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Thatcher - There is no society
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By (user no longer on site) OP
over a year ago
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Thatchers statement in full -
“I think we have been through a period when too many people have been given to understand that when they have a problem it is government’s job to cope with it. ‘I have a problem, I’ll get a grant. I’m homeless, the government must house me.’ They are casting their problems on society. And, you know, there is no such thing as society. There are individual men and women and there are families. And no governments can do anything except through people, and people must look to themselves first. It is our duty to look after ourselves and then, also, to look after our neighbours. People have got their entitlements too much in mind, without the obligations. There is no such thing as an entitlement, unless someone has first met an obligation.”
This is a continuation of something in the virus forum but figured it's best here.
That says to me that society only exist if individuals so choose for society to exist.
Discuss.. |
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By (user no longer on site) OP
over a year ago
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"I can see how this one is going to go 
"
It's a good discussion which Lionel and myself obviously disagree on but maybe others will let us know how they see it |
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By *atEvolutionCouple
over a year ago
atlantisEVOLUTION. Stoke FREE ENTRANCE ALL WEEKEND |
My truthful answer?
Thatcher was a &*&^
Community does of course exist. Though not in as wide-a-scale as most would think.
While the Pandemic has brought many things together, it has also driven many things apart.
The same with Social Media.
Here on the forums we see the constant daily rancour of standing on one side or the other. Little space given for discussing the grey that can be forged into the black and the white or mutual advantage.
Wealth creation - have's and have-nots.
Maybe - GB has always been this way - it just took a Pandemic to shine a fooking big light on it.
If polarisation is the main indicator of our condition then it's much worse than we ever imagined.
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By *ackal1Couple
over a year ago
Manchester |
In a way she is right as everything is an illusion. We create an imaginary country border and general order to make ourselves feel comfortable.
An interesting read is the writings of Yuvall Noah Harari the Israeli commentator.
He’s thrown the whole concept of society on its head. After you read it you will realise how much we just bullshit ourselves about day to day stuff to keep order.
I personally think Thatcher was right but also very wrong. Whilst we all need to help ourselves we don’t all have the same tools such as education opportunity, connections, nepotism etc etc .
So until all are in line at the start then the less advantaged deserve to be helped.
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By *ackal1Couple
over a year ago
Manchester |
"My truthful answer?
Thatcher was a &*&^
Community does of course exist. Though not in as wide-a-scale as most would think.
While the Pandemic has brought many things together, it has also driven many things apart.
The same with Social Media.
Here on the forums we see the constant daily rancour of standing on one side or the other. Little space given for discussing the grey that can be forged into the black and the white or mutual advantage.
Wealth creation - have's and have-nots.
Maybe - GB has always been this way - it just took a Pandemic to shine a fooking big light on it.
If polarisation is the main indicator of our condition then it's much worse than we ever imagined.
"
Good post Cat  |
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By *atEvolutionCouple
over a year ago
atlantisEVOLUTION. Stoke FREE ENTRANCE ALL WEEKEND |
"My truthful answer?
Thatcher was a &*&^
Community does of course exist. Though not in as wide-a-scale as most would think.
While the Pandemic has brought many things together, it has also driven many things apart.
The same with Social Media.
Here on the forums we see the constant daily rancour of standing on one side or the other. Little space given for discussing the grey that can be forged into the black and the white or mutual advantage.
Wealth creation - have's and have-nots.
Maybe - GB has always been this way - it just took a Pandemic to shine a fooking big light on it.
If polarisation is the main indicator of our condition then it's much worse than we ever imagined.
Good post Cat "
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By *atEvolutionCouple
over a year ago
atlantisEVOLUTION. Stoke FREE ENTRANCE ALL WEEKEND |
"
In a way she is right as everything is an illusion. We create an imaginary country border and general order to make ourselves feel comfortable.
An interesting read is the writings of Yuvall Noah Harari the Israeli commentator.
He’s thrown the whole concept of society on its head. After you read it you will realise how much we just bullshit ourselves about day to day stuff to keep order.
I personally think Thatcher was right but also very wrong. Whilst we all need to help ourselves we don’t all have the same tools such as education opportunity, connections, nepotism etc etc .
So until all are in line at the start then the less advantaged deserve to be helped.
"
Too |
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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago
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Actually, if you look into what she said there she does make a very valid point about entitlement and obligation.
Governement only has the means to provide benefits and services if we all meet our obligations in respect of our taxes.
If nobody were to pay their taxes, there would be no money to provide benefits to those in need - and therefore, if no benefits are available it follows that nobody would be entitled to them.
After all you can't be entitled to something that doesn't exist |
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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago
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"Community does of course exist. Though not in as wide-a-scale as most would think."
You see, straight away you are twisting things to suit your narative.
