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By *V-Alice OP TV/TS
over a year ago
Ayr |
They're a fairly new thing, there weren't any (as we know them) 200 years ago.
Over those years, more and more people have been enfranchised - men who didn't own land, women (eventually) and, lately - for some elections - 16 year olds.
Hard to oppose any of that, if you truly believe that democracy is the way to go - and it really is. Over half the world's population gets to vote, now.
However, the two major opponents to the ideal - China and Russia - have never been democracies.
In China's case, for over 3,500 years - and they might argue they've done fine without it.
So, the question is; can the World's democracies - particularly the USA, India, the UK, the EU countries, etc - learn to live in a world where such a China (or Russia) exists, without coming into conflict with it?
Can they bear to do it? We tolerate all sorts of religious systems (mostly).
Can we do the same with political systems?
Will we have to - if we don't want a Third World War? |
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When democratic countries go after individuals for telling the truth about the wrong doings of a democratic country and throw them in jail.
That is not democratic.
Free Julian Assange.
Free Julian Assange. |
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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago
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Interesting topic. I think as long as the authoritarian regimes keep it to their own countries, it makes sense to leave those countries to themselves. The damage caused by wars is much worse than anything the authoritarian government would do.
It's only when the authoritarian government tries to mess up other democracies, they need to get involved. One good thing that the increase in world trade has done is that you can fight these countries without actually going into a physical war. People like to make fun of sanctions. But they are very effective and Russia for example cannot sustain long term with all the sanctions.
That's one of the reasons why China likes to have Chinese owned businesses flourishing inside instead of allowing multi national companies.
But anyway, as long as the authoritarian regimes keep it to themselves, other democracies shouldn't interfere in these matters. It's the duty of the people in the countries concerned to figure it out themselves. |
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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago
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"You might be surprised how long Russia can survive in partnership with china and ignoring the rest of the world"
Sure I just read that China is turning its back on him too |
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By *I TwoCouple
over a year ago
PDI 12-26th Nov 24 |
"You might be surprised how long Russia can survive in partnership with china and ignoring the rest of the world
Sure I just read that China is turning its back on him too"
Last I heard the Chinese refused to use the word invasion |
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By *6travellerMan
over a year ago
Tayside, Midlands and Chester |
“ Interesting topic. I think as long as the authoritarian regimes keep it to their own countries, it makes sense to leave those countries to themselves. ” you must be talking about Scotland and the wee mad dictator we have to suffer. No she is not elected first minister, the list system is so corrupt it is not reflective of the countries mood or support. |
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By *V-Alice OP TV/TS
over a year ago
Ayr |
"Interesting topic. I think as long as the authoritarian regimes keep it to their own countries, it makes sense to leave those countries to themselves. The damage caused by wars is much worse than anything the authoritarian government would do.
It's only when the authoritarian government tries to mess up other democracies, they need to get involved. One good thing that the increase in world trade has done is that you can fight these countries without actually going into a physical war. People like to make fun of sanctions. But they are very effective and Russia for example cannot sustain long term with all the sanctions.
That's one of the reasons why China likes to have Chinese owned businesses flourishing inside instead of allowing multi national companies.
But anyway, as long as the authoritarian regimes keep it to themselves, other democracies shouldn't interfere in these matters. It's the duty of the people in the countries concerned to figure it out themselves."
I think we, in the West, are going to have to put up with their ideologies and methods, as you say, unless they represent an existential threat to our way of life.
Neither China nor (particularly) Russia have the capacity, nor the desire to become such a threat; beyond already being able to make the obvious threat of MAD, which the USA, UK and France all make in their turn.
The Saudis - just like the Russians - murder journalists but we don't sanction them. We aren't taking serious sanctions against China, either - and they're actively engaged in genocide.
So, the West really can turn a blind eye if it wants or needs to. |
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By *I TwoCouple
over a year ago
PDI 12-26th Nov 24 |
"Watching Putin on the news, is it the translation or is this the ramblings of a man who has lost his marbles?
Compare and contrast to Boris ?
Really? I don’t see the comparison 
"
You really can't see the similarities between two rambling idiots  |
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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago
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" One good thing that the increase in world trade has done is that you can fight these countries without actually going into a physical war. People like to make fun of sanctions. But they are very effective and Russia for example cannot sustain long term with all the sanctions.
"
Can I ask you what you base that on. I mean sanctions have hardly brought Cuba, Iran, North Korea and Venezuela to beg for forgiveness.
So why do you think Russia a much wealthier country than the mentioned be so quick to give up..? |
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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago
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"Interesting topic. I think as long as the authoritarian regimes keep it to their own countries, it makes sense to leave those countries to themselves. The damage caused by wars is much worse than anything the authoritarian government would do.
