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The Next Labour Government
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"but he and Brown sorted the economy" Hmmm - he sold off 60% of the UK gold reserves at a knockdown price, separated fiscal responsibility so that the BoE could make an arse of things (deepening the 2007 recession), got rid of the 10p tax rate he introduced thus making 5m of the poorest people pay much more tax, brought in IR35 which has been a right pain ever since, etc.... So, excellent? | |||
"There will be one, eventually. Right now, it seems like sooner, rather than later. But what should they do, to make things better for UK voters, in the long term? Obviously, their leadership is opposed to PR, for UK GEs - but they should give it a go. Why? Firstly, it would mean that neither they, nor the Tories, would ever have a majority of seats in Westminster, without gaining the majority of the votes cast. That's just right and proper. Secondly, in the event that Labour get the chance to form a minority government, they would - on most issues - either enjoy the support, or the abstention, of any other party that didn't want to side with the Tories. Thirdly, the voters who favour smaller parties, like the LibDems, the Greens, the SNP would get the representation they deserve, in Westminster. You can argue, under FPTP, the SNP are over represented and the Greens under-represented; in UK terms. Finally, PR UK-wide would utterly remove the political case for Scottish independence; by giving the votes of Scots the same significance as everyone else's and, therefore, influence they have never enjoyed under FPTP. On the last point, you may wonder how Labour would benefit. Well, by having millions of voters, like me, returning to them, when they no longer have to be Tory-lite, in order to have any chance of power. Can't see any of that happening. So, I'll settle for the Tories being out on their arse. Hopefully, soon." We had a referendum on this about 10 years ago. We're sticking with 'First past the post' | |||
"I would just like to see a PM and politicians just quietly getting on with stuff that will benefit ordinary people. I think we have probably all had enough of being gaslit and divided, not to mention being experimented on with bullshit right-wing media propaganda. I’d go back to the days under Blair and Brown when GDP per capita was at its highest ever level, foodbanks hadn’t been invented and homelessness had all but been eradicated. Yes Blair made a mighty clusterfuck over Iraq, but he and Brown sorted the economy, the NHS and there was generally a feelgood factor that has not existed for the last 12 years." hahaha the divisions in this country can be traced right back to phoney blair,sorted the nhs lol more like saddled it with massive debt | |||
"I would just like to see a PM and politicians just quietly getting on with stuff that will benefit ordinary people. I think we have probably all had enough of being gaslit and divided, not to mention being experimented on with bullshit right-wing media propaganda. I’d go back to the days under Blair and Brown when GDP per capita was at its highest ever level, foodbanks hadn’t been invented and homelessness had all but been eradicated. Yes Blair made a mighty clusterfuck over Iraq, but he and Brown sorted the economy, the NHS and there was generally a feelgood factor that has not existed for the last 12 years.hahaha the divisions in this country can be traced right back to phoney blair,sorted the nhs lol more like saddled it with massive debt" And you keep pretending your not a Tory  | |||
"but he and Brown sorted the economy Hmmm - he sold off 60% of the UK gold reserves at a knockdown price, separated fiscal responsibility so that the BoE could make an arse of things (deepening the 2007 recession), got rid of the 10p tax rate he introduced thus making 5m of the poorest people pay much more tax, brought in IR35 which has been a right pain ever since, etc.... So, excellent?" He made a better job of being PM than thick Lizzie  | |||
"but he and Brown sorted the economy Hmmm - he sold off 60% of the UK gold reserves at a knockdown price, separated fiscal responsibility so that the BoE could make an arse of things (deepening the 2007 recession), got rid of the 10p tax rate he introduced thus making 5m of the poorest people pay much more tax, brought in IR35 which has been a right pain ever since, etc.... So, excellent?" GDP per capita was higher under Blair/Brown than it had ever been before, and incidentally since. By that matrix alone we were all richer under Blair/Brown and we have all become much poorer (as a country) in the last 12 years. | |||
"but he and Brown sorted the economy Hmmm - he sold off 60% of the UK gold reserves at a knockdown price, separated fiscal responsibility so that the BoE could make an arse of things (deepening the 2007 recession), got rid of the 10p tax rate he introduced thus making 5m of the poorest people pay much more tax, brought in IR35 which has been a right pain ever since, etc.... So, excellent? GDP per capita was higher under Blair/Brown than it had ever been before, and incidentally since. By that matrix alone we were all richer under Blair/Brown and we have all become much poorer (as a country) in the last 12 years. " And we all know that (according to the tories) is the most important measure of success  | |||
"I would just like to see a PM and politicians just quietly getting on with stuff that will benefit ordinary people. I think we have probably all had enough of being gaslit and divided, not to mention being experimented on with bullshit right-wing media propaganda. I’d go back to the days under Blair and Brown when GDP per capita was at its highest ever level, foodbanks hadn’t been invented and homelessness had all but been eradicated. Yes Blair made a mighty clusterfuck over Iraq, but he and Brown sorted the economy, the NHS and there was generally a feelgood factor that has not existed for the last 12 years." Yes I agree with you and there were some significant reforms under Blair/Brown including devolution / eradication hereditary peers etc - sure some big and costly mistakes but Blair had the largest majority in 20th century (179) to get things done and it was simply time to change “ things can only get better” slogan fairness to society and less division. A Tory 5th term in office is too long they are too tired and out of ideas and a period in opposition to sharpen is no bad thing for any party whatever your political persuasion. To make things happen though we need some of those 11m eligible voters who still did not vote 2019 to make sure they do. | |||
"I would just like to see a PM and politicians just quietly getting on with stuff that will benefit ordinary people. I think we have probably all had enough of being gaslit and divided, not to mention being experimented on with bullshit right-wing media propaganda. I’d go back to the days under Blair and Brown when GDP per capita was at its highest ever level, foodbanks hadn’t been invented and homelessness had all but been eradicated. Yes Blair made a mighty clusterfuck over Iraq, but he and Brown sorted the economy, the NHS and there was generally a feelgood factor that has not existed for the last 12 years.hahaha the divisions in this country can be traced right back to phoney blair,sorted the nhs lol more like saddled it with massive debt And you keep pretending your not a Tory "and u keep replying to me even though i e asked you not to converse with me, and how the fuck can i be a tory i dont vote ya clown but good try anyway flab | |||
"I would just like to see a PM and politicians just quietly getting on with stuff that will benefit ordinary people. I think we have probably all had enough of being gaslit and divided, not to mention being experimented on with bullshit right-wing media propaganda. I’d go back to the days under Blair and Brown when GDP per capita was at its highest ever level, foodbanks hadn’t been invented and homelessness had all but been eradicated. Yes Blair made a mighty clusterfuck over Iraq, but he and Brown sorted the economy, the NHS and there was generally a feelgood factor that has not existed for the last 12 years.hahaha the divisions in this country can be traced right back to phoney blair,sorted the nhs lol more like saddled it with massive debt And you keep pretending your not a Tory and u keep replying to me even though i e asked you not to converse with me, and how the fuck can i be a tory i dont vote ya clown but good try anyway flab"Always defending the Tories and Brexit | |||
"I would just like to see a PM and politicians just quietly getting on with stuff that will benefit ordinary people. I think we have probably all had enough of being gaslit and divided, not to mention being experimented on with bullshit right-wing media propaganda. I’d go back to the days under Blair and Brown when GDP per capita was at its highest ever level, foodbanks hadn’t been invented and homelessness had all but been eradicated. Yes Blair made a mighty clusterfuck over Iraq, but he and Brown sorted the economy, the NHS and there was generally a feelgood factor that has not existed for the last 12 years.hahaha the divisions in this country can be traced right back to phoney blair,sorted the nhs lol more like saddled it with massive debt And you keep pretending your not a Tory and u keep replying to me even though i e asked you not to converse with me, and how the fuck can i be a tory i dont vote ya clown but good try anyway flab
Always defending the Tories and Brexit "where in that post did i defend the torys? And as for brexit i coulbnt of cared less if we had stayed or left, do i laugh at those on here who bang on about it constantly damn right i do because i think people moaning about stuff they cant change is amusing, now once again can you not interact with me anymore, dont know how much simpler i can put it xx | |||
"I would just like to see a PM and politicians just quietly getting on with stuff that will benefit ordinary people. I think we have probably all had enough of being gaslit and divided, not to mention being experimented on with bullshit right-wing media propaganda. I’d go back to the days under Blair and Brown when GDP per capita was at its highest ever level, foodbanks hadn’t been invented and homelessness had all but been eradicated. Yes Blair made a mighty clusterfuck over Iraq, but he and Brown sorted the economy, the NHS and there was generally a feelgood factor that has not existed for the last 12 years.hahaha the divisions in this country can be traced right back to phoney blair,sorted the nhs lol more like saddled it with massive debt And you keep pretending your not a Tory and u keep replying to me even though i e asked you not to converse with me, and how the fuck can i be a tory i dont vote ya clown but good try anyway flab
