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By (user no longer on site) OP
over a year ago
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David Lloyd gyms insist trans members ‘have gender certificate’ before they can use their preferred changing room.
The chain asks trans people to produce a Gender Recognition Certificate (GRC) before they are able to use gender-specific facilities.
Are they right to request that ?
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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago
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I think they are probably just trying to avoid any legal issues via potential complaints from other gym users who have a problem with it. They can then says "Oh they have a certificate to be in there."
It seems a bit discriminative but when you're in a place where you might be nude such as locker rooms I can kind of see why they are trying to cover their backs.
Now I'm away for a creme egg  |
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"David Lloyd gyms insist trans members ‘have gender certificate’ before they can use their preferred changing room.
The chain asks trans people to produce a Gender Recognition Certificate (GRC) before they are able to use gender-specific facilities.
Are they right to request that ?
"
So, will they have separate non gender specific facilities for trans people who are just starting to transition and who may not yet have this certificate?
They may feel that they are doing the right thing for some customers who would feel vulnerable having a trans person sharing their changing room but I’ll bet that the trans person feels more vulnerable than anyone else there! |
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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago
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"David Lloyd gyms insist trans members ‘have gender certificate’ before they can use their preferred changing room.
The chain asks trans people to produce a Gender Recognition Certificate (GRC) before they are able to use gender-specific facilities.
Are they right to request that ?
"
They are doing it for a specific reason and in reality and it seems a sensible thing to do. |
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It is in fact illegal to ask to see a GRC. The only function of a GRC is to allow the holder to obtain a corrected birth certificate. The GRC is a private document issued by one government department, to be presented to another department.
The gym would be within their right to ask to see a birth certificate, but only if they apply the policy across the board and require it of every customer.
Note that the granting of a GRC to an individual says absolutely nothing about the configuration of their genitals. It merely recognises that the individual has legally expressed their commitment to live FULL TIME as their gender, has already done so for a period of at least two years, has produced evidence of this (eg. photos, letters from bank in new name, psych report, evidence that work knows, family knows, a complete dossier of stuff) etc.
There is no requirement to have any surgery or other medical intervention before obtaining a GRC. However on of the precursors to obtaining a GRC would be to show that you had changed your name on your gym membership.
So no, David Lloyds is acting illegally in making this request and are opening themselves up to a lawsuit. I will watch with interest for the chain to dismiss the individual manager who made the request, and pay compensation for offense caused. Looks like someone is going to get lifetime free gym membership... |
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"It is in fact illegal to ask to see a GRC. The only function of a GRC is to allow the holder to obtain a corrected birth certificate. The GRC is a private document issued by one government department, to be presented to another department.
The gym would be within their right to ask to see a birth certificate, but only if they apply the policy across the board and require it of every customer.
Note that the granting of a GRC to an individual says absolutely nothing about the configuration of their genitals. It merely recognises that the individual has legally expressed their commitment to live FULL TIME as their gender, has already done so for a period of at least two years, has produced evidence of this (eg. photos, letters from bank in new name, psych report, evidence that work knows, family knows, a complete dossier of stuff) etc.
There is no requirement to have any surgery or other medical intervention before obtaining a GRC. However on of the precursors to obtaining a GRC would be to show that you had changed your name on your gym membership.
So no, David Lloyds is acting illegally in making this request and are opening themselves up to a lawsuit. I will watch with interest for the chain to dismiss the individual manager who made the request, and pay compensation for offense caused. Looks like someone is going to get lifetime free gym membership..."
How do you think Gyms should handle these situations? |
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"It is in fact illegal to ask to see a GRC. The only function of a GRC is to allow the holder to obtain a corrected birth certificate. The GRC is a private document issued by one government department, to be presented to another department.
The gym would be within their right to ask to see a birth certificate, but only if they apply the policy across the board and require it of every customer.
Note that the granting of a GRC to an individual says absolutely nothing about the configuration of their genitals. It merely recognises that the individual has legally expressed their commitment to live FULL TIME as their gender, has already done so for a period of at least two years, has produced evidence of this (eg. photos, letters from bank in new name, psych report, evidence that work knows, family knows, a complete dossier of stuff) etc.
There is no requirement to have any surgery or other medical intervention before obtaining a GRC. However on of the precursors to obtaining a GRC would be to show that you had changed your name on your gym membership.
So no, David Lloyds is acting illegally in making this request and are opening themselves up to a lawsuit. I will watch with interest for the chain to dismiss the individual manager who made the request, and pay compensation for offense caused. Looks like someone is going to get lifetime free gym membership..."
Sorry for my ignorance but why is it illegal for them to ask for it in their own gym?
And how is it offensive when what they are trying to do is to accommodate this particular group.
