FabSwingers.com > Forums > The Lounge > Femininity versus artifice - kinda related to Swings thread.
Femininity versus artifice - kinda related to Swings thread.
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Hi all!
Ok - so apologies for the crap title.
Whilst having a tidy up I've been pondering Swings ‘woman’ thread - and come to the conclusion that the typically feminine trappings - hair do’s nails, makeup, hair removal etc are either very time consuming or - in the case of heels, corsets and some clothing - bloody uncomfortable often bordering on painful!
So I guess the question is - why?
I’m guessing that historically it’s because a woman’s sole purpose was seen to be attractive to a man - so women were expected to go to extreme levels of discomfort (even - in some cases - having ribs removed to allow for tighter corsets) to ‘catch’ and keep a man. Also - historically women (with the exception of the working classes) traditionally didn’t work - and so could comfortably spend hours each day on hair/makeup etc to look good for her man.
But why on earth - in 2020 - do most of us still do this to some - or a large - extent?
We supposedly have equality- yet for a typical evening out I’ll spend 1-2 hours getting ready (dependant upon whether I have my hair down or up) compared to a man’s what? 20 minutes?
I’ll then wear heels that are bloody uncomfortable to walk in after a while (even though I gave up stilettos decades ago) and clothes that usually force me to breathe in all night so I don’t look like a pregnant hippo!
Don’t get me wrong - I’m not an extreme feminist and I like to look ‘nice’ - but why is this so ingrained in me/us that if I go out in flats or without makeup that I feel I haven’t made enough effort?
Other than going back in time and shooting the inventors of heels, corsets and cosmetics - what’s the answer - and will future generations of women always feel they have to resort to artifice to look attractive?
Anyway - back to the de-cluttering. I’ll be back later to see what everyone’s thoughts are - if any!
Hugs
Peachy
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By *ng1983Couple
over a year ago
Newcastle upon tyne |
I think (and I could be wrong) that it has been so ingrained and battered into women, for so many generations, that we think to be accepted by society we have to do these things. Way back when, if a woman was different to everyone else she was a witch and was burned. And although we don't have the fear of being burned, the fear of being seen as different is very much still within us. I remember as a teenager if I had even 1 leg hair unshaven and I wore a dress it was the end of the world. We are shown these 'perfect' women in the media, in movies, shows, magazines that have perfectly sculpted faces, perfectly toned bodies and not a hair out of place. And we are brainwashed into thinking we have to do the same to be desirable. It's also been hammered into us to find a mate and get married or you'll have failed in life. For many girls and women that is the ultimate life goal. We must make ourselves pretty for the patriarchy, find a mate and marry them or we will end up lonely old spinsters.
Gem |
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I don't think we're done with equality yet, for these and other reasons. The expectations placed on us, appearance wise, are time consuming, sometimes challenging, expensive, and can be contradictory. We're vain and stupid if we do, don't care about ourselves if we don't. The idea that some of us might do it for reasons other than men seems incomprehensible to some, who continue to blather on about how we should present ourselves.
It's difficult to navigate and I don't see it getting better.
My choices about my appearance are mostly about me, although I navigate that maze same as every other woman. |
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"I think (and I could be wrong) that it has been so ingrained and battered into women, for so many generations, that we think to be accepted by society we have to do these things. Way back when, if a woman was different to everyone else she was a witch and was burned. And although we don't have the fear of being burned, the fear of being seen as different is very much still within us. I remember as a teenager if I had even 1 leg hair unshaven and I wore a dress it was the end of the world. We are shown these 'perfect' women in the media, in movies, shows, magazines that have perfectly sculpted faces, perfectly toned bodies and not a hair out of place. And we are brainwashed into thinking we have to do the same to be desirable. It's also been hammered into us to find a mate and get married or you'll have failed in life. For many girls and women that is the ultimate life goal. We must make ourselves pretty for the patriarchy, find a mate and marry them or we will end up lonely old spinsters.
Gem"
I agree - but I guess my point is that we’ve progressed so much in the last couple of generations with careers , earning potential, the choice of whether or not to be a parent (all primarily thanks to contraception) - but in the matter of ‘feminine’ appearance we’ve changed not a jot. If anything we’re expected to make more effort now than we did when I was a teen. My daughter spends ages on here eyebrows alone - and highlighting seems to be an art form for young women. We seem to be spending more and more time on these things - not less as you’d reasonably expect after generations of supposed emancipation.
So - why? |
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I think it's a capitalist form of having it all. You can be everything you want to be if you buy all this crap.
And be anyone you want to be... But consume consume consume.
I enjoy making choices about my appearance, but the "be yourself" model of appearance is still tied up in yet more products. |
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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago
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Social media is in part to blame, we have become ever more focused on looks. It's not just women who now spend inordinate amounts of time prepping and preening to look "presentable", it is increasingly a concern for young males also. The gym movement is IMO very little to do with health for many people, it's about aesthetics. |
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I mainly work with men, and in my early 20's I would wear jeans and a t shirt to fit in. In my late 20's decided that wasn't what I wanted to wear really. I will turn up to work in the most girliest dresses. Why? Because I want to it what is aesthetically pleasing to me and suits my body. Also there's nothing better than stripping down a piece of lab equipment worth an obscene amount of money and fixing it, whilst looking all girly girl, to the shock of my male colleagues. |
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You ask why it's so ingrained, the answer is in the first few paragraphs of your post .
