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Victim blaming or common sense?
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By (user no longer on site) OP
over a year ago
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Woman walking home alone at midnight with headphones on so she is unaware of her surroundings and a possible attack.
Man goes to meet a total stranger off the internet in the woods where a gang may be waiting.
When people give advice on avoiding such situations they are often accused of victim blaming.
Should people give common sense advice or not? |
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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago
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"However, the responsibility for committing a crime lies with the perpetrator."
Totally agreed, but denial of reality is cold comfort.
No point preaching common sense. You have it or you don't. |
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By *isaB45Woman
over a year ago
Fabville |
"However, the responsibility for committing a crime lies with the perpetrator.
Totally agreed, but denial of reality is cold comfort.
No point preaching common sense. You have it or you don't."
Agreed re. Reality, but still should be able to walk in the street when you want too.. |
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By *ea monkeyMan
over a year ago
Manchester (he/him) |
"Woman walking home alone at midnight with headphones on so she is unaware of her surroundings and a possible attack.
Man goes to meet a total stranger off the internet in the woods where a gang may be waiting.
When people give advice on avoiding such situations they are often accused of victim blaming.
Should people give common sense advice or not?"
There's a line between offering common sense on personal safety and telling a victim that it was their fault that it happened.
Someone d*unk and alone late at night is vulnerable, they don't get assaulted by themselves though.
The simple fact is that it is always the perpetrator at fault, no one ever sets out to be mugged, beaten or assaulted. Can we look back and recognise flaws in judgement? Maybe, but hindsight from the comfort of our armchairs is always very clear and judgement helps no one, especially not the victim.
The person at fault is *always* the one that commits the crime.
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By *stellaWoman
over a year ago
London |
"Woman walking home alone at midnight with headphones on so she is unaware of her surroundings and a possible attack.
Man goes to meet a total stranger off the internet in the woods where a gang may be waiting.
When people give advice on avoiding such situations they are often accused of victim blaming.
Should people give common sense advice or not?
There's a line between offering common sense on personal safety and telling a victim that it was their fault that it happened.
Someone d*unk and alone late at night is vulnerable, they don't get assaulted by themselves though.
The simple fact is that it is always the perpetrator at fault, no one ever sets out to be mugged, beaten or assaulted. Can we look back and recognise flaws in judgement? Maybe, but hindsight from the comfort of our armchairs is always very clear and judgement helps no one, especially not the victim.
The person at fault is *always* the one that commits the crime.
"
Exactly. |
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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago
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I got a proper kicking in a pub around 9 or 10 years ago. It was the kind of pub I should have given up on at least a decade before I was infrequently still drinking in it.
The more you visit these kind of places, the more the odds drop on the chances of something happening, especially during an early hours lock-in as this was.
I was 100% innocent of the supposed justifiable reason for the attack but 100% stupid for being in the pub in the first place.
No complaints, you dance with the devil and you're gonna get burnt. |
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By (user no longer on site) OP
over a year ago
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"I got a proper kicking in a pub around 9 or 10 years ago. It was the kind of pub I should have given up on at least a decade before I was infrequently still drinking in it.
The more you visit these kind of places, the more the odds drop on the chances of something happening, especially during an early hours lock-in as this was.
I was 100% innocent of the supposed justifiable reason for the attack but 100% stupid for being in the pub in the first place.
No complaints, you dance with the devil and you're gonna get burnt."
Fair point. I've never had a kicking in a dodgy pub.  |
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By (user no longer on site) OP
over a year ago
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"However, the responsibility for committing a crime lies with the perpetrator."
I agree. But people are often slated for giving common sense advice.
The police said to women, "don't get pissed as it leaves you vulnerable to predators". They had to apologise because people said they were victim blaming. |
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Very much depends on who says it, context etc.
The thing that's often missed out here is that it's not crime prevention, it's displacement. If I stay sober, get a cab home, etc, the predator still exists and will find someone who doesn't. We protect ourselves, but much more focus should be on "if you're not sure if she consents or she clearly doesn't, keep your filthy paws off her". (genders may be reversed) |
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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago
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"I got a proper kicking in a pub around 9 or 10 years ago. It was the kind of pub I should have given up on at least a decade before I was infrequently still drinking in it.
The more you visit these kind of places, the more the odds drop on the chances of something happening, especially during an early hours lock-in as this was.
I was 100% innocent of the supposed justifiable reason for the attack but 100% stupid for being in the pub in the first place.
No complaints, you dance with the devil and you're gonna get burnt.
Fair point. I've never had a kicking in a dodgy pub. "
I got one in the street walking home one night too, totally indiscriminste, 5 of them. A guy ran out if his house naked to help me when he heard the commotion, which was funny.
I still got a kicking though.
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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago
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"I got a proper kicking in a pub around 9 or 10 years ago. It was the kind of pub I should have given up on at least a decade before I was infrequently still drinking in it.
The more you visit these kind of places, the more the odds drop on the chances of something happening, especially during an early hours lock-in as this was.
I was 100% innocent of the supposed justifiable reason for the attack but 100% stupid for being in the pub in the first place.
No complaints, you dance with the devil and you're gonna get burnt.
Fair point. I've never had a kicking in a dodgy pub.
I got one in the street walking home one night too, totally indiscriminste, 5 of them. A guy ran out if his house naked to help me when he heard the commotion, which was funny.
I still got a kicking though.
"
I've neve had a fight or a beating of any kind in my life.....
.....does that mean I have common sense or luck or am I just not a victim, or am I a big pussy....?   |
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By *stellaWoman
over a year ago
London |
I don’t accept the premise of the question that the common sense might not be victim blaming, or that the call of victim blaming may not be common sense. Context, tone and intent in provision of “common sense” and the proportionality of specific work to deter, catch and prosecute perpetrators is important.
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By (user no longer on site) OP
over a year ago
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"Very much depends on who says it, context etc.
The thing that's often missed out here is that it's not crime prevention, it's displacement. If I stay sober, get a cab home, etc, the predator still exists and will find someone who doesn't. We protect ourselves, but much more focus should be on "if you're not sure if she consents or she clearly doesn't, keep your filthy paws off her". (genders may be reversed) "
I agree re: context. But people should still accept some personal responsibility. |
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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago
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"I got a proper kicking in a pub around 9 or 10 years ago. It was the kind of pub I should have given up on at least a decade before I was infrequently still drinking in it.
