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Offensive flag?
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Anyone know the facts behind this story about a flag outside Sefton council hall on Merseyside, being taken down following a complaint by an activist. Because it said ‘Woman: adult, human female’ on it. In support of international women's day. Can't be true can it? |
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From BBC Website
"Flags flown at two town halls to celebrate International Women's Day were branded "transphobic" amid a flurry of complaints.
Flags which read: "Woman, noun, adult human female" were flown at Southport and Bootle town halls on Monday.
The slogan was widely criticised on social media as a recognised symbol of a "transphobic hate group".
Sefton Council apologised and said it removed the flags as soon as they realised they were causing offence. " |
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By *ayRosesWoman
over a year ago
Edinburgh |
"From BBC Website
"Flags flown at two town halls to celebrate International Women's Day were branded "transphobic" amid a flurry of complaints.
Flags which read: "Woman, noun, adult human female" were flown at Southport and Bootle town halls on Monday.
The slogan was widely criticised on social media as a recognised symbol of a "transphobic hate group".
Sefton Council apologised and said it removed the flags as soon as they realised they were causing offence. ""
A claim which has absolutely been denied by all individuals involved in the group.
It depends on whether or not you believe the word "woman" belongs to those with large gametes, ie a sex class, or if you believe that's irrelevant and gender identity should determine the meaning of the word.
See also Karen White, Jessica Yaniv and Alex Drummond. |
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"From BBC Website
"Flags flown at two town halls to celebrate International Women's Day were branded "transphobic" amid a flurry of complaints.
Flags which read: "Woman, noun, adult human female" were flown at Southport and Bootle town halls on Monday.
The slogan was widely criticised on social media as a recognised symbol of a "transphobic hate group".
Sefton Council apologised and said it removed the flags as soon as they realised they were causing offence. "
A claim which has absolutely been denied by all individuals involved in the group.
It depends on whether or not you believe the word "woman" belongs to those with large gametes, ie a sex class, or if you believe that's irrelevant and gender identity should determine the meaning of the word.
See also Karen White, Jessica Yaniv and Alex Drummond."
I’ve heard about Jessica Yaniv before. Trying to get lone females to wax her genitals and then sue then them if they didn’t? |
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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago
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People's Front of Judea? .......wankers they are....We're the Judean People's Front.....not to be confused with the Popular Judean People's Front. ...splitting bastards they are.. |
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By *ee04Man
over a year ago
Essex |
No matter what the flag says someone will find it offensive.
Flags by nature cause tribalism. I love my counties flag and my county flag because it where I’m from. But now my country flag is seen as a racist flag because of garbage like the EDL and there ilk.
I used to fly one in the garden when we were in a wild cup Rugby, Football and cricket to show my support.
Now I don’t as I don’t want to be seen as a racist.
I’m English, I’m European but most importantly I’m human.
EDL carrying my countries flag and doing Nazi salutes makes my blood boil. How manny died defending that flag from that ideology to watch them parading it around.
Sorry completely gone off topic and OPs question. |
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By *rMrsRichCouple
over a year ago
Bournemouh |
This I really don’t get. If gender identify should define the meaning of the word and If you identify as a woman/female then the definition of the noun ‘woman’ being ‘adult human female’ surely wouldn’t offend you because that’s what you see yourself as?
It’s seems backwards to me.
I want to be different but treat me the same? |
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By *rMrsRichCouple
over a year ago
Bournemouh |
"This I really don’t get. If gender identify should define the meaning of the word and If you identify as a woman/female then the definition of the noun ‘woman’ being ‘adult human female’ surely wouldn’t offend you because that’s what you see yourself as?
It’s seems backwards to me.
I want to be different but treat me the same? "
*identity
Dammit! |
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"This I really don’t get. If gender identify should define the meaning of the word and If you identify as a woman/female then the definition of the noun ‘woman’ being ‘adult human female’ surely wouldn’t offend you because that’s what you see yourself as?
It’s seems backwards to me.
I want to be different but treat me the same? "
People can consider themselves to be a woman (gender, a social construct) without claiming to be female (sex, a biological description).
The intent of this flag is to say that only biology matters and that transwomen are not 'real' women. |
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"This I really don’t get. If gender identify should define the meaning of the word and If you identify as a woman/female then the definition of the noun ‘woman’ being ‘adult human female’ surely wouldn’t offend you because that’s what you see yourself as?
It’s seems backwards to me.
I want to be different but treat me the same?
People can consider themselves to be a woman (gender, a social construct) without claiming to be female (sex, a biological description).
The intent of this flag is to say that only biology matters and that transwomen are not 'real' women. "
I’m not up to speed here was someone behind the flag then? I thought the intent was to support the day itself by the local authority? |
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By *rMrsRichCouple
over a year ago
Bournemouh |
"This I really don’t get. If gender identify should define the meaning of the word and If you identify as a woman/female then the definition of the noun ‘woman’ being ‘adult human female’ surely wouldn’t offend you because that’s what you see yourself as?
