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Straight people sticking up for the LGBQT community
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"This is a question for the LGBQT community . ( But if you’re one of the group of straight people who continually slate me on my posts , please feel free to vent at me again on this one too ! ) Do you feel happy about the straight people who love to take offense on your behalf , or would you feel happier to fight your own battles ? Are you actually offended by the same things as the straight folk who revel in ‘doing the right thing’ ,by speaking out for you . The reason I ask is a recent thread I posted caused an outcry from half a dozen people who weren’t part of the LGBQT community , having a go at me , and yet on the entire thread , not one person from the LGBQT community had a bad word to say about the thread or me . It’s certainly a strange one for me as we’ve met and enjoyed the company of loads from the LGBQT community over the years . And yet here I am being slated for being anti trans ! " WTF I personally know that you both are no way anti trans and yes it feels good when other people be it straight bi etc ask the questions but what rocks my boat is the trolls on the site that go out of the way to shoot us down as they are wasting there time as LGBQT community is here bigger than ever and it's here to stay  | |||
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"Not read your other posts but a very interesting question as i get very wound up by people making them selves spokespeople for people they feel can't stand up for themselves, even though they can. " You fundamentally misunderstand why people speak up for each other. | |||
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"snowflake generation, people will feel offended about bloody anything these days "What he said!! | |||
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"This is a question for the LGBQT community . ( But if you’re one of the group of straight people who continually slate me on my posts , please feel free to vent at me again on this one too ! ) Do you feel happy about the straight people who love to take offense on your behalf , or would you feel happier to fight your own battles ? Are you actually offended by the same things as the straight folk who revel in ‘doing the right thing’ ,by speaking out for you . The reason I ask is a recent thread I posted caused an outcry from half a dozen people who weren’t part of the LGBQT community , having a go at me , and yet on the entire thread , not one person from the LGBQT community had a bad word to say about the thread or me . It’s certainly a strange one for me as we’ve met and enjoyed the company of loads from the LGBQT community over the years . And yet here I am being slated for being anti trans ! WTF I personally know that you both are no way anti trans and yes it feels good when other people be it straight bi etc ask the questions but what rocks my boat is the trolls on the site that go out of the way to shoot us down as they are wasting there time as LGBQT community is here bigger than ever and it's here to stay "You might want to read the three anti-trans threads that have been started recently then. | |||
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"snowflake generation, people will feel offended about bloody anything these days "Bit harsh but I agree the OP does seem to take offence at things that don;t directly effect him... Wait, it was the OP you were talking about wasnlt it? | |||
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"This is a question for the LGBQT community . ( But if you’re one of the group of straight people who continually slate me on my posts , please feel free to vent at me again on this one too ! ) Do you feel happy about the straight people who love to take offense on your behalf , or would you feel happier to fight your own battles ? Are you actually offended by the same things as the straight folk who revel in ‘doing the right thing’ ,by speaking out for you . The reason I ask is a recent thread I posted caused an outcry from half a dozen people who weren’t part of the LGBQT community , having a go at me , and yet on the entire thread , not one person from the LGBQT community had a bad word to say about the thread or me . It’s certainly a strange one for me as we’ve met and enjoyed the company of loads from the LGBQT community over the years . And yet here I am being slated for being anti trans ! WTF I personally know that you both are no way anti trans and yes it feels good when other people be it straight bi etc ask the questions but what rocks my boat is the trolls on the site that go out of the way to shoot us down as they are wasting there time as LGBQT community is here bigger than ever and it's here to stay
You might want to read the three anti-trans threads that have been started recently then."Which ones were they? | |||
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"snowflake generation, people will feel offended about bloody anything these days
Bit harsh but I agree the OP does seem to take offence at things that don;t directly effect him... Wait, it was the OP you were talking about wasnlt it?"no, just people in general | |||
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"So basically, by your logic as a white man, I shouldn't challenge racism? And as a heterosexual man I shouldn;t challenge homophobia? " And as a human, I shouldn't stand up for animal rights. | |||
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"So basically, by your logic as a white man, I shouldn't challenge racism? And as a heterosexual man I shouldn;t challenge homophobia? " That's exactly how that logic works | |||
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"Not read your other posts but a very interesting question as i get very wound up by people making them selves spokespeople for people they feel can't stand up for themselves, even though they can. You fundamentally misunderstand why people speak up for each other." No I fundamentally don't. People just think they know what should and shouldn't offend better than the actual people involved and can't keep their noses out. Hence the way the whole of Western civilisation constantly meddkes in other countries affairs, as we know best. You fundamentally don't know when to keep your nose out of other people's business, quite clearly. Sticking up for, somebody is when a friend or acquaintance asks for it, not because you know best. | |||
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"At what point exactly did it become the case that people can only speak up about issue that directly relate to them? Do I have to be a card carrying member of a specific part of society to know and recognise when someone is being hypocritical, racist, bigoted or descriminatory? People throw around the terms 'snowflake' or 'taking offence for others' when all they're trying to do is dismiss the arguments against themselves generally. " I've wondered this too. | |||
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"I think it depends on context. As a disabled person, it pisses me off sometimes when able-bodied people speak out for me without knowing the first thing about me and my problems. However, support is always welcome, but when I ask for it and with knowledge of the situation." 1 billion % agree with every sentiment and word of this paragraph. Now watch all the, self appointed do gooders deliberately misquote and misuse what you have said. | |||
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"On one of the OPs thread I asked a simple question of biology. This question was without any malicious intent. Someone immediately proclaimed the question as transphobic. Before realising that comment did not hold water and backtracked. I think people are sometimes outraged first without engaging rational thought. It’s as if they have to be seen that way for some reason. " I didn't backtrack and never said your question was transphobic (because it wasn't). Someone had commented on your question along the lines of "you can't ask that question because it's sexist" - I just corrected the sexist for transphobic to continue the joke. And I do think I actually answered your question too. | |||
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"At what point exactly did it become the case that people can only speak up about issue that directly relate to them? Do I have to be a card carrying member of a specific part of society to know and recognise when someone is being hypocritical, racist, bigoted or descriminatory? People throw around the terms 'snowflake' or 'taking offence for others' when all they're trying to do is dismiss the arguments against themselves generally. " You're 1 of the biggest snowflakes on here though.  | |||
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"At what point exactly did it become the case that people can only speak up about issue that directly relate to them? Do I have to be a card carrying member of a specific part of society to know and recognise when someone is being hypocritical, racist, bigoted or descriminatory? People throw around the terms 'snowflake' or 'taking offence for others' when all they're trying to do is dismiss the arguments against themselves generally. " John Cleese summed it up perfectly. A term used by sociopaths to discredit the notion of empathy | |||
