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By *ercury OP Man
over a year ago
Grantham |
Eurostar has seen revenues plummet by 95%, running just 4 trains (with 10% occupancy) instead of the normal 50 trains per day.
The Company is said to be close to collapse, and the UK taxpayer is being urged to step in and help with a bailout.
However, Eurostar is owned by the French railway (55%), the Belgian railway (5%), with the remainder owned by Canadian pension and investment funds (40%).
Do we have a moral duty to step in and help here? |
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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago
|
"Eurostar has seen revenues plummet by 95%, running just 4 trains (with 10% occupancy) instead of the normal 50 trains per day.
The Company is said to be close to collapse, and the UK taxpayer is being urged to step in and help with a bailout.
However, Eurostar is owned by the French railway (55%), the Belgian railway (5%), with the remainder owned by Canadian pension and investment funds (40%).
Do we have a moral duty to step in and help here? "
The Belgian, French and Canadian govt. / pension funds should be paying. |
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Non 
Eurostar profits, millions of euro, have been paid out to shareholders over the years.
Investors/shareholders should open their pockets.
British taxpayer propping up a majority French-state owned company?
 |
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By *mmabluTV/TS
over a year ago
upton wirral |
"Eurostar has seen revenues plummet by 95%, running just 4 trains (with 10% occupancy) instead of the normal 50 trains per day.
The Company is said to be close to collapse, and the UK taxpayer is being urged to step in and help with a bailout.
However, Eurostar is owned by the French railway (55%), the Belgian railway (5%), with the remainder owned by Canadian pension and investment funds (40%).
Do we have a moral duty to step in and help here? "
No |
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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago
|
"Eurostar has seen revenues plummet by 95%, running just 4 trains (with 10% occupancy) instead of the normal 50 trains per day.
The Company is said to be close to collapse, and the UK taxpayer is being urged to step in and help with a bailout.
However, Eurostar is owned by the French railway (55%), the Belgian railway (5%), with the remainder owned by Canadian pension and investment funds (40%).
Do we have a moral duty to step in and help here? "
What exactly is the proposal, for the Government to buy part of all of Eurostar, nationalising it?
I don't really understand what's being proposed.
I don't think it provides an essential service, such as bus routes in rural areas. So I don't think there is a moral obligation to save the company.
Unless I'm missing something? |
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"Eurostar has seen revenues plummet by 95%, running just 4 trains (with 10% occupancy) instead of the normal 50 trains per day.
The Company is said to be close to collapse, and the UK taxpayer is being urged to step in and help with a bailout.
However, Eurostar is owned by the French railway (55%), the Belgian railway (5%), with the remainder owned by Canadian pension and investment funds (40%).
Do we have a moral duty to step in and help here?"
Definitely not. That said, you have to wonder how the loss of it as a viable industry will affect London and the SE of England. |
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By *abioMan
over a year ago
Newcastle and Gateshead |
"Eurostar has seen revenues plummet by 95%, running just 4 trains (with 10% occupancy) instead of the normal 50 trains per day.
The Company is said to be close to collapse, and the UK taxpayer is being urged to step in and help with a bailout.
However, Eurostar is owned by the French railway (55%), the Belgian railway (5%), with the remainder owned by Canadian pension and investment funds (40%).
Do we have a moral duty to step in and help here? "
Just from an environmental angle i can make an argument....
Eurostar takes about 75% of all the traffic now between London and Paris... 80% of all the traffic between London and Brussels, and 60% of the traffic between London and Amsterdam
Just imagine how many more planes you would need to put up in the air to compensate
If you are going to bail out airlines... then why not international train travel |
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By *ercury OP Man
over a year ago
Grantham |
"Eurostar has seen revenues plummet by 95%, running just 4 trains (with 10% occupancy) instead of the normal 50 trains per day.
The Company is said to be close to collapse, and the UK taxpayer is being urged to step in and help with a bailout.
However, Eurostar is owned by the French railway (55%), the Belgian railway (5%), with the remainder owned by Canadian pension and investment funds (40%).
Do we have a moral duty to step in and help here?
Just from an environmental angle i can make an argument....
