FabSwingers.com > Forums > The Lounge > Why do we still strive for equality?
Why do we still strive for equality?
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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago
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"What is outdated about equality?
It's oudated in the sense of how we use it.
More specifically when regarding to equal treatment."
I don't think it is outdated. However it (like a lot of other things) has had its meaning twisted and perverted in some cases to fit the agenda of others all in the name of equality. |
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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago
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Depends what you mean by equality.
I'd like a more equal society. Don't see why a top level footballer or singer can earn more than a Prime Minister. Don't see why people have to live in absolute poverty, whilst others get Mansions.
Wouldn't say that's an outdated or discriminatory view, maybe an unpopular one? |
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"What is outdated about equality?
It's oudated in the sense of how we use it.
More specifically when regarding to equal treatment."
Sorry, you'll have to explain that to me.
More specifically: how do you think we use it in a way that's outdated and regarding equal treatment?
Maybe I'm tipsy from after work while out of town drinks....but your comments dont make sense to me. |
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By (user no longer on site) OP
over a year ago
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Equality is based on treating everyone equally.
For example a new NHS hospital is built, it has 7 stories and stair access to every floor but no elevator.
Everyone had equal opportunity to use the hospital but not everybody can.
Another example, University fees will be raised to 90,000 a year. Everyone has equal opportunity to go to university but not everybody can |
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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago
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"Equality is based on treating everyone equally.
For example a new NHS hospital is built, it has 7 stories and stair access to every floor but no elevator.
Everyone had equal opportunity to use the hospital but not everybody can.
Another example, University fees will be raised to 90,000 a year. Everyone has equal opportunity to go to university but not everybody can"
That's Socio-Economic equality |
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By (user no longer on site) OP
over a year ago
|
"Equality is based on treating everyone equally.
For example a new NHS hospital is built, it has 7 stories and stair access to every floor but no elevator.
Everyone had equal opportunity to use the hospital but not everybody can.
Another example, University fees will be raised to 90,000 a year. Everyone has equal opportunity to go to university but not everybody can
That's Socio-Economic equality"
You do release socio economic reflects pretty much everything right? |
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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago
|
"Equality is based on treating everyone equally.
For example a new NHS hospital is built, it has 7 stories and stair access to every floor but no elevator.
Everyone had equal opportunity to use the hospital but not everybody can.
Another example, University fees will be raised to 90,000 a year. Everyone has equal opportunity to go to university but not everybody can
That's Socio-Economic equality
You do release socio economic reflects pretty much everything right?"
Yes  I'm very anti-capitalist. |
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By (user no longer on site) OP
over a year ago
|
"Equality is based on treating everyone equally.
For example a new NHS hospital is built, it has 7 stories and stair access to every floor but no elevator.
Everyone had equal opportunity to use the hospital but not everybody can.
Another example, University fees will be raised to 90,000 a year. Everyone has equal opportunity to go to university but not everybody can
That's Socio-Economic equality
You do release socio economic reflects pretty much everything right?
Yes I'm very anti-capitalist. "
That's a very pretty way of saying it... |
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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago
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"Equality is based on treating everyone equally.
For example a new NHS hospital is built, it has 7 stories and stair access to every floor but no elevator.
Everyone had equal opportunity to use the hospital but not everybody can.
Another example, University fees will be raised to 90,000 a year. Everyone has equal opportunity to go to university but not everybody can"
University fees are paid by a loan you only pay back when you earn enough as a % university fees could be 10 trillion and anyone would still have access. |
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By (user no longer on site) OP
over a year ago
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"Can it not be seen as everyone has an equal right to use the hospital building so making it accessible to all is equality? "
No, the latter is equity. |
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By (user no longer on site) OP
over a year ago
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"Equality is based on treating everyone equally.
For example a new NHS hospital is built, it has 7 stories and stair access to every floor but no elevator.
Everyone had equal opportunity to use the hospital but not everybody can.
Another example, University fees will be raised to 90,000 a year. Everyone has equal opportunity to go to university but not everybody can
University fees are paid by a loan you only pay back when you earn enough as a % university fees could be 10 trillion and anyone would still have access."
True, but that's assuming you're eligible for the loan. |
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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago
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"Equality is based on treating everyone equally.
For example a new NHS hospital is built, it has 7 stories and stair access to every floor but no elevator.
Everyone had equal opportunity to use the hospital but not everybody can.
Another example, University fees will be raised to 90,000 a year. Everyone has equal opportunity to go to university but not everybody can
University fees are paid by a loan you only pay back when you earn enough as a % university fees could be 10 trillion and anyone would still have access.
True, but that's assuming you're eligible for the loan."
Everyone is eligible |
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By (user no longer on site) OP
over a year ago
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"Equality is based on treating everyone equally.
For example a new NHS hospital is built, it has 7 stories and stair access to every floor but no elevator.
