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By *ealthy_and_Hung OP Man
over a year ago
Princes Risborough, Luasanne, Alderney |
more casualties announced today in the catalouge of the shambolic failure of tory privatisation. the Southeastern rail franchise is the latest collapse of the tory party's failed idealogical experiment of 'selling the family silver'. the total cost to the tax payer is yet to be disclosed ... probably by force through the courts if this governments track record for transparency is anything to go by.  |
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By *ercuryMan
over a year ago
Grantham |
This was announced last month, with the DfT taking over aa "operator of last resort" as from today.
The DfT stripped Govia of their franchise, after serious fraud issues were uncovered. This involved mis-use of tax payers money. |
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By *abioMan
over a year ago
Newcastle and Gateshead |
Saying that…. Where the rail network is privatised, in effect it actually isn’t…..
What basically has happened since the beginning of the pandemic is that the terms have basically
Before the pandemic most companies paid the government for the right to operate the trains and basically kept all the revenue,
but because revenue basically tanked and most companies would have basically just given the franchise’s back leaving the government as the operator of last resort (like they are with the east coast franchise) what is happening now is that the government are basically paying the companies a set amount to run the franchise based on the revenue coming in…..
It’s basically nationalisation in all but name…. |
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By *ealthy_and_Hung OP Man
over a year ago
Princes Risborough, Luasanne, Alderney |
"This was announced last month, with the DfT taking over aa "operator of last resort" as from today.
The DfT stripped Govia of their franchise, after serious fraud issues were uncovered. This involved mis-use of tax payers money. "
it's being reported today because of new news ... hope this helps  |
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By *ealthy_and_Hung OP Man
over a year ago
Princes Risborough, Luasanne, Alderney |
"Privatisation of rail, Royal Mail was due to the EU s ' no state aid' rules"
i have never heard so much utter purile nonsense in my life ... apart from the last time somebody attempted to pass that piece of juvenille nonsense off in a previous thread. |
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By *ercuryMan
over a year ago
Grantham |
Its entirely possible to have a state run railway in the EU but with conditions.
Private operators must be given access to certain parts of the system, both with freight and passenger. This is causing problems in France, where their unions are against this principle. |
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By *drianukMan
over a year ago
Spain, Lancs |
"Privatisation of rail, Royal Mail was due to the EU s ' no state aid' rules
i have never heard so much utter purile nonsense in my life ... apart from the last time somebody attempted to pass that piece of juvenille nonsense off in a previous thread. "
In what sense was I wrong? The EU did forbid state aid, yes?
Try to reply without abuse |
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"Privatisation of rail, Royal Mail was due to the EU s ' no state aid' rules
i have never heard so much utter purile nonsense in my life ... apart from the last time somebody attempted to pass that piece of juvenille nonsense off in a previous thread.
In what sense was I wrong? The EU did forbid state aid, yes?
Try to reply without abuse"
Electricite de France is funded by the French state and operates in the UK benefiting the French EDF customer with lower energy prices. |
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By *drianukMan
over a year ago
Spain, Lancs |
"Privatisation of rail, Royal Mail was due to the EU s ' no state aid' rules
i have never heard so much utter purile nonsense in my life ... apart from the last time somebody attempted to pass that piece of juvenille nonsense off in a previous thread.
In what sense was I wrong? The EU did forbid state aid, yes?
Try to reply without abuse
Electricite de France is funded by the French state and operates in the UK benefiting the French EDF customer with lower energy prices. "
The key part to understand is that the EU forbids state aid.
I think all/most of the UK nationalised industries subsequently privatised were loss making and, as a result, required state aid.
Thus they couldn't continue to be nationalised industries while we were in the EU
Possibly EDF doesn't require subsidies...but the French are good at disguising state aid.
Brexit now gives us the freedom to decide whether we want to subsidise industry |
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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago
|
"Privatisation of rail, Royal Mail was due to the EU s ' no state aid' rules
i have never heard so much utter purile nonsense in my life ... apart from the last time somebody attempted to pass that piece of juvenille nonsense off in a previous thread.