It’s seems backwards to me.
I want to be different but treat me the same?
Depends on whether you think that a person born with a penis is female, or someone born with a vagina is male or not. And whether you think sex and gender is the same thing."
Well not really, the definition of woman being quoted here doesn’t mention genitals or sex at birth.
So it’s about interpretation? So a perceived interpretation of the definition is causing offence? Again that all makes no sense.
So the only way to not cause offence is to not say, write, present, display anything that may be perceived or interpreted differently by 7 billion people?
It sounds like a hard job. |
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By *rMrsRichCouple
over a year ago
Bournemouh |
"This I really don’t get. If gender identify should define the meaning of the word and If you identify as a woman/female then the definition of the noun ‘woman’ being ‘adult human female’ surely wouldn’t offend you because that’s what you see yourself as?
It’s seems backwards to me.
I want to be different but treat me the same?
People can consider themselves to be a woman (gender, a social construct) without claiming to be female (sex, a biological description).
The intent of this flag is to say that only biology matters and that transwomen are not 'real' women. "
Aha! Thank you that makes a little more sense. So the word ‘female’ being used to define ‘woman’ is where the problem is?
I see I didn’t realise some trans folk may only identify as one or the other. In fact I’ve never really scrutinised the definitions of the words that apparently define me!
So I’m gonna go out there with some new controversy.
The true definition of being a woman is not really giving a shit what the actual meaning of ‘woman’ and ‘female’ are. |
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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago
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"And I'm 45, so gen x, not a fucking boomer before anyone starts
Well I'm 58, Gen xxx, soon to be extinct. ..."
Race you there 
I'm 63, almost 64, and this recent cock about gender being a choice is such a neap of tosh. Born with a cock and balls - male.
Born with a cunt and womb - female.
Live with it. If you want to be otherwise then get sliced and change it, but otherwise wishing doesn't make it so.
Ruuuuun!!! |
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By *ayRosesWoman
over a year ago
Edinburgh |
"This I really don’t get. If gender identify should define the meaning of the word and If you identify as a woman/female then the definition of the noun ‘woman’ being ‘adult human female’ surely wouldn’t offend you because that’s what you see yourself as?
It’s seems backwards to me.
I want to be different but treat me the same?
People can consider themselves to be a woman (gender, a social construct) without claiming to be female (sex, a biological description).
The intent of this flag is to say that only biology matters and that transwomen are not 'real' women. "
People can identify in any way they like.
Enforced sex stereotypes and oppression is not based on gender expression, but sex class. To quote a number of FGM activists, no one asked me what my gender identity was before they mutilated my gentials. |
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By *ayRosesWoman
over a year ago
Edinburgh |
"This I really don’t get. If gender identify should define the meaning of the word and If you identify as a woman/female then the definition of the noun ‘woman’ being ‘adult human female’ surely wouldn’t offend you because that’s what you see yourself as?
It’s seems backwards to me.
I want to be different but treat me the same?
People can consider themselves to be a woman (gender, a social construct) without claiming to be female (sex, a biological description).
The intent of this flag is to say that only biology matters and that transwomen are not 'real' women.
Aha! Thank you that makes a little more sense. So the word ‘female’ being used to define ‘woman’ is where the problem is?
I see I didn’t realise some trans folk may only identify as one or the other. In fact I’ve never really scrutinised the definitions of the words that apparently define me!
So I’m gonna go out there with some new controversy.
The true definition of being a woman is not really giving a shit what the actual meaning of ‘woman’ and ‘female’ are. "
So you're happy for eddie Izzard to stand for the labour nec on an all-women shortlist? Or Laurel Hubbard to compete at the Olympics? Or Karen White to be imprisoned in a female prison? Or Pip Bunce to win an award for businesswomen? |
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"This I really don’t get. If gender identify should define the meaning of the word and If you identify as a woman/female then the definition of the noun ‘woman’ being ‘adult human female’ surely wouldn’t offend you because that’s what you see yourself as?
It’s seems backwards to me.
I want to be different but treat me the same?
People can consider themselves to be a woman (gender, a social construct) without claiming to be female (sex, a biological description).
The intent of this flag is to say that only biology matters and that transwomen are not 'real' women.
Aha! Thank you that makes a little more sense. So the word ‘female’ being used to define ‘woman’ is where the problem is?
I see I didn’t realise some trans folk may only identify as one or the other. In fact I’ve never really scrutinised the definitions of the words that apparently define me!
So I’m gonna go out there with some new controversy.
The true definition of being a woman is not really giving a shit what the actual meaning of ‘woman’ and ‘female’ are. "
There are probably people on both sides of this debate who use women and female to mean the same thing. It does make the whole thing difficult to discuss at times.