However historically men have been caught up in peacock behaviour and I see it happening again with men nowadays.
Do women do it only to attract men of are there more complicated social pressures at work here? |
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"You ask why it's so ingrained, the answer is in the first few paragraphs of your post .
However historically men have been caught up in peacock behaviour and I see it happening again with men nowadays.
Do women do it only to attract men of are there more complicated social pressures at work here?"
Women can be our own worst enemies here, for sure. |
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"I mainly work with men, and in my early 20's I would wear jeans and a t shirt to fit in. In my late 20's decided that wasn't what I wanted to wear really. I will turn up to work in the most girliest dresses. Why? Because I want to it what is aesthetically pleasing to me and suits my body. Also there's nothing better than stripping down a piece of lab equipment worth an obscene amount of money and fixing it, whilst looking all girly girl, to the shock of my male colleagues. "
I wonder where empowerment and self expression begins and where being caught in a different sexist trap ends.
Not pointing fingers at you. I'm the same. |
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"I don't think we're done with equality yet, for these and other reasons. The expectations placed on us, appearance wise, are time consuming, sometimes challenging, expensive, and can be contradictory. We're vain and stupid if we do, don't care about ourselves if we don't. The idea that some of us might do it for reasons other than men seems incomprehensible to some, who continue to blather on about how we should present ourselves.
It's difficult to navigate and I don't see it getting better.
My choices about my appearance are mostly about me, although I navigate that maze same as every other woman."
I fully agree with the comments about being vain/stupid if we ‘overdo’ it and not caring enough if we don’t - and sadly I thing the worst critics can often be other women.
I’m mystified, though, as to why current trends like eyebrow shaping/pomading etc - and highlighting, lip plumping etc make MORE demands on women’s time and beauty bank balance?
Wouldn’t you think that - as we become more appreciated for our intelligence and personality - the expectation to ‘make an effort’ - and the time and cost that entails- would diminish? |
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As a guy about to hit 40, my preening routine has never even been 1/4 as long as it's gotten since finding fab and the clubscene... so many things I'm doing that I never used to, even for finding my wife, my wedding day etc.
I didn't trim my shoulders and chest hair, didn't get a hair cut monthly, didn't moisturise, didn't always cut my nails before going out for the evening... so many things.
Don't forget though, that so much pressure felt by women to look good comes from other women. Without resorting to the naff jokes and mens low standards, I don't need all the effort that women go to, they already look great to me most of the time. |
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It's a form of social engineering, an oppressive patriarchal society in some countries is still the norm whereby some men through positions of power be that religious or in business, politics in fact many aspects of our lives wield that power and set the agenda of what are the norms and some women comply..
Interesting article on 5 live about the increase in men wearing make up daily, I get that for some men certain skin complaints can have a debilitating affect on them but cos I'm an old git I suppose I don't get that blokes are also falling for the media and corporate bollocks that to be a success you have to all look like clones for the benefits of profiteers.. |
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"You ask why it's so ingrained, the answer is in the first few paragraphs of your post .
However historically men have been caught up in peacock behaviour and I see it happening again with men nowadays.
Do women do it only to attract men of are there more complicated social pressures at work here?"
There was an article I was reading the other day, which was saying that men are under more pressure these days to be "ripped" due to magazines like men's health. I do think men are more concerned about what they look like more these days, just walking down the aisle of boots implies this also |
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"I mainly work with men, and in my early 20's I would wear jeans and a t shirt to fit in. In my late 20's decided that wasn't what I wanted to wear really. I will turn up to work in the most girliest dresses. Why? Because I want to it what is aesthetically pleasing to me and suits my body. Also there's nothing better than stripping down a piece of lab equipment worth an obscene amount of money and fixing it, whilst looking all girly girl, to the shock of my male colleagues.
I wonder where empowerment and self expression begins and where being caught in a different sexist trap ends.
Not pointing fingers at you. I'm the same. "
It's a mine field and I don't know the answer. I do public engagement with work, and being a scientist means kids in particular tend to think men in white coats. So if I'm going out I make extra effort to look feminine, to debunk that stereotype |
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"I’m mystified, though, as to why current trends like eyebrow shaping/pomading etc - and highlighting, lip plumping etc make MORE demands on women’s time and beauty bank balance?
"
Is this the modern version of aristocratic ladies, and families in general, (e.g Downton) choosing to make more and more artificial work for themselves when they have the spare time to fill? People half more spare time than ever, so need to be seen to / feel like they are actually really busy when they needn't be?
All that beauty shit is the same as declaring you need three maids to help you dress and have 6 or more formal dining occasions every day? |
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"You ask why it's so ingrained, the answer is in the first few paragraphs of your post .
However historically men have been caught up in peacock behaviour and I see it happening again with men nowadays.
Do women do it only to attract men of are there more complicated social pressures at work here?"
I think I’m questioning why - generations later - we STILL do it - and arguably to an even greater extent.
I’m not sure what percentage of that is the expectation/pressure we place upon ourselves and other women - and what comes from men.
