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What is morality?
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By (user no longer on site) OP
over a year ago
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My lease agreement has a morality clause. I shall not do anything immoral.
This has me scratching my head. Because morality is subjective.
What do people think? Just because someone rents you a property (or employs you for that matter) do you think it gives them the right to dictate your behaviour? |
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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago
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 ok ive heard everything now! What they gonna do give u 100 lashings brand u with the scarlet letter and shun u from the church? Lol
Guess u cant host any swinger parties then lol |
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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago
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You ALWAYS have the right to be immoral, the landlord just has the right to ask you to leave if he or she isn't happy with what you're doing in his/her house. Seems fair enough to me - if I rented a house and someone started a brothel in it and attracting compliants, I'd want the morality clause....
You also have the right to not sign the contract and live elsewhere....
Peace and thought
Steve x |
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I'd say it gives you a get-out-of-jail-free card. It's not defined in law what morality is, so if he accuses you of something, it's up to him to prove it's immoral. That sounds pretty damn difficult to me, unless he defines immorality as illegality but then he would have to demonstrate how the two are equivalent.
It's an interesting question what morality is, philosophically speaking. It used to be "What God says" but that doesn't cut it any more. I don't suppose anybody wants to go down that rabbit hole! |
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"You ALWAYS have the right to be immoral, the landlord just has the right to ask you to leave if he or she isn't happy with what you're doing in his/her house. Seems fair enough to me - if I rented a house and someone started a brothel in it and attracting compliants, I'd want the morality clause....
You also have the right to not sign the contract and live elsewhere....
Peace and thought
Steve x"
I completely concur  |
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Morality is a principles concerning distinguish between good and evil set up by ruling cast to control so called lesser man.
And yes it is pretty subjective and the line between good and evil is really thin  |
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By *a LunaWoman
over a year ago
South Wales |
"They just don’t want you turning it into a crack den or a house or a knocking shop.
Common sense stuff really. Nothing too heavy."
House of ill repute i was trying to say. But knocking shop is the same thing so... |
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By (user no longer on site) OP
over a year ago
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"You ALWAYS have the right to be immoral, the landlord just has the right to ask you to leave if he or she isn't happy with what you're doing in his/her house. Seems fair enough to me - if I rented a house and someone started a brothel in it and attracting compliants, I'd want the morality clause....
You also have the right to not sign the contract and live elsewhere....
Peace and thought
Steve x"
If had been given two equal options, one with the clause and one without I'd have taken the one without.
I live with my girlfriend. We are not married and therefore living in sin. This immoral to a lot of people.
The point is I could be doing things that are totally immoral in my bedroom but no one would ever know. So why is it a problem? |
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By (user no longer on site) OP
over a year ago
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"Morality is a principles concerning distinguish between good and evil set up by ruling cast to control so called lesser man.
And yes it is pretty subjective and the line between good and evil is really thin "
To quote Socrates "What is good Phaedrus?"
One man's meat is another man's poison. |
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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago
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I'd imagine it's just a fancy way of saying not to do anything illegal. Like others have said if it went to court he'd have to prove his case and convince them anything in a grey area is unacceptable, it doesn't really mean much. |
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"You ALWAYS have the right to be immoral, the landlord just has the right to ask you to leave if he or she isn't happy with what you're doing in his/her house. Seems fair enough to me - if I rented a house and someone started a brothel in it and attracting compliants, I'd want the morality clause....
You also have the right to not sign the contract and live elsewhere....
Peace and thought
Steve x
If had been given two equal options, one with the clause and one without I'd have taken the one without.
I live with my girlfriend. We are not married and therefore living in sin. This immoral to a lot of people.
The point is I could be doing things that are totally immoral in my bedroom but no one would ever know. So why is it a problem?"
I don't honestly believe your landlord will want to kick you out because he / she thinks you might be sleeping with your girlfriend in the bedroom
You may want to refrain from kitchen worktop shagging though... |
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Next one for you
Prostitute job is considered by most as morally wrong, but
If prostitute pray to God, it's considered as a good moral deed.
