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The Future of the Union - after QE II
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"Whilst I understand and to a point agree with Scottish independence, I'm guessing that anyone voting for that would be thinking of political and economic independence and I'm no way leaving behind the monarchy which you've stated is an integral part of Scotland's history and heritage. The monarchy is and will always be above politics IMHO " You'd be wrong in that guess. Republicanism is very much an underpinning philosophy of the nationalist movement | |||
"Whilst I understand and to a point agree with Scottish independence, I'm guessing that anyone voting for that would be thinking of political and economic independence and I'm no way leaving behind the monarchy which you've stated is an integral part of Scotland's history and heritage. The monarchy is and will always be above politics IMHO You'd be wrong in that guess. Republicanism is very much an underpinning philosophy of the nationalist movement" I think I recall that fairly recently when sturgen was putting her latest case that she said they want to keep the queen as head of state of an independent Scotland. I have not yet heard her say now the queen has passed that she has changed her mind now Charles is king. Obviously it's to soon for such statements but would be interested to see if her stance changes. As far as I can work out the present royal family are direct descends of Mary queen of Scotland. | |||
"I don't think it has one, as it currently exists, partly due to people like me, who want Scotland to leave it. I acknowledge that it's under no immediate threat, since not enough Scots feel the way I do, about being ruled by Tories in Westminster - yet. In fact, I reckon that it will actually take "a generation". The nature of HMQ's passing, however, was not simply because she loved Scotland and its people so much, she wanted it to be that way. She was, unquestionably, politically astute - even though she was required to remain politically neutral. Her place of death was deliberate. It was a desperate wake up call to those who have governed us for over a decade. Like Her, they realise the significance of Scotland and its resources to the importance and prosperity of the UK as a whole. Unlike Her, they - and their supporters - love to treat the people of Scotland with utter contempt. They care nothing for us - they never have. Only our territory and resources matter to them. She knew, if she passed in Balmoral, an entire aspect of Scotland would be raised into the consciousness of millions of those who never give it a second thought. It was a plea. Treat these people as I have, with love and respect - because your failure to do so only alienates them from you further every day. Sadly, HMQ was wasting her time. The sort of people who are happy with Brexit, happy to break international law, happy with Boris Johnson as PM and happy to replace him with Liz Truss ... they're not going to be bothered about Scotland remaining part of the UK, any more than they were bothered about remaining part of the EU. RIP, your Majesty. It was worth a go." I agree the people of Scotland should choose their future. I also agree that due to brexit the once in a generation idea is not valid. You say you don't want to be ruled by the Tories in Westminster. What if the Tories were not in government? Would you want to be part of a union headed by a Labour government or lib dem government or some coalition? | |||
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"I think we are better and stronger as a united kingdom than separate countries I'd be more upset loosing that than being out of the EU more in common but be careful of what you wish for because some English might just give you it and no turning back no benefits no NHS no money straight split your on your own." That's a little bit if an assumption. Many Scots think they will be better off and you think they won't ? | |||
"I think we are better and stronger as a united kingdom than separate countries I'd be more upset loosing that than being out of the EU more in common but be careful of what you wish for because some English might just give you it and no turning back no benefits no NHS no money straight split your on your own." Explain how we would have no benefits,no nhs,no money ? | |||
"I think we are better and stronger as a united kingdom than separate countries I'd be more upset loosing that than being out of the EU more in common but be careful of what you wish for because some English might just give you it and no turning back no benefits no NHS no money straight split your on your own. Explain how we would have no benefits,no nhs,no money ?" because as I see it some are happy to let you leave but the moment you do all monies stop military all government jobs evening moves back to England and your left with what you have in your pockets no help no money sent up so you as a country would struggle to get loans like I've said I think we are better but I wouldn't stop you wanting to leave the union. | |||
" because as I see it some are happy to let you leave but the moment you do all monies stop military all government jobs evening moves back to England and your left with what you have in your pockets no help no money sent up so you as a country would struggle to get loans like I've said I think we are better but I wouldn't stop you wanting to leave the union." only in reality that's merely your wishful thinking based on your own hangups. any deal would be brokered with lots of compromise from both sides rather than a disgruntled and angry rant by a random sex site member. | |||
"I think we are better and stronger as a united kingdom than separate countries I'd be more upset loosing that than being out of the EU more in common but be careful of what you wish for because some English might just give you it and no turning back no benefits no NHS no money straight split your on your own. Explain how we would have no benefits,no nhs,no money ? because as I see it some are happy to let you leave but the moment you do all monies stop military all government jobs evening moves back to England and your left with what you have in your pockets no help no money sent up so you as a country would struggle to get loans like I've said I think we are better but I wouldn't stop you wanting to leave the union." Yea that 78billion we send to the treasury each year and get back less than 40 billion ,that sounds good to me :-  | |||
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"There has been a steady 45% in favour of independence and the vast majority of young people are pro-indy. The disaster of brexit and a horrific neo-fascist tory government will only strengthen the case, while the passing of Brenda provides an opportunity for Republicans to shine a spotlight on the outdated, anti-democratic anachronism that is monarchy. Whatever Sturgeon may say now, after indy the people of Scotland will decide between republic and feudal relic. After the nauseating, over-the-top BBC coverage of the last few days, it was encouraging to see today that the royal proclamation of Chucky as king by old geezers in silly uniforms, complete with cannon fire and trumpet fanfare, was met with boos by the people of Edinburgh. There absolutely no reason why Scotland should be unique among nations in not having a bright future (like Celtic cousins Ireland, ahead of UK for prosperity and happiness) - particularly once English resources-thieves have been forced to stop their pillaging ways (and boy, aren't we wealthy in natural resources). The increase in support for independence last time was amazing. It will only take a small push at the next vote to secure a majority. Tories, brexit and monarchy will make that effort easier. to convert" then good luck hope you get what you want as a nation you are entitled to your independence | |||