Always defending the Tories and Brexit where in that post did i defend the torys? And as for brexit i coulbnt of cared less if we had stayed or left, do i laugh at those on here who bang on about it constantly damn right i do because i think people moaning about stuff they cant change is amusing, now once again can you not interact with me anymore, dont know how much simpler i can put it xx" | |||
"I would just like to see a PM and politicians just quietly getting on with stuff that will benefit ordinary people. I think we have probably all had enough of being gaslit and divided, not to mention being experimented on with bullshit right-wing media propaganda. I’d go back to the days under Blair and Brown when GDP per capita was at its highest ever level, foodbanks hadn’t been invented and homelessness had all but been eradicated. Yes Blair made a mighty clusterfuck over Iraq, but he and Brown sorted the economy, the NHS and there was generally a feelgood factor that has not existed for the last 12 years." But if, and I stress if, a Tory PM delivered this, I suspect that you may might not be happy because it were a Tory. Similarly, Tory supporters wouldn't be happy if paradise were delivered by a Labour PM. Tribalism is the problem. More concerned about the party than the people in my opinion | |||
"There will be one, eventually. Right now, it seems like sooner, rather than later. But what should they do, to make things better for UK voters, in the long term? Obviously, their leadership is opposed to PR, for UK GEs - but they should give it a go. Why? Firstly, it would mean that neither they, nor the Tories, would ever have a majority of seats in Westminster, without gaining the majority of the votes cast. That's just right and proper. Secondly, in the event that Labour get the chance to form a minority government, they would - on most issues - either enjoy the support, or the abstention, of any other party that didn't want to side with the Tories. Thirdly, the voters who favour smaller parties, like the LibDems, the Greens, the SNP would get the representation they deserve, in Westminster. You can argue, under FPTP, the SNP are over represented and the Greens under-represented; in UK terms. Finally, PR UK-wide would utterly remove the political case for Scottish independence; by giving the votes of Scots the same significance as everyone else's and, therefore, influence they have never enjoyed under FPTP. On the last point, you may wonder how Labour would benefit. Well, by having millions of voters, like me, returning to them, when they no longer have to be Tory-lite, in order to have any chance of power. Can't see any of that happening. So, I'll settle for the Tories being out on their arse. Hopefully, soon." Some very good points in there about PP and I would welcome that change to our system. Only thing I would point out is the smaller parties having more representation and influence. This is true but would be true for all smaller parties, some of which may not be as palatable as the greens and libs | |||
"There will be one, eventually. Right now, it seems like sooner, rather than later. But what should they do, to make things better for UK voters, in the long term? Obviously, their leadership is opposed to PR, for UK GEs - but they should give it a go. Why? Firstly, it would mean that neither they, nor the Tories, would ever have a majority of seats in Westminster, without gaining the majority of the votes cast. That's just right and proper. Secondly, in the event that Labour get the chance to form a minority government, they would - on most issues - either enjoy the support, or the abstention, of any other party that didn't want to side with the Tories. Thirdly, the voters who favour smaller parties, like the LibDems, the Greens, the SNP would get the representation they deserve, in Westminster. You can argue, under FPTP, the SNP are over represented and the Greens under-represented; in UK terms. Finally, PR UK-wide would utterly remove the political case for Scottish independence; by giving the votes of Scots the same significance as everyone else's and, therefore, influence they have never enjoyed under FPTP. On the last point, you may wonder how Labour would benefit. Well, by having millions of voters, like me, returning to them, when they no longer have to be Tory-lite, in order to have any chance of power. Can't see any of that happening. So, I'll settle for the Tories being out on their arse. Hopefully, soon. Some very good points in there about PP and I would welcome that change to our system. Only thing I would point out is the smaller parties having more representation and influence. This is true but would be true for all smaller parties, some of which may not be as palatable as the greens and libs" To plenty of people the greens are unpalatable and offensive, and are presented as some kind of equal and opposite to BNP/UKIP/Reform etc. | |||
"There will be one, eventually. Right now, it seems like sooner, rather than later. But what should they do, to make things better for UK voters, in the long term? Obviously, their leadership is opposed to PR, for UK GEs - but they should give it a go. Why? Firstly, it would mean that neither they, nor the Tories, would ever have a majority of seats in Westminster, without gaining the majority of the votes cast. That's just right and proper. Secondly, in the event that Labour get the chance to form a minority government, they would - on most issues - either enjoy the support, or the abstention, of any other party that didn't want to side with the Tories. Thirdly, the voters who favour smaller parties, like the LibDems, the Greens, the SNP would get the representation they deserve, in Westminster. You can argue, under FPTP, the SNP are over represented and the Greens under-represented; in UK terms. Finally, PR UK-wide would utterly remove the political case for Scottish independence; by giving the votes of Scots the same significance as everyone else's and, therefore, influence they have never enjoyed under FPTP. On the last point, you may wonder how Labour would benefit. Well, by having millions of voters, like me, returning to them, when they no longer have to be Tory-lite, in order to have any chance of power. Can't see any of that happening. So, I'll settle for the Tories being out on their arse. Hopefully, soon. Some very good points in there about PP and I would welcome that change to our system. Only thing I would point out is the smaller parties having more representation and influence. This is true but would be true for all smaller parties, some of which may not be as palatable as the greens and libs To plenty of people the greens are unpalatable and offensive, and are presented as some kind of equal and opposite to BNP/UKIP/Reform etc." Not sure about the BNP but UKIP/Reform would probably also welcome PP as they do very well from it | |||
"There will be one, eventually. Right now, it seems like sooner, rather than later. But what should they do, to make things better for UK voters, in the long term? Obviously, their leadership is opposed to PR, for UK GEs - but they should give it a go. Why? Firstly, it would mean that neither they, nor the Tories, would ever have a majority of seats in Westminster, without gaining the majority of the votes cast. That's just right and proper. Secondly, in the event that Labour get the chance to form a minority government, they would - on most issues - either enjoy the support, or the abstention, of any other party that didn't want to side with the Tories. Thirdly, the voters who favour smaller parties, like the LibDems, the Greens, the SNP would get the representation they deserve, in Westminster. You can argue, under FPTP, the SNP are over represented and the Greens under-represented; in UK terms. Finally, PR UK-wide would utterly remove the political case for Scottish independence; by giving the votes of Scots the same significance as everyone else's and, therefore, influence they have never enjoyed under FPTP. On the last point, you may wonder how Labour would benefit. Well, by having millions of voters, like me, returning to them, when they no longer have to be Tory-lite, in order to have any chance of power. Can't see any of that happening. So, I'll settle for the Tories being out on their arse. Hopefully, soon. We had a referendum on this about 10 years ago. We're sticking with 'First past the post' " I know we did. They probably shouldn't even ask this time. LOL As you suggest, FPTP is very likely to remain - and as long as it does, the UK will remain anything but united; it may even end up one Kingdom less. | |||
"There will be one, eventually. Right now, it seems like sooner, rather than later. But what should they do, to make things better for UK voters, in the long term? Obviously, their leadership is opposed to PR, for UK GEs - but they should give it a go. Why? Firstly, it would mean that neither they, nor the Tories, would ever have a majority of seats in Westminster, without gaining the majority of the votes cast. That's just right and proper. Secondly, in the event that Labour get the chance to form a minority government, they would - on most issues - either enjoy the support, or the abstention, of any other party that didn't want to side with the Tories. Thirdly, the voters who favour smaller parties, like the LibDems, the Greens, the SNP would get the representation they deserve, in Westminster. You can argue, under FPTP, the SNP are over represented and the Greens under-represented; in UK terms. Finally, PR UK-wide would utterly remove the political case for Scottish independence; by giving the votes of Scots the same significance as everyone else's and, therefore, influence they have never enjoyed under FPTP. On the last point, you may wonder how Labour would benefit. Well, by having millions of voters, like me, returning to them, when they no longer have to be Tory-lite, in order to have any chance of power. Can't see any of that happening. So, I'll settle for the Tories being out on their arse. Hopefully, soon. Some very good points in there about PP and I would welcome that change to our system. Only thing I would point out is the smaller parties having more representation and influence. This is true but would be true for all smaller parties, some of which may not be as palatable as the greens and libs" Under PR, there would, indeed, be quite a few MPs representing people we find unpalatable - that's just too bad. Under our system, even pound shop nazis are entitled to vote. Just because people are arseholes, doesn't mean they shouldn't be represented in Westminster. If you were unkind, you could apply that to Tories. Indeed, PR means that such people would only get the representation, the level of influence that their vote actually merits - rather than more than it does; which really is - like it or not - the position the current government enjoys. Whilst Sinn Fein MPs, on a point of principle, do not take their seats - and it's very unlikely PR would persuade them to - you have to wonder if the DUP would favour PR. They've gone from a £1bn bribe from Theresa May, to getting utterly ignored by Boris Johnson. Under PR, their level of influence in the UK Parliament would remain stable. If the parliament of the country is an accurate reflection of the votes cast by the electorate, people will still be able to complain about the government. They just won't be able to complain that the result wasn't representative. | |||
