisions in a more nuanced way (and remainers, before we get cocky, how many of us accepted that an EU army could happen, even with low likihood? How many of us thought if the pros and cons of Brexit under pandemic conditions. Or a war in Europe. I didn't. ) " Some very good points there. I do understand some will always use the 'I told you so' approach though if the vote had gone the other way would leave voters be any different especially during recent events and challenges. I personally would like to see people working together rather than divided but that will not happen 100%. Reading the posts between fast and feisty with _irldn was heartening as its two people with opposing view points but actually able to put their case in a reasonable way | |||
"Honestly what's the point? Why keep bringing up Brexit rubbing your hands together with smug self satisfaction saying " told you so" Is this going to change anything?? If labour get in are they going to give the nation a second chance to vote? And even if that happens are the EU going to welcome us back open arms and a warm embrace? No. Unless you can persuade them to believe that the majority voted based on lies and that we where misled. So starting inflammatory threads such as this is nothing more than trying to start an argument. To use an old phrase. "No point crying over spilt milk" I've been trying to day exactly this on another thread but some people will just never understand. It does nothing but keep the country divided
If someone stole your wallet would you be cool about it. No point in creating division between you and the person who stole your money.
When your hands and tied in seeking any form of resolution then what is the point in sulking about it.
Im not sure about you but when that's the case for me, whether I like it or not, I move on, I'm not one to continue to allow it to affect my future.
Ps, note I said when my hands are tied. If I could do something about it, of course I'd try and resolve it. Division is bollocks though, i don't believe division does anyone any good.
You make a good point but just as anger and dissatisfaction with the UK led to vote Leave winning, so too now there is equal anger and dissatisfaction at how things are working out. A lot of people are still angry at this huge act of self harm. I doubt many can let go yet. And generally the only ones telling them to let it go are those who voted Leave and caused this mess in the first place. Those people don’t want to be reminded that, in the majority of people’s minds now, they made a mistake and got it wrong.
I fear brexit related arguments will run for years.
But it is still nice to see a great ass in an avatar
Well you put it much better than some of the others. I get that people are angry, I'm with them. What I don't understand is why they feel the need to continually try to divide us by pointing everything out, maybe its their delivery method that I don't get.
I just don't see that making these posts everyday does anything else, we, as a populace can't change what is now happening so arguing amongst ourselves achieves nothing.
I'll pass on your approval of the wife's ass
I think it is admirable to try and bring harmony but I doubt that will be possible for some time yet. It is too raw, recent, and the negative impact is being felt right now. People are suffering and it has been made a lot worse by brexit.
As another poster just said, ideally we would all work together to make the best of a bad situation, but again there are deep wounds due to the vociferous and spiteful nature of the debate for many years. Name calling on both sides. Implication that people who disagreed with you were idiots/thick.
As a remain voter I cringed at the approach taken by many (inc myself from time-to-time). There was an air of superiority coming from many in the Remain camp that triggered and entrenched many in the Leave camp.
The whole period is a dark time for our society with division sowed, exploited and left to fester.
Sad times!
The air of superiority is still there. Maybe that's what bothers me. It cant just be me that can't stand those people. Maybe that's what triggers me.
What are the words that communicate that?
How is "superiority" different to "frustration" when the even now the consequences are being denied?
Do you ever have anything to add or is it always just questions?
Superiority and frustration are definitely different in the delivery of written words.
Actually, I'm waiting for you to behave as you are telling others to do.
Rather than antagonise me further as someone who disagrees with you, please explain how how we achieve bringing together the two sides and resolving the failures of Brexit.
That's the only thing of substance here. You're asking people to change their behaviour, so please demonstrate how.
Perhaps you could indicate the difference between a "superior" tone and a "frustrated" tone in any of the posts here?
I'm asking you to walk the walk.
The start of trying to achieve bringing to sides together is to stop with the 'I told you so' I've said this many times, it's not my fault you refuse to listen.
Do you not see that you are literally writing what you are telling me not to?
Can you communicate the same advise in a way that would be more conciliatory?"You keep asking the same question and getting the same answer. Do you feel I replying to you in a superior manner? If so, I apologise for that as it's definitely not my intention. | |||
"I've been doing much thinking on this. Defining Brexit as good or bad is decisive. Even if people had the same "facts" during the referendum they may still have different views. A hgv driver struggling to feed their family may put a lot more weight on the chance Brexit would improve his pay compared to a middle class student with hopes of studying in Italy. Some value increases autonomy (badged as sovereignty) even if it pushes up prices. That doesn't make them wrong. Your vote is personal secondly, just because this version of Brexit seems to be overall bad doesn't mean your decision was wrong. If I offered you evens on Japan and South Korea both qualifying, you may have made a good decision to tell me to go jump. Yet in hindsight that woukd have made you money. The bet was still bad odds. the told you so approach is used to show people they were wrong. However it doesn't show this explicitly. It doesn't even show Brexit was a bad idea. Just that a version of brexit was. And I suspect there are versions of remain that are a bad idea. Imo, we need to carry on understanding why people voted to leave, more under a bad Brexit, than ever. And that needs us to move away from saying they were wrong but both sides saying this is not one of the good brexits, but how can we adapt to make it better. Now some leave voters will only have one idea of Brexit in their head. That's hard to work with as that's like saying England will win 2-1. Guaranteed. But even then we can seek to understand why they think that rather than simply telling them they are wrong. And maybe help them see think about decisions in a more nuanced way (and remainers, before we get cocky, how many of us accepted that an EU army could happen, even with low likihood? How many of us thought if the pros and cons of Brexit under pandemic conditions. Or a war in Europe. I didn't. ) Some very good points there. I do understand some will always use the 'I told you so' approach though if the vote had gone the other way would leave voters be any different especially during recent events and challenges. I personally would like to see people working together rather than divided but that will not happen 100%. Reading the posts between fast and feisty with _irldn was heartening as its two people with opposing view points but actually able to put their case in a reasonable way" They don't have opposing viewpoints. They both voted to remain... The question still remains unanswered on this thread as to how we work together if people interpret relatively neutral phrases as in some way hostile. I think that we all understand the ideal but are now getting frustrated at others not communicating in a perfectly diplomatic way that nobody seems able to describe. | |||
"Honestly what's the point? Why keep bringing up Brexit rubbing your hands together with smug self satisfaction saying " told you so" Is this going to change anything?? If labour get in are they going to give the nation a second chance to vote? And even if that happens are the EU going to welcome us back open arms and a warm embrace? No. Unless you can persuade them to believe that the majority voted based on lies and that we where misled. So starting inflammatory threads such as this is nothing more than trying to start an argument. To use an old phrase. "No point crying over spilt milk" I've been trying to day exactly this on another thread but some people will just never understand. It does nothing but keep the country divided
If someone stole your wallet would you be cool about it. No point in creating division between you and the person who stole your money.
When your hands and tied in seeking any form of resolution then what is the point in sulking about it.
Im not sure about you but when that's the case for me, whether I like it or not, I move on, I'm not one to continue to allow it to affect my future.
Ps, note I said when my hands are tied. If I could do something about it, of course I'd try and resolve it. Division is bollocks though, i don't believe division does anyone any good.
You make a good point but just as anger and dissatisfaction with the UK led to vote Leave winning, so too now there is equal anger and dissatisfaction at how things are working out. A lot of people are still angry at this huge act of self harm. I doubt many can let go yet. And generally the only ones telling them to let it go are those who voted Leave and caused this mess in the first place. Those people don’t want to be reminded that, in the majority of people’s minds now, they made a mistake and got it wrong.
I fear brexit related arguments will run for years.
But it is still nice to see a great ass in an avatar
Well you put it much better than some of the others. I get that people are angry, I'm with them. What I don't understand is why they feel the need to continually try to divide us by pointing everything out, maybe its their delivery method that I don't get.
I just don't see that making these posts everyday does anything else, we, as a populace can't change what is now happening so arguing amongst ourselves achieves nothing.
I'll pass on your approval of the wife's ass
I think it is admirable to try and bring harmony but I doubt that will be possible for some time yet. It is too raw, recent, and the negative impact is being felt right now. People are suffering and it has been made a lot worse by brexit.
As another poster just said, ideally we would all work together to make the best of a bad situation, but again there are deep wounds due to the vociferous and spiteful nature of the debate for many years. Name calling on both sides. Implication that people who disagreed with you were idiots/thick.
As a remain voter I cringed at the approach taken by many (inc myself from time-to-time). There was an air of superiority coming from many in the Remain camp that triggered and entrenched many in the Leave camp.
The whole period is a dark time for our society with division sowed, exploited and left to fester.
Sad times!
The air of superiority is still there. Maybe that's what bothers me. It cant just be me that can't stand those people. Maybe that's what triggers me.
What are the words that communicate that?
How is "superiority" different to "frustration" when the even now the consequences are being denied?
Do you ever have anything to add or is it always just questions?
Superiority and frustration are definitely different in the delivery of written words.
Actually, I'm waiting for you to behave as you are telling others to do.
Rather than antagonise me further as someone who disagrees with you, please explain how how we achieve bringing together the two sides and resolving the failures of Brexit.
That's the only thing of substance here. You're asking people to change their behaviour, so please demonstrate how.
Perhaps you could indicate the difference between a "superior" tone and a "frustrated" tone in any of the posts here?
I'm asking you to walk the walk.
The start of trying to achieve bringing to sides together is to stop with the 'I told you so' I've said this many times, it's not my fault you refuse to listen.
Do you not see that you are literally writing what you are telling me not to?
Can you communicate the same advise in a way that would be more conciliatory?
You keep asking the same question and getting the same answer. Do you feel I replying to you in a superior manner?
If so, I apologise for that as it's definitely not my intention."This is the point that I've been trying to demonstrate. You haven't interpreted anything that you have written as in any way unreasonable. It is not, particularly. However, it can be interpreted as evasive and superior even if that was not your intent. You see why delivering on what you are asking for is so hard to achieve? | |||
"Honestly what's the point? Why keep bringing up Brexit rubbing your hands together with smug self satisfaction saying " told you so" Is this going to change anything?? If labour get in are they going to give the nation a second chance to vote? And even if that happens are the EU going to welcome us back open arms and a warm embrace? No. Unless you can persuade them to believe that the majority voted based on lies and that we where misled. So starting inflammatory threads such as this is nothing more than trying to start an argument. To use an old phrase. "No point crying over spilt milk" I've been trying to day exactly this on another thread but some people will just never understand. It does nothing but keep the country divided
If someone stole your wallet would you be cool about it. No point in creating division between you and the person who stole your money.
