FabSwingers.com > Forums > The Lounge > Punishment for criminals
Punishment for criminals
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"I'm sure most of you would agree with me and get a little annoyed at the leniency of fines and sentences for some criminals. Some just get away with a 'slap on the wrist.' I had a motorbike stolen a few years ago and the theif got caught, but for whatever reason the police sent me a letter to say they wouldn't take the matter any further. The thief, got away with it scott free and in my opinion knowing that they had got away with it would probably steal again. Do you think public humiliation would help to stop people re-offending? Or could it be used as punishment for minor crimes? Like using stocks as they used to with the town folk throwing rotten vegetables at the offenders. " Move to saudi, if a thief stole your bike the punishment = the hand is cut off | |||
"Read The Secret Barrister's book. Our Government and its cut has left the court system in a parlous state. Cases are dropped or left hanging for so long that they fail because the courts can't sit. " It's a hell of an eye opener, that book. | |||
"Move to saudi, if a thief stole your bike the punishment = the hand is cut off" The punishment for highway robbery is even more extreme: cross amputation (right hand and left foot). Makes it bloody difficult to ride a motorbike. Otto J M. Sharia Incorporated: A Comparative Overview of the Legal Systems of Twelve Muslim Countries in Past and Present, 2010. | |||
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"people steal because they need money for whatever the product is that they need embarassing them doesnt solve the problem, if they need something and they dont have the means to get it they will reoffend they have no choice "Individuals also steal because they are predatory, opportunistic and/or anti-social; they prefer to steal rather than work, like the remainder of the law-abiding population. Their behaviour is not consistent with that of a civilised society. | |||
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"people steal because they need money for whatever the product is that they need embarassing them doesnt solve the problem, if they need something and they dont have the means to get it they will reoffend they have no choice "People steal because they WANT money for whatever product they want - be it drugs, smokes, gang membership, popularity, mental illness, brain injury etc - if they WANT something and they do not have the means or comprehension they will re-offend. This is not the days of stealing bread to feed your family and going to jail for 40 years for starvation. People have all they can for survival - food, shelter, and clothing provided by non profit and government help. Even free gym and entertainment services. Separate from those basic essential needs, just about everything else is a want. Sounds harsh, but my background and professional experience can make it very black and white. Hugs - you're still cool. | |||
"Move to saudi, if a thief stole your bike the punishment = the hand is cut off The punishment for highway robbery is even more extreme: cross amputation (right hand and left foot). Makes it bloody difficult to ride a motorbike. Otto J M. Sharia Incorporated: A Comparative Overview of the Legal Systems of Twelve Muslim Countries in Past and Present, 2010. " Can still ride a camel though  | |||
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"people steal because they need money for whatever the product is that they need embarassing them doesnt solve the problem, if they need something and they dont have the means to get it they will reoffend they have no choice
Individuals also steal because they are predatory, opportunistic and/or anti-social; they prefer to steal rather than work, like the remainder of the law-abiding population.
Their behaviour is not consistent with that of a civilised society."Neither is ritual humiliation | |||
"people steal because they need money for whatever the product is that they need embarassing them doesnt solve the problem, if they need something and they dont have the means to get it they will reoffend they have no choice
Individuals also steal because they are predatory, opportunistic and/or anti-social; they prefer to steal rather than work, like the remainder of the law-abiding population.
Their behaviour is not consistent with that of a civilised society."of course not but their behaviour is endemic of the society they live in, the rich get richer the poor get poorer | |||
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"I'm of the personal opinion that d*unk drivers should be charged with attempted murder or attempted homicide. It's just my opinion. " This! Along with those who do cause serious harm or death with their car even sober. A car is a killing machine if in the wrong hands. I don't understand why the sentence is so much shorter when it's happened with a car. Stupid. | |||
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"people steal because they need money for whatever the product is that they need embarassing them doesnt solve the problem, if they need something and they dont have the means to get it they will reoffend they have no choice
Individuals also steal because they are predatory, opportunistic and/or anti-social; they prefer to steal rather than work, like the remainder of the law-abiding population.
Their behaviour is not consistent with that of a civilised society."Sadly, I deal with this on a daily basis. Little Doris, who is 90 odd, is walking to the shops to get her pension money and a tin of cat food for Tiddles who is her only companion since her beloved Alf died years ago. She is walking down the street she has lived in for the last 50 odd years when some feral scumbag in a hoodie mugs her for her money. He doesn't give a shit about Doris, he just knows this is an easy way to make a bit of quick cash. In mugging Doris, he knocks her to the floor. In doing so, Doris breaks her hip and is taken to hospital. Generally, one of two things happen. Either Doris doesn't make it out of hospital because shes too frail to make it post surgery and dies there. Tiddles then starves to death because no one checks her flat as she has no relatives and her carers stop calling because shes in hospital. Or, she makes it out of surgery and comes home to be a recluse as shes too frightened to go out again. The feral scumbag in the hoodie might get arrested and taken to court but some do gooder convinces the magistrate that hes had a "traumatic upbringing" and is a "good person at heart". He gets let off with a punitive sentence and is back on the streets to do it all again to another "Doris". It breaks my heart at times but at other times makes me want to turn into Charles Bronson in "Death Wish". | |||
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"people steal because they need money for whatever the product is that they need embarassing them doesnt solve the problem, if they need something and they dont have the means to get it they will reoffend they have no choice
Individuals also steal because they are predatory, opportunistic and/or anti-social; they prefer to steal rather than work, like the remainder of the law-abiding population.
Their behaviour is not consistent with that of a civilised society. Sadly, I deal with this on a daily basis. Little Doris, who is 90 odd, is walking to the shops to get her pension money and a tin of cat food for Tiddles who is her only companion since her beloved Alf died years ago. She is walking down the street she has lived in for the last 50 odd years when some feral scumbag in a hoodie mugs her for her money. He doesn't give a shit about Doris, he just knows this is an easy way to make a bit of quick cash. In mugging Doris, he knocks her to the floor. In doing so, Doris breaks her hip and is taken to hospital. Generally, one of two things happen. Either Doris doesn't make it out of hospital because shes too frail to make it post surgery and dies there. Tiddles then starves to death because no one checks her flat as she has no relatives and her carers stop calling because shes in hospital. Or, she makes it out of surgery and comes home to be a recluse as shes too frightened to go out again. The feral scumbag in the hoodie might get arrested and taken to court but some do gooder convinces the magistrate that hes had a "traumatic upbringing" and is a "good person at heart". He gets let off with a punitive sentence and is back on the streets to do it all again to another "Doris". It breaks my heart at times but at other times makes me want to turn into Charles Bronson in "Death Wish"."Yeah happened my grandad, who lived on same road for over 60 years, ended up in hospital from it, but never made it out of hospital. He went on to live for a good few years, but in a care hospital as he went from someone walking to the shops every day to someone who basically needed a wheelchair. While in hospital his house was broken into and ransacked. I never had the heart to tell him his house got broken into, I actually told him it was all fine and I was looking after it every day and so were the neighbours. His story isnt isolated, its actually common, and yeah the police view it as petty crime unless they actually kick the shit out of the old person on the ground and murder them then and there. If you make it to 85+ these days, then basically someone is gonna push you over and take your money. It being your home for 60 years just lets them learn your patterns, thats all. | |||
"people steal because they need money for whatever the product is that they need embarassing them doesnt solve the problem, if they need something and they dont have the means to get it they will reoffend they have no choice
Individuals also steal because they are predatory, opportunistic and/or anti-social; they prefer to steal rather than work, like the remainder of the law-abiding population.
Their behaviour is not consistent with that of a civilised society. Sadly, I deal with this on a daily basis. Little Doris, who is 90 odd, is walking to the shops to get her pension money and a tin of cat food for Tiddles who is her only companion since her beloved Alf died years ago. She is walking down the street she has lived in for the last 50 odd years when some feral scumbag in a hoodie mugs her for her money. He doesn't give a shit about Doris, he just knows this is an easy way to make a bit of quick cash. In mugging Doris, he knocks her to the floor. In doing so, Doris breaks her hip and is taken to hospital. Generally, one of two things happen. Either Doris doesn't make it out of hospital because shes too frail to make it post surgery and dies there. Tiddles then starves to death because no one checks her flat as she has no relatives and her carers stop calling because shes in hospital. Or, she makes it out of surgery and comes home to be a recluse as shes too frightened to go out again. The feral scumbag in the hoodie might get arrested and taken to court but some do gooder convinces the magistrate that hes had a "traumatic upbringing" and is a "good person at heart". He gets let off with a punitive sentence and is back on the streets to do it all again to another "Doris". It breaks my heart at times but at other times makes me want to turn into Charles Bronson in "Death Wish".
Yeah happened my grandad, who lived on same road for over 60 years, ended up in hospital from it, but never made it out of hospital. He went on to live for a good few years, but in a care hospital as he went from someone walking to the shops every day to someone who basically needed a wheelchair.
While in hospital his house was broken into and ransacked.
I never had the heart to tell him his house got broken into, I actually told him it was all fine and I was looking after it every day and so were the neighbours.
His story isnt isolated, its actually common, and yeah the police view it as petty crime unless they actually kick the shit out of the old person on the ground and murder them then and there.
If you make it to 85+ these days, then basically someone is gonna push you over and take your money. It being your home for 60 years just lets them learn your patterns, thats all."The Police officers on the ground actually want to see these people locked up and dealt with but they are up against the CPS who some call "couldn't prosecute satan". I'm not a cop and to be honest, couldn't be one due to them being so frustrated and hamstrung but I work closely with them and have a lot of respect for them. | |||
"Their behaviour is not consistent with that of a civilised society. Neither is ritual humiliation" I don't believe that I mentioned anything about ritual humiliation. | |||
I would be surprised at anyone repeating offenses there. | |||
"Nah, we are not Indonesia or something. We had those backward ways, we got rid of them, and we dont let ourselves practice them anymore." Yes, we used to burn women accused of witchcraft, but today we have: 732 murders (the highest recorded since 2008) 4% increase in the number recorded offences involving firearms (despite having one of the most tightly controlled access to firearms regime in the world) 17% rise in bank and credit account fraud 7% increase in the number of police recorded offences involving knives 11% increase in theft 3% increase in vehicle offences (including an increase of 7% in the subcategory of taking a vehicle without consent) 11% increase in robbery 31% of women aged 18-24 report having experienced sexual abuse in childhood A paltry 5% of reported raape (grow up FabSwingers, it's a legitimate concern) cases end in a conviction for the perpetrator 4% decrease in burglary (hurrah, we can all sleep safely in our beds!) These are the figures that get reported; how many people do not report crimes because they believe that no action will be taken (particularly burglary, repe, vehicle damage, theft etc.)? Sources R0pe Crisis (yes, it's a frickin' word FS), Crime Survey for England and Wales, Office for National Statistics. | |||
"A paltry 5% of reported raape (grow up FabSwingers, it's a legitimate concern) cases end in a conviction for the perpetrator" ALLEGED perpetrator. | |||
"I was watching a documentary about Russian prisons the other night. They certainly know how to really punish people I would be surprised at anyone repeating offenses there."do tell, they dont withold wodka do they? | |||
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"Read The Secret Barrister's book. Our Government and its cut has left the court system in a parlous state. Cases are dropped or left hanging for so long that they fail because the courts can't sit. It's a hell of an eye opener, that book." I agree. I'm part way through it. Shocking | |||
"I was watching a documentary about Russian prisons the other night. They certainly know how to really punish people I would be surprised at anyone repeating offenses there."What do they do? | |||
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" But it's not just the criminal sentencing that prevents crime. Why do they commit them in the first place? Sure there assholes out there, but predominantly? Lack of education, purpose,belonging,nurture,good parenting, hope, ambition, meaningful relationships, community...the list goes on. Even some of the worst offenders have changed. I guess we need to ask ourselves, do we think focus should be placed on reaction to crime or prevention? Sure its frustrating being a victim, and justice needs to be proportionate and relative but our creaking systems cant deliver in many areas any more." You are spot on - we don’t need to focus on reactionary measures, we need to start with the early life and upbringing of people who become adult offenders. As someone who worked for years as a forensic psychologist in prisons, I can categorically say that humiliation in public is the route only to further perpetuating an antisocial society, and goes no way to addressing *why* people offend. I accept that this isn’t always a view shared by others, but when you’ve seen offenders, from burglars to murderers, make some small steps to being better people with genuine empathy for what they did, and developing a better understanding of how their psychological make up leads them into offending and how to prevent it... you have a whole different perspective.  | |||
" But it's not just the criminal sentencing that prevents crime. Why do they commit them in the first place? Sure there assholes out there, but predominantly? Lack of education, purpose,belonging,nurture,good parenting, hope, ambition, meaningful relationships, community...the list goes on. Even some of the worst offenders have changed. I guess we need to ask ourselves, do we think focus should be placed on reaction to crime or prevention? Sure its frustrating being a victim, and justice needs to be proportionate and relative but our creaking systems cant deliver in many areas any more. You are spot on - we don’t need to focus on reactionary measures, we need to start with the early life and upbringing of people who become adult offenders. As someone who worked for years as a forensic psychologist in prisons, I can categorically say that humiliation in public is the route only to further perpetuating an antisocial society, and goes no way to addressing *why* people offend. I accept that this isn’t always a view shared by others, but when you’ve seen offenders, from burglars to murderers, make some small steps to being better people with genuine empathy for what they did, and developing a better understanding of how their psychological make up leads them into offending and how to prevent it... you have a whole different perspective. " | |||
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"My opinion & I know I’ll have people going at me here but... Too many do gooders, too many human rights! We seem to protect the criminals more than the victims now! The ones who repeat offend get minimal punishment as if it was a one off for a hard working citizen then the law smashes down on them harder! Criminals laugh in the face of the law! The perks they now get in prison is no longer a deterrent " Have you worked or been inside a modern day prison? | |||
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"My opinion & I know I’ll have people going at me here but... Too many do gooders, too many human rights! We seem to protect the criminals more than the victims now! The ones who repeat offend get minimal punishment as if it was a one off for a hard working citizen then the law smashes down on them harder! Criminals laugh in the face of the law! The perks they now get in prison is no longer a deterrent Have you worked or been inside a modern day prison? " Yes. I’ve had to visit them over the last 20 odd years. | |||
"My opinion & I know I’ll have people going at me here but... Too many do gooders, too many human rights! We seem to protect the criminals more than the victims now! The ones who repeat offend get minimal punishment as if it was a one off for a hard working citizen then the law smashes down on them harder! Criminals laugh in the face of the law! The perks they now get in prison is no longer a deterrent Have you worked or been inside a modern day prison? Yes. I’ve had to visit them over the last 20 odd years." In what capacity? I’m very surprised that you see prison as having “perks”. Like I say, I worked in prisons for years in rehabilitation, and my partner is a prison officer. Neither of us would describe what we worked with and saw and dealt with as “easy” for the prisoners. | |||