Abolishing all gender and gender stereotypes would be the way forward ideally! |
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By *ee04Man
over a year ago
Essex |
Ring ignorant of some of the above I have just googled Jessica Yansiv sorry if spelt wrong.
It was mainly about her case against the waxing salons.
What a oxygen thief she is.
A typical example of the sorry excuses of human beings we have on the planet.
If I am looking for anything and it states something I don’t comply with I simply move along to the next one
I don’t get the hump I don’t give it a second thought.
I get waxed, I have a penis, if someone said in there add I don’t do them, fine. I’ll look for someone who does, I certainly don’t f el offended as they have the same choice I do. |
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"This I really don’t get. If gender identify should define the meaning of the word and If you identify as a woman/female then the definition of the noun ‘woman’ being ‘adult human female’ surely wouldn’t offend you because that’s what you see yourself as?
It’s seems backwards to me.
I want to be different but treat me the same?
People can consider themselves to be a woman (gender, a social construct) without claiming to be female (sex, a biological description).
The intent of this flag is to say that only biology matters and that transwomen are not 'real' women. "
Is there evidence of this intent? |
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By *ugby 123Couple
over a year ago
Forum Mod O o O oo |
"This I really don’t get. If gender identify should define the meaning of the word and If you identify as a woman/female then the definition of the noun ‘woman’ being ‘adult human female’ surely wouldn’t offend you because that’s what you see yourself as?
It’s seems backwards to me.
I want to be different but treat me the same?
People can consider themselves to be a woman (gender, a social construct) without claiming to be female (sex, a biological description).
The intent of this flag is to say that only biology matters and that transwomen are not 'real' women.
Is there evidence of this intent?"
I found this on their website
"We do not believe humans can change sex, or that one can be born in the wrong body." |
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"This I really don’t get. If gender identify should define the meaning of the word and If you identify as a woman/female then the definition of the noun ‘woman’ being ‘adult human female’ surely wouldn’t offend you because that’s what you see yourself as?
It’s seems backwards to me.
I want to be different but treat me the same?
People can consider themselves to be a woman (gender, a social construct) without claiming to be female (sex, a biological description).
The intent of this flag is to say that only biology matters and that transwomen are not 'real' women.
Is there evidence of this intent?
I found this on their website
"We do not believe humans can change sex, or that one can be born in the wrong body.""
The council's website? |
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By *ugby 123Couple
over a year ago
Forum Mod O o O oo |
"This I really don’t get. If gender identify should define the meaning of the word and If you identify as a woman/female then the definition of the noun ‘woman’ being ‘adult human female’ surely wouldn’t offend you because that’s what you see yourself as?
It’s seems backwards to me.
I want to be different but treat me the same?
People can consider themselves to be a woman (gender, a social construct) without claiming to be female (sex, a biological description).
The intent of this flag is to say that only biology matters and that transwomen are not 'real' women.
Is there evidence of this intent?
I found this on their website
"We do not believe humans can change sex, or that one can be born in the wrong body."
The council's website?"
That surely can't be a serious question  |
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By *ayRosesWoman
over a year ago
Edinburgh |
"It's certainly welcoming to see that "genital preferences are transphobic" is become the rule, rather than the exception.  "
Yeah, the concept of coercive r*pe is fab, isn't it? Why shouldn't lesbians accept penises into their *sex* life? Google cotton ceiling. |
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"This I really don’t get. If gender identify should define the meaning of the word and If you identify as a woman/female then the definition of the noun ‘woman’ being ‘adult human female’ surely wouldn’t offend you because that’s what you see yourself as?
It’s seems backwards to me.
I want to be different but treat me the same?
People can consider themselves to be a woman (gender, a social construct) without claiming to be female (sex, a biological description).
The intent of this flag is to say that only biology matters and that transwomen are not 'real' women.
Is there evidence of this intent?
I found this on their website
"We do not believe humans can change sex, or that one can be born in the wrong body."
The council's website?
That surely can't be a serious question "
Well which website? |
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"It's certainly welcoming to see that "genital preferences are transphobic" is become the rule, rather than the exception.
Yeah, the concept of coercive r*pe is fab, isn't it? Why shouldn't lesbians accept penises into their *sex* life? Google cotton ceiling."
A woman with a penis and a beard, with no physical differences at all to a man, is still a woman. To think differently is grossly transphobic. A lesbian with a penis is still a lesbian. |
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By *ugby 123Couple
over a year ago
Forum Mod O o O oo |
"
The intent of this flag is to say that only biology matters and that transwomen are not 'real' women.
Is there evidence of this intent?
I found this on their website
"We do not believe humans can change sex, or that one can be born in the wrong body."
The council's website?
That surely can't be a serious question
Well which website?"
The one who's intention you asked about.
As you started the thread I assumed you had read up on who's flag it is, if not, there is a name in the article I linked to, you will be able to google from there. |
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By *ee04Man
over a year ago
Essex |
"It's certainly welcoming to see that "genital preferences are transphobic" is become the rule, rather than the exception.