I’d be curious to know what men feel on the topic. Do most expect us to spend time, effort and money on hair, nails, makeup, heels etc - or are they just as happy when we’re ‘au naturale’? |
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"I don't think we're done with equality yet, for these and other reasons. The expectations placed on us, appearance wise, are time consuming, sometimes challenging, expensive, and can be contradictory. We're vain and stupid if we do, don't care about ourselves if we don't. The idea that some of us might do it for reasons other than men seems incomprehensible to some, who continue to blather on about how we should present ourselves.
It's difficult to navigate and I don't see it getting better.
My choices about my appearance are mostly about me, although I navigate that maze same as every other woman.
I fully agree with the comments about being vain/stupid if we ‘overdo’ it and not caring enough if we don’t - and sadly I thing the worst critics can often be other women.
I’m mystified, though, as to why current trends like eyebrow shaping/pomading etc - and highlighting, lip plumping etc make MORE demands on women’s time and beauty bank balance?
Wouldn’t you think that - as we become more appreciated for our intelligence and personality - the expectation to ‘make an effort’ - and the time and cost that entails- would diminish? "
Lots of men are being caught up in this too now. I'm looking at this another way. Rather than the pressure on women being reduced it is now being applied to all genders. This is what makes me believe that women have not been doing these things solely to please men. |
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"I’d be curious to know what men feel on the topic. Do most expect us to spend time, effort and money on hair, nails, makeup, heels etc - or are they just as happy when we’re ‘au naturale’? "
I think the true answer here is, on average, the "au naturale" look that only takes half an hour, rather than truely nothing which is likely to result in comments like "Wow, you look terrible, you should have called in sick today" |
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I can only speak from my limited experience, based on the various people that make up my social circle. It seems to me that women judge other women far more than men do. It's easy to point the historical finger (because it's entirely accurate), but today the pressures placed on women to look a certain way don't necessarily come from men. The need to compete in the social media arena is probably the biggest pressure on young people when it comes to their looks. For slightly older people who were already adults when that tech arrived, it's the judgements of your peers that usually weigh the heaviest. Of course I could be wrong. This is just what I've observed in the people I know. |
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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago
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"I’d be curious to know what men feel on the topic. Do most expect us to spend time, effort and money on hair, nails, makeup, heels etc - or are they just as happy when we’re ‘au naturale’? "
It does depend on circumstances, some of the best sexiest encounters have been with a slightly disheveled 'au naturale' woman. But if a woman is going out in public, I think that they are always comparing themselves against every other woman in the room and quite harshly too. Probably due in part to the advertisers successfully marketing an 'ideal woman' but also where men compete on strength, loudness, intellect, or best fart! Women compete on fashion and style. |
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By *rixiepeepWoman
over a year ago
over the hill / chatsworth |
So my question would be how do men feel about woman who would turn up as if they are on a shopping date flats or two are, me and and a t-shirt, no makeup, hair just tidy. Be honest men please |
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By *essie.Woman
over a year ago
Serendipity |
I rarely wear any make up , maybe I should now I’m past 50. I have good skin so don’t think it’s a necessity.
I like to dress up for sex, that’s just something I enjoy for me - rather than for the other person. |
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"So my question would be how do men feel about woman who would turn up as if they are on a shopping date flats or two are, me and and a t-shirt, no makeup, hair just tidy. Be honest men please"
No make up or only half an hours worth of makeup? you know... "no makeup"... |
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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago
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Some interesting points of view. Thousands of years of patriarchy probably is the main reason behind women feeling they have to conform to a particular female standard. But then you only have to visit a gym to see that men are trying to achieve a body they think is attractive to women.
Whether it's dressing up or building muscle, it comes down to how you feel about yourself, and if it makes you feel good then do it. |
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"Whether it's dressing up or building muscle, it comes down to how you feel about yourself, and if it makes you feel good then do it."
Eh, but even then you should be thinking about WHY it makes you feel good. If it's from complying with society, feeling like you fit in... it can make you happier on the surface, but it's a pretty shitty reason really. |
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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago
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I don't really do much with my hair and face when I go out so apart from a bath and figuring out what I am gonna wear, I usu take less time faffing about than a bloke would |
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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago
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"Whether it's dressing up or building muscle, it comes down to how you feel about yourself, and if it makes you feel good then do it.
Eh, but even then you should be thinking about WHY it makes you feel good. If it's from complying with society, feeling like you fit in... it can make you happier on the surface, but it's a pretty shitty reason really."
But do you really need to worry about why that much? People comply with society in order to fit in, to be accepted, to make a living, to find a mate. That's what it is to live in society. |
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By *ng1983Couple
over a year ago
Newcastle upon tyne |
I blame the media and the advertising companies. For so long they have homed in on the securities of women. How many magazines tell you how to lose weight? Or how to wear your hair? How many media outlets have shamed female celebrities for not 'bouncing back' after bringing life into the world? How many shops have advertised the 'little black dress' for occasions and the diet tips that come with it? How many brands of pointless feminine hygiene products are marketed to help your vagina smell fresh? Social media certainly plays a part, as do filters that are easily accessible for photos. Companies have made making money out of women's insecurity an art. And yes, men are totally affected too. As women are becoming more and more aware of the body positivity movement, the media and advertising industry are now targeting men. |
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"I mainly work with men, and in my early 20's I would wear jeans and a t shirt to fit in. In my late 20's decided that wasn't what I wanted to wear really. I will turn up to work in the most girliest dresses. Why? Because I want to it what is aesthetically pleasing to me and suits my body. Also there's nothing better than stripping down a piece of lab equipment worth an obscene amount of money and fixing it, whilst looking all girly girl, to the shock of my male colleagues.