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"Whenever I have read about studies on the efficacy of punishments they always seem to say it's not the nature of the punishment that influences criminal behaviour but the liklihood of getting caught. " Good point, though I'd suggest that's very dependant on the nature, severity and type of crime I think? How many self professed decent people, would walk into a bank and take a million pounds if they had an absolute guarantee they'd get away with it? Most repeat offenders are messed up individuals with very poor coping strategies. Far from the perceived evil masterminds some would believe are out there. The justice system is meant to symbolise the fact we represent a civilised society. Theres always exceptions, but I'd rather live in that society than a lynch mob mentality. | |||
"Whenever I have read about studies on the efficacy of punishments they always seem to say it's not the nature of the punishment that influences criminal behaviour but the liklihood of getting caught. Good point, though I'd suggest that's very dependant on the nature, severity and type of crime I think? How many self professed decent people, would walk into a bank and take a million pounds if they had an absolute guarantee they'd get away with it? Most repeat offenders are messed up individuals with very poor coping strategies. Far from the perceived evil masterminds some would believe are out there. The justice system is meant to symbolise the fact we represent a civilised society. Theres always exceptions, but I'd rather live in that society than a lynch mob mentality." | |||
"I'm sure most of you would agree with me and get a little annoyed at the leniency of fines and sentences for some criminals. Some just get away with a 'slap on the wrist.' I had a motorbike stolen a few years ago and the theif got caught, but for whatever reason the police sent me a letter to say they wouldn't take the matter any further. The thief, got away with it scott free and in my opinion knowing that they had got away with it would probably steal again. Do you think public humiliation would help to stop people re-offending? Or could it be used as punishment for minor crimes? Like using stocks as they used to with the town folk throwing rotten vegetables at the offenders. " Increase the cost of criminals and you would see no criminals on any country's, blame liberals for raising human right of criminal guys. If thieve is making 50 pound in a day, once he caught make them pay 100 pound I'm a day. | |||
"Whenever I have read about studies on the efficacy of punishments they always seem to say it's not the nature of the punishment that influences criminal behaviour but the liklihood of getting caught. Good point, though I'd suggest that's very dependant on the nature, severity and type of crime I think? How many self professed decent people, would walk into a bank and take a million pounds if they had an absolute guarantee they'd get away with it? Most repeat offenders are messed up individuals with very poor coping strategies. Far from the perceived evil masterminds some would believe are out there. The justice system is meant to symbolise the fact we represent a civilised society. Theres always exceptions, but I'd rather live in that society than a lynch mob mentality." A large proportion of violent offenders have poor emotion regulation strategies as a result of childhood trauma including neglect and abuse (not all - but a significant proportion). This leads to poor impulse control and lack of knowledge of how to problem solve socially without lashing out. Whether or not they are going to get away with lashing out at someone doesn’t necessarily come into their thinking when they are emotionally out of control. | |||
"I'm sure most of you would agree with me and get a little annoyed at the leniency of fines and sentences for some criminals. Some just get away with a 'slap on the wrist.' I had a motorbike stolen a few years ago and the theif got caught, but for whatever reason the police sent me a letter to say they wouldn't take the matter any further. The thief, got away with it scott free and in my opinion knowing that they had got away with it would probably steal again. Do you think public humiliation would help to stop people re-offending? Or could it be used as punishment for minor crimes? Like using stocks as they used to with the town folk throwing rotten vegetables at the offenders. Increase the cost of criminals and you would see no criminals on any country's, blame liberals for raising human right of criminal guys. If thieve is making 50 pound in a day, once he caught make them pay 100 pound I'm a day." Which he doesnt have. So he seeks ways to find it....doh!! | |||
"Their behaviour is not consistent with that of a civilised society. Neither is ritual humiliation I don't believe that I mentioned anything about ritual humiliation." You didn't but public humiliation as a punishment was the basis of this thread | |||
"My opinion & I know I’ll have people going at me here but... Too many do gooders, too many human rights! We seem to protect the criminals more than the victims now! The ones who repeat offend get minimal punishment as if it was a one off for a hard working citizen then the law smashes down on them harder! Criminals laugh in the face of the law! The perks they now get in prison is no longer a deterrent Have you worked or been inside a modern day prison? Yes. I’ve had to visit them over the last 20 odd years. In what capacity? I’m very surprised that you see prison as having “perks”. Like I say, I worked in prisons for years in rehabilitation, and my partner is a prison officer. Neither of us would describe what we worked with and saw and dealt with as “easy” for the prisoners. " So 4 areas to make my personal opinion. & as a wise man once said opinions are like arseoles we’ve all got 1. Fire safety. Training venues Friends who are wardens Associates who have done a bit of bird. | |||
"I'm sure most of you would agree with me and get a little annoyed at the leniency of fines and sentences for some criminals. Some just get away with a 'slap on the wrist.' I had a motorbike stolen a few years ago and the theif got caught, but for whatever reason the police sent me a letter to say they wouldn't take the matter any further. The thief, got away with it scott free and in my opinion knowing that they had got away with it would probably steal again. Do you think public humiliation would help to stop people re-offending? Or could it be used as punishment for minor crimes? Like using stocks as they used to with the town folk throwing rotten vegetables at the offenders. Increase the cost of criminals and you would see no criminals on any country's, blame liberals for raising human right of criminal guys. If thieve is making 50 pound in a day, once he caught make them pay 100 pound I'm a day. Which he doesnt have. So he seeks ways to find it....doh!!" Correct but no one stopping him to earn money legitimately, and no one will take away if he earns, if he is stealing money for food, don't give him food for a week. He will never steal it again, and won't die without food in a week. | |||
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"I think a novel idea for repeat offenders, especially younger ones that don't commit the most serious crimes of r@pe, murder etc is that they should be forcibly conscripted into the army for a minimum period of two years. Make it tough. Drill into the them the need for discipline, responsibility and respect of authority, all the while giving them some purpose. It would be very interesting to see stats of crime in countries when the draft was compulsory and then figures after it was abolished." I wouldn't handover automatic rifles to criminals, so many serious crimes by soldier, in spite of years of training and decipline. | |||
"I think a novel idea for repeat offenders, especially younger ones that don't commit the most serious crimes of r@pe, murder etc is that they should be forcibly conscripted into the army for a minimum period of two years. Make it tough. Drill into the them the need for discipline, responsibility and respect of authority, all the while giving them some purpose. It would be very interesting to see stats of crime in countries when the draft was compulsory and then figures after it was abolished." This isn’t a bad idea for the younger offenders who commit the more minor offences. As well as the benefits of respect for authority and a sense of purpose, the military can also provide a sense of belonging and safety (from an attachment perspective) that is so sadly missing in many of these young men’s lives. The number of times I’ve heard stories that include the words “...and then I got taken off my mum and dad cos they weren’t fit to look after me / kept beating me / were using drugs / neglected me... so I bounced from foster home to foster home... then started offending.” etc. It’s very sad really. Early life experiences- it’s where we need to start. | |||
"I think a novel idea for repeat offenders, especially younger ones that don't commit the most serious crimes of r@pe, murder etc is that they should be forcibly conscripted into the army for a minimum period of two years. Make it tough. Drill into the them the need for discipline, responsibility and respect of authority, all the while giving them some purpose. It would be very interesting to see stats of crime in countries when the draft was compulsory and then figures after it was abolished. I wouldn't handover automatic rifles to criminals, so many serious crimes by soldier, in spite of years of training and decipline." Where are you getting your statistics from? | |||
"I think a novel idea for repeat offenders, especially younger ones that don't commit the most serious crimes of r@pe, murder etc is that they should be forcibly conscripted into the army for a minimum period of two years. Make it tough. Drill into the them the need for discipline, responsibility and respect of authority, all the while giving them some purpose. It would be very interesting to see stats of crime in countries when the draft was compulsory and then figures after it was abolished. This isn’t a bad idea for the younger offenders who commit the more minor offences. As well as the benefits of respect for authority and a sense of purpose, the military can also provide a sense of belonging and safety (from an attachment perspective) that is so sadly missing in many of these young men’s lives. The number of times I’ve heard stories that include the words “...and then I got taken off my mum and dad cos they weren’t fit to look after me / kept beating me / were using drugs / neglected me... so I bounced from foster home to foster home... then started offending.” etc. It’s very sad really. Early life experiences- it’s where we need to start. " Most crimes are misdemeanours anyway. Another approach would be liaising with police to target known gang members when they're youths and get them off the streets into something like this. Instill in them all the values mentioned before while providing them with some vocational training as well. This would be difficult initially, but if successfully implemented I think would be very effective. | |||
" But it's not just the criminal sentencing that prevents crime. Why do they commit them in the first place? Sure there assholes out there, but predominantly? Lack of education, purpose,belonging,nurture,good parenting, hope, ambition, meaningful relationships, community...the list goes on. Even some of the worst offenders have changed. I guess we need to ask ourselves, do we think focus should be placed on reaction to crime or prevention? Sure its frustrating being a victim, and justice needs to be proportionate and relative but our creaking systems cant deliver in many areas any more. You are spot on - we don’t need to focus on reactionary measures, we need to start with the early life and upbringing of people who become adult offenders. As someone who worked for years as a forensic psychologist in prisons, I can categorically say that humiliation in public is the route only to further perpetuating an antisocial society, and goes no way to addressing *why* people offend. I accept that this isn’t always a view shared by others, but when you’ve seen offenders, from burglars to murderers, make some small steps to being better people with genuine empathy for what they did, and developing a better understanding of how their psychological make up leads them into offending and how to prevent it... you have a whole different perspective. "How can they 'target' the kids who will grow up to be criminals? Some kids from crap homes etc have a fire lit in them and go on to be high flyers. | |||
"I think a novel idea for repeat offenders, especially younger ones that don't commit the most serious crimes of r@pe, murder etc is that they should be forcibly conscripted into the army for a minimum period of two years. Make it tough. Drill into the them the need for discipline, responsibility and respect of authority, all the while giving them some purpose. It would be very interesting to see stats of crime in countries when the draft was compulsory and then figures after it was abolished. This isn’t a bad idea for the younger offenders who commit the more minor offences. As well as the benefits of respect for authority and a sense of purpose, the military can also provide a sense of belonging and safety (from an attachment perspective) that is so sadly missing in many of these young men’s lives. The number of times I’ve heard stories that include the words “...and then I got taken off my mum and dad cos they weren’t fit to look after me / kept beating me / were using drugs / neglected me... so I bounced from foster home to foster home... then started offending.” etc. It’s very sad really. Early life experiences- it’s where we need to start. Most crimes are misdemeanours anyway. Another approach would be liaising with police to target known gang members when they're youths and get them off the streets into something like this. Instill in them all the values mentioned before while providing them with some vocational training as well. This would be difficult initially, but if successfully implemented I think would be very effective." Completely agree. It’s a sense of purpose, direction and belonging that many of these young men are missing due to not having had that provided at home (generally speaking and in my experience). What better place than the military to install those values ... | |||
"I think a novel idea for repeat offenders, especially younger ones that don't commit the most serious crimes of r@pe, murder etc is that they should be forcibly conscripted into the army for a minimum period of two years. Make it tough. Drill into the them the need for discipline, responsibility and respect of authority, all the while giving them some purpose. It would be very interesting to see stats of crime in countries when the draft was compulsory and then figures after it was abolished. This isn’t a bad idea for the younger offenders who commit the more minor offences. As well as the benefits of respect for authority and a sense of purpose, the military can also provide a sense of belonging and safety (from an attachment perspective) that is so sadly missing in many of these young men’s lives. The number of times I’ve heard stories that include the words “...and then I got taken off my mum and dad cos they weren’t fit to look after me / kept beating me / were using drugs / neglected me... so I bounced from foster home to foster home... then started offending.” etc. It’s very sad really. Early life experiences- it’s where we need to start. " Military recruits must undergo a “Moral Character Screening Of Credit and Criminal Background.” ... Fortunately, a criminal record does not automatically bar you from military service. An applicant with a criminal record may obtain a something called a “Criminal Record Waiver”. Key word is Moral Character, which criminals doesn't have. Over an out comrades | |||
"I think a novel idea for repeat offenders, especially younger ones that don't commit the most serious crimes of r@pe, murder etc is that they should be forcibly conscripted into the army for a minimum period of two years. Make it tough. Drill into the them the need for discipline, responsibility and respect of authority, all the while giving them some purpose. It would be very interesting to see stats of crime in countries when the draft was compulsory and then figures after it was abolished." Surely it would have to be a separate army from the one that decent people go into. | |||
"I think a novel idea for repeat offenders, especially younger ones that don't commit the most serious crimes of r@pe, murder etc is that they should be forcibly conscripted into the army for a minimum period of two years. Make it tough. Drill into the them the need for discipline, responsibility and respect of authority, all the while giving them some purpose. It would be very interesting to see stats of crime in countries when the draft was compulsory and then figures after it was abolished. This isn’t a bad idea for the younger offenders who commit the more minor offences. As well as the benefits of respect for authority and a sense of purpose, the military can also provide a sense of belonging and safety (from an attachment perspective) that is so sadly missing in many of these young men’s lives. The number of times I’ve heard stories that include the words “...and then I got taken off my mum and dad cos they weren’t fit to look after me / kept beating me / were using drugs / neglected me... so I bounced from foster home to foster home... then started offending.” etc. It’s very sad really. Early life experiences- it’s where we need to start. Most crimes are misdemeanours anyway. Another approach would be liaising with police to target known gang members when they're youths and get them off the streets into something like this. Instill in them all the values mentioned before while providing them with some vocational training as well. This would be difficult initially, but if successfully implemented I think would be very effective. Completely agree. It’s a sense of purpose, direction and belonging that many of these young men are missing due to not having had that provided at home (generally speaking and in my experience). What better place than the military to install those values ... " | |||
" But it's not just the criminal sentencing that prevents crime. Why do they commit them in the first place? Sure there assholes out there, but predominantly? Lack of education, purpose,belonging,nurture,good parenting, hope, ambition, meaningful relationships, community...the list goes on. Even some of the worst offenders have changed. I guess we need to ask ourselves, do we think focus should be placed on reaction to crime or prevention? Sure its frustrating being a victim, and justice needs to be proportionate and relative but our creaking systems cant deliver in many areas any more. You are spot on - we don’t need to focus on reactionary measures, we need to start with the early life and upbringing of people who become adult offenders. As someone who worked for years as a forensic psychologist in prisons, I can categorically say that humiliation in public is the route only to further perpetuating an antisocial society, and goes no way to addressing *why* people offend. I accept that this isn’t always a view shared by others, but when you’ve seen offenders, from burglars to murderers, make some small steps to being better people with genuine empathy for what they did, and developing a better understanding of how their psychological make up leads them into offending and how to prevent it... you have a whole different perspective.