Yeah, the concept of coercive r*pe is fab, isn't it? Why shouldn't lesbians accept penises into their *sex* life? Google cotton ceiling.
I’m Brian and so’s my wife
A woman with a penis and a beard, with no physical differences at all to a man, is still a woman. To think differently is grossly transphobic. A lesbian with a penis is still a lesbian. "
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By *aitonelMan
over a year ago
Liverpool |
"And I'm 45, so gen x, not a fucking boomer before anyone starts
I've been called a boomer and I'm in my twenties lol.
"
When used it is refering to the mindset of a specific age group, not the age group itself. That's the whole point of the "insult" |
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By *ayRosesWoman
over a year ago
Edinburgh |
"It's certainly welcoming to see that "genital preferences are transphobic" is become the rule, rather than the exception.
Yeah, the concept of coercive r*pe is fab, isn't it? Why shouldn't lesbians accept penises into their *sex* life? Google cotton ceiling.
A woman with a penis and a beard, with no physical differences at all to a man, is still a woman. To think differently is grossly transphobic. A lesbian with a penis is still a lesbian. "
And that is grossly homophobic. Same sex attraction is just that. Hetrophobic as well, tbh.
I'm finished with this conversation. I'm not going to debate with someone who patently can't see the issue. |
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"It's certainly welcoming to see that "genital preferences are transphobic" is become the rule, rather than the exception.
Yeah, the concept of coercive r*pe is fab, isn't it? Why shouldn't lesbians accept penises into their *sex* life? Google cotton ceiling.
A woman with a penis and a beard, with no physical differences at all to a man, is still a woman. To think differently is grossly transphobic. A lesbian with a penis is still a lesbian. "
That's the ideology. We really do live in strange times. |
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"It's certainly welcoming to see that "genital preferences are transphobic" is become the rule, rather than the exception.
Yeah, the concept of coercive r*pe is fab, isn't it? Why shouldn't lesbians accept penises into their *sex* life? Google cotton ceiling.
A woman with a penis and a beard, with no physical differences at all to a man, is still a woman. To think differently is grossly transphobic. A lesbian with a penis is still a lesbian.
And that is grossly homophobic. Same sex attraction is just that. Hetrophobic as well, tbh.
I'm finished with this conversation. I'm not going to debate with someone who patently can't see the issue."
He's being ironic. He agrees with you. |
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"And I'm 45, so gen x, not a fucking boomer before anyone starts
I've been called a boomer and I'm in my twenties lol.
When used it is refering to the mindset of a specific age group, not the age group itself. That's the whole point of the "insult" "
Exactly! Your "average boomer" doesn't believe that a man is a woman as soon as she identifies as such. Which of course the more enlightened of us know is a transphobic point of view. |
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By *aitonelMan
over a year ago
Liverpool |
Scientifically it's not offensive or transphobic, or any other kind of phobic.
Socially it certainly is very much offensive to some.
Do I find it offensive? No.
Do I understand why others do? Yes
Do I feel compassion for those offended? Yes.
Will being so now make me offended? No.
For some it is still a period of adjustment, times have changed and even for those that accept changes little oversights like this will slip through, not through malice or hate but just old habits and years of thinking the way it used to be. |
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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago
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My issue with these topics is you never know where to start when trying to have a proper discussion
Everyones life experiences require a “case by case” exploration.
I find these debates difficult to navigate but happy to follow the comments |
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My take is that trans people deserve to live their best lives free of discrimination and abuse and in possession of full civil rights. But I also believe that transwomen are biologically male and that it's not physically possible to change sex.
That makes me a transphobe apparently. |
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By *aitonelMan
over a year ago
Liverpool |
"Welcome to International Women's Day when men try to redefine women. Sorry, guys, didn't realise that we weren't allowed to think for ourselves or have opinions that you didn't agree with."
Apology accepted. |
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By *aitonelMan
over a year ago
Liverpool |
"My issue with these topics is you never know where to start when trying to have a proper discussion
Everyones life experiences require a “case by case” exploration.
I find these debates difficult to navigate but happy to follow the comments "
That's the problem with social issues, they are never black and white. Yet often you are expected to view them as such which removes all sense of discussion.
I often still do though because fuck it, I'm a stubborn prick who likes to take on a challenge. |
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By *aitonelMan
over a year ago
Liverpool |
"My take is that trans people deserve to live their best lives free of discrimination and abuse and in possession of full civil rights. But I also believe that transwomen are biologically male and that it's not physically possible to change sex.
That makes me a transphobe apparently. "
Sorry! No middle ground allowed, you must be all in, or all out. |
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The problem here is that the council used the wrong flag. There is an official International Women's Day flag that could have been used and that nobody would have had an issue with.