The more you visit these kind of places, the more the odds drop on the chances of something happening, especially during an early hours lock-in as this was.
I was 100% innocent of the supposed justifiable reason for the attack but 100% stupid for being in the pub in the first place.
No complaints, you dance with the devil and you're gonna get burnt.
Fair point. I've never had a kicking in a dodgy pub.
I got one in the street walking home one night too, totally indiscriminste, 5 of them. A guy ran out if his house naked to help me when he heard the commotion, which was funny.
I still got a kicking though.
I've neve had a fight or a beating of any kind in my life.....
.....does that mean I have common sense or luck or am I just not a victim, or am I a big pussy....? "
Common sense and luck. I wasn't a scrapper, those were 2 isolated incidents and there was very little else. A combination of growing up in a 'rough' area and following any given football team home and away through the '80s meant trouble was never going to far away if you wanted it but mostly avoidable if you didn't.
I did my best to take the latter option. |
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By *ugby 123Couple
over a year ago
Forum Mod O o O oo |
"However, the responsibility for committing a crime lies with the perpetrator.
I agree. But people are often slated for giving common sense advice.
The police said to women, "don't get pissed as it leaves you vulnerable to predators". They had to apologise because people said they were victim blaming. "
I would say that is good advice and not victim blaming |
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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago
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"I got a proper kicking in a pub around 9 or 10 years ago. It was the kind of pub I should have given up on at least a decade before I was infrequently still drinking in it.
The more you visit these kind of places, the more the odds drop on the chances of something happening, especially during an early hours lock-in as this was.
I was 100% innocent of the supposed justifiable reason for the attack but 100% stupid for being in the pub in the first place.
No complaints, you dance with the devil and you're gonna get burnt.
Fair point. I've never had a kicking in a dodgy pub.
I got one in the street walking home one night too, totally indiscriminste, 5 of them. A guy ran out if his house naked to help me when he heard the commotion, which was funny.
I still got a kicking though.
I've neve had a fight or a beating of any kind in my life.....
.....does that mean I have common sense or luck or am I just not a victim, or am I a big pussy....?
Common sense and luck. I wasn't a scrapper, those were 2 isolated incidents and there was very little else. A combination of growing up in a 'rough' area and following any given football team home and away through the '80s meant trouble was never going to far away if you wanted it but mostly avoidable if you didn't.
I did my best to take the latter option."
I lke my face more than most ppl seem to, judging from my one solitary fab..... |
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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago
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Actually, the reality is that there are levels of crime and that one should take personal responsibility for ones safety... Unfortunately that responsibility falls largely on female shoulders...There will always be crime and always criminals...And yes in a perfect , respect-full world...Wouldn't it be wonderful to venture out whenever and wherever. |
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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago
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"Actually, the reality is that there are levels of crime and that one should take personal responsibility for ones safety... Unfortunately that responsibility falls largely on female shoulders...There will always be crime and always criminals...And yes in a perfect , respect-full world...Wouldn't it be wonderful to venture out whenever and wherever."
.....so that guy up there gets beaten up for going on the wrong pub and it's a females fault?
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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago
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I just think if I told you what I had for lunch today, then still somehow someone on fab would manage to bring it back to women being victims and men being ogres. The majority of both men and women are decent and I think many ppl are too keen to forget that, it makes me sad...  
Give advice because you care and if ppl can't see the care behind the advice then they can advise you on the advice youve given, and so it goes on.... |
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By *ea monkeyMan
over a year ago
Manchester (he/him) |
"However, the responsibility for committing a crime lies with the perpetrator.
I agree. But people are often slated for giving common sense advice.
The police said to women, "don't get pissed as it leaves you vulnerable to predators". They had to apologise because people said they were victim blaming.
I would say that is good advice and not victim blaming"
I agree to a point, to be told; "you were attacked because you were d*unk" is victim blaming, however, the context of it coming from the police could be seen to be making the emphasis on the potential victim, rather than the perpetrator.
It's the polices job to make the streets clear and safe for people to live life as they see fit lawfully. Not to incite fear in people for them not doing their jobs adequately. |
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Watching the documentary on the Yorkshire Ripper case, when the Police were advising Women to not walk home alone and even to stay indoors after dark. So Women went out and did ‘reclaim the night walks’. They were actually changing the dialogue by saying why should we stay inside, when we’re not harming or killing anyone and it’s the Men who should be under a nighttime curfew.
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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago
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"Very much depends on who says it, context etc.
The thing that's often missed out here is that it's not crime prevention, it's displacement. If I stay sober, get a cab home, etc, the predator still exists and will find someone who doesn't. We protect ourselves, but much more focus should be on "if you're not sure if she consents or she clearly doesn't, keep your filthy paws off her". (genders may be reversed) "
Whilst this is true, the world can be a very dark place. Consent doesn't matter to someone who is going to a assault a woman, so lecturing them about it won't make a difference. There's a big difference between a sexual predator and someone who's nit really clued up on social cues. |
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"I just think if I told you what I had for lunch today, then still somehow someone on fab would manage to bring it back to women being victims and men being ogres. The majority of both men and women are decent and I think many ppl are too keen to forget that, it makes me sad...
Give advice because you care and if ppl can't see the care behind the advice then they can advise you on the advice youve given, and so it goes on.... "
The majority of physical attacks are inflicted on men. I only speak from my own personal experience, and I've never attacked anyone.
I think the issue has long been that "common sense" has been where advice has stopped. What did you expect, etc? Not, Jesus don't hurt people wtf is wrong with you.
I want to live in a world where it's safer to go out at night, have fun, and not have to worry about violence. Of course I do, and of course I protect myself. But the responsibility for attacks lies with attackers. Period. |
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"Very much depends on who says it, context etc.
The thing that's often missed out here is that it's not crime prevention, it's displacement. If I stay sober, get a cab home, etc, the predator still exists and will find someone who doesn't. We protect ourselves, but much more focus should be on "if you're not sure if she consents or she clearly doesn't, keep your filthy paws off her". (genders may be reversed)
Whilst this is true, the world can be a very dark place. Consent doesn't matter to someone who is going to a assault a woman, so lecturing them about it won't make a difference. There's a big difference between a sexual predator and someone who's nit really clued up on social cues."
I'm not saying I don't protect myself. But why is it OK to accept that someone will be attacked, as long as it's not me?