It's only when the authoritarian government tries to mess up other democracies, they need to get involved. One good thing that the increase in world trade has done is that you can fight these countries without actually going into a physical war. People like to make fun of sanctions. But they are very effective and Russia for example cannot sustain long term with all the sanctions.
That's one of the reasons why China likes to have Chinese owned businesses flourishing inside instead of allowing multi national companies.
But anyway, as long as the authoritarian regimes keep it to themselves, other democracies shouldn't interfere in these matters. It's the duty of the people in the countries concerned to figure it out themselves.
I think we, in the West, are going to have to put up with their ideologies and methods, as you say, unless they represent an existential threat to our way of life.
Neither China nor (particularly) Russia have the capacity, nor the desire to become such a threat; beyond already being able to make the obvious threat of MAD, which the USA, UK and France all make in their turn.
The Saudis - just like the Russians - murder journalists but we don't sanction them. We aren't taking serious sanctions against China, either - and they're actively engaged in genocide.
So, the West really can turn a blind eye if it wants or needs to."
Agreed  |
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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago
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" One good thing that the increase in world trade has done is that you can fight these countries without actually going into a physical war. People like to make fun of sanctions. But they are very effective and Russia for example cannot sustain long term with all the sanctions.
Can I ask you what you base that on. I mean sanctions have hardly brought Cuba, Iran, North Korea and Venezuela to beg for forgiveness.
So why do you think Russia a much wealthier country than the mentioned be so quick to give up..?"
They have two options. One is to live with sanctions. That's what egomaniacs ruling the places you mentioned did. You know the impact it caused to the life and economies of these countries. They will eventually become much weaker compared to other countries that thet are not a concern anymore.
The other option is to give up on one's ego and take steps to avoid the sanctions. But people like Putin and other authoritarians who do such things are not capable of giving up their ego. Eventually it's the people who will be affected by the sanctions and it's the people who should revolt against these authoritarians. Ideally Putin should realise that the country will be fucked if he continues. Whether that happens is something for us to wait and see. |
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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago
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" One good thing that the increase in world trade has done is that you can fight these countries without actually going into a physical war. People like to make fun of sanctions. But they are very effective and Russia for example cannot sustain long term with all the sanctions.
Can I ask you what you base that on. I mean sanctions have hardly brought Cuba, Iran, North Korea and Venezuela to beg for forgiveness.
So why do you think Russia a much wealthier country than the mentioned be so quick to give up..?
They have two options. One is to live with sanctions. That's what egomaniacs ruling the places you mentioned did. You know the impact it caused to the life and economies of these countries. They will eventually become much weaker compared to other countries that thet are not a concern anymore.
The other option is to give up on one's ego and take steps to avoid the sanctions. But people like Putin and other authoritarians who do such things are not capable of giving up their ego. Eventually it's the people who will be affected by the sanctions and it's the people who should revolt against these authoritarians. Ideally Putin should realise that the country will be fucked if he continues. Whether that happens is something for us to wait and see."
Yes all very well trying to predict what may and may not happen. So apart from slowly weakening them, they are not what you would say are very effective. Dont think that is the goal.
They have failed to change regimes in the other countries or change the regimes actions. |
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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago
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" One good thing that the increase in world trade has done is that you can fight these countries without actually going into a physical war. People like to make fun of sanctions. But they are very effective and Russia for example cannot sustain long term with all the sanctions.
Can I ask you what you base that on. I mean sanctions have hardly brought Cuba, Iran, North Korea and Venezuela to beg for forgiveness.
So why do you think Russia a much wealthier country than the mentioned be so quick to give up..?
They have two options. One is to live with sanctions. That's what egomaniacs ruling the places you mentioned did. You know the impact it caused to the life and economies of these countries. They will eventually become much weaker compared to other countries that thet are not a concern anymore.
The other option is to give up on one's ego and take steps to avoid the sanctions. But people like Putin and other authoritarians who do such things are not capable of giving up their ego. Eventually it's the people who will be affected by the sanctions and it's the people who should revolt against these authoritarians. Ideally Putin should realise that the country will be fucked if he continues. Whether that happens is something for us to wait and see.
Yes all very well trying to predict what may and may not happen. So apart from slowly weakening them, they are not what you would say are very effective. Dont think that is the goal.
They have failed to change regimes in the other countries or change the regimes actions."
Yes. But at least the countries are not a serious threat to others. If the people from those countries really cared, they are the ones who should revolt. If Western liberal democracies interfere in their internal matters, it will only become a mess like the middle east.
Sanctions are not perfect. But that's the best choice that we have. |
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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago
|
" One good thing that the increase in world trade has done is that you can fight these countries without actually going into a physical war. People like to make fun of sanctions. But they are very effective and Russia for example cannot sustain long term with all the sanctions.
Can I ask you what you base that on. I mean sanctions have hardly brought Cuba, Iran, North Korea and Venezuela to beg for forgiveness.