How can they 'target' the kids who will grow up to be criminals? Some kids from crap homes etc have a fire lit in them and go on to be high flyers."I’m not suggesting you know at the time a child is in an abusive or neglectful home that they are definitely going to become adult offenders. Of course you won’t know that. And you’re right, for some kids, it has the opposite effect (my partner is a prime example - joining the military at 17 to escape a shitty home and making one hell of a success of his life). But what I’m saying is - what harm can it do to address poor home environments, full stop? In what situations can it ever be advantageous to *not* intervene in some way with a child who feels unsafe or mistreated in some way? | |||
"I think a novel idea for repeat offenders, especially younger ones that don't commit the most serious crimes of r@pe, murder etc is that they should be forcibly conscripted into the army for a minimum period of two years. Make it tough. Drill into the them the need for discipline, responsibility and respect of authority, all the while giving them some purpose. It would be very interesting to see stats of crime in countries when the draft was compulsory and then figures after it was abolished. I wouldn't handover automatic rifles to criminals, so many serious crimes by soldier, in spite of years of training and decipline. Where are you getting your statistics from? " More than 2,500 former members of the armed forces entered the prison system last year, with experts warning a disproportionate number were being jailed for serious violence and sexual offences. According to the Ministry of Justice, veterans represent between 4% and 5% of the UK prison population, raising concerns about the impact of the Afghanistan and Iraq campaigns on mental health issues in the armed forces. Source the guardian 18th March 2017 | |||
"I think a novel idea for repeat offenders, especially younger ones that don't commit the most serious crimes of r@pe, murder etc is that they should be forcibly conscripted into the army for a minimum period of two years. Make it tough. Drill into the them the need for discipline, responsibility and respect of authority, all the while giving them some purpose. It would be very interesting to see stats of crime in countries when the draft was compulsory and then figures after it was abolished. Surely it would have to be a separate army from the one that decent people go into. " Why would it have to? If they're separated from their peers and mingle with people who are more "ordinary" it might make them realise quicker that there are viable alternatives to the life they've lead? | |||
"I think a novel idea for repeat offenders, especially younger ones that don't commit the most serious crimes of r@pe, murder etc is that they should be forcibly conscripted into the army for a minimum period of two years. Make it tough. Drill into the them the need for discipline, responsibility and respect of authority, all the while giving them some purpose. It would be very interesting to see stats of crime in countries when the draft was compulsory and then figures after it was abolished." There was actually a research article about this in the economic journal - I am paraphrasing but - " The effects of mandatory military conscription on the education, crime, and labour market show that military service increases the likelihood of future crimes, mostly among males from disadvantaged backgrounds and with a previous criminal history. The only positive effect of conscription for this group is the decrease in disability benefits and the number of sick days." It was research from Sweden where military conscription is mandatory. | |||
"I think a novel idea for repeat offenders, especially younger ones that don't commit the most serious crimes of r@pe, murder etc is that they should be forcibly conscripted into the army for a minimum period of two years. Make it tough. Drill into the them the need for discipline, responsibility and respect of authority, all the while giving them some purpose. It would be very interesting to see stats of crime in countries when the draft was compulsory and then figures after it was abolished. Surely it would have to be a separate army from the one that decent people go into. Why would it have to? If they're separated from their peers and mingle with people who are more "ordinary" it might make them realise quicker that there are viable alternatives to the life they've lead?" Or more efficient and organised ways of committing crimes... | |||
"I think a novel idea for repeat offenders, especially younger ones that don't commit the most serious crimes of r@pe, murder etc is that they should be forcibly conscripted into the army for a minimum period of two years. Make it tough. Drill into the them the need for discipline, responsibility and respect of authority, all the while giving them some purpose. It would be very interesting to see stats of crime in countries when the draft was compulsory and then figures after it was abolished. I wouldn't handover automatic rifles to criminals, so many serious crimes by soldier, in spite of years of training and decipline. Where are you getting your statistics from? More than 2,500 former members of the armed forces entered the prison system last year, with experts warning a disproportionate number were being jailed for serious violence and sexual offences. According to the Ministry of Justice, veterans represent between 4% and 5% of the UK prison population, raising concerns about the impact of the Afghanistan and Iraq campaigns on mental health issues in the armed forces. Source the guardian 18th March 2017" Those are soldiers suffering from PTSD caused by wars they never should have been involved in as they didn't provide any defense of their country. The politicians who sent them there should be in jail as well. No one is mentioning having the people of our topic being trained in the use of firearms (at least not until proof exists they're changed) or being sent to fight illegal foreign wars. | |||
" But it's not just the criminal sentencing that prevents crime. Why do they commit them in the first place? Sure there assholes out there, but predominantly? Lack of education, purpose,belonging,nurture,good parenting, hope, ambition, meaningful relationships, community...the list goes on. Even some of the worst offenders have changed. I guess we need to ask ourselves, do we think focus should be placed on reaction to crime or prevention? Sure its frustrating being a victim, and justice needs to be proportionate and relative but our creaking systems cant deliver in many areas any more. You are spot on - we don’t need to focus on reactionary measures, we need to start with the early life and upbringing of people who become adult offenders. As someone who worked for years as a forensic psychologist in prisons, I can categorically say that humiliation in public is the route only to further perpetuating an antisocial society, and goes no way to addressing *why* people offend. I accept that this isn’t always a view shared by others, but when you’ve seen offenders, from burglars to murderers, make some small steps to being better people with genuine empathy for what they did, and developing a better understanding of how their psychological make up leads them into offending and how to prevent it... you have a whole different perspective.
How can they 'target' the kids who will grow up to be criminals? Some kids from crap homes etc have a fire lit in them and go on to be high flyers.
I’m not suggesting you know at the time a child is in an abusive or neglectful home that they are definitely going to become adult offenders. Of course you won’t know that. And you’re right, for some kids, it has the opposite effect (my partner is a prime example - joining the military at 17 to escape a shitty home and making one hell of a success of his life).
But what I’m saying is - what harm can it do to address poor home environments, full stop? In what situations can it ever be advantageous to *not* intervene in some way with a child who feels unsafe or mistreated in some way? "He has high moral character and ambitious irrespective of situations and condition at early stage of life, that's why I said across the globe army looks fir character, and salute your hubby. If child is neglected, than parents has to punished, so others will not repeat this, your opinion is good, but problem has to solved at root level, fixing branches won't make any difference, you fix one, but failed to fix another, outcome is ZERO. | |||
"I think a novel idea for repeat offenders, especially younger ones that don't commit the most serious crimes of r@pe, murder etc is that they should be forcibly conscripted into the army for a minimum period of two years. Make it tough. Drill into the them the need for discipline, responsibility and respect of authority, all the while giving them some purpose. It would be very interesting to see stats of crime in countries when the draft was compulsory and then figures after it was abolished. I wouldn't handover automatic rifles to criminals, so many serious crimes by soldier, in spite of years of training and decipline. Where are you getting your statistics from? More than 2,500 former members of the armed forces entered the prison system last year, with experts warning a disproportionate number were being jailed for serious violence and sexual offences. According to the Ministry of Justice, veterans represent between 4% and 5% of the UK prison population, raising concerns about the impact of the Afghanistan and Iraq campaigns on mental health issues in the armed forces. Source the guardian 18th March 2017" Do you know anything about the reasons for their offending? PTSD / trauma etc? Veterans are over represented in the prison system because (mostly) they are traumatised not receiving the mental health support they need. Same reason the prison system contains a large proportion of offenders with backgrounds of abuse and neglect as kids - they are traumatised. And as a result they struggle to regulate their emotional responses. There are, I accept, some offenders who don’t fit this particular group (those with antisocial personality disorder for example). But the majority do. | |||
"people steal because they need money for whatever the product is that they need embarassing them doesnt solve the problem, if they need something and they dont have the means to get it they will reoffend they have no choice
Individuals also steal because they are predatory, opportunistic and/or anti-social; they prefer to steal rather than work, like the remainder of the law-abiding population.
Their behaviour is not consistent with that of a civilised society. Sadly, I deal with this on a daily basis. Little Doris, who is 90 odd, is walking to the shops to get her pension money and a tin of cat food for Tiddles who is her only companion since her beloved Alf died years ago. She is walking down the street she has lived in for the last 50 odd years when some feral scumbag in a hoodie mugs her for her money. He doesn't give a shit about Doris, he just knows this is an easy way to make a bit of quick cash. In mugging Doris, he knocks her to the floor. In doing so, Doris breaks her hip and is taken to hospital. Generally, one of two things happen. Either Doris doesn't make it out of hospital because shes too frail to make it post surgery and dies there. Tiddles then starves to death because no one checks her flat as she has no relatives and her carers stop calling because shes in hospital. Or, she makes it out of surgery and comes home to be a recluse as shes too frightened to go out again. The feral scumbag in the hoodie might get arrested and taken to court but some do gooder convinces the magistrate that hes had a "traumatic upbringing" and is a "good person at heart". He gets let off with a punitive sentence and is back on the streets to do it all again to another "Doris". It breaks my heart at times but at other times makes me want to turn into Charles Bronson in "Death Wish".
Yeah happened my grandad, who lived on same road for over 60 years, ended up in hospital from it, but never made it out of hospital. He went on to live for a good few years, but in a care hospital as he went from someone walking to the shops every day to someone who basically needed a wheelchair.
While in hospital his house was broken into and ransacked.
I never had the heart to tell him his house got broken into, I actually told him it was all fine and I was looking after it every day and so were the neighbours.
His story isnt isolated, its actually common, and yeah the police view it as petty crime unless they actually kick the shit out of the old person on the ground and murder them then and there.