We need early intervention to find and prevent potential monsters, and cultural correction on wider issues of violence and entitlement to bodies. Not to curtail activities of those who've done nothing wrong. |
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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago
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A lot of good points and perspectives but I’d say it’s all down to common sense. Nobody deliberately goes out to become a victim, nor should they be blamed for the actions of a wrong doer simply for making a silly mistake or taking a risk. You should use your common sense and valuate the safety of the situation Especially if your a women, not to sound sexist or whatever the word is but women should take extra diligence when meeting or out at night. |
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Yes people can be naive, put themselves unintentionally in dangerous situations. Hindsight and all that is great but no one deserves or is asking to be assaulted going about their own business. There are plenty of 'sensible' people who suffer at the hands of others. The blame lands entirely on the perpetrator for me. |
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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago
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It really doesn’t matter what is said someone somewhere will always have an opposing argument. You should always advise common sense to people we have a responsibility to protect ourselves, I won’t do home visits for safety, If i did and got attacked that is completely the attacker at fault even though I went but it couldn’t have happened if I didn’t put myself in the situation in the first place. It’s about not making it easy for offenders even though they are the ones to blame if they offend. I do think after it’s done though, you should never blame the victim or say I told you so. |
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By *icketysplitsWoman
over a year ago
Way over Yonder, that's where I'm bound |
"However, the responsibility for committing a crime lies with the perpetrator.
I agree. But people are often slated for giving common sense advice.
The police said to women, "don't get pissed as it leaves you vulnerable to predators". They had to apologise because people said they were victim blaming. "
There wasn't a similar message given to young men. It leaves them vulnerable too.
Being young is the time you should be able to be a bit stupid. Common sense comes with experience and some of that experience is gained by getting things a little wrong.
The consequence of getting d*unk should not be being attacked and worse, it should be doing something embarrassing and living to regret that not, not living in fear. |
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By *irthandgirthMan
over a year ago
Camberley occasionally doncaster |
"Yes people can be naive, put themselves unintentionally in dangerous situations. Hindsight and all that is great but no one deserves or is asking to be assaulted going about their own business. There are plenty of 'sensible' people who suffer at the hands of others. The blame lands entirely on the perpetrator for me. "
Take your point regarding innocent bystanders, but what about mitigating circumstances?
He hit me (his fault)
I spat in his pint first (I instigated it- not clever) is it still 100% the fault of the guy who threw the punch? Or should I take a portion of the blame? |
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"Yes people can be naive, put themselves unintentionally in dangerous situations. Hindsight and all that is great but no one deserves or is asking to be assaulted going about their own business. There are plenty of 'sensible' people who suffer at the hands of others. The blame lands entirely on the perpetrator for me.
Take your point regarding innocent bystanders, but what about mitigating circumstances?
He hit me (his fault)
I spat in his pint first (I instigated it- not clever) is it still 100% the fault of the guy who threw the punch? Or should I take a portion of the blame?"
For me that's a totally different situation that's provocation. |
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By (user no longer on site) OP
over a year ago
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"Could we get the context and source of the police saying ‘don’t get pissed’ that was said to be victim blaming? "
www.bbc.co.uk/news/amp/uk-england-merseyside-45232993
"The tweets had included a video, which was part of a campaign, encouraging "friends to look after each other on a night out to prevent someone becoming vulnerable or separated from the group".
The statement said the video had been based on assaults that had been reported by survivors, where "predatory men have targeted women they perceive to be vulnerable in some way"." |
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By *stellaWoman
over a year ago
London |
"Could we get the context and source of the police saying ‘don’t get pissed’ that was said to be victim blaming?
www.bbc.co.uk/news/amp/uk-england-merseyside-45232993
"The tweets had included a video, which was part of a campaign, encouraging "friends to look after each other on a night out to prevent someone becoming vulnerable or separated from the group".
The statement said the video had been based on assaults that had been reported by survivors, where "predatory men have targeted women they perceive to be vulnerable in some way".""
If this is the summer of 2018 incident the police didn’t say to women “don’t get pissed”. |
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By *irthandgirthMan
over a year ago
Camberley occasionally doncaster |
"Yes people can be naive, put themselves unintentionally in dangerous situations. Hindsight and all that is great but no one deserves or is asking to be assaulted going about their own business. There are plenty of 'sensible' people who suffer at the hands of others. The blame lands entirely on the perpetrator for me.
Take your point regarding innocent bystanders, but what about mitigating circumstances?
He hit me (his fault)
I spat in his pint first (I instigated it- not clever) is it still 100% the fault of the guy who threw the punch? Or should I take a portion of the blame?
For me that's a totally different situation that's provocation."
Indeed,but it also goes a way to disprove the "its always the perpetrators fault 100%" kind of statements prevalent in threads like this. I made it deliberately a stupid scenario to remove anything that could be taken to heart or in any other context.
Many scenarios are between the black and white ends of the scale, though these are terrible when they do happen. But the argument that you should be able to skip through life doing what you want, when you want and being entirely blameless of any reaction you provoke (in that grey area in the middle) is a little too much.
Referring to the "common sense" theme, I work with a lot of younger guys. As is their wont, they will push boundaries and fuck up. A common reply when they get caught is "Well nobody said I couldn't do it..." |
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By (user no longer on site) OP
over a year ago
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"Could we get the context and source of the police saying ‘don’t get pissed’ that was said to be victim blaming?
www.bbc.co.uk/news/amp/uk-england-merseyside-45232993
"The tweets had included a video, which was part of a campaign, encouraging "friends to look after each other on a night out to prevent someone becoming vulnerable or separated from the group".
The statement said the video had been based on assaults that had been reported by survivors, where "predatory men have targeted women they perceive to be vulnerable in some way"."
If this is the summer of 2018 incident the police didn’t say to women “don’t get pissed”."
What did they say? |
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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago
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"Woman walking home alone at midnight with headphones on so she is unaware of her surroundings and a possible attack.
Man goes to meet a total stranger off the internet in the woods where a gang may be waiting.
When people give advice on avoiding such situations they are often accused of victim blaming.
Should people give common sense advice or not?"
