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Gender neutral passports
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"I can understand it. A passport is supposed to represent your identity so why should someone who doesn’t identify with being male or female have to choose one? It bugs the hell out of me every time I see mine with my married name in it as it’s no longer me. Just waiting for this Brexit shite to be over..." What's this got to do with Brexit? Change your passport if it bothers you that much? Gender is male or female - sexuality is totally different in my view | |||
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"The case is now at the court of appeal, do yo u have a view? If it passes then the impact will be huge with massive costs associated. Do you think the current system is "inherently discriminatory" as claimed? Personally I think some people have too much time on their hands (pops my tin hat on) " i do have a view but its not going to change anything so I'm not sharing  | |||
"I get it, I really do. However it's not that big of a deal when it comes down to it compared with what it will cost. If there was low impact on cost, and causes low disruption to change then it doesn't bother me. " Valid point. I wonder how much it really does cost? We do seem to pay an awful lot to get our passports renewed compared to other countries. | |||
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"Regarding costs I think it will be huge, because lots of processes and IT systems will need to change where any hold the 'sex' of a person if it became a legal entity. Plus GN toilets etc" Has any country already implemented this? I work in education and we have between 6-9 complaints each term about not having a third option in our paperwork. | |||
"I can understand it. A passport is supposed to represent your identity so why should someone who doesn’t identify with being male or female have to choose one? It bugs the hell out of me every time I see mine with my married name in it as it’s no longer me. Just waiting for this Brexit shite to be over... What's this got to do with Brexit? Change your passport if it bothers you that much? Gender is male or female - sexuality is totally different in my view" Sex is male or female surely? You don't gender an animal when it's born, you sex it. Being transgender is much more than sexuality | |||
"Has any country already implemented this? I work in education and we have between 6-9 complaints each term about not having a third option in our paperwork." I'm not sure about other countries, but out of interest are the complaints from the child or the parents? | |||
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"I can understand it. A passport is supposed to represent your identity so why should someone who doesn’t identify with being male or female have to choose one? It bugs the hell out of me every time I see mine with my married name in it as it’s no longer me. Just waiting for this Brexit shite to be over... What's this got to do with Brexit? Change your passport if it bothers you that much? Gender is male or female - sexuality is totally different in my view Sex is male or female surely? You don't gender an animal when it's born, you sex it. Being transgender is much more than sexuality " Indeed. There are 2 sexes. Gender is much broader as it is about roles in society. Which is why there can be more than 2. It gets misused in place of sex. Sexuality is about feelings toward other sexes and genders and that is a huge spectrum. Sexuality is | |||
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"I can understand it. A passport is supposed to represent your identity so why should someone who doesn’t identify with being male or female have to choose one? It bugs the hell out of me every time I see mine with my married name in it as it’s no longer me. Just waiting for this Brexit shite to be over... What's this got to do with Brexit? Change your passport if it bothers you that much? Gender is male or female - sexuality is totally different in my view Sex is male or female surely? You don't gender an animal when it's born, you sex it. Being transgender is much more than sexuality Indeed. There are 2 sexes. Gender is much broader as it is about roles in society. Which is why there can be more than 2. It gets misused in place of sex. Sexuality is about feelings toward other sexes and genders and that is a huge spectrum. Sexuality is " It should just ask for sex on the form then. Much simpler. And no yes please' answer. | |||
"Transgender people get a pretty rough deal from society. I don't think spending some money helping them feel more included is at all unreasonable. " Yes they should be I included, and at the same time realise it should be a low priority even for them, if it's not that big of a deal that it is getting changed it is equally not that big a deal that it needs to. When that money can go towards food banks, helping homeless and fixes those problems, then we should tackle what a piece of paper says. | |||
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"My only concern is maybe for those who identify as a cat where the may end up stowed with the luggage "I think it's an affront to my rights that they ask for my full name too. Before you you it they'll be putting on your DOB and assigning you a number! Communist mofo's.....! I'm a tiger and I was born free! (see previous comment) | |||
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"I self identify as a dolphin, where's my box to tick. "This statement gets less funny each time I see it because it tries to make a point and just fails hard because it doesn't fully address or understand the argument at hand. For either side of the argument/discussion. | |||
"I self identify as a dolphin, where's my box to tick.
This statement gets less funny each time I see it because it tries to make a point and just fails hard because it doesn't fully address or understand the argument at hand. For either side of the argument/discussion.". Oh yes it does, thinking your a tree does not make you a tree, thinking your a woman does not make you a woman. We have this thing called biology where we define wether your male or female or human or a tree. Nobody is against a man feeling like a woman, thinking like a woman or dressing like a woman but most of us draw the line at declaring there a woman. If we really need a box on the passport it's Male Female Other | |||
"I'm sure my first passport had a section for "identifying marks" where you put any birth marks or scare that could be used to tell who you were. They've scrapped that in favour of facial recognition either by human or machine I don't think they need gender too. If they introduced gender neutral passports on new applications or renewals only it would reduce associated costs and I can't see a problem with that. Just use name, date of birth and face." . What if you suspect them of smuggling drugs and wish to do a full body search?. Who carries it out, a man or a woman?. | |||
"I self identify as a dolphin, where's my box to tick.
This statement gets less funny each time I see it because it tries to make a point and just fails hard because it doesn't fully address or understand the argument at hand. For either side of the argument/discussion..
Oh yes it does, thinking your a tree does not make you a tree, thinking your a woman does not make you a woman.
We have this thing called biology where we define wether your male or female or human or a tree.
