FabSwingers.com > Forums > The Lounge > Should some people HAVE to use private healthcare

Should some people HAVE to use private healthcare

By (user no longer on site) OP over a year ago

After a thread and a subsequent discussion about what is a drain on the nhs I was thinking..

Should people that for instance like to take sexual risks have to go private IF they catch something..??

Should overweight people be made to pay extra, along with smokers, drug takers, drinker etc..???

Do you think if a lifestyle choice makes you a higher risk of illness or needing medical care that you should have to ahve something in place to sort it yourself..

I think it would be a good idea... however many of the things are social status related and I am guessing could make it worse..

But for instance.. I was at my biggest looking to have a gastric band fitted and had already decided that I would fund the £2500 to have it done and go private..

SO what do you think.???

Cali

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By (user no longer on site) over a year ago

privatise the NHS and be done with it....that's what I say!!!!!

But seriously.....before you all lynch me.....I used to do a lot of extreme things in my younger years...mountaineering, free climbing and even parkour....I always carried private health insurnace, and paid through the nose for it. My thinking was that I was choosing to pose serious risks to my health, so why should the NHS have to deal with me if I ever had any injuries requiring hospitalisation/treatment. Have carried health insurance ever since, never know when you may need it

So I have no problems in high risk takers having to carry their own health insurance, and pay according to the risks they choose to take.

Am gonna crawl back under my rock now to read the obits.

stay safe! xx

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By (user no longer on site) OP over a year ago

See thats the same with me..although you know its almost impossible to get health care to cover admitting your sexually risky lol :S

And a lot of places hike the premiums if over weight.. in fact when I was 20stone I couldnt get private healthcare..

Cali

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By (user no longer on site) over a year ago

If everyone with an appointment bothered to turn up as appointed and then took the drugs they were prescribed as instructed that would save the NHS billions in the 1st place. That includes all health services like dentists opticians GP's let alone hospital appointments.... ok rant over lol

I can promise you all those that can afford it go private now !!!

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By (user no longer on site) OP over a year ago

That always annoys me too actually.. I never dont call to cancel appointments.. and always take any medication given..

TO be honest after my experience last year with cervical cancer scare... I would happily go private as I had about 12 weeks in total of worrying myself stupid.. yet someone that went private was sorted out a hell of a lot quicker.

Cali

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By *ugby 123Couple over a year ago
Forum Mod

O o O oo

I think it happens a lot now...if you are overweight and need surgery they will tell you lose weight...if you smoke they will tell you to pack up smoking.

If someone is so overweight that is causing health prblems, then it might be cheaper for the NHS to do the op.

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By *lam rockerMan over a year ago

Tain

is it worth having the argument that people with children are also a burden and how single people and those without children pick up the tab for their education too.

We have been lucky in the UK that we have had since 1947 healthcare for all, free and available. Would I want to change that? No! Would I want to pay a little extra to guarantee it stays? Yes!

However, deciding who pays what in a semi-privatised system would be a nightmare and we do not want to get to the state of people not seeking medical help because of the cost involved.

Be grateful that you have the choice to go NHS or private and that there is always someone there to help in an emergency.

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By (user no longer on site) over a year ago

The danger with this is where the lines are drawn. Does anyone really live a risk free normal life?

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By (user no longer on site) OP over a year ago

"I think it happens a lot now...if you are overweight and need surgery they will tell you lose weight...if you smoke they will tell you to pack up smoking.

If someone is so overweight that is causing health prblems, then it might be cheaper for the NHS to do the op."

I took the option of doing it myself as I had to lose a few stone before they would allow me the operation anyway.. They also told me there was a huge waiting list.. so.. after a few months of dieting and losing weight what was the point...

My mum smoked 60 a day... and died from smoking related ailments.

I just mean that if you choose to partake in a lifestyle that makes you a high risk.. then you should have to contribute more..

When I was doing a lot of motorsport I had private insurance.. as lets face it I was more at risk..

Cali

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By (user no longer on site) over a year ago

the NHS should be for every one, it would become a paperwork nightmare to try and seperate those who should be entielted and those not,besides we dont want to have a multi tear system like in the good old US of A ,NOT,when in many caces if you dont have the proper insurance you just dont get,and for what ever reason,some people cant aford ,So guys and girls lets not go down the ruit of ,i am alright Jack.My wife is a long suffering nurse and she gets a mix bag some that by all accounts could afford private,and some not so fortunate ,my sister had bowel cancer and has now got chrones and short bowel syndrome ,for her to afford the medication and care she gets would be un afordable and ther are thousands of people like her .And please remember to put the and the care of our nation into a PROFIT making company would be contemptable ,remember the word profit,looked what hapened to the clenleness of our hospitials whe the goverment put the domestic and cleaning out to tender.

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By *ugby 123Couple over a year ago
Forum Mod

O o O oo

I think if you are doing something risky yes, then maybe get insurance for it so it isn't a drain on the NHS.

BUT, where would you draw the line...a man playing sunday league football breaks a leg on the pitch...would they get turned away because it was their choice to play football?

A swinger catches an STD...will they be refused because they knew the risks?

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By (user no longer on site) over a year ago

Also like saying about skin cancer. I have had two people close to me die from it. First one was a best friend who used to use sunbeds and was a sun worshipper. Second one was my sister who never used sunbeds and wasn't a sun worshipper. Both lost their lives from it. So how do we distinguish, who does what and whether their illness is through something they have chosen to do that has inflicted it.

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By (user no longer on site) over a year ago

i have private healthcare and wouldnt be without it

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By (user no longer on site) over a year ago

Its great in theory but when it comes to it you end up with big problems -

Do the people that can afford to get private health care still have to pay taxes that go to the NHS? if so why should they? they are paying for a service which they aren't allowed to use.

do people that drive cars have to pay private health care, ride motorcycles, have to walk down busy roads with no street lights to get too and from work?

Do the people who cant afford private health care have to sit around in a park on a bench and not do anything risky at all, because they cant stay at home,,, the majority of all accidents occur in the home/garden?

if someone is over weight due to an undiagnosed thyroid problem do they get punished for that and made to pay private health until they find out what the problem is?

its all well and good having a dual standard system.. but where do the lines get drawn and what about the people who cant afford private healthcare that have kids who want to go mountain biking with their friends ? are they just supposed to hang out on the streets? alone? bored? boredom leads to trouble.. trouble leads to accidents and that puts more of a strain on the weaker NHS

because less people are paying in tax money to the NHS because they want a riskier lifestyle so therfore dont pay the tax that goes to the hospitals..

OR are you proposing that people fund a services that they are not allowed to use?

and that's why it wouldn't work.

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By (user no longer on site) over a year ago

Just as an FYI, we do already have private health care.

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By (user no longer on site) over a year ago

"is it worth having the argument that people with children are also a burden and how single people and those without children pick up the tab for their education too.

We have been lucky in the UK that we have had since 1947 healthcare for all, free and available. Would I want to change that? No! Would I want to pay a little extra to guarantee it stays? Yes!

However, deciding who pays what in a semi-privatised system would be a nightmare and we do not want to get to the state of people not seeking medical help because of the cost involved.

Be grateful that you have the choice to go NHS or private and that there is always someone there to help in an emergency.

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By *emima_puddlefuckCouple over a year ago

hexham

"is it worth having the argument that people with children are also a burden and how single people and those without children pick up the tab for their education too.

We have been lucky in the UK that we have had since 1947 healthcare for all, free and available. Would I want to change that? No! Would I want to pay a little extra to guarantee it stays? Yes!

However, deciding who pays what in a semi-privatised system would be a nightmare and we do not want to get to the state of people not seeking medical help because of the cost involved.

Be grateful that you have the choice to go NHS or private and that there is always someone there to help in an emergency.

+1"

free at the point of delivery, a fundamental value as far as i am concerned. The fact is if you get a smoking/weight related illness the doctors expect you to play a part in your treatment, and have for many years.

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By (user no longer on site) over a year ago

I don't think I'd change things.

To me you already have a dual system in some respects. For example my Mom got to jump the queue and have an operation privately because she had the health insurance. The irony was that she got the very same doctor she would have been treated by if she'd waited on the NHS.

I don't think it would be practical for the NHS to take a life history and weigh up the pros and cons of whether your lifestyle has contributed to your ailments. They barely have time to listen now never mind sit on judgement of how you have ended up being ill.

And what if you didn't agree that your lifestyle was to blame? Appeals could take ages and tie the NHS in knots.

The fact is we already DO pay enormous amounts of money into the NHS. Was it one pound in four goes into it? The system has gigantic amounts of cash going into it and should be fit to serve all the people here.

Should we do more to encourage people to look after themselves, quit smoking, exercise more and turn up for appointments? Sure but that's as far as I'd go.