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"No I fundamentally don't. People just think they know what should and shouldn't offend better than the actual people involved and can't keep their noses out. Hence the way the whole of Western civilisation constantly meddkes in other countries affairs, as we know best. You fundamentally don't know when to keep your nose out of other people's business, quite clearly. Sticking up for, somebody is when a friend or acquaintance asks for it, not because you know best. " You denied misunderstanding, only to go on and further cement your misunderstanding. Well done. Your initial claim was that people speak up because they assume others can’t speak up for themselves. This is flat wrong. People speak up because two voices are better than one. Now you’re trying to claim that people who speak up are just sticking their noses in. This makes a few mistakes. The first one is that it’s pretty much an ad hominem fallacy. Attackingvthe person, rather than what they say. The second is it just doesn’t make sense. Speaking up for people doesn’t meet any definition of nosiness. Now, if you’re equating ‘having a basic understanding of the world around you’ to nosiness then you might be getting close, but that’s nothing to criticise. Then you go on to say that I don’t know how to keep my nose out of other people’s business. Point out to me, please, where I have intruded in anyone’s privacy. You’re talking nonsense. Finally, you settle on a bizarre argument that one should only defend friends or acquaintances. Two problems with that: the first is that by standing up for people’s rights, I am standing up for my friends and acquaintances. The second is that if everyone took such an ignorant (in the strictest sense of the word) stance, then people would be trampling over others left, right and centre. It’s a little disheartening (but not surprising) to read such mindless selfishness. | |||
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"I think it depends on context. As a disabled person, it pisses me off sometimes when able-bodied people speak out for me without knowing the first thing about me and my problems. However, support is always welcome, but when I ask for it and with knowledge of the situation. 1 billion % agree with every sentiment and word of this paragraph. Now watch all the, self appointed do gooders deliberately misquote and misuse what you have said. " Hang on. Are you saying 'speak out for me' or speak out for disabled people? Because there's a huge difference. Unless you are suffering from a unique condition that nobody else has ever experienced then there will be others who have both knowledge and experience of the subject. Cancer specialists may not have ever had the condition themselves but are you saying they cannot speak on the subject? I have a Good enough knowledge of dementia and the effects on both those living with it and their families. Are you seriously saying I am not able to speak out on the subject, offer advice and opinion and challenge misinformation and factually incorrect statements? Or would I be pissing off those with the condition because I don't personally have it? A | |||
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"At what point exactly did it become the case that people can only speak up about issue that directly relate to them? Do I have to be a card carrying member of a specific part of society to know and recognise when someone is being hypocritical, racist, bigoted or descriminatory? People throw around the terms 'snowflake' or 'taking offence for others' when all they're trying to do is dismiss the arguments against themselves generally. You're 1 of the biggest snowflakes on here though. "And you've just proved my point entirely. At no point whatsoever have you ever proved me wrong nor discredited any of my points, you simply bandy insults and pass it off as 'humour' | |||
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"Not read your other posts but a very interesting question as i get very wound up by people making them selves spokespeople for people they feel can't stand up for themselves, even though they can. " I can stand up for myself . if people don't like me that's their problem . I just get on with my life | |||
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"At what point exactly did it become the case that people can only speak up about issue that directly relate to them? Do I have to be a card carrying member of a specific part of society to know and recognise when someone is being hypocritical, racist, bigoted or descriminatory? People throw around the terms 'snowflake' or 'taking offence for others' when all they're trying to do is dismiss the arguments against themselves generally. You're 1 of the biggest snowflakes on here though.
And you've just proved my point entirely. At no point whatsoever have you ever proved me wrong nor discredited any of my points, you simply bandy insults and pass it off as 'humour'"To be able to think you have to risk being offensive. | |||
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"I think it depends on context. As a disabled person, it pisses me off sometimes when able-bodied people speak out for me without knowing the first thing about me and my problems. However, support is always welcome, but when I ask for it and with knowledge of the situation. 1 billion % agree with every sentiment and word of this paragraph. Now watch all the, self appointed do gooders deliberately misquote and misuse what you have said. Hang on. Are you saying 'speak out for me' or speak out for disabled people? Because there's a huge difference. Unless you are suffering from a unique condition that nobody else has ever experienced then there will be others who have both knowledge and experience of the subject. Cancer specialists may not have ever had the condition themselves but are you saying they cannot speak on the subject? I have a Good enough knowledge of dementia and the effects on both those living with it and their families. Are you seriously saying I am not able to speak out on the subject, offer advice and opinion and challenge misinformation and factually incorrect statements? Or would I be pissing off those with the condition because I don't personally have it? A" Dementia is a very different disability to mine, I would imagine that many people affected are not able to speak out for themselves to varying degrees. In my own case, I'm perfectly capable of speaking for myself as are most physically disabled people. Mental disabilities are a separate issue in this regard. | |||
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"I think it depends on context. As a disabled person, it pisses me off sometimes when able-bodied people speak out for me without knowing the first thing about me and my problems. However, support is always welcome, but when I ask for it and with knowledge of the situation. 1 billion % agree with every sentiment and word of this paragraph. Now watch all the, self appointed do gooders deliberately misquote and misuse what you have said. Hang on. Are you saying 'speak out for me' or speak out for disabled people? Because there's a huge difference. Unless you are suffering from a unique condition that nobody else has ever experienced then there will be others who have both knowledge and experience of the subject. Cancer specialists may not have ever had the condition themselves but are you saying they cannot speak on the subject? I have a Good enough knowledge of dementia and the effects on both those living with it and their families. Are you seriously saying I am not able to speak out on the subject, offer advice and opinion and challenge misinformation and factually incorrect statements? Or would I be pissing off those with the condition because I don't personally have it? A Dementia is a very different disability to mine, I would imagine that many people affected are not able to speak out for themselves to varying degrees. In my own case, I'm perfectly capable of speaking for myself as are most physically disabled people. Mental disabilities are a separate issue in this regard. " I disagree. As I said - unless your disability is unique there will be both others with the same condition and experts in the particular area. Whether physical or mental disability, medical condition or whatever 'group' is being discussed it is perfectly possible for those outside that group to be able to positively support and speak out on behalf of those within it. It's not interference. It's not patronising. It's not out of some desire to be part of that group. Since when was positive support a bad thing? A | |||
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"This is a question for the LGBQT community . ( But if you’re one of the group of straight people who continually slate me on my posts , please feel free to vent at me again on this one too ! ) Do you feel happy about the straight people who love to take offense on your behalf , or would you feel happier to fight your own battles ? Are you actually offended by the same things as the straight folk who revel in ‘doing the right thing’ ,by speaking out for you . The reason I ask is a recent thread I posted caused an outcry from half a dozen people who weren’t part of the LGBQT community , having a go at me , and yet on the entire thread , not one person from the LGBQT community had a bad word to say about the thread or me . It’s certainly a strange one for me as we’ve met and enjoyed the company of loads from the LGBQT community over the years . And yet here I am being slated for being anti trans ! WTF I personally know that you both are no way anti trans and yes it feels good when other people be it straight bi etc ask the questions but what rocks my boat is the trolls on the site that go out of the way to shoot us down as they are wasting there time as LGBQT community is here bigger than ever and it's here to stay
You might want to read the three anti-trans threads that have been started recently then."Try as you will , the truth is that there are plenty if people from the LGBQT community who actually know us , and will happily vouch for us . Sorry to burst your bubble . | |||
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"snowflake generation, people will feel offended about bloody anything these days
Bit harsh but I agree the OP does seem to take offence at things that don;t directly effect him... Wait, it was the OP you were talking about wasnlt it?"Was that an attempt at humor ? Good one   | |||