Everyone had equal opportunity to use the hospital but not everybody can.
Another example, University fees will be raised to 90,000 a year. Everyone has equal opportunity to go to university but not everybody can
University fees are paid by a loan you only pay back when you earn enough as a % university fees could be 10 trillion and anyone would still have access.
True, but that's assuming you're eligible for the loan.
Everyone is eligible "
It's based on family income, so some people get less than the others.
That difference could be a deal breaker for some. |
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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago
|
"Equality is based on treating everyone equally.
For example a new NHS hospital is built, it has 7 stories and stair access to every floor but no elevator.
Everyone had equal opportunity to use the hospital but not everybody can.
Another example, University fees will be raised to 90,000 a year. Everyone has equal opportunity to go to university but not everybody can
University fees are paid by a loan you only pay back when you earn enough as a % university fees could be 10 trillion and anyone would still have access.
True, but that's assuming you're eligible for the loan.
Everyone is eligible
It's based on family income, so some people get less than the others.
That difference could be a deal breaker for some."
No its not.
Thats maintainence, tution fee loans are not means tested you can be the poorest or the richest and get them.
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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago
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"Capitalism is Discriminatory and Outdated. Equality is what we should all be Fighting for. "
Capitalism is the oposite of discriminatory.
The other end if the scale at communism is however responsible for the biggest massacres in history.
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Equality just means treat everyone fairly. Don't see a problem with it personally or that it's outdated.
Never believed the phrase 'life's not fair' should ever have been legitimate because it could be fair if some people allowed it to be. |
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I don't think it's about treating everyone equally, that would imply you do the same for everyone. It's about putting everyone on a level playing field, which might mean different things for different people or groups. Don't think that's outdated at all. |
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By (user no longer on site) OP
over a year ago
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"Equality just means treat everyone fairly. Don't see a problem with it personally or that it's outdated.
Never believed the phrase 'life's not fair' should ever have been legitimate because it could be fair if some people allowed it to be."
No, equity means treating everyone fairly, hence the thread. |
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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago
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"Capitalism is Discriminatory and Outdated. Equality is what we should all be Fighting for.
Discriminatory to whom?
The 99% "
Do you realise that you are in the top 1% that has ever lived on tbe planet? |
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"What is outdated about equality?
It's oudated in the sense of how we use it.
More specifically when regarding to equal treatment.
I don't think it is outdated. However it (like a lot of other things) has had its meaning twisted and perverted in some cases to fit the agenda of others all in the name of equality. "
It’s just a word, a bit like democracy, oh yeah, that’s outdated in the U.K. nowadays too  |
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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago
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"Capitalism is Discriminatory and Outdated. Equality is what we should all be Fighting for.
Discriminatory to whom?
The 99%
Do you realise that you are in the top 1% that has ever lived on tbe planet?"
Yes, but at what cost to the planet? |
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By (user no longer on site) OP
over a year ago
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"I don't think it's about treating everyone equally, that would imply you do the same for everyone. It's about putting everyone on a level playing field, which might mean different things for different people or groups. Don't think that's outdated at all."
It is, look up the definition if you like.
We're are using a wrong term for the thing we really want to achieve.
This creates a problem as the end goal can be then misunderstood and harmful to some groups of people, even though not intentionally. |
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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago
|
"Capitalism is Discriminatory and Outdated. Equality is what we should all be Fighting for.
Discriminatory to whom?
The 99%
Do you realise that you are in the top 1% that has ever lived on tbe planet?
Yes, but at what cost to the planet? "
Stop it then.
Get rid of your phone your electronics and all the other trappings of being rich and spoiled.
But that would be unpleasant for you so you wont |
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By (user no longer on site) OP
over a year ago
|
"Capitalism is Discriminatory and Outdated. Equality is what we should all be Fighting for.
Discriminatory to whom?
The 99%
Do you realise that you are in the top 1% that has ever lived on tbe planet?
Yes, but at what cost to the planet? "
The planet doesn't need to be saved, it will go through a cycle, make itself inhabitable to humans and pollution problem will be solved.
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"I don't think it's about treating everyone equally, that would imply you do the same for everyone. It's about putting everyone on a level playing field, which might mean different things for different people or groups. Don't think that's outdated at all.
It is, look up the definition if you like.
We're are using a wrong term for the thing we really want to achieve.
This creates a problem as the end goal can be then misunderstood and harmful to some groups of people, even though not intentionally."
I just did and it is the state of being equal, which I think is what I said. Not about giving everyone the same but about creating access so you end up in an equal position. |
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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago
|
"Capitalism is Discriminatory and Outdated. Equality is what we should all be Fighting for.
Discriminatory to whom?
The 99%
Do you realise that you are in the top 1% that has ever lived on tbe planet?
Yes, but at what cost to the planet? "
That is hilarious!  what has the planet got to do with what we were talking about? The impact we have on the planet is a different conversation. Love how you tried to change the subject. Priceless! |
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"Equality just means treat everyone fairly. Don't see a problem with it personally or that it's outdated.