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By (user no longer on site) over a year ago

Yeah everyone who does not pay into the NHS should not get out of the NHS

If you have worked all your life and always paid taxes then you should get NHS care regardless of why your ill

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By (user no longer on site) over a year ago

Some drugs that you get from the doctor make you gain weight, my dog had to take steroids for severe eczema, lots of people have to take them too for lots of different things, they make people really hungry all the time, then they put on weight. Also know someone with bipolar, who has always been very slim, then when she got severe depression had to be put on drugs that made her put on weight. Also not everyone can excercise as much as they would like to because of back problems or having bad feet, which can be very painful. Having health problems can make you depressed and want to comfort eat.

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By *iamondsmiles.Woman over a year ago

little house on the praire

Well ive done my bit for the NHS i didnt hace gastic bypass that costs£10000 plus ive come of some medication,. My mum is just paying 9/2 thousand for an o she would of got on the health service

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By (user no longer on site) over a year ago

I would rather not eat than have a gastric bypass, i hate having opperations, and they are not always safe either.

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By *waymanMan over a year ago

newcastle

"I don't think I'd change things.

And what if you didn't agree that your lifestyle was to blame? Appeals could take ages and tie the NHS in knots.

Should we do more to encourage people to look after themselves, quit smoking, exercise more and turn up for appointments? Sure but that's as far as I'd go.

Figure you've quoted is for health care as a proportion of public spending. The NHS is one of the most efficient health providers in Europe. In the US they spend 15% of GDP on healthcare (public and private) the figure for the UK is nearer 8% (public and private).

Much of the gap in spending is because there aren't the leakages in the UK that you have in the US, with trillions being spent on insurance companies, assessment, policy limitation management and all the other that comes with a non universal system of provision.

Want an example of what I mean? Let's take Cali's risky behaviour example. We reduce the range of NHS treatments for STI's, and start charging for the rest. Ms X presents to her GP with an STI. She is 19. When told it'll be £1250 for her treatment, she says, 'Ay, but I was raped and have never reported it because I'm traumatized.' Doctor says 'computer says no.'

Ms X sues.

She wins.

Cost of her treatment is £15,000 to cover the cost of her lawyers and the court case.

Add your own personal examples. Incidentally, we've tried something like this before. A Road Traffic Act of the late 60's introduced the idea of charging drivers a fee if they presented at A&E after an RTC; the money involved is a pain in the arse as hospitals struggle to collect it and farm the work out to debt collection agencies....

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By (user no longer on site) over a year ago

As much as I'd love the NHS in it's current guise to be scrapped completely and a new system put into place that places emphasis on HEALTH CARE, I know it won't happen. Not in my lifetime anyway.

What I would like to see is people charged a booking fee for GP appointments but it is only collected if they fail to show up and not phone to cancel. I'd like to see chemists take back unused medicines for recycling and reduce the sheer quantity of new drugs from pharmaceutical companies.

Yes, I'd like to see those who engage in activities more likely to cause injury have some sort of added N.I. payments deducted from their salaries - an N.I.+ if you like.

Self inflicted injuries? Cough up pal!

RTAs where you are the cause of it? Cough up pal!

It bugs the hell out of me that I have to contribute to a system that so full of holes that it's leaking cash like a sieve and there's nothing I can do about it.

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By *emima_puddlefuckCouple over a year ago

hexham

"As much as I'd love the NHS in it's current guise to be scrapped completely and a new system put into place that places emphasis on HEALTH CARE, I know it won't happen. Not in my lifetime anyway.

Yes, I'd like to see those who engage in activities more likely to cause injury have some sort of added N.I. payments deducted from their salaries - an N.I.+ if you like.

Self inflicted injuries? Cough up pal!

RTAs where you are the cause of it? Cough up pal!

It bugs the hell out of me that I have to contribute to a system that so full of holes that it's leaking cash like a sieve and there's nothing I can do about it."

Child birth where you were not raped...a choice surely...so cough up?

People who refuse to abort disabled children...choosing to be a drain on resources...so cough up?

Old people who trip and fall leaving the house...should have been more careful...so cough up?

Self harmers, who are suffering from a serious mental illness...cough up?

Failed suicides...cough up?

Which lines are acceptable ?

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By (user no longer on site) over a year ago

"Self inflicted injuries? Cough up pal!"

Self harm is a self inflicted injury... but also a mental medical illness.

Not everything is as black and white as people may think. Life would be so much simpler if it was... but I think kind of dull also!

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By (user no longer on site) over a year ago

"Self inflicted injuries? Cough up pal!

Self harm is a self inflicted injury... but also a mental medical illness.

Not everything is as black and white as people may think. Life would be so much simpler if it was... but I think kind of dull also!"

totally right, noone in their sane mind tried to kill themselves or self harms, people do it because they are at a point in their lifes where they are not coping and are suffering from some kind of mental illness

so we turn them away and punish them for being ill?

All because you cant see a ilness does not mean its not there

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By (user no longer on site) over a year ago

"Child birth where you were not raped...a choice surely...so cough up?"

Is that self inflicted?

"People who refuse to abort disabled children...choosing to be a drain on resources...so cough up?"

Is that self inflicted?

Old people who trip and fall leaving the house...should have been more careful...so cough up?"

Is that self inflicted?

Self harmers, who are suffering from a serious mental illness...cough up?"

Is that self inflicted to the point where they were mentally aware of what they were doing?

Failed suicides...cough up??"

Is that self inflicted to the point that they knew what they were doing?

I'm talking about people who go mountain climbing, base jumping, bunjee jumping, sailing across the fookin Atlantic in a frigging canoe fgs. Those kind of extreme ativities that are likely to cause injury. Or people who drive their cars at 100mph and crash it. Or get pissed, start a fight and get pummelled to crap on a Saturday night in town.

Those sorts of self inflicted injuries that could easily be avoided - those sorts of injuries should be chargeable but not under the NHS as it is now where N.I. payments *should* cater for anything you'd need a health service for, but it doesn't work like that does it. Doctors can play god and withhold treatment if they feel you are being detrimental to your own well-being (smoking, drinking, drug-taking), but hey, throw yourself off a building and land awkwardly (base jumping) and Joe Public will foot the bill!

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By *waymanMan over a year ago

newcastle

"As much as I'd love the NHS in it's current guise to be scrapped completely and a new system put into place that places emphasis on HEALTH CARE, I know it won't happen. Not in my lifetime anyway.

Yes, I'd like to see those who engage in activities more likely to cause injury have some sort of added N.I. payments deducted from their salaries - an N.I.+ if you like.

Self inflicted injuries? Cough up pal!

RTAs where you are the cause of it? Cough up pal!

It bugs the hell out of me that I have to contribute to a system that so full of holes that it's leaking cash like a sieve and there's nothing I can do about it."

The trouble is it's not leaking money like a sieve. It's twice as efficient as the US system, and delivers a much less wide variation in outcomes and standards than the US.

The irony involved in charging people a fee if they're too sick to turn up for a GPs appointment may have escaped you - it tickled me.

You're right about the harm big pharma does with the drugs bill, but if you do switch off their revenues, you'll have to be prepared to fund more research directly.

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By *emima_puddlefuckCouple over a year ago

hexham

"Child birth where you were not raped...a choice surely...so cough up?

Is that self inflicted?

People who refuse to abort disabled children...choosing to be a drain on resources...so cough up?

Is that self inflicted?

Old people who trip and fall leaving the house...should have been more careful...so cough up?

Is that self inflicted?

Self harmers, who are suffering from a serious mental illness...cough up?

Is that self inflicted to the point where they were mentally aware of what they were doing?

Failed suicides...cough up??

Is that self inflicted to the point that they knew what they were doing?

The point i was trying to make is that your defintion of self inflicted applies only to you...

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By (user no longer on site) over a year ago

I'm sure there are a lot of smart people out there that could draw up a definitive list of what could be deems to be self-inflicted injuries that are not a result of injuries caused because of mental illness. I listed just a few that popped into my head as an example.

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By (user no longer on site) over a year ago

"As much as I'd love the NHS in it's current guise to be scrapped completely and a new system put into place that places emphasis on HEALTH CARE, I know it won't happen. Not in my lifetime anyway.

Yes, I'd like to see those who engage in activities more likely to cause injury have some sort of added N.I. payments deducted from their salaries - an N.I.+ if you like.

Self inflicted injuries? Cough up pal!

RTAs where you are the cause of it? Cough up pal!

It bugs the hell out of me that I have to contribute to a system that so full of holes that it's leaking cash like a sieve and there's nothing I can do about it."

You know that horrible current system you want to see scrapped, with all the pointless managers and backroom staff?