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"I think it depends on context. As a disabled person, it pisses me off sometimes when able-bodied people speak out for me without knowing the first thing about me and my problems. However, support is always welcome, but when I ask for it and with knowledge of the situation. 1 billion % agree with every sentiment and word of this paragraph. Now watch all the, self appointed do gooders deliberately misquote and misuse what you have said. Hang on. Are you saying 'speak out for me' or speak out for disabled people? Because there's a huge difference. Unless you are suffering from a unique condition that nobody else has ever experienced then there will be others who have both knowledge and experience of the subject. Cancer specialists may not have ever had the condition themselves but are you saying they cannot speak on the subject? I have a Good enough knowledge of dementia and the effects on both those living with it and their families. Are you seriously saying I am not able to speak out on the subject, offer advice and opinion and challenge misinformation and factually incorrect statements? Or would I be pissing off those with the condition because I don't personally have it? A Dementia is a very different disability to mine, I would imagine that many people affected are not able to speak out for themselves to varying degrees. In my own case, I'm perfectly capable of speaking for myself as are most physically disabled people. Mental disabilities are a separate issue in this regard. " There are no physically disabled people working in my office. When it was refit a few years ago I was one of a few people who argued that the office should be more accessible and now anyone using a whelchair could comfortably work here. That in no way benefited me. Was I interfering in raising this? Oh and similarly there are now hearing aid loops in some of the public parts of the building. I'm not deaf, should I not have asked for these? I don;t understand the notion that you donlt want support just becuase you can speak up for yourself? | |||
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"Try as you will , the truth is that there are plenty if people from the LGBQT community who actually know us , and will happily vouch for us . Sorry to burst your bubble ." “Some of my best friends are black.” | |||
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"This is a question for the LGBQT community . ( But if you’re one of the group of straight people who continually slate me on my posts , please feel free to vent at me again on this one too ! ) Do you feel happy about the straight people who love to take offense on your behalf , or would you feel happier to fight your own battles ? Are you actually offended by the same things as the straight folk who revel in ‘doing the right thing’ ,by speaking out for you . The reason I ask is a recent thread I posted caused an outcry from half a dozen people who weren’t part of the LGBQT community , having a go at me , and yet on the entire thread , not one person from the LGBQT community had a bad word to say about the thread or me . It’s certainly a strange one for me as we’ve met and enjoyed the company of loads from the LGBQT community over the years . And yet here I am being slated for being anti trans ! WTF I personally know that you both are no way anti trans and yes it feels good when other people be it straight bi etc ask the questions but what rocks my boat is the trolls on the site that go out of the way to shoot us down as they are wasting there time as LGBQT community is here bigger than ever and it's here to stay
You might want to read the three anti-trans threads that have been started recently then.
Try as you will , the truth is that there are plenty if people from the LGBQT community who actually know us , and will happily vouch for us . Sorry to burst your bubble ."Then maybe you shouldn't post blatant anti-trans stuff then? Or maybe ask them the way you asked everyone on the forum? No bubble burst. Couldn't really care either way. | |||
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"At what point exactly did it become the case that people can only speak up about issue that directly relate to them? Do I have to be a card carrying member of a specific part of society to know and recognise when someone is being hypocritical, racist, bigoted or descriminatory? People throw around the terms 'snowflake' or 'taking offence for others' when all they're trying to do is dismiss the arguments against themselves generally. You're 1 of the biggest snowflakes on here though.
And you've just proved my point entirely. At no point whatsoever have you ever proved me wrong nor discredited any of my points, you simply bandy insults and pass it off as 'humour'
To be able to think you have to risk being offensive."That's another of your stock lines, you don't think creatively nor do you say anything that you don't regurgitate. Being offensive isnt interesting nor is it thinking | |||
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"I think it's dangerous OP. I think if they carry on like this, give it 20 years or so and they'll be campaigning for the rights of paedophiles. Though I'm sure they'll go for a "lowering the age of consent" slant.. "You can't even write racial slurs in shit on someone's car anymore, it's political correctness gone mad! | |||
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"I think it's dangerous OP. I think if they carry on like this, give it 20 years or so and they'll be campaigning for the rights of paedophiles. Though I'm sure they'll go for a "lowering the age of consent" slant.. "I;m not seeing how you are linking the trans community with paedophiles? How and why do you think that people would make the leap you suggest? | |||
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"I think it depends on context. As a disabled person, it pisses me off sometimes when able-bodied people speak out for me without knowing the first thing about me and my problems. However, support is always welcome, but when I ask for it and with knowledge of the situation. 1 billion % agree with every sentiment and word of this paragraph. Now watch all the, self appointed do gooders deliberately misquote and misuse what you have said. Hang on. Are you saying 'speak out for me' or speak out for disabled people? Because there's a huge difference. Unless you are suffering from a unique condition that nobody else has ever experienced then there will be others who have both knowledge and experience of the subject. Cancer specialists may not have ever had the condition themselves but are you saying they cannot speak on the subject? I have a Good enough knowledge of dementia and the effects on both those living with it and their families. Are you seriously saying I am not able to speak out on the subject, offer advice and opinion and challenge misinformation and factually incorrect statements? Or would I be pissing off those with the condition because I don't personally have it? A Dementia is a very different disability to mine, I would imagine that many people affected are not able to speak out for themselves to varying degrees. In my own case, I'm perfectly capable of speaking for myself as are most physically disabled people. Mental disabilities are a separate issue in this regard. " Just coming back to your post, you say you can speak up, but can you be heard? As in can you be heard enough to manifest change? | |||
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"I think it depends on context. As a disabled person, it pisses me off sometimes when able-bodied people speak out for me without knowing the first thing about me and my problems. However, support is always welcome, but when I ask for it and with knowledge of the situation. 1 billion % agree with every sentiment and word of this paragraph. Now watch all the, self appointed do gooders deliberately misquote and misuse what you have said. Hang on. Are you saying 'speak out for me' or speak out for disabled people? Because there's a huge difference. Unless you are suffering from a unique condition that nobody else has ever experienced then there will be others who have both knowledge and experience of the subject. Cancer specialists may not have ever had the condition themselves but are you saying they cannot speak on the subject? I have a Good enough knowledge of dementia and the effects on both those living with it and their families. Are you seriously saying I am not able to speak out on the subject, offer advice and opinion and challenge misinformation and factually incorrect statements? Or would I be pissing off those with the condition because I don't personally have it? A Dementia is a very different disability to mine, I would imagine that many people affected are not able to speak out for themselves to varying degrees. In my own case, I'm perfectly capable of speaking for myself as are most physically disabled people. Mental disabilities are a separate issue in this regard. There are no physically disabled people working in my office. When it was refit a few years ago I was one of a few people who argued that the office should be more accessible and now anyone using a whelchair could comfortably work here. That in no way benefited me. Was I interfering in raising this? Oh and similarly there are now hearing aid loops in some of the public parts of the building. I'm not deaf, should I not have asked for these? I don;t understand the notion that you donlt want support just becuase you can speak up for yourself? " I'm sure the physically disabled people who don't work in your office are very grateful that they potentially could - perhaps you should go and tell some that they would be better off working there? Not everybody needs their hand being held throughout their life. | |||