She didn't say community didn't exist, nor does this thread make that claim.
You have translated Society to mean the same as community, which, technically, it doesn't.
I just looked up the dictionary definition of Society
1. the aggregate of people living together in a more or less ordered community.
2. an organization or club formed for a particular purpose or activity. |
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By (user no longer on site) OP
over a year ago
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Thanks to all so far. Some very good points and views on this.
@Jackal, I'll be checking out that author. Seems I'll enjoy that from what you've said already.
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"Actually, if you look into what she said there she does make a very valid point about entitlement and obligation.
Governement only has the means to provide benefits and services if we all meet our obligations in respect of our taxes.
If nobody were to pay their taxes, there would be no money to provide benefits to those in need - and therefore, if no benefits are available it follows that nobody would be entitled to them.
After all you can't be entitled to something that doesn't exist"
So a child should have no access to healthcare? |
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By (user no longer on site) OP
over a year ago
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"Actually, if you look into what she said there she does make a very valid point about entitlement and obligation.
Governement only has the means to provide benefits and services if we all meet our obligations in respect of our taxes.
If nobody were to pay their taxes, there would be no money to provide benefits to those in need - and therefore, if no benefits are available it follows that nobody would be entitled to them.
After all you can't be entitled to something that doesn't exist
So a child should have no access to healthcare?"
Where has anyone said that? Please stick to what is said instead of the usual  |
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Thatcher believed in individualism
That was the whole ethos or toryism
Buy your own house,buy shares.look after no 1.
She despised any sort of collectivism
So her stuff about your neighbor'looking after you is clearly contradictory
People shoudmt rely on the state..they should look after themselves..which ties in.fully with her rolling back the state speech.
Thus there is mo such thing as society. |
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"Actually, if you look into what she said there she does make a very valid point about entitlement and obligation.
Governement only has the means to provide benefits and services if we all meet our obligations in respect of our taxes.
If nobody were to pay their taxes, there would be no money to provide benefits to those in need - and therefore, if no benefits are available it follows that nobody would be entitled to them.
After all you can't be entitled to something that doesn't exist
So a child should have no access to healthcare?
Where has anyone said that? Please stick to what is said instead of the usual "
Would you care to explain how children pay taxes
? |
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"Actually, if you look into what she said there she does make a very valid point about entitlement and obligation.
Governement only has the means to provide benefits and services if we all meet our obligations in respect of our taxes.
If nobody were to pay their taxes, there would be no money to provide benefits to those in need - and therefore, if no benefits are available it follows that nobody would be entitled to them.
After all you can't be entitled to something that doesn't exist
So a child should have no access to healthcare?"
And precisely what does that remark have to do with the post you quoted? |
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By *ercuryMan
over a year ago
Grantham |
"Thatcher believed in individualism
That was the whole ethos or toryism
Buy your own house,buy shares.look after no 1.
She despised any sort of collectivism
So her stuff about your neighbor'looking after you is clearly contradictory
People shoudmt rely on the state..they should look after themselves..which ties in.fully with her rolling back the state speech.
Thus there is mo such thing as society."
Is there anything wrong with individual ambition?
Or an individual desire not to be a burden on the state? |
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By (user no longer on site) OP
over a year ago
|
"Actually, if you look into what she said there she does make a very valid point about entitlement and obligation.
Governement only has the means to provide benefits and services if we all meet our obligations in respect of our taxes.
If nobody were to pay their taxes, there would be no money to provide benefits to those in need - and therefore, if no benefits are available it follows that nobody would be entitled to them.
After all you can't be entitled to something that doesn't exist
So a child should have no access to healthcare?
Where has anyone said that? Please stick to what is said instead of the usual
Would you care to explain how children pay taxes
?"
We're on an adult website so when someone says 'we all' they're likely to be speaking of adults |
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"Thatcher believed in individualism
That was the whole ethos or toryism
Buy your own house,buy shares.look after no 1.
She despised any sort of collectivism
So her stuff about your neighbor'looking after you is clearly contradictory
People shoudmt rely on the state..they should look after themselves..which ties in.fully with her rolling back the state speech.
Thus there is mo such thing as society.
Is there anything wrong with individual ambition?
Or an individual desire not to be a burden on the state? "
Personally expecting the state to help me out if I lost my job.
And was homeless
After spending years paying in through ni..wouldnt constitute a "burden ' |
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"Actually, if you look into what she said there she does make a very valid point about entitlement and obligation.
Governement only has the means to provide benefits and services if we all meet our obligations in respect of our taxes.
If nobody were to pay their taxes, there would be no money to provide benefits to those in need - and therefore, if no benefits are available it follows that nobody would be entitled to them.
After all you can't be entitled to something that doesn't exist
So a child should have no access to healthcare?