Nobody is against a man feeling like a woman, thinking like a woman or dressing like a woman but most of us draw the line at declaring there a woman.
If we really need a box on the passport it's
Male
Female
Other"I think that's a bit mean....  | |||
"I'm sure my first passport had a section for "identifying marks" where you put any birth marks or scare that could be used to tell who you were. They've scrapped that in favour of facial recognition either by human or machine I don't think they need gender too. If they introduced gender neutral passports on new applications or renewals only it would reduce associated costs and I can't see a problem with that. Just use name, date of birth and face.. What if you suspect them of smuggling drugs and wish to do a full body search?. Who carries it out, a man or a woman?." I If someone considers that gender is a neutral concept, does it !matter? | |||
"Your passport is almost never needed in the UK. It would be very unwise to use a gender fluid declaration should you be landing in many less enlightened countries around the world. " I would imagine individuals would decide not to travel to countries that are not so enlightened | |||
"I'm sure my first passport had a section for "identifying marks" where you put any birth marks or scare that could be used to tell who you were. They've scrapped that in favour of facial recognition either by human or machine I don't think they need gender too. If they introduced gender neutral passports on new applications or renewals only it would reduce associated costs and I can't see a problem with that. Just use name, date of birth and face.. What if you suspect them of smuggling drugs and wish to do a full body search?. Who carries it out, a man or a woman?." A gender neutral? Or maybe they, the searched, get to choose? | |||
" What if you suspect them of smuggling drugs and wish to do a full body search?. Who carries it out, a man or a woman?." This is where it can explode, there may be a need to employ GN personnel to support new procedures, who knows where it will go | |||
"I'm sure my first passport had a section for "identifying marks" where you put any birth marks or scare that could be used to tell who you were. They've scrapped that in favour of facial recognition either by human or machine I don't think they need gender too. If they introduced gender neutral passports on new applications or renewals only it would reduce associated costs and I can't see a problem with that. Just use name, date of birth and face.. What if you suspect them of smuggling drugs and wish to do a full body search?. Who carries it out, a man or a woman?. A gender neutral? Or maybe they, the searched, get to choose?" I can see an immediate problem with that. | |||
"I self identify as a dolphin, where's my box to tick.
This statement gets less funny each time I see it because it tries to make a point and just fails hard because it doesn't fully address or understand the argument at hand. For either side of the argument/discussion..
Oh yes it does, thinking your a tree does not make you a tree, thinking your a woman does not make you a woman.
We have this thing called biology where we define wether your male or female or human or a tree.
Nobody is against a man feeling like a woman, thinking like a woman or dressing like a woman but most of us draw the line at declaring there a woman.
If we really need a box on the passport it's
Male
Female
Other
I think that's a bit mean.... ". I don't know if it's mean or not but it's reality. | |||
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"I self identify as a dolphin, where's my box to tick.
This statement gets less funny each time I see it because it tries to make a point and just fails hard because it doesn't fully address or understand the argument at hand. For either side of the argument/discussion..
Oh yes it does, thinking your a tree does not make you a tree, thinking your a woman does not make you a woman.
We have this thing called biology where we define wether your male or female or human or a tree.
Nobody is against a man feeling like a woman, thinking like a woman or dressing like a woman but most of us draw the line at declaring there a woman.
If we really need a box on the passport it's
Male
Female
Other
I think that's a bit mean.... .
I don't know if it's mean or not but it's reality."I was kinda all for keeping it M/F and asking ppl to choose one (a bit like my monkey or tiger analogy earlier, it doesn't seem a top priority to me when the world has so many bigger problems). However, ppl can choose their gender nowadays and there's nothing wrong in that imho but you seem to be saying that choice is unacceptable to you? That's why I said mean, correct me if I'm wrong.... | |||
"Already issued in Australia, Canada, Argentina, Netherlands, India, New Zealand, Denmark. Some states in the US allow X on driving license and other state ID, but not on passports yet. There is much official ID in the UK that allows X (including birth certificates in the case of intersex babies) but not yet passports. One of the arguments for allowing X as a gender designator on passports is that there are people whose gender presentation (and sometimes even their genitals appearance) is indeterminate. These people do get challenged on ID checks at a disproportionately high rate, being accused of gender impersonation regardless of whether their passport is marked M or F. Sometimes ending with humiliating and emotionally violating examination of genitals by officials with no medical credentials. The intent of the X marker is to say "Look, my government recognises that my appearance may be a unreliable indication of my gender, they request that you do not challenge me on the basis of a snap judgement that i look female when my passport is marked M, or vice versa, instead they let me have a passport marked X. Gender marker is a very crude identifier anyway, merely reducing the possibility to one half (approximately) of the human race. This X marker saves wasting your valuable time on attempting unreliable identification via gender presentation. Instead please use the photograph and other biometric indicators on my passport as proof of identity. Thank you for your understanding of the legal status that my country allows me to have." Passport control officials in the UK and other countries already have to handle the X gender marker on passports from other nationalities, including from within the EU. Hence there should be zero impact in the event of the UK catching up with what appears to be a growing trend." Very informative.  | |||
"I self identify as a dolphin, where's my box to tick.
This statement gets less funny each time I see it because it tries to make a point and just fails hard because it doesn't fully address or understand the argument at hand. For either side of the argument/discussion..
Oh yes it does, thinking your a tree does not make you a tree, thinking your a woman does not make you a woman.
We have this thing called biology where we define wether your male or female or human or a tree.
Nobody is against a man feeling like a woman, thinking like a woman or dressing like a woman but most of us draw the line at declaring there a woman.