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"So basically, by your logic as a white man, I shouldn't challenge racism? And as a heterosexual man I shouldn;t challenge homophobia? " Did you read my op ? Where did I say people who aren’t part of the LGBQT community shouldn’t comment ? I didn’t . I asked how the community felt about how the straight community speaking for them on my posts . Which seemed completely fair given that no one from the LGBQT community has a problem with me or my posts . Or at least if they do they haven’t said so , but maybe that’s because they can see the truth behind it all and have much better things to do than look to be outraged by me . | |||
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"I think it depends on context. As a disabled person, it pisses me off sometimes when able-bodied people speak out for me without knowing the first thing about me and my problems. However, support is always welcome, but when I ask for it and with knowledge of the situation. 1 billion % agree with every sentiment and word of this paragraph. Now watch all the, self appointed do gooders deliberately misquote and misuse what you have said. Hang on. Are you saying 'speak out for me' or speak out for disabled people? Because there's a huge difference. Unless you are suffering from a unique condition that nobody else has ever experienced then there will be others who have both knowledge and experience of the subject. Cancer specialists may not have ever had the condition themselves but are you saying they cannot speak on the subject? I have a Good enough knowledge of dementia and the effects on both those living with it and their families. Are you seriously saying I am not able to speak out on the subject, offer advice and opinion and challenge misinformation and factually incorrect statements? Or would I be pissing off those with the condition because I don't personally have it? A Dementia is a very different disability to mine, I would imagine that many people affected are not able to speak out for themselves to varying degrees. In my own case, I'm perfectly capable of speaking for myself as are most physically disabled people. Mental disabilities are a separate issue in this regard. Just coming back to your post, you say you can speak up, but can you be heard? As in can you be heard enough to manifest change? " My voice is a loud as anyone else's. | |||
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"Try as you will , the truth is that there are plenty if people from the LGBQT community who actually know us , and will happily vouch for us . Sorry to burst your bubble . “Some of my best friends are black.”" How is that relevant ? Or is that another attempt to discredit me ? | |||
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"I think it depends on context. As a disabled person, it pisses me off sometimes when able-bodied people speak out for me without knowing the first thing about me and my problems. However, support is always welcome, but when I ask for it and with knowledge of the situation. 1 billion % agree with every sentiment and word of this paragraph. Now watch all the, self appointed do gooders deliberately misquote and misuse what you have said. Hang on. Are you saying 'speak out for me' or speak out for disabled people? Because there's a huge difference. Unless you are suffering from a unique condition that nobody else has ever experienced then there will be others who have both knowledge and experience of the subject. Cancer specialists may not have ever had the condition themselves but are you saying they cannot speak on the subject? I have a Good enough knowledge of dementia and the effects on both those living with it and their families. Are you seriously saying I am not able to speak out on the subject, offer advice and opinion and challenge misinformation and factually incorrect statements? Or would I be pissing off those with the condition because I don't personally have it? A Dementia is a very different disability to mine, I would imagine that many people affected are not able to speak out for themselves to varying degrees. In my own case, I'm perfectly capable of speaking for myself as are most physically disabled people. Mental disabilities are a separate issue in this regard. Just coming back to your post, you say you can speak up, but can you be heard? As in can you be heard enough to manifest change? My voice is a loud as anyone else's." No, it really isn't | |||
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"I think it depends on context. As a disabled person, it pisses me off sometimes when able-bodied people speak out for me without knowing the first thing about me and my problems. However, support is always welcome, but when I ask for it and with knowledge of the situation. 1 billion % agree with every sentiment and word of this paragraph. Now watch all the, self appointed do gooders deliberately misquote and misuse what you have said. Hang on. Are you saying 'speak out for me' or speak out for disabled people? Because there's a huge difference. Unless you are suffering from a unique condition that nobody else has ever experienced then there will be others who have both knowledge and experience of the subject. Cancer specialists may not have ever had the condition themselves but are you saying they cannot speak on the subject? I have a Good enough knowledge of dementia and the effects on both those living with it and their families. Are you seriously saying I am not able to speak out on the subject, offer advice and opinion and challenge misinformation and factually incorrect statements? Or would I be pissing off those with the condition because I don't personally have it? A Dementia is a very different disability to mine, I would imagine that many people affected are not able to speak out for themselves to varying degrees. In my own case, I'm perfectly capable of speaking for myself as are most physically disabled people. Mental disabilities are a separate issue in this regard. Just coming back to your post, you say you can speak up, but can you be heard? As in can you be heard enough to manifest change? My voice is a loud as anyone else's." So because you are able and confident enough to speak for yourself that excludes anyone else speaking on behalf of others? Do you honestly not see the benefit of people offering support to others? Do you think everyone should have to shout as an individual and fight personal battles rather than stand together and help eachother? Because that's a pretty selfish and isolationist viewpoint. Sorry OP for going off track from the original trans subject....but the concept is the same. A | |||
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"So basically, by your logic as a white man, I shouldn't challenge racism? And as a heterosexual man I shouldn;t challenge homophobia? Did you read my op ? Where did I say people who aren’t part of the LGBQT community shouldn’t comment ? I didn’t . I asked how the community felt about how the straight community speaking for them on my posts . Which seemed completely fair given that no one from the LGBQT community has a problem with me or my posts . Or at least if they do they haven’t said so , but maybe that’s because they can see the truth behind it all and have much better things to do than look to be outraged by me ." I read your post, and it boils down to you thinking people shouldn;t get offended on other people's behalf. I;ll draw your attention to this part in particular "Are you actually offended by the same things as the straight folk who revel in ‘doing the right thing’ ,by speaking out for you". Th insinuation is clear. | |||
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"So basically, by your logic as a white man, I shouldn't challenge racism? And as a heterosexual man I shouldn;t challenge homophobia? Did you read my op ? Where did I say people who aren’t part of the LGBQT community shouldn’t comment ? I didn’t . I asked how the community felt about how the straight community speaking for them on my posts . Which seemed completely fair given that no one from the LGBQT community has a problem with me or my posts . Or at least if they do they haven’t said so , but maybe that’s because they can see the truth behind it all and have much better things to do than look to be outraged by me ." I can think of at least one person from the LGBQT community who had an issue with your posts! | |||
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"So basically, by your logic as a white man, I shouldn't challenge racism? And as a heterosexual man I shouldn;t challenge homophobia? Did you read my op ? Where did I say people who aren’t part of the LGBQT community shouldn’t comment ? I didn’t . I asked how the community felt about how the straight community speaking for them on my posts . Which seemed completely fair given that no one from the LGBQT community has a problem with me or my posts . Or at least if they do they haven’t said so , but maybe that’s because they can see the truth behind it all and have much better things to do than look to be outraged by me . I can think of at least one person from the LGBQT community who had an issue with your posts!" And I;ld guess that there are others that simply don;t look at the thread based on the header alone. | |||