In what sense was I wrong? The EU did forbid state aid, yes?
Try to reply without abuse
Electricite de France is funded by the French state and operates in the UK benefiting the French EDF customer with lower energy prices.
The key part to understand is that the EU forbids state aid.
I think all/most of the UK nationalised industries subsequently privatised were loss making and, as a result, required state aid.
Thus they couldn't continue to be nationalised industries while we were in the EU
Possibly EDF doesn't require subsidies...but the French are good at disguising state aid.
Brexit now gives us the freedom to decide whether we want to subsidise industry"
Wrong. The EU does not forbid state aid. It has strict rules about its application in order to create a level playing field across the bloc and those rules apply equally to all member states. The WTO also has rules governing the application of state aid. |
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By *eroy1000Man
over a year ago
milton keynes |
"Privatisation of rail, Royal Mail was due to the EU s ' no state aid' rules
i have never heard so much utter purile nonsense in my life ... apart from the last time somebody attempted to pass that piece of juvenille nonsense off in a previous thread.
In what sense was I wrong? The EU did forbid state aid, yes?
Try to reply without abuse
Electricite de France is funded by the French state and operates in the UK benefiting the French EDF customer with lower energy prices.
The key part to understand is that the EU forbids state aid.
I think all/most of the UK nationalised industries subsequently privatised were loss making and, as a result, required state aid.
Thus they couldn't continue to be nationalised industries while we were in the EU
Possibly EDF doesn't require subsidies...but the French are good at disguising state aid.
Brexit now gives us the freedom to decide whether we want to subsidise industry"
I may be misunderstanding the specifics of what is state aid but I have just watched the Blair, Brown documentary and it reminded me of the government intervention in RBS and others during the financial crisis. Would that be considered state aid |
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By *drianukMan
over a year ago
Spain, Lancs |
"Privatisation of rail, Royal Mail was due to the EU s ' no state aid' rules
i have never heard so much utter purile nonsense in my life ... apart from the last time somebody attempted to pass that piece of juvenille nonsense off in a previous thread.
In what sense was I wrong? The EU did forbid state aid, yes?
Try to reply without abuse
Electricite de France is funded by the French state and operates in the UK benefiting the French EDF customer with lower energy prices.
The key part to understand is that the EU forbids state aid.
I think all/most of the UK nationalised industries subsequently privatised were loss making and, as a result, required state aid.
Thus they couldn't continue to be nationalised industries while we were in the EU
Possibly EDF doesn't require subsidies...but the French are good at disguising state aid.
Brexit now gives us the freedom to decide whether we want to subsidise industry
Wrong. The EU does not forbid state aid. It has strict rules about its application in order to create a level playing field across the bloc and those rules apply equally to all member states. The WTO also has rules governing the application of state aid. "
The EU does forbid state aid. It is only allowed in certain circumstances such as allowing subsidies on bus routes through areas of many pensioners etc
It has been allowed for Peugeot, Citroen and Renault on the basis that it was one-off restructuring money
The default position is no state aid.
It's why Tony Benn, Peter Shore, Michael Foot, Hugh Gaitskell, Eric Heffer, Ian Mikardo, Barbara Castle etc etc opposed the EU: they knew that nationalisation had been made pointless...and, where there were losses, illegal...by the EU.
Brexit has restored the option |
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By *drianukMan
over a year ago
Spain, Lancs |
"Privatisation of rail, Royal Mail was due to the EU s ' no state aid' rules
i have never heard so much utter purile nonsense in my life ... apart from the last time somebody attempted to pass that piece of juvenille nonsense off in a previous thread.
In what sense was I wrong? The EU did forbid state aid, yes?
Try to reply without abuse
Electricite de France is funded by the French state and operates in the UK benefiting the French EDF customer with lower energy prices.
The key part to understand is that the EU forbids state aid.
I think all/most of the UK nationalised industries subsequently privatised were loss making and, as a result, required state aid.