Eurostar takes about 75% of all the traffic now between London and Paris... 80% of all the traffic between London and Brussels, and 60% of the traffic between London and Amsterdam
Just imagine how many more planes you would need to put up in the air to compensate
If you are going to bail out airlines... then why not international train travel"
Thats the angle being used. Its green and environmentally friendly.
The Dutch and Belgians seem to want to help out financially, but are stating EU aid rules on why they can't.
|
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Nothing to do with UK tax payers, we don’t own Eurostar or Getlink so why should we subside another countries pensions or other countries rail industries, there is enough of that on the UK rail system as it is. It’s down to the owners to support them in these times, I’m sure that if there are UK Eurostar staff on furlough they are getting 80% of their wage from the UK tax payers which will be helping Eurostar, surely if the French Government or anyone else want UK tax payer cash they should be giving us some of their shares in these companies so we can get our money back with a decent return x |
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By *abioMan
over a year ago
Newcastle and Gateshead |
"Nothing to do with UK tax payers, we don’t own Eurostar or Getlink so why should we subside another countries pensions or other countries rail industries, there is enough of that on the UK rail system as it is. It’s down to the owners to support them in these times, I’m sure that if there are UK Eurostar staff on furlough they are getting 80% of their wage from the UK tax payers which will be helping Eurostar, surely if the French Government or anyone else want UK tax payer cash they should be giving us some of their shares in these companies so we can get our money back with a decent return x"
But the uk domestic railway system has basically been nationalised where all franchise agreements have been suspended and the uk government are covering all loses... the only railway company that is not covered by this is Eurostar
So using that principle do you bail out virgin, or easyJet, or BA? |
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"Nothing to do with UK tax payers, we don’t own Eurostar or Getlink so why should we subside another countries pensions or other countries rail industries, there is enough of that on the UK rail system as it is. It’s down to the owners to support them in these times, I’m sure that if there are UK Eurostar staff on furlough they are getting 80% of their wage from the UK tax payers which will be helping Eurostar, surely if the French Government or anyone else want UK tax payer cash they should be giving us some of their shares in these companies so we can get our money back with a decent return x
But the uk domestic railway system has basically been nationalised where all franchise agreements have been suspended and the uk government are covering all loses... the only railway company that is not covered by this is Eurostar
So using that principle do you bail out virgin, or easyJet, or BA? "
So you do realise that the rail franchises are predominantly owned by none UK companies & many of the companies that do own these franchises or often owned or part owned by European state rail companies. Personally I would renationalise the whole of the UK rail system, as far as Eurostar is concerned I don’t use it never have & more than likely never will like the vast majority of the UK & we are more likely to use our own national network. As for the airlines like Eurostar or Getlink they are private companies & should support themselves, they can raise money if investors see it as a worth while investment, why should the tax payer not expect their money back? Would you invest your pension in one of these companies & expect a return or would you just give them your pension pot & then have nothing to retire on? |
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"Eurostar has seen revenues plummet by 95%, running just 4 trains (with 10% occupancy) instead of the normal 50 trains per day.
The Company is said to be close to collapse, and the UK taxpayer is being urged to step in and help with a bailout.
However, Eurostar is owned by the French railway (55%), the Belgian railway (5%), with the remainder owned by Canadian pension and investment funds (40%).
Do we have a moral duty to step in and help here?
Just from an environmental angle i can make an argument....
Eurostar takes about 75% of all the traffic now between London and Paris... 80% of all the traffic between London and Brussels, and 60% of the traffic between London and Amsterdam
Just imagine how many more planes you would need to put up in the air to compensate
If you are going to bail out airlines... then why not international train travel
Thats the angle being used. Its green and environmentally friendly.
The Dutch and Belgians seem to want to help out financially, but are stating EU aid rules on why they can't.
"
I'm sure the eu temporarily removed parts of the state aid rules to allow governments to support national businesses during the pandemic - so the Dutch and Belgians may have another reason why they are unable/unwilling to support the company
Shouldn't be an issue for the French though, to support Eurostar, as they are already supporting airfrance-klm to the tune of €5b - for an increased share.
Seems to indicate the moral responsibility, environmental or otherwise lies not with the tax payer of the uk, but with the governments of the countries who already have a vested financial interest/responsibility. |
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"Eurostar has seen revenues plummet by 95%, running just 4 trains (with 10% occupancy) instead of the normal 50 trains per day.