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"I think it depends on context. As a disabled person, it pisses me off sometimes when able-bodied people speak out for me without knowing the first thing about me and my problems. However, support is always welcome, but when I ask for it and with knowledge of the situation. 1 billion % agree with every sentiment and word of this paragraph. Now watch all the, self appointed do gooders deliberately misquote and misuse what you have said. Hang on. Are you saying 'speak out for me' or speak out for disabled people? Because there's a huge difference. Unless you are suffering from a unique condition that nobody else has ever experienced then there will be others who have both knowledge and experience of the subject. Cancer specialists may not have ever had the condition themselves but are you saying they cannot speak on the subject? I have a Good enough knowledge of dementia and the effects on both those living with it and their families. Are you seriously saying I am not able to speak out on the subject, offer advice and opinion and challenge misinformation and factually incorrect statements? Or would I be pissing off those with the condition because I don't personally have it? A Dementia is a very different disability to mine, I would imagine that many people affected are not able to speak out for themselves to varying degrees. In my own case, I'm perfectly capable of speaking for myself as are most physically disabled people. Mental disabilities are a separate issue in this regard. Just coming back to your post, you say you can speak up, but can you be heard? As in can you be heard enough to manifest change? My voice is a loud as anyone else's. So because you are able and confident enough to speak for yourself that excludes anyone else speaking on behalf of others? Do you honestly not see the benefit of people offering support to others? Do you think everyone should have to shout as an individual and fight personal battles rather than stand together and help eachother? Because that's a pretty selfish and isolationist viewpoint. Sorry OP for going off track from the original trans subject....but the concept is the same. A" It’s cool , and I do see your point , but those who actually know us will happily vouch for our willingness to embrace everyone in the scene . Whatever sexual leaning , colour , disablitity etc... we are and have always been 100% equal opportunities swingers | |||
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"So basically, by your logic as a white man, I shouldn't challenge racism? And as a heterosexual man I shouldn;t challenge homophobia? Did you read my op ? Where did I say people who aren’t part of the LGBQT community shouldn’t comment ? I didn’t . I asked how the community felt about how the straight community speaking for them on my posts . Which seemed completely fair given that no one from the LGBQT community has a problem with me or my posts . Or at least if they do they haven’t said so , but maybe that’s because they can see the truth behind it all and have much better things to do than look to be outraged by me . I read your post, and it boils down to you thinking people shouldn;t get offended on other people's behalf. I;ll draw your attention to this part in particular "Are you actually offended by the same things as the straight folk who revel in ‘doing the right thing’ ,by speaking out for you". Th insinuation is clear. " The insinuation of what ? I was asking them if they were offended , and whether they liked the fact that others were speaking on their behalf . | |||
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"So basically, by your logic as a white man, I shouldn't challenge racism? And as a heterosexual man I shouldn;t challenge homophobia? Did you read my op ? Where did I say people who aren’t part of the LGBQT community shouldn’t comment ? I didn’t . I asked how the community felt about how the straight community speaking for them on my posts . Which seemed completely fair given that no one from the LGBQT community has a problem with me or my posts . Or at least if they do they haven’t said so , but maybe that’s because they can see the truth behind it all and have much better things to do than look to be outraged by me . I can think of at least one person from the LGBQT community who had an issue with your posts! And I;ld guess that there are others that simply don;t look at the thread based on the header alone. " OK, I'm bi. I'd love it if straight people stood up for LGBQT rights and issues, it's got nothing to do with anything other than empathy for another human being. | |||
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"Try as you will , the truth is that there are plenty if people from the LGBQT community who actually know us , and will happily vouch for us . Sorry to burst your bubble . “Some of my best friends are black.” How is that relevant ? Or is that another attempt to discredit me ?" It’s relevant because it’s highlighting that your argument - that you can’t possibly anti- something because you’ve got friends in that group - is widely understood to be such a cliché and have so little merit, that it’s a standing joke. I’m sure your trans friends will be delighted to hear that you question whether they should enjoy the same things other people do based on nothing more than the fact they are trans. | |||
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"So basically, by your logic as a white man, I shouldn't challenge racism? And as a heterosexual man I shouldn;t challenge homophobia? Did you read my op ? Where did I say people who aren’t part of the LGBQT community shouldn’t comment ? I didn’t . I asked how the community felt about how the straight community speaking for them on my posts . Which seemed completely fair given that no one from the LGBQT community has a problem with me or my posts . Or at least if they do they haven’t said so , but maybe that’s because they can see the truth behind it all and have much better things to do than look to be outraged by me . I can think of at least one person from the LGBQT community who had an issue with your posts!" And I can think of at least one who didn’t , who posted on this thread . I thought you weren’t bothered one way or the other .... | |||
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"I think it depends on context. As a disabled person, it pisses me off sometimes when able-bodied people speak out for me without knowing the first thing about me and my problems. However, support is always welcome, but when I ask for it and with knowledge of the situation. 1 billion % agree with every sentiment and word of this paragraph. Now watch all the, self appointed do gooders deliberately misquote and misuse what you have said. Hang on. Are you saying 'speak out for me' or speak out for disabled people? Because there's a huge difference. Unless you are suffering from a unique condition that nobody else has ever experienced then there will be others who have both knowledge and experience of the subject. Cancer specialists may not have ever had the condition themselves but are you saying they cannot speak on the subject? I have a Good enough knowledge of dementia and the effects on both those living with it and their families. Are you seriously saying I am not able to speak out on the subject, offer advice and opinion and challenge misinformation and factually incorrect statements? Or would I be pissing off those with the condition because I don't personally have it? A Dementia is a very different disability to mine, I would imagine that many people affected are not able to speak out for themselves to varying degrees. In my own case, I'm perfectly capable of speaking for myself as are most physically disabled people. Mental disabilities are a separate issue in this regard. Just coming back to your post, you say you can speak up, but can you be heard? As in can you be heard enough to manifest change? My voice is a loud as anyone else's. So because you are able and confident enough to speak for yourself that excludes anyone else speaking on behalf of others? Do you honestly not see the benefit of people offering support to others? Do you think everyone should have to shout as an individual and fight personal battles rather than stand together and help eachother? Because that's a pretty selfish and isolationist viewpoint. Sorry OP for going off track from the original trans subject....but the concept is the same. A It’s cool , and I do see your point , but those who actually know us will happily vouch for our willingness to embrace everyone in the scene . Whatever sexual leaning , colour , disablitity etc... we are and have always been 100% equal opportunities swingers "I've met you both. Can't say I've ever seen you as anything but inclusive. Whether it's a 'lost in translation' thing going on I haven't a clue. It happens in the forums. Over the years I've met plenty of people in clubs who if you went by their comments on here would be expected to kill eachother when face to face in a club - but when sat chatting it's been a different dynamic entirely. And on that note I'll leave you all to it. A | |||
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"Try as you will , the truth is that there are plenty if people from the LGBQT community who actually know us , and will happily vouch for us . Sorry to burst your bubble . “Some of my best friends are black.” How is that relevant ? Or is that another attempt to discredit me ? It’s relevant because it’s highlighting that your argument - that you can’t possibly anti- something because you’ve got friends in that group - is widely understood to be such a cliché and have so little merit, that it’s a standing joke. I’m sure your trans friends will be delighted to hear that you question whether they should enjoy the same things other people do based on nothing more than the fact they are trans." Ah ! It was humour , who would have thought it ! I’m impressed and somewhat gobsmacked that you have such a thing in your arsenal . The reality of meeting people face to face and discussing all manner of subjects gives a much better insight as to what a person is really like from my experience . That’s what I was eluding to , but I should have expected nothing less than ridicule from you . Thank you for not letting me down | |||
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"So basically, by your logic as a white man, I shouldn't challenge racism? And as a heterosexual man I shouldn;t challenge homophobia? Did you read my op ? Where did I say people who aren’t part of the LGBQT community shouldn’t comment ? I didn’t . I asked how the community felt about how the straight community speaking for them on my posts . Which seemed completely fair given that no one from the LGBQT community has a problem with me or my posts . Or at least if they do they haven’t said so , but maybe that’s because they can see the truth behind it all and have much better things to do than look to be outraged by me . I can think of at least one person from the LGBQT community who had an issue with your posts! And I;ld guess that there are others that simply don;t look at the thread based on the header alone. OK, I'm bi. I'd love it if straight people stood up for LGBQT rights and issues, it's got nothing to do with anything other than empathy for another human being. " Cool , thanks for your contribution | |||