Well they are all there because of ideas like yours. The instant you have a transfer of money from A to B for care with contracts you suddenly need an awful lot of accountants, finance staff, lawyers (almost all well paid) plus a whole management team for them who are even better paid and then directors for these services who are paid even more still to take the fall/make decisions.

Thats what happens more and more every time a little bit of privatisation creeps in.

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By *etitesaraTV/TS over a year ago

rochdale

Hmmm, self-inflicted injuries - could be a bit of a slippery slope there.

Most people who partake in outdoor sports are noticably fitter than the average citizen.

An amateur sunday footballer who breaks his leg, the mountain biker (like me) who breaks a limb on a remote hillside etc.

Yes, they take up NHS resources, but because they are fitter and healthier than the average overweight and smoking citizen of these fair isles their overall cost to the public purse will be smaller in the long term, obesity, smoking and over drinking are the main drains on long term NHS funds.

So, would we rather have a Nation of people who sit at home in front of the TV stuffing their faces and never doing anything strenuous in case they have an injury - or a Nation of healthy people who take plenty of regular exercise and just occasionally have an injury?

I know what i'd prefer.

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By (user no longer on site) over a year ago

Great point Sarah.

Wishy where on earth have you dredged up the idea that the NHS is being bankrupted by "base jumpers, mountain climbers and people who row across the Atlantic"??

That is completely bizarre.

One question I'd have for you. Presumably you'd be in favour of all school rugby, football, cricket and hockey teams having to fork out for private health insurance as their dangerous pastimes could put a strain on the NHS?

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By (user no longer on site) over a year ago

"Great point Sarah.

Wishy where on earth have you dredged up the idea that the NHS is being bankrupted by "base jumpers, mountain climbers and people who row across the Atlantic"??

That is completely bizarre.

Where have I said the NHS was being bankrupted by people who take part in hazardous sports? Please point out where I said that precisely.

I am in favour of a system of healthcare where those that take part in hazardous activities, through their own choice, pay for any healthcare they need as a result of those activities.

Not people who have suffered injury through no fault of their own going about their daily lives. Nor those who are disabled in some way via accident of birth, or those deemed mentally ill who cannot take responsibility for their actions.

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By *hetalkingstoveMan over a year ago

London

It'd just be too difficult to implement.

If football is ok, and mountain climbing isn't, what about ice skating? Horse riding? Do we want to spend NHS money fighting legal battles over what constitutes a dangerous activity? That's what would likely happen.

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By *iewMan over a year ago
Forum Mod

Angus & Findhorn

I do... & I do...

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By *etitesaraTV/TS over a year ago

rochdale

So what constitutes a dangerous activity?

From a cost point of _iew, smoking, drinking and unhealthy eating/overeating are the biggest drains on the NHS so perhaps we should start with those activities before we move onto activities that have a proven health benefit - such as cycling, hill walking, playing football/rugby etc...

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By *emima_puddlefuckCouple over a year ago

hexham

"Great point Sarah.

Wishy where on earth have you dredged up the idea that the NHS is being bankrupted by "base jumpers, mountain climbers and people who row across the Atlantic"??

That is completely bizarre.

Where have I said the NHS was being bankrupted by people who take part in hazardous sports? Please point out where I said that precisely.

I am in favour of a system of healthcare where those that take part in hazardous activities, through their own choice, pay for any healthcare they need as a result of those activities.

you said people who inflicted their own injuries should be made to pay...if people choose to take part in sport and that lads to injury by your reasoning then ppl shoulfd pay...

i think you are missing the philosophical point many of us have tried to make though, once some are excluded from the nhs because of lifetyle decisions then where will the line be drawn.

To go back to the lifetyle choice of having a baby...

the cost of a midwife...(from journal of midwifery)

antenatal, £287.60,

birth £240.90

postnatal £470.84

These do not include home births, caersians ect, or the other costs just for the midwife...

So the coat of the midwife is £1000.34

last year there were 708,708 live births in the Uk, costing the taxpayer 708m pounds just for the cost of one midwife...for a lifestyle choice...

Not sure how much bungee jumpers cost the Uk but i am sure it is a lot less.

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By (user no longer on site) over a year ago

"you said people who inflicted their own injuries should be made to pay...if people choose to take part in sport and that lads to injury by your reasoning then ppl shoulfd pay...

i think you are missing the philosophical point many of us have tried to make though, once some are excluded from the nhs because of lifetyle decisions then where will the line be drawn.

To go back to the lifetyle choice of having a baby...

the cost of a midwife...(from journal of midwifery)

antenatal, £287.60,

birth £240.90

postnatal £470.84

These do not include home births, caersians ect, or the other costs just for the midwife...

So the coat of the midwife is £1000.34

last year there were 708,708 live births in the Uk, costing the taxpayer 708m pounds just for the cost of one midwife...for a lifestyle choice...

Not sure how much bungee jumpers cost the Uk but i am sure it is a lot less.

What I said was: "As much as I'd love the NHS in it's current guise to be scrapped completely and a new system put into place that places emphasis on HEALTH CARE, I know it won't happen. Not in my lifetime anyway.

Yes, I'd like to see those who engage in activities more likely to cause injury have some sort of added N.I. payments deducted from their salaries - an N.I.+ if you like."

Now nowhere in there did I say that ALL sportspersons should have to pay for their treatment. I said those engaged in hazardous activities.

How does one midwife cost £708m?? Do you want to rethink your maths there?

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By *waymanMan over a year ago

newcastle

"It'd just be too difficult to implement.

My point precisely.

As soon as you move away from universal provision you increase costs, and if those changes allow lawyers to get involved you increase costs exponentially.

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By (user no longer on site) over a year ago

"So what constitutes a dangerous activity?

I'm 46 and have smoked most of my life, yet I have never stayed overnight in hospital apart from the first few days of my life when it was almost mandatory for women to stay in for five days or more. I've worked damned hard these past 25 years so I think I've paid for any healthcare I'll need later in life, so I'll have a drink and a smoke to celebrate that. Ta.

Ok, that was flippant.

I recognise that the elderly, the infirm and the weak in our society cannot contribute as much as the fit, healthy and strong, and so need to be assisted in some way, be that financially or with heathcare paid for by others. I know that, and I support that ideaology. What I do not support is a system that for some inexplicable reason cannot utilise technology to have a central ordering database that ensures that all NHS facilities order the goods and products they need from a central system at a cost effective price instead of the absolutely ludicrous system we have now where rubber gloves can cost £300 per box in one hospital and £10.50 in another.

The NHS has turned into something so huge that it simply swallows up cash without any idea of where it being spent. THAT'S the NHS I want scrapped. Strip away the layers of administration and bureaucracy and introduce a system of dual Healthcare where those that can, pay more than those who can't, but those who do don't end up being shunted down the list in favour of those who don't.

The healthy can get back to work quicker than those who have long term health problems, and thus contribute to the system again.

Would it shock you to realise that neothilic man took his share of the food first because the hunter needed his strength to fight and survive and to kill prey to feed the tribe. The fittest were kept fit so that all could benefit.

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By *emima_puddlefuckCouple over a year ago

hexham

"you said people who inflicted their own injuries should be made to pay...if people choose to take part in sport and that lads to injury by your reasoning then ppl shoulfd pay...

i think you are missing the philosophical point many of us have tried to make though, once some are excluded from the nhs because of lifetyle decisions then where will the line be drawn.

To go back to the lifetyle choice of having a baby...

the cost of a midwife...(from journal of midwifery)

antenatal, £287.60,

birth £240.90

postnatal £470.84

These do not include home births, caersians ect, or the other costs just for the midwife...

So the coat of the midwife is £1000.34

last year there were 708,708 live births in the Uk, costing the taxpayer 708m pounds just for the cost of one midwife...for a lifestyle choice...

Not sure how much bungee jumpers cost the Uk but i am sure it is a lot less.

Yes, I'd like to see those who engage in activities more likely to cause injury have some sort of added N.I. payments deducted from their salaries - an N.I.+ if you like."

Now nowhere in there did I say that ALL sportspersons should have to pay for their treatment. I said those engaged in hazardous activities.

How does one midwife cost £708m?? Do you want to rethink your maths there?"

do you want to reread my maths...

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By (user no longer on site) over a year ago

"do you want to reread my maths...

"last year there were 708,708 live births in the Uk, costing the taxpayer 708m pounds ***just for the cost of one midwife***"??????

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By *ushroom7Man over a year ago

Bradford

Fittest |= Healthiest.

How often do we hear of fit sportspeople, usually men, dropping down dead in no time.

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By *emima_puddlefuckCouple over a year ago

hexham

"do you want to reread my maths...

"last year there were 708,708 live births in the Uk, costing the taxpayer 708m pounds ***just for the cost of one midwife***"??????"

per birth

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By *etitesaraTV/TS over a year ago

rochdale

Fittest |= Healthiest.