But what if prostitute pray to God to have more clients. Is it morally good or bad?  |
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By (user no longer on site) OP
over a year ago
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"They just don’t want you turning it into a crack den or a house or a knocking shop.
Common sense stuff really. Nothing too heavy.
House of ill repute i was trying to say. But knocking shop is the same thing so..."
Illegal is different. Illegal is defined in a book of laws. I know what's illegal and what's immoral.
Immoral depends on who you talk to.
For example it's not ok for me to have sex with another man in the privacy of my own bedroom..... but... it's ok for a d*unk couple on an easyjet flight to have sex in front of people's children..... |
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By (user no longer on site) OP
over a year ago
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"Next one for you
Prostitute job is considered by most as morally wrong, but
If prostitute pray to God, it's considered as a good moral deed.
But what if prostitute pray to God to have more clients. Is it morally good or bad? "
It depends on the culture. If you go to Amsterdam the view is very different to the view in say some Arab nations.
But what if a prostitute does what she does to put bread on her kids table and ensure that they get a good education. Is that so reprehensible?
So what I am saying is if your behaviour effects a person's business or rental property then fair enough. But the morality clause is basically dictating your right to choose what you do with your body. Should your employer or landlord have the right to govern your morality? And if so what constitutes immoral? |
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By (user no longer on site) OP
over a year ago
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"Yes it's very much subjective. Did it give examples?  "
Nope. I rather suspect that if we had said we are swingers they wouldn't have let the property. |
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By (user no longer on site) OP
over a year ago
|
"You ALWAYS have the right to be immoral, the landlord just has the right to ask you to leave if he or she isn't happy with what you're doing in his/her house. Seems fair enough to me - if I rented a house and someone started a brothel in it and attracting compliants, I'd want the morality clause....
You also have the right to not sign the contract and live elsewhere....
Peace and thought
Steve x
If had been given two equal options, one with the clause and one without I'd have taken the one without.
I live with my girlfriend. We are not married and therefore living in sin. This immoral to a lot of people.
The point is I could be doing things that are totally immoral in my bedroom but no one would ever know. So why is it a problem?
I don't honestly believe your landlord will want to kick you out because he / she thinks you might be sleeping with your girlfriend in the bedroom
You may want to refrain from kitchen worktop shagging though..."
Lol
Yeah but if you had asked someone 80 years ago if it was immoral then there would have been tut tuts. Someone may have complained.
So where is the line?
When our lovely press decided to put the faces of swingers in their newspapers people lost their jobs for bringing their employers into disrepute. I don't think someone should lose their job for going to swingfields but apparently at least two employers did.
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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago
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"You ALWAYS have the right to be immoral, the landlord just has the right to ask you to leave if he or she isn't happy with what you're doing in his/her house. Seems fair enough to me - if I rented a house and someone started a brothel in it and attracting compliants, I'd want the morality clause....
You also have the right to not sign the contract and live elsewhere....
Peace and thought
Steve x"
Starting a brothel on my property wouldn’t bother me too much, at least the rent would be paid and the place, hopefully looked after. However, someone dealing drugs would have me throwing them out as soon as I could. Personal morals? |
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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago
|
"You ALWAYS have the right to be immoral, the landlord just has the right to ask you to leave if he or she isn't happy with what you're doing in his/her house. Seems fair enough to me - if I rented a house and someone started a brothel in it and attracting compliants, I'd want the morality clause....
You also have the right to not sign the contract and live elsewhere....
Peace and thought
Steve x
If had been given two equal options, one with the clause and one without I'd have taken the one without.
I live with my girlfriend. We are not married and therefore living in sin. This immoral to a lot of people.
The point is I could be doing things that are totally immoral in my bedroom but no one would ever know. So why is it a problem?
I don't honestly believe your landlord will want to kick you out because he / she thinks you might be sleeping with your girlfriend in the bedroom
You may want to refrain from kitchen worktop shagging though...
Lol
Yeah but if you had asked someone 80 years ago if it was immoral then there would have been tut tuts. Someone may have complained.
So where is the line?