Never believed the phrase 'life's not fair' should ever have been legitimate because it could be fair if some people allowed it to be.
No, equity means treating everyone fairly, hence the thread."
Equity probably is a more valid word to use than equality, especially as it brings impartiality into the equation. Then again if you google impartiality the word equality is brought up, lol.
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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago
|
"Capitalism is Discriminatory and Outdated. Equality is what we should all be Fighting for.
Discriminatory to whom?
The 99%
Do you realise that you are in the top 1% that has ever lived on tbe planet?
Yes, but at what cost to the planet?
Stop it then.
Get rid of your phone your electronics and all the other trappings of being rich and spoiled.
But that would be unpleasant for you so you wont"
It's not about me is it? I am not a Society. If it were, I'd go live in a palm tree fortress paradise in Tahiti making sweet love to Sea Turtles FFS! Is tgat your counter argument to me not being a fan of Capitalism. "Don't do it then!" Have you ever tried escaping from it?
I'm not looking for a political scrap. So back off will you? Just attempting to understand OPs question like the rest of you. |
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"People use equality to get what they want but they don't yet have.
Use whatever term but at the end of the day, the loudest shouter get more attention. Survival of the fittest (or loudest)."
Survival of the fittest is a nazi term invented to justify killing off the disabled etc.
Darwin said "It is not the strongest of the species that survives, nor the most intelligent that survives. It is the one that is most adaptable to change." |
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By (user no longer on site) OP
over a year ago
|
"I don't think it's about treating everyone equally, that would imply you do the same for everyone. It's about putting everyone on a level playing field, which might mean different things for different people or groups. Don't think that's outdated at all.
It is, look up the definition if you like.
We're are using a wrong term for the thing we really want to achieve.
This creates a problem as the end goal can be then misunderstood and harmful to some groups of people, even though not intentionally.
I just did and it is the state of being equal, which I think is what I said. Not about giving everyone the same but about creating access so you end up in an equal position. "
You're just saying the same thing again and again.
Equal position is still unfair to some.
If you add position or opportunity after or before the word equal, it doesn't change its meaning. |
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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago
|
"Capitalism is Discriminatory and Outdated. Equality is what we should all be Fighting for.
Discriminatory to whom?
The 99%
Do you realise that you are in the top 1% that has ever lived on tbe planet?
Yes, but at what cost to the planet?
Stop it then.
Get rid of your phone your electronics and all the other trappings of being rich and spoiled.
But that would be unpleasant for you so you wont
It's not about me is it? I am not a Society. If it were, I'd go live in a palm tree fortress paradise in Tahiti making sweet love to Sea Turtles FFS! Is tgat your counter argument to me not being a fan of Capitalism. "Don't do it then!" Have you ever tried escaping from it?
I'm not looking for a political scrap. So back off will you? Just attempting to understand OPs question like the rest of you."
None of what you are saying makes any sense. Time to head for the exit on this for me. |
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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago
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"The term is outdated and discriminatory yet we still attach a positive connotation to it."
Why should guys be the only arseholes, pests, self entitled, posers... When women and couples tvs can be too |
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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago
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"People use equality to get what they want but they don't yet have.
Use whatever term but at the end of the day, the loudest shouter get more attention. Survival of the fittest (or loudest).
Survival of the fittest is a nazi term invented to justify killing off the disabled etc.
Darwin said "It is not the strongest of the species that survives, nor the most intelligent that survives. It is the one that is most adaptable to change.""
 Quite correct. Many have misinterpreted the survival of the fittest's meaning. |
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"People use equality to get what they want but they don't yet have.
Use whatever term but at the end of the day, the loudest shouter get more attention. Survival of the fittest (or loudest).
Survival of the fittest is a nazi term invented to justify killing off the disabled etc.
Darwin said "It is not the strongest of the species that survives, nor the most intelligent that survives. It is the one that is most adaptable to change."
Quite correct. Many have misinterpreted the survival of the fittest's meaning."
Seeing as the term explains evolution i am surprised that the nazi term is the most recognised one. |
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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago
|
"People use equality to get what they want but they don't yet have.
Use whatever term but at the end of the day, the loudest shouter get more attention. Survival of the fittest (or loudest).
Survival of the fittest is a nazi term invented to justify killing off the disabled etc.
Darwin said "It is not the strongest of the species that survives, nor the most intelligent that survives. It is the one that is most adaptable to change."
Quite correct. Many have misinterpreted the survival of the fittest's meaning.
Seeing as the term explains evolution i am surprised that the nazi term is the most recognised one."
It's a better sound-bite I guess. |
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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago
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"Equality is based on treating everyone equally."