If you make it to 85+ these days, then basically someone is gonna push you over and take your money. It being your home for 60 years just lets them learn your patterns, thats all. The Police officers on the ground actually want to see these people locked up and dealt with but they are up against the CPS who some call "couldn't prosecute satan". I'm not a cop and to be honest, couldn't be one due to them being so frustrated and hamstrung but I work closely with them and have a lot of respect for them."Dont know where u live but the police dont care an inch about crime Hubby complained about a drug dealer in the street 4 years of "invetigating" and doing nothing. So after druggy tried to put a brick through window he made a Crime Report and statement..and at the same time complained against the force Result threat by two police officers that either he takes the complaint back or no more policing. Took matters in his own hands - reported the whole issue to his emabassy (dual citizen) and informed land lord that he was accepting money from sources "unknown" and that his bank would have to close all account and mortgage down due to receiving "funds from crime". Result drug dealer been told to leave property "now" and police force facing big problems via Home Office due to complaint from the embassy... The coppers do nothing...too much paperwork to take out criminals...lazy and cant be bothered... In country where hubby grew up they treat small crime as serious as it leads to the next step and criminals go to jail for the time given not 2/3 months holidays but prison with labour and life is life...Think they got it right | |||
"I think a novel idea for repeat offenders, especially younger ones that don't commit the most serious crimes of r@pe, murder etc is that they should be forcibly conscripted into the army for a minimum period of two years. Make it tough. Drill into the them the need for discipline, responsibility and respect of authority, all the while giving them some purpose. It would be very interesting to see stats of crime in countries when the draft was compulsory and then figures after it was abolished. This isn’t a bad idea for the younger offenders who commit the more minor offences. As well as the benefits of respect for authority and a sense of purpose, the military can also provide a sense of belonging and safety (from an attachment perspective) that is so sadly missing in many of these young men’s lives. The number of times I’ve heard stories that include the words “...and then I got taken off my mum and dad cos they weren’t fit to look after me / kept beating me / were using drugs / neglected me... so I bounced from foster home to foster home... then started offending.” etc. It’s very sad really. Early life experiences- it’s where we need to start. Most crimes are misdemeanours anyway. Another approach would be liaising with police to target known gang members when they're youths and get them off the streets into something like this. Instill in them all the values mentioned before while providing them with some vocational training as well. This would be difficult initially, but if successfully implemented I think would be very effective. Completely agree. It’s a sense of purpose, direction and belonging that many of these young men are missing due to not having had that provided at home (generally speaking and in my experience). What better place than the military to install those values ... " | |||
"I think a novel idea for repeat offenders, especially younger ones that don't commit the most serious crimes of r@pe, murder etc is that they should be forcibly conscripted into the army for a minimum period of two years. Make it tough. Drill into the them the need for discipline, responsibility and respect of authority, all the while giving them some purpose. It would be very interesting to see stats of crime in countries when the draft was compulsory and then figures after it was abolished. There was actually a research article about this in the economic journal - I am paraphrasing but - " The effects of mandatory military conscription on the education, crime, and labour market show that military service increases the likelihood of future crimes, mostly among males from disadvantaged backgrounds and with a previous criminal history. The only positive effect of conscription for this group is the decrease in disability benefits and the number of sick days." It was research from Sweden where military conscription is mandatory. " How much of this has to do with soldiers being deployed to war, developing PTSD, and being left with zero mental health support on leaving the military I wonder? It’s a widespread problem currently, and part of the reason some veterans suffer alone, commit suicide, or find themselves in prison. | |||
"I think a novel idea for repeat offenders, especially younger ones that don't commit the most serious crimes of r@pe, murder etc is that they should be forcibly conscripted into the army for a minimum period of two years. Make it tough. Drill into the them the need for discipline, responsibility and respect of authority, all the while giving them some purpose. It would be very interesting to see stats of crime in countries when the draft was compulsory and then figures after it was abolished. I wouldn't handover automatic rifles to criminals, so many serious crimes by soldier, in spite of years of training and decipline. Where are you getting your statistics from? More than 2,500 former members of the armed forces entered the prison system last year, with experts warning a disproportionate number were being jailed for serious violence and sexual offences. According to the Ministry of Justice, veterans represent between 4% and 5% of the UK prison population, raising concerns about the impact of the Afghanistan and Iraq campaigns on mental health issues in the armed forces. Source the guardian 18th March 2017 Those are soldiers suffering from PTSD caused by wars they never should have been involved in as they didn't provide any defense of their country. The politicians who sent them there should be in jail as well. No one is mentioning having the people of our topic being trained in the use of firearms (at least not until proof exists they're changed) or being sent to fight illegal foreign wars." Exactly my point. The system is failing traumatised kids who go on to offend, as well as traumatised soldiers. | |||
"I think a novel idea for repeat offenders, especially younger ones that don't commit the most serious crimes of r@pe, murder etc is that they should be forcibly conscripted into the army for a minimum period of two years. Make it tough. Drill into the them the need for discipline, responsibility and respect of authority, all the while giving them some purpose. It would be very interesting to see stats of crime in countries when the draft was compulsory and then figures after it was abolished. I wouldn't handover automatic rifles to criminals, so many serious crimes by soldier, in spite of years of training and decipline. Where are you getting your statistics from? More than 2,500 former members of the armed forces entered the prison system last year, with experts warning a disproportionate number were being jailed for serious violence and sexual offences. According to the Ministry of Justice, veterans represent between 4% and 5% of the UK prison population, raising concerns about the impact of the Afghanistan and Iraq campaigns on mental health issues in the armed forces. Source the guardian 18th March 2017 Those are soldiers suffering from PTSD caused by wars they never should have been involved in as they didn't provide any defense of their country. The politicians who sent them there should be in jail as well. No one is mentioning having the people of our topic being trained in the use of firearms (at least not until proof exists they're changed) or being sent to fight illegal foreign wars." Post-traumatic stress disorder (PTSD) is an anxiety disorder caused by very stressful, frightening or distressing EVENTS. if you read caps word, it's key word. Can you categories events? | |||
" But it's not just the criminal sentencing that prevents crime. Why do they commit them in the first place? Sure there assholes out there, but predominantly? Lack of education, purpose,belonging,nurture,good parenting, hope, ambition, meaningful relationships, community...the list goes on. Even some of the worst offenders have changed. I guess we need to ask ourselves, do we think focus should be placed on reaction to crime or prevention? Sure its frustrating being a victim, and justice needs to be proportionate and relative but our creaking systems cant deliver in many areas any more. You are spot on - we don’t need to focus on reactionary measures, we need to start with the early life and upbringing of people who become adult offenders. As someone who worked for years as a forensic psychologist in prisons, I can categorically say that humiliation in public is the route only to further perpetuating an antisocial society, and goes no way to addressing *why* people offend. I accept that this isn’t always a view shared by others, but when you’ve seen offenders, from burglars to murderers, make some small steps to being better people with genuine empathy for what they did, and developing a better understanding of how their psychological make up leads them into offending and how to prevent it... you have a whole different perspective.
How can they 'target' the kids who will grow up to be criminals? Some kids from crap homes etc have a fire lit in them and go on to be high flyers.
I’m not suggesting you know at the time a child is in an abusive or neglectful home that they are definitely going to become adult offenders. Of course you won’t know that. And you’re right, for some kids, it has the opposite effect (my partner is a prime example - joining the military at 17 to escape a shitty home and making one hell of a success of his life).
But what I’m saying is - what harm can it do to address poor home environments, full stop? In what situations can it ever be advantageous to *not* intervene in some way with a child who feels unsafe or mistreated in some way?
He has high moral character and ambitious irrespective of situations and condition at early stage of life, that's why I said across the globe army looks fir character, and salute your hubby. If child is neglected, than parents has to punished, so others will not repeat this, your opinion is good, but problem has to solved at root level, fixing branches won't make any difference, you fix one, but failed to fix another, outcome is ZERO. "YES. It has to be solved at the root level, i.e. upbringing. My hubby had protective factors in place that helped him - extended family members and so on. Some kids have nothing but abuse, neglect and fear - this results in their young brains developing a permanent “fight or flight” survival mode, that they take into adulthood and onto the streets. Someone looks at them funny, their survival brain tells them “threat”, so they attack - and end up with a conviction for violence. This is an overly simplified explanation of how trauma affects the brain but it hopefully makes some sense. Start with the home - the child won’t develop a “survival brain”, they’ll develop an emotionally healthy and regulated one. | |||
"I think a novel idea for repeat offenders, especially younger ones that don't commit the most serious crimes of r@pe, murder etc is that they should be forcibly conscripted into the army for a minimum period of two years. Make it tough. Drill into the them the need for discipline, responsibility and respect of authority, all the while giving them some purpose. It would be very interesting to see stats of crime in countries when the draft was compulsory and then figures after it was abolished. I wouldn't handover automatic rifles to criminals, so many serious crimes by soldier, in spite of years of training and decipline. Where are you getting your statistics from? More than 2,500 former members of the armed forces entered the prison system last year, with experts warning a disproportionate number were being jailed for serious violence and sexual offences. According to the Ministry of Justice, veterans represent between 4% and 5% of the UK prison population, raising concerns about the impact of the Afghanistan and Iraq campaigns on mental health issues in the armed forces. Source the guardian 18th March 2017 Do you know anything about the reasons for their offending? PTSD / trauma etc? Veterans are over represented in the prison system because (mostly) they are traumatised not receiving the mental health support they need. Same reason the prison system contains a large proportion of offenders with backgrounds of abuse and neglect as kids - they are traumatised. And as a result they struggle to regulate their emotional responses. There are, I accept, some offenders who don’t fit this particular group (those with antisocial personality disorder for example). But the majority do. " You can, by all means, go and read the article and make your own conclusions as to the baselines and variations of the study. I am simply offering up that, given that their are not many studies on it to determine pre and post effects in any military for those with troublesome or criminal behaviours, this article does provide some evidence to ponder. | |||
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" But it's not just the criminal sentencing that prevents crime. Why do they commit them in the first place? Sure there assholes out there, but predominantly? Lack of education, purpose,belonging,nurture,good parenting, hope, ambition, meaningful relationships, community...the list goes on. Even some of the worst offenders have changed. I guess we need to ask ourselves, do we think focus should be placed on reaction to crime or prevention? Sure its frustrating being a victim, and justice needs to be proportionate and relative but our creaking systems cant deliver in many areas any more. You are spot on - we don’t need to focus on reactionary measures, we need to start with the early life and upbringing of people who become adult offenders. As someone who worked for years as a forensic psychologist in prisons, I can categorically say that humiliation in public is the route only to further perpetuating an antisocial society, and goes no way to addressing *why* people offend. I accept that this isn’t always a view shared by others, but when you’ve seen offenders, from burglars to murderers, make some small steps to being better people with genuine empathy for what they did, and developing a better understanding of how their psychological make up leads them into offending and how to prevent it... you have a whole different perspective.
How can they 'target' the kids who will grow up to be criminals? Some kids from crap homes etc have a fire lit in them and go on to be high flyers.
I’m not suggesting you know at the time a child is in an abusive or neglectful home that they are definitely going to become adult offenders. Of course you won’t know that. And you’re right, for some kids, it has the opposite effect (my partner is a prime example - joining the military at 17 to escape a shitty home and making one hell of a success of his life).
But what I’m saying is - what harm can it do to address poor home environments, full stop? In what situations can it ever be advantageous to *not* intervene in some way with a child who feels unsafe or mistreated in some way? "Ok that makes sense. I was only asking a question though. | |||
" But it's not just the criminal sentencing that prevents crime. Why do they commit them in the first place? Sure there assholes out there, but predominantly? Lack of education, purpose,belonging,nurture,good parenting, hope, ambition, meaningful relationships, community...the list goes on. Even some of the worst offenders have changed. I guess we need to ask ourselves, do we think focus should be placed on reaction to crime or prevention? Sure its frustrating being a victim, and justice needs to be proportionate and relative but our creaking systems cant deliver in many areas any more. You are spot on - we don’t need to focus on reactionary measures, we need to start with the early life and upbringing of people who become adult offenders. As someone who worked for years as a forensic psychologist in prisons, I can categorically say that humiliation in public is the route only to further perpetuating an antisocial society, and goes no way to addressing *why* people offend. I accept that this isn’t always a view shared by others, but when you’ve seen offenders, from burglars to murderers, make some small steps to being better people with genuine empathy for what they did, and developing a better understanding of how their psychological make up leads them into offending and how to prevent it... you have a whole different perspective.
How can they 'target' the kids who will grow up to be criminals? Some kids from crap homes etc have a fire lit in them and go on to be high flyers.
I’m not suggesting you know at the time a child is in an abusive or neglectful home that they are definitely going to become adult offenders. Of course you won’t know that. And you’re right, for some kids, it has the opposite effect (my partner is a prime example - joining the military at 17 to escape a shitty home and making one hell of a success of his life).
But what I’m saying is - what harm can it do to address poor home environments, full stop? In what situations can it ever be advantageous to *not* intervene in some way with a child who feels unsafe or mistreated in some way?