" because as I see it some are happy to let you leave but the moment you do all monies stop military all government jobs evening moves back to England and your left with what you have in your pockets no help no money sent up so you as a country would struggle to get loans like I've said I think we are better but I wouldn't stop you wanting to leave the union. only in reality that's merely your wishful thinking based on your own hangups. any deal would be brokered with lots of compromise from both sides rather than a disgruntled and angry rant by a random sex site member." haha hang ups in your short sighted views why if they left would they compromise just like the EU does with us don't think so | |||
"The silent majority of Scotland have shown today how much they care for the late Queen and the monarchy as a whole. This will not change any time soon. Current happenings may even strengthen the historic union. " It's laughable how people claim to be in the silent majority, without any facts whatever to back that up. | |||
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" was met with boos by the people of Edinburgh. " You mean a couple of absolute morons... Absolutely NOT the "people of Edinburgh" and those said idiots are quite frankly a fucking embarrassment to our country. | |||
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"Oh, dissenting views will not be tolerated!" There's a difference between a dissenting view and disrespect. One man shouted "Republic now" and his mate stared booing during the ceremony (both were robustly told to shut up by the crowd)... hardly "The people of Edinburgh" as you stated. Anyone has the right to object to the monarchy, even the delusional shite spouted by the wholly incompetent Scottish nationalist party (lets not sugar coat it) but there's a time, a place and democratic procedure. | |||
"The silent majority of Scotland have shown today how much they care for the late Queen and the monarchy as a whole. This will not change any time soon. Current happenings may even strengthen the historic union. " I guess they must be very silent. I haven't heard them  | |||
"I think we are better and stronger as a united kingdom than separate countries I'd be more upset loosing that than being out of the EU more in common but be careful of what you wish for because some English might just give you it and no turning back no benefits no NHS no money straight split your on your own. Explain how we would have no benefits,no nhs,no money ? because as I see it some are happy to let you leave but the moment you do all monies stop military all government jobs evening moves back to England and your left with what you have in your pockets no help no money sent up so you as a country would struggle to get loans like I've said I think we are better but I wouldn't stop you wanting to leave the union." No disrespect but your misinformed and wrong. | |||
"Oh, dissenting views will not be tolerated! There's a difference between a dissenting view and disrespect. One man shouted "Republic now" and his mate stared booing during the ceremony (both were robustly told to shut up by the crowd)... hardly "The people of Edinburgh" as you stated. Anyone has the right to object to the monarchy, even the delusional shite spouted by the wholly incompetent Scottish nationalist party (lets not sugar coat it) but there's a time, a place and democratic procedure. " Totally agree today is not the time to protest this should be about showing respect to the late queen,and im a nationalist and republican | |||
"The silent majority of Scotland have shown today how much they care for the late Queen and the monarchy as a whole. This will not change any time soon. Current happenings may even strengthen the historic union. " Id say most scots especially those under 40 have no time for the outdated monarchy,and now charles has agreed to tour uk cities with a right wing tory pm is a big big mistake as there are demonstrations being planned now,the monarchy will go the same way scottish labour went after 2014 wiped out | |||
"The silent majority of Scotland have shown today how much they care for the late Queen and the monarchy as a whole. This will not change any time soon. Current happenings may even strengthen the historic union. Id say most scots especially those under 40 have no time for the outdated monarchy,and now charles has agreed to tour uk cities with a right wing tory pm is a big big mistake as there are demonstrations being planned now,the monarchy will go the same way scottish labour went after 2014 wiped out " There will be a big need for therapy in Orange County. Mind you, there already is. | |||
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"What is the SNP policy on the Monarchy? " The official policy is to maintain the Queen as head of state post independence. However... Sentiment amongst nationalists is most decidedly against Royal involvement in Government. A poll taken by the National newspaper in June shows only 13% of respondents would be in favour of continuing with the British Monarchy. | |||
"What is the SNP policy on the Monarchy? The official policy is to maintain the Queen as head of state post independence. However... Sentiment amongst nationalists is most decidedly against Royal involvement in Government. A poll taken by the National newspaper in June shows only 13% of respondents would be in favour of continuing with the British Monarchy." So is that policy to get possible independence, and then jettison the Monarchy once achieved? Ms Sturgeon was belting out God Save The King yesterday. | |||
"What is the SNP policy on the Monarchy? The official policy is to maintain the Queen as head of state post independence. However... Sentiment amongst nationalists is most decidedly against Royal involvement in Government. A poll taken by the National newspaper in June shows only 13% of respondents would be in favour of continuing with the British Monarchy. So is that policy to get possible independence, and then jettison the Monarchy once achieved? Ms Sturgeon was belting out God Save The King yesterday." Omigosh! you've uncovered the sinister master plan! Now I shall I have to prepare an elaborate death trap (possibly involving sharks) to silence you 
Its simply not important to us. If the SNP wants to throw out a sop to the royalists, the most it will elicit from me is a shrug of the shoulders. | |||
"What is the SNP policy on the Monarchy? The official policy is to maintain the Queen as head of state post independence. However... Sentiment amongst nationalists is most decidedly against Royal involvement in Government. A poll taken by the National newspaper in June shows only 13% of respondents would be in favour of continuing with the British Monarchy. So is that policy to get possible independence, and then jettison the Monarchy once achieved? Ms Sturgeon was belting out God Save The King yesterday. Omigosh! you've uncovered the sinister master plan! Now I shall I have to prepare an elaborate death trap (possibly involving sharks) to silence you
Its simply not important to us. If the SNP wants to throw out a sop to the royalists, the most it will elicit from me is a shrug of the shoulders."No need 
Just curious on the SNP stance. Thanks for enlightening me. | |||
"What is the SNP policy on the Monarchy? The official policy is to maintain the Queen as head of state post independence. However... Sentiment amongst nationalists is most decidedly against Royal involvement in Government. A poll taken by the National newspaper in June shows only 13% of respondents would be in favour of continuing with the British Monarchy." Well it’s the national newspaper so would not expect much else 