I'm sure many think it's clear cut. It's rarely as black and white as we'd like to think. We're moving more and more into a world with diminished responsibility. Taking responsibility is a rearer thing these days. Some will see incitement/aggravation differently too. Who is right? Each situation will be different and the responsibility for the outcome also. There are situations where the victim is completely innocent, but there are situations where the victim isn't as innocent as others or they make out. |
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By *pmsldCouple
over a year ago
kettering |
Everyone should be able to walk down a street at night and feel safe unfortunatly the reality is that people can be attacked for no reason other than the attacker felt like it at the time. Victim blaming shouldn't happen but at the same time it's good to point out things that the victim could have done differently as this could save another person in a similar situation. |
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By (user no longer on site) OP
over a year ago
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"Everyone should be able to walk down a street at night and feel safe unfortunatly the reality is that people can be attacked for no reason other than the attacker felt like it at the time. Victim blaming shouldn't happen but at the same time it's good to point out things that the victim could have done differently as this could save another person in a similar situation. "
That's how I see it too. |
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By *stellaWoman
over a year ago
London |
"Could we get the context and source of the police saying ‘don’t get pissed’ that was said to be victim blaming?
www.bbc.co.uk/news/amp/uk-england-merseyside-45232993
"The tweets had included a video, which was part of a campaign, encouraging "friends to look after each other on a night out to prevent someone becoming vulnerable or separated from the group".
The statement said the video had been based on assaults that had been reported by survivors, where "predatory men have targeted women they perceive to be vulnerable in some way"."
If this is the summer of 2018 incident the police didn’t say to women “don’t get pissed”.
What did they say?"
It’s in the article, but their tweet campaign was about how other people should know to step in when someone has d*unk too much (the bar tender, the friends), not saying someone shouldn’t drink. So less about the victim’s common sense but actually everyone else’s. |
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By (user no longer on site) OP
over a year ago
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"Could we get the context and source of the police saying ‘don’t get pissed’ that was said to be victim blaming?
www.bbc.co.uk/news/amp/uk-england-merseyside-45232993
"The tweets had included a video, which was part of a campaign, encouraging "friends to look after each other on a night out to prevent someone becoming vulnerable or separated from the group".
The statement said the video had been based on assaults that had been reported by survivors, where "predatory men have targeted women they perceive to be vulnerable in some way"."
If this is the summer of 2018 incident the police didn’t say to women “don’t get pissed”.
What did they say?
It’s in the article, but their tweet campaign was about how other people should know to step in when someone has d*unk too much (the bar tender, the friends), not saying someone shouldn’t drink. So less about the victim’s common sense but actually everyone else’s. "
I was probably thinking of a different story.  |
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By *stellaWoman
over a year ago
London |
"Could we get the context and source of the police saying ‘don’t get pissed’ that was said to be victim blaming?
www.bbc.co.uk/news/amp/uk-england-merseyside-45232993
"The tweets had included a video, which was part of a campaign, encouraging "friends to look after each other on a night out to prevent someone becoming vulnerable or separated from the group".
The statement said the video had been based on assaults that had been reported by survivors, where "predatory men have targeted women they perceive to be vulnerable in some way"."
If this is the summer of 2018 incident the police didn’t say to women “don’t get pissed”.
What did they say?
It’s in the article, but their tweet campaign was about how other people should know to step in when someone has d*unk too much (the bar tender, the friends), not saying someone shouldn’t drink. So less about the victim’s common sense but actually everyone else’s.
I was probably thinking of a different story. "
I’ve not managed to find any where the police have said not to get pissed and had to apologise for it. But yes, maybe you were. |
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I explained it to my daughter this way: when she was little I told her to look both ways when crossing the road, in case she was hit by a car and killed. Even at traffic lights when the man is on green, and on zebra crossings. I pointed out that the cars SHOULD stop. But if they don't, even though they're the ones at fault, she would be the one dead.
She always, always looks both ways. And is careful and cautious in other ways, protecting herself whilst not feeling a victim.
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"Could we get the context and source of the police saying ‘don’t get pissed’ that was said to be victim blaming?
www.bbc.co.uk/news/amp/uk-england-merseyside-45232993
"The tweets had included a video, which was part of a campaign, encouraging "friends to look after each other on a night out to prevent someone becoming vulnerable or separated from the group".
The statement said the video had been based on assaults that had been reported by survivors, where "predatory men have targeted women they perceive to be vulnerable in some way"."
If this is the summer of 2018 incident the police didn’t say to women “don’t get pissed”.
What did they say?
It’s in the article, but their tweet campaign was about how other people should know to step in when someone has d*unk too much (the bar tender, the friends), not saying someone shouldn’t drink. So less about the victim’s common sense but actually everyone else’s.
I was probably thinking of a different story.
I’ve not managed to find any where the police have said not to get pissed and had to apologise for it. But yes, maybe you were. "
Wasnt that an Australian story last year? |
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By *stellaWoman
over a year ago
London |
"Could we get the context and source of the police saying ‘don’t get pissed’ that was said to be victim blaming?
www.bbc.co.uk/news/amp/uk-england-merseyside-45232993
"The tweets had included a video, which was part of a campaign, encouraging "friends to look after each other on a night out to prevent someone becoming vulnerable or separated from the group".
The statement said the video had been based on assaults that had been reported by survivors, where "predatory men have targeted women they perceive to be vulnerable in some way"."
If this is the summer of 2018 incident the police didn’t say to women “don’t get pissed”.
What did they say?
It’s in the article, but their tweet campaign was about how other people should know to step in when someone has d*unk too much (the bar tender, the friends), not saying someone shouldn’t drink. So less about the victim’s common sense but actually everyone else’s.
I was probably thinking of a different story.
I’ve not managed to find any where the police have said not to get pissed and had to apologise for it. But yes, maybe you were.
Wasnt that an Australian story last year?"
Super, can I have a source? |
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This I all I found, but this isn't the one I was thinking of.
https://amp.smh.com.au/national/nsw/waverley-mayor-sally-betts-under-fire-for-victim-blaming-program-20150415-1mluen.html#aoh=15540455970611&_ct=1554045712855&csi=1&referrer=https%3A%2F%2Fwww.google.com&_tf=From%20%251%24s |
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a lot of it is common sense OP but common sense is not always common. There are some really stupid people on this planet but that doesn't give anyone the right to hurt someone else regardless of their stupidity. Recently there has been a lot of stab attacks on a well known gay app because people dont think with their brains but with their dicks and fannies |
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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago
|
Always give helpful or thoughtful advice, whether it's appreciated or not
Some of it might just make a difference
Just don't drone on or keep banging away about the same point |
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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago
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The recent spate of car thefts and assaults by spoof profiles on Grindr is worrying
Might bring an end to the 'what do you drive?' threads here, though I doubt it - for the humble bragger, it's a risk worth taking  |
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By *stellaWoman
over a year ago
London |
"This I all I found, but this isn't the one I was thinking of.
https://amp.smh.com.au/national/nsw/waverley-mayor-sally-betts-under-fire-for-victim-blaming-program-20150415-1mluen.html#aoh=15540455970611&_ct=1554045712855&csi=1&referrer=https%3A%2F%2Fwww.google.com&_tf=From%20%251%24s"
Yeah, that’s not saying the police have said women should not get pissed and had to apologise for it either.