So why do you think Russia a much wealthier country than the mentioned be so quick to give up..?
They have two options. One is to live with sanctions. That's what egomaniacs ruling the places you mentioned did. You know the impact it caused to the life and economies of these countries. They will eventually become much weaker compared to other countries that thet are not a concern anymore.
The other option is to give up on one's ego and take steps to avoid the sanctions. But people like Putin and other authoritarians who do such things are not capable of giving up their ego. Eventually it's the people who will be affected by the sanctions and it's the people who should revolt against these authoritarians. Ideally Putin should realise that the country will be fucked if he continues. Whether that happens is something for us to wait and see.
Yes all very well trying to predict what may and may not happen. So apart from slowly weakening them, they are not what you would say are very effective. Dont think that is the goal.
They have failed to change regimes in the other countries or change the regimes actions.
Yes. But at least the countries are not a serious threat to others. If the people from those countries really cared, they are the ones who should revolt. If Western liberal democracies interfere in their internal matters, it will only become a mess like the middle east.
Sanctions are not perfect. But that's the best choice that we have."
How can you say they are not a threat to other countries. Israel, Saudi Arabia and the USA are constantly trying to nullify Iran influence in the region and stop them developing a nuclear weapon.
Take North Korea, a tiny country that has bigger countries like USA and China worried about developing nuclear missiles that might reach California.
I think the media narrative about what sanctions will achieve with Russia is not bourne out by the evidence of the past. |
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" One good thing that the increase in world trade has done is that you can fight these countries without actually going into a physical war. People like to make fun of sanctions. But they are very effective and Russia for example cannot sustain long term with all the sanctions.
Can I ask you what you base that on. I mean sanctions have hardly brought Cuba, Iran, North Korea and Venezuela to beg for forgiveness.
So why do you think Russia a much wealthier country than the mentioned be so quick to give up..?
They have two options. One is to live with sanctions. That's what egomaniacs ruling the places you mentioned did. You know the impact it caused to the life and economies of these countries. They will eventually become much weaker compared to other countries that thet are not a concern anymore.
The other option is to give up on one's ego and take steps to avoid the sanctions. But people like Putin and other authoritarians who do such things are not capable of giving up their ego. Eventually it's the people who will be affected by the sanctions and it's the people who should revolt against these authoritarians. Ideally Putin should realise that the country will be fucked if he continues. Whether that happens is something for us to wait and see.
Yes all very well trying to predict what may and may not happen. So apart from slowly weakening them, they are not what you would say are very effective. Dont think that is the goal.
They have failed to change regimes in the other countries or change the regimes actions.
Yes. But at least the countries are not a serious threat to others. If the people from those countries really cared, they are the ones who should revolt. If Western liberal democracies interfere in their internal matters, it will only become a mess like the middle east.
Sanctions are not perfect. But that's the best choice that we have."
War is the answer when a country has no military to defend itself and sanctions when they do. |
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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago
|
" One good thing that the increase in world trade has done is that you can fight these countries without actually going into a physical war. People like to make fun of sanctions. But they are very effective and Russia for example cannot sustain long term with all the sanctions.
Can I ask you what you base that on. I mean sanctions have hardly brought Cuba, Iran, North Korea and Venezuela to beg for forgiveness.
So why do you think Russia a much wealthier country than the mentioned be so quick to give up..?
They have two options. One is to live with sanctions. That's what egomaniacs ruling the places you mentioned did. You know the impact it caused to the life and economies of these countries. They will eventually become much weaker compared to other countries that thet are not a concern anymore.
The other option is to give up on one's ego and take steps to avoid the sanctions. But people like Putin and other authoritarians who do such things are not capable of giving up their ego. Eventually it's the people who will be affected by the sanctions and it's the people who should revolt against these authoritarians. Ideally Putin should realise that the country will be fucked if he continues. Whether that happens is something for us to wait and see.
Yes all very well trying to predict what may and may not happen. So apart from slowly weakening them, they are not what you would say are very effective. Dont think that is the goal.
They have failed to change regimes in the other countries or change the regimes actions.
Yes. But at least the countries are not a serious threat to others. If the people from those countries really cared, they are the ones who should revolt. If Western liberal democracies interfere in their internal matters, it will only become a mess like the middle east.
Sanctions are not perfect. But that's the best choice that we have.
How can you say they are not a threat to other countries. Israel, Saudi Arabia and the USA are constantly trying to nullify Iran influence in the region and stop them developing a nuclear weapon.
Take North Korea, a tiny country that has bigger countries like USA and China worried about developing nuclear missiles that might reach California.
I think the media narrative about what sanctions will achieve with Russia is not bourne out by the evidence of the past."
There is always fear about what every other country might do. The countries you mentioned know that they will be decimated if they touch any of the big countries. |
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