How often do we hear of fit sportspeople, usually men, dropping down dead in no time.

...and how many people suffering from obesity-led heart problems drop each week? Considering the numbers of people involved with activities each week then it's no wonder a statistical anomaly reaches the news.

I had a heart scare last year, full blues-and-twos job. Ambulance machine siad i was having a heart attack so off to Manchester Royal i was whisked.

Turns out i had a mild chest infection and a reaction to ibuprofen. Added to that my extremely low resting heart rate - 44bpm as opposed to the UK average of around 70bpm - and i fooled the machine!

I'm still far less likely to die of heart disease than a similar person of my age who is overweight and/or smokes.

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By (user no longer on site) over a year ago

[Removed by poster at 01/02/12 20:49:18]

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By (user no longer on site) over a year ago

"do you want to reread my maths...

"last year there were 708,708 live births in the Uk, costing the taxpayer 708m pounds ***just for the cost of one midwife***"??????

per birth

£708m per birth?

Isn't it more like £1k per birth? I've had three children so that's £3k, never stayed overnight in hossie myself but the kids have had jabs etc so add another couple of £k to that.

I've more than paid for my kid's healthcare to date. If it all costs as much as you say it does then I've paid for other people's kid's healthcare too, it seems.

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By (user no longer on site) over a year ago

They way people go on you'd think that BUPA are rubbing their hands with glee to take on smokers the overweight, etc.

BUPA are like a health club, they want rich people to pay their subs and not use the facilities.

The fact when push comes to shove, the NHS will treat you in a emergency anyway, because they have the equipment and expertise. How many private hospitals have A+E's.

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By (user no longer on site) over a year ago

"So what constitutes a dangerous activity?

Ok, that was flippant.

The healthy can get back to work quicker than those who have long term health problems, and thus contribute to the system again.

Honestly did you not read what I put higher up about why there's the layers of administration? Having a 2 tiered system will not make it better only worse and I do not believe for a second a single box of gloves cost £300 I know the NHS gets ripped off but no one would pay that unless it was an emergency (and central ordering would just make delays more likely)

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By (user no longer on site) over a year ago

Well, i have only had one kid so i havnt cost the NHS as much as some people. And he has been lucky not to have had any health problems or fillings when he went to the dentist.

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By (user no longer on site) over a year ago

My hubby is 70, never goes to the doctors and has only ever been to hospital for a vasectomy, so he hasnt cost the NHS much at all, so far.

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By *waymanMan over a year ago

newcastle

"So what constitutes a dangerous activity?

Ok, that was flippant.

The healthy can get back to work quicker than those who have long term health problems, and thus contribute to the system again.

Twice I've pointed out that the NHS is twice as efficent as the American mixed market, and twice you've ignored it. Any reason why?

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By *waymanMan over a year ago

newcastle

"So what constitutes a dangerous activity?

Ok, that was flippant.

The healthy can get back to work quicker than those who have long term health problems, and thus contribute to the system again.

That's the worst piece of made up anthropology I've ever read.

If the men get first share of the food it would seem to me, in a finite resources model, to be a very poor survival strategy, since the men would survive, but the women and children wouldn't.

There's probably one word you can use for family groups that follow those tactics.

Extinct.

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By *atisfy janeWoman over a year ago

Torquay

[Removed by poster at 01/02/12 21:16:13]

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By *atisfy janeWoman over a year ago

Torquay

You will always find someone who knocks the NHS, goes on about how much it costs, the waste, how they would opt out of it if they could etc...etc.

Until they or someone close to them need it all of a sudden....then you won't hear them bleating about it.

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By *etitesaraTV/TS over a year ago

rochdale

"They way people go on you'd think that BUPA are rubbing their hands with glee to take on smokers the overweight, etc.

BUPA are like a health club, they want rich people to pay their subs and not use the facilities.

The fact when push comes to shove, the NHS will treat you in a emergency anyway, because they have the equipment and expertise. How many private hospitals have A+E's.

Add to the fact that if things go wrong or you need critical care in a private hospital you'll be dropped back into the NHS as soon as possible!

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By (user no longer on site) over a year ago

"That's the worst piece of made up anthropology I've ever read.

If the men get first share of the food it would seem to me, in a finite resources model, to be a very poor survival strategy, since the men would survive, but the women and children wouldn't.

There's probably one word you can use for family groups that follow those tactics.

Extinct."

Go and research it then. Have a look for lions and how a pride operates. Go on, see if you can find out if the alpha lion takes his share first.

We were no different.

Why don't you ever back up what you say instead of simply disputing it?

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By (user no longer on site) over a year ago

"Twice I've pointed out that the NHS is twice as efficent as the American mixed market, and twice you've ignored it. Any reason why?"

I'm not in fookin America, that's why. Their system doesn't apply to me but our inefficient, badly run NHS does.

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By *ath-N-DelCouple over a year ago

Glasgow area

"You will always find someone who knocks the NHS, goes on about how much it costs, the waste, how they would opt out of it if they could etc...etc.

Until they or someone close to them need it all of a sudden....then you won't hear them bleating about it."

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By (user no longer on site) over a year ago

"Twice I've pointed out that the NHS is twice as efficent as the American mixed market, and twice you've ignored it. Any reason why?

I'm not in fookin America, that's why. Their system doesn't apply to me but our inefficient, badly run NHS does."

But it is efficient, it's more efficient than the USA, France and Germany, we suffer limited fraud and have some of the highest survival rates and one of the best life expectancys in the world. Where I'd your evidence otherwise?

Your point about comparing us to lions... Doesn't work, we're not lions, bonobo chimps, chimpanzee's, gorillas or meerkats would be better models, we're altruistic.

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By (user no longer on site) over a year ago

"You will always find someone who knocks the NHS, goes on about how much it costs, the waste, how they would opt out of it if they could etc...etc.

Until they or someone close to them need it all of a sudden....then you won't hear them bleating about it."

We had to use the NHS for the birth of our daughter this month due to a lack of a credible alternative (I don't have private healthcare but when my business is up and running it's first on my list cos it's tax deductable), but Siren was treated appallingly, and we've put in a very strongly worded letter of complaint.

Was it worth the N.I. contribs we've both paid? Not in a million years, but then I suppose that's the Tories fault for making cuts eh?

We're a Labour held ward here and they've made the required cuts that Westminster dictated they should make but they've cut front line services because that's what the media will pick up on, when they could have cut the same amount in natural wastage - but there's no political mileage in that, is there.

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By *ushroom7Man over a year ago

Bradford

I bet you were glad there were no hyena's prowling the wards.

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By (user no longer on site) over a year ago

"But it is efficient, ...have some of the highest survival rates and one of the best life expectancys in the world. Where I'd your evidence otherwise?"

My aunt died on the operating table last year when she shouldn't have. She went in for a basic op and should have survived. No case to answer though, they said.

NHS? I wouldn't piss on it if it was on fire.

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By *atisfy janeWoman over a year ago

Torquay

The thing about the NHS and the treatment that people receive, is that you never know when you, your wife or your children will need that care...and before you go on about being a smoker all your life and never spent a night in a hospital....NO-ONE, not even the most intense NHS sceptic in the country, EVER knows what is around the corner.

There could come a time, could be tomorrow for all you know, when god forbid, you or one of your children will need the expertice and dedication that a NHS hospital may have to administer to you or one of your loved ones.

I'm guessing you wouldn't be on here applauding their care however good it was though.....doesn't fit in with your narrow minded _iew of the NHS.

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By (user no longer on site) over a year ago

"The thing about the NHS and the treatment that people receive, is that you never know when you, your wife or your children will need that care...and before you go on about being a smoker all your life and never spent a night in a hospital....NO-ONE, not even the most intense NHS sceptic in the country, EVER knows what is around the corner.

I'm guessing you wouldn't be on here applauding their care however good it was though.....doesn't fit in with your narrow minded _iew of the NHS.

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By *waymanMan over a year ago

newcastle

"That's the worst piece of made up anthropology I've ever read.

If the men get first share of the food it would seem to me, in a finite resources model, to be a very poor survival strategy, since the men would survive, but the women and children wouldn't.

There's probably one word you can use for family groups that follow those tactics.

Extinct.

Go and research it then. Have a look for lions and how a pride operates. Go on, see if you can find out if the alpha lion takes his share first.

We were no different.

Why don't you ever back up what you say instead of simply disputing it?"

Were we?

Lions operate in small populations that are self limiting, meaning they have unlimited resources. A better archetype for how neolithic hunter gatherers might have operated is the elephant, who live in matriarchal clans and protect their young in a way diametrically opposed to the behaviour of lions.

You may be making a mistake of comparing the survival strategies of apex predators, like lions, with the survival strategies of animals a long way down the food chain, like primates. Priemats need to be much more adaptive than predators like lions.

