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The rationale behind ‘sanctions’
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By *oo hot OP Couple
over a year ago
North West |
I am not sure that I fully understand the rationale of targeting Russian oligarchs and banks when these people are already under the protective umbrella of Putin.
Why is the EU and the West generally not making ordinary Russians understand what is going on? The EU / U.K. and USA could easily refuse all Russian tourist visa’s with a generically worded refusal response . Ordinary people are the people who can, and will ultimately rise up against Putin - not the millionaires and billionaires who are beholden to Putin anyway. |
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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago
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"I am not sure that I fully understand the rationale of targeting Russian oligarchs and banks when these people are already under the protective umbrella of Putin.
Why is the EU and the West generally not making ordinary Russians understand what is going on? The EU / U.K. and USA could easily refuse all Russian tourist visa’s with a generically worded refusal response . Ordinary people are the people who can, and will ultimately rise up against Putin - not the millionaires and billionaires who are beholden to Putin anyway."
It is a very difficult ‘balancing act’, punish Putin but try not to punish the Russian people. I think the vast majority of Russians are against this war but at present there is nothing they can do |
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By *6travellerMan
over a year ago
Tayside, Midlands and Chester |
Pmsl - not the people will not rise against Putin. North Korea has had sanctions since the 50s. The Kim family are still in charge. Cuba had sanctions from the 60s until recently and nothing happened until Castro died. Afghanistan has sanctions as does Iran and Syria. The leaders are still there. Give me 1 example where sanctions has got the general population to rise against the leaders. |
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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago
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"Pmsl - not the people will not rise against Putin. North Korea has had sanctions since the 50s. The Kim family are still in charge. Cuba had sanctions from the 60s until recently and nothing happened until Castro died. Afghanistan has sanctions as does Iran and Syria. The leaders are still there. Give me 1 example where sanctions has got the general population to rise against the leaders."
South Africa
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"I am not sure that I fully understand the rationale of targeting Russian oligarchs and banks when these people are already under the protective umbrella of Putin."
Because these are ultimately the people who hold power and influence at the highest levels of society. The movers and shakers.
If you neutralise their cash-flow, the knock on effect is financially disastrous.
Imagine your bank couldn't trade tomorrow. How are you going to pay your bills ? Your rents ? You myriad of expensive other financial commitments ? You can't move money around either. You are in limbo. And creditors still want their money for the bills you cannot pay. Proceedings then commence.
And your daughters wedding costing 10 million cannot go ahead. And the wife's new Ferrari is on hold. And the kid's education fees cannot be paid. And on it goes.
Life becomes so miserable when you have millions/billions in the bank, and you can barely touch a penny. Life crumbles around you.
And that's when oligarchs question their loyalty. The wife is pissed off. The kids are pissed off. You are pissed off. Was it all worth it ?
So you call your oligarch chums. Who are in the same boat as you (except that's in dry dock as you cannot pay the crew).
Individually, you may not be able to do much, but collectively ? Well, Ivan "knows" a man "on the inside", and well, marble floors in palaces can be very slippy if not dried properly...
See where I am going with this ?
Putin needs to watch his back, not just from obvious enemies, but "allied" oligarchs too. And no one has eyes everywhere... |
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By *6travellerMan
over a year ago
Tayside, Midlands and Chester |
South Africa did not change for 43 years and changed because between 1987 and 1993, the National Party entered into bilateral negotiations with the African National Congress (ANC), the leading anti-apartheid political movement, for ending segregation and introducing majority rule. The world had changed and South Africa did not rise against a person but rise against an unjust system. I reiterate Sanctions have never got rid of a leader. Russians will not get rid of Putin because of sanctions. |
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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago
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"South Africa did not change for 43 years and changed because between 1987 and 1993, the National Party entered into bilateral negotiations with the African National Congress (ANC), the leading anti-apartheid political movement, for ending segregation and introducing majority rule. The world had changed and South Africa did not rise against a person but rise against an unjust system. I reiterate Sanctions have never got rid of a leader. Russians will not get rid of Putin because of sanctions. "
The unjust system was being upheld by several governments (and individuals) that were not democratically elected, sanctions helped get rid of them . I agree it probably won’t help in Russia but as stated by another poster, Putin will need to watch himself, if the enemies within thick they can get the publics support they could ‘get rid ‘ of him |
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There's a good podcast on the BBC Sounds app - The Briefing Room.