When your hands and tied in seeking any form of resolution then what is the point in sulking about it.
Im not sure about you but when that's the case for me, whether I like it or not, I move on, I'm not one to continue to allow it to affect my future.
Ps, note I said when my hands are tied. If I could do something about it, of course I'd try and resolve it. Division is bollocks though, i don't believe division does anyone any good.
You make a good point but just as anger and dissatisfaction with the UK led to vote Leave winning, so too now there is equal anger and dissatisfaction at how things are working out. A lot of people are still angry at this huge act of self harm. I doubt many can let go yet. And generally the only ones telling them to let it go are those who voted Leave and caused this mess in the first place. Those people don’t want to be reminded that, in the majority of people’s minds now, they made a mistake and got it wrong.
I fear brexit related arguments will run for years.
But it is still nice to see a great ass in an avatar
Well you put it much better than some of the others. I get that people are angry, I'm with them. What I don't understand is why they feel the need to continually try to divide us by pointing everything out, maybe its their delivery method that I don't get.
I just don't see that making these posts everyday does anything else, we, as a populace can't change what is now happening so arguing amongst ourselves achieves nothing.
I'll pass on your approval of the wife's ass
I think it is admirable to try and bring harmony but I doubt that will be possible for some time yet. It is too raw, recent, and the negative impact is being felt right now. People are suffering and it has been made a lot worse by brexit.
As another poster just said, ideally we would all work together to make the best of a bad situation, but again there are deep wounds due to the vociferous and spiteful nature of the debate for many years. Name calling on both sides. Implication that people who disagreed with you were idiots/thick.
As a remain voter I cringed at the approach taken by many (inc myself from time-to-time). There was an air of superiority coming from many in the Remain camp that triggered and entrenched many in the Leave camp.
The whole period is a dark time for our society with division sowed, exploited and left to fester.
Sad times!
The air of superiority is still there. Maybe that's what bothers me. It cant just be me that can't stand those people. Maybe that's what triggers me.
What are the words that communicate that?
How is "superiority" different to "frustration" when the even now the consequences are being denied?
Do you ever have anything to add or is it always just questions?
Superiority and frustration are definitely different in the delivery of written words.
Actually, I'm waiting for you to behave as you are telling others to do.
Rather than antagonise me further as someone who disagrees with you, please explain how how we achieve bringing together the two sides and resolving the failures of Brexit.
That's the only thing of substance here. You're asking people to change their behaviour, so please demonstrate how.
Perhaps you could indicate the difference between a "superior" tone and a "frustrated" tone in any of the posts here?
I'm asking you to walk the walk.
The start of trying to achieve bringing to sides together is to stop with the 'I told you so' I've said this many times, it's not my fault you refuse to listen.
Do you not see that you are literally writing what you are telling me not to?
Can you communicate the same advise in a way that would be more conciliatory?
You keep asking the same question and getting the same answer. Do you feel I replying to you in a superior manner?
If so, I apologise for that as it's definitely not my intention.
This is the point that I've been trying to demonstrate.
You haven't interpreted anything that you have written as in any way unreasonable.
It is not, particularly. However, it can be interpreted as evasive and superior even if that was not your intent.
You see why delivering on what you are asking for is so hard to achieve?"Do you genuinely believe 'I told you so' can be interpreted in any other way? All I've been asking is for that to stop, if that stopped I really do believe that would bring us closer. | |||
"I've been doing much thinking on this. Defining Brexit as good or bad is decisive. Even if people had the same "facts" during the referendum they may still have different views. A hgv driver struggling to feed their family may put a lot more weight on the chance Brexit would improve his pay compared to a middle class student with hopes of studying in Italy. Some value increases autonomy (badged as sovereignty) even if it pushes up prices. That doesn't make them wrong. Your vote is personal secondly, just because this version of Brexit seems to be overall bad doesn't mean your decision was wrong. If I offered you evens on Japan and South Korea both qualifying, you may have made a good decision to tell me to go jump. Yet in hindsight that woukd have made you money. The bet was still bad odds. the told you so approach is used to show people they were wrong. However it doesn't show this explicitly. It doesn't even show Brexit was a bad idea. Just that a version of brexit was. And I suspect there are versions of remain that are a bad idea. Imo, we need to carry on understanding why people voted to leave, more under a bad Brexit, than ever. And that needs us to move away from saying they were wrong but both sides saying this is not one of the good brexits, but how can we adapt to make it better. Now some leave voters will only have one idea of Brexit in their head. That's hard to work with as that's like saying England will win 2-1. Guaranteed. But even then we can seek to understand why they think that rather than simply telling them they are wrong. And maybe help them see think about decisions in a more nuanced way (and remainers, before we get cocky, how many of us accepted that an EU army could happen, even with low likihood? How many of us thought if the pros and cons of Brexit under pandemic conditions. Or a war in Europe. I didn't. ) Thank you for actually addressing where this thread has got to. I actually do agree that telling people that they are wrong or stupid doesn't help. However, it seems that the act of identifying any negative consequence is labelled as "negative", "superior" or "unpatriotic". However cautiously that is out. We know that those voting for Brexit voted for their own personal interpretation of what it would be from ultra soft to complete isolation. As far as I can tell, nobody who voted for Brexit got anything resembling what they wanted. How do you solve any problem without acknowledging it? Unfortunately the only way seems to be to suffer the worst consequences, but even now there is a lot of work being put into denying even this. Who on this thread or on the wider press are actually saying that those who voted leave were "wrong"? I, personally, want it fixed as best as is possible which probably means spending more money for less influence through the EEA than we previously had. Trump's softening of US backing for NATO made a move to tighter European defence coordination inevitable with a growing threat from Russia and our hostile rhetoric towards the EU. Did our split make the attack on Ukraine more or less likely? One of those complicated counterfactuals to try to work out. I fully understand those who want a more nuanced discussion on the topic but see no advice on how to achieve it. Could we start there?" for an example, see the OP. It may not be it's intent, but it has the tone of someone saying justify yourself. Many other threads imo have a similar energy, and I say that as a someone who voted remain. Now, the content of people's questions may be valid, but the context is important. The same point can be written in many ways. Maybe I'm being sensitive on behalf of others. I should ask leave voters if they feel they are being told they were wrong. And then understand why. (it's a slightly nuanced position to say it's consistent to say it's both right for me to vote remain and someone else to vote leave. Politics ATM appears to be v black and white, right and wrong) step one: acknowledge this flavour of brexit was not inevitable. Likewise some of the consequences weren't inevitable step 2. Recognise that losing a bet doesn't mean taking the bet was wrong. step 3: gain understanding of what "good" and "bad" means. It's personal. Step 4 o back to understanding why ppl voted to leave without trying to show that is incorrect. And do some work to really understand why they they they think that. It's starting again in many ways, but with the difference of we know where we landed with Brexit. But we must allow a conversation that isn't always about doing a post mortem on their decision. That's a lot of work. It's not going to sell papers or get clicks. But if we want progress it's where we need to go. B | |||
"Honestly what's the point? Why keep bringing up Brexit rubbing your hands together with smug self satisfaction saying " told you so" Is this going to change anything?? If labour get in are they going to give the nation a second chance to vote? And even if that happens are the EU going to welcome us back open arms and a warm embrace? No. Unless you can persuade them to believe that the majority voted based on lies and that we where misled. So starting inflammatory threads such as this is nothing more than trying to start an argument. To use an old phrase. "No point crying over spilt milk" I've been trying to day exactly this on another thread but some people will just never understand. It does nothing but keep the country divided
If someone stole your wallet would you be cool about it. No point in creating division between you and the person who stole your money.
When your hands and tied in seeking any form of resolution then what is the point in sulking about it.
Im not sure about you but when that's the case for me, whether I like it or not, I move on, I'm not one to continue to allow it to affect my future.
Ps, note I said when my hands are tied. If I could do something about it, of course I'd try and resolve it. Division is bollocks though, i don't believe division does anyone any good.
You make a good point but just as anger and dissatisfaction with the UK led to vote Leave winning, so too now there is equal anger and dissatisfaction at how things are working out. A lot of people are still angry at this huge act of self harm. I doubt many can let go yet. And generally the only ones telling them to let it go are those who voted Leave and caused this mess in the first place. Those people don’t want to be reminded that, in the majority of people’s minds now, they made a mistake and got it wrong.
I fear brexit related arguments will run for years.
But it is still nice to see a great ass in an avatar
Well you put it much better than some of the others. I get that people are angry, I'm with them. What I don't understand is why they feel the need to continually try to divide us by pointing everything out, maybe its their delivery method that I don't get.
I just don't see that making these posts everyday does anything else, we, as a populace can't change what is now happening so arguing amongst ourselves achieves nothing.
I'll pass on your approval of the wife's ass
I think it is admirable to try and bring harmony but I doubt that will be possible for some time yet. It is too raw, recent, and the negative impact is being felt right now. People are suffering and it has been made a lot worse by brexit.
As another poster just said, ideally we would all work together to make the best of a bad situation, but again there are deep wounds due to the vociferous and spiteful nature of the debate for many years. Name calling on both sides. Implication that people who disagreed with you were idiots/thick.
As a remain voter I cringed at the approach taken by many (inc myself from time-to-time). There was an air of superiority coming from many in the Remain camp that triggered and entrenched many in the Leave camp.
The whole period is a dark time for our society with division sowed, exploited and left to fester.
Sad times!
The air of superiority is still there. Maybe that's what bothers me. It cant just be me that can't stand those people. Maybe that's what triggers me.
What are the words that communicate that?
How is "superiority" different to "frustration" when the even now the consequences are being denied?
Do you ever have anything to add or is it always just questions?
Superiority and frustration are definitely different in the delivery of written words.
Actually, I'm waiting for you to behave as you are telling others to do.
Rather than antagonise me further as someone who disagrees with you, please explain how how we achieve bringing together the two sides and resolving the failures of Brexit.