So perhaps they haven’t? I just prefer to actually read context. I’ll wait on. |
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"This I all I found, but this isn't the one I was thinking of.
https://amp.smh.com.au/national/nsw/waverley-mayor-sally-betts-under-fire-for-victim-blaming-program-20150415-1mluen.html#aoh=15540455970611&_ct=1554045712855&csi=1&referrer=https%3A%2F%2Fwww.google.com&_tf=From%20%251%24s
Yeah, that’s not saying the police have said women should not get pissed and had to apologise for it either.
So perhaps they haven’t? I just prefer to actually read context. I’ll wait on. "
Do you think the police should be advising women to get pissed and be out on their own while doing so then ? |
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By *stellaWoman
over a year ago
London |
"This I all I found, but this isn't the one I was thinking of.
https://amp.smh.com.au/national/nsw/waverley-mayor-sally-betts-under-fire-for-victim-blaming-program-20150415-1mluen.html#aoh=15540455970611&_ct=1554045712855&csi=1&referrer=https%3A%2F%2Fwww.google.com&_tf=From%20%251%24s
Yeah, that’s not saying the police have said women should not get pissed and had to apologise for it either.
So perhaps they haven’t? I just prefer to actually read context. I’ll wait on.
Do you think the police should be advising women to get pissed and be out on their own while doing so then ? "
No. Opinions are not as binary as that. |
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"This I all I found, but this isn't the one I was thinking of.
https://amp.smh.com.au/national/nsw/waverley-mayor-sally-betts-under-fire-for-victim-blaming-program-20150415-1mluen.html#aoh=15540455970611&_ct=1554045712855&csi=1&referrer=https%3A%2F%2Fwww.google.com&_tf=From%20%251%24s
Yeah, that’s not saying the police have said women should not get pissed and had to apologise for it either.
So perhaps they haven’t? I just prefer to actually read context. I’ll wait on.
Do you think the police should be advising women to get pissed and be out on their own while doing so then ?
No. Opinions are not as binary as that. "
So it’s a pointless argument then surely ?
We agree it’s daft for women to go out on their own to get pissed . Anyone , whether police or not would say so . I don’t see why if they did say it they should apologize for saying the obvious .
I don’t think anyone should be out on their own in a pissed up state . |
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By *stellaWoman
over a year ago
London |
"This I all I found, but this isn't the one I was thinking of.
https://amp.smh.com.au/national/nsw/waverley-mayor-sally-betts-under-fire-for-victim-blaming-program-20150415-1mluen.html#aoh=15540455970611&_ct=1554045712855&csi=1&referrer=https%3A%2F%2Fwww.google.com&_tf=From%20%251%24s
Yeah, that’s not saying the police have said women should not get pissed and had to apologise for it either.
So perhaps they haven’t? I just prefer to actually read context. I’ll wait on.
Do you think the police should be advising women to get pissed and be out on their own while doing so then ?
No. Opinions are not as binary as that.
So it’s a pointless argument then surely ?
We agree it’s daft for women to go out on their own to get pissed . Anyone , whether police or not would say so . I don’t see why if they did say it they should apologize for saying the obvious .
I don’t think anyone should be out on their own in a pissed up state ."
Not at all. You seem to think there’s a problem with wanting to verify information stated as fact. By the way, I’ve answered my opinion on the OP point further up. And no, when I say it’s not binary that means you can’t then state I agree with you and whatever you’re about to say next, as much as it frustrates you and you want to. |
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By *stellaWoman
over a year ago
London |
"I wasn't saying they had. "
(Not sure if this was to my response to your article... if it was, no - I know you hadn’t said that. I was just seeking the source of the earlier comment saying this.) |
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By (user no longer on site) OP
over a year ago
|
"The recent spate of car thefts and assaults by spoof profiles on Grindr is worrying
Might bring an end to the 'what do you drive?' threads here, though I doubt it - for the humble bragger, it's a risk worth taking "
I wonder what the advice would be in this case. |
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By (user no longer on site) OP
over a year ago
|
"Could we get the context and source of the police saying ‘don’t get pissed’ that was said to be victim blaming?
www.bbc.co.uk/news/amp/uk-england-merseyside-45232993
"The tweets had included a video, which was part of a campaign, encouraging "friends to look after each other on a night out to prevent someone becoming vulnerable or separated from the group".
The statement said the video had been based on assaults that had been reported by survivors, where "predatory men have targeted women they perceive to be vulnerable in some way"."
If this is the summer of 2018 incident the police didn’t say to women “don’t get pissed”.
What did they say?
It’s in the article, but their tweet campaign was about how other people should know to step in when someone has d*unk too much (the bar tender, the friends), not saying someone shouldn’t drink. So less about the victim’s common sense but actually everyone else’s.
I was probably thinking of a different story.
I’ve not managed to find any where the police have said not to get pissed and had to apologise for it. But yes, maybe you were. "
 |
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By (user no longer on site) OP
over a year ago
|
"Why rolling eyes?
 "
I like to debate that's all. I don't see why everything needs facts. It's not a court of law.
I can't find the info where they said don't get pissed. Surely it's a given anyway. It makes people vulnerable, which is the point I was making. |
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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago
|
"Why rolling eyes?
I like to debate that's all. I don't see why everything needs facts. It's not a court of law.
I can't find the info where they said don't get pissed. Surely it's a given anyway. It makes people vulnerable, which is the point I was making. "
But don't get pissed is advice no one will listen to, we live in a society where getting wankered with your mates is seen as the norm. Surely better advice would be look after your mates when they are pissed? |
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By *stellaWoman
over a year ago
London |
"Why rolling eyes?
I like to debate that's all. I don't see why everything needs facts. It's not a court of law.