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"I agree the people of Scotland should choose their future. I also agree that due to brexit the once in a generation idea is not valid. You say you don't want to be ruled by the Tories in Westminster. What if the Tories were not in government? Would you want to be part of a union headed by a Labour government or lib dem government or some coalition?" I'd be opposed to a Labour Government as well - for in order to get elected by the people of England, which is what is required to win a UK GE, it would need to be Tory-lite, as it was under Blair. That's what lost the Labour Party their support in Scotland. It won't be back any time soon - certainly not in any meaningful way. In any case, Labour have ruled out any coalition with even the Lib Dems, never mind the SNP. I've said before, if the UK Government were elected on a PR basis, as is the case in Germany, I'd be less keen on independence. However, it isn't - and the broken FPTP system regularly returns the worst kinds of Tory government available; and that's not even what the majority of voters in England want; never mind us Scots. The best bet the Labour Party have for the next UK GE is to form a minority government and, as Anas Sarwar rightly says, dare the SNP, the Lib Dems, etc to oppose (or fail to support) any Labour legislation - because to do so would make them no better than Tories. However, to do that, Labour will have to get more votes than the Tories at the next UK GE. If they can't do that, with Liz Truss as PM, it'll be the end of the Labour Party. To be left with "never ending" Tory rule, a one party state, in effect; would be disastrous for the Union. It's been disastrous for the past 12 years, after all. As I said in the OP; to preserve the Union, we Scots - and the Welsh and the Irish who are UK citizens - need to be treated with respect. They are by our Royalty - they most certainly are not by the UK Government. King Charles will, no doubt, try to persuade his Government of the need to change their attitude because he cares about what is at stake. However, as I implied, if his mother wasn't heeded, it seems unlikely he will be. | |||
"What is the SNP policy on the Monarchy?" It's been answered already but Scotland would be like Canada and Australia, with regard to the Monarchy. Like those countries, if enough people felt they wanted a vote on retaining (or not) the King as the head of state, there would be one. Personally, I'm not fussed either way. I don't think they do any harm - far from it - and they haven't held back any of the countries that gained independence from the Crown. If they were no longer involved in any way - fine. The sky would not fall in, the sun would still rise. | |||
"then good luck hope you get what you want as a nation you are entitled to your independence " That's not how His Majesty's Government see it. Self determination is vital for the people of Ukraine and for the people of Hong Kong. For the people of Scotland - not so much. They know what they would lose if they were to let us leave, if enough of us wanted to. As I've said before - it's not about us; it's about our resources. If a nation of 60 million is so desperate to keep them, you'd have to think they'd be able to sustain a nation of 5 million. After all, New Zealand, very similar to Scotland in terms of GDP, population and resources, manages ok - and it's not on Europe's doorstep. Nor is it rich in oil and gas (now that they seem to be important again - for a while, anyway). Why do you think Truss came up with such ridiculous new conditions for a second referendum to even take place and for a "Yes" vote to be valid? | |||
"then good luck hope you get what you want as a nation you are entitled to your independence That's not how His Majesty's Government see it. Self determination is vital for the people of Ukraine and for the people of Hong Kong. For the people of Scotland - not so much. They know what they would lose if they were to let us leave, if enough of us wanted to. As I've said before - it's not about us; it's about our resources. If a nation of 60 million is so desperate to keep them, you'd have to think they'd be able to sustain a nation of 5 million. After all, New Zealand, very similar to Scotland in terms of GDP, population and resources, manages ok - and it's not on Europe's doorstep. Nor is it rich in oil and gas (now that they seem to be important again - for a while, anyway). Why do you think Truss came up with such ridiculous new conditions for a second referendum to even take place and for a "Yes" vote to be valid?" It's the scots choices don't ya think? Who are you or anyone to deny their decisions. Same as Ireland . If they want to leave the union on a majority vote is that not democracy in action? | |||
"I don't think it has one, as it currently exists, partly due to people like me, who want Scotland to leave it. I acknowledge that it's under no immediate threat, since not enough Scots feel the way I do, about being ruled by Tories in Westminster - yet. In fact, I reckon that it will actually take "a generation". The nature of HMQ's passing, however, was not simply because she loved Scotland and its people so much, she wanted it to be that way. She was, unquestionably, politically astute - even though she was required to remain politically neutral. Her place of death was deliberate. It was a desperate wake up call to those who have governed us for over a decade. Like Her, they realise the significance of Scotland and its resources to the importance and prosperity of the UK as a whole. Unlike Her, they - and their supporters - love to treat the people of Scotland with utter contempt. They care nothing for us - they never have. Only our territory and resources matter to them. She knew, if she passed in Balmoral, an entire aspect of Scotland would be raised into the consciousness of millions of those who never give it a second thought. It was a plea. Treat these people as I have, with love and respect - because your failure to do so only alienates them from you further every day. Sadly, HMQ was wasting her time. The sort of people who are happy with Brexit, happy to break international law, happy with Boris Johnson as PM and happy to replace him with Liz Truss ... they're not going to be bothered about Scotland remaining part of the UK, any more than they were bothered about remaining part of the EU. RIP, your Majesty. It was worth a go." Maybe she just liked the view from her house in Scotland so she preferred to be there at the end. Or she was on holiday and death came suddenly. Not everything has to be part of some sinister Machiavellian plot. Sturgeon had her best chance for Scottish independence and blew it. The independence polls are turning against her, and everyone can see what a hash the SNP are making of the country in government. As an independent country under the SNP Scotland would be a third world tinpot dictatorship in a decade. | |||
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"I agree the people of Scotland should choose their future. I also agree that due to brexit the once in a generation idea is not valid. You say you don't want to be ruled by the Tories in Westminster. What if the Tories were not in government? Would you want to be part of a union headed by a Labour government or lib dem government or some coalition? I'd be opposed to a Labour Government as well - for in order to get elected by the people of England, which is what is required to win a UK GE, it would need to be Tory-lite, as it was under Blair. That's what lost the Labour Party their support in Scotland. It won't be back any time soon - certainly not in any meaningful way. In any case, Labour have ruled out any coalition with even the Lib Dems, never mind the SNP. I've said before, if the UK Government were elected on a PR basis, as is the case in Germany, I'd be less keen on independence. However, it isn't - and the broken FPTP system regularly returns the worst kinds of Tory government available; and that's not even what the majority of voters in England want; never mind us Scots. The best bet the Labour Party have for the next UK GE is to form a minority government and, as Anas Sarwar rightly says, dare the SNP, the Lib Dems, etc to oppose (or fail to support) any Labour legislation - because to do so would make them no better than Tories. However, to do that, Labour will have to get more votes than the Tories at the next UK GE. If they can't do that, with Liz Truss as PM, it'll be the end of the Labour Party. To be left with "never ending" Tory rule, a one party state, in effect; would be disastrous for the Union. It's been disastrous for the past 12 years, after all. As I said in the OP; to preserve the Union, we Scots - and the Welsh and the Irish who are UK citizens - need to be treated with respect. They are by our Royalty - they most certainly are not by the UK Government. King Charles will, no doubt, try to persuade his Government of the need to change their attitude because he cares about what is at stake. However, as I implied, if his mother wasn't heeded, it seems unlikely he will be." I understand why you would not want Scotland part of a Tory led UK and even a Tory light Labour UK. Do you place starmers Labour in the Tory light category? Out of interest if corbyn had won the Ge ( he came close once) would you be happy as remaining in the union? | |||