That's the only thing of substance here. You're asking people to change their behaviour, so please demonstrate how.
Perhaps you could indicate the difference between a "superior" tone and a "frustrated" tone in any of the posts here?
I'm asking you to walk the walk.
The start of trying to achieve bringing to sides together is to stop with the 'I told you so' I've said this many times, it's not my fault you refuse to listen.
Do you not see that you are literally writing what you are telling me not to?
Can you communicate the same advise in a way that would be more conciliatory?
You keep asking the same question and getting the same answer. Do you feel I replying to you in a superior manner?
If so, I apologise for that as it's definitely not my intention.
This is the point that I've been trying to demonstrate.
You haven't interpreted anything that you have written as in any way unreasonable.
It is not, particularly. However, it can be interpreted as evasive and superior even if that was not your intent.
You see why delivering on what you are asking for is so hard to achieve?
Do you genuinely believe 'I told you so' can be interpreted in any other way?
All I've been asking is for that to stop, if that stopped I really do believe that would bring us closer. "What does "stop" look like? Should we ignore the catastrophic impact of brexit. More and more comes to light all the time. I'm not sure why this shouldn't be discussed and recognised. | |||
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"This is starting to become an interesting discussion. Maybe because it is a bloody cold Sunday morning and we are all feeling more conciliatory? My observations (not properly thought through admittedly nor sufficiently well structured)... 1) The Brexit referendum was set up as a binary we win/you lose scenario. I very much blame Cameron and think he is the root cause for much of the ill feeling and societal divide. He was weak. He was running scared of UKIP and a pull to the right in the Tory party. He bottled it (and legged it leaving others to clean up his mess). 2) The footballisation of politics was accelerated by that referendum. Tribalism (also encouraged and fostered by the exponential growth of social media) meant that nuance and shades of grey in political debate was severely eroded. It all became about a winning team and a losing team. 3) Many (not remotely all) people who voted Leave did so (and admitted as much after) to “stick it to the establishment” and/or to “protest against austerity and the Cameron govt” (who was a remainer). People admitted to thinking the vote result would not be Leave! 4) The referendum was advisory! It did not need acting on OR AT VERY LEAST considering the huge impact it would have it should have resulted in a second referendum on what the new relationship with the EU should be BECAUSE THERE WAS NO CONSENSUS! But again Cameron bottled it and ran away. 5) Generally the Remain camp was full of “metropolitan elite” who wanted to maintain the status quo because generally they had done ok in life helped by that status quo. 6) Generally the Leave camp consisted of people who were not doing so well and were looking for something/someone to blame. This was weaponised by those driving for Brexit (the ones who would/have done well out of it). 7) The former, generally, had a rather patronising sneer towards the later causing the later to entrench and when Leave “won” they gloated, very heavily. Victory is, afterall, sweet! 8) Now the shitstorm is coming home to roost, and reality is sinking in, project fear is clearly in most cases becoming project reality (including, incredibly, war in Europe), those Remainers who were themselves sneered at, laughed at, told they “lost get over it” are pointing and saying “I told you so!” 9) And the problem is, the damage is permanent and we will never regain what we had before. Any future relationship with the EU will be poorer/weaker than we previously had. 10) That angers people because everyone was warned, except the way in which those warnings were given were, very often, delivered in the wrong way! All very sad! " Well said, and I agree, a very sad situation. The country can’t move forward until we admit Brexit isn’t working and find a solution to fix it, unfortunately that will be difficult because we have so many people with different ‘versions’ of Brexit | |||
"This is starting to become an interesting discussion. Maybe because it is a bloody cold Sunday morning and we are all feeling more conciliatory? My observations (not properly thought through admittedly nor sufficiently well structured)... 1) The Brexit referendum was set up as a binary we win/you lose scenario. I very much blame Cameron and think he is the root cause for much of the ill feeling and societal divide. He was weak. He was running scared of UKIP and a pull to the right in the Tory party. He bottled it (and legged it leaving others to clean up his mess). 2) The footballisation of politics was accelerated by that referendum. Tribalism (also encouraged and fostered by the exponential growth of social media) meant that nuance and shades of grey in political debate was severely eroded. It all became about a winning team and a losing team. 3) Many (not remotely all) people who voted Leave did so (and admitted as much after) to “stick it to the establishment” and/or to “protest against austerity and the Cameron govt” (who was a remainer). People admitted to thinking the vote result would not be Leave! 4) The referendum was advisory! It did not need acting on OR AT VERY LEAST considering the huge impact it would have it should have resulted in a second referendum on what the new relationship with the EU should be BECAUSE THERE WAS NO CONSENSUS! But again Cameron bottled it and ran away. 5) Generally the Remain camp was full of “metropolitan elite” who wanted to maintain the status quo because generally they had done ok in life helped by that status quo. 6) Generally the Leave camp consisted of people who were not doing so well and were looking for something/someone to blame. This was weaponised by those driving for Brexit (the ones who would/have done well out of it). 7) The former, generally, had a rather patronising sneer towards the later causing the later to entrench and when Leave “won” they gloated, very heavily. Victory is, afterall, sweet! 8) Now the shitstorm is coming home to roost, and reality is sinking in, project fear is clearly in most cases becoming project reality (including, incredibly, war in Europe), those Remainers who were themselves sneered at, laughed at, told they “lost get over it” are pointing and saying “I told you so!” 9) And the problem is, the damage is permanent and we will never regain what we had before. Any future relationship with the EU will be poorer/weaker than we previously had. 10) That angers people because everyone was warned, except the way in which those warnings were given were, very often, delivered in the wrong way! All very sad! " And breathe | |||
"This is starting to become an interesting discussion. Maybe because it is a bloody cold Sunday morning and we are all feeling more conciliatory? My observations (not properly thought through admittedly nor sufficiently well structured)... 1) The Brexit referendum was set up as a binary we win/you lose scenario. I very much blame Cameron and think he is the root cause for much of the ill feeling and societal divide. He was weak. He was running scared of UKIP and a pull to the right in the Tory party. He bottled it (and legged it leaving others to clean up his mess). 2) The footballisation of politics was accelerated by that referendum. Tribalism (also encouraged and fostered by the exponential growth of social media) meant that nuance and shades of grey in political debate was severely eroded. It all became about a winning team and a losing team. 3) Many (not remotely all) people who voted Leave did so (and admitted as much after) to “stick it to the establishment” and/or to “protest against austerity and the Cameron govt” (who was a remainer). People admitted to thinking the vote result would not be Leave! 4) The referendum was advisory! It did not need acting on OR AT VERY LEAST considering the huge impact it would have it should have resulted in a second referendum on what the new relationship with the EU should be BECAUSE THERE WAS NO CONSENSUS! But again Cameron bottled it and ran away. 5) Generally the Remain camp was full of “metropolitan elite” who wanted to maintain the status quo because generally they had done ok in life helped by that status quo. 6) Generally the Leave camp consisted of people who were not doing so well and were looking for something/someone to blame. This was weaponised by those driving for Brexit (the ones who would/have done well out of it). 7) The former, generally, had a rather patronising sneer towards the later causing the later to entrench and when Leave “won” they gloated, very heavily. Victory is, afterall, sweet! 8) Now the shitstorm is coming home to roost, and reality is sinking in, project fear is clearly in most cases becoming project reality (including, incredibly, war in Europe), those Remainers who were themselves sneered at, laughed at, told they “lost get over it” are pointing and saying “I told you so!” 9) And the problem is, the damage is permanent and we will never regain what we had before. Any future relationship with the EU will be poorer/weaker than we previously had. 10) That angers people because everyone was warned, except the way in which those warnings were given were, very often, delivered in the wrong way! All very sad! And breathe "
I am less angry than I was. As other posters have said, it is what it is now. I doubt I will ever fully forgive but life has to go on and the damage is done.
What would help me to move forward is genuine honest stories of people up and down the country explaining how brexit has had a positive impact on their life? There must be some ordinary people who have benefitted (I know some hedge funds and disaster capitalists have done very well). So far it all appears negative. | |||
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"This is starting to become an interesting discussion. Maybe because it is a bloody cold Sunday morning and we are all feeling more conciliatory? My observations (not properly thought through admittedly nor sufficiently well structured)... 1) The Brexit referendum was set up as a binary we win/you lose scenario. I very much blame Cameron and think he is the root cause for much of the ill feeling and societal divide. He was weak. He was running scared of UKIP and a pull to the right in the Tory party. He bottled it (and legged it leaving others to clean up his mess). 2) The footballisation of politics was accelerated by that referendum. Tribalism (also encouraged and fostered by the exponential growth of social media) meant that nuance and shades of grey in political debate was severely eroded. It all became about a winning team and a losing team. 3) Many (not remotely all) people who voted Leave did so (and admitted as much after) to “stick it to the establishment” and/or to “protest against austerity and the Cameron govt” (who was a remainer). People admitted to thinking the vote result would not be Leave! 4) The referendum was advisory! It did not need acting on OR AT VERY LEAST considering the huge impact it would have it should have resulted in a second referendum on what the new relationship with the EU should be BECAUSE THERE WAS NO CONSENSUS! But again Cameron bottled it and ran away. 5) Generally the Remain camp was full of “metropolitan elite” who wanted to maintain the status quo because generally they had done ok in life helped by that status quo. 6) Generally the Leave camp consisted of people who were not doing so well and were looking for something/someone to blame. This was weaponised by those driving for Brexit (the ones who would/have done well out of it). 7) The former, generally, had a rather patronising sneer towards the later causing the later to entrench and when Leave “won” they gloated, very heavily. Victory is, afterall, sweet! 8) Now the shitstorm is coming home to roost, and reality is sinking in, project fear is clearly in most cases becoming project reality (including, incredibly, war in Europe), those Remainers who were themselves sneered at, laughed at, told they “lost get over it” are pointing and saying “I told you so!” 9) And the problem is, the damage is permanent and we will never regain what we had before. Any future relationship with the EU will be poorer/weaker than we previously had. 10) That angers people because everyone was warned, except the way in which those warnings were given were, very often, delivered in the wrong way! All very sad! And breathe
I am less angry than I was. As other posters have said, it is what it is now. I doubt I will ever fully forgive but life has to go on and the damage is done.