The latest one is about sanctions - in general - and how they might affect Russia.
Worth a listen. Turns out that, a lot of the time, they're ineffective.
Doesn't mean they're not worth a try, though. |
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By *ostafunMan
over a year ago
near ipswich |
"I am not sure that I fully understand the rationale of targeting Russian oligarchs and banks when these people are already under the protective umbrella of Putin.
Because these are ultimately the people who hold power and influence at the highest levels of society. The movers and shakers.
If you neutralise their cash-flow, the knock on effect is financially disastrous.
Imagine your bank couldn't trade tomorrow. How are you going to pay your bills ? Your rents ? You myriad of expensive other financial commitments ? You can't move money around either. You are in limbo. And creditors still want their money for the bills you cannot pay. Proceedings then commence.
And your daughters wedding costing 10 million cannot go ahead. And the wife's new Ferrari is on hold. And the kid's education fees cannot be paid. And on it goes.
Life becomes so miserable when you have millions/billions in the bank, and you can barely touch a penny. Life crumbles around you.
And that's when oligarchs question their loyalty. The wife is pissed off. The kids are pissed off. You are pissed off. Was it all worth it ?
So you call your oligarch chums. Who are in the same boat as you (except that's in dry dock as you cannot pay the crew).
Individually, you may not be able to do much, but collectively ? Well, Ivan "knows" a man "on the inside", and well, marble floors in palaces can be very slippy if not dried properly...
See where I am going with this ?
Putin needs to watch his back, not just from obvious enemies, but "allied" oligarchs too. And no one has eyes everywhere..."
very true im sure his botox nurse could be persuaded to get it mixed up with novichok. |
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"I am not sure that I fully understand the rationale of targeting Russian oligarchs and banks when these people are already under the protective umbrella of Putin.
Because these are ultimately the people who hold power and influence at the highest levels of society. The movers and shakers.
If you neutralise their cash-flow, the knock on effect is financially disastrous.
Imagine your bank couldn't trade tomorrow. How are you going to pay your bills ? Your rents ? You myriad of expensive other financial commitments ? You can't move money around either. You are in limbo. And creditors still want their money for the bills you cannot pay. Proceedings then commence.
And your daughters wedding costing 10 million cannot go ahead. And the wife's new Ferrari is on hold. And the kid's education fees cannot be paid. And on it goes.
Life becomes so miserable when you have millions/billions in the bank, and you can barely touch a penny. Life crumbles around you.
And that's when oligarchs question their loyalty. The wife is pissed off. The kids are pissed off. You are pissed off. Was it all worth it ?
So you call your oligarch chums. Who are in the same boat as you (except that's in dry dock as you cannot pay the crew).
Individually, you may not be able to do much, but collectively ? Well, Ivan "knows" a man "on the inside", and well, marble floors in palaces can be very slippy if not dried properly...
See where I am going with this ?
Putin needs to watch his back, not just from obvious enemies, but "allied" oligarchs too. And no one has eyes everywhere..."
I see where you're going with it - and though it's a bit fanciful, in a television script way, it's no impossible by any means.
However, it's worth considering that, "If you aim at the King, you'd better not miss."
What you're talking about would require quite some doing - and your "pretender" would lose everything, including his family, if he missed.
Part of the problem in Russia is that Putin is, basically, Don Corleone - but there's no Michael to take his place.
It's worth noting that, even now, nobody really talks about who Putin's successor will be.
You'd have to hope that's something our respective governments in the West are looking into; so that they can make a better job of dealing with whoever it turns out to be. |
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"
I see where you're going with it - and though it's a bit fanciful, in a television script way, it's no impossible by any means.
However, it's worth considering that, "If you aim at the King, you'd better not miss."
What you're talking about would require quite some doing - and your "pretender" would lose everything, including his family, if he missed.