I wonder where empowerment and self expression begins and where being caught in a different sexist trap ends.
Not pointing fingers at you. I'm the same.
It's a mine field and I don't know the answer. I do public engagement with work, and being a scientist means kids in particular tend to think men in white coats. So if I'm going out I make extra effort to look feminine, to debunk that stereotype"
Absolutely competing pressures and different battles to fight. It's exhausting. |
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By *mmmMaybeCouple
over a year ago
West Wales |
"So my question would be how do men feel about woman who would turn up as if they are on a shopping date flats or two are, me and and a t-shirt, no makeup, hair just tidy. Be honest men please
No make up or only half an hours worth of makeup? you know... "no makeup"..."
H rarely wears makeup full stop. She’ll put a light amount on if we are going somewhere spesh. But we often go down the pub & she’ll have none on.
S |
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"I don't think we're done with equality yet, for these and other reasons. The expectations placed on us, appearance wise, are time consuming, sometimes challenging, expensive, and can be contradictory. We're vain and stupid if we do, don't care about ourselves if we don't. The idea that some of us might do it for reasons other than men seems incomprehensible to some, who continue to blather on about how we should present ourselves.
It's difficult to navigate and I don't see it getting better.
My choices about my appearance are mostly about me, although I navigate that maze same as every other woman.
I fully agree with the comments about being vain/stupid if we ‘overdo’ it and not caring enough if we don’t - and sadly I thing the worst critics can often be other women.
I’m mystified, though, as to why current trends like eyebrow shaping/pomading etc - and highlighting, lip plumping etc make MORE demands on women’s time and beauty bank balance?
Wouldn’t you think that - as we become more appreciated for our intelligence and personality - the expectation to ‘make an effort’ - and the time and cost that entails- would diminish? "
You would think. I suspect there's still a lot of work, self and cultural examination, etc to be done. |
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"So my question would be how do men feel about woman who would turn up as if they are on a shopping date flats or two are, me and and a t-shirt, no makeup, hair just tidy. Be honest men please
No make up or only half an hours worth of makeup? you know... "no makeup"...
H rarely wears makeup full stop. She’ll put a light amount on if we are going somewhere spesh. But we often go down the pub & she’ll have none on.
S"
I tend to vary wildly between everything and nothing. If anyone is offended that I'm grocery shopping or in a pub with a bare face, they can sod off.
And gym makeup is really taking off. Ugh why. |
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"But do you really need to worry about why that much? People comply with society in order to fit in, to be accepted, to make a living, to find a mate. That's what it is to live in society."
"Worrying about it" is what had made homosexuality legal. Social progress is typically a good thing I'd posit. |
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By *ara JTV/TS
over a year ago
Bristol East |
Heels were invented by men for men.
The trend started in Egypt and became a status symbol of a man's wealth.
Arrived in this country circa 16th century.
It was about 100 years before women started wearing heels.
The male fashion faded but the female fashion continues.
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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago
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Women like it complicated, my wife will change her knickers if she puts a different dress on, even when nobody is going to see them.
Reality is to impress a man
'turn up naked, bring beer' is all you need to know  |
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"But do you really need to worry about why that much? People comply with society in order to fit in, to be accepted, to make a living, to find a mate. That's what it is to live in society.
"Worrying about it" is what had made homosexuality legal. Social progress is typically a good thing I'd posit."
How can we push, how far, what social consequences will follow?
How can we let people be themselves, not constrained by accidents of birth? |
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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago
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From my perspective I think many of the causes have already been mentioned, historical and continuing patriarchal oppression, biological factors into our genetic coding through evolution, cultural and societal norms, un conscious assumptions and unquestioned beliefs that guide our daily behaviour and habits. To challenge that as an individual is simply not possible, only together can we do it. However the mutual vulnerability, emotional competence and inquiry skills needed to effect such a transformation are lacking.
I feel embarrassed and ashamed reflecting on how I continue to act in away that continues to perpetuate the assumptions. Even though I try not to U continually fall foul of my own assumptions and learned behaviour.
This site has probably made me even more conscious of trying to look more physically attractive and I know I feel attracted to certain looks. How the fuck do you stop that? |
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"Women like it complicated, my wife will change her knickers if she puts a different dress on, even when nobody is going to see them.
Reality is to impress a man
'turn up naked, bring beer' is all you need to know "
tongue in cheek or otherwise a really detest these generalisations |
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"But do you really need to worry about why that much? People comply with society in order to fit in, to be accepted, to make a living, to find a mate. That's what it is to live in society.
"Worrying about it" is what had made homosexuality legal. Social progress is typically a good thing I'd posit.
How can we push, how far, what social consequences will follow?
How can we let people be themselves, not constrained by accidents of birth?"