Thus they couldn't continue to be nationalised industries while we were in the EU
Possibly EDF doesn't require subsidies...but the French are good at disguising state aid.
Brexit now gives us the freedom to decide whether we want to subsidise industry
I may be misunderstanding the specifics of what is state aid but I have just watched the Blair, Brown documentary and it reminded me of the government intervention in RBS and others during the financial crisis. Would that be considered state aid"
That's a really interesting one and I don't know the answer. I suspect the answer is yes, it's state aid so that Blair and Brown's moneyprinting would have had to be agreed with the European Central Bank...after all, so many governments were printing massive amounts of money.
But I really don't know for sure |
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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago
|
"Privatisation of rail, Royal Mail was due to the EU s ' no state aid' rules
i have never heard so much utter purile nonsense in my life ... apart from the last time somebody attempted to pass that piece of juvenille nonsense off in a previous thread.
In what sense was I wrong? The EU did forbid state aid, yes?
Try to reply without abuse
Electricite de France is funded by the French state and operates in the UK benefiting the French EDF customer with lower energy prices.
The key part to understand is that the EU forbids state aid.
I think all/most of the UK nationalised industries subsequently privatised were loss making and, as a result, required state aid.
Thus they couldn't continue to be nationalised industries while we were in the EU
Possibly EDF doesn't require subsidies...but the French are good at disguising state aid.
Brexit now gives us the freedom to decide whether we want to subsidise industry
Wrong. The EU does not forbid state aid. It has strict rules about its application in order to create a level playing field across the bloc and those rules apply equally to all member states. The WTO also has rules governing the application of state aid.
The EU does forbid state aid. It is only allowed in certain circumstances such as allowing subsidies on bus routes through areas of many pensioners etc
It has been allowed for Peugeot, Citroen and Renault on the basis that it was one-off restructuring money
The default position is no state aid.
It's why Tony Benn, Peter Shore, Michael Foot, Hugh Gaitskell, Eric Heffer, Ian Mikardo, Barbara Castle etc etc opposed the EU: they knew that nationalisation had been made pointless...and, where there were losses, illegal...by the EU.
Brexit has restored the option"
So it doesn’t forbid state aid then?
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By *drianukMan
over a year ago
Spain, Lancs |
"Privatisation of rail, Royal Mail was due to the EU s ' no state aid' rules
i have never heard so much utter purile nonsense in my life ... apart from the last time somebody attempted to pass that piece of juvenille nonsense off in a previous thread.
In what sense was I wrong? The EU did forbid state aid, yes?
Try to reply without abuse
Electricite de France is funded by the French state and operates in the UK benefiting the French EDF customer with lower energy prices.
The key part to understand is that the EU forbids state aid.
I think all/most of the UK nationalised industries subsequently privatised were loss making and, as a result, required state aid.
Thus they couldn't continue to be nationalised industries while we were in the EU
Possibly EDF doesn't require subsidies...but the French are good at disguising state aid.
Brexit now gives us the freedom to decide whether we want to subsidise industry
Wrong. The EU does not forbid state aid. It has strict rules about its application in order to create a level playing field across the bloc and those rules apply equally to all member states. The WTO also has rules governing the application of state aid.
The EU does forbid state aid. It is only allowed in certain circumstances such as allowing subsidies on bus routes through areas of many pensioners etc
It has been allowed for Peugeot, Citroen and Renault on the basis that it was one-off restructuring money
The default position is no state aid.
It's why Tony Benn, Peter Shore, Michael Foot, Hugh Gaitskell, Eric Heffer, Ian Mikardo, Barbara Castle etc etc opposed the EU: they knew that nationalisation had been made pointless...and, where there were losses, illegal...by the EU.
Brexit has restored the option
So it doesn’t forbid state aid then?
"
Yes it does. It allows it only in very limited circumstances and after specific permission has been sought from the EU.
The default position is no state aid. |
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By *abioMan
over a year ago
Newcastle and Gateshead |
State aid is allowed…. What state aid is not allowed to do is undercut market prices….