If we really need a box on the passport it's
Male
Female
Other
I think that's a bit mean.... .
I don't know if it's mean or not but it's reality.
I was kinda all for keeping it M/F and asking ppl to choose one (a bit like my monkey or tiger analogy earlier, it doesn't seem a top priority to me when the world has so many bigger problems). However, ppl can choose their gender nowadays and there's nothing wrong in that imho but you seem to be saying that choice is unacceptable to you? That's why I said mean, correct me if I'm wrong.... ". What you think does not determine your biology. I'm all for people thinking what they want to think and living how they want to live but that thinking should not overrule our understanding of biology. | |||
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"I don't see a problem with people having a gender neutral one however any costs incurred in setting up this option should be paid for by the people who apply for a general neutral one that seems only fair. " Costs are utterly insignificant compared with the change of passports from EU to UK. When amortised across the number of passports issued annually, the IT changes to allow X as an alternative to M or F would come out at sub one penny. In fact the government has already spent hundreds of times the cost in just being awkward about it. Also see my post above, every time a passport control official fucks up on a gender challenge to a non-obviously-gendered person costs shitloads of money in wasted officialdom time anyway. | |||
"I don't see a problem with people having a gender neutral one however any costs incurred in setting up this option should be paid for by the people who apply for a general neutral one that seems only fair. Costs are utterly insignificant compared with the change of passports from EU to UK. When amortised across the number of passports issued annually, the IT changes to allow X as an alternative to M or F would come out at sub one penny. In fact the government has already spent hundreds of times the cost in just being awkward about it. Also see my post above, every time a passport control official fucks up on a gender challenge to a non-obviously-gendered person costs shitloads of money in wasted officialdom time anyway." Awkward about it, there’s no clear guidelines on these extra genders, they change from person to person I’ve friends an people I met who are non binary and even they could never give me a solid answer. I’ve zero issue with people living their lives the way they want to, have at it but without clear lines in place how is anyone meant to know who or what people identify as. Yes a third X box would in theory be the way forward, there would be another group who says they aren’t being included. | |||
"Your passport is almost never needed in the UK. It would be very unwise to use a gender fluid declaration should you be landing in many less enlightened countries around the world. I would imagine individuals would decide not to travel to countries that are not so enlightened " They dont often know the route the plane will take, and can never predict if a plane has a fault and needs to land for repairs in a country where gender X is not well received. | |||
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"Your passport is almost never needed in the UK. It would be very unwise to use a gender fluid declaration should you be landing in many less enlightened countries around the world. " Very good point!! | |||
"Your passport is almost never needed in the UK. It would be very unwise to use a gender fluid declaration should you be landing in many less enlightened countries around the world. Very good point!! " It's not really about a gender fluid declaration, it's for the benefit of people who get damned if they declare as male and damned if they declare as female. Often issues surrounding gender identity are concerned with self-identification - but the passport issue is all about objective identification by others. About being forced to carry an identity document that DOES NOT reflect your externally visible image, and actually causes you to be misidentified. And yes, those who need this are already incredibly careful about what countries they visit. | |||
"I can understand it. A passport is supposed to represent your identity so why should someone who doesn’t identify with being male or female have to choose one? It bugs the hell out of me every time I see mine with my married name in it as it’s no longer me. Just waiting for this Brexit shite to be over... What's this got to do with Brexit? Change your passport if it bothers you that much? Gender is male or female - sexuality is totally different in my view Sex is male or female surely? You don't gender an animal when it's born, you sex it. Being transgender is much more than sexuality Indeed. There are 2 sexes. Gender is much broader as it is about roles in society. Which is why there can be more than 2. It gets misused in place of sex. Sexuality is about feelings toward other sexes and genders and that is a huge spectrum. Sexuality is It should just ask for sex on the form then. Much simpler. And no yes please' answer. " Tried having sex on the form but the ink smudged. | |||
"Your passport is almost never needed in the UK. It would be very unwise to use a gender fluid declaration should you be landing in many less enlightened countries around the world. Very good point!! It's not really about a gender fluid declaration, it's for the benefit of people who get damned if they declare as male and damned if they declare as female. Often issues surrounding gender identity are concerned with self-identification - but the passport issue is all about objective identification by others. About being forced to carry an identity document that DOES NOT reflect your externally visible image, and actually causes you to be misidentified. And yes, those who need this are already incredibly careful about what countries they visit." Don't know why you felt the need for the long paragraph. 'Good point' was about visiting dodgy countries. And I don't just mean Dubai or Syria. | |||
"your born male or female very simple your a fucking man or a women end of these numptyies need get a fucking life cos most people are fucked off hearing about them whine about this and that grow up and get a life" What a kind and compassionate soul you are. I hope you never have a child who experiences gender dysphoria. Because when that child is tired and confused and conflicted and broken and suicidal "quit whining and get a fucking life" will sort them right out  | |||
"Your passport is almost never needed in the UK. It would be very unwise to use a gender fluid declaration should you be landing in many less enlightened countries around the world. Very good point!! It's not really about a gender fluid declaration, it's for the benefit of people who get damned if they declare as male and damned if they declare as female. Often issues surrounding gender identity are concerned with self-identification - but the passport issue is all about objective identification by others. About being forced to carry an identity document that DOES NOT reflect your externally visible image, and actually causes you to be misidentified. And yes, those who need this are already incredibly careful about what countries they visit. Don't know why you felt the need for the long paragraph. 'Good point' was about visiting dodgy countries. And I don't just mean Dubai or Syria." Apologies for the long paragraph, i do tend to rattle on more than i should
And yes you are spot on about dodgy countries. I have all the southern states of the US on my avoid list, certainly at least while the current administration is in place over there. | |||
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"Your passport is almost never needed in the UK. It would be very unwise to use a gender fluid declaration should you be landing in many less enlightened countries around the world. Very good point!! It's not really about a gender fluid declaration, it's for the benefit of people who get damned if they declare as male and damned if they declare as female. Often issues surrounding gender identity are concerned with self-identification - but the passport issue is all about objective identification by others. About being forced to carry an identity document that DOES NOT reflect your externally visible image, and actually causes you to be misidentified. And yes, those who need this are already incredibly careful about what countries they visit. Don't know why you felt the need for the long paragraph. 'Good point' was about visiting dodgy countries. And I don't just mean Dubai or Syria. Apologies for the long paragraph, i do tend to rattle on more than i should
And yes you are spot on about dodgy countries. I have all the southern states of the US on my avoid list, certainly at least while the current administration is in place over there."No don't apologise Polly, I like your posts. Always informative and interesting.