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"I would just like to see a PM and politicians just quietly getting on with stuff that will benefit ordinary people. I think we have probably all had enough of being gaslit and divided, not to mention being experimented on with bullshit right-wing media propaganda. I’d go back to the days under Blair and Brown when GDP per capita was at its highest ever level, foodbanks hadn’t been invented and homelessness had all but been eradicated. Yes Blair made a mighty clusterfuck over Iraq, but he and Brown sorted the economy, the NHS and there was generally a feelgood factor that has not existed for the last 12 years. But if, and I stress if, a Tory PM delivered this, I suspect that you may might not be happy because it were a Tory. Similarly, Tory supporters wouldn't be happy if paradise were delivered by a Labour PM. Tribalism is the problem. More concerned about the party than the people in my opinion " That would be true if I were ideologically driven. I am not. I have voted Labour, Lib Dem and Conservative at different times according to how I felt the incumbents were performing. Broadly, I hold Conservative values but Cameron drove me away from the Conservatives because I felt he was a bit of a Spiv and La Jed depth and conviction. That said, I had voted Labour in the Blair / Brown era. | |||
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"Labour won't get in in the next ten years. They are anti Tory with no real agenda of their own. " I agree with the first part. Labour won't get in. But the second part I kind of agree with, the Tory PR/propaganda machine spends a lot of time feeding people this kind of misinformation about Labour. | |||
"I looked up a 2019 election result if a form of Proportional Representation was applied. I think it was based on % of votes cast for each party ? Details below . Numbers = seats Conservatives 288 Brexit party 10 Labour 216 Lib Dems 70 Green 12 SNP 28 Plaid Cymru 4 DUP 6 Sin Fein 4 SDLP 3 Alliance 3 UUP 2 Others 4 Looking at numbers no overall government ? So deals would have to be done . ? Hung Parliament , then another election .Which has happened in Spain I think a lot ? " No. The way in which are governed would have to change so that Politicians would have to be able to work together in coalitions to do what is right for the good of country as opposed to pursuing an ideological fantasy that FPTP enables. PR will mean that a Government takes four steps forward in each Parliamentary cycle instead of 4 steps forward in one cycle, followed by two steps backwards in the next cycle as the new Government tries to undo the ideological “achievements” of the previous Government. | |||
"Labour won't get in in the next ten years. They are anti Tory with no real agenda of their own. " So how come almost all of the most recent Tory U-turns have followed the initial proposals set out by Labour? Labour will win the next election and that will give us all a well deserved rest from the political psychodrama that has bedevilled the Conservatives for the last 12 years. | |||
"Labour won't get in in the next ten years. They are anti Tory with no real agenda of their own. So how come almost all of the most recent Tory U-turns have followed the initial proposals set out by Labour? Labour will win the next election and that will give us all a well deserved rest from the political psychodrama that has bedevilled the Conservatives for the last 12 years." I don't believe Labour will win the next election but if they do, it won't be on their own merit. Most of the 'psychodrama' has followed Brexit which was six years ago and both this and covid are party-irrelevant - Labour and Conservatives are at the combined mercy of both. People hoping for sunlit uplands upon the election of Captain Hindsight in 2024 are going to be bitterly disappointed. | |||
"Labour won't get in in the next ten years. They are anti Tory with no real agenda of their own. So how come almost all of the most recent Tory U-turns have followed the initial proposals set out by Labour? Labour will win the next election and that will give us all a well deserved rest from the political psychodrama that has bedevilled the Conservatives for the last 12 years. I don't believe Labour will win the next election but if they do, it won't be on their own merit. Most of the 'psychodrama' has followed Brexit which was six years ago and both this and covid are party-irrelevant - Labour and Conservatives are at the combined mercy of both. People hoping for sunlit uplands upon the election of Captain Hindsight in 2024 are going to be bitterly disappointed. " I don't believe that Labour would have been as brazen about organising Brexit as a tool to get rich through disaster capitalism. But you're right. Labour don't offer much except a slightly less self serving and slightly less shit than the Conservatives, government. | |||
"There will be one, eventually. Right now, it seems like sooner, rather than later. But what should they do, to make things better for UK voters, in the long term? Obviously, their leadership is opposed to PR, for UK GEs - but they should give it a go. Why? Firstly, it would mean that neither they, nor the Tories, would ever have a majority of seats in Westminster, without gaining the majority of the votes cast. That's just right and proper. Secondly, in the event that Labour get the chance to form a minority government, they would - on most issues - either enjoy the support, or the abstention, of any other party that didn't want to side with the Tories. Thirdly, the voters who favour smaller parties, like the LibDems, the Greens, the SNP would get the representation they deserve, in Westminster. You can argue, under FPTP, the SNP are over represented and the Greens under-represented; in UK terms. Finally, PR UK-wide would utterly remove the political case for Scottish independence; by giving the votes of Scots the same significance as everyone else's and, therefore, influence they have never enjoyed under FPTP. On the last point, you may wonder how Labour would benefit. Well, by having millions of voters, like me, returning to them, when they no longer have to be Tory-lite, in order to have any chance of power. Can't see any of that happening. So, I'll settle for the Tories being out on their arse. Hopefully, soon. Some very good points in there about PP and I would welcome that change to our system. Only thing I would point out is the smaller parties having more representation and influence. This is true but would be true for all smaller parties, some of which may not be as palatable as the greens and libs Under PR, there would, indeed, be quite a few MPs representing people we find unpalatable - that's just too bad. Under our system, even pound shop nazis are entitled to vote. Just because people are arseholes, doesn't mean they shouldn't be represented in Westminster. If you were unkind, you could apply that to Tories. Indeed, PR means that such people would only get the representation, the level of influence that their vote actually merits - rather than more than it does; which really is - like it or not - the position the current government enjoys. Whilst Sinn Fein MPs, on a point of principle, do not take their seats - and it's very unlikely PR would persuade them to - you have to wonder if the DUP would favour PR. They've gone from a £1bn bribe from Theresa May, to getting utterly ignored by Boris Johnson. Under PR, their level of influence in the UK Parliament would remain stable. If the parliament of the country is an accurate reflection of the votes cast by the electorate, people will still be able to complain about the government. They just won't be able to complain that the result wasn't representative." Again you make very valid points about PR. Yes it would reflect the populations views far better and would give a voice and even influence to extreme points of view. At a guess I think if we had PR a long time ago then the brexit referendum would probably have happened even sooner given the amount of votes UKIP used to get but without getting seats. I stress, this is just a guess. | |||