What would help me to move forward is genuine honest stories of people up and down the country explaining how brexit has had a positive impact on their life? There must be some ordinary people who have benefitted (I know some hedge funds and disaster capitalists have done very well). So far it all appears negative."Well from a personal perspective the only positive impact is the effect it's had on the building trade and cheap labour, with many returning home the result is that wages have increased. But that's only good for us in building trade. The flip side is increased costs, and also the hospitality industry decimated through lack of "cheap labour" With many college leaver's opting to try and become influencers or computer game makers and shying away from manual labour. Leaving a void in certain industries unable to attract staff for low paid jobs. I imagine that with the cost of living crisis some of these jobs are going to be taken up by people taking on second jobs. I digress. | |||
"This is starting to become an interesting discussion. Maybe because it is a bloody cold Sunday morning and we are all feeling more conciliatory? My observations (not properly thought through admittedly nor sufficiently well structured)... 1) The Brexit referendum was set up as a binary we win/you lose scenario. I very much blame Cameron and think he is the root cause for much of the ill feeling and societal divide. He was weak. He was running scared of UKIP and a pull to the right in the Tory party. He bottled it (and legged it leaving others to clean up his mess). 2) The footballisation of politics was accelerated by that referendum. Tribalism (also encouraged and fostered by the exponential growth of social media) meant that nuance and shades of grey in political debate was severely eroded. It all became about a winning team and a losing team. 3) Many (not remotely all) people who voted Leave did so (and admitted as much after) to “stick it to the establishment” and/or to “protest against austerity and the Cameron govt” (who was a remainer). People admitted to thinking the vote result would not be Leave! 4) The referendum was advisory! It did not need acting on OR AT VERY LEAST considering the huge impact it would have it should have resulted in a second referendum on what the new relationship with the EU should be BECAUSE THERE WAS NO CONSENSUS! But again Cameron bottled it and ran away. 5) Generally the Remain camp was full of “metropolitan elite” who wanted to maintain the status quo because generally they had done ok in life helped by that status quo. 6) Generally the Leave camp consisted of people who were not doing so well and were looking for something/someone to blame. This was weaponised by those driving for Brexit (the ones who would/have done well out of it). 7) The former, generally, had a rather patronising sneer towards the later causing the later to entrench and when Leave “won” they gloated, very heavily. Victory is, afterall, sweet! 8) Now the shitstorm is coming home to roost, and reality is sinking in, project fear is clearly in most cases becoming project reality (including, incredibly, war in Europe), those Remainers who were themselves sneered at, laughed at, told they “lost get over it” are pointing and saying “I told you so!” 9) And the problem is, the damage is permanent and we will never regain what we had before. Any future relationship with the EU will be poorer/weaker than we previously had. 10) That angers people because everyone was warned, except the way in which those warnings were given were, very often, delivered in the wrong way! All very sad! And breathe
I am less angry than I was. As other posters have said, it is what it is now. I doubt I will ever fully forgive but life has to go on and the damage is done.
What would help me to move forward is genuine honest stories of people up and down the country explaining how brexit has had a positive impact on their life? There must be some ordinary people who have benefitted (I know some hedge funds and disaster capitalists have done very well). So far it all appears negative.
Well from a personal perspective the only positive impact is the effect it's had on the building trade and cheap labour, with many returning home the result is that wages have increased.
But that's only good for us in building trade.
The flip side is increased costs, and also the hospitality industry decimated through lack of "cheap labour"
With many college leaver's opting to try and become influencers or computer game makers and shying away from manual labour.
Leaving a void in certain industries unable to attract staff for low paid jobs.
I imagine that with the cost of living crisis some of these jobs are going to be taken up by people taking on second jobs.
I digress.
"Indeed but then any rise in wages is blamed (mostly wrongly on this occasion) by BoE for inflation which in turn wipes out the benefits of the pay rises. Salary increases due to EU folks going home was only ever going to be a short term benefit. | |||
"I've been doing much thinking on this. Defining Brexit as good or bad is decisive. Even if people had the same "facts" during the referendum they may still have different views. A hgv driver struggling to feed their family may put a lot more weight on the chance Brexit would improve his pay compared to a middle class student with hopes of studying in Italy. Some value increases autonomy (badged as sovereignty) even if it pushes up prices. That doesn't make them wrong. Your vote is personal secondly, just because this version of Brexit seems to be overall bad doesn't mean your decision was wrong. If I offered you evens on Japan and South Korea both qualifying, you may have made a good decision to tell me to go jump. Yet in hindsight that woukd have made you money. The bet was still bad odds. the told you so approach is used to show people they were wrong. However it doesn't show this explicitly. It doesn't even show Brexit was a bad idea. Just that a version of brexit was. And I suspect there are versions of remain that are a bad idea. Imo, we need to carry on understanding why people voted to leave, more under a bad Brexit, than ever. And that needs us to move away from saying they were wrong but both sides saying this is not one of the good brexits, but how can we adapt to make it better. Now some leave voters will only have one idea of Brexit in their head. That's hard to work with as that's like saying England will win 2-1. Guaranteed. But even then we can seek to understand why they think that rather than simply telling them they are wrong. And maybe help them see think about decisions in a more nuanced way (and remainers, before we get cocky, how many of us accepted that an EU army could happen, even with low likihood? How many of us thought if the pros and cons of Brexit under pandemic conditions. Or a war in Europe. I didn't. ) Some very good points there. I do understand some will always use the 'I told you so' approach though if the vote had gone the other way would leave voters be any different especially during recent events and challenges. I personally would like to see people working together rather than divided but that will not happen 100%. Reading the posts between fast and feisty with _irldn was heartening as its two people with opposing view points but actually able to put their case in a reasonable way They don't have opposing viewpoints. They both voted to remain... The question still remains unanswered on this thread as to how we work together if people interpret relatively neutral phrases as in some way hostile. I think that we all understand the ideal but are now getting frustrated at others not communicating in a perfectly diplomatic way that nobody seems able to describe." When I say different view points I was referring to how they deal with the result that neither wanted. It was good to see a sensible conversation with respect from both | |||
"I found at times, that the Remain camp were more interested in trying to take Farage down, rather than put forward reasoned arguments. Some of the TV debates were excruciatingly painful, and didn't gain anything." Farage ‘won’ the referendum but isn’t happy with Brexit, he obviously didn’t know what he was voting for | |||
"This is starting to become an interesting discussion. Maybe because it is a bloody cold Sunday morning and we are all feeling more conciliatory? My observations (not properly thought through admittedly nor sufficiently well structured)... 1) The Brexit referendum was set up as a binary we win/you lose scenario. I very much blame Cameron and think he is the root cause for much of the ill feeling and societal divide. He was weak. He was running scared of UKIP and a pull to the right in the Tory party. He bottled it (and legged it leaving others to clean up his mess). 2) The footballisation of politics was accelerated by that referendum. Tribalism (also encouraged and fostered by the exponential growth of social media) meant that nuance and shades of grey in political debate was severely eroded. It all became about a winning team and a losing team. 3) Many (not remotely all) people who voted Leave did so (and admitted as much after) to “stick it to the establishment” and/or to “protest against austerity and the Cameron govt” (who was a remainer). People admitted to thinking the vote result would not be Leave! 4) The referendum was advisory! It did not need acting on OR AT VERY LEAST considering the huge impact it would have it should have resulted in a second referendum on what the new relationship with the EU should be BECAUSE THERE WAS NO CONSENSUS! But again Cameron bottled it and ran away. 5) Generally the Remain camp was full of “metropolitan elite” who wanted to maintain the status quo because generally they had done ok in life helped by that status quo. 6) Generally the Leave camp consisted of people who were not doing so well and were looking for something/someone to blame. This was weaponised by those driving for Brexit (the ones who would/have done well out of it). 7) The former, generally, had a rather patronising sneer towards the later causing the later to entrench and when Leave “won” they gloated, very heavily. Victory is, afterall, sweet! 8) Now the shitstorm is coming home to roost, and reality is sinking in, project fear is clearly in most cases becoming project reality (including, incredibly, war in Europe), those Remainers who were themselves sneered at, laughed at, told they “lost get over it” are pointing and saying “I told you so!” 9) And the problem is, the damage is permanent and we will never regain what we had before. Any future relationship with the EU will be poorer/weaker than we previously had. 10) That angers people because everyone was warned, except the way in which those warnings were given were, very often, delivered in the wrong way! All very sad! " This is a really good post, in my opinion, although I think there was way more to points 5 & 6 than what's noted here. I voted to remain and while I despair of the leave voters that are still convinced they 'won' without being able to articulate exactly what it was they won (besides an advisory referendum), I'm reticent to place the blame at the feet of the conned rather than at the feet of the opportunistic bandits that conned them. | |||
8) The amount of self righteous threads seem to be from folk who still think all problems are due to the UK leaving the EU. As for war in Europe, you do understand that Putin invaded Crimea in 2014, long before the Brexit vote? Same goes for the Pro Russian dissidents in Moldova...That war has been a long time in the making and was caused more by Estonia, Latvia, and Lithuania joining NATO.
9) Britain is still in the top 5 countries in the world when it comes to soft power and influence. The Crown has a lot of influence around the globe, far more than our media will lead you to believe of course.