No one can ever evert just "be themselves". Everyone is a product of nature and nuture, and are a large percentage of the society in which they are created. So you can't remove social pressures from someones being, you can only hope to try to improve it, whilst acknowledging that your own judgement on what an improvement is is still massively based on your own make up from the current society.. so you can never actually escape, it doesn't make sense as a concept.
Or... something. |
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"But do you really need to worry about why that much? People comply with society in order to fit in, to be accepted, to make a living, to find a mate. That's what it is to live in society.
"Worrying about it" is what had made homosexuality legal. Social progress is typically a good thing I'd posit.
How can we push, how far, what social consequences will follow?
How can we let people be themselves, not constrained by accidents of birth?
No one can ever evert just "be themselves". Everyone is a product of nature and nuture, and are a large percentage of the society in which they are created. So you can't remove social pressures from someones being, you can only hope to try to improve it, whilst acknowledging that your own judgement on what an improvement is is still massively based on your own make up from the current society.. so you can never actually escape, it doesn't make sense as a concept.
Or... something."
Oh I know. Identity and context are inextricably intertwined and all of that.
But shades of grey. Somewhere between you have penis you hunt, and self actualisation (however mythical that may be in practice). |
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Corsets and heals were originally for men. The shoes helped their feet stay in stirrups while on horseback and corsets provided the best back support for long hours of work.
Women stole the shoes to make them look taller/lengthen their bodies when slender bodies became the new fashion rather than big, child carrying/feeding bodies.
They stole the corsets to hold their boobs up and support the weight of their dresses. It was never about how small their waistline was.
But to answer the question, we do this because we are animals. It's the same as all other animals, one sex will 'strut' and the other will follow.
Women strut. We dress to look amazing and flash at the males. We are the peacocks shaking our feathers. |
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"So my question would be how do men feel about woman who would turn up as if they are on a shopping date flats or two are, me and and a t-shirt, no makeup, hair just tidy. Be honest men please"
Ailsa almost never wears make-up, and she hardly ever wears heels either (they hurt her feet). When we go to Pleasures she wears her slippers. Her hair hardly ever sees a brush. And yet, every single man we’ve encountered on Fab (and most of the women too), and pretty much every guy friend we’ve had for the past 24 years, have all fancied her. Being sexy comes from somewhere much deeper than make-up and clothes. |
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"Corsets and heals were originally for men. The shoes helped their feet stay in stirrups while on horseback and corsets provided the best back support for long hours of work.
Women stole the shoes to make them look taller/lengthen their bodies when slender bodies became the new fashion rather than big, child carrying/feeding bodies.
They stole the corsets to hold their boobs up and support the weight of their dresses. It was never about how small their waistline was.
But to answer the question, we do this because we are animals. It's the same as all other animals, one sex will 'strut' and the other will follow.
Women strut. We dress to look amazing and flash at the males. We are the peacocks shaking our feathers. "
But surely being human, living in advanced society, means the capacity to overcome our animal instincts.
90% of the time I want to be seen as a person, personality, strength, and intelligence. And anyone looking at my feathers, not all of which I can conceal despite best efforts, is being inappropriate. |
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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago
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I don't think it's just women though. I think there are increasing pressures on men to meet a certain standard, especially this generation. You only have to look at all the actors in Marvel/DC movies to see men are putting in work too. I watched an interview with Henry Cavill once where he said he had to stop drinking water for like 3 days at a time for topless scenes as your muscles pop more when you're dehydrated  in the past 10 years or so (in my opinion) there seems to have been increased acceptance for women's bodies but for men it seems to have gone in the opposite direction where they mostly feel they have to look like buff movie stars. I see it in almost all of my male friends who spend hours in the gym after work, count macros, drink their body weight in protein shakes trying to get them gains etc. Even here on fab, you could throw a stone and hit 5 personal trainers. Not that that's a bad thing, everyone should be invested in their health. Sorry, this post has become way more rambling that I intended  |
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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago
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I suspect the answer to this is way more complex than a simple blame it on patriarchy/womens mags/social media/insert pet hate here.
The reasons will be as varied and wide ranging as our personalities. Our behaviour has deep evolutionary roots and society has changed way way faster than evolution can keep up with over the last 12,000 years since we're left our hunter gather roots. Human behaviour ever since has been a complex mix of nature and nurture with social pressures influencing evolutionary traits. We are certainly not the only species that goes to extravagant lengths to attract a mate.
The beauty is that for everyone that insists on full make up to leave the house there'll be a guy who likes that just as others will like the 'natural' look.
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"But surely being human, living in advanced society, means the capacity to overcome our animal instincts.
90% of the time I want to be seen as a person, personality, strength, and intelligence. And anyone looking at my feathers, not all of which I can conceal despite best efforts, is being inappropriate."
At some point you've got to turn that round and revel in the fact we're human animals. When I was dating conventionally I went through so many phases of thought about the gender inequality. the power dynamics, slut vs stud etc.. and eventually ended thinking it's really quite a good thing for society, however much it can suck for everyone at times in different ways. Things should be hard to make it worthwhile.