"There will be one, eventually. Right now, it seems like sooner, rather than later. But what should they do, to make things better for UK voters, in the long term? Obviously, their leadership is opposed to PR, for UK GEs - but they should give it a go. Why? Firstly, it would mean that neither they, nor the Tories, would ever have a majority of seats in Westminster, without gaining the majority of the votes cast. That's just right and proper. Secondly, in the event that Labour get the chance to form a minority government, they would - on most issues - either enjoy the support, or the abstention, of any other party that didn't want to side with the Tories. Thirdly, the voters who favour smaller parties, like the LibDems, the Greens, the SNP would get the representation they deserve, in Westminster. You can argue, under FPTP, the SNP are over represented and the Greens under-represented; in UK terms. Finally, PR UK-wide would utterly remove the political case for Scottish independence; by giving the votes of Scots the same significance as everyone else's and, therefore, influence they have never enjoyed under FPTP. On the last point, you may wonder how Labour would benefit. Well, by having millions of voters, like me, returning to them, when they no longer have to be Tory-lite, in order to have any chance of power. Can't see any of that happening. So, I'll settle for the Tories being out on their arse. Hopefully, soon. Some very good points in there about PP and I would welcome that change to our system. Only thing I would point out is the smaller parties having more representation and influence. This is true but would be true for all smaller parties, some of which may not be as palatable as the greens and libs Under PR, there would, indeed, be quite a few MPs representing people we find unpalatable - that's just too bad. Under our system, even pound shop nazis are entitled to vote. Just because people are arseholes, doesn't mean they shouldn't be represented in Westminster. If you were unkind, you could apply that to Tories. Indeed, PR means that such people would only get the representation, the level of influence that their vote actually merits - rather than more than it does; which really is - like it or not - the position the current government enjoys. Whilst Sinn Fein MPs, on a point of principle, do not take their seats - and it's very unlikely PR would persuade them to - you have to wonder if the DUP would favour PR. They've gone from a £1bn bribe from Theresa May, to getting utterly ignored by Boris Johnson. Under PR, their level of influence in the UK Parliament would remain stable. If the parliament of the country is an accurate reflection of the votes cast by the electorate, people will still be able to complain about the government. They just won't be able to complain that the result wasn't representative. Again you make very valid points about PR. Yes it would reflect the populations views far better and would give a voice and even influence to extreme points of view. At a guess I think if we had PR a long time ago then the brexit referendum would probably have happened even sooner given the amount of votes UKIP used to get but without getting seats. I stress, this is just a guess." It's an educated guess and a good one at that | |||
"Labour won't get in in the next ten years. They are anti Tory with no real agenda of their own. So how come almost all of the most recent Tory U-turns have followed the initial proposals set out by Labour? Labour will win the next election and that will give us all a well deserved rest from the political psychodrama that has bedevilled the Conservatives for the last 12 years. I don't believe Labour will win the next election but if they do, it won't be on their own merit. Most of the 'psychodrama' has followed Brexit which was six years ago and both this and covid are party-irrelevant - Labour and Conservatives are at the combined mercy of both. People hoping for sunlit uplands upon the election of Captain Hindsight in 2024 are going to be bitterly disappointed. I don't believe that Labour would have been as brazen about organising Brexit as a tool to get rich through disaster capitalism. But you're right. Labour don't offer much except a slightly less self serving and slightly less shit than the Conservatives, government." A softer Brexit may have been better? | |||
"Labour won't get in in the next ten years. They are anti Tory with no real agenda of their own. So how come almost all of the most recent Tory U-turns have followed the initial proposals set out by Labour? Labour will win the next election and that will give us all a well deserved rest from the political psychodrama that has bedevilled the Conservatives for the last 12 years. I don't believe Labour will win the next election but if they do, it won't be on their own merit. Most of the 'psychodrama' has followed Brexit which was six years ago and both this and covid are party-irrelevant - Labour and Conservatives are at the combined mercy of both. People hoping for sunlit uplands upon the election of Captain Hindsight in 2024 are going to be bitterly disappointed. " For me, the Tory party got in off the back of brexit and "any one but Corbyn". Rather than the merits of their own policies. Our policiticians need to be able to work with the wider geopolitical winds. There's is always some once on a generation event going on, even if they aren't always negative events. Brexit was a self impose event. Whether you see it being positive or negative in itself, it's a huge distraction from other things. You then have to ask if the government did good enough with COVID. Imo, they lucked out that OU won the vaccine race. That has very little to do with HMG ability. Sure they backed OU, but that's a no brainer. Other than that, they made poor decision after poor decision. I don't think Stalker will give us sunny uplands. I don't know if anyone really does. They just think he won't start painting the outside of the house on a middle of a storm. (Ps I do enjoy his hindsight moniker when most Tory u turns seem to follow his parties policies. Goes to show the power of a good label) | |||
"Labour won't get in in the next ten years. They are anti Tory with no real agenda of their own. So how come almost all of the most recent Tory U-turns have followed the initial proposals set out by Labour? Labour will win the next election and that will give us all a well deserved rest from the political psychodrama that has bedevilled the Conservatives for the last 12 years. I don't believe Labour will win the next election but if they do, it won't be on their own merit. Most of the 'psychodrama' has followed Brexit which was six years ago and both this and covid are party-irrelevant - Labour and Conservatives are at the combined mercy of both. People hoping for sunlit uplands upon the election of Captain Hindsight in 2024 are going to be bitterly disappointed. For me, the Tory party got in off the back of brexit and "any one but Corbyn". Rather than the merits of their own policies. Our policiticians need to be able to work with the wider geopolitical winds. There's is always some once on a generation event going on, even if they aren't always negative events. Brexit was a self impose event. Whether you see it being positive or negative in itself, it's a huge distraction from other things. You then have to ask if the government did good enough with COVID. Imo, they lucked out that OU won the vaccine race. That has very little to do with HMG ability. Sure they backed OU, but that's a no brainer. Other than that, they made poor decision after poor decision. I don't think Stalker will give us sunny uplands. I don't know if anyone really does. They just think he won't start painting the outside of the house on a middle of a storm. (Ps I do enjoy his hindsight moniker when most Tory u turns seem to follow his parties policies. Goes to show the power of a good label)" Forgive my ignorance, but what on earth is the OU vaccine? | |||
"Labour won't get in in the next ten years. They are anti Tory with no real agenda of their own. So how come almost all of the most recent Tory U-turns have followed the initial proposals set out by Labour? Labour will win the next election and that will give us all a well deserved rest from the political psychodrama that has bedevilled the Conservatives for the last 12 years. I don't believe Labour will win the next election but if they do, it won't be on their own merit. Most of the 'psychodrama' has followed Brexit which was six years ago and both this and covid are party-irrelevant - Labour and Conservatives are at the combined mercy of both. People hoping for sunlit uplands upon the election of Captain Hindsight in 2024 are going to be bitterly disappointed. For me, the Tory party got in off the back of brexit and "any one but Corbyn". Rather than the merits of their own policies. Our policiticians need to be able to work with the wider geopolitical winds. There's is always some once on a generation event going on, even if they aren't always negative events. Brexit was a self impose event. Whether you see it being positive or negative in itself, it's a huge distraction from other things. You then have to ask if the government did good enough with COVID. Imo, they lucked out that OU won the vaccine race. That has very little to do with HMG ability. Sure they backed OU, but that's a no brainer. Other than that, they made poor decision after poor decision. I don't think Stalker will give us sunny uplands. I don't know if anyone really does. They just think he won't start painting the outside of the house on a middle of a storm. (Ps I do enjoy his hindsight moniker when most Tory u turns seem to follow his parties policies. Goes to show the power of a good label) Forgive my ignorance, but what on earth is the OU vaccine? " Well I’ll give you a clue….it ain’t the open university | |||
"Labour won't get in in the next ten years. They are anti Tory with no real agenda of their own. So how come almost all of the most recent Tory U-turns have followed the initial proposals set out by Labour? Labour will win the next election and that will give us all a well deserved rest from the political psychodrama that has bedevilled the Conservatives for the last 12 years. I don't believe Labour will win the next election but if they do, it won't be on their own merit. Most of the 'psychodrama' has followed Brexit which was six years ago and both this and covid are party-irrelevant - Labour and Conservatives are at the combined mercy of both. People hoping for sunlit uplands upon the election of Captain Hindsight in 2024 are going to be bitterly disappointed. " The tories didn’t win the last election ‘on their own merit’ | |||
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"Labour won't get in in the next ten years. They are anti Tory with no real agenda of their own. So how come almost all of the most recent Tory U-turns have followed the initial proposals set out by Labour? Labour will win the next election and that will give us all a well deserved rest from the political psychodrama that has bedevilled the Conservatives for the last 12 years. I don't believe Labour will win the next election but if they do, it won't be on their own merit. Most of the 'psychodrama' has followed Brexit which was six years ago and both this and covid are party-irrelevant - Labour and Conservatives are at the combined mercy of both. People hoping for sunlit uplands upon the election of Captain Hindsight in 2024 are going to be bitterly disappointed. I don't believe that Labour would have been as brazen about organising Brexit as a tool to get rich through disaster capitalism. But you're right. Labour don't offer much except a slightly less self serving and slightly less shit than the Conservatives, government. A softer Brexit may have been better? " It would have been less shit. | |||