The Company is said to be close to collapse, and the UK taxpayer is being urged to step in and help with a bailout.
However, Eurostar is owned by the French railway (55%), the Belgian railway (5%), with the remainder owned by Canadian pension and investment funds (40%).
Do we have a moral duty to step in and help here? "
No. |
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"Eurostar has seen revenues plummet by 95%, running just 4 trains (with 10% occupancy) instead of the normal 50 trains per day.
The Company is said to be close to collapse, and the UK taxpayer is being urged to step in and help with a bailout.
However, Eurostar is owned by the French railway (55%), the Belgian railway (5%), with the remainder owned by Canadian pension and investment funds (40%).
Do we have a moral duty to step in and help here? "
Is this a bail out like buying a stake in it from say the French? If its got a profitable future then worth looking at. If its just through a load of money at it then no certainly not as that's down to the current owners |
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"Were the banks we bailed out all british owned? Yes Lionel & the UK government got shares in them that have or will be sold at some point, this was done under the last labour government x"
I know. |
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"Were the banks we bailed out all british owned?"
are you suggesting that because the banks, which were not British owned, were bailed out by the uk tax payer then eurostar (not British owned) should also be bailed out by the uk?
Comparing the banking infrastructure with a profitable rail link between Europe and uk with equal importance to the uk? Yes?
|
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"Were the banks we bailed out all british owned? Yes Lionel & the UK government got shares in them that have or will be sold at some point, this was done under the last labour government x"
So they bought into the banks as opposed to just giving money. I'm not sure if any of the banks were owned by another state like France for example |
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"Were the banks we bailed out all british owned?
are you suggesting that because the banks, which were not British owned, were bailed out by the uk tax payer then eurostar (not British owned) should also be bailed out by the uk?
Comparing the banking infrastructure with a profitable rail link between Europe and uk with equal importance to the uk? Yes?
"
Nope
I was asking a simple question.
Were the banks British owned. |
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"Were the banks we bailed out all british owned? Yes Lionel & the UK government got shares in them that have or will be sold at some point, this was done under the last labour government x
I know."
Lionel would you invest your pension in one of these companies & expect a return, or would you just give them your pension pot & have nothing to retire on? If the Governments of France Netherlands or Belgium want UK taxpayer money, same as whoever pension company then give the UK taxpayers some of the equity they own in them, so we can get our money back when the time is right x |
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"Were the banks we bailed out all british owned?
are you suggesting that because the banks, which were not British owned, were bailed out by the uk tax payer then eurostar (not British owned) should also be bailed out by the uk?
Comparing the banking infrastructure with a profitable rail link between Europe and uk with equal importance to the uk? Yes?
Nope
I was asking a simple question.
Were the banks British owned."
I'm not at all sure. I suspect some were and some were not British. Not heard of any that were owned by another state though not looked into it very much. |
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"Were the banks we bailed out all british owned? Yes Lionel & the UK government got shares in them that have or will be sold at some point, this was done under the last labour government x
I know. Lionel would you invest your pension in one of these companies & expect a return, or would you just give them your pension pot & have nothing to retire on? If the Governments of France Netherlands or Belgium want UK taxpayer money, same as whoever pension company then give the UK taxpayers some of the equity they own in them, so we can get our money back when the time is right x "
I'm not making the comparison to Eurostar
I was simply asking if the banks we bailed out where English.
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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago
|
"Were the banks we bailed out all british owned? Yes Lionel & the UK government got shares in them that have or will be sold at some point, this was done under the last labour government x
I know. Lionel would you invest your pension in one of these companies & expect a return, or would you just give them your pension pot & have nothing to retire on? If the Governments of France Netherlands or Belgium want UK taxpayer money, same as whoever pension company then give the UK taxpayers some of the equity they own in them, so we can get our money back when the time is right x
I'm not making the comparison to Eurostar
I was simply asking if the banks we bailed out where English.
"
What is the relevance of your question to this subject? |
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"Were the banks we bailed out all british owned?
are you suggesting that because the banks, which were not British owned, were bailed out by the uk tax payer then eurostar (not British owned) should also be bailed out by the uk?