When our lovely press decided to put the faces of swingers in their newspapers people lost their jobs for bringing their employers into disrepute. I don't think someone should lose their job for going to swingfields but apparently at least two employers did.
"
Time line innit 
Steve x |
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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago
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"You ALWAYS have the right to be immoral, the landlord just has the right to ask you to leave if he or she isn't happy with what you're doing in his/her house. Seems fair enough to me - if I rented a house and someone started a brothel in it and attracting compliants, I'd want the morality clause....
You also have the right to not sign the contract and live elsewhere....
Peace and thought
Steve x
Starting a brothel on my property wouldn’t bother me too much, at least the rent would be paid and the place, hopefully looked after. However, someone dealing drugs would have me throwing them out as soon as I could. Personal morals?"
So as landlords with differing morals, we'd still both want a morality clause....
(I'm not a landlord btw)
Steve x |
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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago
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"You ALWAYS have the right to be immoral, the landlord just has the right to ask you to leave if he or she isn't happy with what you're doing in his/her house. Seems fair enough to me - if I rented a house and someone started a brothel in it and attracting compliants, I'd want the morality clause....
You also have the right to not sign the contract and live elsewhere....
Peace and thought
Steve x
Starting a brothel on my property wouldn’t bother me too much, at least the rent would be paid and the place, hopefully looked after. However, someone dealing drugs would have me throwing them out as soon as I could. Personal morals?
So as landlords with differing morals, we'd still both want a morality clause....
(I'm not a landlord btw)
Steve x "
Yep. Neither am I.  |
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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago
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"It means you must not covet your neighbours donkey
Thank goodness for goatsex
Goats have freaky eyes...
Elongated pupils innit "
No idea. I like looking into my lover’s eyes but must admit, goats just don’t do it for me. |
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No expert but from a legal perspective (and from a criminal stand point) they have a reasonable person test. Imagine a straw poll off a 100 people, would 51% find it moral/immoral.
Obviously that pool of people changes. For example. Would a 100 swingers find orgys moral/immoral?
So they use a broad cross section of the populous.
They use this standard when it comes to certain driving offences too. |
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By (user no longer on site) OP
over a year ago
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"In court the morality clause is normally used for prostitution "
So this is a good example.
In a hypothetical situation one woman uses prostitution to feed her kids by charging for sex and is immoral. Another woman does the same thing for pleasure but doesn't charge and is moral?
I once read an article by a woman who estimates that she slept with 300 men in her first term at uni. Apparently this sort of behaviour is considered socially acceptable. If however she had gone onto a swinging site and met 15 men in the same time frame people would think of her as a complete and utter slut. |
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By (user no longer on site) OP
over a year ago
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I once tried to book a venue for a swinging party. I thought good people to ring would be people who do stag and hen dos. My reasoning was that anyone who had hard drugs and prostitutes at their venue wouldn't mind couples swapping partners.
After phoning probably 30-40 party venues I got the same response. Yes it was fine to have a wild party with 20something year olds with and hookers but not a bunch of 40 year olds swinging. Apparently there is a "stigma".
So apparently it is ok to have sex with a stripper you only met an hour ago but not your friends girlfriend.... |
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By (user no longer on site) OP
over a year ago
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"No expert but from a legal perspective (and from a criminal stand point) they have a reasonable person test. Imagine a straw poll off a 100 people, would 51% find it moral/immoral.
Obviously that pool of people changes. For example. Would a 100 swingers find orgys moral/immoral?
So they use a broad cross section of the populous.
They use this standard when it comes to certain driving offences too. "
So lets say we put up a meet for a couple to come to ours. Should we do a cross sectional survey of 100 people ahead of time or do we just find out if it was immoral when we end up in court?
Personally I think its quite fair for a landlord to say that their tenants shouldn't cause complaints. I also think that it's fair for employers to not have their business negatively affected by employee behaviour.
What I am against is employers, landlords using the need for employment and accommodation to enforce their moral views on people. |
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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago
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"I once tried to book a venue for a swinging party. I thought good people to ring would be people who do stag and hen dos. My reasoning was that anyone who had hard drugs and prostitutes at their venue wouldn't mind couples swapping partners.