"I don't think it has one, as it currently exists, partly due to people like me, who want Scotland to leave it. I acknowledge that it's under no immediate threat, since not enough Scots feel the way I do, about being ruled by Tories in Westminster - yet. In fact, I reckon that it will actually take "a generation". The nature of HMQ's passing, however, was not simply because she loved Scotland and its people so much, she wanted it to be that way. She was, unquestionably, politically astute - even though she was required to remain politically neutral. Her place of death was deliberate. It was a desperate wake up call to those who have governed us for over a decade. Like Her, they realise the significance of Scotland and its resources to the importance and prosperity of the UK as a whole. Unlike Her, they - and their supporters - love to treat the people of Scotland with utter contempt. They care nothing for us - they never have. Only our territory and resources matter to them. She knew, if she passed in Balmoral, an entire aspect of Scotland would be raised into the consciousness of millions of those who never give it a second thought. It was a plea. Treat these people as I have, with love and respect - because your failure to do so only alienates them from you further every day. Sadly, HMQ was wasting her time. The sort of people who are happy with Brexit, happy to break international law, happy with Boris Johnson as PM and happy to replace him with Liz Truss ... they're not going to be bothered about Scotland remaining part of the UK, any more than they were bothered about remaining part of the EU. RIP, your Majesty. It was worth a go. Maybe she just liked the view from her house in Scotland so she preferred to be there at the end. Or she was on holiday and death came suddenly. Not everything has to be part of some sinister Machiavellian plot. Sturgeon had her best chance for Scottish independence and blew it. The independence polls are turning against her, and everyone can see what a hash the SNP are making of the country in government. As an independent country under the SNP Scotland would be a third world tinpot dictatorship in a decade." This  | |||
"I don't think it has one, as it currently exists, partly due to people like me, who want Scotland to leave it. I acknowledge that it's under no immediate threat, since not enough Scots feel the way I do, about being ruled by Tories in Westminster - yet. In fact, I reckon that it will actually take "a generation". The nature of HMQ's passing, however, was not simply because she loved Scotland and its people so much, she wanted it to be that way. She was, unquestionably, politically astute - even though she was required to remain politically neutral. Her place of death was deliberate. It was a desperate wake up call to those who have governed us for over a decade. Like Her, they realise the significance of Scotland and its resources to the importance and prosperity of the UK as a whole. Unlike Her, they - and their supporters - love to treat the people of Scotland with utter contempt. They care nothing for us - they never have. Only our territory and resources matter to them. She knew, if she passed in Balmoral, an entire aspect of Scotland would be raised into the consciousness of millions of those who never give it a second thought. It was a plea. Treat these people as I have, with love and respect - because your failure to do so only alienates them from you further every day. Sadly, HMQ was wasting her time. The sort of people who are happy with Brexit, happy to break international law, happy with Boris Johnson as PM and happy to replace him with Liz Truss ... they're not going to be bothered about Scotland remaining part of the UK, any more than they were bothered about remaining part of the EU. RIP, your Majesty. It was worth a go. Maybe she just liked the view from her house in Scotland so she preferred to be there at the end. Or she was on holiday and death came suddenly. Not everything has to be part of some sinister Machiavellian plot. Sturgeon had her best chance for Scottish independence and blew it. The independence polls are turning against her, and everyone can see what a hash the SNP are making of the country in government. As an independent country under the SNP Scotland would be a third world tinpot dictatorship in a decade." It's always good to have a view from ignorant people xouth of the border who know fuck-all about it and take their opinions from the msm | |||
"I don't think it has one, as it currently exists, partly due to people like me, who want Scotland to leave it. I acknowledge that it's under no immediate threat, since not enough Scots feel the way I do, about being ruled by Tories in Westminster - yet. In fact, I reckon that it will actually take "a generation". The nature of HMQ's passing, however, was not simply because she loved Scotland and its people so much, she wanted it to be that way. She was, unquestionably, politically astute - even though she was required to remain politically neutral. Her place of death was deliberate. It was a desperate wake up call to those who have governed us for over a decade. Like Her, they realise the significance of Scotland and its resources to the importance and prosperity of the UK as a whole. Unlike Her, they - and their supporters - love to treat the people of Scotland with utter contempt. They care nothing for us - they never have. Only our territory and resources matter to them. She knew, if she passed in Balmoral, an entire aspect of Scotland would be raised into the consciousness of millions of those who never give it a second thought. It was a plea. Treat these people as I have, with love and respect - because your failure to do so only alienates them from you further every day. Sadly, HMQ was wasting her time. The sort of people who are happy with Brexit, happy to break international law, happy with Boris Johnson as PM and happy to replace him with Liz Truss ... they're not going to be bothered about Scotland remaining part of the UK, any more than they were bothered about remaining part of the EU. RIP, your Majesty. It was worth a go. Maybe she just liked the view from her house in Scotland so she preferred to be there at the end. Or she was on holiday and death came suddenly. Not everything has to be part of some sinister Machiavellian plot. Sturgeon had her best chance for Scottish independence and blew it. The independence polls are turning against her, and everyone can see what a hash the SNP are making of the country in government. As an independent country under the SNP Scotland would be a third world tinpot dictatorship in a decade." -------- But.. but.. it doesn't have to be 'an independent country under the SNP'... There are, and would be, other parties to choose from. This is the big lie, the big deception.. that we would forever be governed by SNP with no other choice. That simply isn't, and needn't be, the case. ------------ | |||
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"But.. but.. it doesn't have to be 'an independent country under the SNP'... There are, and would be, other parties to choose from." There are other parties, but they all say that independence would be a bad idea. If you believe that those parties would be better at running the country, then logically you have to also believe that independence is not the right way to go. | |||
"Anyone who thinks a ruling SNP are going to give up any power in an independent Scotland has not been watching. There every instincts is to gather power and centralise it . They gave been in power for over a decade and so far are at best a C minus" It isn't up to the SNP to 'give up power'. If the public vote them out they would have to accept that. | |||