Instead the council chose to use a flag from a pressure group called Standing for Women which have no official affiliation to International Women's Day.
The Standing for Women group have been criticised for being transphobic in that they have controversial views on transgender women that has led to hate and violence against trans women. Whatever your own personal view on trans women, and there are differing views here, nobody would want to see trans women persecuted I would hope.
The councils negligence in this case is the real story. |
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"The problem here is that the council used the wrong flag. There is an official International Women's Day flag that could have been used and that nobody would have had an issue with.
Instead the council chose to use a flag from a pressure group called Standing for Women which have no official affiliation to International Women's Day.
The Standing for Women group have been criticised for being transphobic in that they have controversial views on transgender women that has led to hate and violence against trans women. Whatever your own personal view on trans women, and there are differing views here, nobody would want to see trans women persecuted I would hope.
The councils negligence in this case is the real story. "
Could you give me an example as to where this groups activities has led to "hate and violence against trans women" |
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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago
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Rainbow flag would no doubt offend some ppl in the UK. Whether they're wrong to be offended or not, they're allowed to be, just as ppl flying a rainbow have every right to do so. Guns don't kill ppl innit...... peace  |
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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago
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"My take is that trans people deserve to live their best lives free of discrimination and abuse and in possession of full civil rights. But I also believe that transwomen are biologically male and that it's not physically possible to change sex.
That makes me a transphobe apparently. "
Transwomen are biologically male, and no, it's not physically possible to change your biological sex, however many people are confusing sex with gender and it is absolutely possible for the gender you feel yourself to be, not to match the sex you were born.
I'm a post-op transwomen who has had surgical intervention to align my body more with how I feel in my mind. I also take oestrogen to enhance the effects of the surgery.
I'm not claiming to be a cis woman, I'm just trying to make the best of the shitty deal I was given and didn't ask for. I'd much rather have been content to continue with the body and genitals I was born with, but that was causing me massive depression and I don't think I could have carried on that way for much longer. I'm now a much happier and confident person and i don't believe I'm hurting anyone else by living the way i choose to.
The repulsive individuals mentioned earlier in this thread are a tiny minority of entitled, possibly criminal creeps, who in no way represent the vast majority of transwomen and I question the fact that they are even trans themselves.
The problem is that the 'trans exclusionary radical feminists' or TERF's want to tar every transwoman with the same brush, and that is neither fair nor correct. I simply want to live my life in peace, without the constant barrage of anti-trans misinformation and propaganda that is circulated by certain sections of the media and by TERF's themselves.
The flags flown at Bootle and Sefton town halls at the request of 'Standing for women' were deliberately chosen by them as an offensive 'dog whistle' designed to offend and denigrate transwomen. There is already an official flag that could have been flown instead, but 'Standing for women' deliberately chose to ignore that fact in order to be as offensive as possible to transwomen whilst going largely undetected by the public at large.
It was a vile attack on people who are already the victims of irrational hate by some bigoted and ignorant elements of society, and the council were right to remove it.
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"My take is that trans people deserve to live their best lives free of discrimination and abuse and in possession of full civil rights. But I also believe that transwomen are biologically male and that it's not physically possible to change sex.
That makes me a transphobe apparently.
Transwomen are biologically male, and no, it's not physically possible to change your biological sex, however many people are confusing sex with gender and it is absolutely possible for the gender you feel yourself to be, not to match the sex you were born.
I'm a post-op transwomen who has had surgical intervention to align my body more with how I feel in my mind. I also take oestrogen to enhance the effects of the surgery.
I'm not claiming to be a cis woman, I'm just trying to make the best of the shitty deal I was given and didn't ask for. I'd much rather have been content to continue with the body and genitals I was born with, but that was causing me massive depression and I don't think I could have carried on that way for much longer. I'm now a much happier and confident person and i don't believe I'm hurting anyone else by living the way i choose to.
The repulsive individuals mentioned earlier in this thread are a tiny minority of entitled, possibly criminal creeps, who in no way represent the vast majority of transwomen and I question the fact that they are even trans themselves.
The problem is that the 'trans exclusionary radical feminists' or TERF's want to tar every transwoman with the same brush, and that is neither fair nor correct. I simply want to live my life in peace, without the constant barrage of anti-trans misinformation and propaganda that is circulated by certain sections of the media and by TERF's themselves.
The flags flown at Bootle and Sefton town halls at the request of 'Standing for women' were deliberately chosen by them as an offensive 'dog whistle' designed to offend and denigrate transwomen. There is already an official flag that could have been flown instead, but 'Standing for women' deliberately chose to ignore that fact in order to be as offensive as possible to transwomen whilst going largely undetected by the public at large.
It was a vile attack on people who are already the victims of irrational hate by some bigoted and ignorant elements of society, and the council were right to remove it.