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By *waymanMan over a year ago

newcastle

"You will always find someone who knocks the NHS, goes on about how much it costs, the waste, how they would opt out of it if they could etc...etc.

Until they or someone close to them need it all of a sudden....then you won't hear them bleating about it.

Was it worth the N.I. contribs we've both paid? Not in a million years, but then I suppose that's the Tories fault for making cuts eh?

Why do you think NI funds the NHS?

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By *ath-N-DelCouple over a year ago

Glasgow area

I'm guessing you wouldn't be on here applauding their care however good it was though.....doesn't fit in with your narrow minded _iew of the NHS.

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By *atisfy janeWoman over a year ago

Torquay

"But it is efficient, ...have some of the highest survival rates and one of the best life expectancys in the world. Where I'd your evidence otherwise?

My aunt died on the operating table last year when she shouldn't have. She went in for a basic op and should have survived. No case to answer though, they said.

NHS? I wouldn't piss on it if it was on fire."

There has never been more opportunity in the UK to sue the NHS, more often than not on a no win no fee basis, so if there is a case to answer a half decent law firm will establish that and sue on your families behalf....

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By (user no longer on site) over a year ago

"But it is efficient, ...have some of the highest survival rates and one of the best life expectancys in the world. Where I'd your evidence otherwise?

My aunt died on the operating table last year when she shouldn't have. She went in for a basic op and should have survived. No case to answer though, they said.

NHS? I wouldn't piss on it if it was on fire."

First thing i'm sorry to hear about your Aunty. There are always going to be patient experiences where sadly the system in my opinion fails the patient.

This is always sadly going to happen with the number of patients who access the NHS every day in my opinion. It doesnt make it right, regardless of how you try an make something perfect.

But again in my opinion the NHS does far more good than bad and this country would be a far worst place without it!

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By *waymanMan over a year ago

newcastle

"But it is efficient, ...have some of the highest survival rates and one of the best life expectancys in the world. Where I'd your evidence otherwise?

My aunt died on the operating table last year when she shouldn't have. She went in for a basic op and should have survived. No case to answer though, they said.

NHS? I wouldn't piss on it if it was on fire."

Would it make a difference if you did?

You've made your case. You've ducked the important statistics, like how efficient the NHS is, and you've explained, quite bravely, why you are so prejudiced about the NHS. Move on.

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By (user no longer on site) over a year ago

"But it is efficient, ...have some of the highest survival rates and one of the best life expectancys in the world. Where I'd your evidence otherwise?

My aunt died on the operating table last year when she shouldn't have. She went in for a basic op and should have survived. No case to answer though, they said.

NHS? I wouldn't piss on it if it was on fire.

My uncle, who is not my blood relative, decided not to pursue any negligence claims. We as the wider family have no recourse in the matter without his agreement.

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By (user no longer on site) over a year ago

"But it is efficient, ...have some of the highest survival rates and one of the best life expectancys in the world. Where I'd your evidence otherwise?

My aunt died on the operating table last year when she shouldn't have. She went in for a basic op and should have survived. No case to answer though, they said.

NHS? I wouldn't piss on it if it was on fire.

Would it make a difference if you did?

You've made your case. You've ducked the important statistics, like how efficient the NHS is, and you've explained, quite bravely, why you are so prejudiced about the NHS. Move on."

I'm not privvy to the inner workings of the NHS and neither are you. Any of us can only form an opinion of it based upon our experiences of it. My experiences of the NHS have been consistently poor and on that basis I'd scrap it in a heartbeat.

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By *iles3659Man over a year ago

Stafford

Now I couldn't possibly read all this thread - sorry.

But as someone who has spent some time in the NHS - those people who need healthcare because of dangerous sports are a tiny tiny tiny burden on the Health Service.

Big burdens:

Smokers

Alcohol Abusers

The Over-70s

that's about it.

I figure the tax paid on cigarettes probably entitles smokers to the level of healthcare they use.

Alcohol maybe less so.

And when you get to 70 you've paid enough tax to be worth it.

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By (user no longer on site) over a year ago

"But it is efficient, ...have some of the highest survival rates and one of the best life expectancys in the world. Where I'd your evidence otherwise?

My aunt died on the operating table last year when she shouldn't have. She went in for a basic op and should have survived. No case to answer though, they said.

NHS? I wouldn't piss on it if it was on fire.

Would it make a difference if you did?

You've made your case. You've ducked the important statistics, like how efficient the NHS is, and you've explained, quite bravely, why you are so prejudiced about the NHS. Move on.

Well I do have knowledge of it thankyou and what you describe is only a very tiny part of the whole.

I am very sorry for your loss but these things happen and they happen everywhere. Ever read stories of American healthcare?

What would you replace it with? Most Trusts have public governors these days and use groups why don't you join one of those and have a useful input?

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By *emima_puddlefuckCouple over a year ago

hexham

"But it is efficient, ...have some of the highest survival rates and one of the best life expectancys in the world. Where I'd your evidence otherwise?

My aunt died on the operating table last year when she shouldn't have. She went in for a basic op and should have survived. No case to answer though, they said.

NHS? I wouldn't piss on it if it was on fire."

So you show that your feelings are not impartial and despite the fact all operations carry a risk have condemned the entire health service. Yhis is a large part of the reason i avoid politics threads, people think anecdotes are evidence, and even then fail to give details which could give weight to their argument...so which private hospital was the new baby born in?

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By (user no longer on site) over a year ago

"But it is efficient, ...have some of the highest survival rates and one of the best life expectancys in the world. Where I'd your evidence otherwise?

My aunt died on the operating table last year when she shouldn't have. She went in for a basic op and should have survived. No case to answer though, they said.

NHS? I wouldn't piss on it if it was on fire.

I forgot to mention about the inherent risks of surgery no matter how routine.

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By *emima_puddlefuckCouple over a year ago

hexham

"But it is efficient, ...have some of the highest survival rates and one of the best life expectancys in the world. Where I'd your evidence otherwise?

My aunt died on the operating table last year when she shouldn't have. She went in for a basic op and should have survived. No case to answer though, they said.

NHS? I wouldn't piss on it if it was on fire.

I forgot to mention about the inherent risks of surgery no matter how routine."

or the fact only the next of kin will have been given the report into her death...which may be the reason he is not pursuing any claim.

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By (user no longer on site) over a year ago

"or the fact only the next of kin will have been given the report into her death...which may be the reason he is not pursuing any claim."

You don't know my uncle and I'm not giving any more info on it than I already have. Suffice it to say that none of were surprised by his decision. All were dismayed by it though.

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By (user no longer on site) over a year ago

"So you show that your feelings are not impartial and despite the fact all operations carry a risk have condemned the entire health service. Yhis is a large part of the reason i avoid politics threads, people think anecdotes are evidence, and even then fail to give details which could give weight to their argument...so which private hospital was the new baby born in?"

As I've already stated earlier on the thread, my opinion of the NHS was formed by my experience of it. Why are you trying to browbeat me into changing my opinion to one that you find more agreeable? You have more chance of impaling yourself on a unicorn.

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By *atisfy janeWoman over a year ago

Torquay

If you go into an NHS hospital expecting to find problems with that hospital....you will no doubt find problems.

But much the same can be said for a private health facility, the problems will be there for you to uncover if you are determined to find them.

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By (user no longer on site) over a year ago

I stopped reading this thread as I found it thoroughly disappointing to see how very insular most people are.

Where have the peeps gone who have an interest in our country as a community, moving forward together, holding in mind the health of all of our citizens, the encouragement children who are the future of our country and our culture and indeed our world, and family values.

I just don't get any of this, just a me me me, feeling reading most of the posts.

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By (user no longer on site) over a year ago

"I stopped reading this thread as I found it thoroughly disappointing to see how very insular most people are.

I just don't get any of this, just a me me me, feeling reading most of the posts."

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By *ugby 123Couple over a year ago
Forum Mod

O o O oo

I have had the misfortune to have to be under the hospital and in it twice in the last year or so.

I wasn't looking for problems in the NHS as I had never had to deal with hospitals, just an odd doc appointment.

The first problem they sorted after a shed load of cock ups that lasted 7 months of daily trips to either hospital or the doctors and three operations when the first op should have been enough.

It wasn't a pleasant experience but I didn't go into the hospital looking for problems ...they just happened with a whole load of bad decisions on their part.

The second time I had a problem, I was at the docs on the Tuesday, sent to the hospital by the Friday...they did a few tests, said come back for the results the following Friday and they apologised that it couldn't be sooner. The staff and treatment I recieved was second to none.

Both experiences were totally different...but the first one still makes me think they have it wrong big time at times. Not everyone will look for problems , but some do get them...where there are humans involved there will always be mistakes.