"But.. but.. it doesn't have to be 'an independent country under the SNP'... There are, and would be, other parties to choose from. There are other parties, but they all say that independence would be a bad idea. If you believe that those parties would be better at running the country, then logically you have to also believe that independence is not the right way to go." ---- Whether or not I believe other parties would be better at running the country (or not) is irrelevant. I was simply refuting the inference that as an independent country Scotland would automatically be run by the SNP forever more with no alternative choice. If you believe that if/when Scotland becomes an independent state the other parties (Labour, Lib dems, Greens, Tories etc) are going to shut up shop because they don't believe in independence, leaving the SNP to govern in a 1 party state, that is bonkers in my opinion. ------- | |||
"But.. but.. it doesn't have to be 'an independent country under the SNP'... There are, and would be, other parties to choose from. There are other parties, but they all say that independence would be a bad idea." "If you believe that those parties would be better at running the country, then logically you have to also believe that independence is not the right way to go." "---- Whether or not I believe other parties would be better at running the country (or not) is irrelevant. I was simply refuting the inference that as an independent country Scotland would automatically be run by the SNP forever more with no alternative choice. If you believe that if/when Scotland becomes an independent state the other parties (Labour, Lib dems, Greens, Tories etc) are going to shut up shop because they don't believe in independence, leaving the SNP to govern in a 1 party state, that is bonkers in my opinion. -------" I wasn't aiming at you, I was trying to make a general point. Lots of people in Scotland have invested their hopes and emotions into the SNP, fighting for independence. They hear the other parties saying that separation is a bad idea, and they ignore those parties, because they want independence and that's what the SNP is proudly promoting. If Scotland becomes independent, what makes you think that all those people are going to forget the past, drop the SNP, and vote for one of those other parties that used to oppose separation? It seems more likely to me that those people that currently support the SNP will continue to do so after independence, because that's what they've always done. | |||
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" That is the problem take away the independence issue and the SNP are a middle of the road very beige party with no clear vision of the way to get the country on a road to prosperity Anyone being honest has to admit that the level of incompetence from the Scottish govt is appalling" Hell will freeze over before a Nat acknowledges the glaring incompetence of the ScotGov. “Nothing to see here … look over there, bad bad Westminster” | |||
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"What happens with the oil ?" According to SNP policy, the oil stays in the ground. They have "the most ambitious legal framework for emissions reduction in the world", so they won't be allowing any more exploitation of their natural resources. They'll have to look somewhere else for all the money they will be needing. | |||
" That is the problem take away the independence issue and the SNP are a middle of the road very beige party with no clear vision of the way to get the country on a road to prosperity Anyone being honest has to admit that the level of incompetence from the Scottish govt is appalling" ------ And where / what is the 'clear vision' from Westminster..?? I certainly haven't seen or heard it. ------- | |||
" That is the problem take away the independence issue and the SNP are a middle of the road very beige party with no clear vision of the way to get the country on a road to prosperity Anyone being honest has to admit that the level of incompetence from the Scottish govt is appalling Hell will freeze over before a Nat acknowledges the glaring incompetence of the ScotGov. “Nothing to see here … look over there, bad bad Westminster” " ------- Westminster is the epitome of incompetence, but the blind refuse to realise it. Blame everything on someone else, 'look over there'... world recession, covid, war in Ukraine.... but nothing to do with us partying, or dishing out contracts to our already-wealthy mates, or blindly following the US into Iraq, or telling lies on the side of a bus to achieve the dream of Brexit, or allowing energy companies to make obscene profits while people risk freezing to death, or, or... -------- | |||
"What happens with the oil ? According to SNP policy, the oil stays in the ground. They have "the most ambitious legal framework for emissions reduction in the world", so they won't be allowing any more exploitation of their natural resources. They'll have to look somewhere else for all the money they will be needing." ------ What about the 1st part of the question..? 'can Scotland be financially solvent independently'? ------ | |||
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"But.. but.. it doesn't have to be 'an independent country under the SNP'... There are, and would be, other parties to choose from. There are other parties, but they all say that independence would be a bad idea. If you believe that those parties would be better at running the country, then logically you have to also believe that independence is not the right way to go. ---- Whether or not I believe other parties would be better at running the country (or not) is irrelevant. I was simply refuting the inference that as an independent country Scotland would automatically be run by the SNP forever more with no alternative choice. If you believe that if/when Scotland becomes an independent state the other parties (Labour, Lib dems, Greens, Tories etc) are going to shut up shop because they don't believe in independence, leaving the SNP to govern in a 1 party state, that is bonkers in my opinion. ------- I wasn't aiming at you, I was trying to make a general point. Lots of people in Scotland have invested their hopes and emotions into the SNP, fighting for independence. They hear the other parties saying that separation is a bad idea, and they ignore those parties, because they want independence and that's what the SNP is proudly promoting. If Scotland becomes independent, what makes you think that all those people are going to forget the past, drop the SNP, and vote for one of those other parties that used to oppose separation? It seems more likely to me that those people that currently support the SNP will continue to do so after independence, because that's what they've always done." ------ Of course people will be able to support or continue to support any party they choose, but equally they will be free to vote for another party if they so wish. That's the point I was trying to make. The fearmongers try to perpetuate the myth that if Scotland votes for independence then we will be saddled with an SNP government for ever more. That simply is not true. Many Scots (in my opinion) are simply AFRAID of the thought of independence, and that fear is reinforced whenever there is a general election (or referendum!) and politicians from Westminster head north, in their droves, to frighten the populace further and whip them back into place... thereby retaining Westminsters grip, not only on power but also on resources which are desperately needed in the south. Maintain the fear.. retain power. ------- | |||
"Talk about dishing out contracts (Covid) in Private Eye a Company with no history of being involved in medical supplies was awarded a Gov contract. The figures are horrific. Pre the pandemic they turned over £7m employing 43 staff. Post Covid they turned over £77m employing 46 staff !!! You couldn’t make this up and this is only one example. " Turnover is just how much stuff the company sold, it doesn't tell you anything about profit. If they bought £70m of PPE, and sold it to the government for £70m, that's an increase of £70m in turnover, but no extra profit. | |||