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"Ah ! It was humour , who would have thought it ! I’m impressed and somewhat gobsmacked that you have such a thing in your arsenal . The reality of meeting people face to face and discussing all manner of subjects gives a much better insight as to what a person is really like from my experience . That’s what I was eluding to , but I should have expected nothing less than ridicule from you . Thank you for not letting me down "You realise that you haven’t actually countered my argument there, don’t you? Don’t you? I worry that you think you have. I’m never sure if it’s because you routinely miss the point entirely, or because you deliberately evade the point to avoid the inevitable. | |||
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"So basically, by your logic as a white man, I shouldn't challenge racism? And as a heterosexual man I shouldn;t challenge homophobia? Did you read my op ? Where did I say people who aren’t part of the LGBQT community shouldn’t comment ? I didn’t . I asked how the community felt about how the straight community speaking for them on my posts . Which seemed completely fair given that no one from the LGBQT community has a problem with me or my posts . Or at least if they do they haven’t said so , but maybe that’s because they can see the truth behind it all and have much better things to do than look to be outraged by me . I can think of at least one person from the LGBQT community who had an issue with your posts! And I can think of at least one who didn’t , who posted on this thread . I thought you weren’t bothered one way or the other ...." I have no issue with what you think either way. I was correcting your incorrect statement. | |||
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"This is a question for the LGBQT community . ( But if you’re one of the group of straight people who continually slate me on my posts , please feel free to vent at me again on this one too ! ) Do you feel happy about the straight people who love to take offense on your behalf , or would you feel happier to fight your own battles ? Are you actually offended by the same things as the straight folk who revel in ‘doing the right thing’ ,by speaking out for you . The reason I ask is a recent thread I posted caused an outcry from half a dozen people who weren’t part of the LGBQT community , having a go at me , and yet on the entire thread , not one person from the LGBQT community had a bad word to say about the thread or me . It’s certainly a strange one for me as we’ve met and enjoyed the company of loads from the LGBQT community over the years . And yet here I am being slated for being anti trans ! " Your starting premise is all wrong. People were not loving, or revelling in doing anything. You started the thread, presumably inviting opinions on either side of the discussion. That people expressed an opinion which differed to yours was inevitable, simply because that’s how the world works. People were not fighting a battle, they were simply expressing an opinion on an Internet forum. It is not a case of speaking out on anyone’s behalf. It is a legitimate opinion which exists in its own right, without having to be attached to, or associated with, any particular group. I can quite independently consider ‘equality’ and ‘fairness’ to be worthy things in and of themselves, without having to feel that I am doing anything like fighting someone else’s battle. | |||
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"Ah ! It was humour , who would have thought it ! I’m impressed and somewhat gobsmacked that you have such a thing in your arsenal . The reality of meeting people face to face and discussing all manner of subjects gives a much better insight as to what a person is really like from my experience . That’s what I was eluding to , but I should have expected nothing less than ridicule from you . Thank you for not letting me down
You realise that you haven’t actually countered my argument there, don’t you? Don’t you? I worry that you think you have. I’m never sure if it’s because you routinely miss the point entirely, or because you deliberately evade the point to avoid the inevitable."I’m trying to think of what I don’t want the trans community to enjoy that we do . I made it perfectly clear on the last thread that I didn’t want the fertility treatment for anyone . Trans or not . The money simply isn’t there . The question of boys having periods was resolved in my mind , and I made that clear too . School toilets that house tampon bins in the boys toilets is something that will no doubt be commonplace in the near future . I speak as I see things , and I have consistently said I speak for an army of more right wing leaning middle class people on many subjects . This inevitably rubs certain people up the wrong way , especially you . But if you think about it , I give you the opportunity to voice your opinions too so it’s not all bad is it ? | |||
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"So basically, by your logic as a white man, I shouldn't challenge racism? And as a heterosexual man I shouldn;t challenge homophobia? Did you read my op ? Where did I say people who aren’t part of the LGBQT community shouldn’t comment ? I didn’t . I asked how the community felt about how the straight community speaking for them on my posts . Which seemed completely fair given that no one from the LGBQT community has a problem with me or my posts . Or at least if they do they haven’t said so , but maybe that’s because they can see the truth behind it all and have much better things to do than look to be outraged by me . I can think of at least one person from the LGBQT community who had an issue with your posts! And I can think of at least one who didn’t , who posted on this thread . I thought you weren’t bothered one way or the other .... I have no issue with what you think either way. I was correcting your incorrect statement." At the time they hadn’t posted , when they did I thanked them | |||
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"I think it depends on context. As a disabled person, it pisses me off sometimes when able-bodied people speak out for me without knowing the first thing about me and my problems. However, support is always welcome, but when I ask for it and with knowledge of the situation. 1 billion % agree with every sentiment and word of this paragraph. Now watch all the, self appointed do gooders deliberately misquote and misuse what you have said. Hang on. Are you saying 'speak out for me' or speak out for disabled people? Because there's a huge difference. Unless you are suffering from a unique condition that nobody else has ever experienced then there will be others who have both knowledge and experience of the subject. Cancer specialists may not have ever had the condition themselves but are you saying they cannot speak on the subject? I have a Good enough knowledge of dementia and the effects on both those living with it and their families. Are you seriously saying I am not able to speak out on the subject, offer advice and opinion and challenge misinformation and factually incorrect statements? Or would I be pissing off those with the condition because I don't personally have it? A Dementia is a very different disability to mine, I would imagine that many people affected are not able to speak out for themselves to varying degrees. In my own case, I'm perfectly capable of speaking for myself as are most physically disabled people. Mental disabilities are a separate issue in this regard. Just coming back to your post, you say you can speak up, but can you be heard? As in can you be heard enough to manifest change? My voice is a loud as anyone else's. No, it really isn't" Oh yes it is, oh no it isn't ad infinitum. If mine is quieter, I'm sure you'll add your voice whether I want you to or not. Or I could shout louder, but that would be my prerogative, not yours. | |||
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"This is a question for the LGBQT community . ( But if you’re one of the group of straight people who continually slate me on my posts , please feel free to vent at me again on this one too ! ) Do you feel happy about the straight people who love to take offense on your behalf , or would you feel happier to fight your own battles ? Are you actually offended by the same things as the straight folk who revel in ‘doing the right thing’ ,by speaking out for you . The reason I ask is a recent thread I posted caused an outcry from half a dozen people who weren’t part of the LGBQT community , having a go at me , and yet on the entire thread , not one person from the LGBQT community had a bad word to say about the thread or me . It’s certainly a strange one for me as we’ve met and enjoyed the company of loads from the LGBQT community over the years . And yet here I am being slated for being anti trans ! Your starting premise is all wrong. People were not loving, or revelling in doing anything. You started the thread, presumably inviting opinions on either side of the discussion. That people expressed an opinion which differed to yours was inevitable, simply because that’s how the world works. People were not fighting a battle, they were simply expressing an opinion on an Internet forum. It is not a case of speaking out on anyone’s behalf. It is a legitimate opinion which exists in its own right, without having to be attached to, or associated with, any particular group. I can quite independently consider ‘equality’ and ‘fairness’ to be worthy things in and of themselves, without having to feel that I am doing anything like fighting someone else’s battle. " Nit picking my terminology again . I didn’t say ‘loving’ , and it certainly seemed like the same old faces seem to revel in slating me on these posts . That’s my perspective , one I feel I’m entitled to have . So I don’t feel my starting premise is all wrong at all . This post was to see how the LGBQT community felt , but very few have commented . I guess they don’t need to with the same old posters doing it for them ? I dunno , it just seems a bit tiresome now . I simply try to talk about relevant newsworthy items on here and get lambasted and called out for being anti trans . Hey ho .... | |||