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By (user no longer on site) over a year ago

..and that, Ruggers, is why I believe the whole thing is outdated and has grown beyond it's original remit that was set down in 1947, and it's needs to be radically overhauled or, failing, scrapped completely.

Two people should not have different experiences from an universal healthcare system, nor should one person have two different experiences from it either. The level of care should be more than that you'd give your own child. It should be better than you expected and then some.

It isn't, and it's time it was done away with.

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By (user no longer on site) over a year ago

"..and that, Ruggers, is why I believe the whole thing is outdated and has grown beyond it's original remit that was set down in 1947, and it's needs to be radically overhauled or, failing, scrapped completely.

It isn't, and it's time it was done away with."

What an easy solution.

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By *ugby 123Couple over a year ago
Forum Mod

O o O oo

It isn't, and it's time it was done away with."

I don't think it should be scrapped, far from it...but I think when mistakes are made they shouldn't cover them up.

Sadly in my case, I think it was more lots of inconsistant doctors who were not singing from the same hymn sheet, how do you stop that happening?

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By (user no longer on site) over a year ago

It isn't, and it's time it was done away with.

I don't think it should be scrapped, far from it...but I think when mistakes are made they shouldn't cover them up.

Sadly in my case, I think it was more lots of inconsistant doctors who were not singing from the same hymn sheet, how do you stop that happening?

Stop putting in technocrats and faqing accountants to run em and get some hands on managers.

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By (user no longer on site) over a year ago

It isn't, and it's time it was done away with.

I don't think it should be scrapped, far from it...but I think when mistakes are made they shouldn't cover them up.

Sadly in my case, I think it was more lots of inconsistant doctors who were not singing from the same hymn sheet, how do you stop that happening?

Stop putting in technocrats and faqing accountants to run em and get some hands on managers."

For that you need to get rid of the internal market and have a culture change

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By (user no longer on site) over a year ago

It isn't, and it's time it was done away with.

I don't think it should be scrapped, far from it...but I think when mistakes are made they shouldn't cover them up.

Sadly in my case, I think it was more lots of inconsistant doctors who were not singing from the same hymn sheet, how do you stop that happening?

Stop putting in technocrats and faqing accountants to run em and get some hands on managers.

For that you need to get rid of the internal market and have a culture change"

reads just as well the other way, get rid of the internal culture and have a market change.

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By *atisfy janeWoman over a year ago

Torquay

It isn't, and it's time it was done away with.

I don't think it should be scrapped, far from it...but I think when mistakes are made they shouldn't cover them up.

Sadly in my case, I think it was more lots of inconsistant doctors who were not singing from the same hymn sheet, how do you stop that happening?

You can't....in the same way you can't in a private hospital I'm afraid.

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By *atisfy janeWoman over a year ago

Torquay

It isn't, and it's time it was done away with."

You might look at it another way if you or yours were put in a situation where you didn't have adequate private health insurance for a particular medical procedure.....

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By (user no longer on site) over a year ago

It isn't, and it's time it was done away with.

I don't think it should be scrapped, far from it...but I think when mistakes are made they shouldn't cover them up.

Sadly in my case, I think it was more lots of inconsistant doctors who were not singing from the same hymn sheet, how do you stop that happening?

You can't....in the same way you can't in a private hospital I'm afraid."

don't worry, a lot of us are afraid of hospitals. Maybe try some therapy?

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By *atisfy janeWoman over a year ago

Torquay

It isn't, and it's time it was done away with.

I don't think it should be scrapped, far from it...but I think when mistakes are made they shouldn't cover them up.

Sadly in my case, I think it was more lots of inconsistant doctors who were not singing from the same hymn sheet, how do you stop that happening?

You can't....in the same way you can't in a private hospital I'm afraid.

don't worry, a lot of us are afraid of hospitals. Maybe try some therapy?"

Sorry....you lost me with that one

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By *am sampsonMan over a year ago

cwmbran

"But it is efficient, ...have some of the highest survival rates and one of the best life expectancys in the world. Where I'd your evidence otherwise?

My aunt died on the operating table last year when she shouldn't have. She went in for a basic op and should have survived. No case to answer though, they said.

NHS? I wouldn't piss on it if it was on fire.

My uncle, who is not my blood relative, decided not to pursue any negligence claims. We as the wider family have no recourse in the matter without his agreement."

all operations carry a risk even straight forward ones especially if a general anaestetic is required. Another point about the NHS and private medicine is that private providers won't even attempt some of the procedures that carry a higher risk and leave those to the NHS

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By (user no longer on site) over a year ago

It isn't, and it's time it was done away with.

I don't think it should be scrapped, far from it...but I think when mistakes are made they shouldn't cover them up.

Sadly in my case, I think it was more lots of inconsistant doctors who were not singing from the same hymn sheet, how do you stop that happening?

Stop putting in technocrats and faqing accountants to run em and get some hands on managers.

For that you need to get rid of the internal market and have a culture change

reads just as well the other way, get rid of the internal culture and have a market change.

LOL love it! Not quite the same meaning but still awesome

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By (user no longer on site) over a year ago

"But it is efficient, ...have some of the highest survival rates and one of the best life expectancys in the world. Where I'd your evidence otherwise?

My aunt died on the operating table last year when she shouldn't have. She went in for a basic op and should have survived. No case to answer though, they said.

NHS? I wouldn't piss on it if it was on fire.

My uncle, who is not my blood relative, decided not to pursue any negligence claims. We as the wider family have no recourse in the matter without his agreement.

pertinent indeed.

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By *ugby 123Couple over a year ago
Forum Mod

O o O oo

It isn't, and it's time it was done away with.

I don't think it should be scrapped, far from it...but I think when mistakes are made they shouldn't cover them up.

Sadly in my case, I think it was more lots of inconsistant doctors who were not singing from the same hymn sheet, how do you stop that happening?

You can't....in the same way you can't in a private hospital I'm afraid."

Exactly....that could happen anyway where it involves humans...BUT, you just assume they will all have been taught the same things

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By (user no longer on site) over a year ago

It's a system designed to help those who need it and not to pass judgement.

I pay my fair share of NI, seldom use the docs and have no issues with those, even smokers (they've usually contributed enough through smoking taxes to offset their health costs!)

The amount people receive in benefits however.... Thanks labour

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By *atisfy janeWoman over a year ago

Torquay

"It's a system designed to help those who need it and not to pass judgement.

I pay my fair share of NI, seldom use the docs and have no issues with those, even smokers (they've usually contributed enough through smoking taxes to offset their health costs!)

The amount people receive in benefits however.... Thanks labour

How dare those benefit recipients even dream about using the same NHS facilities as you....

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By *am sampsonMan over a year ago

cwmbran

It isn't, and it's time it was done away with."
the NHS today is completely different to how it was at its inception and has been overhauled so many times its getting pretty punchd*unk

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By *rumalexMan over a year ago

Birmingham

interesting thread but for those knocking the nhs remember the fallout from the dodgy breast implants, all the private surguries washing their hands of the problem and wanting the nhs to sort out their mess

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By *am sampsonMan over a year ago

cwmbran

It isn't, and it's time it was done away with.

I don't think it should be scrapped, far from it...but I think when mistakes are made they shouldn't cover them up.

Sadly in my case, I think it was more lots of inconsistant doctors who were not singing from the same hymn sheet, how do you stop that happening?

You can't....in the same way you can't in a private hospital I'm afraid.

Exactly....that could happen anyway where it involves humans...BUT, you just assume they will all have been taught the same things

each medical school has it's own approach to teaching - so long as they meet the GMCs requirements

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By *andyandy888Man over a year ago

newport

well i have been working all my life im now 46 i was relativley fit until i broke my ankle playing football and thanks to the wonderfull nhs i had mrsa after they cocked up my op ,it was 13 yrs ago and it took 5 months to get rid of it ,so if i am overwhieght or anything else the nhs could save money by cleaning the hospitals properly not by charging obese or smokers anyone agree with me ?

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By *rumalexMan over a year ago

Birmingham

"well i have been working all my life im now 46 i was relativley fit until i broke my ankle playing football and thanks to the wonderfull nhs i had mrsa after they cocked up my op ,it was 13 yrs ago and it took 5 months to get rid of it ,so if i am overwhieght or anything else the nhs could save money by cleaning the hospitals properly not by charging obese or smokers anyone agree with me ?"

think this one comes under what happens when you introduce profit making companies into the nhs in this case the cleaning contracts, so is the nhs to blame or the private cleaning company?

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By *ugby 123Couple over a year ago
Forum Mod

O o O oo

It isn't, and it's time it was done away with.

I don't think it should be scrapped, far from it...but I think when mistakes are made they shouldn't cover them up.