Exactly - which contradicts your initial post where you claimed it was discriminatory. Which it just isn't. It is the complete opposite. |
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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago
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Marxists want sameness and call it "equality" and are willing to oppress and obliterate all differences to impose their arbitrary ideas of uniformity and conformity disregarding their will and self determination. One man's utopia is another's dystopia when it comes to forcing outcomes. Equality is not sameness. Equality is when everyone has equal opportunity and the freedom to exercise choice and preference. |
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By (user no longer on site) OP
over a year ago
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"Equality is based on treating everyone equally.
Exactly - which contradicts your initial post where you claimed it was discriminatory. Which it just isn't. It is the complete opposite."
Treating everyone the same is discriminatory against people who are not born equal. |
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By (user no longer on site) OP
over a year ago
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"Marxists want sameness and call it "equality" and are willing to oppress and obliterate all differences to impose their arbitrary ideas of uniformity and conformity disregarding their will and self determination. One man's utopia is another's dystopia when it comes to forcing outcomes. Equality is not sameness. Equality is when everyone has equal opportunity and the freedom to exercise choice and preference. "
Read the entire thread, you're just saying the same thing over and over again. |
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"Equality is based on treating everyone equally.
Exactly - which contradicts your initial post where you claimed it was discriminatory. Which it just isn't. It is the complete opposite.
Treating everyone the same is discriminatory against people who are not born equal."
How so? |
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By (user no longer on site) OP
over a year ago
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"Equality is based on treating everyone equally.
Exactly - which contradicts your initial post where you claimed it was discriminatory. Which it just isn't. It is the complete opposite.
Treating everyone the same is discriminatory against people who are not born equal.
How so?"
Someone who's born 'disabled' is at an disadvantage to someone who's not. |
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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago
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"Equality is based on treating everyone equally.
Exactly - which contradicts your initial post where you claimed it was discriminatory. Which it just isn't. It is the complete opposite.
Treating everyone the same is discriminatory against people who are not born equal.
How so?"
Actually I kind of get where you're coming from.
I saw something once that said something along the lines of " to treat everyone equally means to treat everybody differently, as we all start from a different place"
I think I've quoted that wrong but it was basically saying that to treat everybody fairly you have to treat everybody differently depending on where they are in life. |
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By (user no longer on site) OP
over a year ago
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"Equality is based on treating everyone equally.
Exactly - which contradicts your initial post where you claimed it was discriminatory. Which it just isn't. It is the complete opposite.
Treating everyone the same is discriminatory against people who are not born equal.
How so?
Actually I kind of get where you're coming from.
I saw something once that said something along the lines of " to treat everyone equally means to treat everybody differently, as we all start from a different place"
I think I've quoted that wrong but it was basically saying that to treat everybody fairly you have to treat everybody differently depending on where they are in life. "
Yup, there is even a term for that, equity. |
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"Equality is based on treating everyone equally.
Exactly - which contradicts your initial post where you claimed it was discriminatory. Which it just isn't. It is the complete opposite.
Treating everyone the same is discriminatory against people who are not born equal.
How so?
Someone who's born 'disabled' is at an disadvantage to someone who's not."
Like Stephen Hawking was? |
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By (user no longer on site) OP
over a year ago
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"Egalitarianism is what you need if you wanna be a record breaker.
That's not achievable without genetic manipulation
But it is achievable."
Should we forsake the exploration of our solar system for the sake of exploring a solar system that's millions of light years away? |
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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago
|
"Equality is based on treating everyone equally.
For example a new NHS hospital is built, it has 7 stories and stair access to every floor but no elevator.
Everyone had equal opportunity to use the hospital but not everybody can.
Another example, University fees will be raised to 90,000 a year. Everyone has equal opportunity to go to university but not everybody can
University fees are paid by a loan you only pay back when you earn enough as a % university fees could be 10 trillion and anyone would still have access.
True, but that's assuming you're eligible for the loan.
Everyone is eligible
It's based on family income, so some people get less than the others.
That difference could be a deal breaker for some.
No its not.
Thats maintainence, tution fee loans are not means tested you can be the poorest or the richest and get them.
"
But a lower amount if you are richer and not always maintenance loans in all circumstances. So In a way they are means tested. Sorry as a mature full time uni student I just had to make that point ha ha |
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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago
|
"Egalitarianism is what you need if you wanna be a record breaker.
That's not achievable without genetic manipulation
But it is achievable.
Should we forsake the exploration of our solar system for the sake of exploring a solar system that's millions of light years away?"
With enough money, equipment and expertise, both can be achieved simultaneously. |
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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago
|
"Marxists want sameness and call it "equality" and are willing to oppress and obliterate all differences to impose their arbitrary ideas of uniformity and conformity disregarding their will and self determination. One man's utopia is another's dystopia when it comes to forcing outcomes. Equality is not sameness. Equality is when everyone has equal opportunity and the freedom to exercise choice and preference.
Read the entire thread, you're just saying the same thing over and over again."