Thought I'd offended you that was all. Like you were ranting at me.
We are actually thinking the same thing! America is ridiculously backwards. X | |||
"I have a passport. It gets me to foreign countries and back.. apart from the passport control no bugger ever sees it.. as long as you look like your picture then all is ok... If you are Barbie on Monday, Ken on Tuesday then have two bloody passports " You are not allowed to have two passports... I am very happy for you that your appearance is sufficiently masculine that it has an obvious match to the M marker on your passport. I too am lucky enough that provided i take care what clothes i wear, i can generally pass for the gender marked in my passport. However the people hoping to benefit from a change in the UK passport issuing rules are not you or i, but those for whom being forced to use gendered ID documents can be a genuinely harmful experience. I have met people that even i would be unable to easily catagorise as M or F. I know people where a genital examination would be inconclusive. There are many for whom the results of a chromosome test would be at odds with their appearance. These are the ones for whom an X marker might be a godsend. And yes they are only a comparatively tiny number of the population. But try imagining that you were one of these people, would you be happy to just suck it up and get stopped every time you tried to go through passport control? | |||
"Your passport is almost never needed in the UK. It would be very unwise to use a gender fluid declaration should you be landing in many less enlightened countries around the world. Very good point!! It's not really about a gender fluid declaration, it's for the benefit of people who get damned if they declare as male and damned if they declare as female. Often issues surrounding gender identity are concerned with self-identification - but the passport issue is all about objective identification by others. About being forced to carry an identity document that DOES NOT reflect your externally visible image, and actually causes you to be misidentified. And yes, those who need this are already incredibly careful about what countries they visit. Don't know why you felt the need for the long paragraph. 'Good point' was about visiting dodgy countries. And I don't just mean Dubai or Syria. Apologies for the long paragraph, i do tend to rattle on more than i should
And yes you are spot on about dodgy countries. I have all the southern states of the US on my avoid list, certainly at least while the current administration is in place over there.
No don't apologise Polly, I like your posts. Always informative and interesting.
Thought I'd offended you that was all. Like you were ranting at me.
We are actually thinking the same thing! America is ridiculously backwards. X"Lol, never ranting at you Mavis! I enjoy your posts also, you often manage to say a lot with few words (unlike moi  ) and have intelligent opinions. I especially like the way you occasionally toss a hand grenade into the conversation and stir things up... | |||
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"What happens when you go to a country that doesn't recognise anything other than male or female?" Sadly there are some countries that still barely recognise women | |||
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"I'm sure my first passport had a section for "identifying marks" where you put any birth marks or scare that could be used to tell who you were. They've scrapped that in favour of facial recognition either by human or machine I don't think they need gender too. If they introduced gender neutral passports on new applications or renewals only it would reduce associated costs and I can't see a problem with that. Just use name, date of birth and face.. What if you suspect them of smuggling drugs and wish to do a full body search?. Who carries it out, a man or a woman?." My passport says Male. When I set the alarms off at security in an airport and need to be frisked, one of two things happens: - I am offered the choice of male or female - My passport is examined and a male does it. I honestly don't care who does it - I just want to get through and catch my plane. | |||
"How is it a "massive cost"? Surely it's just a simple design change for passports yet to be produced." I thought that. | |||
"What happens when you go to a country that doesn't recognise anything other than male or female?" It is the passport that is recognised by the state you are entering. "Her Britannic Majesty's Secretary of State requests and requires in the Name of Her Majesty all those whom it may concern to allow the bearer to pass freely without let or hindrance . . ." No country refuses you entry because of, say, the colour of your skin, your gender etc. | |||
"Your passport is almost never needed in the UK. It would be very unwise to use a gender fluid declaration should you be landing in many less enlightened countries around the world. Very good point!! It's not really about a gender fluid declaration, it's for the benefit of people who get damned if they declare as male and damned if they declare as female. Often issues surrounding gender identity are concerned with self-identification - but the passport issue is all about objective identification by others. About being forced to carry an identity document that DOES NOT reflect your externally visible image, and actually causes you to be misidentified. And yes, those who need this are already incredibly careful about what countries they visit. Don't know why you felt the need for the long paragraph. 'Good point' was about visiting dodgy countries. And I don't just mean Dubai or Syria. Apologies for the long paragraph, i do tend to rattle on more than i should
And yes you are spot on about dodgy countries. I have all the southern states of the US on my avoid list, certainly at least while the current administration is in place over there.
No don't apologise Polly, I like your posts. Always informative and interesting.