Sadly in my case, I think it was more lots of inconsistant doctors who were not singing from the same hymn sheet, how do you stop that happening?

You can't....in the same way you can't in a private hospital I'm afraid.

Exactly....that could happen anyway where it involves humans...BUT, you just assume they will all have been taught the same things

each medical school has it's own approach to teaching - so long as they meet the GMCs requirements"

I would imagine they are taught the basics

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By *am sampsonMan over a year ago

cwmbran

my cousin died of mrsa and as has been said it was trying to save monet that caused the problem in the first place - and mrsa is often taken into the hospital by the patients themselve

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By (user no longer on site) over a year ago

my mum thought she had breast cancer after a mamograph years ago and she was told the wait would be 12wks so she paid and went in private had the opp done and it turned out to be a dried milk duct non cancerous at all came out the following day costing her £1000 and peace of mind and well worth it x

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By *emima_puddlefuckCouple over a year ago

hexham

"It's a system designed to help those who need it and not to pass judgement.

I pay my fair share of NI, seldom use the docs and have no issues with those, even smokers (they've usually contributed enough through smoking taxes to offset their health costs!)

The amount people receive in benefits however.... Thanks labour

NI does not pay for the nhs

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By *am sampsonMan over a year ago

cwmbran

It isn't, and it's time it was done away with.

I don't think it should be scrapped, far from it...but I think when mistakes are made they shouldn't cover them up.

Sadly in my case, I think it was more lots of inconsistant doctors who were not singing from the same hymn sheet, how do you stop that happening?

You can't....in the same way you can't in a private hospital I'm afraid.

Exactly....that could happen anyway where it involves humans...BUT, you just assume they will all have been taught the same things

each medical school has it's own approach to teaching - so long as they meet the GMCs requirements

I would imagine they are taught the basics

"
then you would be right

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By *emima_puddlefuckCouple over a year ago

hexham

think this one comes under what happens when you introduce profit making companies into the nhs in this case the cleaning contracts, so is the nhs to blame or the private cleaning company?"

It used to be called hospital acquired infection, and has always existed...the problem id ppl think they are immortal

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By (user no longer on site) over a year ago

To be honest with you the NHS does refuse people treatment on some occasions

My dad was a alcoholic and died from liver falure, the NHS never offered him a liver transplant and made it quite clear he wasnt being offered due to the nature of his illness, now im not saying they should im just saying they do refuse treatment to certain groups of people

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By *atisfy janeWoman over a year ago

Torquay

Having worked in various London hospitals in the 90's, including those that had instances of MRSA amongst patients.....no I don't agree with you.

A hospital visitor, having washed and alcohol gelled their hands even at multiple points before they reach the ward they are visiting....only needs to generate and discharge the tiniest amount of mucus to potentially infect the whole ward.....or a waiting room....or a hospital shop....or a nurses station.

MRSA infection occurs in private hospitals as often as it does in NHS hospitals, people don't have to be ill to carry MRSA, most people will never know they are themselves carriers when they go into hospital as patients.

Too easy to place the blame solely on hospital cleanliness I'm afraid.

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By *emima_puddlefuckCouple over a year ago

hexham

Since we are being anecdotal...

my eldest was born with a cleft palate,we stayed in hospital a week as he was tested for other abnormalities, including a full dna screening, heart, brain, liver, kidney,and lung scans. The midwives and specialist cleft team nurse were all 100% supportive of my desire to try to breast feed and i used the dedicated breast pumps ...all free

When we left hospital we had daily visits from the special care midwives, as well as specialist support from the cleft team nurse...who became our rock,available at any time.,,all free

For 8 weeks i expressed my milk using an nhs breast pump and bottles supplied by the nhs(cleft babies need special bottles) ...all free

At 8 months he had his first operation, the first of four...all free

Through cleft palate sites we have made american friends, some begging for bottles as their health insurance wont cover it, others unable to get an operation for their child, as the insurance defines it as a pre existing condition, others whose babies have malnutrition because the lack of specialists means doctors have told them not to wean their child in case it chokes..

Of course the fact we treated those trying to help us with reapect may have meant we got treated with respect back

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By *atisfy janeWoman over a year ago

Torquay

"Since we are being anecdotal...

When we left hospital we had daily visits from the special care midwives, as well as specialist support from the cleft team nurse...who became our rock,available at any time.,,all free

For 8 weeks i expressed my milk using an nhs breast pump and bottles supplied by the nhs(cleft babies need special bottles) ...all free

At 8 months he had his first operation, the first of four...all free

Of course the fact we treated those trying to help us with reapect may have meant we got treated with respect back

Great post....

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By (user no longer on site) over a year ago

"Too easy to place the blame solely on hospital cleanliness I'm afraid.

Tell that to the parents of those babies that died recently due to infected water faucets. The poor little buggers never stood a chance at life the moment they entered that filthy ward.

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By *atisfy janeWoman over a year ago

Torquay

"Too easy to place the blame solely on hospital cleanliness I'm afraid.

Tell that to the parents of those babies that died recently due to infected water faucets. The poor little buggers never stood a chance at life the moment they entered that filthy ward."

They found the source of infection to be the inside workings of a sink tap I believe...

Does one tap make a filthy ward?

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By (user no longer on site) over a year ago

I think the reason that people get such different experiences in their dealings with the NHS is that it's such a vast organisation. So it's not surprising.

Having said that I don't think it would help breaking it into little pieces, some of which private businesses might find profitable/attractive and some that they wont.

We are lucky to have it.

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By *am sampsonMan over a year ago

cwmbran

"Too easy to place the blame solely on hospital cleanliness I'm afraid.

Tell that to the parents of those babies that died recently due to infected water faucets. The poor little buggers never stood a chance at life the moment they entered that filthy ward."

so what you seem to be saying the parts of the NHS which are failing is the parts being run by the private sector - so by your logic if it was all privatised their would be complete meltdown in the "NHS"

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By *emima_puddlefuckCouple over a year ago

hexham

"Too easy to place the blame solely on hospital cleanliness I'm afraid.

Tell that to the parents of those babies that died recently due to infected water faucets. The poor little buggers never stood a chance at life the moment they entered that filthy ward."

Sadly bacteria can live anywhere and the insistence of ill informed ppl to have antibiotics ,and their failure to take them properly has made the problem worse.

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By *emima_puddlefuckCouple over a year ago

hexham

"Too easy to place the blame solely on hospital cleanliness I'm afraid.

Tell that to the parents of those babies that died recently due to infected water faucets. The poor little buggers never stood a chance at life the moment they entered that filthy ward.

expecting logic at this point is i think futile...the words as you sow so shall you reap do come to mind though

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By *emmefataleWoman over a year ago

dirtybigbadsgirlville

"Too easy to place the blame solely on hospital cleanliness I'm afraid.

Tell that to the parents of those babies that died recently due to infected water faucets. The poor little buggers never stood a chance at life the moment they entered that filthy ward.

They found the source of infection to be the inside workings of a sink tap I believe...

Does one tap make a filthy ward?"
Dont they have to check the water supply for such things on a regular basis?

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By *emmefataleWoman over a year ago

dirtybigbadsgirlville

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By *andyandy888Man over a year ago

newport

TYPICAL RESPONCE FROM anyone that works in the nhs they were saying that people brought mrsa in with them 13 yrs ago and they are no further forward now and tell me why holland has 5,000 cases of mrsa compared to 50,000 in the uk holland is ten times the size but thet steam clean any bed once anyone has any contagious disease you are all brainwashed by the goverment into beliving what you said ,BRING BACK MATRONS never had so many superbugs in the 60s did we?

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By *ansue35Couple over a year ago

yorkshire

I used the private health system and NHS.

14 years ago, i should first signs of bowl cancer.

The then doctors decided to push me out of the door, by just saying the i was wasting their time.

But to prove i was wasting their time, was going to be given a CT scan.

The latter never arrived and I just went on as bormal.

Hit 30 and 3 days, I started to get pains, bleedingh etc. went to A and E. samething just wasting their time.

I go to work, fall ill.

Go home see GP ask to be refferd to BUPA, two days later she the a Doctor.

tell him my story, sends me for a MRI scan, two hours later, tells me what i have what needs to be done and gives me a complete appointment for chemo, etc and operations dates.

I think the NHS departments work in different ways. If you just have a normal illlness with no signs of heart failure for example.

So the is no one select department then you get a bad deal. If got cancer of the bowl etc, then that side of NHS is does really well.

Horses for courses really.

More detailed illness, the more a doctor has an interested, but if you have no defined illness, then it be a real heart ache to get anything done.

Ian

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By *emima_puddlefuckCouple over a year ago

hexham

"I used the private health system and NHS.

14 years ago, i should first signs of bowl cancer.