"Labour won't get in in the next ten years. They are anti Tory with no real agenda of their own. So how come almost all of the most recent Tory U-turns have followed the initial proposals set out by Labour? Labour will win the next election and that will give us all a well deserved rest from the political psychodrama that has bedevilled the Conservatives for the last 12 years. I don't believe Labour will win the next election but if they do, it won't be on their own merit. Most of the 'psychodrama' has followed Brexit which was six years ago and both this and covid are party-irrelevant - Labour and Conservatives are at the combined mercy of both. People hoping for sunlit uplands upon the election of Captain Hindsight in 2024 are going to be bitterly disappointed. For me, the Tory party got in off the back of brexit and "any one but Corbyn". Rather than the merits of their own policies. Our policiticians need to be able to work with the wider geopolitical winds. There's is always some once on a generation event going on, even if they aren't always negative events. Brexit was a self impose event. Whether you see it being positive or negative in itself, it's a huge distraction from other things. You then have to ask if the government did good enough with COVID. Imo, they lucked out that OU won the vaccine race. That has very little to do with HMG ability. Sure they backed OU, but that's a no brainer. Other than that, they made poor decision after poor decision. I don't think Stalker will give us sunny uplands. I don't know if anyone really does. They just think he won't start painting the outside of the house on a middle of a storm. (Ps I do enjoy his hindsight moniker when most Tory u turns seem to follow his parties policies. Goes to show the power of a good label) Forgive my ignorance, but what on earth is the OU vaccine? " Oxford university | |||
"Labour won't get in in the next ten years. They are anti Tory with no real agenda of their own. So how come almost all of the most recent Tory U-turns have followed the initial proposals set out by Labour? Labour will win the next election and that will give us all a well deserved rest from the political psychodrama that has bedevilled the Conservatives for the last 12 years. I don't believe Labour will win the next election but if they do, it won't be on their own merit. Most of the 'psychodrama' has followed Brexit which was six years ago and both this and covid are party-irrelevant - Labour and Conservatives are at the combined mercy of both. People hoping for sunlit uplands upon the election of Captain Hindsight in 2024 are going to be bitterly disappointed. For me, the Tory party got in off the back of brexit and "any one but Corbyn". Rather than the merits of their own policies. Our policiticians need to be able to work with the wider geopolitical winds. There's is always some once on a generation event going on, even if they aren't always negative events. Brexit was a self impose event. Whether you see it being positive or negative in itself, it's a huge distraction from other things. You then have to ask if the government did good enough with COVID. Imo, they lucked out that OU won the vaccine race. That has very little to do with HMG ability. Sure they backed OU, but that's a no brainer. Other than that, they made poor decision after poor decision. I don't think Stalker will give us sunny uplands. I don't know if anyone really does. They just think he won't start painting the outside of the house on a middle of a storm. (Ps I do enjoy his hindsight moniker when most Tory u turns seem to follow his parties policies. Goes to show the power of a good label) Forgive my ignorance, but what on earth is the OU vaccine? Oxford university "Thanks
The AstraZeneca vaccine? | |||
"Labour won't get in in the next ten years. They are anti Tory with no real agenda of their own. So how come almost all of the most recent Tory U-turns have followed the initial proposals set out by Labour? Labour will win the next election and that will give us all a well deserved rest from the political psychodrama that has bedevilled the Conservatives for the last 12 years. I don't believe Labour will win the next election but if they do, it won't be on their own merit. Most of the 'psychodrama' has followed Brexit which was six years ago and both this and covid are party-irrelevant - Labour and Conservatives are at the combined mercy of both. People hoping for sunlit uplands upon the election of Captain Hindsight in 2024 are going to be bitterly disappointed. For me, the Tory party got in off the back of brexit and "any one but Corbyn". Rather than the merits of their own policies. Our policiticians need to be able to work with the wider geopolitical winds. There's is always some once on a generation event going on, even if they aren't always negative events. Brexit was a self impose event. Whether you see it being positive or negative in itself, it's a huge distraction from other things. You then have to ask if the government did good enough with COVID. Imo, they lucked out that OU won the vaccine race. That has very little to do with HMG ability. Sure they backed OU, but that's a no brainer. Other than that, they made poor decision after poor decision. I don't think Stalker will give us sunny uplands. I don't know if anyone really does. They just think he won't start painting the outside of the house on a middle of a storm. (Ps I do enjoy his hindsight moniker when most Tory u turns seem to follow his parties policies. Goes to show the power of a good label) Forgive my ignorance, but what on earth is the OU vaccine? Oxford university
Thanks
The AstraZeneca vaccine? "yes (they manufactured it). It was the OU AZ contract that have the UK the vaccine upper hand. That + OU being British is why I referred to it as the OU vaccine | |||
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"Labour won't get in in the next ten years. They are anti Tory with no real agenda of their own. So how come almost all of the most recent Tory U-turns have followed the initial proposals set out by Labour? Labour will win the next election and that will give us all a well deserved rest from the political psychodrama that has bedevilled the Conservatives for the last 12 years. I don't believe Labour will win the next election but if they do, it won't be on their own merit. Most of the 'psychodrama' has followed Brexit which was six years ago and both this and covid are party-irrelevant - Labour and Conservatives are at the combined mercy of both. People hoping for sunlit uplands upon the election of Captain Hindsight in 2024 are going to be bitterly disappointed. The tories didn’t win the last election ‘on their own merit’ " I'd take a different view. Many many people I know wanted to 'get Brexit done' following years of prevarication on delivering on the 2016 referendum result. Never forget how Captain Hindsight regularly tried to thwart the democratic will of the people and was full square behind Corbyn. His recent Blairification to try to gain power is a bad cover version not fooling many. Labour’s 2017 manifesto has gone from being Starmer’s “foundational document” to something he is “not interested in” He reneges on deals and votes if they don't suit him. The one thing you never do is renege on a deal you’ve negotiated. He insists that he has reimagined the Labour Party’s values, including support for Nato, for Israel’s right to defend itself, and against anti-Semitism. This is all welcome. But for trying to get Corbyn into No 10 he can never be forgiven. Yet, due to the Tories inept handling of the mini budget, voters look likely to be duped and charmed by a slippery, knighted Islington lawyer into giving him the keys to number 10  | |||
"Labour won't get in in the next ten years. They are anti Tory with no real agenda of their own. So how come almost all of the most recent Tory U-turns have followed the initial proposals set out by Labour? Labour will win the next election and that will give us all a well deserved rest from the political psychodrama that has bedevilled the Conservatives for the last 12 years. I don't believe Labour will win the next election but if they do, it won't be on their own merit. Most of the 'psychodrama' has followed Brexit which was six years ago and both this and covid are party-irrelevant - Labour and Conservatives are at the combined mercy of both. People hoping for sunlit uplands upon the election of Captain Hindsight in 2024 are going to be bitterly disappointed. The tories didn’t win the last election ‘on their own merit’ I'd take a different view. Many many people I know wanted to 'get Brexit done' following years of prevarication on delivering on the 2016 referendum result. Never forget how Captain Hindsight regularly tried to thwart the democratic will of the people and was full square behind Corbyn. His recent Blairification to try to gain power is a bad cover version not fooling many. Labour’s 2017 manifesto has gone from being Starmer’s “foundational document” to something he is “not interested in” He reneges on deals and votes if they don't suit him. The one thing you never do is renege on a deal you’ve negotiated. He insists that he has reimagined the Labour Party’s values, including support for Nato, for Israel’s right to defend itself, and against anti-Semitism. This is all welcome. But for trying to get Corbyn into No 10 he can never be forgiven. Yet, due to the Tories inept handling of the mini budget, voters look likely to be duped and charmed by a slippery, knighted Islington lawyer into giving him the keys to number 10 "I disagree, how many many people do you know? I know many many people who voted Tory because they couldn’t vote for Corbyn. Like it or not SKS will be your next PM, start getting used to it | |||