Thought I'd offended you that was all. Like you were ranting at me.
We are actually thinking the same thing! America is ridiculously backwards. X
Lol, never ranting at you Mavis! I enjoy your posts also, you often manage to say a lot with few words (unlike moi ) and have intelligent opinions. I especially like the way you occasionally toss a hand grenade into the conversation and stir things up..."You're a lovely woman Polly. Don't ever let anyone dim your shine. | |||
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"The case is now at the court of appeal, do yo u have a view? If it passes then the impact will be huge with massive costs associated. Do you think the current system is "inherently discriminatory" as claimed? Personally I think some people have too much time on their hands (pops my tin hat on) " Is there room under that tin hat for two? I quite agree. The gender issue is going to weird places these days, and I guess I'm just too old to properly understand and adapt, but I recently was involved in a bit of a "debate" with a group on twitter who insist that gender is a matter of choice these days. WTF? | |||
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"Are there any gender neutral people? Not those who choose to identify as such, but physically/ biologically gender neutral? " Yes. Look up "intersex" on wikipedia. There are a whole host of genetic and developmental conditions that can result in genitals and/or body that does not conform to "normal" male or female appearance. Estimates for rate of occurrence vary, but it is basically agreed that at least 1 in 2000 have some form of intersex condition. So 30 thousand people or more in the UK alone? Everybody knows a few "women" with masculine traits, and a few "men" with feminine traits. And we very seldom see what is going on inside other people's knickers... | |||
"Just as there are gender neutral toilets, should there be gender neutral queues at passport control ?" Why? I don't recall seeing separate queues for men and women? The only, ONLY, reason for some people desiring an X marker on their passport is to get an ID statement that declares to immigration officials "Hey, you might not be able to decide on a quick look whether this person is male or female, please don't take them into a small room and demand to look at their genitals, they are not a woman travelling with a male passport, or a man travelling with a female passport, they are a person of indeterminate gender appearance travelling with a passport that declares they have an indeterminate gender appearance. So just let go of the sex thing right, look at the photo instead, use fingerprints or retina scans or whatever other digital biometrics are built into the passport. This is a real person, just not a manly man or a womanly woman. Signed Queen Liz II. PS, it doesn't mean that they are homosexual or transgender or whatever your local jurisdiction might decide is a perversion, it just means that your M/F detector might give a wonky result, they were born this way and it's not an offence against your personal beliefs." | |||
"Just as there are gender neutral toilets, should there be gender neutral queues at passport control ?" I've never seen people queuing by gender to get their passport checked. Have you? | |||
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"Surely a photo is fine . As long as it looks like the person .. why worry " Photo and biometrics is fine. Gender is redundant now | |||
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"I think the world's gone fucking mad!! " Explain? | |||
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"Its a big costly change youre going from 8mb to store every single person in the countries gender, to 135mb. Binary is very easy to use and work with, its super fast to store as a 1 or 0, it takes up tiny amout of ram, you can query it really really fast. Moving to "m, f, n" will require huge amounts of work, and cause bugs for years as the police, insurance companies, banks have to roll it out. Also every system that has to use it will slow down, it just takes more time to query." You made that up didn't you. | |||
"The case is now at the court of appeal, do yo u have a view? If it passes then the impact will be huge with massive costs associated. Do you think the current system is "inherently discriminatory" as claimed? Personally I think some people have too much time on their hands (pops my tin hat on) " The Gender Reform had nothing to do with Gender Neutral passports. The reason conservative had a discussion (Which I wrote my part towards Theresa), was nothing to do with Gender Neutral. The way the passport office works at the moment proves to be intimidating, stressful and complicated for a trans inididuval to get ID (I should know, 12 years later and I'm only JUST now getting my passport in female). The Gender Recognition panel: another obstacle that proves challenging and dehumanising to trans individuals. This reform will allow hearings to be alot more simple - and yes, it will include the option for binary individuals (Please note, binary and gender neutral people will NOT be able to change their birth certificates. This was in the Reform. It was a discussion that hasn't even been approved yet. The topic mainly was focused on Trans people) This was a much bigger picture than just "gender natural". It will give people in a transition to be able to get the right documentation without the years of distress and embarrassment jumping backwards. I wasted so much time of my life trying to "PROVE" who I was to a stupid committee that I lost out on travelling at a young age. This isn't a issue you have had to deal with and frankly, your opinion is just that. It's not your life, it's not your challenge therefore, leave it to the people who genuinely need this change. God forbid any young trans people have to ever encounter what myself and many others have had too over the years.Let me repeat 12 YEARS its taken... 12 YEARS. Some trans people have waited years and years, decline after decline or have non cooperative GPs to help them. This change needs to happen | |||
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"I think the world's gone fucking mad!! Explain? " its spinning off its axis   | |||
"I think the world's gone fucking mad!! Explain? its spinning off its axis "That's mainly because middle old men are so offended by the idea of someone living comfortably rather than planning their over 50 life insurance policies xoxo | |||
"I think the world's gone fucking mad!! Explain? its spinning off its axis
That's mainly because middle old men are so offended by the idea of someone living comfortably rather than planning their over 50 life insurance policies xoxo"middle old men lol you do know middle age is 60 now | |||