You keep saying equal opportunity but all your examples are of situations where less privileged cannot participate and you're using that to disparage the aim of equal opportunity. That is misguided! Equal opportunity means that no one is held back by unjust laws and have the freedom to WORK and achieve what they want. Equality does not mean you give everyone the exact same pay. If you do that then the people working harder are being treated unjustly. Again, that's 'sameness' not equality. You cannot control outcomes. For example when you mention cost of university...ok let's say everyone gets admitted regardless of status or economic circumstances. Will you then give everyone the same grade and qualifications regardless of their abilities and efforts? If you do, that's not equality. That's enforcement of uniformity. We all begin at different levels and in order to balance we may have to treat other differently. The poor may receive different treatment than the wealthy. The handicapped get special parking spaces. The underprivileged get special assistance. This is because treating everyone the same leads to inequality. Wanting everyone to be the same is not equality. Your definition of equality is the problem. |
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By (user no longer on site) OP
over a year ago
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"Ok, more seriously though, disabiliy is a good (maybe obvious) choice when pointing stuff out about equality.
So if someone is disadvantaged should we give them ability to be equal? "
No, we should give them a fair opportunity to make the opportunity as leveled to everyone as possible. You can't make it perfect but you can do your best to make it fair. |
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By (user no longer on site) OP
over a year ago
|
"Egalitarianism is what you need if you wanna be a record breaker.
That's not achievable without genetic manipulation
But it is achievable.
Should we forsake the exploration of our solar system for the sake of exploring a solar system that's millions of light years away?
With enough money, equipment and expertise, both can be achieved simultaneously."
We don't live in a perfect world with unlimited resources, therefore we should strive to make the best use of what we have.
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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago
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"Egalitarianism is what you need if you wanna be a record breaker.
That's not achievable without genetic manipulation
But it is achievable.
Should we forsake the exploration of our solar system for the sake of exploring a solar system that's millions of light years away?
With enough money, equipment and expertise, both can be achieved simultaneously.
We don't live in a perfect world with unlimited resources, therefore we should strive to make the best use of what we have.
"
Enough, not unlimited. Problems are often easier to find than solutions. |
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By (user no longer on site) OP
over a year ago
|
"Marxists want sameness and call it "equality" and are willing to oppress and obliterate all differences to impose their arbitrary ideas of uniformity and conformity disregarding their will and self determination. One man's utopia is another's dystopia when it comes to forcing outcomes. Equality is not sameness. Equality is when everyone has equal opportunity and the freedom to exercise choice and preference.
Read the entire thread, you're just saying the same thing over and over again.
You keep saying equal opportunity but all your examples are of situations where less privileged cannot participate and you're using that to disparage the aim of equal opportunity. That is misguided! Equal opportunity means that no one is held back by unjust laws and have the freedom to WORK and achieve what they want. Equality does not mean you give everyone the exact same pay. If you do that then the people working harder are being treated unjustly. Again, that's 'sameness' not equality. You cannot control outcomes. For example when you mention cost of university...ok let's say everyone gets admitted regardless of status or economic circumstances. Will you then give everyone the same grade and qualifications regardless of their abilities and efforts? If you do, that's not equality. That's enforcement of uniformity. We all begin at different levels and in order to balance we may have to treat other differently. The poor may receive different treatment than the wealthy. The handicapped get special parking spaces. The underprivileged get special assistance. This is because treating everyone the same leads to inequality. Wanting everyone to be the same is not equality. Your definition of equality is the problem. "
My definition of equality is THE DEFINITION of equality.
Equality means equal.
Equity means fair.
Your definition of equality is arbitrary and not the actual definition.
I've given more than enough examples to explain what I mean by equality and equity and if you still fail to understand the difference then sorry but I'm unable to help you. |
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By (user no longer on site) OP
over a year ago
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"Egalitarianism is what you need if you wanna be a record breaker.
That's not achievable without genetic manipulation
But it is achievable.
Should we forsake the exploration of our solar system for the sake of exploring a solar system that's millions of light years away?
With enough money, equipment and expertise, both can be achieved simultaneously.
We don't live in a perfect world with unlimited resources, therefore we should strive to make the best use of what we have.
Enough, not unlimited. Problems are often easier to find than solutions."
If no one has or is willing to contribute those resources, they become useless to the point you're trying to make so I still can't see where you're going with this.
That's because for there to be a solution we first need a problem. |
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"Ok, more seriously though, disabiliy is a good (maybe obvious) choice when pointing stuff out about equality.
So if someone is disadvantaged should we give them ability to be equal?
No, we should give them a fair opportunity to make the opportunity as leveled to everyone as possible. You can't make it perfect but you can do your best to make it fair."
Ok, i'm physically disabled. Pretty confident i am more qualified than you in molecular biology. If we both applied for a job in that field i would get that job and you would not, despite being given the same opportunity to apply.