Part of the problem in Russia is that Putin is, basically, Don Corleone - but there's no Michael to take his place.
It's worth noting that, even now, nobody really talks about who Putin's successor will be.
You'd have to hope that's something our respective governments in the West are looking into; so that they can make a better job of dealing with whoever it turns out to be."
You are right in that assessment. There is no "Michael" that seems prominent who is "waiting in the wings". And that in itself is concerning.
I've read more than one anecdotal article that says Putin has lost his mind and this is very irrational behaviour for him.
Prior to annexing Crimea, he did seem fairly rational and stable.
But no articles I had read yet (or discovered at least) have discussed what I am wondering.
Have there been 1 or more bungled attempts on his life since Crimea, which has ratcheted up his paranoia and driven him over the edge ?
And if they have, I can only assume they have come from within Russia, because if they came from outside, he'd be using that and waving it around as political capital.
I cannot think of any many other reasons why a fairly stable leader of a superpower would suddenly go quite so loopy. (Possibly medical ? Early onset mental issues ?) |
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By *eavenNhellCouple
over a year ago
carrbrook stalybridge |
"
I see where you're going with it - and though it's a bit fanciful, in a television script way, it's no impossible by any means.
However, it's worth considering that, "If you aim at the King, you'd better not miss."
What you're talking about would require quite some doing - and your "pretender" would lose everything, including his family, if he missed.
Part of the problem in Russia is that Putin is, basically, Don Corleone - but there's no Michael to take his place.
It's worth noting that, even now, nobody really talks about who Putin's successor will be.
You'd have to hope that's something our respective governments in the West are looking into; so that they can make a better job of dealing with whoever it turns out to be.
You are right in that assessment. There is no "Michael" that seems prominent who is "waiting in the wings". And that in itself is concerning.
I've read more than one anecdotal article that says Putin has lost his mind and this is very irrational behaviour for him.
Prior to annexing Crimea, he did seem fairly rational and stable.
But no articles I had read yet (or discovered at least) have discussed what I am wondering.
Have there been 1 or more bungled attempts on his life since Crimea, which has ratcheted up his paranoia and driven him over the edge ?
And if they have, I can only assume they have come from within Russia, because if they came from outside, he'd be using that and waving it around as political capital.
I cannot think of any many other reasons why a fairly stable leader of a superpower would suddenly go quite so loopy. (Possibly medical ? Early onset mental issues ?)"
he hasnt gone loopy he has played a very long game with the west made them finacialy and materialy dependant on his countrys goods and services first Crimea now ukrain this is the end game of a long series of pre planned moves to expand russias influance by a very clever man the west has been out foxed and outplayed andcis powerless to do anything beyond stand on the sidelines shouting and waving |
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By *ovebjsMan
over a year ago
Bristol |
"
I see where you're going with it - and though it's a bit fanciful, in a television script way, it's no impossible by any means.
However, it's worth considering that, "If you aim at the King, you'd better not miss."
What you're talking about would require quite some doing - and your "pretender" would lose everything, including his family, if he missed.
Part of the problem in Russia is that Putin is, basically, Don Corleone - but there's no Michael to take his place.
It's worth noting that, even now, nobody really talks about who Putin's successor will be.
You'd have to hope that's something our respective governments in the West are looking into; so that they can make a better job of dealing with whoever it turns out to be.
You are right in that assessment. There is no "Michael" that seems prominent who is "waiting in the wings". And that in itself is concerning.
I've read more than one anecdotal article that says Putin has lost his mind and this is very irrational behaviour for him.
Prior to annexing Crimea, he did seem fairly rational and stable.
But no articles I had read yet (or discovered at least) have discussed what I am wondering.
Have there been 1 or more bungled attempts on his life since Crimea, which has ratcheted up his paranoia and driven him over the edge ?
And if they have, I can only assume they have come from within Russia, because if they came from outside, he'd be using that and waving it around as political capital.