The then doctors decided to push me out of the door, by just saying the i was wasting their time.

But to prove i was wasting their time, was going to be given a CT scan.

The latter never arrived and I just went on as bormal.

Hit 30 and 3 days, I started to get pains, bleedingh etc. went to A and E. samething just wasting their time.

I go to work, fall ill.

Go home see GP ask to be refferd to BUPA, two days later she the a Doctor.

tell him my story, sends me for a MRI scan, two hours later, tells me what i have what needs to be done and gives me a complete appointment for chemo, etc and operations dates.

I think the NHS departments work in different ways. If you just have a normal illlness with no signs of heart failure for example.

So the is no one select department then you get a bad deal. If got cancer of the bowl etc, then that side of NHS is does really well.

Horses for courses really.

More detailed illness, the more a doctor has an interested, but if you have no defined illness, then it be a real heart ache to get anything done.

Ian "

14 years ago and you will have met the results of the cut in nursing and doctor places Thatcher put in

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By *emima_puddlefuckCouple over a year ago

hexham

"TYPICAL RESPONCE FROM anyone that works in the nhs they were saying that people brought mrsa in with them 13 yrs ago and they are no further forward now and tell me why holland has 5,000 cases of mrsa compared to 50,000 in the uk holland is ten times the size but thet steam clean any bed once anyone has any contagious disease you are all brainwashed by the goverment into beliving what you said ,BRING BACK MATRONS never had so many superbugs in the 60s did we?"

no because super bugs are caused by anti biotic resistant strains.

If we paid the tax of the dutch then yes we could have the ward numbers they have, but we wont

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By (user no longer on site) over a year ago

"Too easy to place the blame solely on hospital cleanliness I'm afraid.

Tell that to the parents of those babies that died recently due to infected water faucets. The poor little buggers never stood a chance at life the moment they entered that filthy ward.

They found the source of infection to be the inside workings of a sink tap I believe...

Does one tap make a filthy ward?Dont they have to check the water supply for such things on a regular basis?"

One would think that something as vital as a clean water supply would checked more than once daily. When visiting Siren and our daughter in hospital recently I was continually told to wash my hands before touching the baby, yet those poor babies on that ward were killed by the very thing that was supposed to ensure cleanliness. What irks me even more are the people on here who have tried to excuse that disgusting ward by inferring that disease is bound to occur and that the patients themselves introduce MRSA to the ward. How so, when those babies never even got the chance to leave hospital to get themselves infected with it.

The NHS has got serious failings yet some people seem quite happy to write off preventable deaths as 'well, you gotta break a few eggs to make an omelette'.

The NHS needs doing away with and replaced by a healthcare system that enforces cleanliness with an unbending rigidity, and gets rid of imcompetent nurses and doctors no matter how short fucking staffed they are.

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By (user no longer on site) over a year ago

" NI does not pay for the nhs"

Indeed, National Insurance is folded into general taxation. Mind you it was a handy ruse for Gordon Brown to use to increase taxation without raising "tax rates".

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By *emima_puddlefuckCouple over a year ago

hexham

"Too easy to place the blame solely on hospital cleanliness I'm afraid.

Tell that to the parents of those babies that died recently due to infected water faucets. The poor little buggers never stood a chance at life the moment they entered that filthy ward.

They found the source of infection to be the inside workings of a sink tap I believe...

Does one tap make a filthy ward?Dont they have to check the water supply for such things on a regular basis?

The NHS has got serious failings yet some people seem quite happy to write off preventable deaths as 'well, you gotta break a few eggs to make an omelette'.

i am amazed at any hospital that told u to wash your hands rather than use gel...was the baby born in england

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By (user no longer on site) over a year ago

"i am amazed at any hospital that told u to wash your hands rather than use gel...was the baby born in england

QE, Gateshead.

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By *am sampsonMan over a year ago

cwmbran

" NI does not pay for the nhs

Indeed, National Insurance is folded into general taxation. Mind you it was a handy ruse for Gordon Brown to use to increase taxation without raising "tax rates"."

Should have just raised VAT like gorgeous George - that went completely un-noticed not

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By *atisfy janeWoman over a year ago

Torquay

Bring back Matron?

Matrons were gradually introduced back into hospitals from late 2002, they have been known as 'Modern Matrons'...'Ward Managers'....Senior Clinical Nurses'....and 'Senior Sisters' since then, different governments just change their title and duty remit to suit themselves.

Most hospitals in England and Wales have them....in some guise.

So just not known as 'Matron' anymore.

And regarding your MRSA.....could have been the patient in the next bed to you, one of your visitors, or even yourself. I know you won't want to hear that, but them's the facts!

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By *emmefataleWoman over a year ago

dirtybigbadsgirlville

Bring back Matron?

Most hospitals in England and Wales have them....in some guise.

So just not known as 'Matron' anymore.

And regarding your MRSA.....could have been the patient in the next bed to you, one of your visitors, or even yourself. I know you won't want to hear that, but them's the facts!"
They do have some role..usually entitled "modern matron"

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By (user no longer on site) over a year ago

Taken from telegraph.

A smoker pays £4.95 TAX per pack of fags.

£4.95 x 1 pack a day for 365 days a year = £1806.75

If I smoke for 50 year thats £90'337.50 I have paid in tax

So If I burden the goverment with £20'000 health cost if I rot my lungs then they have still made over £70'000 from me that they can use to help fund other public services

Tony

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By *waymanMan over a year ago

newcastle

It isn't, and it's time it was done away with."

What would you replace it with?

The American system? Have you ever tried getting health care in the US without insurance?

You're ignoring by the way that part of the problem with the modern day NHS has been the constant change, the constant reorganizations, the tyranny of Whitehall mandarins tinkering with SHAs and the like....

All of our major European neighbours spend more of their GDP on healthcare than we do.... When are you going to start listening Wishy?

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By *waymanMan over a year ago

newcastle

" NI does not pay for the nhs

Indeed, National Insurance is folded into general taxation. Mind you it was a handy ruse for Gordon Brown to use to increase taxation without raising "tax rates"."

Like every government since 1945...

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By (user no longer on site) over a year ago

"Too easy to place the blame solely on hospital cleanliness I'm afraid.

Tell that to the parents of those babies that died recently due to infected water faucets. The poor little buggers never stood a chance at life the moment they entered that filthy ward.

They found the source of infection to be the inside workings of a sink tap I believe...

Does one tap make a filthy ward?Dont they have to check the water supply for such things on a regular basis?

The NHS has got serious failings yet some people seem quite happy to write off preventable deaths as 'well, you gotta break a few eggs to make an omelette'.

i am amazed at any hospital that told u to wash your hands rather than use gel...was the baby born in england

Jem probably most hospitals in the country would advise on washing your hands with liquid soap and water rather than using alcohol gel.

You tend to find alcohol gels are used when not able to wash effectively with soap and water. District nurses will use them in peoples homes as sometimes the washing facilities in some peoples homes aren't adequate ie, they may only have a cracked bar of soap available and those aren't particularly hygienic or a dirty towel so it could be easier to stick a bit of alcohol gel on.

Or if a nurse is seeing patient after patient ie, taking bloods, she prob wouldn't have time to go away and wash her hands properly each time so gel is available and used at the point of care.

But using a handwashing sink in a clinical room has to be better to wash all that debriss off your hands rather than masking with gel all the time, and you get a sticky residue after a while anyway. A clinical sink is being used regularly, therefore being flushed through regularly so the risk of bacteria in the water system is improbable, I wouldn't imagine many would actively seek out a handbasin in a disused area which hadn't been flushed for ages and wash their hands there.

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By *waymanMan over a year ago

newcastle

"But it is efficient, ...have some of the highest survival rates and one of the best life expectancys in the world. Where I'd your evidence otherwise?

My aunt died on the operating table last year when she shouldn't have. She went in for a basic op and should have survived. No case to answer though, they said.

NHS? I wouldn't piss on it if it was on fire.

Would it make a difference if you did?

You've made your case. You've ducked the important statistics, like how efficient the NHS is, and you've explained, quite bravely, why you are so prejudiced about the NHS. Move on.

Sorry, you're wrong.

You want to throw the baby out with the bathwater. That's an emotional response. I keep trying to get you to address evidence rather than anecdote and you keep having, to use the words of the father of the NHS (in another context) emotional spasms.

That's no basis for a productive debate.

You're right in one thing though - even if you may not know it.

Nye Bevan said, in 1947, that if a bedpan was dropped in a hospital anywhere e in England it should echo in the office of the Secretary of State.

The lack of local and national politica accountability for anything that goes wrong in the NHS remains a flaw, but, to paraphrase Churchill on democracy, the NHS looks like a terrible system until you consider the alternatives, all of which cost more or deliver much worse outcomes.