Ok that makes sense.
I was only asking a question though. "I know, I was answering it | |||
"I think a novel idea for repeat offenders, especially younger ones that don't commit the most serious crimes of r@pe, murder etc is that they should be forcibly conscripted into the army for a minimum period of two years. Make it tough. Drill into the them the need for discipline, responsibility and respect of authority, all the while giving them some purpose. It would be very interesting to see stats of crime in countries when the draft was compulsory and then figures after it was abolished. Surely it would have to be a separate army from the one that decent people go into. Why would it have to? If they're separated from their peers and mingle with people who are more "ordinary" it might make them realise quicker that there are viable alternatives to the life they've lead?" It seems unfair that decent people would have to put up with criminal types who don't want to be there. | |||
"I think a novel idea for repeat offenders, especially younger ones that don't commit the most serious crimes of r@pe, murder etc is that they should be forcibly conscripted into the army for a minimum period of two years. Make it tough. Drill into the them the need for discipline, responsibility and respect of authority, all the while giving them some purpose. It would be very interesting to see stats of crime in countries when the draft was compulsory and then figures after it was abolished. I wouldn't handover automatic rifles to criminals, so many serious crimes by soldier, in spite of years of training and decipline. Where are you getting your statistics from? More than 2,500 former members of the armed forces entered the prison system last year, with experts warning a disproportionate number were being jailed for serious violence and sexual offences. According to the Ministry of Justice, veterans represent between 4% and 5% of the UK prison population, raising concerns about the impact of the Afghanistan and Iraq campaigns on mental health issues in the armed forces. Source the guardian 18th March 2017 Do you know anything about the reasons for their offending? PTSD / trauma etc? Veterans are over represented in the prison system because (mostly) they are traumatised not receiving the mental health support they need. Same reason the prison system contains a large proportion of offenders with backgrounds of abuse and neglect as kids - they are traumatised. And as a result they struggle to regulate their emotional responses. There are, I accept, some offenders who don’t fit this particular group (those with antisocial personality disorder for example). But the majority do. " Are you talking about pre or post crime, latter is not relevant once crime is committed, PSTD is absurd word to cover up the neglegency, if you read report only 4 to 5% were involved in crimes, how about rest of 95% population, not human....? | |||
"I think a novel idea for repeat offenders, especially younger ones that don't commit the most serious crimes of r@pe, murder etc is that they should be forcibly conscripted into the army for a minimum period of two years. Make it tough. Drill into the them the need for discipline, responsibility and respect of authority, all the while giving them some purpose. It would be very interesting to see stats of crime in countries when the draft was compulsory and then figures after it was abolished. I wouldn't handover automatic rifles to criminals, so many serious crimes by soldier, in spite of years of training and decipline. Where are you getting your statistics from? More than 2,500 former members of the armed forces entered the prison system last year, with experts warning a disproportionate number were being jailed for serious violence and sexual offences. According to the Ministry of Justice, veterans represent between 4% and 5% of the UK prison population, raising concerns about the impact of the Afghanistan and Iraq campaigns on mental health issues in the armed forces. Source the guardian 18th March 2017 Do you know anything about the reasons for their offending? PTSD / trauma etc? Veterans are over represented in the prison system because (mostly) they are traumatised not receiving the mental health support they need. Same reason the prison system contains a large proportion of offenders with backgrounds of abuse and neglect as kids - they are traumatised. And as a result they struggle to regulate their emotional responses. There are, I accept, some offenders who don’t fit this particular group (those with antisocial personality disorder for example). But the majority do. You can, by all means, go and read the article and make your own conclusions as to the baselines and variations of the study. I am simply offering up that, given that their are not many studies on it to determine pre and post effects in any military for those with troublesome or criminal behaviours, this article does provide some evidence to ponder. " Yep, I’ve studied some of the evidence but not all, and it is largely inconclusive you’re right. It’s an area I’m passionate about because I’ve worked with trauma and offending behaviour for many years. | |||
"I think a novel idea for repeat offenders, especially younger ones that don't commit the most serious crimes of r@pe, murder etc is that they should be forcibly conscripted into the army for a minimum period of two years. Make it tough. Drill into the them the need for discipline, responsibility and respect of authority, all the while giving them some purpose. It would be very interesting to see stats of crime in countries when the draft was compulsory and then figures after it was abolished. I wouldn't handover automatic rifles to criminals, so many serious crimes by soldier, in spite of years of training and decipline. Where are you getting your statistics from? More than 2,500 former members of the armed forces entered the prison system last year, with experts warning a disproportionate number were being jailed for serious violence and sexual offences. According to the Ministry of Justice, veterans represent between 4% and 5% of the UK prison population, raising concerns about the impact of the Afghanistan and Iraq campaigns on mental health issues in the armed forces. Source the guardian 18th March 2017 Do you know anything about the reasons for their offending? PTSD / trauma etc? Veterans are over represented in the prison system because (mostly) they are traumatised not receiving the mental health support they need. Same reason the prison system contains a large proportion of offenders with backgrounds of abuse and neglect as kids - they are traumatised. And as a result they struggle to regulate their emotional responses. There are, I accept, some offenders who don’t fit this particular group (those with antisocial personality disorder for example). But the majority do. Are you talking about pre or post crime, latter is not relevant once crime is committed, PSTD is absurd word to cover up the neglegency, if you read report only 4 to 5% were involved in crimes, how about rest of 95% population, not human....?" Sorry, I’m not sure what you mean? | |||
"I think a novel idea for repeat offenders, especially younger ones that don't commit the most serious crimes of r@pe, murder etc is that they should be forcibly conscripted into the army for a minimum period of two years. Make it tough. Drill into the them the need for discipline, responsibility and respect of authority, all the while giving them some purpose. It would be very interesting to see stats of crime in countries when the draft was compulsory and then figures after it was abolished. Surely it would have to be a separate army from the one that decent people go into. Why would it have to? If they're separated from their peers and mingle with people who are more "ordinary" it might make them realise quicker that there are viable alternatives to the life they've lead? It seems unfair that decent people would have to put up with criminal types who don't want to be there." Some of them would embrace the opportunity to be there. Again, I’ve heard a number of young offenders say to me “I’d have loved to have joined the army but my mum / dad / gran was dead against it”. | |||
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" Yep, I’ve studied some of the evidence but not all, and it is largely inconclusive you’re right. It’s an area I’m passionate about because I’ve worked with trauma and offending behaviour for many years. "You've probably read studies and research by myself and one of my best work colleagues from edmonton who is by far the world source for PTSD and trauma effects. | |||
" But it's not just the criminal sentencing that prevents crime. Why do they commit them in the first place? Sure there assholes out there, but predominantly? Lack of education, purpose,belonging,nurture,good parenting, hope, ambition, meaningful relationships, community...the list goes on. Even some of the worst offenders have changed. I guess we need to ask ourselves, do we think focus should be placed on reaction to crime or prevention? Sure its frustrating being a victim, and justice needs to be proportionate and relative but our creaking systems cant deliver in many areas any more. You are spot on - we don’t need to focus on reactionary measures, we need to start with the early life and upbringing of people who become adult offenders. As someone who worked for years as a forensic psychologist in prisons, I can categorically say that humiliation in public is the route only to further perpetuating an antisocial society, and goes no way to addressing *why* people offend. I accept that this isn’t always a view shared by others, but when you’ve seen offenders, from burglars to murderers, make some small steps to being better people with genuine empathy for what they did, and developing a better understanding of how their psychological make up leads them into offending and how to prevent it... you have a whole different perspective.
How can they 'target' the kids who will grow up to be criminals? Some kids from crap homes etc have a fire lit in them and go on to be high flyers.
I’m not suggesting you know at the time a child is in an abusive or neglectful home that they are definitely going to become adult offenders. Of course you won’t know that. And you’re right, for some kids, it has the opposite effect (my partner is a prime example - joining the military at 17 to escape a shitty home and making one hell of a success of his life).
But what I’m saying is - what harm can it do to address poor home environments, full stop? In what situations can it ever be advantageous to *not* intervene in some way with a child who feels unsafe or mistreated in some way?
Ok that makes sense.
I was only asking a question though.
I know, I was answering it "It felt like you thought I was being arsey/ disagreeing. I wasn't. | |||
"I think a novel idea for repeat offenders, especially younger ones that don't commit the most serious crimes of r@pe, murder etc is that they should be forcibly conscripted into the army for a minimum period of two years. Make it tough. Drill into the them the need for discipline, responsibility and respect of authority, all the while giving them some purpose. It would be very interesting to see stats of crime in countries when the draft was compulsory and then figures after it was abolished. I wouldn't handover automatic rifles to criminals, so many serious crimes by soldier, in spite of years of training and decipline. Where are you getting your statistics from? More than 2,500 former members of the armed forces entered the prison system last year, with experts warning a disproportionate number were being jailed for serious violence and sexual offences. According to the Ministry of Justice, veterans represent between 4% and 5% of the UK prison population, raising concerns about the impact of the Afghanistan and Iraq campaigns on mental health issues in the armed forces. Source the guardian 18th March 2017 Do you know anything about the reasons for their offending? PTSD / trauma etc? Veterans are over represented in the prison system because (mostly) they are traumatised not receiving the mental health support they need. Same reason the prison system contains a large proportion of offenders with backgrounds of abuse and neglect as kids - they are traumatised. And as a result they struggle to regulate their emotional responses. There are, I accept, some offenders who don’t fit this particular group (those with antisocial personality disorder for example). But the majority do. Are you talking about pre or post crime, latter is not relevant once crime is committed, PSTD is absurd word to cover up the neglegency, if you read report only 4 to 5% were involved in crimes, how about rest of 95% population, not human....?" I'm not quite sure on the point you're making sorry, but... Mental health regardless of root cause (PTSD, CPTSDetc ) has a massive impact on irrational out of character behaviour. | |||
" But it's not just the criminal sentencing that prevents crime. Why do they commit them in the first place? Sure there assholes out there, but predominantly? Lack of education, purpose,belonging,nurture,good parenting, hope, ambition, meaningful relationships, community...the list goes on. Even some of the worst offenders have changed. I guess we need to ask ourselves, do we think focus should be placed on reaction to crime or prevention? Sure its frustrating being a victim, and justice needs to be proportionate and relative but our creaking systems cant deliver in many areas any more. You are spot on - we don’t need to focus on reactionary measures, we need to start with the early life and upbringing of people who become adult offenders. As someone who worked for years as a forensic psychologist in prisons, I can categorically say that humiliation in public is the route only to further perpetuating an antisocial society, and goes no way to addressing *why* people offend. I accept that this isn’t always a view shared by others, but when you’ve seen offenders, from burglars to murderers, make some small steps to being better people with genuine empathy for what they did, and developing a better understanding of how their psychological make up leads them into offending and how to prevent it... you have a whole different perspective.
How can they 'target' the kids who will grow up to be criminals? Some kids from crap homes etc have a fire lit in them and go on to be high flyers.
I’m not suggesting you know at the time a child is in an abusive or neglectful home that they are definitely going to become adult offenders. Of course you won’t know that. And you’re right, for some kids, it has the opposite effect (my partner is a prime example - joining the military at 17 to escape a shitty home and making one hell of a success of his life).
But what I’m saying is - what harm can it do to address poor home environments, full stop? In what situations can it ever be advantageous to *not* intervene in some way with a child who feels unsafe or mistreated in some way?
Ok that makes sense.
I was only asking a question though.