After phoning probably 30-40 party venues I got the same response. Yes it was fine to have a wild party with 20something year olds with and hookers but not a bunch of 40 year olds swinging. Apparently there is a "stigma".
So apparently it is ok to have sex with a stripper you only met an hour ago but not your friends girlfriend...."
Don't tell them it's for a swinging party. |
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By (user no longer on site) OP
over a year ago
|
"I once tried to book a venue for a swinging party. I thought good people to ring would be people who do stag and hen dos. My reasoning was that anyone who had hard drugs and prostitutes at their venue wouldn't mind couples swapping partners.
After phoning probably 30-40 party venues I got the same response. Yes it was fine to have a wild party with 20something year olds with and hookers but not a bunch of 40 year olds swinging. Apparently there is a "stigma".
So apparently it is ok to have sex with a stripper you only met an hour ago but not your friends girlfriend....
Don't tell them it's for a swinging party. "
Probably the only way. We considered just saying it waa a 40th birthday party.
The lesson that I took away from the whole experience was that morality is an emotional issue not a logical one.
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"My lease agreement has a morality clause. I shall not do anything immoral.
This has me scratching my head. Because morality is subjective.
What do people think? Just because someone rents you a property (or employs you for that matter) do you think it gives them the right to dictate your behaviour?"
Yes I do think they have a right to dictate your behaviour to a certain degree in much the same way as site owners and club owners even bosses have the right to ask for certain levels of behaviour in THEIR property.
They also have a legal obligation to ensure the peace etc of other workers, neighbours , club or site owners etc.
BUT...... they should give examples.... because you are right , to a degree morality is subjective.
Maybe they mean by legal definition. So ..... look it up or ask them. I'd be really interested to know what they consider immoral. |
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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago
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It rather depends on whether you agree to the basis of morality. If you can agree on a basis, wellbeing for example, it's possible to make objective moral judgements for each situation. |
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By (user no longer on site) OP
over a year ago
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"My lease agreement has a morality clause. I shall not do anything immoral.
This has me scratching my head. Because morality is subjective.
What do people think? Just because someone rents you a property (or employs you for that matter) do you think it gives them the right to dictate your behaviour?
Yes I do think they have a right to dictate your behaviour to a certain degree in much the same way as site owners and club owners even bosses have the right to ask for certain levels of behaviour in THEIR property.
They also have a legal obligation to ensure the peace etc of other workers, neighbours , club or site owners etc.
BUT...... they should give examples.... because you are right , to a degree morality is subjective.
Maybe they mean by legal definition. So ..... look it up or ask them. I'd be really interested to know what they consider immoral. "
Here's a hypothetical.
Let's say one day my landlord finds out I'm a swinger. I don't hurt anyone, don't make a noise, don't disturb the neighbours. For all they know it's just friends popping around for tea. Perhaps my landlord is open minded or even a swinger himself and it's not an issue..... or.... maybe my landlord has strong religious beliefs and evicted.
The variable in the equation is not my actions, nor morality itself. The variable is the person perceiving morality.
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By *stellaWoman
over a year ago
London |
"My lease agreement has a morality clause. I shall not do anything immoral.
This has me scratching my head. Because morality is subjective.
What do people think? Just because someone rents you a property (or employs you for that matter) do you think it gives them the right to dictate your behaviour?"
Does it define it further? |
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"I once tried to book a venue for a swinging party. I thought good people to ring would be people who do stag and hen dos. My reasoning was that anyone who had hard drugs and prostitutes at their venue wouldn't mind couples swapping partners.
After phoning probably 30-40 party venues I got the same response. Yes it was fine to have a wild party with 20something year olds with and hookers but not a bunch of 40 year olds swinging. Apparently there is a "stigma".
So apparently it is ok to have sex with a stripper you only met an hour ago but not your friends girlfriend...."
In scotland you can’t do any sexual activities unless as it’s a registered sex club
Any club could lose its licence that permitted this |
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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago
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"I once tried to book a venue for a swinging party. I thought good people to ring would be people who do stag and hen dos. My reasoning was that anyone who had hard drugs and prostitutes at their venue wouldn't mind couples swapping partners.