Comparing the banking infrastructure with a profitable rail link between Europe and uk with equal importance to the uk? Yes?
Nope
I was asking a simple question.
Were the banks British owned."
Sure, ok.
So whats your thinking behind the simple question then?
Moral obligation is there if it's British owned, but less obligation if it's not?
What's your view - bail them out or not?
|
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"Were the banks we bailed out all british owned? Yes Lionel & the UK government got shares in them that have or will be sold at some point, this was done under the last labour government x
I know. Lionel would you invest your pension in one of these companies & expect a return, or would you just give them your pension pot & have nothing to retire on? If the Governments of France Netherlands or Belgium want UK taxpayer money, same as whoever pension company then give the UK taxpayers some of the equity they own in them, so we can get our money back when the time is right x
I'm not making the comparison to Eurostar
I was simply asking if the banks we bailed out where English.
"
I can see where you are going with this Lionel - but the one caveat for saving the Banks in the UK was that it would have deeply affected every single man woman and child in the country directly.
Not assisting with bailing out euro tunnel would not even have close to the same mass effect. |
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"Were the banks we bailed out all british owned? Yes Lionel & the UK government got shares in them that have or will be sold at some point, this was done under the last labour government x
I know. Lionel would you invest your pension in one of these companies & expect a return, or would you just give them your pension pot & have nothing to retire on? If the Governments of France Netherlands or Belgium want UK taxpayer money, same as whoever pension company then give the UK taxpayers some of the equity they own in them, so we can get our money back when the time is right x
I'm not making the comparison to Eurostar
I was simply asking if the banks we bailed out where English.
What is the relevance of your question to this subject?"
Because I simply wanted to know if they were British owned or not
For about the 7th time now |
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"Were the banks we bailed out all british owned?
are you suggesting that because the banks, which were not British owned, were bailed out by the uk tax payer then eurostar (not British owned) should also be bailed out by the uk?
Comparing the banking infrastructure with a profitable rail link between Europe and uk with equal importance to the uk? Yes?
Nope
I was asking a simple question.
Were the banks British owned.
Sure, ok.
So whats your thinking behind the simple question then?
Moral obligation is there if it's British owned, but less obligation if it's not?
What's your view - bail them out or not?
"
On banks you mean? |
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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago
|
"Were the banks we bailed out all british owned? Yes Lionel & the UK government got shares in them that have or will be sold at some point, this was done under the last labour government x
I know. Lionel would you invest your pension in one of these companies & expect a return, or would you just give them your pension pot & have nothing to retire on? If the Governments of France Netherlands or Belgium want UK taxpayer money, same as whoever pension company then give the UK taxpayers some of the equity they own in them, so we can get our money back when the time is right x
I'm not making the comparison to Eurostar
I was simply asking if the banks we bailed out where English.
What is the relevance of your question to this subject?
Because I simply wanted to know if they were British owned or not
For about the 7th time now"
Then start a new thread.
Keep this one on track  |
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"Were the banks we bailed out all british owned? Yes Lionel & the UK government got shares in them that have or will be sold at some point, this was done under the last labour government x
I know. Lionel would you invest your pension in one of these companies & expect a return, or would you just give them your pension pot & have nothing to retire on? If the Governments of France Netherlands or Belgium want UK taxpayer money, same as whoever pension company then give the UK taxpayers some of the equity they own in them, so we can get our money back when the time is right x
I'm not making the comparison to Eurostar
I was simply asking if the banks we bailed out where English.
I can see where you are going with this Lionel - but the one caveat for saving the Banks in the UK was that it would have deeply affected every single man woman and child in the country directly.
Not assisting with bailing out euro tunnel would not even have close to the same mass effect. "
I'm not saying the bailing the banks out was the wrong thing to do.
And I'm not saying we should bail out Eurostar as they are 2 completely different institutions. |
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"Were the banks we bailed out all british owned? Yes Lionel & the UK government got shares in them that have or will be sold at some point, this was done under the last labour government x
I know. Lionel would you invest your pension in one of these companies & expect a return, or would you just give them your pension pot & have nothing to retire on? If the Governments of France Netherlands or Belgium want UK taxpayer money, same as whoever pension company then give the UK taxpayers some of the equity they own in them, so we can get our money back when the time is right x
I'm not making the comparison to Eurostar
I was simply asking if the banks we bailed out where English.