I know, I was answering it
It felt like you thought I was being arsey/ disagreeing. I wasn't. "Nope, not in the slightest
I’m just *very* passionate about this topic as I’ve built my career on it | |||
"I think a novel idea for repeat offenders, especially younger ones that don't commit the most serious crimes of r@pe, murder etc is that they should be forcibly conscripted into the army for a minimum period of two years. Make it tough. Drill into the them the need for discipline, responsibility and respect of authority, all the while giving them some purpose. It would be very interesting to see stats of crime in countries when the draft was compulsory and then figures after it was abolished. Surely it would have to be a separate army from the one that decent people go into. Why would it have to? If they're separated from their peers and mingle with people who are more "ordinary" it might make them realise quicker that there are viable alternatives to the life they've lead? It seems unfair that decent people would have to put up with criminal types who don't want to be there." It's a millitary environment. Discipline is always enforced. Facing challenges and difficulties in a group establishes bonds of brotherhood? | |||
"I think a novel idea for repeat offenders, especially younger ones that don't commit the most serious crimes of r@pe, murder etc is that they should be forcibly conscripted into the army for a minimum period of two years. Make it tough. Drill into the them the need for discipline, responsibility and respect of authority, all the while giving them some purpose. It would be very interesting to see stats of crime in countries when the draft was compulsory and then figures after it was abolished. I wouldn't handover automatic rifles to criminals, so many serious crimes by soldier, in spite of years of training and decipline. Where are you getting your statistics from? More than 2,500 former members of the armed forces entered the prison system last year, with experts warning a disproportionate number were being jailed for serious violence and sexual offences. According to the Ministry of Justice, veterans represent between 4% and 5% of the UK prison population, raising concerns about the impact of the Afghanistan and Iraq campaigns on mental health issues in the armed forces. Source the guardian 18th March 2017 Do you know anything about the reasons for their offending? PTSD / trauma etc? Veterans are over represented in the prison system because (mostly) they are traumatised not receiving the mental health support they need. Same reason the prison system contains a large proportion of offenders with backgrounds of abuse and neglect as kids - they are traumatised. And as a result they struggle to regulate their emotional responses. There are, I accept, some offenders who don’t fit this particular group (those with antisocial personality disorder for example). But the majority do. Are you talking about pre or post crime, latter is not relevant once crime is committed, PSTD is absurd word to cover up the neglegency, if you read report only 4 to 5% were involved in crimes, how about rest of 95% population, not human....? I'm not quite sure on the point you're making sorry, but... Mental health regardless of root cause (PTSD, CPTSDetc ) has a massive impact on irrational out of character behaviour." I wasn’t sure of the point either... and you’re right it really does. From the person who breaks down crying seemingly out of the blue, to the person who inexplicably kills another. Mental health will help you understand | |||
"I think a novel idea for repeat offenders, especially younger ones that don't commit the most serious crimes of r@pe, murder etc is that they should be forcibly conscripted into the army for a minimum period of two years. Make it tough. Drill into the them the need for discipline, responsibility and respect of authority, all the while giving them some purpose. It would be very interesting to see stats of crime in countries when the draft was compulsory and then figures after it was abolished. Surely it would have to be a separate army from the one that decent people go into. Why would it have to? If they're separated from their peers and mingle with people who are more "ordinary" it might make them realise quicker that there are viable alternatives to the life they've lead? It seems unfair that decent people would have to put up with criminal types who don't want to be there. It's a millitary environment. Discipline is always enforced. Facing challenges and difficulties in a group establishes bonds of brotherhood?" from the veterans I’ve had dealings with this is so true. | |||
" Yep, I’ve studied some of the evidence but not all, and it is largely inconclusive you’re right. It’s an area I’m passionate about because I’ve worked with trauma and offending behaviour for many years.
You've probably read studies and research by myself and one of my best work colleagues from edmonton who is by far the world source for PTSD and trauma effects. "Quite possibly I have yes. | |||
"I think a novel idea for repeat offenders, especially younger ones that don't commit the most serious crimes of r@pe, murder etc is that they should be forcibly conscripted into the army for a minimum period of two years. Make it tough. Drill into the them the need for discipline, responsibility and respect of authority, all the while giving them some purpose. It would be very interesting to see stats of crime in countries when the draft was compulsory and then figures after it was abolished. Surely it would have to be a separate army from the one that decent people go into. Why would it have to? If they're separated from their peers and mingle with people who are more "ordinary" it might make them realise quicker that there are viable alternatives to the life they've lead? It seems unfair that decent people would have to put up with criminal types who don't want to be there. It's a millitary environment. Discipline is always enforced. Facing challenges and difficulties in a group establishes bonds of brotherhood?" That's interesting, thank you. Never thought of it that way but the decent ones may bond better as they have to join as a group to bring the crap ones up to standard. (For example) | |||
"I think a novel idea for repeat offenders, especially younger ones that don't commit the most serious crimes of r@pe, murder etc is that they should be forcibly conscripted into the army for a minimum period of two years. Make it tough. Drill into the them the need for discipline, responsibility and respect of authority, all the while giving them some purpose. It would be very interesting to see stats of crime in countries when the draft was compulsory and then figures after it was abolished. Surely it would have to be a separate army from the one that decent people go into. Why would it have to? If they're separated from their peers and mingle with people who are more "ordinary" it might make them realise quicker that there are viable alternatives to the life they've lead? It seems unfair that decent people would have to put up with criminal types who don't want to be there. It's a millitary environment. Discipline is always enforced. Facing challenges and difficulties in a group establishes bonds of brotherhood?" There Moto is simple one for all, all for one. The initial 6 months training is all about syncing, March on same speed, think in same wavelength. | |||
"In what capacity? I’m very surprised that you see prison as having “perks”. Like I say, I worked in prisons for years in rehabilitation, and my partner is a prison officer. Neither of us would describe what we worked with and saw and dealt with as “easy” for the prisoners. " It's relative, it's easier than being homeless in winter, agree or disagree? It's easier than sleeping rough in Iraq with people shooting at you? It's easier than being starving all day on the breadline? You thinking it's not easy is just a reflection of you having a comfortable life, many times prison would have been easier for me. I mean it's a contraviction of human rights to have a prisoner slop out. | |||
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"In what capacity? I’m very surprised that you see prison as having “perks”. Like I say, I worked in prisons for years in rehabilitation, and my partner is a prison officer. Neither of us would describe what we worked with and saw and dealt with as “easy” for the prisoners. It's relative, it's easier than being homeless in winter, agree or disagree? It's easier than sleeping rough in Iraq with people shooting at you? It's easier than being starving all day on the breadline? You thinking it's not easy is just a reflection of you having a comfortable life, many times prison would have been easier for me. I mean it's a contraviction of human rights to have a prisoner slop out." You’re right it’s all relative.
For the record - I was saying the opposite of prison being easy. I’ve worked in them - I’ve seen that it’s not. | |||
"It's not the governments job to tell people how to behave. It starts with parents bringing up their children to be respectful of others and to obey the law. If people can't discipline children you get monsters later on who don't give a damn about anything or anyone. If you can't be a good role model for kids don't have them in the first place. It starts when they are young." Yes indeed, it does start when they are young. That’s been my point throughout this thread | |||
"For the record - I was saying the opposite of prison being easy. I’ve worked in them - I’ve seen that it’s not. "Yes but as someone with armed service under my belt, i can not understand why they are given a better life than I had. Because life wasnt that bad, it wasnt the sleeping rough, or having to slop out that broke people it was having to murder or nearly being murdered. People even pay to go on holidays to live rougher than prisons are when they feel like they are losing grip on the basics, sometimes kids getting sent to army camps etc sorts them out. There is even a prison hotel you can go to. I believe there are multiple ones in the uk where people pay to sleep behind bars. My point really is, we should only gurantee their safety from each other, and their life being hard shouldnt be too much of a concern after that, cause there are jobs and people with harder lives, and in my opinion a hard life where you are forced to be honest every day is good for you. | |||
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"Any one who takes a life, is involved in drugs or people trafficking should be put to death. Why do all the liberals keep saving these scum. They are of no use to society so get rid." And if a member of your family made an ill conceived decision and committed one of the above, youd support their execution? How do you devine who's of use to society, and who's a victim of society's failings? | |||
"Any one who takes a life, is involved in drugs or people trafficking should be put to death. Why do all the liberals keep saving these scum. They are of no use to society so get rid." An eye for an eye will make the world blind  | |||
"For the record - I was saying the opposite of prison being easy. I’ve worked in them - I’ve seen that it’s not.
Yes but as someone with armed service under my belt, i can not understand why they are given a better life than I had.
Because life wasnt that bad, it wasnt the sleeping rough, or having to slop out that broke people it was having to murder or nearly being murdered.
People even pay to go on holidays to live rougher than prisons are when they feel like they are losing grip on the basics, sometimes kids getting sent to army camps etc sorts them out.
There is even a prison hotel you can go to. I believe there are multiple ones in the uk where people pay to sleep behind bars.
My point really is, we should only gurantee their safety from each other, and their life being hard shouldnt be too much of a concern after that, cause there are jobs and people with harder lives, and in my opinion a hard life where you are forced to be honest every day is good for you."Further up the thread I have also commented on how UK mental health services haven’t done enough for veterans. That’s slowly changing with newly funded NHS teams who cater specifically for veterans, but there is a very long way to go before it’s satisfactory. So I am very much agreeing with you that the horrific experiences of war are enough to break anyone mentally and that we *should* as a country be doing more. But I don’t agree that prisoners have it easier than veterans, necessarily. As I’ve said repeatedly, those who commit crimes as adults are *generally* (not always I accept) at some point in their lives also victims of abuse. And we are also failing them at an earlier point in their lives, when we could prevent the adulthood life of offending, I feel. | |||
"Any one who takes a life, is involved in drugs or people trafficking should be put to death. Why do all the liberals keep saving these scum. They are of no use to society so get rid. And if a member of your family made an ill conceived decision and committed one of the above, youd support their execution? How do you devine who's of use to society, and who's a victim of society's failings? " We all make our own choices. If we would putting the blame onto so called society we could all live in a far better society. And yes, if a member of the family was to blame then justice should be served. | |||
"Any one who takes a life, is involved in drugs or people trafficking should be put to death. Why do all the liberals keep saving these scum. They are of no use to society so get rid. And if a member of your family made an ill conceived decision and committed one of the above, youd support their execution? How do you devine who's of use to society, and who's a victim of society's failings? We all make our own choices. If we would putting the blame onto so called society we could all live in a far better society. And yes, if a member of the family was to blame then justice should be served." What about those convicted of murder who sit on death row in America for years, and are exonerated at the last minute due to evidence that they were wrongly convicted? The criminal justice system is not perfect. If we start killing everyone, we are not only a hypocritical society, we potentially kill innocent people too. For me, it’s the equivalent of seeing your child slap another child, and whilst slapping them back yourself saying “hitting is wrong, we don’t do that”. It teaches nothing but confused morals. | |||
"It's a millitary environment. Discipline is always enforced. Facing challenges and difficulties in a group establishes bonds of brotherhood?" Discipline is not always enforced, especially if the causation of the discipline problem will reflect badly on senior ranks who have not been performing their own duties to the required standard. The discipline problem may be moved to another unit and quietly forgotten. There's, also, a continuing culture of bullying at a high level and a failure to investigate extremely serious complaints. I would underline the 'extremely' as a number of these complaints have escaped the military mind-set of 'do nothing / don't investigate' and are now police investigations. SS | |||
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"After all the murders and bombings in Sweden recently, the local police had a pizza meal with the gang leaders to see if they could sort things out. It'll be interesting to see if it helps. "Interesting story. | |||
"Any one who takes a life, is involved in drugs or people trafficking should be put to death. Why do all the liberals keep saving these scum. They are of no use to society so get rid. And if a member of your family made an ill conceived decision and committed one of the above, youd support their execution? How do you devine who's of use to society, and who's a victim of society's failings? We all make our own choices. If we would putting the blame onto so called society we could all live in a far better society. And yes, if a member of the family was to blame then justice should be served. What about those convicted of murder who sit on death row in America for years, and are exonerated at the last minute due to evidence that they were wrongly convicted? The criminal justice system is not perfect. If we start killing everyone, we are not only a hypocritical society, we potentially kill innocent people too. For me, it’s the equivalent of seeing your child slap another child, and whilst slapping them back yourself saying “hitting is wrong, we don’t do that”. It teaches nothing but confused morals. " Interestingly and rather sadly there are some neighbourhoods in America where the life expectancy of someone on death row actually goes up compared to other young men where he comes from. | |||
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"There's many reasons why someone might commit crimes. For some a bad upbringing means they never learned the social skills & coping methods to get themselves out of it & repeat the patterns they were brought up with (it's their normal). For others they have undiagnosed mental health issues that inhabit poor emotional control & as an adult you are expected to know why you behave in that way but if there's different brain wiring it's not that easy because you truly don't know why. " These two points are inextricably linked. Children need to be shown *how* to problem solve socially and how to regulate their emotions by being responded to appropriately by their parents. Their healthy brain development depends on it. Where children have not been nurtured and shown this at critical ages of development, the part of the brain responsible for impulse and emotional control (the prefrontal cortex) doesn’t develop in the way it needs to for adult survival. Neurological studies show key differences in the connections between neurones in the prefrontal cortex of those who have experienced childhood trauma / neglect and those who haven’t. As adults, we depend on these connections working correctly to control our emotional and behaviour and be mental well enough to function in a pro social way in society. So it really is no wonder that an overwhelming proportion of the population of our prisons have mental health problems and stories that include childhood neglect and abuse. It’s incredibly sad. | |||
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" Reminds me of an essay I done at school about my if capital punishment was a deterrent or life in prison better " It’s such an interesting topic, evokes very strong feelings in people ... | |||
" Reminds me of an essay I done at school about my if capital punishment was a deterrent or life in prison better It’s such an interesting topic, evokes very strong feelings in people ..." Probably one of the easiest and hardest essays I had to write, in the conclusion I was on both sides but in the end it’s human nature I suppose | |||
" Reminds me of an essay I done at school about my if capital punishment was a deterrent or life in prison better It’s such an interesting topic, evokes very strong feelings in people ... Probably one of the easiest and hardest essays I had to write, in the conclusion I was on both sides but in the end it’s human nature I suppose " Yeah everyone has a different view on it. I guess it’s just harder for people to imagine the benefits and what can be achieved by prison rehabilitation when they haven’t actively seen or been involved in helping it to happen. If that makes sense. | |||