"
What you say at the beginning is all absolutely correct and fine but what is worrying to people like me is the complete denial of reality that a lot of trans activism involves. That sex is somehow not real and fixed, that people like Alex Drummond and Pips Bunce are as much women as biological women, that all it takes to be a woman is identifying as one, that everyone has an innate gender identity etc etc.
If people feel uncomfortable and unhappy with their biological sex and wish to perform the social roles traditionally associated with the other sex, that's fine. But please don't expect people to buy into a quasi religious ideology (not that you do, but many do). |
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By *ayRosesWoman
over a year ago
Edinburgh |
"My take is that trans people deserve to live their best lives free of discrimination and abuse and in possession of full civil rights. But I also believe that transwomen are biologically male and that it's not physically possible to change sex.
That makes me a transphobe apparently.
Transwomen are biologically male, and no, it's not physically possible to change your biological sex, however many people are confusing sex with gender and it is absolutely possible for the gender you feel yourself to be, not to match the sex you were born.
I'm a post-op transwomen who has had surgical intervention to align my body more with how I feel in my mind. I also take oestrogen to enhance the effects of the surgery.
I'm not claiming to be a cis woman, I'm just trying to make the best of the shitty deal I was given and didn't ask for. I'd much rather have been content to continue with the body and genitals I was born with, but that was causing me massive depression and I don't think I could have carried on that way for much longer. I'm now a much happier and confident person and i don't believe I'm hurting anyone else by living the way i choose to.
The repulsive individuals mentioned earlier in this thread are a tiny minority of entitled, possibly criminal creeps, who in no way represent the vast majority of transwomen and I question the fact that they are even trans themselves.
The problem is that the 'trans exclusionary radical feminists' or TERF's want to tar every transwoman with the same brush, and that is neither fair nor correct. I simply want to live my life in peace, without the constant barrage of anti-trans misinformation and propaganda that is circulated by certain sections of the media and by TERF's themselves.
The flags flown at Bootle and Sefton town halls at the request of 'Standing for women' were deliberately chosen by them as an offensive 'dog whistle' designed to offend and denigrate transwomen. There is already an official flag that could have been flown instead, but 'Standing for women' deliberately chose to ignore that fact in order to be as offensive as possible to transwomen whilst going largely undetected by the public at large.
It was a vile attack on people who are already the victims of irrational hate by some bigoted and ignorant elements of society, and the council were right to remove it.
"
The conflagration of sex and gender is at the root of the issue. Very few people would argue that myra hindley represented women, and to the best of my knowledge, very few people would think that Karen White represents trans people. And if they did, they would be bigots and wrong. What she does represent is the risks that come with the creeping replacement of sex with gender identity. Not a protected characteristic under the Equalities Act whatever some people might state. And one which is being done to women whether we want it or not.
I don't have a gender identity, I reject all forms of stereotypical representation forced upon me by a patriarchal society. I refuse to conform. What I have is a sex.
I have nothing but respect for you and others who go through what you do. No-one would chose that path unless they had to, I'm sure.
I have no respect for people who think that they can steamroller everything that's been fought for by women of past generations. Who think that putting on a dress and carrying a "kill the terfs" banner(recognised in parliament as hate speech, but not recorded as a hate crime because misogyny doesn't count) makes them a woman.
Yes, the flag was deliberately provocative, I have little doubt of that. Intended to provoke debate, which it has done.
|
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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago
|
"My take is that trans people deserve to live their best lives free of discrimination and abuse and in possession of full civil rights. But I also believe that transwomen are biologically male and that it's not physically possible to change sex.
That makes me a transphobe apparently.
Transwomen are biologically male, and no, it's not physically possible to change your biological sex, however many people are confusing sex with gender and it is absolutely possible for the gender you feel yourself to be, not to match the sex you were born.
I'm a post-op transwomen who has had surgical intervention to align my body more with how I feel in my mind. I also take oestrogen to enhance the effects of the surgery.
I'm not claiming to be a cis woman, I'm just trying to make the best of the shitty deal I was given and didn't ask for. I'd much rather have been content to continue with the body and genitals I was born with, but that was causing me massive depression and I don't think I could have carried on that way for much longer. I'm now a much happier and confident person and i don't believe I'm hurting anyone else by living the way i choose to.
The repulsive individuals mentioned earlier in this thread are a tiny minority of entitled, possibly criminal creeps, who in no way represent the vast majority of transwomen and I question the fact that they are even trans themselves.
The problem is that the 'trans exclusionary radical feminists' or TERF's want to tar every transwoman with the same brush, and that is neither fair nor correct. I simply want to live my life in peace, without the constant barrage of anti-trans misinformation and propaganda that is circulated by certain sections of the media and by TERF's themselves.
The flags flown at Bootle and Sefton town halls at the request of 'Standing for women' were deliberately chosen by them as an offensive 'dog whistle' designed to offend and denigrate transwomen. There is already an official flag that could have been flown instead, but 'Standing for women' deliberately chose to ignore that fact in order to be as offensive as possible to transwomen whilst going largely undetected by the public at large.