I can see where you are going with this Lionel - but the one caveat for saving the Banks in the UK was that it would have deeply affected every single man woman and child in the country directly.
Not assisting with bailing out euro tunnel would not even have close to the same mass effect.
I'm not saying the bailing the banks out was the wrong thing to do.
And I'm not saying we should bail out Eurostar as they are 2 completely different institutions. "
Wasn't suggesting you were. Just highlighting the level of need between the both. |
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"Were the banks we bailed out all british owned?
are you suggesting that because the banks, which were not British owned, were bailed out by the uk tax payer then eurostar (not British owned) should also be bailed out by the uk?
Comparing the banking infrastructure with a profitable rail link between Europe and uk with equal importance to the uk? Yes?
Nope
I was asking a simple question.
Were the banks British owned.
Sure, ok.
So whats your thinking behind the simple question then?
Moral obligation is there if it's British owned, but less obligation if it's not?
What's your view - bail them out or not?
On banks you mean?"
No, because the subject is eurostar .
Bail out eurostar or not? |
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"Were the banks we bailed out all british owned?
are you suggesting that because the banks, which were not British owned, were bailed out by the uk tax payer then eurostar (not British owned) should also be bailed out by the uk?
Comparing the banking infrastructure with a profitable rail link between Europe and uk with equal importance to the uk? Yes?
Nope
I was asking a simple question.
Were the banks British owned.
Sure, ok.
So whats your thinking behind the simple question then?
Moral obligation is there if it's British owned, but less obligation if it's not?
What's your view - bail them out or not?
On banks you mean?
No, because the subject is eurostar .
Bail out eurostar or not?"
I dont know.
I certainly wouldnt say we had a moral duty
If we bailed them out I'm assuming we would acquire shares in it?
I dont know how profitable it Is..so would it be in our interests?
I truly dont know. |
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"Were the banks we bailed out all british owned?
are you suggesting that because the banks, which were not British owned, were bailed out by the uk tax payer then eurostar (not British owned) should also be bailed out by the uk?
Comparing the banking infrastructure with a profitable rail link between Europe and uk with equal importance to the uk? Yes?
Nope
I was asking a simple question.
Were the banks British owned.
Sure, ok.
So whats your thinking behind the simple question then?
Moral obligation is there if it's British owned, but less obligation if it's not?
What's your view - bail them out or not?
On banks you mean?
No, because the subject is eurostar .
Bail out eurostar or not?
I dont know.
I certainly wouldnt say we had a moral duty
If we bailed them out I'm assuming we would acquire shares in it?
I dont know how profitable it Is..so would it be in our interests?
I truly dont know."
Ok  |
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the outcome will possibly depend on how heavily invested in the company our political decision makers and theri family/friends are. if their personal share portfolio is affected then there will be an increased probability that they will use taxpayers money to cover the losses so that they can continue to receive their dividends. |
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By *ercury OP Man
over a year ago
Grantham |
"the outcome will possibly depend on how heavily invested in the company our political decision makers and theri family/friends are. if their personal share portfolio is affected then there will be an increased probability that they will use taxpayers money to cover the losses so that they can continue to receive their dividends."
And are they? Can't be in SNCF or SNCB, as they are state owned. |
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"Eurostar has seen revenues plummet by 95%, running just 4 trains (with 10% occupancy) instead of the normal 50 trains per day.
The Company is said to be close to collapse, and the UK taxpayer is being urged to step in and help with a bailout.
However, Eurostar is owned by the French railway (55%), the Belgian railway (5%), with the remainder owned by Canadian pension and investment funds (40%).
Do we have a moral duty to step in and help here?
Just from an environmental angle i can make an argument....
Eurostar takes about 75% of all the traffic now between London and Paris... 80% of all the traffic between London and Brussels, and 60% of the traffic between London and Amsterdam
Just imagine how many more planes you would need to put up in the air to compensate
If you are going to bail out airlines... then why not international train travel"
so France Belgium and Canada have a moral duty to step in and help save the planet then |
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Same as the airlines really. If Eurostar (British Airways) goes bust then the track and trains (planes and airports) will still exist ready for another operator.