" Reminds me of an essay I done at school about my if capital punishment was a deterrent or life in prison better It’s such an interesting topic, evokes very strong feelings in people ... Probably one of the easiest and hardest essays I had to write, in the conclusion I was on both sides but in the end it’s human nature I suppose Yeah everyone has a different view on it. I guess it’s just harder for people to imagine the benefits and what can be achieved by prison rehabilitation when they haven’t actively seen or been involved in helping it to happen. If that makes sense. " Perfect sense ! Also in USA apparently cost more for death row in dollars than it does for life in prison, without going into to much detail I don’t think short term sentences, on some it scares them straight but a few more or less relish in it, I’ve got one or two ‘pals’ like that | |||
"There's many reasons why someone might commit crimes. For some a bad upbringing means they never learned the social skills & coping methods to get themselves out of it & repeat the patterns they were brought up with (it's their normal). For others they have undiagnosed mental health issues that inhabit poor emotional control & as an adult you are expected to know why you behave in that way but if there's different brain wiring it's not that easy because you truly don't know why. These two points are inextricably linked. Children need to be shown *how* to problem solve socially and how to regulate their emotions by being responded to appropriately by their parents. Their healthy brain development depends on it. Where children have not been nurtured and shown this at critical ages of development, the part of the brain responsible for impulse and emotional control (the prefrontal cortex) doesn’t develop in the way it needs to for adult survival. Neurological studies show key differences in the connections between neurones in the prefrontal cortex of those who have experienced childhood trauma / neglect and those who haven’t. As adults, we depend on these connections working correctly to control our emotional and behaviour and be mental well enough to function in a pro social way in society. So it really is no wonder that an overwhelming proportion of the population of our prisons have mental health problems and stories that include childhood neglect and abuse. It’s incredibly sad. " You missed my point about different wiring, adhd, bipolar etc cannot completely control emotions, impulses or behavior & it's not their fault nor their parents as its genetic. Adhd in particular had a dopomine deficient which means thing that stimulate a "neuro typical" person would hit the sides with them & the prefrontal cortex is under developed which gives way to poor executive functioning (planning & organisation), poor emotional control & increased impulses particularly in high risk situations. But you can thank adhd's for this with how humans have populated the world (explorers), hunted & invented many things you experience today. Bill Gates is one of them, Branson is another. Trauma for an adhd person often comes from being different to start with & trying to fit in, often being taken advantage of as a mix of trying to be "normal" & that spontaneous, thrill seeking hit coupled with poor impulse control. It isn't always a choice, we live in these bodies but they do so much that we don't realise that they do without us being in control. Like do you control how fast you digest food? Or how well you skin regrows after a cut? No, we have some control yes, but not all. | |||
"There's many reasons why someone might commit crimes. For some a bad upbringing means they never learned the social skills & coping methods to get themselves out of it & repeat the patterns they were brought up with (it's their normal). For others they have undiagnosed mental health issues that inhabit poor emotional control & as an adult you are expected to know why you behave in that way but if there's different brain wiring it's not that easy because you truly don't know why. These two points are inextricably linked. Children need to be shown *how* to problem solve socially and how to regulate their emotions by being responded to appropriately by their parents. Their healthy brain development depends on it. Where children have not been nurtured and shown this at critical ages of development, the part of the brain responsible for impulse and emotional control (the prefrontal cortex) doesn’t develop in the way it needs to for adult survival. Neurological studies show key differences in the connections between neurones in the prefrontal cortex of those who have experienced childhood trauma / neglect and those who haven’t. As adults, we depend on these connections working correctly to control our emotional and behaviour and be mental well enough to function in a pro social way in society. So it really is no wonder that an overwhelming proportion of the population of our prisons have mental health problems and stories that include childhood neglect and abuse. It’s incredibly sad. You missed my point about different wiring, adhd, bipolar etc cannot completely control emotions, impulses or behavior & it's not their fault nor their parents as its genetic. Adhd in particular had a dopomine deficient which means thing that stimulate a "neuro typical" person would hit the sides with them & the prefrontal cortex is under developed which gives way to poor executive functioning (planning & organisation), poor emotional control & increased impulses particularly in high risk situations. But you can thank adhd's for this with how humans have populated the world (explorers), hunted & invented many things you experience today. Bill Gates is one of them, Branson is another. Trauma for an adhd person often comes from being different to start with & trying to fit in, often being taken advantage of as a mix of trying to be "normal" & that spontaneous, thrill seeking hit coupled with poor impulse control. It isn't always a choice, we live in these bodies but they do so much that we don't realise that they do without us being in control. Like do you control how fast you digest food? Or how well you skin regrows after a cut? No, we have some control yes, but not all. " As someone with PhD level education in this topic area (also with published research) and having clinical experience in applied psychology for many years. I disagree entirely with a genetic explanation for ADHD. There’s an alternative hypothesis for this difficulty that I personally subscribe to and have studied - related to attachment insecurity and early life experiences. It’s far too complex to get into on here though. The “different wiring and dopamine deficiency” you refer to can be explained as per my original post - early life experiences - good and not so good - shape brain development as much so if not more (in my view) than what a person is born with (ie genetics). It’s not that I missed your point at all - I just believe in a completely different hypothesis for these difficulties based on my own research and professional experience | |||
"There's many reasons why someone might commit crimes. For some a bad upbringing means they never learned the social skills & coping methods to get themselves out of it & repeat the patterns they were brought up with (it's their normal). For others they have undiagnosed mental health issues that inhabit poor emotional control & as an adult you are expected to know why you behave in that way but if there's different brain wiring it's not that easy because you truly don't know why. These two points are inextricably linked. Children need to be shown *how* to problem solve socially and how to regulate their emotions by being responded to appropriately by their parents. Their healthy brain development depends on it. Where children have not been nurtured and shown this at critical ages of development, the part of the brain responsible for impulse and emotional control (the prefrontal cortex) doesn’t develop in the way it needs to for adult survival. Neurological studies show key differences in the connections between neurones in the prefrontal cortex of those who have experienced childhood trauma / neglect and those who haven’t. As adults, we depend on these connections working correctly to control our emotional and behaviour and be mental well enough to function in a pro social way in society. So it really is no wonder that an overwhelming proportion of the population of our prisons have mental health problems and stories that include childhood neglect and abuse. It’s incredibly sad. You missed my point about different wiring, adhd, bipolar etc cannot completely control emotions, impulses or behavior & it's not their fault nor their parents as its genetic. Adhd in particular had a dopomine deficient which means thing that stimulate a "neuro typical" person would hit the sides with them & the prefrontal cortex is under developed which gives way to poor executive functioning (planning & organisation), poor emotional control & increased impulses particularly in high risk situations. But you can thank adhd's for this with how humans have populated the world (explorers), hunted & invented many things you experience today. Bill Gates is one of them, Branson is another. Trauma for an adhd person often comes from being different to start with & trying to fit in, often being taken advantage of as a mix of trying to be "normal" & that spontaneous, thrill seeking hit coupled with poor impulse control. It isn't always a choice, we live in these bodies but they do so much that we don't realise that they do without us being in control. Like do you control how fast you digest food? Or how well you skin regrows after a cut? No, we have some control yes, but not all. " Also - a few last thoughts before I sign off this topic as debating such complex ideas on here is near impossible! You refer to parental blame (“it’s not the parents fault”) - the attachment insecurity hypothesis is not about apportioning blame to the parents. There are a number of legitimate and unfortunate reasons why a parent may struggle to fully meet their child’s early attachment needs that do not include purposeful abuse or neglect. Sometimes a parent is unwell, or in some other way just not quite emotionally attuned to their child... my whole standpoint on this has been to intervene from an earlier point to support both the child and the parents (so the family as a whole) to help them to meet their child’s needs as best the can, whatever help that may look like. It’s not striving for about “perfect” parenting or a blame philosophy- it’s about a concept of “good enough” parenting (see attachment literature). I’m not sure about your point re control and how it’s relevant - I didn’t once say we can completely control all of our behaviour (particularly biological functions such as digestion), nor did I say people are always fully in control of their emotionally driven behaviour - I said the exact opposite. I said trauma can result in the exact opposite of emotional control because the prefrontal cortex development is affected in critical ways at a critical time due to early life attachment experiences. Anyway, as I said ... signing off now as far too complex. Happy to discuss further by PM if you’re interested | |||
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"I concur " Thank you Dr Young Cub  | |||
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"As a victim of a violent crime I would have liked to have seen my attacker serve more then 5 years out in 3 for good behavior. Criminals serve their time. Victims carry physical and mental scars with them for a lifetime in some cases." True. Most people seem to sympathize a lot with criminals while they don't care about how the victims feel about it. | |||
"As a victim of a violent crime I would have liked to have seen my attacker serve more then 5 years out in 3 for good behavior. Criminals serve their time. Victims carry physical and mental scars with them for a lifetime in some cases. True. Most people seem to sympathize a lot with criminals while they don't care about how the victims feel about it." And some people have empathy for both sides and pride themselves on being able to rehabilitate offenders to also achieve a level of victim empathy. Surely not a bad thing | |||
"They should be the bitch of the person they carried out the crime too " | |||
"As a victim of a violent crime I would have liked to have seen my attacker serve more then 5 years out in 3 for good behavior. Criminals serve their time. Victims carry physical and mental scars with them for a lifetime in some cases. True. Most people seem to sympathize a lot with criminals while they don't care about how the victims feel about it." Yes, it can seem that way. But it may sound like a contradiction in terms, but the two things need dealing with separately. The victim needs to feel justice has been done and supported. The offender needs to be seen to make amends to the victim, but also root causes as to why they offend need to be addressed. | |||
"As a victim of a violent crime I would have liked to have seen my attacker serve more then 5 years out in 3 for good behavior. Criminals serve their time. Victims carry physical and mental scars with them for a lifetime in some cases. True. Most people seem to sympathize a lot with criminals while they don't care about how the victims feel about it. Yes, it can seem that way. But it may sound like a contradiction in terms, but the two things need dealing with separately. The victim needs to feel justice has been done and supported. The offender needs to be seen to make amends to the victim, but also root causes as to why they offend need to be addressed. " Agreed - they aren’t mutually exclusive either. You can empathise deeply with victims of horrific crimes and still have the ability to work constructively with offenders to support their rehabilitation. Which always involves an element of supporting them to develop victim empathy, as well as helping them to gain a better understanding of their offending behaviour and where it comes from. | |||
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"A thief stole from his employ near me. The boss tied his hands behinds his back and put a sign around his neck saying 'Thief' and marched him up and down the high street. The employer got charged and had to pay the thief damages. I don't know if the thief was charged." And there layeth the problem. You havent provided factual evidence (probably hearsay) The employer decided they could invoke a punishment of his choice. Great system...that wont degenerate into anarchy!! | |||
"A thief stole from his employ near me. The boss tied his hands behinds his back and put a sign around his neck saying 'Thief' and marched him up and down the high street. The employer got charged and had to pay the thief damages. I don't know if the thief was charged. And there layeth the problem. You havent provided factual evidence (probably hearsay) The employer decided they could invoke a punishment of his choice. Great system...that wont degenerate into anarchy!!" It was in the local papers a year or two back. I will look it up. And yes I agree with you. | |||
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"The thief stole a cheque for a few hundred pounds and the employer had to pay him 13000 in compensation I googled Witham Thief March It made BBC and Telegraph etc" I get it. The offender is out of order and abusing trust. The employer is furious and takes action. It's just a bad thing to have....emotive people invoking justice as they see for. That's back to the wild west? | |||
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"As a victim of a violent crime I would have liked to have seen my attacker serve more then 5 years out in 3 for good behavior. Criminals serve their time. Victims carry physical and mental scars with them for a lifetime in some cases. True. Most people seem to sympathize a lot with criminals while they don't care about how the victims feel about it. Yes, it can seem that way. But it may sound like a contradiction in terms, but the two things need dealing with separately. The victim needs to feel justice has been done and supported. The offender needs to be seen to make amends to the victim, but also root causes as to why they offend need to be addressed. Agreed - they aren’t mutually exclusive either. You can empathise deeply with victims of horrific crimes and still have the ability to work constructively with offenders to support their rehabilitation. Which always involves an element of supporting them to develop victim empathy, as well as helping them to gain a better understanding of their offending behaviour and where it comes from. "I understand this point of view. But there are cases where it just doesn't make sense. Consider the Rochdale grooming gang case. Apparently some criminals have been released recently and they have actually come face to face with the victims. The victims have gone through trauma just by seeing them again. Now these are victims who were **ped as kids repeatedly by those men. Do you really think the victims have to go through this? And these perpetrators are all from families which are doing financially well and many of them are married and with kids? They had a great life right around them. The kind of life millions would dream of having. Still they thought that it was a good idea to commit this crime. They had a chance to live a good life. They chose to mess it up. I don't see a point in empathising with them. Why should the victims go through the mental turmoil again? I am with you on poverty driven crimes though. They deserve a second chance. | |||
"I'm sure most of you would agree with me and get a little annoyed at the leniency of fines and sentences for some criminals. Some just get away with a 'slap on the wrist.' I had a motorbike stolen a few years ago and the theif got caught, but for whatever reason the police sent me a letter to say they wouldn't take the matter any further. The thief, got away with it scott free and in my opinion knowing that they had got away with it would probably steal again. Do you think public humiliation would help to stop people re-offending? Or could it be used as punishment for minor crimes? Like using stocks as they used to with the town folk throwing rotten vegetables at the offenders. " Firstly, I’d like to see passports treated as a privilege and not a right. People who can’t behave themselves should have that right removed. | |||
"As a victim of a violent crime I would have liked to have seen my attacker serve more then 5 years out in 3 for good behavior. Criminals serve their time. Victims carry physical and mental scars with them for a lifetime in some cases. True. Most people seem to sympathize a lot with criminals while they don't care about how the victims feel about it. Yes, it can seem that way. But it may sound like a contradiction in terms, but the two things need dealing with separately. The victim needs to feel justice has been done and supported. The offender needs to be seen to make amends to the victim, but also root causes as to why they offend need to be addressed. Agreed - they aren’t mutually exclusive either. You can empathise deeply with victims of horrific crimes and still have the ability to work constructively with offenders to support their rehabilitation. Which always involves an element of supporting them to develop victim empathy, as well as helping them to gain a better understanding of their offending behaviour and where it comes from.