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"snowflake generation, people will feel offended about bloody anything these days "If a “snowflake” is someone who is offended by “bloody anything these days”, then what is the expression for someone who seeks to delegitimise valid criticism of something by lazily trotting our some borderline offensive term like “snowflake”? | |||
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"So basically, by your logic as a white man, I shouldn't challenge racism? And as a heterosexual man I shouldn;t challenge homophobia? Did you read my op ? Where did I say people who aren’t part of the LGBQT community shouldn’t comment ? I didn’t . I asked how the community felt about how the straight community speaking for them on my posts . Which seemed completely fair given that no one from the LGBQT community has a problem with me or my posts . Or at least if they do they haven’t said so , but maybe that’s because they can see the truth behind it all and have much better things to do than look to be outraged by me . I can think of at least one person from the LGBQT community who had an issue with your posts! And I can think of at least one who didn’t , who posted on this thread . I thought you weren’t bothered one way or the other .... I have no issue with what you think either way. I was correcting your incorrect statement. At the time they hadn’t posted , when they did I thanked them "Not the person I was talking about. | |||
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"So basically, by your logic as a white man, I shouldn't challenge racism? And as a heterosexual man I shouldn;t challenge homophobia? Did you read my op ? Where did I say people who aren’t part of the LGBQT community shouldn’t comment ? I didn’t . I asked how the community felt about how the straight community speaking for them on my posts . Which seemed completely fair given that no one from the LGBQT community has a problem with me or my posts . Or at least if they do they haven’t said so , but maybe that’s because they can see the truth behind it all and have much better things to do than look to be outraged by me . I can think of at least one person from the LGBQT community who had an issue with your posts! And I can think of at least one who didn’t , who posted on this thread . I thought you weren’t bothered one way or the other .... I have no issue with what you think either way. I was correcting your incorrect statement. At the time they hadn’t posted , when they did I thanked them
Not the person I was talking about."Ah ok . | |||
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"At what point exactly did it become the case that people can only speak up about issue that directly relate to them? Do I have to be a card carrying member of a specific part of society to know and recognise when someone is being hypocritical, racist, bigoted or descriminatory? " Exactly this. Caitlin Moran said it best, and I make no apology for posting it again here... “You know how this goes. Bono, or Russell Brand, or Emma Thompson, or Charlotte Church, speak out in defence of welfare, or the working poor, and are immediately derided as “champagne socialists” by the professionally snide. The denouncing of champagne socialists always follows a strict format – mentioning the price of the house the champagne socialist lives in, their income/net worth, whether or not they went to public school, if their children do, and accompanying it with a picture of the champagne socialist either dressed up to the nines on a red carpet (how can they attend a movie premiere when the poor cannot attend a movie premiere!) or looking angry and shouting at a demonstration. (This person is crazed with socialism! Look at them snarl! Socialism is the ultimate Bitchy Resting Face! You will need Botox now, for sure!) The demented logic seems to be as follows: that you cannot stand up for the poor unless you are poor yourself. That if you have managed to accrue any wealth and security, unless you have subsequently given away every penny of it to charities for the poor, you are a hypocrite to speak about the poor. Only the poor can speak about, and for, the poor. So, if you are a real socialist, you must yourself stay poor for ever. Of course, there are several, very obvious, logical flaws in this argument. The first is a fundamental misunderstanding of socialism. There are many misunderstandings about what a socialist is: primarily that it’s someone who wears a donkey jacket and lives by a brazier, possibly in 1979, and listens only to Billy Bragg. Well, I know loads of socialists like this, and they’re ace. They get shit done. But that’s not socialism. That’s people. People who like old coats and Billy Bragg. Socialism is just a single, simple sentence: the belief that the necessities for the functioning of a society should be provided without profit. So that’s health, education, welfare, transport, the emergency services, the prison service and the justice system, paid for by taxation, and available to everyone, regardless of wealth. No paying Serco millions for running overcrowded jails. No G4S – the guys who fucked up the Olympics – still being paid by the government, despite being investigated by the serious fraud office for massively overcharging. There’s nothing in socialism that prevents Charlotte Church from living in a nice house, walking a red carpet and, after paying her taxes, earning millions a year. If she were a champagne anarchic communist, who believed that all property is theft, and that money should be abolished, then she would be a hypocrite. Champagne socialists, on the other hand, are people who could personally pay for an open return standard ticket to Manchester that costs £329 since privatisation, but recognise that other people can’t, and are suggesting that, maybe, society would function better if rail travel were cheaper, so everyone could use it. What people who denounce champagne socialists are doing is, essentially, trying to shame people who have empathy. Now, that’s a bad day down the opinion mines in anyone’s book.“ | |||
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"Not read your other posts but a very interesting question as i get very wound up by people making them selves spokespeople for people they feel can't stand up for themselves, even though they can. You fundamentally misunderstand why people speak up for each other. No I fundamentally don't. People just think they know what should and shouldn't offend better than the actual people involved and can't keep their noses out. Hence the way the whole of Western civilisation constantly meddkes in other countries affairs, as we know best. You fundamentally don't know when to keep your nose out of other people's business, quite clearly. Sticking up for, somebody is when a friend or acquaintance asks for it, not because you know best. " I disagree. Some things like, I dunno, racism, homophobia, misogyny are objectively and fundamentally wrong. Calling people out on any of the above should not be dismissed as meddling. | |||
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"I made it perfectly clear on the last thread that I didn’t want the fertility treatment for anyone . Trans or not . The money simply isn’t there ." Nice rewriting of history there. Perhaps you should go back and read the OP you wrote, which repeatedly questioned whether it should be available to trans people. If your argument was ‘trans or not’, there is simply no need to use the word ‘trans’ anywhere, at all. "I speak as I see things" Perhaps you should think first. Even occasionally would do. "...and I have consistently said I speak for an army of more right wing leaning middle class people on many subjects ." ’Army.’ Good grief. Your word choice speaks volumes. What a joke. "This inevitably rubs certain people up the wrong way , especially you . But if you think about it , I give you the opportunity to voice your opinions too so it’s not all bad is it ? " Honestly, I’d rather you applied a modicum of consideration, and then I wouldn’t have to. | |||
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"At what point exactly did it become the case that people can only speak up about issue that directly relate to them? Do I have to be a card carrying member of a specific part of society to know and recognise when someone is being hypocritical, racist, bigoted or descriminatory? People throw around the terms 'snowflake' or 'taking offence for others' when all they're trying to do is dismiss the arguments against themselves generally. " Spot on as John Cleese said snowflake is a term of abuse used by sociopaths who disapprove of empathy Ms Icebreaker | |||
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"Unfortunately, patriarchy types don't seem to realise that getting offended on behalf of others, is typical patriarchy. " But it’s a logical fallacy to suggest that someone who is offended by, say, racism, is “getting offended on behalf of others”. They are not. They are offended because racism is objectively offensive. | |||
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"snowflake generation, people will feel offended about bloody anything these days
Bit harsh but I agree the OP does seem to take offence at things that don;t directly effect him... Wait, it was the OP you were talking about wasnlt it?