"Labour won't get in in the next ten years. They are anti Tory with no real agenda of their own. So how come almost all of the most recent Tory U-turns have followed the initial proposals set out by Labour? Labour will win the next election and that will give us all a well deserved rest from the political psychodrama that has bedevilled the Conservatives for the last 12 years. I don't believe Labour will win the next election but if they do, it won't be on their own merit. Most of the 'psychodrama' has followed Brexit which was six years ago and both this and covid are party-irrelevant - Labour and Conservatives are at the combined mercy of both. People hoping for sunlit uplands upon the election of Captain Hindsight in 2024 are going to be bitterly disappointed. The tories didn’t win the last election ‘on their own merit’ I'd take a different view. Many many people I know wanted to 'get Brexit done' following years of prevarication on delivering on the 2016 referendum result. Never forget how Captain Hindsight regularly tried to thwart the democratic will of the people and was full square behind Corbyn. His recent Blairification to try to gain power is a bad cover version not fooling many. Labour’s 2017 manifesto has gone from being Starmer’s “foundational document” to something he is “not interested in” He reneges on deals and votes if they don't suit him. The one thing you never do is renege on a deal you’ve negotiated. He insists that he has reimagined the Labour Party’s values, including support for Nato, for Israel’s right to defend itself, and against anti-Semitism. This is all welcome. But for trying to get Corbyn into No 10 he can never be forgiven. Yet, due to the Tories inept handling of the mini budget, voters look likely to be duped and charmed by a slippery, knighted Islington lawyer into giving him the keys to number 10 "Interesting. What's your view on the current government seeking to undo the NIP? That appears to be a combination of going against the will of the people (who voted for Tories based on delivering this), restarting Brexit, and going back on a negotiation. | |||
"Labour won't get in in the next ten years. They are anti Tory with no real agenda of their own. So how come almost all of the most recent Tory U-turns have followed the initial proposals set out by Labour? Labour will win the next election and that will give us all a well deserved rest from the political psychodrama that has bedevilled the Conservatives for the last 12 years. I don't believe Labour will win the next election but if they do, it won't be on their own merit. Most of the 'psychodrama' has followed Brexit which was six years ago and both this and covid are party-irrelevant - Labour and Conservatives are at the combined mercy of both. People hoping for sunlit uplands upon the election of Captain Hindsight in 2024 are going to be bitterly disappointed. The tories didn’t win the last election ‘on their own merit’ I'd take a different view. Many many people I know wanted to 'get Brexit done' following years of prevarication on delivering on the 2016 referendum result. Never forget how Captain Hindsight regularly tried to thwart the democratic will of the people and was full square behind Corbyn. His recent Blairification to try to gain power is a bad cover version not fooling many. Labour’s 2017 manifesto has gone from being Starmer’s “foundational document” to something he is “not interested in” He reneges on deals and votes if they don't suit him. The one thing you never do is renege on a deal you’ve negotiated. He insists that he has reimagined the Labour Party’s values, including support for Nato, for Israel’s right to defend itself, and against anti-Semitism. This is all welcome. But for trying to get Corbyn into No 10 he can never be forgiven. Yet, due to the Tories inept handling of the mini budget, voters look likely to be duped and charmed by a slippery, knighted Islington lawyer into giving him the keys to number 10 "Oh dear…I am not sure you are in tune with the will of the people | |||
"Labour won't get in in the next ten years. They are anti Tory with no real agenda of their own. So how come almost all of the most recent Tory U-turns have followed the initial proposals set out by Labour? Labour will win the next election and that will give us all a well deserved rest from the political psychodrama that has bedevilled the Conservatives for the last 12 years. I don't believe Labour will win the next election but if they do, it won't be on their own merit. Most of the 'psychodrama' has followed Brexit which was six years ago and both this and covid are party-irrelevant - Labour and Conservatives are at the combined mercy of both. People hoping for sunlit uplands upon the election of Captain Hindsight in 2024 are going to be bitterly disappointed. The tories didn’t win the last election ‘on their own merit’ I'd take a different view. Many many people I know wanted to 'get Brexit done' following years of prevarication on delivering on the 2016 referendum result. Never forget how Captain Hindsight regularly tried to thwart the democratic will of the people and was full square behind Corbyn. His recent Blairification to try to gain power is a bad cover version not fooling many. Labour’s 2017 manifesto has gone from being Starmer’s “foundational document” to something he is “not interested in” He reneges on deals and votes if they don't suit him. The one thing you never do is renege on a deal you’ve negotiated. He insists that he has reimagined the Labour Party’s values, including support for Nato, for Israel’s right to defend itself, and against anti-Semitism. This is all welcome. But for trying to get Corbyn into No 10 he can never be forgiven. Yet, due to the Tories inept handling of the mini budget, voters look likely to be duped and charmed by a slippery, knighted Islington lawyer into giving him the keys to number 10 "People in glass houses, shouldn't throw stones. Who has changed policy and renaged on promise more than Truss to get into power. I don't need to list them because they're well documented. Liberal to Tory, Remainer to Brexiteer etc etc. Is it only Tories who can change minds or policies promised..? | |||
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"Why not just go full Royalist, ditch parliament altogether and have the King decide on things directly?" Then we would be really fucked 
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"Why not just go full Royalist, ditch parliament altogether and have the King decide on things directly? Then we would be really fucked
"Royally fucked? | |||
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"Labour won't get in in the next ten years. They are anti Tory with no real agenda of their own. So how come almost all of the most recent Tory U-turns have followed the initial proposals set out by Labour? Labour will win the next election and that will give us all a well deserved rest from the political psychodrama that has bedevilled the Conservatives for the last 12 years. I don't believe Labour will win the next election but if they do, it won't be on their own merit. Most of the 'psychodrama' has followed Brexit which was six years ago and both this and covid are party-irrelevant - Labour and Conservatives are at the combined mercy of both. People hoping for sunlit uplands upon the election of Captain Hindsight in 2024 are going to be bitterly disappointed. The tories didn’t win the last election ‘on their own merit’ I'd take a different view. Many many people I know wanted to 'get Brexit done' following years of prevarication on delivering on the 2016 referendum result. Never forget how Captain Hindsight regularly tried to thwart the democratic will of the people and was full square behind Corbyn. His recent Blairification to try to gain power is a bad cover version not fooling many. Labour’s 2017 manifesto has gone from being Starmer’s “foundational document” to something he is “not interested in” He reneges on deals and votes if they don't suit him. The one thing you never do is renege on a deal you’ve negotiated. He insists that he has reimagined the Labour Party’s values, including support for Nato, for Israel’s right to defend itself, and against anti-Semitism. This is all welcome. But for trying to get Corbyn into No 10 he can never be forgiven. Yet, due to the Tories inept handling of the mini budget, voters look likely to be duped and charmed by a slippery, knighted Islington lawyer into giving him the keys to number 10
I disagree, how many many people do you know? I know many many people who voted Tory because they couldn’t vote for Corbyn. Like it or not SKS will be your next PM, start getting used to it "The people I know who couldn’t vote for Corbyn, didn't vote at all. You must know some odd people who voted for the polar opposite politician and personality, just because Corbyn was the wrong guy at the Labour helm. I think a Labour Government looks very likely. But you may not get SKS as your next PM.... I also know plenty of people who were getting used to the idea of John Smith becoming PM in the mid 90s. And then there was Kinnock in 92 at Sheffield. Kinnock’s call and response with the jubilant crowd of “we’re alright” or “well alright” was a cringeworthy rock star imitation and a classic 'don't count your chickens' moment. When the Tories pulled off victory despite Labour’s lead in the opinion polls the rally went down in history among voters and lent weight to the belief that surveys often overstate Labour’s vote share. | |||
"Labour won't get in in the next ten years. They are anti Tory with no real agenda of their own. So how come almost all of the most recent Tory U-turns have followed the initial proposals set out by Labour? Labour will win the next election and that will give us all a well deserved rest from the political psychodrama that has bedevilled the Conservatives for the last 12 years. I don't believe Labour will win the next election but if they do, it won't be on their own merit. Most of the 'psychodrama' has followed Brexit which was six years ago and both this and covid are party-irrelevant - Labour and Conservatives are at the combined mercy of both. People hoping for sunlit uplands upon the election of Captain Hindsight in 2024 are going to be bitterly disappointed. The tories didn’t win the last election ‘on their own merit’ I'd take a different view. Many many people I know wanted to 'get Brexit done' following years of prevarication on delivering on the 2016 referendum result. Never forget how Captain Hindsight regularly tried to thwart the democratic will of the people and was full square behind Corbyn. His recent Blairification to try to gain power is a bad cover version not fooling many. Labour’s 2017 manifesto has gone from being Starmer’s “foundational document” to something he is “not interested in” He reneges on deals and votes if they don't suit him. The one thing you never do is renege on a deal you’ve negotiated. He insists that he has reimagined the Labour Party’s values, including support for Nato, for Israel’s right to defend itself, and against anti-Semitism. This is all welcome. But for trying to get Corbyn into No 10 he can never be forgiven. Yet, due to the Tories inept handling of the mini budget, voters look likely to be duped and charmed by a slippery, knighted Islington lawyer into giving him the keys to number 10
Interesting. What's your view on the current government seeking to undo the NIP?