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"The case is now at the court of appeal, do yo u have a view? If it passes then the impact will be huge with massive costs associated. Do you think the current system is "inherently discriminatory" as claimed? Personally I think some people have too much time on their hands (pops my tin hat on) The Gender Reform had nothing to do with Gender Neutral passports. The reason conservative had a discussion (Which I wrote my part towards Theresa), was nothing to do with Gender Neutral. The way the passport office works at the moment proves to be intimidating, stressful and complicated for a trans inididuval to get ID (I should know, 12 years later and I'm only JUST now getting my passport in female). The Gender Recognition panel: another obstacle that proves challenging and dehumanising to trans individuals. This reform will allow hearings to be alot more simple - and yes, it will include the option for binary individuals (Please note, binary and gender neutral people will NOT be able to change their birth certificates. This was in the Reform. It was a discussion that hasn't even been approved yet. The topic mainly was focused on Trans people) This was a much bigger picture than just "gender natural". It will give people in a transition to be able to get the right documentation without the years of distress and embarrassment jumping backwards. I wasted so much time of my life trying to "PROVE" who I was to a stupid committee that I lost out on travelling at a young age. This isn't a issue you have had to deal with and frankly, your opinion is just that. It's not your life, it's not your challenge therefore, leave it to the people who genuinely need this change. God forbid any young trans people have to ever encounter what myself and many others have had too over the years.Let me repeat 12 YEARS its taken... 12 YEARS. Some trans people have waited years and years, decline after decline or have non cooperative GPs to help them. This change needs to happen " Where you told that you could not have a passport at all ? | |||
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"I can't see the harm in an extra box on the passport but presumably all countries would have to agree ?" Actually this is a valid point. In fact some coubtries may reject entry if N/B was to be shown on a British passport. Not every country is open to this at the moment. | |||
no such thing i know people like to play god nowadays but this is just dumb | |||
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" no such thing i know people like to play god nowadays but this is just dumb"No such thing as passports? | |||
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"I can't see the harm in an extra box on the passport but presumably all countries would have to agree ? Actually this is a valid point. In fact some coubtries may reject entry if N/B was to be shown on a British passport. Not every country is open to this at the moment. " See my posts above. There are a whole bunch of countries that already issue passports with an X marker. International law on passport control already requires that all countries where eg. an Australian passport is valid, accept X as a valid sex designator. The law has been in place for many years, every passport check officer in europe, america, asia, australasia already has to recognise X if they see it on a passport. There are only three markings allowed, they have to be a single uppercase letter, they must be M, F or X. No one is allowed to invent other markers eg. N for non-binary. But i reiterate, international law already recognises X all over the world. The only argument is about whether the UK will get its collective head out of its arse and allow issuing these passports to the people who need them. | |||
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"I have reflected on this. I can think of no more difficult journey as that of a person transitioning. There should be a place for everyone in society and is it such a big deal to listen to the trans community needs and act on them? Passports are about nationality and identity. They are also about security and liberty. Our security will not be compromised if there is an extra box or two on the document. " | |||
"I have reflected on this. I can think of no more difficult journey as that of a person transitioning. There should be a place for everyone in society and is it such a big deal to listen to the trans community needs and act on them? Passports are about nationality and identity. They are also about security and liberty. Our security will not be compromised if there is an extra box or two on the document. " | |||
"But i reiterate, international law already recognises X all over the world. The only argument is about whether the UK will get its collective head out of its arse and allow issuing these passports to the people who need them." Your arguments have convinced me that this is a good idea, and to go with current accepted international practice we should include X as an option, however internally I think we should go a stage further, remove the gender question from the application form and make all new passports show X for all UK subjects. This practice will reduce risk for trans people landing in transphobic countries, and alleviate the fear of extra cost and database size by just removing gender from ID all together. | |||
"The case is now at the court of appeal, do yo u have a view? If it passes then the impact will be huge with massive costs associated. Do you think the current system is "inherently discriminatory" as claimed? Personally I think some people have too much time on their hands (pops my tin hat on) The Gender Reform had nothing to do with Gender Neutral passports. The reason conservative had a discussion (Which I wrote my part towards Theresa), was nothing to do with Gender Neutral. The way the passport office works at the moment proves to be intimidating, stressful and complicated for a trans inididuval to get ID (I should know, 12 years later and I'm only JUST now getting my passport in female). The Gender Recognition panel: another obstacle that proves challenging and dehumanising to trans individuals. This reform will allow hearings to be alot more simple - and yes, it will include the option for binary individuals (Please note, binary and gender neutral people will NOT be able to change their birth certificates. This was in the Reform. It was a discussion that hasn't even been approved yet. The topic mainly was focused on Trans people) This was a much bigger picture than just "gender natural". It will give people in a transition to be able to get the right documentation without the years of distress and embarrassment jumping backwards. I wasted so much time of my life trying to "PROVE" who I was to a stupid committee that I lost out on travelling at a young age. This isn't a issue you have had to deal with and frankly, your opinion is just that. It's not your life, it's not your challenge therefore, leave it to the people who genuinely need this change. God forbid any young trans people have to ever encounter what myself and many others have had too over the years.Let me repeat 12 YEARS its taken... 12 YEARS. Some trans people have waited years and years, decline after decline or have non cooperative GPs to help them. This change needs to happen Where you told that you could not have a passport at all ?" You have to have a letter of approval from a GP, Gender Clinic 04 Gender Specialist. Or - Hold a GRS Certificate which means approaching the magistrates board for approval - other people basically saying wether you should have the right to be noticed as the gender you identify with. No GP Was willing to write my letter even though I was 13 years into transition. Couldnt get a GRC hearing as again, GP wouldnt write evidence or proof so it was a constant circle. The laws would just make it alot easier thankfully after a long battle with 4 GPs and 11 years later, I finally got that letter of approval xx | |||