I cannot think of any many other reasons why a fairly stable leader of a superpower would suddenly go quite so loopy. (Possibly medical ? Early onset mental issues ?)he hasnt gone loopy he has played a very long game with the west made them finacialy and materialy dependant on his countrys goods and services first Crimea now ukrain this is the end game of a long series of pre planned moves to expand russias influance by a very clever man the west has been out foxed and outplayed andcis powerless to do anything beyond stand on the sidelines shouting and waving "
Not loopy he’s a psychopath and kleptomaniac and has no empathy with anyone not even his own people.
It’s all about an angry old white man who just wants to be the big cheese.
I do think he has sentenced his advisers and their families to a lifetime of ever lookig over their shoulders as they all stood up in that meeting and agreed with him 
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By *abioMan
over a year ago
Newcastle and Gateshead |
"There's a good podcast on the BBC Sounds app - The Briefing Room.
The latest one is about sanctions - in general - and how they might affect Russia.
Worth a listen. Turns out that, a lot of the time, they're ineffective.
Doesn't mean they're not worth a try, though."
The general answer is pressure…
you start squeezing the rich who have the most power and make it awkward for them to live their lives… and that pressure starts flowing down…
So travel bans, closing of airspace, freezing of assets, ect ect..
They have a few tricks up their sleeve yet….. SWIFT is one, an EU wide airspace ban would be another, get nato to declare a no fly zone over Ukraine at the behest of the Ukrainian government, you can basically jam signals to most of the country…. |
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By *ovebjsMan
over a year ago
Bristol |
"There's a good podcast on the BBC Sounds app - The Briefing Room.
The latest one is about sanctions - in general - and how they might affect Russia.
Worth a listen. Turns out that, a lot of the time, they're ineffective.
Doesn't mean they're not worth a try, though.
The general answer is pressure…
you start squeezing the rich who have the most power and make it awkward for them to live their lives… and that pressure starts flowing down…
So travel bans, closing of airspace, freezing of assets, ect ect..
They have a few tricks up their sleeve yet….. SWIFT is one, an EU wide airspace ban would be another, get nato to declare a no fly zone over Ukraine at the behest of the Ukrainian government, you can basically jam signals to most of the country…. "
But surely that’s the problem at the moment until he aggresses against a nato member they cannot really act.
I do believe it’s only a matter of time though because he is so focused on rebuilding the Soviet Union.
Even if he stopped at Ukraine the damage has been done and will not be undone  |
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"Also he has already threatened Finland and Sweden if they get involved "
Well, obviously, it's for the Finns and the Swedes to decide; but a fast track to joining NATO within the next few weeks might not be a bad idea - especially with Russian forces concentrated on Ukraine right now.
After all, how much worse could it be if they did? |
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"There's a good podcast on the BBC Sounds app - The Briefing Room.
The latest one is about sanctions - in general - and how they might affect Russia.
Worth a listen. Turns out that, a lot of the time, they're ineffective.
Doesn't mean they're not worth a try, though.
The general answer is pressure…
you start squeezing the rich who have the most power and make it awkward for them to live their lives… and that pressure starts flowing down…
So travel bans, closing of airspace, freezing of assets, ect ect..
They have a few tricks up their sleeve yet….. SWIFT is one, an EU wide airspace ban would be another, get nato to declare a no fly zone over Ukraine at the behest of the Ukrainian government, you can basically jam signals to most of the country…. "
The no-fly zone isn't going to happen. The rest, fair enough.
However, the rest of it didn't unseat Castro - even after the collapse of the Soviet Union; a catastrophe for the Cuban economy.
Like I said, though - give it a go, just in case it does work. |
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By *abioMan
over a year ago
Newcastle and Gateshead |
"Also he has already threatened Finland and Sweden if they get involved "
That a huge mistake.. it’s now in their best interest to join in a heartbeat.. and that would be fast tracked |
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"Also he has already threatened Finland and Sweden if they get involved
That a huge mistake.. it’s now in their best interest to join in a heartbeat.. and that would be fast tracked "
Coincidence, I know - but I just started a thread on that. |
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By *ovebjsMan
over a year ago
Bristol |
"Also he has already threatened Finland and Sweden if they get involved
That a huge mistake.. it’s now in their best interest to join in a heartbeat.. and that would be fast tracked
Coincidence, I know - but I just started a thread on that."
Yup just commented |
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