So for example, alitialia, got state aid because they are deemed to be an essential business in the interest of the national benefit, so they were allowed to help the running of it as a ongoing concern, but they were not allowed to use the money as prices to undercut private business
Funny enough the Italian government pulled the plug on the state funding… they went under, and the government formed a new state airline which started running as of Friday |
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By *drianukMan
over a year ago
Spain, Lancs |
"State aid is allowed…. What state aid is not allowed to do is undercut market prices….
So for example, alitialia, got state aid because they are deemed to be an essential business in the interest of the national benefit, so they were allowed to help the running of it as a ongoing concern, but they were not allowed to use the money as prices to undercut private business
Funny enough the Italian government pulled the plug on the state funding… they went under, and the government formed a new state airline which started running as of Friday "
The default position is that state aid is not allowed.
It's only allowed on a time-limited basis and with specific permission from the EU.
You can't run a nationalised industry on that basis, which is why Labour, Tory, Lib Dem etc have supported privatisation.
It is good news that Brexit now allows subsidy...although I personally would vote against subsidies and nationalisation.
What you have to remember is that state subsidies intrinsically unbalance competition...and that is why the EU only allows them in very limited circumstances |
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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago
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"Privatisation of rail, Royal Mail was due to the EU s ' no state aid' rules
i have never heard so much utter purile nonsense in my life ... apart from the last time somebody attempted to pass that piece of juvenille nonsense off in a previous thread.
In what sense was I wrong? The EU did forbid state aid, yes?
Try to reply without abuse
Electricite de France is funded by the French state and operates in the UK benefiting the French EDF customer with lower energy prices.
The key part to understand is that the EU forbids state aid.
I think all/most of the UK nationalised industries subsequently privatised were loss making and, as a result, required state aid.
Thus they couldn't continue to be nationalised industries while we were in the EU
Possibly EDF doesn't require subsidies...but the French are good at disguising state aid.
Brexit now gives us the freedom to decide whether we want to subsidise industry
Wrong. The EU does not forbid state aid. It has strict rules about its application in order to create a level playing field across the bloc and those rules apply equally to all member states. The WTO also has rules governing the application of state aid.
The EU does forbid state aid. It is only allowed in certain circumstances such as allowing subsidies on bus routes through areas of many pensioners etc
It has been allowed for Peugeot, Citroen and Renault on the basis that it was one-off restructuring money
The default position is no state aid.
It's why Tony Benn, Peter Shore, Michael Foot, Hugh Gaitskell, Eric Heffer, Ian Mikardo, Barbara Castle etc etc opposed the EU: they knew that nationalisation had been made pointless...and, where there were losses, illegal...by the EU.
Brexit has restored the option
So it doesn’t forbid state aid then?
Yes it does. It allows it only in very limited circumstances and after specific permission has been sought from the EU.
The default position is no state aid."
Either it forbids it or it doesn’t.
My post stated it has strict rules.
The idea that a free market hawk like Rishi Sunak and all the other market fetishists within the Conservative party would have an iota of enthusiasm for nationalisation is for the birds. |
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By *ovebjsMan
over a year ago
Bristol |
"State aid is allowed…. What state aid is not allowed to do is undercut market prices….
So for example, alitialia, got state aid because they are deemed to be an essential business in the interest of the national benefit, so they were allowed to help the running of it as a ongoing concern, but they were not allowed to use the money as prices to undercut private business
Funny enough the Italian government pulled the plug on the state funding… they went under, and the government formed a new state airline which started running as of Friday
The default position is that state aid is not allowed.
It's only allowed on a time-limited basis and with specific permission from the EU.
You can't run a nationalised industry on that basis, which is why Labour, Tory, Lib Dem etc have supported privatisation.
It is good news that Brexit now allows subsidy...although I personally would vote against subsidies and nationalisation.
What you have to remember is that state subsidies intrinsically unbalance competition...and that is why the EU only allows them in very limited circumstances"
Yes because they want to oversee everything
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