It was a vile attack on people who are already the victims of irrational hate by some bigoted and ignorant elements of society, and the council were right to remove it.
The conflagration of sex and gender is at the root of the issue. Very few people would argue that myra hindley represented women, and to the best of my knowledge, very few people would think that Karen White represents trans people. And if they did, they would be bigots and wrong. What she does represent is the risks that come with the creeping replacement of sex with gender identity. Not a protected characteristic under the Equalities Act whatever some people might state. And one which is being done to women whether we want it or not.
I don't have a gender identity, I reject all forms of stereotypical representation forced upon me by a patriarchal society. I refuse to conform. What I have is a sex.
I have nothing but respect for you and others who go through what you do. No-one would chose that path unless they had to, I'm sure.
I have no respect for people who think that they can steamroller everything that's been fought for by women of past generations. Who think that putting on a dress and carrying a "kill the terfs" banner(recognised in parliament as hate speech, but not recorded as a hate crime because misogyny doesn't count) makes them a woman.
Yes, the flag was deliberately provocative, I have little doubt of that. Intended to provoke debate, which it has done.
"
|
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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago
|
Jay roses, if you go through you tube and look for Blaire White or Rose of Dawn, they have PLENTY to say about johnathon(Jessica) yaniv. No, I'm not going to apologise for saying there birth name, as yaniv is not trans. What yaniv is doing is setting back trans rights in Canada by maybe 20 years. |
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By *ayRosesWoman
over a year ago
Edinburgh |
"Jay roses, if you go through you tube and look for Blaire White or Rose of Dawn, they have PLENTY to say about johnathon(Jessica) yaniv. No, I'm not going to apologise for saying there birth name, as yaniv is not trans. What yaniv is doing is setting back trans rights in Canada by maybe 20 years."
I agree with you totally, yaniv is a repugnant human being, whose actions continue to set trans right back decades, and caused untold hurt to many. Trust me, I do read both sides of the discussion. What they are doing is taking advantage of bad legislation that allows this to happen. Put brutally, Canada has self-id, yaniv identifies as a trans women, therefore yaniv is a woman. The legislation enables people like yaniv to do that, it's the bad with the good. Personally, anyone that wants to know if ten year old girls in public looks need help inserting tampons shouldn't be on the streets whatever their sex / gender identity. And I'm sure you agree!
The point I, and thousands of other GC women make is that unless we can have a sensible discussion about where rights and responsibilities overlap, yaniv and others will always be the ones dictating how the whole issue is perceived.
IMO, toxic masculinity is the enemy of everyone whatever their sex or gender presentation, that's what we should be fighting. |
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"Why is it offensive keen to learn? "
It's not so much that the flags themselves are offensive but the group that provided the flags have been accused multiple times if transphobia and therefore by flying their flags you are seen to support that group. The media never seems to tell the full story. |
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"The problem here is that the council used the wrong flag. There is an official International Women's Day flag that could have been used and that nobody would have had an issue with.
Instead the council chose to use a flag from a pressure group called Standing for Women which have no official affiliation to International Women's Day.
The Standing for Women group have been criticised for being transphobic in that they have controversial views on transgender women that has led to hate and violence against trans women. Whatever your own personal view on trans women, and there are differing views here, nobody would want to see trans women persecuted I would hope.
The councils negligence in this case is the real story. "
Thank God some here know what they're talking about before weighing in. |
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By *ayRosesWoman
over a year ago
Edinburgh |
"The problem here is that the council used the wrong flag. There is an official International Women's Day flag that could have been used and that nobody would have had an issue with.
Instead the council chose to use a flag from a pressure group called Standing for Women which have no official affiliation to International Women's Day.
The Standing for Women group have been criticised for being transphobic in that they have controversial views on transgender women that has led to hate and violence against trans women. Whatever your own personal view on trans women, and there are differing views here, nobody would want to see trans women persecuted I would hope.
The councils negligence in this case is the real story.
Thank God some here know what they're talking about before weighing in."
Lots do - they just have different opinions. |
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"This I really don’t get. If gender identify should define the meaning of the word and If you identify as a woman/female then the definition of the noun ‘woman’ being ‘adult human female’ surely wouldn’t offend you because that’s what you see yourself as?
It’s seems backwards to me.
I want to be different but treat me the same?
People can consider themselves to be a woman (gender, a social construct) without claiming to be female (sex, a biological description).
The intent of this flag is to say that only biology matters and that transwomen are not 'real' women. "
That is the clearest explanation I have read so far...thank you |
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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago
|
"It's certainly welcoming to see that "genital preferences are transphobic" is become the rule, rather than the exception.
Yeah, the concept of coercive r*pe is fab, isn't it? Why shouldn't lesbians accept penises into their *sex* life? Google cotton ceiling.