Where has anyone said that? Please stick to what is said instead of the usual
Would you care to explain how children pay taxes
?
We're on an adult website so when someone says 'we all' they're likely to be speaking of adults"
So you can only benefit from the system if you have contributed? |
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By (user no longer on site) OP
over a year ago
|
"Actually, if you look into what she said there she does make a very valid point about entitlement and obligation.
Governement only has the means to provide benefits and services if we all meet our obligations in respect of our taxes.
If nobody were to pay their taxes, there would be no money to provide benefits to those in need - and therefore, if no benefits are available it follows that nobody would be entitled to them.
After all you can't be entitled to something that doesn't exist
So a child should have no access to healthcare?
Where has anyone said that? Please stick to what is said instead of the usual
Would you care to explain how children pay taxes
?
We're on an adult website so when someone says 'we all' they're likely to be speaking of adults
So you can only benefit from the system if you have contributed?"
No Lionel, everyone can benefit as a last resort.
Children are naturally exempt from paying taxes. |
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By *ercuryMan
over a year ago
Grantham |
"Thatcher believed in individualism
That was the whole ethos or toryism
Buy your own house,buy shares.look after no 1.
She despised any sort of collectivism
So her stuff about your neighbor'looking after you is clearly contradictory
People shoudmt rely on the state..they should look after themselves..which ties in.fully with her rolling back the state speech.
Thus there is mo such thing as society.
Is there anything wrong with individual ambition?
Or an individual desire not to be a burden on the state?
Personally expecting the state to help me out if I lost my job.
And was homeless
After spending years paying in through ni..wouldnt constitute a "burden '"
Thats the state's responsibility to help those in need. Unforeseen circumstances happen to anyone and everyone, and that safety net is invaluable.
But surely that comes as a responsibilty for society to realise that its not a bottomless pit of money, and we must all do our part in its upkeep. |
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"Actually, if you look into what she said there she does make a very valid point about entitlement and obligation.
Governement only has the means to provide benefits and services if we all meet our obligations in respect of our taxes.
If nobody were to pay their taxes, there would be no money to provide benefits to those in need - and therefore, if no benefits are available it follows that nobody would be entitled to them.
After all you can't be entitled to something that doesn't exist
So a child should have no access to healthcare?
Where has anyone said that? Please stick to what is said instead of the usual
Would you care to explain how children pay taxes
?
We're on an adult website so when someone says 'we all' they're likely to be speaking of adults
So you can only benefit from the system if you have contributed?
No Lionel, everyone can benefit as a last resort.
Children are naturally exempt from paying taxes. "
If suggest you read the post again which began
Of we all meet our obligations
|
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By *atEvolutionCouple
over a year ago
atlantisEVOLUTION. Stoke FREE ENTRANCE ALL WEEKEND |
"
Personally expecting the state to help me out if I lost my job.
And was homeless
After spending years paying in through ni..wouldnt constitute a "burden '
Thats the state's responsibility to help those in need. Unforeseen circumstances happen to anyone and everyone, and that safety net is invaluable.
But surely that comes as a responsibilty for society to realise that its not a bottomless pit of money, and we must all do our part in its upkeep. "
Absolutely. |
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By (user no longer on site) OP
over a year ago
|
"Actually, if you look into what she said there she does make a very valid point about entitlement and obligation.
Governement only has the means to provide benefits and services if we all meet our obligations in respect of our taxes.
If nobody were to pay their taxes, there would be no money to provide benefits to those in need - and therefore, if no benefits are available it follows that nobody would be entitled to them.
After all you can't be entitled to something that doesn't exist
So a child should have no access to healthcare?
Where has anyone said that? Please stick to what is said instead of the usual
Would you care to explain how children pay taxes
?
We're on an adult website so when someone says 'we all' they're likely to be speaking of adults
So you can only benefit from the system if you have contributed?
No Lionel, everyone can benefit as a last resort.
Children are naturally exempt from paying taxes.
If suggest you read the post again which began
Of we all meet our obligations
"
Did you miss the part where I said that on an adult website 'we all' likely refers to adults |
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By *ackal1Couple
over a year ago
Manchester |
"Thanks to all so far. Some very good points and views on this.
@Jackal, I'll be checking out that author. Seems I'll enjoy that from what you've said already.
"
First heard him on Jeremy vine radio 2. I was late for a meeting as I was fascinated. Once you listen or read his views you can’t disagree and question society as it really is, not what you think or believe it is.
For example there’s a border between two countries over there because we say there is and then put a fence up to confirm it. The fence is to reaffirm our belief because in reality there is no difference from one side of the fence to the other only our beliefs that there is. It gives us order.
Btw the book looks like a hardback comic so you have been warned. |
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"Actually, if you look into what she said there she does make a very valid point about entitlement and obligation.