It might not be the best but at least they are trying? |
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Note that GRC or not, there is no free pass for a trans person, or any other person, to cause distress to others by sexually exposing themselves or trying to observe others in a state of undress in changing areas or toilets. This is an offence regardless of gender and genitalia. In point of fact, every real trans person would be more worried about others looking at them, will use a private changing cubicle, and try very hard not to look at other users of the changing area.
Ladies you are at more danger of being eyed up by a lesbian than you are in danger of any trans person. |
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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago
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So what should they do?
Not being antagonistic, I genuinely don't know what they should do?
If a woman who is still equipped with male genitalia exercises her right to access female changing facilities, does that preclude the right of cis women to change in facilities that excludes cismales that are still equipped with a penis? Who's rights overrides who's? |
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"So what should they do?
Not being antagonistic, I genuinely don't know what they should do?
"
Me too.
Maybe just a 1 or 2 separate changing rooms for common use? Not sure if it's practical or cost-effective. |
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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago
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"David Lloyd gyms insist trans members ‘have gender certificate’ before they can use their preferred changing room.
The chain asks trans people to produce a Gender Recognition Certificate (GRC) before they are able to use gender-specific facilities.
Are they right to request that ?
"
Of course they are. Otherwise you'd get pervs like me (Mr) throwing on a wig and having a great time in the ladies' changing rooms.
But, of course, there's no such thing as pervy men dressing like women just to gain such advantages is there??! (P.S. take a stroll in Manchester's gay village - you'll soon learn to recognise the wheat from the chaff)  |
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I would think they had a man take the piss in a gym and their lawyers told them to insist on this certificate in future.
It very much sounds like something a lawyer would say, and not someone in marketing or a gym manager. |
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"David Lloyd gyms insist trans members ‘have gender certificate’ before they can use their preferred changing room.
The chain asks trans people to produce a Gender Recognition Certificate (GRC) before they are able to use gender-specific facilities.
Are they right to request that ?
Of course they are. Otherwise you'd get pervs like me (Mr) throwing on a wig and having a great time in the ladies' changing rooms.
But, of course, there's no such thing as pervy men dressing like women just to gain such advantages is there??! (P.S. take a stroll in Manchester's gay village - you'll soon learn to recognise the wheat from the chaff) "
If you perv in changing rooms you are committing an offence regardless of your gender and the gender of the people you are perving at. Possession of a GRC or otherwise is nothing to do with it. And it is illegal to ask to see one. |
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"I would think they had a man take the piss in a gym and their lawyers told them to insist on this certificate in future.
It very much sounds like something a lawyer would say, and not someone in marketing or a gym manager."
A lawyer would never advise a company to request sight of a GRC because he would know that it is illegal to do so. Many people have a fundamental misunderstanding of what a GRC is for. It is an absolutely confidential document that is issued by one government department and has the sole purpose for being presented to another department in order to get a new birth certificate.
It is something that many low level local sub-managers and front desk staff have heard of, and think they can ask for when they see a masculine looking woman.
I have heard of multiple cases of this type of thing happening when real trans people take the very first step of transition, advising banks and utilities of a name change. Invariably when the matter is referred to higher management, the operative gets treated to further training and awareness of the law, and the victim of the discrimination ends up being given some form of compensation and asked not to take the complaint further. Usually banks give a few hundred pounds and an assurance that the relevant person will receive retraining. |
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Almost always the main victims of this type of request are masculine looking women. In the US there have been numerous occurances of women being assaulted in public bathrooms and other gendered spaces - having forced "pussy inspection" - sexual assault - by security guards and even members of the public imagining they are some kind of "gender warriors". Conversely there have been zero verified occurences of genuine transgender people committing sexual assaults in these type of spaces. |
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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago
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"David Lloyd gyms insist trans members ‘have gender certificate’ before they can use their preferred changing room.
The chain asks trans people to produce a Gender Recognition Certificate (GRC) before they are able to use gender-specific facilities.
Are they right to request that ?
Of course they are. Otherwise you'd get pervs like me (Mr) throwing on a wig and having a great time in the ladies' changing rooms.
But, of course, there's no such thing as pervy men dressing like women just to gain such advantages is there??! (P.S. take a stroll in Manchester's gay village - you'll soon learn to recognise the wheat from the chaff)
If you perv in changing rooms you are committing an offence regardless of your gender and the gender of the people you are perving at. Possession of a GRC or otherwise is nothing to do with it. And it is illegal to ask to see one."
But if the man claims to be trans and not a perv, then what? The trans card trumps the perv issue, even if they know he really is just taking the piss and not trans at all. He would be tainting the cause of genuine trans people. How can they deal with that? Perhaps by asking for proof of his being trans. |
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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago
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"So what should they do?
Not being antagonistic, I genuinely don't know what they should do?
If a woman who is still equipped with male genitalia exercises her right to access female changing facilities, does that preclude the right of cis women to change in facilities that excludes cismales that are still equipped with a penis? Who's rights overrides who's?"
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