I understand this point of view. But there are cases where it just doesn't make sense. Consider the Rochdale grooming gang case. Apparently some criminals have been released recently and they have actually come face to face with the victims. The victims have gone through trauma just by seeing them again. Now these are victims who were **ped as kids repeatedly by those men.
Do you really think the victims have to go through this? And these perpetrators are all from families which are doing financially well and many of them are married and with kids? They had a great life right around them. The kind of life millions would dream of having. Still they thought that it was a good idea to commit this crime. They had a chance to live a good life. They chose to mess it up. I don't see a point in empathising with them. Why should the victims go through the mental turmoil again?
I am with you on poverty driven crimes though. They deserve a second chance. "In my case, the perpetrator violated a restraining order and was terminated by the police department for anger related issues. I received no restitution from the state for damages to my car and my home. The system is broken and in desperate need of repair. | |||
"people steal because they need money for whatever the product is that they need embarassing them doesnt solve the problem, if they need something and they dont have the means to get it they will reoffend they have no choice "Try living in the real world. Few people steal out of necessity. Motorbike and car thieves steal them for the thrill of the chase, nothing more and nothing less. | |||
" In my case, the perpetrator violated a restraining order and was terminated by the police department for anger related issues. I received no restitution from the state for damages to my car and my home. The system is broken and in desperate need of repair. " Exactly. People come up with numbers like percentage of criminals who were repeat offenders. My view is that even if one person committed a violent crime after being given a second chance, we essentially fucked up the life of an innocent law abiding person just to give a happy life for a criminal. There is no justice in it. Most people who keep saying that victims could be fixed by counseling and stuff like that have never been around anyone who has really been a victim of such crimes. Sorry about what happened to you though. | |||
" In my case, the perpetrator violated a restraining order and was terminated by the police department for anger related issues. I received no restitution from the state for damages to my car and my home. The system is broken and in desperate need of repair. Exactly. People come up with numbers like percentage of criminals who were repeat offenders. My view is that even if one person committed a violent crime after being given a second chance, we essentially fucked up the life of an innocent law abiding person just to give a happy life for a criminal. There is no justice in it. Most people who keep saying that victims could be fixed by counseling and stuff like that have never been around anyone who has really been a victim of such crimes. Sorry about what happened to you though." Thank you. | |||
" Firstly, I’d like to see passports treated as a privilege and not a right. People who can’t behave themselves should have that right removed. " An immigrant myself. But I love this idea. | |||
"As a victim of a violent crime I would have liked to have seen my attacker serve more then 5 years out in 3 for good behavior. Criminals serve their time. Victims carry physical and mental scars with them for a lifetime in some cases. True. Most people seem to sympathize a lot with criminals while they don't care about how the victims feel about it. Yes, it can seem that way. But it may sound like a contradiction in terms, but the two things need dealing with separately. The victim needs to feel justice has been done and supported. The offender needs to be seen to make amends to the victim, but also root causes as to why they offend need to be addressed. Agreed - they aren’t mutually exclusive either. You can empathise deeply with victims of horrific crimes and still have the ability to work constructively with offenders to support their rehabilitation. Which always involves an element of supporting them to develop victim empathy, as well as helping them to gain a better understanding of their offending behaviour and where it comes from.
I understand this point of view. But there are cases where it just doesn't make sense. Consider the Rochdale grooming gang case. Apparently some criminals have been released recently and they have actually come face to face with the victims. The victims have gone through trauma just by seeing them again. Now these are victims who were **ped as kids repeatedly by those men.
Do you really think the victims have to go through this? And these perpetrators are all from families which are doing financially well and many of them are married and with kids? They had a great life right around them. The kind of life millions would dream of having. Still they thought that it was a good idea to commit this crime. They had a chance to live a good life. They chose to mess it up. I don't see a point in empathising with them. Why should the victims go through the mental turmoil again?
I am with you on poverty driven crimes though. They deserve a second chance. "No, I obviously do not think victims should have to be retraumatised by offenders. I never once said anything remotely close to that. I said that as a forensic psychologist I very much advocate and support the view that *some* (by no means all) offenders can be successfully rehabilitated. Those you are referring to you in your very specific example, it sounds like they wouldn’t come under this category. People offend for a multitude of reasons and have had a range of backgrounds. Some will be invested and engaged in understanding their offending and willing to complete offence focussed interventions to make meaningful life changes. Some will be offered this opportunity and tell you to fuck off (I’ve experienced the latter less often, but those type of offenders do sadly exist). Obviously, the latter are rarely successfully rehabilitated and they usually (but not exclusively) have some form of antisocial personality disorder / psychopathic traits. Those without such diagnoses, who have experienced trauma and attachment insecurity as children and whose offending can be explained more in terms of a mental illness / emotional dysregulation rather than a personality disorder or psychopathy - this is the group we tend to more successfully treat. | |||
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"Everyone has the right to state their opinions on the fora, so even on topics you feel passionate about, live and let live if someone holds an alternative view to you. "Not sure what you mean. I was responding to someone’s reply to my comment | |||
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"The coppers are useless in this country make you do all the work yourself get cctv get witnesses all that dunno why they bother paying them" Bit harsh Sure any of us would give up if even when you catch someone bang to rights, get them charged only to see it all thrown away by a system geared up to protect the criminal. They should make solicitors face the same sentence as their clients. The tables would soon turn. | |||
"The coppers are useless in this country make you do all the work yourself get cctv get witnesses all that dunno why they bother paying them" Nonsense. The only time they ask the victim to provide cctv is if it’s on their own system, in which case how else are they supposed to get it and victims get asked if they know of any witnesses but they don’t get asked to go and get statements off them. Daily mail reader by any chance? | |||
"As a victim of a violent crime I would have liked to have seen my attacker serve more then 5 years out in 3 for good behavior. Criminals serve their time. Victims carry physical and mental scars with them for a lifetime in some cases. True. Most people seem to sympathize a lot with criminals while they don't care about how the victims feel about it. Yes, it can seem that way. But it may sound like a contradiction in terms, but the two things need dealing with separately. The victim needs to feel justice has been done and supported. The offender needs to be seen to make amends to the victim, but also root causes as to why they offend need to be addressed. Agreed - they aren’t mutually exclusive either. You can empathise deeply with victims of horrific crimes and still have the ability to work constructively with offenders to support their rehabilitation. Which always involves an element of supporting them to develop victim empathy, as well as helping them to gain a better understanding of their offending behaviour and where it comes from.
I understand this point of view. But there are cases where it just doesn't make sense. Consider the Rochdale grooming gang case. Apparently some criminals have been released recently and they have actually come face to face with the victims. The victims have gone through trauma just by seeing them again. Now these are victims who were **ped as kids repeatedly by those men.
Do you really think the victims have to go through this? And these perpetrators are all from families which are doing financially well and many of them are married and with kids? They had a great life right around them. The kind of life millions would dream of having. Still they thought that it was a good idea to commit this crime. They had a chance to live a good life. They chose to mess it up. I don't see a point in empathising with them. Why should the victims go through the mental turmoil again?
I am with you on poverty driven crimes though. They deserve a second chance.
No, I obviously do not think victims should have to be retraumatised by offenders. I never once said anything remotely close to that. I said that as a forensic psychologist I very much advocate and support the view that *some* (by no means all) offenders can be successfully rehabilitated. Those you are referring to you in your very specific example, it sounds like they wouldn’t come under this category. People offend for a multitude of reasons and have had a range of backgrounds. Some will be invested and engaged in understanding their offending and willing to complete offence focussed interventions to make meaningful life changes. Some will be offered this opportunity and tell you to fuck off (I’ve experienced the latter less often, but those type of offenders do sadly exist). Obviously, the latter are rarely successfully rehabilitated and they usually (but not exclusively) have some form of antisocial personality disorder / psychopathic traits. Those without such diagnoses, who have experienced trauma and attachment insecurity as children and whose offending can be explained more in terms of a mental illness / emotional dysregulation rather than a personality disorder or psychopathy - this is the group we tend to more successfully treat. "I concur, I was definitely not referring to serious sexual offenders/groomers. These are usually planned, intended & meant, especially with children involved...rarely rehabilitated which is why they are kept far away from even the general population of the prison...even offenders see this as disgusting & will "take the out" of society completely. Murder/gbh despite horrific can be caused by 1 foul moment with or without an implement, so I'm iffy with that one as each case is so different and should be treated as such. With all the genetic/mental health discussions earlier we were both (I believe) referring to more petty type crimes & young offenders. I have been a victim of serious crime & sexual crimes more than once, personality I found police useless & yes I have issues from those experiences. I have also been on the other side where I've been accused of, arrested & charged on false means. so I can see which both victims & criminals are coming from in some cases as well as being able to see the social issues that play into both sides too. | |||
"As a victim of a violent crime I would have liked to have seen my attacker serve more then 5 years out in 3 for good behavior. Criminals serve their time. Victims carry physical and mental scars with them for a lifetime in some cases. True. Most people seem to sympathize a lot with criminals while they don't care about how the victims feel about it. Yes, it can seem that way. But it may sound like a contradiction in terms, but the two things need dealing with separately. The victim needs to feel justice has been done and supported. The offender needs to be seen to make amends to the victim, but also root causes as to why they offend need to be addressed. Agreed - they aren’t mutually exclusive either. You can empathise deeply with victims of horrific crimes and still have the ability to work constructively with offenders to support their rehabilitation. Which always involves an element of supporting them to develop victim empathy, as well as helping them to gain a better understanding of their offending behaviour and where it comes from.
I understand this point of view. But there are cases where it just doesn't make sense. Consider the Rochdale grooming gang case. Apparently some criminals have been released recently and they have actually come face to face with the victims. The victims have gone through trauma just by seeing them again. Now these are victims who were **ped as kids repeatedly by those men.
Do you really think the victims have to go through this? And these perpetrators are all from families which are doing financially well and many of them are married and with kids? They had a great life right around them. The kind of life millions would dream of having. Still they thought that it was a good idea to commit this crime. They had a chance to live a good life. They chose to mess it up. I don't see a point in empathising with them. Why should the victims go through the mental turmoil again?
I am with you on poverty driven crimes though. They deserve a second chance.
No, I obviously do not think victims should have to be retraumatised by offenders. I never once said anything remotely close to that. I said that as a forensic psychologist I very much advocate and support the view that *some* (by no means all) offenders can be successfully rehabilitated. Those you are referring to you in your very specific example, it sounds like they wouldn’t come under this category. People offend for a multitude of reasons and have had a range of backgrounds. Some will be invested and engaged in understanding their offending and willing to complete offence focussed interventions to make meaningful life changes. Some will be offered this opportunity and tell you to fuck off (I’ve experienced the latter less often, but those type of offenders do sadly exist). Obviously, the latter are rarely successfully rehabilitated and they usually (but not exclusively) have some form of antisocial personality disorder / psychopathic traits. Those without such diagnoses, who have experienced trauma and attachment insecurity as children and whose offending can be explained more in terms of a mental illness / emotional dysregulation rather than a personality disorder or psychopathy - this is the group we tend to more successfully treat.
I concur, I was definitely not referring to serious sexual offenders/groomers. These are usually planned, intended & meant, especially with children involved...rarely rehabilitated which is why they are kept far away from even the general population of the prison...even offenders see this as disgusting & will "take the out" of society completely.
Murder/gbh despite horrific can be caused by 1 foul moment with or without an implement, so I'm iffy with that one as each case is so different and should be treated as such.
With all the genetic/mental health discussions earlier we were both (I believe) referring to more petty type crimes & young offenders.
I have been a victim of serious crime & sexual crimes more than once, personality I found police useless & yes I have issues from those experiences. I have also been on the other side where I've been accused of, arrested & charged on false means.
so I can see which both victims & criminals are coming from in some cases as well as being able to see the social issues that play into both sides too." I think your final paragraph here sums up what I’ve been trying to say - there are 2 sides to an offence situation. Being able to step back and reflect on both sides (as opposed to having empathy only for a victim whilst dismissing the offender entirely) is what I’ve built my career on. It’s served me well thus far | |||
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