It's fair that we both got the chance to apply and it's fair that the one best able to contribute to that position got the job.
Now say i didn't have the means to get to the interview, no wheelchair, no money for transport, and you got the job, is that now fair?
I didn't get the equal opportunity to apply for that job. And it's the same for all things in life. The more disadvantaged you are then the less choices you have and the less opportunities.
Which is why we still strive for them, i am genuinely disabled and mostly housebound due to lack of resources, they are available just not to me because of my financial status. I haven't been given the same opportunities that someone able bodied already has. I used to be able bodied and did a lot more with my life than be stuck indoors wishing i had a wheelchair or mobiliy scooter.
So no it's not an outdated concept, finances are the biggest restrictor of opportunity in a capitalist society. |
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We don't have an equal society but we can decide to implement rules that dictate terms for some aspects of our society, such as demands for sexual or other equality, on employment terms etc.
The UK has a monarch, which communicates that there are varied levels or grades of people.
In many respects, the ops proposition is somewhat backwards - inequality has progressively become outdated, with equal marriage and other changes |
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By (user no longer on site) OP
over a year ago
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"Ok, more seriously though, disabiliy is a good (maybe obvious) choice when pointing stuff out about equality.
So if someone is disadvantaged should we give them ability to be equal?
No, we should give them a fair opportunity to make the opportunity as leveled to everyone as possible. You can't make it perfect but you can do your best to make it fair.
Ok, i'm physically disabled. Pretty confident i am more qualified than you in molecular biology. If we both applied for a job in that field i would get that job and you would not, despite being given the same opportunity to apply.
It's fair that we both got the chance to apply and it's fair that the one best able to contribute to that position got the job.
Now say i didn't have the means to get to the interview, no wheelchair, no money for transport, and you got the job, is that now fair?
I didn't get the equal opportunity to apply for that job. And it's the same for all things in life. The more disadvantaged you are then the less choices you have and the less opportunities.
Which is why we still strive for them, i am genuinely disabled and mostly housebound due to lack of resources, they are available just not to me because of my financial status. I haven't been given the same opportunities that someone able bodied already has. I used to be able bodied and did a lot more with my life than be stuck indoors wishing i had a wheelchair or mobiliy scooter.
So no it's not an outdated concept, finances are the biggest restrictor of opportunity in a capitalist society."
I'll now portray your point in the equity term rather than equality term.
We both have the ability and means to go to universtiy to get the degree required for the job, we both have the means to attend the interview. We both had as fair of a chance as the other at getting the job but the only deciding factor at that point was the interview. For the sake of my point as it's about equity the interviewer was blindfolded and had no bias to either of us and chose the best person for the job simply from how we individually interacted with him.
That's equity. |
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Gonna go on about lack of resources again actually...
there are more empty homes than homeless people.
The queen could probably fit a fairamount of homeless people in her many homes.
So if we have the resources why are some not being given access to them? |
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By (user no longer on site) OP
over a year ago
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"Gonna go on about lack of resources again actually...
there are more empty homes than homeless people.
The queen could probably fit a fairamount of homeless people in her many homes.
So if we have the resources why are some not being given access to them?"
I still don't see what you're trying to prove here? How does that go against equity? |
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"Ok, more seriously though, disabiliy is a good (maybe obvious) choice when pointing stuff out about equality.
So if someone is disadvantaged should we give them ability to be equal?
No, we should give them a fair opportunity to make the opportunity as leveled to everyone as possible. You can't make it perfect but you can do your best to make it fair.
Ok, i'm physically disabled. Pretty confident i am more qualified than you in molecular biology. If we both applied for a job in that field i would get that job and you would not, despite being given the same opportunity to apply.
It's fair that we both got the chance to apply and it's fair that the one best able to contribute to that position got the job.
Now say i didn't have the means to get to the interview, no wheelchair, no money for transport, and you got the job, is that now fair?
I didn't get the equal opportunity to apply for that job. And it's the same for all things in life. The more disadvantaged you are then the less choices you have and the less opportunities.
Which is why we still strive for them, i am genuinely disabled and mostly housebound due to lack of resources, they are available just not to me because of my financial status. I haven't been given the same opportunities that someone able bodied already has. I used to be able bodied and did a lot more with my life than be stuck indoors wishing i had a wheelchair or mobiliy scooter.
So no it's not an outdated concept, finances are the biggest restrictor of opportunity in a capitalist society.
I'll now portray your point in the equity term rather than equality term.
We both have the ability and means to go to universtiy to get the degree required for the job, we both have the means to attend the interview. We both had as fair of a chance as the other at getting the job but the only deciding factor at that point was the interview. For the sake of my point as it's about equity the interviewer was blindfolded and had no bias to either of us and chose the best person for the job simply from how we individually interacted with him.
That's equity."
I actually didn't have the finances or mobility to go to university. Actually worked to my advantage because i took courses from Havard, MIT, and the University of Queensland without needing to be mobile (yeah i have no passport to travel either).