The owners, pension funds will make huge tax deductible losses but if and when there is demand for the service the market will incentivise new operators to step in.
No reason for the UK taxpayer to step in.
(According to the Times, not all UK rail franchises have been nationalised, on the East coast mainline are two competitive operators who have mothballed their rolling stock but they’ve not been paid or bailed out.) |
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By *abioMan
over a year ago
Newcastle and Gateshead |
"Same as the airlines really. If Eurostar (British Airways) goes bust then the track and trains (planes and airports) will still exist ready for another operator.
The owners, pension funds will make huge tax deductible losses but if and when there is demand for the service the market will incentivise new operators to step in.
No reason for the UK taxpayer to step in.
(According to the Times, not all UK rail franchises have been nationalised, on the East coast mainline are two competitive operators who have mothballed their rolling stock but they’ve not been paid or bailed out.)"
Hull trains and grand central is private operators that run on the uk network... everything else is a franchise within the national railway network.. and all those have basically been nationalised at the moment so government is responsible for the costs and the TOC’s solely for running passenger trains
Rather than the bank argument which I think is a red herring..... let’s go back to a travel comparison..
If you are going to bail out the likes of Virgin, easyJet and British airways... none of which are government owned... then why not Eurostar..
What you are basically saying is international planes yes, international trains no! |
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"Same as the airlines really. If Eurostar (British Airways) goes bust then the track and trains (planes and airports) will still exist ready for another operator.
The owners, pension funds will make huge tax deductible losses but if and when there is demand for the service the market will incentivise new operators to step in.
No reason for the UK taxpayer to step in.
(According to the Times, not all UK rail franchises have been nationalised, on the East coast mainline are two competitive operators who have mothballed their rolling stock but they’ve not been paid or bailed out.)
Hull trains and grand central is private operators that run on the uk network... everything else is a franchise within the national railway network.. and all those have basically been nationalised at the moment so government is responsible for the costs and the TOC’s solely for running passenger trains
Rather than the bank argument which I think is a red herring..... let’s go back to a travel comparison..
If you are going to bail out the likes of Virgin, easyJet and British airways... none of which are government owned... then why not Eurostar..
What you are basically saying is international planes yes, international trains no!"
but why do you think the U.K. government should bail them out and not the french Belgium Dutch or Canadian then if it would help the planet like you said why arnt they so concerned why the U.K. amd not them ???? |
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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago
|
"Nothing to do with UK tax payers, we don’t own Eurostar or Getlink so why should we subside another countries pensions or other countries rail industries, there is enough of that on the UK rail system as it is. It’s down to the owners to support them in these times, I’m sure that if there are UK Eurostar staff on furlough they are getting 80% of their wage from the UK tax payers which will be helping Eurostar, surely if the French Government or anyone else want UK tax payer cash they should be giving us some of their shares in these companies so we can get our money back with a decent return x
But the uk domestic railway system has basically been nationalised where all franchise agreements have been suspended and the uk government are covering all loses... the only railway company that is not covered by this is Eurostar
So using that principle do you bail out virgin, or easyJet, or BA? "
I wouldn't help any im sorry but if it means people lose there jobs so be it it's a private company and not even british. |
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By *eroy1000Man
over a year ago
milton keynes |
"Same as the airlines really. If Eurostar (British Airways) goes bust then the track and trains (planes and airports) will still exist ready for another operator.
The owners, pension funds will make huge tax deductible losses but if and when there is demand for the service the market will incentivise new operators to step in.
No reason for the UK taxpayer to step in.
(According to the Times, not all UK rail franchises have been nationalised, on the East coast mainline are two competitive operators who have mothballed their rolling stock but they’ve not been paid or bailed out.)
Hull trains and grand central is private operators that run on the uk network... everything else is a franchise within the national railway network.. and all those have basically been nationalised at the moment so government is responsible for the costs and the TOC’s solely for running passenger trains
Rather than the bank argument which I think is a red herring..... let’s go back to a travel comparison..
If you are going to bail out the likes of Virgin, easyJet and British airways... none of which are government owned... then why not Eurostar..
What you are basically saying is international planes yes, international trains no!"
Why are France and Belgium not bailing it out? |
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