That appears to be a combination of going against the will of the people (who voted for Tories based on delivering this), restarting Brexit, and going back on a negotiation. "I think the way the protocol is being implemented does not correspond with the spirit in which it was negotiated. Yes, maybe it was rushed through to try to break the Brexit deadlock, but the EU is seeking legal purism and should be pragmatic. Ultimately the priority should be to uphold the Good Friday Agreement. | |||
""I know many many people who voted Tory because they couldn’t vote for Corbyn" In the same way they voted Tory because they couldn't vote for Brown. At that particular time I was as Tory as you could get but, funnily enough, Tony Wright our Labour MP was absolutey brilliant, did so much for the local community, support for charities etc. So who do you vote for, the Labour incumbent or a Tory carpetbagger who hadn't even heard of Great Yarmouth a week before? I actually voted Labour, but pretty pointless, GY chose Brandon Lewis, who's done quite alright for himself by brown-nosing every PM since and agreeing with whatever policy they come up with, even if it's completely opposite to the previous one's!" Good points. I think a Labour Government is likely but success may not come as quickly as they would like. I would like to see SKS fail like Kinnock and believe someone like Andy Burnham would win in '28/29. There was an ICM poll for the Guardian in 1990 which after the poll tax riots put the Tories on 33% and Labour on almost 50%. In 1992, the Tories won. | |||
""I know many many people who voted Tory because they couldn’t vote for Corbyn" In the same way they voted Tory because they couldn't vote for Brown. At that particular time I was as Tory as you could get but, funnily enough, Tony Wright our Labour MP was absolutey brilliant, did so much for the local community, support for charities etc. So who do you vote for, the Labour incumbent or a Tory carpetbagger who hadn't even heard of Great Yarmouth a week before? I actually voted Labour, but pretty pointless, GY chose Brandon Lewis, who's done quite alright for himself by brown-nosing every PM since and agreeing with whatever policy they come up with, even if it's completely opposite to the previous one's! Good points. I think a Labour Government is likely but success may not come as quickly as they would like. I would like to see SKS fail like Kinnock and believe someone like Andy Burnham would win in '28/29. There was an ICM poll for the Guardian in 1990 which after the poll tax riots put the Tories on 33% and Labour on almost 50%. In 1992, the Tories won. " Labour will narrowly win the next election, they might need to form a coalition but that isn’t a bad outcome. The tories are finished (for the time being) their downfall has been swift and self inflicted | |||
"Labour won't get in in the next ten years. They are anti Tory with no real agenda of their own. So how come almost all of the most recent Tory U-turns have followed the initial proposals set out by Labour? Labour will win the next election and that will give us all a well deserved rest from the political psychodrama that has bedevilled the Conservatives for the last 12 years. I don't believe Labour will win the next election but if they do, it won't be on their own merit. Most of the 'psychodrama' has followed Brexit which was six years ago and both this and covid are party-irrelevant - Labour and Conservatives are at the combined mercy of both. People hoping for sunlit uplands upon the election of Captain Hindsight in 2024 are going to be bitterly disappointed. The tories didn’t win the last election ‘on their own merit’ I'd take a different view. Many many people I know wanted to 'get Brexit done' following years of prevarication on delivering on the 2016 referendum result. Never forget how Captain Hindsight regularly tried to thwart the democratic will of the people and was full square behind Corbyn. His recent Blairification to try to gain power is a bad cover version not fooling many. Labour’s 2017 manifesto has gone from being Starmer’s “foundational document” to something he is “not interested in” He reneges on deals and votes if they don't suit him. The one thing you never do is renege on a deal you’ve negotiated. He insists that he has reimagined the Labour Party’s values, including support for Nato, for Israel’s right to defend itself, and against anti-Semitism. This is all welcome. But for trying to get Corbyn into No 10 he can never be forgiven. Yet, due to the Tories inept handling of the mini budget, voters look likely to be duped and charmed by a slippery, knighted Islington lawyer into giving him the keys to number 10
Oh dear…I am not sure you are in tune with the will of the people "Do you mean 'in tune with the mood of some people' We won't know 'the will of the people' until the votes in the next General election have been counted. If after that, there is a Labour victory, then you can type the sentence you typed today
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""I know many many people who voted Tory because they couldn’t vote for Corbyn" In the same way they voted Tory because they couldn't vote for Brown. At that particular time I was as Tory as you could get but, funnily enough, Tony Wright our Labour MP was absolutey brilliant, did so much for the local community, support for charities etc. So who do you vote for, the Labour incumbent or a Tory carpetbagger who hadn't even heard of Great Yarmouth a week before? I actually voted Labour, but pretty pointless, GY chose Brandon Lewis, who's done quite alright for himself by brown-nosing every PM since and agreeing with whatever policy they come up with, even if it's completely opposite to the previous one's! Good points. I think a Labour Government is likely but success may not come as quickly as they would like. I would like to see SKS fail like Kinnock and believe someone like Andy Burnham would win in '28/29. There was an ICM poll for the Guardian in 1990 which after the poll tax riots put the Tories on 33% and Labour on almost 50%. In 1992, the Tories won. " The Tories PR/propaganda machine is all powerful. | |||
""I know many many people who voted Tory because they couldn’t vote for Corbyn" In the same way they voted Tory because they couldn't vote for Brown. At that particular time I was as Tory as you could get but, funnily enough, Tony Wright our Labour MP was absolutey brilliant, did so much for the local community, support for charities etc. So who do you vote for, the Labour incumbent or a Tory carpetbagger who hadn't even heard of Great Yarmouth a week before? I actually voted Labour, but pretty pointless, GY chose Brandon Lewis, who's done quite alright for himself by brown-nosing every PM since and agreeing with whatever policy they come up with, even if it's completely opposite to the previous one's! Good points. I think a Labour Government is likely but success may not come as quickly as they would like. I would like to see SKS fail like Kinnock and believe someone like Andy Burnham would win in '28/29. There was an ICM poll for the Guardian in 1990 which after the poll tax riots put the Tories on 33% and Labour on almost 50%. In 1992, the Tories won. Labour will narrowly win the next election, they might need to form a coalition but that isn’t a bad outcome. The tories are finished (for the time being) their downfall has been swift and self inflicted " Entirely possible
But few political parties are 'finished' after electoral defeat. People were saying Labour was 'finished' after 2019 and the Tories were 'finished' after 1997. Neither proved to be remotely true, so you were right to add 'for the time being'.
Yes, some of the Tories downfall is self-inflicted but these things are cyclical and some people like a change.
However, as 1992 showed, voter behaviour is often influenced by voter loyalty, particularly amongst Tory voters.
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""I know many many people who voted Tory because they couldn’t vote for Corbyn" In the same way they voted Tory because they couldn't vote for Brown. At that particular time I was as Tory as you could get but, funnily enough, Tony Wright our Labour MP was absolutey brilliant, did so much for the local community, support for charities etc. So who do you vote for, the Labour incumbent or a Tory carpetbagger who hadn't even heard of Great Yarmouth a week before? I actually voted Labour, but pretty pointless, GY chose Brandon Lewis, who's done quite alright for himself by brown-nosing every PM since and agreeing with whatever policy they come up with, even if it's completely opposite to the previous one's! Good points. I think a Labour Government is likely but success may not come as quickly as they would like. I would like to see SKS fail like Kinnock and believe someone like Andy Burnham would win in '28/29. There was an ICM poll for the Guardian in 1990 which after the poll tax riots put the Tories on 33% and Labour on almost 50%. In 1992, the Tories won. The Tories PR/propaganda machine is all powerful." Labour's is too. New Labour and Alastair Campbell knew a thing or two, I would venture to suggest. | |||
""I know many many people who voted Tory because they couldn’t vote for Corbyn" In the same way they voted Tory because they couldn't vote for Brown. At that particular time I was as Tory as you could get but, funnily enough, Tony Wright our Labour MP was absolutey brilliant, did so much for the local community, support for charities etc. So who do you vote for, the Labour incumbent or a Tory carpetbagger who hadn't even heard of Great Yarmouth a week before? I actually voted Labour, but pretty pointless, GY chose Brandon Lewis, who's done quite alright for himself by brown-nosing every PM since and agreeing with whatever policy they come up with, even if it's completely opposite to the previous one's! Good points. I think a Labour Government is likely but success may not come as quickly as they would like. I would like to see SKS fail like Kinnock and believe someone like Andy Burnham would win in '28/29. There was an ICM poll for the Guardian in 1990 which after the poll tax riots put the Tories on 33% and Labour on almost 50%. In 1992, the Tories won. Labour will narrowly win the next election, they might need to form a coalition but that isn’t a bad outcome. The tories are finished (for the time being) their downfall has been swift and self inflicted Entirely possible
But few political parties are 'finished' after electoral defeat. People were saying Labour was 'finished' after 2019 and the Tories were 'finished' after 1997. Neither proved to be remotely true, so you were right to add 'for the time being'.