I'd like to be a better, more successful animal, but being an animal is kinda cool. |
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"I don't think it's just women though. I think there are increasing pressures on men to meet a certain standard, especially this generation. You only have to look at all the actors in Marvel/DC movies to see men are putting in work too. I watched an interview with Henry Cavill once where he said he had to stop drinking water for like 3 days at a time for topless scenes as your muscles pop more when you're dehydrated in the past 10 years or so (in my opinion) there seems to have been increased acceptance for women's bodies but for men it seems to have gone in the opposite direction where they mostly feel they have to look like buff movie stars. I see it in almost all of my male friends who spend hours in the gym after work, count macros, drink their body weight in protein shakes trying to get them gains etc. Even here on fab, you could throw a stone and hit 5 personal trainers. Not that that's a bad thing, everyone should be invested in their health. Sorry, this post has become way more rambling that I intended "
But see also the fit not thin movement for women. |
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"Corsets and heals were originally for men. The shoes helped their feet stay in stirrups while on horseback and corsets provided the best back support for long hours of work.
Women stole the shoes to make them look taller/lengthen their bodies when slender bodies became the new fashion rather than big, child carrying/feeding bodies.
They stole the corsets to hold their boobs up and support the weight of their dresses. It was never about how small their waistline was.
But to answer the question, we do this because we are animals. It's the same as all other animals, one sex will 'strut' and the other will follow.
Women strut. We dress to look amazing and flash at the males. We are the peacocks shaking our feathers.
But surely being human, living in advanced society, means the capacity to overcome our animal instincts.
90% of the time I want to be seen as a person, personality, strength, and intelligence. And anyone looking at my feathers, not all of which I can conceal despite best efforts, is being inappropriate."
We do, unfortunately we overcome the wrong instincts. We ignore advantages and choose looks instead. We kind of failed on that one. A physical advantage won't be passed down because we would see it as a deformity and choose the physically attractive mate instead.
Humans are stupid.
As for the thing about women dressing to a standard we really do bring it on ourselves. We spend ages on hair, makeup, clothes etc. If we see a women who hasn't, we somehow get sour and start assuming she's lazy. It's a horrible cycle. |
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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago
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To be fair it could be worse. Back then women were merely seen as beautiful trinkets to adorn a man's arm. While we still like to make ourselves look good, it's acceptable to do so on our own terms these days, whether that means no make up, jeans and flats or dolled up to the nines. I feel like there's more thought into how it makes us feel about ourselves rather than doing it for others. For example when I get dressed up and beat my face for the gods for a meet yes it's partly because I want to look god for the guy I'm meeting but mostly because I just wouldn't feel comfortable if I didn't think I looked good. |
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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago
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Also with the advancement of self care and more widely accepted idea of male beauty and cosmetics there are more men, especially my age, who put just as much thought and effort into their appearance these days as women do. For example spending time maintaining fresh haircuts, choosing nice clothes. Getting ready for nights out with my male friends at uni was definitely an eye opening experience when I saw they spent just as long as me getting ready, stressing over every tiny little thing from how tight their tops were to which shoes made them look taller. I also got a lot of requests to help them apply natural looking foundation and concealer. |
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"To be fair it could be worse. Back then women were merely seen as beautiful trinkets to adorn a man's arm. While we still like to make ourselves look good, it's acceptable to do so on our own terms these days, whether that means no make up, jeans and flats or dolled up to the nines. I feel like there's more thought into how it makes us feel about ourselves rather than doing it for others. For example when I get dressed up and beat my face for the gods for a meet yes it's partly because I want to look god for the guy I'm meeting but mostly because I just wouldn't feel comfortable if I didn't think I looked good. "
Definitely! I'm not saying that things are the worst they've ever been or men don't have issues. But women seem stuck with this ridiculous cycle and it is worse for us than for men. |
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"Also with the advancement of self care and more widely accepted idea of male beauty and cosmetics there are more men, especially my age, who put just as much thought and effort into their appearance these days as women do. For example spending time maintaining fresh haircuts, choosing nice clothes. Getting ready for nights out with my male friends at uni was definitely an eye opening experience when I saw they spent just as long as me getting ready, stressing over every tiny little thing from how tight their tops were to which shoes made them look taller. I also got a lot of requests to help them apply natural looking foundation and concealer. "
I used to be covered in glitter and eyeliner, in the tightest New Look tops I could fit into. Still only spent 10 minutes on it though! |
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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago
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"To be fair it could be worse. Back then women were merely seen as beautiful trinkets to adorn a man's arm. While we still like to make ourselves look good, it's acceptable to do so on our own terms these days, whether that means no make up, jeans and flats or dolled up to the nines. I feel like there's more thought into how it makes us feel about ourselves rather than doing it for others. For example when I get dressed up and beat my face for the gods for a meet yes it's partly because I want to look god for the guy I'm meeting but mostly because I just wouldn't feel comfortable if I didn't think I looked good.
Definitely! I'm not saying that things are the worst they've ever been or men don't have issues. But women seem stuck with this ridiculous cycle and it is worse for us than for men."