A woman with a penis and a beard, with no physical differences at all to a man, is still a woman. To think differently is grossly transphobic. A lesbian with a penis is still a lesbian. "
This is where I can't agree.
I refer you to the South Park episode "Mr Garrison's fancy new vagina".
Wishing doesn't make a thing so. Denying what you are and saying you're what you'd prefer to be is deluding yourself.
And just to confirm my status as a dinosaur in this modern world - no - a woman with a penis and a beard is not a woman, but is, and always will be, a man. |
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"Anyone know the facts behind this story about a flag outside Sefton council hall on Merseyside, being taken down following a complaint by an activist. Because it said ‘Woman: adult, human female’ on it. In support of international women's day. Can't be true can it?"
It was an Everton FC flag, had to come down |
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"My take is that trans people deserve to live their best lives free of discrimination and abuse and in possession of full civil rights. But I also believe that transwomen are biologically male and that it's not physically possible to change sex.
That makes me a transphobe apparently.
Transwomen are biologically male, and no, it's not physically possible to change your biological sex, however many people are confusing sex with gender and it is absolutely possible for the gender you feel yourself to be, not to match the sex you were born.
I'm a post-op transwomen who has had surgical intervention to align my body more with how I feel in my mind. I also take oestrogen to enhance the effects of the surgery.
I'm not claiming to be a cis woman, I'm just trying to make the best of the shitty deal I was given and didn't ask for. I'd much rather have been content to continue with the body and genitals I was born with, but that was causing me massive depression and I don't think I could have carried on that way for much longer. I'm now a much happier and confident person and i don't believe I'm hurting anyone else by living the way i choose to.
The repulsive individuals mentioned earlier in this thread are a tiny minority of entitled, possibly criminal creeps, who in no way represent the vast majority of transwomen and I question the fact that they are even trans themselves.
The problem is that the 'trans exclusionary radical feminists' or TERF's want to tar every transwoman with the same brush, and that is neither fair nor correct. I simply want to live my life in peace, without the constant barrage of anti-trans misinformation and propaganda that is circulated by certain sections of the media and by TERF's themselves.
The flags flown at Bootle and Sefton town halls at the request of 'Standing for women' were deliberately chosen by them as an offensive 'dog whistle' designed to offend and denigrate transwomen. There is already an official flag that could have been flown instead, but 'Standing for women' deliberately chose to ignore that fact in order to be as offensive as possible to transwomen whilst going largely undetected by the public at large.
It was a vile attack on people who are already the victims of irrational hate by some bigoted and ignorant elements of society, and the council were right to remove it.
"
A very good post. Thank you for sharing your thoughts. |
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"The problem here is that the council used the wrong flag. There is an official International Women's Day flag that could have been used and that nobody would have had an issue with.
Instead the council chose to use a flag from a pressure group called Standing for Women which have no official affiliation to International Women's Day.
The Standing for Women group have been criticised for being transphobic in that they have controversial views on transgender women that has led to hate and violence against trans women. Whatever your own personal view on trans women, and there are differing views here, nobody would want to see trans women persecuted I would hope.
The councils negligence in this case is the real story.
Thank God some here know what they're talking about before weighing in.
Lots do - they just have different opinions."
Different opinions about what? |
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By *hilloutMan
over a year ago
All over the place! Northwesr, , Southwest |
"Anyone know the facts behind this story about a flag outside Sefton council hall on Merseyside, being taken down following a complaint by an activist. Because it said ‘Woman: adult, human female’ on it. In support of international women's day. Can't be true can it?"
Clown world gone mad. Brave new World....  |
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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago
|
"Well which website?
The one who's intention you asked about.
As you started the thread I assumed you had read up on who's flag it is, if not, there is a name in the article I linked to, you will be able to google from there."
Actually, I believe Mr. 'Fandango' knows much more about this topic than he is saying here. In fact, I'm fairly certain that he was well aware of the meaning of the flag before he started this thread and is merely feigning ignorance with the sole intention of causing controversy.
I'm also pretty sure that he hoped that people who are not aware of the flags relevance to transwomen would dogpile into condemning the trans community, and to a certain extent he has succeeded in his goal.
Mr. 'Fandango' appears to have a dislike of transwomen in general and rarely misses an opportunity to denigrate the trans community or their supporters.
I'm not entirely sure why, or what his motive is though. Perhaps he was turned down by a transwoman at some point and this is his way of getting back at her? Who knows. |
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It's an intriguing incident. I wear my heart on my sleeve. I fully support the individuals right to celebrate any day they like and be whoever they want to as long as others are not deliberately excluded or persecuted. I support women, those who identify as such, those from the TV and TS communities. I just hope you all find some common ground but I know spmetimes people clash. We all clash.
Someone may find fault in my post and I don't claim to be the smartest but I care about people, deep down, I really care about people.
Don't let a flag upset your day. |
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