"Talk about dishing out contracts (Covid) in Private Eye a Company with no history of being involved in medical supplies was awarded a Gov contract. The figures are horrific. Pre the pandemic they turned over £7m employing 43 staff. Post Covid they turned over £77m employing 46 staff !!! You couldn’t make this up and this is only one example. Turnover is just how much stuff the company sold, it doesn't tell you anything about profit. If they bought £70m of PPE, and sold it to the government for £70m, that's an increase of £70m in turnover, but no extra profit." They made £43m profit. | |||
" That is the problem take away the independence issue and the SNP are a middle of the road very beige party with no clear vision of the way to get the country on a road to prosperity Anyone being honest has to admit that the level of incompetence from the Scottish govt is appalling" Was it any better when Alex Salmon was in charge ? | |||
" Was it any better when Alex Salmon was in charge ?" Yes, everyone knew their plaice but you could rely on the government when the chips were down and people's wallets were getting battered. | |||
" That is the problem take away the independence issue and the SNP are a middle of the road very beige party with no clear vision of the way to get the country on a road to prosperity Anyone being honest has to admit that the level of incompetence from the Scottish govt is appalling" Think you are in the minority of scots who think that,thats why snp have won every general and scottish elections for about 13yrs | |||
"What happens with the oil ? According to SNP policy, the oil stays in the ground. They have "the most ambitious legal framework for emissions reduction in the world", so they won't be allowing any more exploitation of their natural resources. They'll have to look somewhere else for all the money they will be needing. ------ What about the 1st part of the question..? 'can Scotland be financially solvent independently'? ------" I find it extraordinary that anyone would even think of asking this question. Why would Scotland be unique among nations in this respect? Then, add in Scotland's wealth of natural resources (that wealth admittedly diminished by 50 years of pillaging by the resources-thieves in London) and the question is even more incredible. We must ensure, by voting for independence, that our valuable wealth in water and renewables will not also be plundered by London's empire wallahs. | |||
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"The SNP have a very efficient party machine. But truth be told they couldn't run a sweet shop. The most recent election saw there vote share as 34.1% . So in reality one in three vote SNP. Which does not put me in the minority at all. The list of failure, bigotry and sexual indiscretions is an embarrassment to all but the deluded. So time to admit it all they have is an independence dream Otherwise the cupboard is bare on effective govt policies" At least half of the population want to live in a normal nation state. Until that is resolved, the SNP will dominate. No one is going back the way. Normality can't be halted. | |||
"The SNP have a very efficient party machine. But truth be told they couldn't run a sweet shop. The most recent election saw there vote share as 34.1% . So in reality one in three vote SNP. Which does not put me in the minority at all. The list of failure, bigotry and sexual indiscretions is an embarrassment to all but the deluded. So time to admit it all they have is an independence dream Otherwise the cupboard is bare on effective govt policies" Do their coalition partners, the Greens, favour Independence? | |||
"The SNP have a very efficient party machine. But truth be told they couldn't run a sweet shop. The most recent election saw there vote share as 34.1% . So in reality one in three vote SNP. Which does not put me in the minority at all. The list of failure, bigotry and sexual indiscretions is an embarrassment to all but the deluded. So time to admit it all they have is an independence dream Otherwise the cupboard is bare on effective govt policies Do their coalition partners, the Greens, favour Independence?" Yes | |||
"then good luck hope you get what you want as a nation you are entitled to your independence That's not how His Majesty's Government see it. Self determination is vital for the people of Ukraine and for the people of Hong Kong. For the people of Scotland - not so much. They know what they would lose if they were to let us leave, if enough of us wanted to. As I've said before - it's not about us; it's about our resources. If a nation of 60 million is so desperate to keep them, you'd have to think they'd be able to sustain a nation of 5 million. After all, New Zealand, very similar to Scotland in terms of GDP, population and resources, manages ok - and it's not on Europe's doorstep. Nor is it rich in oil and gas (now that they seem to be important again - for a while, anyway). Why do you think Truss came up with such ridiculous new conditions for a second referendum to even take place and for a "Yes" vote to be valid? It's the scots choices don't ya think? Who are you or anyone to deny their decisions. Same as Ireland . If they want to leave the union on a majority vote is that not democracy in action? " The fact that you've utterly misunderstood that's the point I'm making does not surprise me at all. | |||
"I agree the people of Scotland should choose their future. I also agree that due to brexit the once in a generation idea is not valid. You say you don't want to be ruled by the Tories in Westminster. What if the Tories were not in government? Would you want to be part of a union headed by a Labour government or lib dem government or some coalition? I'd be opposed to a Labour Government as well - for in order to get elected by the people of England, which is what is required to win a UK GE, it would need to be Tory-lite, as it was under Blair. That's what lost the Labour Party their support in Scotland. It won't be back any time soon - certainly not in any meaningful way. In any case, Labour have ruled out any coalition with even the Lib Dems, never mind the SNP. I've said before, if the UK Government were elected on a PR basis, as is the case in Germany, I'd be less keen on independence. However, it isn't - and the broken FPTP system regularly returns the worst kinds of Tory government available; and that's not even what the majority of voters in England want; never mind us Scots. The best bet the Labour Party have for the next UK GE is to form a minority government and, as Anas Sarwar rightly says, dare the SNP, the Lib Dems, etc to oppose (or fail to support) any Labour legislation - because to do so would make them no better than Tories. However, to do that, Labour will have to get more votes than the Tories at the next UK GE. If they can't do that, with Liz Truss as PM, it'll be the end of the Labour Party. To be left with "never ending" Tory rule, a one party state, in effect; would be disastrous for the Union. It's been disastrous for the past 12 years, after all. As I said in the OP; to preserve the Union, we Scots - and the Welsh and the Irish who are UK citizens - need to be treated with respect. They are by our Royalty - they most certainly are not by the UK Government. King Charles will, no doubt, try to persuade his Government of the need to change their attitude because he cares about what is at stake. However, as I implied, if his mother wasn't heeded, it seems unlikely he will be. I understand why you would not want Scotland part of a Tory led UK and even a Tory light Labour UK. Do you place starmers Labour in the Tory light category? Out of interest if corbyn had won the Ge ( he came close once) would you be happy as remaining in the union?" No, I wouldn't have. As I've said, I want to live in a representative democracy. The UK isn't one. A lot of Scots don't want to, though. They prefer rule from Westminster. Roughly half of them vote Tory, the other half Labour / Lib Dem. The tragedy is that those who vote Labour / Lib Dem are unable to come to terms with the fact that, as long as England returns a Tory government for the UK; there will be an SNP government in Scotland. In an independent Scotland, it's highly likely that the SNP, quite rightly, would be out on their arse and Labour could form a government, with the SNP in opposition. It's been that way before, in Holyrood - but Labour got arrogant with the voters and blew it. Same as they later did in 2019, with the voters of the Midlands and the North of England; because they never fucking learn. Their supporters, up here, still think they have some sort of "right to rule". The SNP - for all their many, many flaws - have not fallen into that trap. As for all those people who are hard of understanding and think Scotland is a one party state - it demonstrably isn't. Nor would it be, if it were to become independent. The same can't be said of the UK as a whole. Policy is currently dictated by a PM unelected in a UK GE and whose majority in Parliament was delivered, by the FPTP system, on under 50% of the popular vote. Don't tell me that's representative democracy. The arithmetic says otherwise. | |||