My point in the other reply was we both didn't have the same opportunities if my disability stopped me from going to that interview. |
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"Gonna go on about lack of resources again actually...
there are more empty homes than homeless people.
The queen could probably fit a fairamount of homeless people in her many homes.
So if we have the resources why are some not being given access to them?
I still don't see what you're trying to prove here? How does that go against equity? "
The resources are there. Someone is hogging them at the expense of those who need them.
There's no lack of resources in a capitalist soceity, there are restrictions on them because everyone is trying to make capital on them. |
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By (user no longer on site) OP
over a year ago
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"Gonna go on about lack of resources again actually...
there are more empty homes than homeless people.
The queen could probably fit a fairamount of homeless people in her many homes.
So if we have the resources why are some not being given access to them?
I still don't see what you're trying to prove here? How does that go against equity?
The resources are there. Someone is hogging them at the expense of those who need them.
There's no lack of resources in a capitalist soceity, there are restrictions on them because everyone is trying to make capital on them."
You do realize I've been making that point from the very start of the thread?
That is the very reason why I'm arguing that equality is flawed. |
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"Gonna go on about lack of resources again actually...
there are more empty homes than homeless people.
The queen could probably fit a fairamount of homeless people in her many homes.
So if we have the resources why are some not being given access to them?
I still don't see what you're trying to prove here? How does that go against equity?
The resources are there. Someone is hogging them at the expense of those who need them.
There's no lack of resources in a capitalist soceity, there are restrictions on them because everyone is trying to make capital on them.
You do realize I've been making that point from the very start of the thread?
That is the very reason why I'm arguing that equality is flawed."
Might wanna explain that better because your OP made it seem like equality was discriminatory when that's not what i just said.
I basically said that the means to be equal exist but the disadvantaged are often restricted and therefore do not recieve equality. |
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By (user no longer on site) OP
over a year ago
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"
Might wanna explain that better because your OP made it seem like equality was discriminatory when that's not what i just said.
I basically said that the means to be equal exist but the disadvantaged are often restricted and therefore do not recieve equality."
I'm not quite sure what your first paragraph means from the way you phrased it.
Equality is discriminatory is what I'm saying. |
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Ok i concede, reread the topic and you gave 2 vague 'examples'.
The terms equity and equality can be used interchangeably and i think, you don't have to take my advice obviously, that next time you start a discussion you can't be so vague and maybe explain what you mean exactly so that peoplecan argue your points or agree with them without being confused.
Nice chatting to you. |
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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago
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"Marxists want sameness and call it "equality" and are willing to oppress and obliterate all differences to impose their arbitrary ideas of uniformity and conformity disregarding their will and self determination. One man's utopia is another's dystopia when it comes to forcing outcomes. Equality is not sameness. Equality is when everyone has equal opportunity and the freedom to exercise choice and preference.
Read the entire thread, you're just saying the same thing over and over again.
You keep saying equal opportunity but all your examples are of situations where less privileged cannot participate and you're using that to disparage the aim of equal opportunity. That is misguided! Equal opportunity means that no one is held back by unjust laws and have the freedom to WORK and achieve what they want. Equality does not mean you give everyone the exact same pay. If you do that then the people working harder are being treated unjustly. Again, that's 'sameness' not equality. You cannot control outcomes. For example when you mention cost of university...ok let's say everyone gets admitted regardless of status or economic circumstances. Will you then give everyone the same grade and qualifications regardless of their abilities and efforts? If you do, that's not equality. That's enforcement of uniformity. We all begin at different levels and in order to balance we may have to treat other differently. The poor may receive different treatment than the wealthy. The handicapped get special parking spaces. The underprivileged get special assistance. This is because treating everyone the same leads to inequality. Wanting everyone to be the same is not equality. Your definition of equality is the problem.
My definition of equality is THE DEFINITION of equality.
Equality means equal.
Equity means fair.
Your definition of equality is arbitrary and not the actual definition.
I've given more than enough examples to explain what I mean by equality and equity and if you still fail to understand the difference then sorry but I'm unable to help you."
People are giving you very rich, contextual and culturally relevant definitions of equality and you a rejecting the cultural definitions and stripping the term of it's deeper implied meanings so that you can apply an arbitrary definition then play semantics and apply a new word. For what? You should learn the difference between words and terms. Equality is applied to mean that laws should not discriminate and people deserve equal opportunities and it does not mean sameness. The term has cultural usage. What is the point of trying to convince people that they don't mean what they are clearly TELLING YOU they mean when they say equality? Why use 'equity' then? Why not justice or fairness? Again, you cannot just disregard the cultural usages that inconvenience your idea. People will have cultural definitions of equity as well and you'll be right back here trying to fix it with a new word. That's futile! |
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By (user no longer on site) OP
over a year ago
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"Marxists want sameness and call it "equality" and are willing to oppress and obliterate all differences to impose their arbitrary ideas of uniformity and conformity disregarding their will and self determination. One man's utopia is another's dystopia when it comes to forcing outcomes. Equality is not sameness. Equality is when everyone has equal opportunity and the freedom to exercise choice and preference.