I can't find the info where they said don't get pissed. Surely it's a given anyway. It makes people vulnerable, which is the point I was making. "
I like to debate too. I’m more than happy with opinions to discuss, I’m sorry you presented something as fact and I simply asked to see the full picture. I apologise if that felt like making it a court of law, and that this was a negative thing to do. I was genuinely interested. And if things are a given, then where’s the debate? So are you suggesting no one should ever drink? I suspect not. But you know, words get read and part of a debate is clarifying your meaning. I’m sorry if you don’t like how I debate. I won’t roll my eyes. |
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By (user no longer on site) OP
over a year ago
|
"Why rolling eyes?
I like to debate that's all. I don't see why everything needs facts. It's not a court of law.
I can't find the info where they said don't get pissed. Surely it's a given anyway. It makes people vulnerable, which is the point I was making.
But don't get pissed is advice no one will listen to, we live in a society where getting wankered with your mates is seen as the norm. Surely better advice would be look after your mates when they are pissed?"
That's the advice they gave according to the link further up the thread. They still got slated for suggesting people look out for others. |
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"Why rolling eyes?
I like to debate that's all. I don't see why everything needs facts. It's not a court of law.
I can't find the info where they said don't get pissed. Surely it's a given anyway. It makes people vulnerable, which is the point I was making.
But don't get pissed is advice no one will listen to, we live in a society where getting wankered with your mates is seen as the norm. Surely better advice would be look after your mates when they are pissed?
That's the advice they gave according to the link further up the thread. They still got slated for suggesting people look out for others."
This is what I meant too
We all agree it’s daft to get wankered and be out alone in this state . So what’s wrong with anyone saying so ?
We know how the police have a tough job as it is and it seems daft to get pissed up and be vulnerable on your own . The argument that some have made like it’s always the perpetrators fault and that the police should be stopping us from getting into into trouble is nonsensical when it could be avoided by having a bit of common sense and listening to sensible advice . |
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By *stellaWoman
over a year ago
London |
"Why rolling eyes?
I like to debate that's all. I don't see why everything needs facts. It's not a court of law.
I can't find the info where they said don't get pissed. Surely it's a given anyway. It makes people vulnerable, which is the point I was making.
But don't get pissed is advice no one will listen to, we live in a society where getting wankered with your mates is seen as the norm. Surely better advice would be look after your mates when they are pissed?
That's the advice they gave according to the link further up the thread. They still got slated for suggesting people look out for others.
This is what I meant too
We all agree it’s daft to get wankered and be out alone in this state . So what’s wrong with anyone saying so ?
We know how the police have a tough job as it is and it seems daft to get pissed up and be vulnerable on your own . The argument that some have made like it’s always the perpetrators fault and that the police should be stopping us from getting into into trouble is nonsensical when it could be avoided by having a bit of common sense and listening to sensible advice ."
The “argument” is flawed when you actually believe that anyone explaining what victim blaming is means to be without any common sense at all - that’s not what anyone on this thread is saying! |
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"Why rolling eyes?
I like to debate that's all. I don't see why everything needs facts. It's not a court of law.
I can't find the info where they said don't get pissed. Surely it's a given anyway. It makes people vulnerable, which is the point I was making.
But don't get pissed is advice no one will listen to, we live in a society where getting wankered with your mates is seen as the norm. Surely better advice would be look after your mates when they are pissed?
That's the advice they gave according to the link further up the thread. They still got slated for suggesting people look out for others.
This is what I meant too
We all agree it’s daft to get wankered and be out alone in this state . So what’s wrong with anyone saying so ?
We know how the police have a tough job as it is and it seems daft to get pissed up and be vulnerable on your own . The argument that some have made like it’s always the perpetrators fault and that the police should be stopping us from getting into into trouble is nonsensical when it could be avoided by having a bit of common sense and listening to sensible advice .
The “argument” is flawed when you actually believe that anyone explaining what victim blaming is means to be without any common sense at all - that’s not what anyone on this thread is saying! "
If there is a person who is about to do something patently obviously dangerous , and someone suggests it may not be a good idea to do so , I don’t see the person saying not to do it as suggesting they have no common sense either . Just someone trying to offer good advice .
If the person ignores the advice and shit happens then maybe they don’t have much common sense , and maybe it could be construed that it was their own fault for being so bloody stupid . |
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By *stellaWoman
over a year ago
London |
"Why rolling eyes?
I like to debate that's all. I don't see why everything needs facts. It's not a court of law.
I can't find the info where they said don't get pissed. Surely it's a given anyway. It makes people vulnerable, which is the point I was making.
But don't get pissed is advice no one will listen to, we live in a society where getting wankered with your mates is seen as the norm. Surely better advice would be look after your mates when they are pissed?
That's the advice they gave according to the link further up the thread. They still got slated for suggesting people look out for others.
This is what I meant too
We all agree it’s daft to get wankered and be out alone in this state . So what’s wrong with anyone saying so ?
We know how the police have a tough job as it is and it seems daft to get pissed up and be vulnerable on your own . The argument that some have made like it’s always the perpetrators fault and that the police should be stopping us from getting into into trouble is nonsensical when it could be avoided by having a bit of common sense and listening to sensible advice .
The “argument” is flawed when you actually believe that anyone explaining what victim blaming is means to be without any common sense at all - that’s not what anyone on this thread is saying!
If there is a person who is about to do something patently obviously dangerous , and someone suggests it may not be a good idea to do so , I don’t see the person saying not to do it as suggesting they have no common sense either . Just someone trying to offer good advice .
If the person ignores the advice and shit happens then maybe they don’t have much common sense , and maybe it could be construed that it was their own fault for being so bloody stupid ."
I’m not sure if you think I disagree with this? I’m bemused.
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"Why rolling eyes?
I like to debate that's all. I don't see why everything needs facts. It's not a court of law.
I can't find the info where they said don't get pissed. Surely it's a given anyway. It makes people vulnerable, which is the point I was making.
But don't get pissed is advice no one will listen to, we live in a society where getting wankered with your mates is seen as the norm. Surely better advice would be look after your mates when they are pissed?
That's the advice they gave according to the link further up the thread. They still got slated for suggesting people look out for others.
This is what I meant too
We all agree it’s daft to get wankered and be out alone in this state . So what’s wrong with anyone saying so ?