"God sorry I'm going to offend I know.. but my view is that you were born with a womb or not.. womb = female You can identify as whatever you want but nature is nature... So as for passports..male or female should remain in my opinion!" What about women who are born intersexed (No cervix). What about women born with a non functioning cervix? What about women who are born to later develop infertility? Does this mean they are not "Women"? Your logic is outdated hun. Ciao xoxo | |||
"God sorry I'm going to offend I know.. but my view is that you were born with a womb or not.. womb = female You can identify as whatever you want but nature is nature... So as for passports..male or female should remain in my opinion! What about women who are born intersexed (No cervix). What about women born with a non functioning cervix? What about women who are born to later develop infertility? Does this mean they are not "Women"? Your logic is outdated hun. Ciao xoxo" all i know is when cats and dogs are born they dont cut em open to see if theres a cervix theres a much easier way | |||
"The case is now at the court of appeal, do yo u have a view? If it passes then the impact will be huge with massive costs associated. Do you think the current system is "inherently discriminatory" as claimed? Personally I think some people have too much time on their hands (pops my tin hat on) The Gender Reform had nothing to do with Gender Neutral passports. The reason conservative had a discussion (Which I wrote my part towards Theresa), was nothing to do with Gender Neutral. The way the passport office works at the moment proves to be intimidating, stressful and complicated for a trans inididuval to get ID (I should know, 12 years later and I'm only JUST now getting my passport in female). The Gender Recognition panel: another obstacle that proves challenging and dehumanising to trans individuals. This reform will allow hearings to be alot more simple - and yes, it will include the option for binary individuals (Please note, binary and gender neutral people will NOT be able to change their birth certificates. This was in the Reform. It was a discussion that hasn't even been approved yet. The topic mainly was focused on Trans people) This was a much bigger picture than just "gender natural". It will give people in a transition to be able to get the right documentation without the years of distress and embarrassment jumping backwards. I wasted so much time of my life trying to "PROVE" who I was to a stupid committee that I lost out on travelling at a young age. This isn't a issue you have had to deal with and frankly, your opinion is just that. It's not your life, it's not your challenge therefore, leave it to the people who genuinely need this change. God forbid any young trans people have to ever encounter what myself and many others have had too over the years.Let me repeat 12 YEARS its taken... 12 YEARS. Some trans people have waited years and years, decline after decline or have non cooperative GPs to help them. This change needs to happen Where you told that you could not have a passport at all ? You have to have a letter of approval from a GP, Gender Clinic 04 Gender Specialist. Or - Hold a GRS Certificate which means approaching the magistrates board for approval - other people basically saying wether you should have the right to be noticed as the gender you identify with. No GP Was willing to write my letter even though I was 13 years into transition. Couldnt get a GRC hearing as again, GP wouldnt write evidence or proof so it was a constant circle. The laws would just make it alot easier thankfully after a long battle with 4 GPs and 11 years later, I finally got that letter of approval xx" just because things can be done dont mean they should be | |||
"God sorry I'm going to offend I know.. but my view is that you were born with a womb or not.. womb = female You can identify as whatever you want but nature is nature... So as for passports..male or female should remain in my opinion! What about women who are born intersexed (No cervix). What about women born with a non functioning cervix? What about women who are born to later develop infertility? Does this mean they are not "Women"? Your logic is outdated hun. Ciao xoxoall i know is when cats and dogs are born they dont cut em open to see if theres a cervix theres a much easier way "So obsessed with what other people do with their bodies arent you? Should focus on yours a bit more. Self love is everything baby cakes :* | |||
"God sorry I'm going to offend I know.. but my view is that you were born with a womb or not.. womb = female You can identify as whatever you want but nature is nature... So as for passports..male or female should remain in my opinion! What about women who are born intersexed (No cervix). What about women born with a non functioning cervix? What about women who are born to later develop infertility? Does this mean they are not "Women"? Your logic is outdated hun. Ciao xoxoall i know is when cats and dogs are born they dont cut em open to see if theres a cervix theres a much easier way
So obsessed with what other people do with their bodies arent you? Should focus on yours a bit more. Self love is everything baby cakes :* "i couldnt give a toss but when what you do i dont know you im just sharing my opinion as i like as for my body its fucking perfection just like the rest of me  | |||
"God sorry I'm going to offend I know.. but my view is that you were born with a womb or not.. womb = female You can identify as whatever you want but nature is nature... So as for passports..male or female should remain in my opinion! What about women who are born intersexed (No cervix). What about women born with a non functioning cervix? What about women who are born to later develop infertility? Does this mean they are not "Women"? Your logic is outdated hun. Ciao xoxoall i know is when cats and dogs are born they dont cut em open to see if theres a cervix theres a much easier way
So obsessed with what other people do with their bodies arent you? Should focus on yours a bit more. Self love is everything baby cakes :* i couldnt give a toss but when what you do i dont know you im just sharing my opinion as i like as for my body its fucking perfection just like the rest of me "if you say so hun  | |||
"God sorry I'm going to offend I know.. but my view is that you were born with a womb or not.. womb = female You can identify as whatever you want but nature is nature... So as for passports..male or female should remain in my opinion! What about women who are born intersexed (No cervix). What about women born with a non functioning cervix? What about women who are born to later develop infertility? Does this mean they are not "Women"? Your logic is outdated hun. Ciao xoxoall i know is when cats and dogs are born they dont cut em open to see if theres a cervix theres a much easier way