After phoning probably 30-40 party venues I got the same response. Yes it was fine to have a wild party with 20something year olds with and hookers but not a bunch of 40 year olds swinging. Apparently there is a "stigma".
So apparently it is ok to have sex with a stripper you only met an hour ago but not your friends girlfriend....
Don't tell them it's for a swinging party.
Probably the only way. We considered just saying it waa a 40th birthday party.
The lesson that I took away from the whole experience was that morality is an emotional issue not a logical one.
"
Just rent an apartment with a couple of bedrooms. And have a few friends round.  |
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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago
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"My lease agreement has a morality clause. I shall not do anything immoral.
This has me scratching my head. Because morality is subjective.
What do people think? Just because someone rents you a property (or employs you for that matter) do you think it gives them the right to dictate your behaviour?"
Have you asked them what it means? I'd assume it means don't run a brothel. But like you say, it could mean anything.  |
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"My lease agreement has a morality clause. I shall not do anything immoral.
This has me scratching my head. Because morality is subjective.
What do people think? Just because someone rents you a property (or employs you for that matter) do you think it gives them the right to dictate your behaviour?
Does it define it further? "
They generally don’t |
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Most intelligently written contracts have definitions of important terms in them, so that all parties know very precisely what is meant.
Morality is subject op, as you state - it's a fluid concept, depending on which people and the context provides the meaning. Public sex in a church is likely immoral but morally fine in a swingers club.
I would have assumed that the contract already stated that illegal acts are unacceptable, so the concept of what is morally right, would surely relate to where no one is harmed or forced to do something against their will. Consensual legal sex would therefore be therefore almost certainly be viewed as morally right, as one of the freedoms we hold.
Also, the EU supports
'Everyone has the right to respect for his or her private and family life, home and communications'.
'Everyone has the right to freedom of peaceful assembly and to freedom of association at all levels'
So you'll likely be covered by the EU Charter of Fundamental Rights, to not have your life illegally infringed in many ways, even if someone perceives your behaviour as immoral. |
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By *stellaWoman
over a year ago
London |
"My lease agreement has a morality clause. I shall not do anything immoral.
This has me scratching my head. Because morality is subjective.
What do people think? Just because someone rents you a property (or employs you for that matter) do you think it gives them the right to dictate your behaviour?
Does it define it further?
They generally don’t "
A morality clause should be, and usually is when formed as part of a contract (say employment). |
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By *stellaWoman
over a year ago
London |
"My lease agreement has a morality clause. I shall not do anything immoral.
This has me scratching my head. Because morality is subjective.
What do people think? Just because someone rents you a property (or employs you for that matter) do you think it gives them the right to dictate your behaviour?
Does it define it further?
They generally don’t
A morality clause should be, and usually is when formed as part of a contract (say employment). "
It is, as others have mentioned, likely to ensure there’s no prostitution taking place at the premises as it is legal for a prostitute whether tenant or not to work alone at a private premise and it would be likely the landlord is seeming that unacceptable under the immorality clause (as it’s not illegal) to stop you prostituting yourself or another at the home.
Perhaps ask the landlord their view on legal sexwork? |
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By (user no longer on site) OP
over a year ago
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"Most intelligently written contracts have definitions of important terms in them, so that all parties know very precisely what is meant.
Morality is subject op, as you state - it's a fluid concept, depending on which people and the context provides the meaning. Public sex in a church is likely immoral but morally fine in a swingers club.
I would have assumed that the contract already stated that illegal acts are unacceptable, so the concept of what is morally right, would surely relate to where no one is harmed or forced to do something against their will. Consensual legal sex would therefore be therefore almost certainly be viewed as morally right, as one of the freedoms we hold.
Also, the EU supports
'Everyone has the right to respect for his or her private and family life, home and communications'.
'Everyone has the right to freedom of peaceful assembly and to freedom of association at all levels'
So you'll likely be covered by the EU Charter of Fundamental Rights, to not have your life illegally infringed in many ways, even if someone perceives your behaviour as immoral. "
Thank you. I always enjoy your posts. |
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