"The SNP have a very efficient party machine. But truth be told they couldn't run a sweet shop. The most recent election saw there vote share as 34.1% . So in reality one in three vote SNP. Which does not put me in the minority at all. The list of failure, bigotry and sexual indiscretions is an embarrassment to all but the deluded. So time to admit it all they have is an independence dream Otherwise the cupboard is bare on effective govt policies" I guess you could make a broadly similar point about the Tories, in Westminster. Both are valid viewpoints, to be fair. However, you need to get over the fact that, unless Scotland becomes independent Labour are never going to be in power in Holyrood again; even if SKS manages a win against Truss, in a couple of years. His problem is opposition. He can't oppose effectively because he needs to win over enough Tory voters, down South. That's not going to impress enough voters in Scotland, to change their minds. Blair proved that, if you can be just Tory enough, you can win a UK GE. Starmer has to do the same, or he's sunk. And he's got a far tougher task - England is a far more right wing, now; than it was when Blair stole Thatcher's clothes. | |||
"I agree the people of Scotland should choose their future. I also agree that due to brexit the once in a generation idea is not valid. You say you don't want to be ruled by the Tories in Westminster. What if the Tories were not in government? Would you want to be part of a union headed by a Labour government or lib dem government or some coalition? I'd be opposed to a Labour Government as well - for in order to get elected by the people of England, which is what is required to win a UK GE, it would need to be Tory-lite, as it was under Blair. That's what lost the Labour Party their support in Scotland. It won't be back any time soon - certainly not in any meaningful way. In any case, Labour have ruled out any coalition with even the Lib Dems, never mind the SNP. I've said before, if the UK Government were elected on a PR basis, as is the case in Germany, I'd be less keen on independence. However, it isn't - and the broken FPTP system regularly returns the worst kinds of Tory government available; and that's not even what the majority of voters in England want; never mind us Scots. The best bet the Labour Party have for the next UK GE is to form a minority government and, as Anas Sarwar rightly says, dare the SNP, the Lib Dems, etc to oppose (or fail to support) any Labour legislation - because to do so would make them no better than Tories. However, to do that, Labour will have to get more votes than the Tories at the next UK GE. If they can't do that, with Liz Truss as PM, it'll be the end of the Labour Party. To be left with "never ending" Tory rule, a one party state, in effect; would be disastrous for the Union. It's been disastrous for the past 12 years, after all. As I said in the OP; to preserve the Union, we Scots - and the Welsh and the Irish who are UK citizens - need to be treated with respect. They are by our Royalty - they most certainly are not by the UK Government. King Charles will, no doubt, try to persuade his Government of the need to change their attitude because he cares about what is at stake. However, as I implied, if his mother wasn't heeded, it seems unlikely he will be. I understand why you would not want Scotland part of a Tory led UK and even a Tory light Labour UK. Do you place starmers Labour in the Tory light category? Out of interest if corbyn had won the Ge ( he came close once) would you be happy as remaining in the union? No, I wouldn't have. As I've said, I want to live in a representative democracy. The UK isn't one. A lot of Scots don't want to, though. They prefer rule from Westminster. Roughly half of them vote Tory, the other half Labour / Lib Dem. The tragedy is that those who vote Labour / Lib Dem are unable to come to terms with the fact that, as long as England returns a Tory government for the UK; there will be an SNP government in Scotland. In an independent Scotland, it's highly likely that the SNP, quite rightly, would be out on their arse and Labour could form a government, with the SNP in opposition. It's been that way before, in Holyrood - but Labour got arrogant with the voters and blew it. Same as they later did in 2019, with the voters of the Midlands and the North of England; because they never fucking learn. Their supporters, up here, still think they have some sort of "right to rule". The SNP - for all their many, many flaws - have not fallen into that trap. As for all those people who are hard of understanding and think Scotland is a one party state - it demonstrably isn't. Nor would it be, if it were to become independent. The same can't be said of the UK as a whole. Policy is currently dictated by a PM unelected in a UK GE and whose majority in Parliament was delivered, by the FPTP system, on under 50% of the popular vote. Don't tell me that's representative democracy. The arithmetic says otherwise." Scotland has more representative democracy than any other part of the UK This idea that Scotland is ruled from Westminster on the stuff that matters to the everyday lives of us in Scotland - is a fallacy that you keep pushing over and over. We vote for our councils who run our stuff! We vote on our own government - who control and run the stuff from central ScotGov and control the stuff our council’s run … and we also do vote on Westminster - who don’t touch the stuff that makes a difference to our everyday lives. The fallacy of we need a representative democracy is nonsense. | |||
"I agree the people of Scotland should choose their future. I also agree that due to brexit the once in a generation idea is not valid. You say you don't want to be ruled by the Tories in Westminster. What if the Tories were not in government? Would you want to be part of a union headed by a Labour government or lib dem government or some coalition? I'd be opposed to a Labour Government as well - for in order to get elected by the people of England, which is what is required to win a UK GE, it would need to be Tory-lite, as it was under Blair. That's what lost the Labour Party their support in Scotland. It won't be back any time soon - certainly not in any meaningful way. In any case, Labour have ruled out any coalition with even the Lib Dems, never mind the SNP. I've said before, if the UK Government were elected on a PR basis, as is the case in Germany, I'd be less keen on independence. However, it isn't - and the broken FPTP system regularly returns the worst kinds of Tory government available; and that's not even what the majority of voters in England want; never mind us Scots. The best bet the Labour Party have for the next UK GE is to form a minority government and, as Anas Sarwar rightly says, dare the SNP, the Lib Dems, etc to oppose (or fail to support) any Labour legislation - because to do so would make them no better than Tories. However, to do that, Labour will have to get more votes than the Tories at the next UK GE. If they can't do that, with Liz Truss as PM, it'll be the end of the Labour Party. To be left with "never ending" Tory rule, a one party state, in effect; would be disastrous for the Union. It's been disastrous for the past 12 years, after all. As I said in the OP; to preserve the Union, we Scots - and the Welsh and the Irish who are UK citizens - need to be treated with respect. They are by our Royalty - they most certainly are not by the UK Government. King Charles will, no doubt, try to persuade his Government of the need to change their