I'm not sure that it is though. I think both sexes are under equal pressure. Look at shows like Love Island, TOWIE, Geordie Shore etc. Yes, they perpetuate the idea of gorgeous tiny women in bikinis but if you look at the guys they are equally primped and preened with bulging muscles, fake tan, styled hair etc. Even here on fab the forums are strewn with posts by men who are feeling incredibly self conscious about their bodies. |
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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago
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"Also with the advancement of self care and more widely accepted idea of male beauty and cosmetics there are more men, especially my age, who put just as much thought and effort into their appearance these days as women do. For example spending time maintaining fresh haircuts, choosing nice clothes. Getting ready for nights out with my male friends at uni was definitely an eye opening experience when I saw they spent just as long as me getting ready, stressing over every tiny little thing from how tight their tops were to which shoes made them look taller. I also got a lot of requests to help them apply natural looking foundation and concealer.
I used to be covered in glitter and eyeliner, in the tightest New Look tops I could fit into. Still only spent 10 minutes on it though!"
But my point was that I would spend around 2-3 hours getting ready and I thought the boys would take like 5 minutes but in reality they took just as long as me. |
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"I used to be covered in glitter and eyeliner, in the tightest New Look tops I could fit into. Still only spent 10 minutes on it though!
But my point was that I would spend around 2-3 hours getting ready and I thought the boys would take like 5 minutes but in reality they took just as long as me. "
Oh yes, I got that. I said elsewhere, I'm spending a hell of a lot longer getting ready to go to a club now than I ever had in my life. I suppose it's a bit different though than a regular night out. |
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Maybe. But the preening is newer and less complicated for men. Even just focusing on muscles, the angst around women weight lifting is headache inducing. No, I'm not immune. You want to be strong but not big. You still want to be thin omg do my biceps make me look fat. So much sexist bullshit in weight lifting for women advice. Typical starvation diets and weight lifting are bad juju. Omg you're lifting so you have a phat ass for me baby (or in the gym, men who won't let you lift in peace because omg a girl). Men who lift deal with a lot less of that shit.
Lifting for women is more niche, but it's becoming less so and there's so much bullshit tied up in it. |
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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago
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"To be fair it could be worse. Back then women were merely seen as beautiful trinkets to adorn a man's arm. While we still like to make ourselves look good, it's acceptable to do so on our own terms these days, whether that means no make up, jeans and flats or dolled up to the nines. I feel like there's more thought into how it makes us feel about ourselves rather than doing it for others. For example when I get dressed up and beat my face for the gods for a meet yes it's partly because I want to look god for the guy I'm meeting but mostly because I just wouldn't feel comfortable if I didn't think I looked good.
Definitely! I'm not saying that things are the worst they've ever been or men don't have issues. But women seem stuck with this ridiculous cycle and it is worse for us than for men.
I'm not sure that it is though. I think both sexes are under equal pressure. Look at shows like Love Island, TOWIE, Geordie Shore etc. Yes, they perpetuate the idea of gorgeous tiny women in bikinis but if you look at the guys they are equally primped and preened with bulging muscles, fake tan, styled hair etc. Even here on fab the forums are strewn with posts by men who are feeling incredibly self conscious about their bodies. "
I may feel more self conscious of my body on a place like Fab but I don’t feel the same pressure my son does or his girlfriend does. Interestingly both of them have relaxed about it more since they have been in a relationship. Although my son at 20 has just discovered the early signs of male pattern baldness that runs through both sides of his family. He is looking to start using Regaine. He still spends a lot of time on his grooming but less than he did.
My impression amongst his friends and peers is that the women are under more pressure than the men are. In my peer group the women are definitely under more pressure than the men. |
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Viewing womens preening and beauty regimes from a man's perspective and hearing what the guys I work with say to each other, many men dont seem to realise just what lengths many women feel they have to go to to look attractive to their partners and in public and that can be a big issue.
I hear so much about body hair, not having their hair done and why they dont do their make up or wear heels as much as the guy wants them to and often the men saying it make almost zero effort to look good themselves.
Some men are worse about it than others so I'm not saying all men are the same boys so dont take it personally.
Some just dont understand it can be bloody tedious, often painful (razor burn or aching legs etc) and simply eats into the amount of time a woman has spare each day to the point of waking up an extra hour or more early every day.
If some of those guys did the same thing as their partners do then they'd quickly either be more appreciative of their wife/girlfriends efforts or give much more leeway to how they look.
Also I very much agree that media plays a big part, especially the likes of insta and the influencers that live life on there 'living their best life's.
Having a view from a womans side as I do, even on a temporary basis, I appreciate much more the efforts any woman goes to look good and can completely understand not wanting to fall into that trap and just going au naturele. Also it can get bloody expensive, guys, go to a salon and ask for a full body wax price!
You quickly understand not wanting to shave every day to be hair free because of the itching all over so when you see your girls hairy legs or armpits, you totally understand why.
The women of this world, I salute you
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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago
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"My impression amongst his friends and peers is that the women are under more pressure than the men are. In my peer group the women are definitely under more pressure than the men."
Question is, where is the pressure coming from?
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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago
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"My impression amongst his friends and peers is that the women are under more pressure than the men are. In my peer group the women are definitely under more pressure than the men.
Question is, where is the pressure coming from?