10) Exasperate would be a better description. When it comes to folk blaming Brexit they they appear (at last from what we've seen on here, to lack any sense of perspective. | |||
"This is starting to become an interesting discussion. Maybe because it is a bloody cold Sunday morning and we are all feeling more conciliatory? My observations (not properly thought through admittedly nor sufficiently well structured)... 1) The Brexit referendum was set up as a binary we win/you lose scenario. I very much blame Cameron and think he is the root cause for much of the ill feeling and societal divide. He was weak. He was running scared of UKIP and a pull to the right in the Tory party. He bottled it (and legged it leaving others to clean up his mess). 2) The footballisation of politics was accelerated by that referendum. Tribalism (also encouraged and fostered by the exponential growth of social media) meant that nuance and shades of grey in political debate was severely eroded. It all became about a winning team and a losing team. 3) Many (not remotely all) people who voted Leave did so (and admitted as much after) to “stick it to the establishment” and/or to “protest against austerity and the Cameron govt” (who was a remainer). People admitted to thinking the vote result would not be Leave! 4) The referendum was advisory! It did not need acting on OR AT VERY LEAST considering the huge impact it would have it should have resulted in a second referendum on what the new relationship with the EU should be BECAUSE THERE WAS NO CONSENSUS! But again Cameron bottled it and ran away. 5) Generally the Remain camp was full of “metropolitan elite” who wanted to maintain the status quo because generally they had done ok in life helped by that status quo. 6) Generally the Leave camp consisted of people who were not doing so well and were looking for something/someone to blame. This was weaponised by those driving for Brexit (the ones who would/have done well out of it). 7) The former, generally, had a rather patronising sneer towards the later causing the later to entrench and when Leave “won” they gloated, very heavily. Victory is, afterall, sweet! 8) Now the shitstorm is coming home to roost, and reality is sinking in, project fear is clearly in most cases becoming project reality (including, incredibly, war in Europe), those Remainers who were themselves sneered at, laughed at, told they “lost get over it” are pointing and saying “I told you so!” 9) And the problem is, the damage is permanent and we will never regain what we had before. Any future relationship with the EU will be poorer/weaker than we previously had. 10) That angers people because everyone was warned, except the way in which those warnings were given were, very often, delivered in the wrong way! All very sad! This is a really good post, in my opinion, although I think there was way more to points 5 & 6 than what's noted here. I voted to remain and while I despair of the leave voters that are still convinced they 'won' without being able to articulate exactly what it was they won (besides an advisory referendum), I'm reticent to place the blame at the feet of the conned rather than at the feet of the opportunistic bandits that conned them. " Oh there is waaaaaay more below all my points, including 5&6 but that would take me putting in some proper thinking rather than top of mind rant | |||
"We think its appalling politicians, poor government and establishment entities that are the cause of most problems these days. The Bank of England didn't touch interest rats for 7 years straight and they have always made at last one adjustment a year since 1975 (not counting 2002). 1) The establishment and media set Brexit up as a win/lose scenario. 2) The 'team' that lost was backed by some of the most powerful establishment organisations possible. Even the president of the USA at the time stuck his oar in. 3) Has a poll been done on the 17,410,742 people who voted to leave as to why they chose to do so? In many cases this prompted many people who don't ordinarily vote to actually engage in the democratic process for the first time. Neither of us had ever voted for anything in our lives until the referendum, and we both voted differently. 4) Yes it was advisory but no party would commit electoral suicide (except the LibDems) by backing down on their clear promises that it was 'up to you the British people to decide'. Hard to claim to be the oldest democracy when you make promises like that. Plus they thought with the whole establishment pushing for a remain that they would win anyway. 5) Says who? The Mrs voted to remain and she absolutely isn't part of any metropolitan elite. Hubby is from a poorer upbringing, but hardly looking to 'stick it to the establishment'. Besides, he's more the armour plating on a bulldozer and drive it through government buildings kind of guy. :D 6) More generalisations from the media being parroted? 7) In fairness it is nice when pretentious people lose.
8) The amount of self righteous threads seem to be from folk who still think all problems are due to the UK leaving the EU. As for war in Europe, you do understand that Putin invaded Crimea in 2014, long before the Brexit vote? Same goes for the Pro Russian dissidents in Moldova...That war has been a long time in the making and was caused more by Estonia, Latvia, and Lithuania joining NATO.
9) Britain is still in the top 5 countries in the world when it comes to soft power and influence. The Crown has a lot of influence around the globe, far more than our media will lead you to believe of course.
10) Exasperate would be a better description. When it comes to folk blaming Brexit they they appear (at last from what we've seen on here, to lack any sense of perspective. "Just realised you appear to be responding to the points I made. Too early to come back on that section by section but one quick response to point 5... That was why I used the word “generally” rather than “exclusively”. | |||
"Honestly what's the point? Why keep bringing up Brexit rubbing your hands together with smug self satisfaction saying " told you so" Is this going to change anything?? If labour get in are they going to give the nation a second chance to vote? And even if that happens are the EU going to welcome us back open arms and a warm embrace? No. Unless you can persuade them to believe that the majority voted based on lies and that we where misled. So starting inflammatory threads such as this is nothing more than trying to start an argument. To use an old phrase. "No point crying over spilt milk" I've been trying to day exactly this on another thread but some people will just never understand. It does nothing but keep the country divided
If someone stole your wallet would you be cool about it. No point in creating division between you and the person who stole your money.
When your hands and tied in seeking any form of resolution then what is the point in sulking about it.
Im not sure about you but when that's the case for me, whether I like it or not, I move on, I'm not one to continue to allow it to affect my future.
Ps, note I said when my hands are tied. If I could do something about it, of course I'd try and resolve it. Division is bollocks though, i don't believe division does anyone any good.
You make a good point but just as anger and dissatisfaction with the UK led to vote Leave winning, so too now there is equal anger and dissatisfaction at how things are working out. A lot of people are still angry at this huge act of self harm. I doubt many can let go yet. And generally the only ones telling them to let it go are those who voted Leave and caused this mess in the first place. Those people don’t want to be reminded that, in the majority of people’s minds now, they made a mistake and got it wrong.
I fear brexit related arguments will run for years.
But it is still nice to see a great ass in an avatar
Well you put it much better than some of the others. I get that people are angry, I'm with them. What I don't understand is why they feel the need to continually try to divide us by pointing everything out, maybe its their delivery method that I don't get.
I just don't see that making these posts everyday does anything else, we, as a populace can't change what is now happening so arguing amongst ourselves achieves nothing.
I'll pass on your approval of the wife's ass
I think it is admirable to try and bring harmony but I doubt that will be possible for some time yet. It is too raw, recent, and the negative impact is being felt right now. People are suffering and it has been made a lot worse by brexit.
As another poster just said, ideally we would all work together to make the best of a bad situation, but again there are deep wounds due to the vociferous and spiteful nature of the debate for many years. Name calling on both sides. Implication that people who disagreed with you were idiots/thick.
As a remain voter I cringed at the approach taken by many (inc myself from time-to-time). There was an air of superiority coming from many in the Remain camp that triggered and entrenched many in the Leave camp.
The whole period is a dark time for our society with division sowed, exploited and left to fester.
Sad times!
The air of superiority is still there. Maybe that's what bothers me. It cant just be me that can't stand those people. Maybe that's what triggers me.
What are the words that communicate that?
How is "superiority" different to "frustration" when the even now the consequences are being denied?
Do you ever have anything to add or is it always just questions?
Superiority and frustration are definitely different in the delivery of written words.
Actually, I'm waiting for you to behave as you are telling others to do.
Rather than antagonise me further as someone who disagrees with you, please explain how how we achieve bringing together the two sides and resolving the failures of Brexit.
That's the only thing of substance here. You're asking people to change their behaviour, so please demonstrate how.
Perhaps you could indicate the difference between a "superior" tone and a "frustrated" tone in any of the posts here?
I'm asking you to walk the walk.
The start of trying to achieve bringing to sides together is to stop with the 'I told you so' I've said this many times, it's not my fault you refuse to listen.
Do you not see that you are literally writing what you are telling me not to?
Can you communicate the same advise in a way that would be more conciliatory?
You keep asking the same question and getting the same answer. Do you feel I replying to you in a superior manner?
If so, I apologise for that as it's definitely not my intention.
This is the point that I've been trying to demonstrate.
You haven't interpreted anything that you have written as in any way unreasonable.
It is not, particularly. However, it can be interpreted as evasive and superior even if that was not your intent.
You see why delivering on what you are asking for is so hard to achieve?
Do you genuinely believe 'I told you so' can be interpreted in any other way?