attitude because he cares about what is at stake. However, as I implied, if his mother wasn't heeded, it seems unlikely he will be. I understand why you would not want Scotland part of a Tory led UK and even a Tory light Labour UK. Do you place starmers Labour in the Tory light category? Out of interest if corbyn had won the Ge ( he came close once) would you be happy as remaining in the union? No, I wouldn't have. As I've said, I want to live in a representative democracy. The UK isn't one. A lot of Scots don't want to, though. They prefer rule from Westminster. Roughly half of them vote Tory, the other half Labour / Lib Dem. The tragedy is that those who vote Labour / Lib Dem are unable to come to terms with the fact that, as long as England returns a Tory government for the UK; there will be an SNP government in Scotland. In an independent Scotland, it's highly likely that the SNP, quite rightly, would be out on their arse and Labour could form a government, with the SNP in opposition. It's been that way before, in Holyrood - but Labour got arrogant with the voters and blew it. Same as they later did in 2019, with the voters of the Midlands and the North of England; because they never fucking learn. Their supporters, up here, still think they have some sort of "right to rule". The SNP - for all their many, many flaws - have not fallen into that trap. As for all those people who are hard of understanding and think Scotland is a one party state - it demonstrably isn't. Nor would it be, if it were to become independent. The same can't be said of the UK as a whole. Policy is currently dictated by a PM unelected in a UK GE and whose majority in Parliament was delivered, by the FPTP system, on under 50% of the popular vote. Don't tell me that's representative democracy. The arithmetic says otherwise. Scotland has more representative democracy than any other part of the UK This idea that Scotland is ruled from Westminster on the stuff that matters to the everyday lives of us in Scotland - is a fallacy that you keep pushing over and over. We vote for our councils who run our stuff! We vote on our own government - who control and run the stuff from central ScotGov and control the stuff our council’s run … and we also do vote on Westminster - who don’t touch the stuff that makes a difference to our everyday lives. The fallacy of we need a representative democracy is nonsense." I don't want over representation. I do want to be the same as every other nation state. Not better. Not worse. Just equal. | |||
"Scotland has more representative democracy than any other part of the UK This idea that Scotland is ruled from Westminster on the stuff that matters to the everyday lives of us in Scotland - is a fallacy that you keep pushing over and over. We vote for our councils who run our stuff! We vote on our own government - who control and run the stuff from central ScotGov and control the stuff our council’s run … and we also do vote on Westminster - who don’t touch the stuff that makes a difference to our everyday lives. The fallacy of we need a representative democracy is nonsense." Untrue - we have the same level of democracy as Wales and N. Ireland. You've just said you believe that the need representative democracy is a fallacy. That means that you're fine with unrepresentative democracy - which is no democracy at all, since it does not reflect the votes cast. That you are ok with that speaks volumes. You may be fine with things the way they are. I am not. Unlike you, I believe Scotland should be able to determine its own destiny. No matter what you think, it cannot do that if it remains part of the UK. That's because our vote to determine the make up of the Westminster Parliament has no significant effect on the outcome. That outcome determines what we can and can't do. And if you don't think that being able to determine your own policy on finances, immigration, trade and energy have no effect on your daily life; I can understand why you also fail to grasp the importance of living in a democracy where you get to decide who has control of them. Right now - you don't, unless, like yourself, you don't live in Scotland, Wales or N. Ireland. You're fine with that. I'm not. Calling the need for representative democracy a fallacy, doesn't do your argument much good. After all, if it's a fallacy, a nonsense - as you would have it - why has it worked so well in Germany, or New Zealand, or Israel? And, if it makes the Holyrood Parliament so powerful - as you clearly believe it to be; why would it be so terrible on a national scale? Keep telling me I shouldn't be voting for change - and I'll keep ignoring your ridiculous notions of what real democracy is. Scotland really isn't the country you left any more. It hasn't been for years. I know you can't accept that - but it doesn't matter. Any more than your argument against self determination does. | |||
"Scotland has more representative democracy than any other part of the UK This idea that Scotland is ruled from Westminster on the stuff that matters to the everyday lives of us in Scotland - is a fallacy that you keep pushing over and over. We vote for our councils who run our stuff! We vote on our own government - who control and run the stuff from central ScotGov and control the stuff our council’s run … and we also do vote on Westminster - who don’t touch the stuff that makes a difference to our everyday lives. The fallacy of we need a representative democracy is nonsense. I don't want over representation. I do want to be the same as every other nation state. Not better. Not worse. Just equal." Fair point. However, Mr. BW thinks we already have all the democracy we should be allowed and that we shouldn't expect any more. After all, what would we do with it? | |||
"Scotland has more representative democracy than any other part of the UK This idea that Scotland is ruled from Westminster on the stuff that matters to the everyday lives of us in Scotland - is a fallacy that you keep pushing over and over. We vote for our councils who run our stuff! We vote on our own government - who control and run the stuff from central ScotGov and control the stuff our council’s run … and we also do vote on Westminster - who don’t touch the stuff that makes a difference to our everyday lives. The fallacy of we need a representative democracy is nonsense. Untrue - we have the same level of democracy as Wales and N. Ireland. You've just said you believe that the need representative democracy is a fallacy. That means that you're fine with unrepresentative democracy - which is no democracy at all, since it does not reflect the votes cast. That you are ok with that speaks volumes. You may be fine with things the way they are. I am not. Unlike you, I believe Scotland should be able to determine its own destiny. No matter what you think, it cannot do that if it remains part of the UK. That's because our vote to determine the make up of the Westminster Parliament has no significant effect on the outcome. That outcome determines what we can and can't do. And if you don't think that being able to determine your own policy on finances, immigration, trade and energy have no effect on your daily life; I can understand why you also fail to grasp the importance of living in a democracy where you get to decide who has control of them. Right now - you don't, unless, like yourself, you don't live in Scotland, Wales or N. Ireland. You're fine with that. I'm not. Calling the need for representative democracy a fallacy, doesn't do your argument much good. After all, if it's a fallacy, a nonsense - as you would have it - why has it worked so well in Germany, or New Zealand, or Israel? And, if it makes the Holyrood Parliament so powerful - as you clearly believe it to be; why would it be so terrible on a national scale? Keep telling me I shouldn't be voting for change - and I'll keep ignoring your ridiculous notions of what real democracy is. Scotland really isn't the country you left any more. It hasn't been for years. I know you can't accept that - but it doesn't matter. Any more than your argument against self determination does." So much of this is wrong and avoids/reframes the facts of the current devolved powers and responsibilities in Scotland. | |||