We know how the police have a tough job as it is and it seems daft to get pissed up and be vulnerable on your own . The argument that some have made like it’s always the perpetrators fault and that the police should be stopping us from getting into into trouble is nonsensical when it could be avoided by having a bit of common sense and listening to sensible advice .
The “argument” is flawed when you actually believe that anyone explaining what victim blaming is means to be without any common sense at all - that’s not what anyone on this thread is saying!
If there is a person who is about to do something patently obviously dangerous , and someone suggests it may not be a good idea to do so , I don’t see the person saying not to do it as suggesting they have no common sense either . Just someone trying to offer good advice .
If the person ignores the advice and shit happens then maybe they don’t have much common sense , and maybe it could be construed that it was their own fault for being so bloody stupid .
I’m not sure if you think I disagree with this? I’m bemused.
"
I wasn’t implying you didn’t agree , more so I was saying that those who implied that the only one to blame was the perpetrator . And that if one knows there are risks in certain choices of behaviour , then has a problem after making a bad choice , then the victim will be somewhat justifiably be victim shamed . |
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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago
|
"However, the responsibility for committing a crime lies with the perpetrator.
Totally agreed, but denial of reality is cold comfort.
No point preaching common sense. You have it or you don't.
Agreed re. Reality, but still should be able to walk in the street when you want too.."
Of course you should, and you can if you are willing to accept the possible consequences. |
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By *stellaWoman
over a year ago
London |
"Why rolling eyes?
I like to debate that's all. I don't see why everything needs facts. It's not a court of law.
I can't find the info where they said don't get pissed. Surely it's a given anyway. It makes people vulnerable, which is the point I was making.
But don't get pissed is advice no one will listen to, we live in a society where getting wankered with your mates is seen as the norm. Surely better advice would be look after your mates when they are pissed?
That's the advice they gave according to the link further up the thread. They still got slated for suggesting people look out for others.
This is what I meant too
We all agree it’s daft to get wankered and be out alone in this state . So what’s wrong with anyone saying so ?
We know how the police have a tough job as it is and it seems daft to get pissed up and be vulnerable on your own . The argument that some have made like it’s always the perpetrators fault and that the police should be stopping us from getting into into trouble is nonsensical when it could be avoided by having a bit of common sense and listening to sensible advice .
The “argument” is flawed when you actually believe that anyone explaining what victim blaming is means to be without any common sense at all - that’s not what anyone on this thread is saying!
If there is a person who is about to do something patently obviously dangerous , and someone suggests it may not be a good idea to do so , I don’t see the person saying not to do it as suggesting they have no common sense either . Just someone trying to offer good advice .
If the person ignores the advice and shit happens then maybe they don’t have much common sense , and maybe it could be construed that it was their own fault for being so bloody stupid .
I’m not sure if you think I disagree with this? I’m bemused.
I wasn’t implying you didn’t agree , more so I was saying that those who implied that the only one to blame was the perpetrator . And that if one knows there are risks in certain choices of behaviour , then has a problem after making a bad choice , then the victim will be somewhat justifiably be victim shamed ."
I think that’s where we do disagree. I think Tea Monkey put it very well at the top of the thread and I agree with his wording. There’s a distinct line. |
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"Woman walking home alone at midnight with headphones on so she is unaware of her surroundings and a possible attack.
Man goes to meet a total stranger off the internet in the woods where a gang may be waiting.
When people give advice on avoiding such situations they are often accused of victim blaming.
Should people give common sense advice or not?
There's a line between offering common sense on personal safety and telling a victim that it was their fault that it happened.
Someone d*unk and alone late at night is vulnerable, they don't get assaulted by themselves though.
The simple fact is that it is always the perpetrator at fault, no one ever sets out to be mugged, beaten or assaulted. Can we look back and recognise flaws in judgement? Maybe, but hindsight from the comfort of our armchairs is always very clear and judgement helps no one, especially not the victim.
The person at fault is *always* the one that commits the crime.
"
This is the one you mean I think Estella .
And whilst I agree that no one sets out out to mugged , beaten or assaulted , we are , each and every one of us , responsible for own actions . If we go out and get pissed on our own in a known rough area then there is a portion of blame to be placed on the victim .
I don’t remember the op asking if she thought it would help or hinder if we judged the victim . Simply was it a case of whether we should offer common sense advice despite being seen as victim shaming to do so .
I say yes we should offer the advice and if it’s ignored the victim will inevitably be victim shamed . How else will anyone learn ? The perpetrator is in the wrong , I fully accept that . But the victim being in the wrong place at the wrong time chose to take that risk , despite being warned not to . So there is blame to be attached to the victim too . |
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By (user no longer on site) OP
over a year ago
|
"Woman walking home alone at midnight with headphones on so she is unaware of her surroundings and a possible attack.
Man goes to meet a total stranger off the internet in the woods where a gang may be waiting.
When people give advice on avoiding such situations they are often accused of victim blaming.
Should people give common sense advice or not?
There's a line between offering common sense on personal safety and telling a victim that it was their fault that it happened.
Someone d*unk and alone late at night is vulnerable, they don't get assaulted by themselves though.
The simple fact is that it is always the perpetrator at fault, no one ever sets out to be mugged, beaten or assaulted. Can we look back and recognise flaws in judgement? Maybe, but hindsight from the comfort of our armchairs is always very clear and judgement helps no one, especially not the victim.
The person at fault is *always* the one that commits the crime.
This is the one you mean I think Estella .
And whilst I agree that no one sets out out to mugged , beaten or assaulted , we are , each and every one of us , responsible for own actions . If we go out and get pissed on our own in a known rough area then there is a portion of blame to be placed on the victim .
I don’t remember the op asking if she thought it would help or hinder if we judged the victim . Simply was it a case of whether we should offer common sense advice despite being seen as victim shaming to do so .
I say yes we should offer the advice and if it’s ignored the victim will inevitably be victim shamed . How else will anyone learn ? The perpetrator is in the wrong , I fully accept that . But the victim being in the wrong place at the wrong time chose to take that risk , despite being warned not to . So there is blame to be attached to the victim too ."
 |
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By *stellaWoman
over a year ago
London |
"Woman walking home alone at midnight with headphones on so she is unaware of her surroundings and a possible attack.
Man goes to meet a total stranger off the internet in the woods where a gang may be waiting.
When people give advice on avoiding such situations they are often accused of victim blaming.
Should people give common sense advice or not?