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For my son’s generation I think they are bombarded with messages. They only have to mention something and their phones are picking it up and sending adverts on Instagram to them. They are continually nudging each other and being nudged themselves. That is despite in many ways being more enlightened about sexuality and more tolerant of diversity and difference than my generation. My generation and older, the unexamined assumptions and beliefs are still common and the traditional views still more prevalent. They are still also influencing the younger generations too. I think collectively we are all perpetuating that pressure and being continually nudged by those that wish to exploit it. |
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By *eliWoman
over a year ago
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Slightly tangential possibly but I do think that there's an ever increasing backlash against conforming to all the socio-cultural ideals about femininity, especially evident within my generation and younger. Look at the various movements proudly embracing things that would have been no no before - body positivity (although that's problematic at times), Januhairy... even the bare faced selfie that was/is still to some degree trending, to name but a few.
There's far more of a movement of accepting yourself as you are, of shunning uncomfortable lingerie (look at decreasing sales by particular retailers and brands that put comfort and "sexiness" at the forefront success (Fenty, Calvin Klein) and flat shoes are becoming increasingly popular. Even within the hair industry, more and more people are turning to embracing their natural hair and not trying to emulate Western beauty ideals with a good headful of extensions thrown in.
I don't really subscribe to the OP's aforementioned trappings; I do wear heels but very rarely, instead I prefer flats and shoes that allow me to move freely. I rarely wear makeup. I haven't had any work done to my face and I doubt I ever will.
I think we're far more likely to see the beauty ideals touted in the media and the extremes when out and about. I've no doubt there's an increased pressure to look a particular way (and socio-historical factors as well as increased connectivity through social media no doubt play a part in that) but I also think more and more people are embracing looking how they want to without worrying about conforming. And that's something I welcome wholeheartedly.
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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago
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"Some really interesting replies. Hopefully the discussion will continue. My first op in years so I’m pleased it’s engendered such thoughtful responses. Thank you! "
It’s a really interesting question, and I’ve enjoyed reading the replies op. X |
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By *zQTWoman
over a year ago
Somewhere |
For me it is less about being found attractive to men and more about how comfortable I am.
For instance, I don’t wear makeup or anything on a daily basis and I’m okay with that. But the second we go out or to a function I am surrounded by these skinny pretty things who have the perfect makeup and I feel like shrek amongst them. So I, in turn, dress up and do my hair and makeup and dress accordingly just to feel comfortable and not out of place.
For me it’s more about not wanting to look like death warmed up in a sea of beautiful people. Don’t really care if that leads to attracting someone else or not. |
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By *hunky GentMan
over a year ago
Maldon and Peterborough |
"For me it is less about being found attractive to men and more about how comfortable I am.
For instance, I don’t wear makeup or anything on a daily basis and I’m okay with that. But the second we go out or to a function I am surrounded by these skinny pretty things who have the perfect makeup and I feel like shrek amongst them. So I, in turn, dress up and do my hair and makeup and dress accordingly just to feel comfortable and not out of place.
For me it’s more about not wanting to look like death warmed up in a sea of beautiful people. Don’t really care if that leads to attracting someone else or not. "
You can behave. I seen you without make up and you're a very pretty lady xx |
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By *zQTWoman
over a year ago
Somewhere |
"For me it is less about being found attractive to men and more about how comfortable I am.
For instance, I don’t wear makeup or anything on a daily basis and I’m okay with that. But the second we go out or to a function I am surrounded by these skinny pretty things who have the perfect makeup and I feel like shrek amongst them. So I, in turn, dress up and do my hair and makeup and dress accordingly just to feel comfortable and not out of place.
For me it’s more about not wanting to look like death warmed up in a sea of beautiful people. Don’t really care if that leads to attracting someone else or not.
You can behave. I seen you without make up and you're a very pretty lady xx"
Which brings me to, those whose opinions matter don’t care if I dress up or not. Therefore, I feel no need to dress up to attract people  just to fit in at time |
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For me it's been an interesting and very recent development. I spent most of my life assuming that I couldn't compete so didn't bother. I began to explore makeup, initially, in search of the "polished" look that apparently conveys subconscious advantage. About three years ago.
I gave being sexually attractive one final go, because I'd given up on it. Discovered swinging. With that came more pressure to conform to convoluted beauty ideals, but also a desire to. I became interested in makeup as a hobby, unrelated to this. I also suffered an injury which took me into the gym and has kept me there, and have started caring more about the way my body moves, functions, and recovers. Future proofing.
I took advice, worried way too much about what others thought of me. But something in me blossomed and I learned to accept myself and my idiosyncrasies. To do things for myself.
I probably perform intense high maintenance femininity a lot of the time. But I do it because I enjoy it. The art, changing myself and changing masks. Taking pride in my body (although the grunting and swearing in the gym definitely isn't feminine!).
The burden on appearance is still unquestionably uneven. But I take the high maintenance version on for myself. For no one else. If you think my highlighter is icky or girls shouldn't have guns... bite me. It's my body and I'm celebrating me. |
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"Bump. Hope I didn't kill this"
Not at all!
I think most aspects have been covered/discussed to be fair. I tend to rate the success of a thread on the quality/time that people spend on their responses rather than whether it got to 175 or not!
I’m just pleased no-one felt the need to be insulting or - worse still - get the popcorn out! |
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