Read the entire thread, you're just saying the same thing over and over again.
You keep saying equal opportunity but all your examples are of situations where less privileged cannot participate and you're using that to disparage the aim of equal opportunity. That is misguided! Equal opportunity means that no one is held back by unjust laws and have the freedom to WORK and achieve what they want. Equality does not mean you give everyone the exact same pay. If you do that then the people working harder are being treated unjustly. Again, that's 'sameness' not equality. You cannot control outcomes. For example when you mention cost of university...ok let's say everyone gets admitted regardless of status or economic circumstances. Will you then give everyone the same grade and qualifications regardless of their abilities and efforts? If you do, that's not equality. That's enforcement of uniformity. We all begin at different levels and in order to balance we may have to treat other differently. The poor may receive different treatment than the wealthy. The handicapped get special parking spaces. The underprivileged get special assistance. This is because treating everyone the same leads to inequality. Wanting everyone to be the same is not equality. Your definition of equality is the problem.
My definition of equality is THE DEFINITION of equality.
Equality means equal.
Equity means fair.
Your definition of equality is arbitrary and not the actual definition.
I've given more than enough examples to explain what I mean by equality and equity and if you still fail to understand the difference then sorry but I'm unable to help you.
People are giving you very rich, contextual and culturally relevant definitions of equality and you a rejecting the cultural definitions and stripping the term of it's deeper implied meanings so that you can apply an arbitrary definition then play semantics and apply a new word. For what? You should learn the difference between words and terms. Equality is applied to mean that laws should not discriminate and people deserve equal opportunities and it does not mean sameness. The term has cultural usage. What is the point of trying to convince people that they don't mean what they are clearly TELLING YOU they mean when they say equality? Why use 'equity' then? Why not justice or fairness? Again, you cannot just disregard the cultural usages that inconvenience your idea. People will have cultural definitions of equity as well and you'll be right back here trying to fix it with a new word. That's futile! "
You clearly haven't read the entire thread otherwise you would know that I addressed the 'cultural' definition of equality but regardless you proceed to try and prove your point right by saying something it isn't. |
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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago
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"Equality is based on treating everyone equally.
For example a new NHS hospital is built, it has 7 stories and stair access to every floor but no elevator.
Everyone had equal opportunity to use the hospital but not everybody can.
Another example, University fees will be raised to 90,000 a year. Everyone has equal opportunity to go to university but not everybody can
University fees are paid by a loan you only pay back when you earn enough as a % university fees could be 10 trillion and anyone would still have access.
True, but that's assuming you're eligible for the loan.
Everyone is eligible
It's based on family income, so some people get less than the others.
That difference could be a deal breaker for some.
No its not.
Thats maintainence, tution fee loans are not means tested you can be the poorest or the richest and get them.
But a lower amount if you are richer and not always maintenance loans in all circumstances. So In a way they are means tested. Sorry as a mature full time uni student I just had to make that point ha ha "
Ha ha point well made, but no need to say sorry. Just jump in whenever. It is an open forum. Everyone is eligible. Can always find a way onto a course, but the raised fees are not cool!
I remember when I was at Uni 3K for the year. 9K plus throw in extras was around 10K loan for the whole course. I was fortunate enough to work and pay that back, but people are coming out with 30g's worth of debt now...  |
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"Equality is based on treating everyone equally.
Exactly - which contradicts your initial post where you claimed it was discriminatory. Which it just isn't. It is the complete opposite.
Treating everyone the same is discriminatory against people who are not born equal."
I suspected you and I were thinking the same thing even if linguistics were keeping us apart, and this has confirmed it, that's what I was trying to get at.
I guess my point is that people define equality different, many think it means treating everyone the same but it shouldn't, it should be about giving those who are disadvantaged the chance to overcome hurdles and compete equally. |
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"Depends what you mean by equality.
I'd like a more equal society. Don't see why a top level footballer or singer can earn more than a Prime Minister. Don't see why people have to live in absolute poverty, whilst others get Mansions.
Wouldn't say that's an outdated or discriminatory view, maybe an unpopular one? "
Just goes to show how different we all are.
Earning £300,000 a week for kicking a ball is madness, but I'm not paying it. If the person who signs the cheque think it's fine, what business is it if mine how they spend their money?
If someone lives in a £200m house, I think it's silly, but I don't think it unfair because I live in a £200k one.
For me equality simply means giving people an equal chance to achieve their own personal goal and not hinder them. |
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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago
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Equity is giving everyone the same opportunity and start .Equality is treating everyone the same.
Apologies if this has already been said.
Both are relevant ways to address inequalities or inequities.
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