There's a line between offering common sense on personal safety and telling a victim that it was their fault that it happened.
Someone d*unk and alone late at night is vulnerable, they don't get assaulted by themselves though.
The simple fact is that it is always the perpetrator at fault, no one ever sets out to be mugged, beaten or assaulted. Can we look back and recognise flaws in judgement? Maybe, but hindsight from the comfort of our armchairs is always very clear and judgement helps no one, especially not the victim.
The person at fault is *always* the one that commits the crime.
This is the one you mean I think Estella .
And whilst I agree that no one sets out out to mugged , beaten or assaulted , we are , each and every one of us , responsible for own actions . If we go out and get pissed on our own in a known rough area then there is a portion of blame to be placed on the victim .
I don’t remember the op asking if she thought it would help or hinder if we judged the victim . Simply was it a case of whether we should offer common sense advice despite being seen as victim shaming to do so .
I say yes we should offer the advice and if it’s ignored the victim will inevitably be victim shamed . How else will anyone learn ? The perpetrator is in the wrong , I fully accept that . But the victim being in the wrong place at the wrong time chose to take that risk , despite being warned not to . So there is blame to be attached to the victim too ."
I understand your point, I disagree that offering personal safety advice to people is victim shaming - I do think that most blaming a victim for their behaviour as cause of their assault when they get assaulted often is. |
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It's like knife crime in London. If i lived in an area where there was a chance id get stabbed if i was on the streets late at night, id make sure that I, and my loved ones wouldn't be out late at night. I wouldn't start carrying a Tenon saw for example. |
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"However, the responsibility for committing a crime lies with the perpetrator.
Totally agreed, but denial of reality is cold comfort.
No point preaching common sense. You have it or you don't.
Agreed re. Reality, but still should be able to walk in the street when you want too.."
Totally with you there, no excuse at all for any unprovoked attack - it doesn’t matter whether I’m walking naked home, pissed as a fart or ‘conservatively clothed’, no one has the right to attack me  |
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By *hickennchipsWoman
over a year ago
up above the streets and houses |
"It's like knife crime in London. If i lived in an area where there was a chance id get stabbed if i was on the streets late at night, id make sure that I, and my loved ones wouldn't be out late at night. I wouldn't start carrying a Tenon saw for example. "
I quite agree. Common sense prevails |
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People are free to give appropriate information to others, most especially when requested. It's appropriate to be honest and not to have covert games in play, such as putting someone down, inviting them into trouble, or score points somehow.
Victim blaming is not acceptable. Let people know you care, if that is your hidden intent - we all learn continuously and some may be behind the curve and haven't realised something that others know. We're all just different and it's right to guide and support, without needing to covertly attack at the same time.
People will seemingly do silly things - we're not in others shoes and know what may be in their minds. But always wanting well for others is fair. |
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"People are free to give appropriate information to others, most especially when requested. It's appropriate to be honest and not to have covert games in play, such as putting someone down, inviting them into trouble, or score points somehow.
Victim blaming is not acceptable. Let people know you care, if that is your hidden intent - we all learn continuously and some may be behind the curve and haven't realised something that others know. We're all just different and it's right to guide and support, without needing to covertly attack at the same time.
People will seemingly do silly things - we're not in others shoes and know what may be in their minds. But always wanting well for others is fair. "
When we were active in the dogging scene , there were attacks being made on tvs is a certain spot , so we let all our tv friends know that it was best avoided . Two days after we told one of our closest tv friends , he was attacked in the very spot we told him to avoid . Inevitably we and everyone else ‘ victim shamed ‘ him . The amount of people who said ‘ the silly sod should have known better ‘ , and he did . We and many others had warned him . Fortunately he wasn’t seriously hurt , and although he was robbed and had a black eye with a few cuts and scrapes it could have been a lot worse .
So with the best of intentions , you can’t force anyone to do or not do anything . But the resultant effect of people not heeding good advice will sadly but inevitably lead to victim shaming . That certainly doesn’t mean I justify the attack in any way shape or form though . |
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By *hickennchipsWoman
over a year ago
up above the streets and houses |
"If i walked through Saudi Arabia with a T shirt depicting Mohammed sucking off Donald Trump, would my subsequent murder be my fault or the mob that killed me?"
Yours for being dumb wearing it |
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By (user no longer on site) OP
over a year ago
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"People are free to give appropriate information to others, most especially when requested. It's appropriate to be honest and not to have covert games in play, such as putting someone down, inviting them into trouble, or score points somehow.
Victim blaming is not acceptable. Let people know you care, if that is your hidden intent - we all learn continuously and some may be behind the curve and haven't realised something that others know. We're all just different and it's right to guide and support, without needing to covertly attack at the same time.
People will seemingly do silly things - we're not in others shoes and know what may be in their minds. But always wanting well for others is fair.
When we were active in the dogging scene , there were attacks being made on tvs is a certain spot , so we let all our tv friends know that it was best avoided . Two days after we told one of our closest tv friends , he was attacked in the very spot we told him to avoid . Inevitably we and everyone else ‘ victim shamed ‘ him . The amount of people who said ‘ the silly sod should have known better ‘ , and he did . We and many others had warned him . Fortunately he wasn’t seriously hurt , and although he was robbed and had a black eye with a few cuts and scrapes it could have been a lot worse .
So with the best of intentions , you can’t force anyone to do or not do anything . But the resultant effect of people not heeding good advice will sadly but inevitably lead to victim shaming . That certainly doesn’t mean I justify the attack in any way shape or form though ."
I think it's the right thing to warn people of any risks. It's up to them what they do with the information. |
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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago
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Just reading a post and interesting reading various replies and arguments and it got me thinking about this topic and many of the responses in here.
Cheating. Do many hold the same views on this subject as they hold in here?
Who is the victim in this situation?
It seems common to victimise those who will meet people who are on here behind their partners back, and many comments defending those who do as 'we mustn't judge's.
Any thoughts? |
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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago
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"If i walked through Saudi Arabia with a T shirt depicting Mohammed sucking off Donald Trump, would my subsequent murder be my fault or the mob that killed me?"
Think you make a valid case. This however maybe seen a a crime and punishable by death there. If is were say in central America they may not be offended at all.
This forum has made me question one thing and that is 'maybe the implied term of victimising is wrong. Telling the victim he/she were wrong because they chose their 'right' to do something over common sense is right and we as a society have take personal rights too far over social good. |
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