All I've been asking is for that to stop, if that stopped I really do believe that would bring us closer. "I barely see any indication of "I told you so" in the press or wider society. Where are you looking? You have been asked by me and by another poster what "stop" looks like. According to you Brexit was overall a bad idea. According to you it is correct to point out what problems have been caused by Brexit. What you seem unable to do is provide any practical approach to explain how to point out these problems without upsetting the "winners" who continue to deny that there are any problems whatsoever. Any suggestions? What words do we avoid? How would you rewrite this OP, which is quite provocative, to make it acceptable? | |||
"I've been doing much thinking on this. Defining Brexit as good or bad is decisive. Even if people had the same "facts" during the referendum they may still have different views. A hgv driver struggling to feed their family may put a lot more weight on the chance Brexit would improve his pay compared to a middle class student with hopes of studying in Italy. Some value increases autonomy (badged as sovereignty) even if it pushes up prices. That doesn't make them wrong. Your vote is personal secondly, just because this version of Brexit seems to be overall bad doesn't mean your decision was wrong. If I offered you evens on Japan and South Korea both qualifying, you may have made a good decision to tell me to go jump. Yet in hindsight that woukd have made you money. The bet was still bad odds. the told you so approach is used to show people they were wrong. However it doesn't show this explicitly. It doesn't even show Brexit was a bad idea. Just that a version of brexit was. And I suspect there are versions of remain that are a bad idea. Imo, we need to carry on understanding why people voted to leave, more under a bad Brexit, than ever. And that needs us to move away from saying they were wrong but both sides saying this is not one of the good brexits, but how can we adapt to make it better. Now some leave voters will only have one idea of Brexit in their head. That's hard to work with as that's like saying England will win 2-1. Guaranteed. But even then we can seek to understand why they think that rather than simply telling them they are wrong. And maybe help them see think about decisions in a more nuanced way (and remainers, before we get cocky, how many of us accepted that an EU army could happen, even with low likihood? How many of us thought if the pros and cons of Brexit under pandemic conditions. Or a war in Europe. I didn't. ) Thank you for actually addressing where this thread has got to. I actually do agree that telling people that they are wrong or stupid doesn't help. However, it seems that the act of identifying any negative consequence is labelled as "negative", "superior" or "unpatriotic". However cautiously that is out. We know that those voting for Brexit voted for their own personal interpretation of what it would be from ultra soft to complete isolation. As far as I can tell, nobody who voted for Brexit got anything resembling what they wanted. How do you solve any problem without acknowledging it? Unfortunately the only way seems to be to suffer the worst consequences, but even now there is a lot of work being put into denying even this. Who on this thread or on the wider press are actually saying that those who voted leave were "wrong"? I, personally, want it fixed as best as is possible which probably means spending more money for less influence through the EEA than we previously had. Trump's softening of US backing for NATO made a move to tighter European defence coordination inevitable with a growing threat from Russia and our hostile rhetoric towards the EU. Did our split make the attack on Ukraine more or less likely? One of those complicated counterfactuals to try to work out. I fully understand those who want a more nuanced discussion on the topic but see no advice on how to achieve it. Could we start there?for an example, see the OP. It may not be it's intent, but it has the tone of someone saying justify yourself. Many other threads imo have a similar energy, and I say that as a someone who voted remain. Now, the content of people's questions may be valid, but the context is important. The same point can be written in many ways. Maybe I'm being sensitive on behalf of others. I should ask leave voters if they feel they are being told they were wrong. And then understand why. (it's a slightly nuanced position to say it's consistent to say it's both right for me to vote remain and someone else to vote leave. Politics ATM appears to be v black and white, right and wrong) step one: acknowledge this flavour of brexit was not inevitable. Likewise some of the consequences weren't inevitable step 2. Recognise that losing a bet doesn't mean taking the bet was wrong. step 3: gain understanding of what "good" and "bad" means. It's personal. Step 4 o back to understanding why ppl voted to leave without trying to show that is incorrect. And do some work to really understand why they they they think that. It's starting again in many ways, but with the difference of we know where we landed with Brexit. But we must allow a conversation that isn't always about doing a post mortem on their decision. That's a lot of work. It's not going to sell papers or get clicks. But if we want progress it's where we need to go. B" I agree that the OP was quite provocative, but how would you rewrite it? Do you think there is ever a response when people are invited to examine the negatives of their own position? It's something that everyone should do as a matter of course when coming to a conclusion, but very people do. The problem, I think, of your overall strategy is that it works if you spend time with one individual. On a one to one basis it makes complete sense. However, this is the main issue. There are a million different versions of Brexit that were voted for. As a consequence it is impossible to have a general discussion about any problems because, apparently, this isn't the Brexit that most people voted for which was the one which kept every benefit of being within the EU but no responsibilities or compromises. So all we need is the "right" version. Alternatively there is no negative from Brexit whatsoever. Any problems are to do with COVID and the war in Ukraine. Any negative consequences of Brexit on its own or exacerbating other issues just aren't happening. Right or wrong doesn't matter if you don't think there is a problem or you are just waiting for it all to come good. What generally happens is not an attempt to persuade, because that is only possible on a one to one basis. What is visible are in posts indicating a Brexit related problem and a question as to why anyone would want this. This could often be couched less provocatively but even in those posts defined in completely neutral terms the reaction is the same. It would seem that many people with relatively moderate views on Brexit are actually in genuine despair about the outcome and have given up trying to defend their choice because they feel humiliated at being lied to and defending those who lied to them. Perhaps I'm wrong, but the polling indicates otherwise. In contrast, there have been next to know posts or articles on Brexit benefits. Even the vaccine one was lacklustre and not ultimately true. You could argue that the progressively wider reporting of these negative outcomes has eventually had the outcome of causing progressively widespread acceptance that the "doomsters and gloomsters' were sadly correct in their predictions. Regardless, any discussion about Brexit or anything else, has to lead to self-reflection on a voting decision even if it is not overtly asked. | |||
"Honestly what's the point? Why keep bringing up Brexit rubbing your hands together with smug self satisfaction saying " told you so" Is this going to change anything?? If labour get in are they going to give the nation a second chance to vote? And even if that happens are the EU going to welcome us back open arms and a warm embrace? No. Unless you can persuade them to believe that the majority voted based on lies and that we where misled. So starting inflammatory threads such as this is nothing more than trying to start an argument. To use an old phrase. "No point crying over spilt milk" I've been trying to day exactly this on another thread but some people will just never understand. It does nothing but keep the country divided
If someone stole your wallet would you be cool about it. No point in creating division between you and the person who stole your money.
When your hands and tied in seeking any form of resolution then what is the point in sulking about it.
Im not sure about you but when that's the case for me, whether I like it or not, I move on, I'm not one to continue to allow it to affect my future.
Ps, note I said when my hands are tied. If I could do something about it, of course I'd try and resolve it. Division is bollocks though, i don't believe division does anyone any good.
You make a good point but just as anger and dissatisfaction with the UK led to vote Leave winning, so too now there is equal anger and dissatisfaction at how things are working out. A lot of people are still angry at this huge act of self harm. I doubt many can let go yet. And generally the only ones telling them to let it go are those who voted Leave and caused this mess in the first place. Those people don’t want to be reminded that, in the majority of people’s minds now, they made a mistake and got it wrong.
I fear brexit related arguments will run for years.
But it is still nice to see a great ass in an avatar
Well you put it much better than some of the others. I get that people are angry, I'm with them. What I don't understand is why they feel the need to continually try to divide us by pointing everything out, maybe its their delivery method that I don't get.
I just don't see that making these posts everyday does anything else, we, as a populace can't change what is now happening so arguing amongst ourselves achieves nothing.
I'll pass on your approval of the wife's ass
I think it is admirable to try and bring harmony but I doubt that will be possible for some time yet. It is too raw, recent, and the negative impact is being felt right now. People are suffering and it has been made a lot worse by brexit.
As another poster just said, ideally we would all work together to make the best of a bad situation, but again there are deep wounds due to the vociferous and spiteful nature of the debate for many years. Name calling on both sides. Implication that people who disagreed with you were idiots/thick.
As a remain voter I cringed at the approach taken by many (inc myself from time-to-time). There was an air of superiority coming from many in the Remain camp that triggered and entrenched many in the Leave camp.
The whole period is a dark time for our society with division sowed, exploited and left to fester.
Sad times!
The air of superiority is still there. Maybe that's what bothers me. It cant just be me that can't stand those people. Maybe that's what triggers me.
What are the words that communicate that?
How is "superiority" different to "frustration" when the even now the consequences are being denied?
Do you ever have anything to add or is it always just questions?
Superiority and frustration are definitely different in the delivery of written words.
Actually, I'm waiting for you to behave as you are telling others to do.
Rather than antagonise me further as someone who disagrees with you, please explain how how we achieve bringing together the two sides and resolving the failures of Brexit.
That's the only thing of substance here. You're asking people to change their behaviour, so please demonstrate how.
Perhaps you could indicate the difference between a "superior" tone and a "frustrated" tone in any of the posts here?
I'm asking you to walk the walk.
The start of trying to achieve bringing to sides together is to stop with the 'I told you so' I've said this many times, it's not my fault you refuse to listen.
Do you not see that you are literally writing what you are telling me not to?
Can you communicate the same advise in a way that would be more conciliatory?
You keep asking the same question and getting the same answer. Do you feel I replying to you in a superior manner?
If so, I apologise for that as it's definitely not my intention.
This is the point that I've been trying to demonstrate.
You haven't interpreted anything that you have written as in any way unreasonable.
It is not, particularly. However, it can be interpreted as evasive and superior even if that was not your intent.
You see why delivering on what you are asking for is so hard to achieve?
Do you genuinely believe 'I told you so' can be interpreted in any other way?
All I've been asking is for that to stop, if that stopped I really do believe that would bring us closer.
I barely see any indication of "I told you so" in the press or wider society. Where are you looking?
You have been asked by me and by another poster what "stop" looks like.
According to you Brexit was overall a bad idea. According to you it is correct to point out what problems have been caused by Brexit.
What you seem unable to do is provide any practical approach to explain how to point out these problems without upsetting the "winners" who continue to deny that there are any problems whatsoever.