So obsessed with what other people do with their bodies arent you? Should focus on yours a bit more. Self love is everything baby cakes :* i couldnt give a toss but when what you do i dont know you im just sharing my opinion as i like as for my body its fucking perfection just like the rest of me
if you say so hun "i know so and knowledge is power  | |||
"God sorry I'm going to offend I know.. but my view is that you were born with a womb or not.. womb = female You can identify as whatever you want but nature is nature... So as for passports..male or female should remain in my opinion! What about women who are born intersexed (No cervix). What about women born with a non functioning cervix? What about women who are born to later develop infertility? Does this mean they are not "Women"? Your logic is outdated hun. Ciao xoxoall i know is when cats and dogs are born they dont cut em open to see if theres a cervix theres a much easier way
So obsessed with what other people do with their bodies arent you? Should focus on yours a bit more. Self love is everything baby cakes :* i couldnt give a toss but when what you do i dont know you im just sharing my opinion as i like as for my body its fucking perfection just like the rest of me
if you say so hun i know so and knowledge is power "Knowledge? Did you buy it cheap in Poundland because it seem's a bit rusty if you ask me | |||
"God sorry I'm going to offend I know.. but my view is that you were born with a womb or not.. womb = female You can identify as whatever you want but nature is nature... So as for passports..male or female should remain in my opinion! What about women who are born intersexed (No cervix). What about women born with a non functioning cervix? What about women who are born to later develop infertility? Does this mean they are not "Women"? Your logic is outdated hun. Ciao xoxoall i know is when cats and dogs are born they dont cut em open to see if theres a cervix theres a much easier way
So obsessed with what other people do with their bodies arent you? Should focus on yours a bit more. Self love is everything baby cakes :* i couldnt give a toss but when what you do i dont know you im just sharing my opinion as i like as for my body its fucking perfection just like the rest of me
if you say so hun i know so and knowledge is power
Knowledge? Did you buy it cheap in Poundland because it seem's a bit rusty if you ask me "bute hard got ya was home and bargain i got class | |||
"God sorry I'm going to offend I know.. but my view is that you were born with a womb or not.. womb = female You can identify as whatever you want but nature is nature... So as for passports..male or female should remain in my opinion!" Well it would be better to say what chromosome you were born with, xx or what not, as some people can be born without any reproductive organ, but they will always have chromosones. | |||
"Its a big costly change youre going from 8mb to store every single person in the countries gender, to 135mb. Binary is very easy to use and work with, its super fast to store as a 1 or 0, it takes up tiny amout of ram, you can query it really really fast. Moving to "m, f, n" will require huge amounts of work, and cause bugs for years as the police, insurance companies, banks have to roll it out. Also every system that has to use it will slow down, it just takes more time to query. You made that up didn't you." Lol have been looking into it for companies who want to offer more than one gender for their customers. Some have broken down all their stored values into yes no questions, "over 18", "Male female", "british not". you can then store someones data like 10110 00110 one would be a male british person, the other a female. only 1 bit of difference. changing to 3 options or maybe more in the future, is possible, but people need to accept its not as easy as adding a box to a form they print out. Some have to overhaul every document in the building, to change the genders, some want templates built with "He, "she", "they" in them to auto fill when the gender is selected. What happens is in a months time they call you up with some bug, and you track it down to some part of some website or some app, and it was giving a 1 or 0 instead of m,f,n. Or the user interface was crashing when it got an N instead of male or female. things like that. | |||
"Its a big costly change youre going from 8mb to store every single person in the countries gender, to 135mb. Binary is very easy to use and work with, its super fast to store as a 1 or 0, it takes up tiny amout of ram, you can query it really really fast. Moving to "m, f, n" will require huge amounts of work, and cause bugs for years as the police, insurance companies, banks have to roll it out. Also every system that has to use it will slow down, it just takes more time to query. You made that up didn't you. Lol have been looking into it for companies who want to offer more than one gender for their customers. Some have broken down all their stored values into yes no questions, "over 18", "Male female", "british not". you can then store someones data like 10110 00110 one would be a male british person, the other a female. only 1 bit of difference. changing to 3 options or maybe more in the future, is possible, but people need to accept its not as easy as adding a box to a form they print out. Some have to overhaul every document in the building, to change the genders, some want templates built with "He, "she", "they" in them to auto fill when the gender is selected. What happens is in a months time they call you up with some bug, and you track it down to some part of some website or some app, and it was giving a 1 or 0 instead of m,f,n. Or the user interface was crashing when it got an N instead of male or female. things like that." No responsible database designer would store over or under 18 as a data bit, guaranteed to be incorrect data in under 18 years! However if they default everyone to X they can drop the input field and save disc space instead | |||
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"Lots of people offering barriers but not remedies.. Trans are British citizens and should have the same protection and privilege as any UK citizen" Of course they shouldn't. Putting an X on passports for trans/ non gendered/ etc people would ruin millions of people's lives. | |||
"Lots of people offering barriers but not remedies.. Trans are British citizens and should have the same protection and privilege as any UK citizen Of course they shouldn't. Putting an X on passports for trans/ non gendered/ etc people would ruin millions of people's lives. " Would ruin millions of bigots lives ... | |||
"God sorry I'm going to offend I know.. but my view is that you were born with a womb or not.. womb = female You can identify as whatever you want but nature is nature... So as for passports..male or female should remain in my opinion!" So be offended, my passport and driver's license is now female. | |||
"Lots of people offering barriers but not remedies.. Trans are British citizens and should have the same protection and privilege as any UK citizen Of course they shouldn't. Putting an X on passports for trans/ non gendered/ etc people would ruin millions of people's lives. Would ruin millions of bigots lives ..." Exactly! | |||