Yes, some of the Tories downfall is self-inflicted but these things are cyclical and some people like a change.
However, as 1992 showed, voter behaviour is often influenced by voter loyalty, particularly amongst Tory voters.
"I agree ... Although I do wonder if being so shit on teh economy (a Tory strong point, at least in the eyes of their voters) will be more damaging. Often the party in power fucks up on either their "weaker" points... Or one off incidences. The Tories would have survived pincher, covid, or whatever else fell out of Boris reign. This is slightly more foundational. An amazing own goal. | |||
""I know many many people who voted Tory because they couldn’t vote for Corbyn" In the same way they voted Tory because they couldn't vote for Brown. At that particular time I was as Tory as you could get but, funnily enough, Tony Wright our Labour MP was absolutey brilliant, did so much for the local community, support for charities etc. So who do you vote for, the Labour incumbent or a Tory carpetbagger who hadn't even heard of Great Yarmouth a week before? I actually voted Labour, but pretty pointless, GY chose Brandon Lewis, who's done quite alright for himself by brown-nosing every PM since and agreeing with whatever policy they come up with, even if it's completely opposite to the previous one's! Good points. I think a Labour Government is likely but success may not come as quickly as they would like. I would like to see SKS fail like Kinnock and believe someone like Andy Burnham would win in '28/29. There was an ICM poll for the Guardian in 1990 which after the poll tax riots put the Tories on 33% and Labour on almost 50%. In 1992, the Tories won. Labour will narrowly win the next election, they might need to form a coalition but that isn’t a bad outcome. The tories are finished (for the time being) their downfall has been swift and self inflicted Entirely possible
But few political parties are 'finished' after electoral defeat. People were saying Labour was 'finished' after 2019 and the Tories were 'finished' after 1997. Neither proved to be remotely true, so you were right to add 'for the time being'.
Yes, some of the Tories downfall is self-inflicted but these things are cyclical and some people like a change.
However, as 1992 showed, voter behaviour is often influenced by voter loyalty, particularly amongst Tory voters.
I agree ... Although I do wonder if being so shit on teh economy (a Tory strong point, at least in the eyes of their voters) will be more damaging. Often the party in power fucks up on either their "weaker" points... Or one off incidences.
The Tories would have survived pincher, covid, or whatever else fell out of Boris reign. This is slightly more foundational. An amazing own goal. "It really is. Truss has been very naive. She forgot that in the first round of leadership voting among MPs, she managed to claim just 50 votes. There are 357 Tory MPs. No wonder some Rishi Sunak supporters are already dreaming that their leadership candidate will soon be giving it another go, especially after her bizarre budget benefitting bankers and the well off the most. In a cost of living crisis. Two years is a long time though. Corbyn nearly scraped in in 2017, yet Boris bulldozed him in 2019. | |||
""I know many many people who voted Tory because they couldn’t vote for Corbyn" In the same way they voted Tory because they couldn't vote for Brown. At that particular time I was as Tory as you could get but, funnily enough, Tony Wright our Labour MP was absolutey brilliant, did so much for the local community, support for charities etc. So who do you vote for, the Labour incumbent or a Tory carpetbagger who hadn't even heard of Great Yarmouth a week before? I actually voted Labour, but pretty pointless, GY chose Brandon Lewis, who's done quite alright for himself by brown-nosing every PM since and agreeing with whatever policy they come up with, even if it's completely opposite to the previous one's! Good points. I think a Labour Government is likely but success may not come as quickly as they would like. I would like to see SKS fail like Kinnock and believe someone like Andy Burnham would win in '28/29. There was an ICM poll for the Guardian in 1990 which after the poll tax riots put the Tories on 33% and Labour on almost 50%. In 1992, the Tories won. The Tories PR/propaganda machine is all powerful. Labour's is too. New Labour and Alastair Campbell knew a thing or two, I would venture to suggest. " Yes, they out Toried the Tories. | |||
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"Fascinating programme on the BBC presented by David Dimbleby about Alistair Campbell and the spat Labour had with the BBC over the Gilligan affair leading to the death of David Kelly. Campbell came over as an out and out bully, an attack dog for Tony Blair. Those are the words of Dimbleby by the way! " Not sure this is fresh news to anyone. The character of Malcolm Tucker was based on Campbell. | |||
"Fascinating programme on the BBC presented by David Dimbleby about Alistair Campbell and the spat Labour had with the BBC over the Gilligan affair leading to the death of David Kelly. Campbell came over as an out and out bully, an attack dog for Tony Blair. Those are the words of Dimbleby by the way! Not sure this is fresh news to anyone. The character of Malcolm Tucker was based on Campbell." Capaldi was so great. | |||
"Fascinating programme on the BBC presented by David Dimbleby about Alistair Campbell and the spat Labour had with the BBC over the Gilligan affair leading to the death of David Kelly. Campbell came over as an out and out bully, an attack dog for Tony Blair. Those are the words of Dimbleby by the way! Not sure this is fresh news to anyone. The character of Malcolm Tucker was based on Campbell." I'm not Sky! One is permitted to remind people how aggressive Campbell was /is? A man apparently took his own life remember. Labour refused to allow a full coroner’s inquest to be held. | |||
"Fascinating programme on the BBC presented by David Dimbleby about Alistair Campbell and the spat Labour had with the BBC over the Gilligan affair leading to the death of David Kelly. Campbell came over as an out and out bully, an attack dog for Tony Blair. Those are the words of Dimbleby by the way! Not sure this is fresh news to anyone. The character of Malcolm Tucker was based on Campbell. I'm not Sky! One is permitted to remind people how aggressive Campbell was /is? A man apparently took his own life remember. Labour refused to allow a full coroner’s inquest to be held. " Never mind, they are all the same??? | |||
"Fascinating programme on the BBC presented by David Dimbleby about Alistair Campbell and the spat Labour had with the BBC over the Gilligan affair leading to the death of David Kelly. Campbell came over as an out and out bully, an attack dog for Tony Blair. Those are the words of Dimbleby by the way! Not sure this is fresh news to anyone. The character of Malcolm Tucker was based on Campbell. I'm not Sky! One is permitted to remind people how aggressive Campbell was /is? A man apparently took his own life remember. Labour refused to allow a full coroner’s inquest to be held. " You're not sky? Good to know. | |||
"Fascinating programme on the BBC presented by David Dimbleby about Alistair Campbell and the spat Labour had with the BBC over the Gilligan affair leading to the death of David Kelly. Campbell came over as an out and out bully, an attack dog for Tony Blair. Those are the words of Dimbleby by the way! Not sure this is fresh news to anyone. The character of Malcolm Tucker was based on Campbell. I'm not Sky! One is permitted to remind people how aggressive Campbell was /is? A man apparently took his own life remember. Labour refused to allow a full coroner’s inquest to be held. " Of course, say what you like. Even deny being sky, lol. I'm trying to figure out what that's a typo of. But yes. What's this got to do with the thread? | |||
"Fascinating programme on the BBC presented by David Dimbleby about Alistair Campbell and the spat Labour had with the BBC over the Gilligan affair leading to the death of David Kelly. Campbell came over as an out and out bully, an attack dog for Tony Blair. Those are the words of Dimbleby by the way! Not sure this is fresh news to anyone. The character of Malcolm Tucker was based on Campbell. I'm not Sky! One is permitted to remind people how aggressive Campbell was /is? A man apparently took his own life remember. Labour refused to allow a full coroner’s inquest to be held. Of course, say what you like. Even deny being sky, lol. I'm trying to figure out what that's a typo of. But yes. What's this got to do with the thread?" Maybe he's trying to prove that his thoughts are not clouded? | |||