Any suggestions? What words do we avoid? How would you rewrite this OP, which is quite provocative, to make it acceptable?"Not really sure why I need to explain what stop means, toddlers know the meaning of that word. You say you barely see 'I told you so' but at least to other remainers on here have said they see it too, maybe you're just not looking. I see a lot more on the Remain side saying 'I told you so' than I do Leavers denying any problems whatsoever. I'm writing this for the last time. If remainers stopped pushing every single negatives (and there's lots) in a condescending manner then I truly believe it would start to bridge the gap. I don't care that leavers voted to 'make this country worse' as people keep saying, I care about unity moving forwards. If you don't want unity, that's cool, but I disagree. | |||
"So ….there used to be loads of people on here who thought it was all going to be great -haven’t heard a peep from anyone recently -still trying to spot ONE single benefit of it-anyone got anything…? …….Anyone…….? " Well if I had shit loads in offshore accounts I wouldn't have to pay tax... | |||
| |||
"As a trucker before brexit I was getting just above the minimum wage. The reason was quite simply the hauliers could employ mostly east Europeans who didn't mind the money. Now my and many more truckers wages have doubled. Who can begrudge us this.tell me please I should not be happy with brexit." Where are your employers finding the extra money to pay you double the wages? | |||
"As a trucker before brexit I was getting just above the minimum wage. The reason was quite simply the hauliers could employ mostly east Europeans who didn't mind the money. Now my and many more truckers wages have doubled. Who can begrudge us this.tell me please I should not be happy with brexit." If you're happy to fuck over the rest of the country for a higher wage. Fair play for your honesty. | |||
"As a trucker before brexit I was getting just above the minimum wage. The reason was quite simply the hauliers could employ mostly east Europeans who didn't mind the money. Now my and many more truckers wages have doubled. Who can begrudge us this.tell me please I should not be happy with brexit. Where are your employers finding the extra money to pay you double the wages? " Do you genuinely believe he knows the answer to that? Or that he evens cares? Anyone who ships anything will have a best guess but unless we could see individual companies book then we're never gonna know the real answer to that question. | |||
| |||
"Many made lots of money out of us paying us pittance. Are you actually saying we don't deserve it.working up to 60 hrs a week. Did you ever stand us for us.did you actually know.or if you did know didn't care. Sheer selfishness. I'm OK Jack.sod the truckers lets keep In europe that's more important than those buggers earning a liveable wage." Lol Are you being intentionally ironic? | |||
"Many made lots of money out of us paying us pittance. Are you actually saying we don't deserve it.working up to 60 hrs a week. Did you ever stand us for us.did you actually know.or if you did know didn't care. Sheer selfishness. I'm OK Jack.sod the truckers lets keep In europe that's more important than those buggers earning a liveable wage." Your wage has increased due to a change in available Labour. There are regular strikes for more pay happening lately due to the cost of living and other issues. In both cases the extra wage needs to be funded which can in turn increase inflation and / or cut investment. Both situations have the same result of higher wages but sometimes are viewed differently | |||
"So ….there used to be loads of people on here who thought it was all going to be great -haven’t heard a peep from anyone recently -still trying to spot ONE single benefit of it-anyone got anything…? …….Anyone…….? " That's because we've accepted that we've left the EU and are getting on with our lives and not wasting our efforts on something that was decided over six years ago. | |||
"So ….there used to be loads of people on here who thought it was all going to be great -haven’t heard a peep from anyone recently -still trying to spot ONE single benefit of it-anyone got anything…? …….Anyone…….? That's because we've accepted that we've left the EU and are getting on with our lives and not wasting our efforts on something that was decided over six years ago." Maybe take a moment to see what impact your vote is having on us all. | |||
"Many made lots of money out of us paying us pittance. Are you actually saying we don't deserve it.working up to 60 hrs a week. Did you ever stand us for us.did you actually know.or if you did know didn't care. Sheer selfishness. I'm OK Jack.sod the truckers lets keep In europe that's more important than those buggers earning a liveable wage." You deserve the extra pay, did the UK have to leave the EU for you to get it? | |||
"Many made lots of money out of us paying us pittance. Are you actually saying we don't deserve it.working up to 60 hrs a week. Did you ever stand us for us.did you actually know.or if you did know didn't care. Sheer selfishness. I'm OK Jack.sod the truckers lets keep In europe that's more important than those buggers earning a liveable wage. You deserve the extra pay, did the UK have to leave the EU for you to get it? " depends first if you believe if it was supply and demand playing a large part in keeping it down. Feels like there are two questions. 1) has exiting the EU helped. 2) could the same result even achieved via different means while staying in the EU. | |||
"Many made lots of money out of us paying us pittance. Are you actually saying we don't deserve it.working up to 60 hrs a week. Did you ever stand us for us.did you actually know.or if you did know didn't care. Sheer selfishness. I'm OK Jack.sod the truckers lets keep In europe that's more important than those buggers earning a liveable wage. You deserve the extra pay, did the UK have to leave the EU for you to get it? depends first if you believe if it was supply and demand playing a large part in keeping it down. Feels like there are two questions. 1) has exiting the EU helped. 2) could the same result even achieved via different means while staying in the EU. " I think leaving the EU has created a shortage of drivers which has ‘helped’ them get better pay. Unfortunately , as we can see by the number of strikes, leaving the EU hasn’t helped other people get a deserved pay rise, | |||
"Honestly what's the point? Why keep bringing up Brexit rubbing your hands together with smug self satisfaction saying " told you so" Is this going to change anything?? If labour get in are they going to give the nation a second chance to vote? And even if that happens are the EU going to welcome us back open arms and a warm embrace? No. Unless you can persuade them to believe that the majority voted based on lies and that we where misled. So starting inflammatory threads such as this is nothing more than trying to start an argument. To use an old phrase. "No point crying over spilt milk" I've been trying to day exactly this on another thread but some people will just never understand. It does nothing but keep the country divided
If someone stole your wallet would you be cool about it. No point in creating division between you and the person who stole your money.
When your hands and tied in seeking any form of resolution then what is the point in sulking about it.
Im not sure about you but when that's the case for me, whether I like it or not, I move on, I'm not one to continue to allow it to affect my future.
Ps, note I said when my hands are tied. If I could do something about it, of course I'd try and resolve it. Division is bollocks though, i don't believe division does anyone any good.
You make a good point but just as anger and dissatisfaction with the UK led to vote Leave winning, so too now there is equal anger and dissatisfaction at how things are working out. A lot of people are still angry at this huge act of self harm. I doubt many can let go yet. And generally the only ones telling them to let it go are those who voted Leave and caused this mess in the first place. Those people don’t want to be reminded that, in the majority of people’s minds now, they made a mistake and got it wrong.
I fear brexit related arguments will run for years.
But it is still nice to see a great ass in an avatar
Well you put it much better than some of the others. I get that people are angry, I'm with them. What I don't understand is why they feel the need to continually try to divide us by pointing everything out, maybe its their delivery method that I don't get.
I just don't see that making these posts everyday does anything else, we, as a populace can't change what is now happening so arguing amongst ourselves achieves nothing.
I'll pass on your approval of the wife's ass
I think it is admirable to try and bring harmony but I doubt that will be possible for some time yet. It is too raw, recent, and the negative impact is being felt right now. People are suffering and it has been made a lot worse by brexit.
As another poster just said, ideally we would all work together to make the best of a bad situation, but again there are deep wounds due to the vociferous and spiteful nature of the debate for many years. Name calling on both sides. Implication that people who disagreed with you were idiots/thick.
As a remain voter I cringed at the approach taken by many (inc myself from time-to-time). There was an air of superiority coming from many in the Remain camp that triggered and entrenched many in the Leave camp.
The whole period is a dark time for our society with division sowed, exploited and left to fester.
Sad times!
The air of superiority is still there. Maybe that's what bothers me. It cant just be me that can't stand those people. Maybe that's what triggers me.
What are the words that communicate that?
How is "superiority" different to "frustration" when the even now the consequences are being denied?
Do you ever have anything to add or is it always just questions?
Superiority and frustration are definitely different in the delivery of written words.
Actually, I'm waiting for you to behave as you are telling others to do.
Rather than antagonise me further as someone who disagrees with you, please explain how how we achieve bringing together the two sides and resolving the failures of Brexit.
That's the only thing of substance here. You're asking people to change their behaviour, so please demonstrate how.
Perhaps you could indicate the difference between a "superior" tone and a "frustrated" tone in any of the posts here?
I'm asking you to walk the walk.
The start of trying to achieve bringing to sides together is to stop with the 'I told you so' I've said this many times, it's not my fault you refuse to listen.
Do you not see that you are literally writing what you are telling me not to?
Can you communicate the same advise in a way that would be more conciliatory?
You keep asking the same question and getting the same answer. Do you feel I replying to you in a superior manner?
If so, I apologise for that as it's definitely not my intention.
This is the point that I've been trying to demonstrate.
You haven't interpreted anything that you have written as in any way unreasonable.
It is not, particularly. However, it can be interpreted as evasive and superior even if that was not your intent.
You see why delivering on what you are asking for is so hard to achieve?
Do you genuinely believe 'I told you so' can be interpreted in any other way?
All I've been asking is for that to stop, if that stopped I really do believe that would bring us closer.
I barely see any indication of "I told you so" in the press or wider society. Where are you looking?
You have been asked by me and by another poster what "stop" looks like.
According to you Brexit was overall a bad idea. According to you it is correct to point out what problems have been caused by Brexit.
What you seem unable to do is provide any practical approach to explain how to point out these problems without upsetting the "winners" who continue to deny that there are any problems whatsoever.
Any suggestions? What words do we avoid? How would you rewrite this OP, which is quite provocative, to make it acceptable?
Not really sure why I need to explain what stop means, toddlers know the meaning of that word.
You say you barely see 'I told you so' but at least to other remainers on here have said they see it too, maybe you're just not looking.
I see a lot more on the Remain side saying 'I told you so' than I do Leavers denying any problems whatsoever.
I'm writing this for the last time.
If remainers stopped pushing every single negatives (and there's lots) in a condescending manner then I truly believe it would start to bridge the gap.