Governement only has the means to provide benefits and services if we all meet our obligations in respect of our taxes.
If nobody were to pay their taxes, there would be no money to provide benefits to those in need - and therefore, if no benefits are available it follows that nobody would be entitled to them.
After all you can't be entitled to something that doesn't exist
So a child should have no access to healthcare?
Where has anyone said that? Please stick to what is said instead of the usual
Would you care to explain how children pay taxes
?
We're on an adult website so when someone says 'we all' they're likely to be speaking of adults
So you can only benefit from the system if you have contributed?
No Lionel, everyone can benefit as a last resort.
Children are naturally exempt from paying taxes.
If suggest you read the post again which began
Of we all meet our obligations
Did you miss the part where I said that on an adult website 'we all' likely refers to adults"
I'm not sure
I did miss the bit where I said she meant there is no such thing as society and you your pal accused me of deliberately misquoting her and yet someone has said the sane thing as me and you have said nada.
Consistency folks. |
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By (user no longer on site) OP
over a year ago
|
"Actually, if you look into what she said there she does make a very valid point about entitlement and obligation.
Governement only has the means to provide benefits and services if we all meet our obligations in respect of our taxes.
If nobody were to pay their taxes, there would be no money to provide benefits to those in need - and therefore, if no benefits are available it follows that nobody would be entitled to them.
After all you can't be entitled to something that doesn't exist
So a child should have no access to healthcare?
Where has anyone said that? Please stick to what is said instead of the usual
Would you care to explain how children pay taxes
?
We're on an adult website so when someone says 'we all' they're likely to be speaking of adults
So you can only benefit from the system if you have contributed?
No Lionel, everyone can benefit as a last resort.
Children are naturally exempt from paying taxes.
If suggest you read the post again which began
Of we all meet our obligations
Did you miss the part where I said that on an adult website 'we all' likely refers to adults
I'm not sure
I did miss the bit where I said she meant there is no such thing as society and you your pal accused me of deliberately misquoting her and yet someone has said the sane thing as me and you have said nada.
Consistency folks."
I said I agreed she said it. However, context is everything actually  |
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By *eavenNhellCouple
over a year ago
carrbrook stalybridge |
"Thatcher believed in individualism
That was the whole ethos or toryism
Buy your own house,buy shares.look after no 1.
She despised any sort of collectivism
So her stuff about your neighbor'looking after you is clearly contradictory
People shoudmt rely on the state..they should look after themselves..which ties in.fully with her rolling back the state speech.
Thus there is mo such thing as society.
Is there anything wrong with individual ambition?
Or an individual desire not to be a burden on the state?
Personally expecting the state to help me out if I lost my job.
And was homeless
After spending years paying in through ni..wouldnt constitute a "burden '
Thats the state's responsibility to help those in need. Unforeseen circumstances happen to anyone and everyone, and that safety net is invaluable.
But surely that comes as a responsibilty for society to realise that its not a bottomless pit of money, and we must all do our part in its upkeep. "
including those who evade paying taxes through legal and illegal means ? It's all very well her chastising the poor for being poor and not being able to contribute but what about the ganster capitalism she set up and enabled who do everything they can NOT to contribute .? |
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By *ercuryMan
over a year ago
Grantham |
"Thatcher believed in individualism
That was the whole ethos or toryism
Buy your own house,buy shares.look after no 1.
She despised any sort of collectivism
So her stuff about your neighbor'looking after you is clearly contradictory
People shoudmt rely on the state..they should look after themselves..which ties in.fully with her rolling back the state speech.
Thus there is mo such thing as society.
Is there anything wrong with individual ambition?
Or an individual desire not to be a burden on the state?
Personally expecting the state to help me out if I lost my job.
And was homeless
After spending years paying in through ni..wouldnt constitute a "burden '
Thats the state's responsibility to help those in need. Unforeseen circumstances happen to anyone and everyone, and that safety net is invaluable.
But surely that comes as a responsibilty for society to realise that its not a bottomless pit of money, and we must all do our part in its upkeep. including those who evade paying taxes through legal and illegal means ? It's all very well her chastising the poor for being poor and not being able to contribute but what about the ganster capitalism she set up and enabled who do everything they can NOT to contribute .?"
The top 1% of earners pay around 28% of the total income tax take but I agree that there has to be a more simplified way of collecting more tax from the wealthiest.
Tax avoidance flirts with tax evasion and it needs bringing into line. |
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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago
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I personally agree with everything That the Right Honourable Lady has said.
I have always been a “Thatcherite “
And recall only too well the 33.5% tax that was in place under Labour, just before she was elected. |
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"I personally agree with everything That the Right Honourable Lady has said.
I have always been a “Thatcherite “
And recall only too well the 33.5% tax that was in place under Labour, just before she was elected."
Damm those public services |
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