I don't care that leavers voted to 'make this country worse' as people keep saying, I care about unity moving forwards. If you don't want unity, that's cool, but I disagree."Again, it is apparent that what you perceive as "I told you so" is your own. You cannot define it, it seems. Pointing out problems is fine, according to you. Possibly even suggesting solutions. However, asking anyone to accept that there are problems to solve is unacceptable. Also some problems can be mentioned and others not, based on your own, secret, criteria. Also expecting something to be done is not acceptable because For that to be done a problem has to be acknowledged. That would be saying "I told you so" wouldn't it? So, how do you affect change if nobody has to acknowledge a problem or take responsibility for resolving it? | |||
"As a trucker before brexit I was getting just above the minimum wage. The reason was quite simply the hauliers could employ mostly east Europeans who didn't mind the money. Now my and many more truckers wages have doubled. Who can begrudge us this.tell me please I should not be happy with brexit." Your pay rose and so did your expenses. How much better off weer and are you? | |||
"As a trucker before brexit I was getting just above the minimum wage. The reason was quite simply the hauliers could employ mostly east Europeans who didn't mind the money. Now my and many more truckers wages have doubled. Who can begrudge us this.tell me please I should not be happy with brexit. Your pay rose and so did your expenses. How much better off weer and are you?" tbf if their wages have doubled, I doubt Brexit related expense increases have doubled for them. It will be interesting to hear their answer. | |||
"As a trucker before brexit I was getting just above the minimum wage. The reason was quite simply the hauliers could employ mostly east Europeans who didn't mind the money. Now my and many more truckers wages have doubled. Who can begrudge us this.tell me please I should not be happy with brexit. Your pay rose and so did your expenses. How much better off weer and are you?tbf if their wages have doubled, I doubt Brexit related expense increases have doubled for them. It will be interesting to hear their answer. " I get to have the odd chat with lorry drivers quite regularly and everyone has mentioned how much better of they are with big pay rises and additional benefits like health perks. Some say they still have vaccines for particular vehicles despite the higher pay. None have mentioned additional costs but most work for haulage companies and employed just to drive. I imagine if you were running your own vehicle then fuel costs have increased a lot. Yes it will be interesting to hear how it's worked out for this guy | |||
"As a trucker before brexit I was getting just above the minimum wage. The reason was quite simply the hauliers could employ mostly east Europeans who didn't mind the money. Now my and many more truckers wages have doubled. Who can begrudge us this.tell me please I should not be happy with brexit. Your pay rose and so did your expenses. How much better off weer and are you?tbf if their wages have doubled, I doubt Brexit related expense increases have doubled for them. It will be interesting to hear their answer. I get to have the odd chat with lorry drivers quite regularly and everyone has mentioned how much better of they are with big pay rises and additional benefits like health perks. Some say they still have vaccines for particular vehicles despite the higher pay. None have mentioned additional costs but most work for haulage companies and employed just to drive. I imagine if you were running your own vehicle then fuel costs have increased a lot. Yes it will be interesting to hear how it's worked out for this guy" I mean that the cost of living went up significantly even before the recent surges. Regardless, nothing justified the poor pay and conditions that logistics companies were offering. It is, however, a very low margin industry so any cost increase is directly passed on. Our expectation for low prices have driven low wages as much as labour competition. | |||
"As a trucker before brexit I was getting just above the minimum wage. The reason was quite simply the hauliers could employ mostly east Europeans who didn't mind the money. Now my and many more truckers wages have doubled. Who can begrudge us this.tell me please I should not be happy with brexit. Your pay rose and so did your expenses. How much better off weer and are you?tbf if their wages have doubled, I doubt Brexit related expense increases have doubled for them. It will be interesting to hear their answer. I get to have the odd chat with lorry drivers quite regularly and everyone has mentioned how much better of they are with big pay rises and additional benefits like health perks. Some say they still have vaccines for particular vehicles despite the higher pay. None have mentioned additional costs but most work for haulage companies and employed just to drive. I imagine if you were running your own vehicle then fuel costs have increased a lot. Yes it will be interesting to hear how it's worked out for this guy I mean that the cost of living went up significantly even before the recent surges. Regardless, nothing justified the poor pay and conditions that logistics companies were offering. It is, however, a very low margin industry so any cost increase is directly passed on. Our expectation for low prices have driven low wages as much as labour competition." Well I not asked them directly on their increased cost of living though the pay rises they talk about go far above the average increase in living costs. I agree that extra costs could well be passed on which has knock on effects. I see on other threads, not everyone agrees | |||
"As a trucker before brexit I was getting just above the minimum wage. The reason was quite simply the hauliers could employ mostly east Europeans who didn't mind the money. Now my and many more truckers wages have doubled. Who can begrudge us this.tell me please I should not be happy with brexit. Your pay rose and so did your expenses. How much better off weer and are you?tbf if their wages have doubled, I doubt Brexit related expense increases have doubled for them. It will be interesting to hear their answer. I get to have the odd chat with lorry drivers quite regularly and everyone has mentioned how much better of they are with big pay rises and additional benefits like health perks. Some say they still have vaccines for particular vehicles despite the higher pay. None have mentioned additional costs but most work for haulage companies and employed just to drive. I imagine if you were running your own vehicle then fuel costs have increased a lot. Yes it will be interesting to hear how it's worked out for this guy I mean that the cost of living went up significantly even before the recent surges. Regardless, nothing justified the poor pay and conditions that logistics companies were offering. It is, however, a very low margin industry so any cost increase is directly passed on. Our expectation for low prices have driven low wages as much as labour competition." Low prices are pushed by corporations agriculture for instance, supermarkets squeezing profits of farmers the next squeeze on income will be towards the work from home, employes could employ anyone from around the world sitting at home And legislation is being passed so this can happen. | |||
"As a trucker before brexit I was getting just above the minimum wage. The reason was quite simply the hauliers could employ mostly east Europeans who didn't mind the money. Now my and many more truckers wages have doubled. Who can begrudge us this.tell me please I should not be happy with brexit. Your pay rose and so did your expenses. How much better off weer and are you?tbf if their wages have doubled, I doubt Brexit related expense increases have doubled for them. It will be interesting to hear their answer. I get to have the odd chat with lorry drivers quite regularly and everyone has mentioned how much better of they are with big pay rises and additional benefits like health perks. Some say they still have vaccines for particular vehicles despite the higher pay. None have mentioned additional costs but most work for haulage companies and employed just to drive. I imagine if you were running your own vehicle then fuel costs have increased a lot. Yes it will be interesting to hear how it's worked out for this guy" And if he's comfortable fucking over the rest of the country for a wage increase. | |||
"As a trucker before brexit I was getting just above the minimum wage. The reason was quite simply the hauliers could employ mostly east Europeans who didn't mind the money. Now my and many more truckers wages have doubled. Who can begrudge us this.tell me please I should not be happy with brexit. Your pay rose and so did your expenses. How much better off weer and are you?tbf if their wages have doubled, I doubt Brexit related expense increases have doubled for them. It will be interesting to hear their answer. I get to have the odd chat with lorry drivers quite regularly and everyone has mentioned how much better of they are with big pay rises and additional benefits like health perks. Some say they still have vaccines for particular vehicles despite the higher pay. None have mentioned additional costs but most work for haulage companies and employed just to drive. I imagine if you were running your own vehicle then fuel costs have increased a lot. Yes it will be interesting to hear how it's worked out for this guy I mean that the cost of living went up significantly even before the recent surges. Regardless, nothing justified the poor pay and conditions that logistics companies were offering. It is, however, a very low margin industry so any cost increase is directly passed on. Our expectation for low prices have driven low wages as much as labour competition. Low prices are pushed by corporations agriculture for instance, supermarkets squeezing profits of farmers the next squeeze on income will be towards the work from home, employes could employ anyone from around the world sitting at home And legislation is being passed so this can happen." Does it not already. Some companies already using call centres in other countries? | |||
"As a trucker before brexit I was getting just above the minimum wage. The reason was quite simply the hauliers could employ mostly east Europeans who didn't mind the money. Now my and many more truckers wages have doubled. Who can begrudge us this.tell me please I should not be happy with brexit. Your pay rose and so did your expenses. How much better off weer and are you?tbf if their wages have doubled, I doubt Brexit related expense increases have doubled for them. It will be interesting to hear their answer. I get to have the odd chat with lorry drivers quite regularly and everyone has mentioned how much better of they are with big pay rises and additional benefits like health perks. Some say they still have vaccines for particular vehicles despite the higher pay. None have mentioned additional costs but most work for haulage companies and employed just to drive. I imagine if you were running your own vehicle then fuel costs have increased a lot. Yes it will be interesting to hear how it's worked out for this guy I mean that the cost of living went up significantly even before the recent surges. Regardless, nothing justified the poor pay and conditions that logistics companies were offering. It is, however, a very low margin industry so any cost increase is directly passed on. Our expectation for low prices have driven low wages as much as labour competition." don't disagree. But these are asides to his point that being out of the EU hasn't helped him. I haven't seen anything myself to refute his point. (I've not followed it closely since it was news, but did seem there was something in it that wages were going up because of Brexit) | |||
"As a trucker before brexit I was getting just above the minimum wage. The reason was quite simply the hauliers could employ mostly east Europeans who didn't mind the money. Now my and many more truckers wages have doubled. Who can begrudge us this.tell me please I should not be happy with brexit. Your pay rose and so did your expenses. How much better off weer and are you?tbf if their wages have doubled, I doubt Brexit related expense increases have doubled for them. It will be interesting to hear their answer. I get to have the odd chat with lorry drivers quite regularly and everyone has mentioned how much better of they are with big pay rises and additional benefits like health perks. Some say they still have vaccines for particular vehicles despite the higher pay. None have mentioned additional costs but most work for haulage companies and employed just to drive. I imagine if you were running your own vehicle then fuel costs have increased a lot. Yes it will be interesting to hear how it's worked out for this guy I mean that the cost of living went up significantly even before the recent surges. Regardless, nothing justified the poor pay and conditions that logistics companies were offering. It is, however, a very low margin industry so any cost increase is directly passed on. Our expectation for low prices have driven low wages as much as labour competition.don't disagree. But these are asides to his point that being out of the EU hasn't helped him. I haven't seen anything myself to refute his point. (I've not followed it closely since it was news, but did seem there was something in it that wages were going up because of Brexit)" If prices also go up because of Brexit for no net benefit then so what? I don't think that's true though. HGV pay is up 40%+ so will still be a good net gain which I wouldn't begrudge anyone. It seems to be a pretty isolated positive outcome though. Those cost have been passed on to everything (like energy) and is sadly also a driver of inflation. I'm a bit surprised that there are not more people training for these roles, which would balance the market but they are skilled and difficult hours. A benefit to some balanced by a cost to many. Probably somewhere in-between, but working conditions could have been legislated for without leaving the EU. | |||
"As a trucker before brexit I was getting just above the minimum wage. The reason was quite simply the hauliers could employ mostly east Europeans who didn't mind the money. Now my and many more truckers wages have doubled. Who can begrudge us this.tell me please I should not be happy with brexit. Your pay rose and so did your expenses. How much better off weer and are you?tbf if their wages have doubled, I doubt Brexit related expense increases have doubled for them. It will be interesting to hear their answer. I get to have the odd chat with lorry drivers quite regularly and everyone has mentioned how much better of they are with big pay rises and additional benefits like health perks. Some say they still have vaccines for particular vehicles despite the higher pay. None have mentioned additional costs but most work for haulage companies and employed just to drive. I imagine if you were running your own vehicle then fuel costs have increased a lot. Yes it will be interesting to hear how it's worked out for this guy I mean that the cost of living went up significantly even before the recent surges. Regardless, nothing justified the poor pay and conditions that logistics companies were offering. It is, however, a very low margin industry so any cost increase is directly passed on. Our expectation for low prices have driven low wages as much as labour competition.don't disagree. But these are asides to his point that being out of the EU hasn't helped him. I haven't seen anything myself to refute his point. (I've not followed it closely since it was news, but did seem there was something in it that wages were going up because of Brexit) If prices also go up because of Brexit for no net benefit then so what? I don't think that's true though. HGV pay is up 40%+ so will still be a good net gain which I wouldn't begrudge anyone. It seems to be a pretty isolated positive outcome though. Those cost have been passed on to everything (like energy) and is sadly also a driver of inflation. I'm a bit surprised that there are not more people training for these roles, which would balance the market but they are skilled and difficult hours. A benefit to some balanced by a cost to many. Probably somewhere in-between, but working conditions could have been legislated for without leaving the EU." Definitely a net benefit for the drivers, so they tell me. From what I'm told they are still short of drivers despite training on going for new drivers. Some of the conditions do not sound very appealing. I am told that conditions abroad for truck drivers are better but there may be more to it as Germany also have a big shortage of drivers | |||