Was that an attempt at humor ?
Good one "It actually was pretty good. It’s like people wanted to leave the EU now calling those who didn’t want to leave ‘remoaners’, seemingly oblivious to the irony that they had spent the last 40 odd years whinging about the EU. | |||
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"Spot on as John Cleese said snowflake is a term of abuse used by sociopaths who disapprove of empathy Ms Icebreaker " Well he is famous so he must be right. Just like too little empathy is a disorder, too much is a disorder too. Snowflake is basically the other side of a sociopath. It's not good for you, and it's a growing problem as the media has popularized it as some sort of normal state. You are not supposed to get angry or upset over pronouns for example. | |||
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"This is a question for the LGBQT community . ( But if you’re one of the group of straight people who continually slate me on my posts , please feel free to vent at me again on this one too ! ) Do you feel happy about the straight people who love to take offense on your behalf , or would you feel happier to fight your own battles ? Are you actually offended by the same things as the straight folk who revel in ‘doing the right thing’ ,by speaking out for you . The reason I ask is a recent thread I posted caused an outcry from half a dozen people who weren’t part of the LGBQT community , having a go at me , and yet on the entire thread , not one person from the LGBQT community had a bad word to say about the thread or me . It’s certainly a strange one for me as we’ve met and enjoyed the company of loads from the LGBQT community over the years . And yet here I am being slated for being anti trans ! Your starting premise is all wrong. People were not loving, or revelling in doing anything. You started the thread, presumably inviting opinions on either side of the discussion. That people expressed an opinion which differed to yours was inevitable, simply because that’s how the world works. People were not fighting a battle, they were simply expressing an opinion on an Internet forum. It is not a case of speaking out on anyone’s behalf. It is a legitimate opinion which exists in its own right, without having to be attached to, or associated with, any particular group. I can quite independently consider ‘equality’ and ‘fairness’ to be worthy things in and of themselves, without having to feel that I am doing anything like fighting someone else’s battle. Nit picking my terminology again . I didn’t say ‘loving’ , and it certainly seemed like the same old faces seem to revel in slating me on these posts . That’s my perspective , one I feel I’m entitled to have . So I don’t feel my starting premise is all wrong at all . This post was to see how the LGBQT community felt , but very few have commented . I guess they don’t need to with the same old posters doing it for them ? I dunno , it just seems a bit tiresome now . I simply try to talk about relevant newsworthy items on here and get lambasted and called out for being anti trans . Hey ho ...." You said: “Do you feel happy about the straight people who love to take offense on your behalf , or would you feel happier to fight your own battles ? Are you actually offended by the same things as the straight folk who revel in ‘doing the right thing’ ,by speaking out for you” People weren’t slating you. Unless by slating you mean reasonably and clearly disagreeing with what you appeared to be suggesting. | |||
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"So basically, by your logic as a white man, I shouldn't challenge racism? And as a heterosexual man I shouldn;t challenge homophobia? " I'm a white male. And I agree homophobia and racism is abhorrent. Why can't we speak up? | |||
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"Spot on as John Cleese said snowflake is a term of abuse used by sociopaths who disapprove of empathy Ms Icebreaker Well he is famous so he must be right. Just like too little empathy is a disorder, too much is a disorder too. Snowflake is basically the other side of a sociopath. It's not good for you, and it's a growing problem as the media has popularized it as some sort of normal state. You are not supposed to get angry or upset over pronouns for example." I agree, you shouldn't get upset over pronouns. It's quite easy to use the pronoun that the person wants to use rather than the one you think it should be. | |||
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"I would like to share a true story with anyone who stumbles across this thread, whether you’ve done so today, or years from now. I will never forget the 1st trans person I met, I was 22 years old, doing something menial for a living. He was an 18 year old who had just arrived in the city of Oxford. A bright young boy who had just joined the prestigious Oxford University; his whole life ahead of him. Over the following 3 years I saw this intelligent, kind, shy, insecure boy flourish into an intelligent, kind, outgoing and confident young woman. She graduated from Oxford and was now ready to open her wings and fly away from the welcoming and inclusive world that her College offered her, eager to be a contributing member of society. To live her life and conquer the world in her own way. We lost contact straight after that as we weren’t exactly besties; I knew her through work. She killed herself 2 years ago. The reason behind that was not because she was a snowflake, it was not because she was prat or an unstable person who refused to accept biology, or any reason that would in any way assign blame to her, even if she took her own life. It was the constant passive transphobia bombardment she faced on her day to day, bit by bit eating her soul away. The isolation. From the news reporter, the barista, the hospital nurse, the movie actor/actress, the bouncer, the ticket salesman, the singer, etc, who innocently, or ignorantly, made her feel like there was something wrong with her, like she was different. Like she didn’t deserve the same respect and treatment as anyone of the millions of people walking the streets on any given day. Her name was A. Now take 2 seconds of your life and really let that sink in. In case that doesn’t quite do it, look around you, to the people you hold most dear in your life. The ones life would just wouldn’t quite be the same without. How do you know, with absolute certainty, that they are not A? What or how much of your wellbeing do you have to sacrifice to use language that is inclusive, to view every person as your equal? We, as human beings, all have a duty to speak up in the face of bigotry in any way it manifests itself. Not a right; a duty. Your gender, race, religious view, age, height, appendage or indeed bra size bear no bearing in your right to speak up. Especially when your right to speak up is being questioned. Not because you need to stand up for someone else but because it is the right thing to do. " 
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"I would like to share a true story with anyone who stumbles across this thread, whether you’ve done so today, or years from now. I will never forget the 1st trans person I met, I was 22 years old, doing something menial for a living. He was an 18 year old who had just arrived in the city of Oxford. A bright young boy who had just joined the prestigious Oxford University; his whole life ahead of him. Over the following 3 years I saw this intelligent, kind, shy, insecure boy flourish into an intelligent, kind, outgoing and confident young woman. She graduated from Oxford and was now ready to open her wings and fly away from the welcoming and inclusive world that her College offered her, eager to be a contributing member of society. To live her life and conquer the world in her own way. We lost contact straight after that as we weren’t exactly besties; I knew her through work. She killed herself 2 years ago. The reason behind that was not because she was a snowflake, it was not because she was prat or an unstable person who refused to accept biology, or any reason that would in any way assign blame to her, even if she took her own life. It was the constant passive transphobia bombardment she faced on her day to day, bit by bit eating her soul away. The isolation. From the news reporter, the barista, the hospital nurse, the movie actor/actress, the bouncer, the ticket salesman, the singer, etc, who innocently, or ignorantly, made her feel like there was something wrong with her, like she was different. Like she didn’t deserve the same respect and treatment as anyone of the millions of people walking the streets on any given day. Her name was A. Now take 2 seconds of your life and really let that sink in. In case that doesn’t quite do it, look around you, to the people you hold most dear in your life. The ones life would just wouldn’t quite be the same without. How do you know, with absolute certainty, that they are not A? What or how much of your wellbeing do you have to sacrifice to use language that is inclusive, to view every person as your equal? We, as human beings, all have a duty to speak up in the face of bigotry in any way it manifests itself. Not a right; a duty. Your gender, race, religious view, age, height, appendage or indeed bra size bear no bearing in your right to speak up. Especially when your right to speak up is being questioned. Not because you need to stand up for someone else but because it is the right thing to do. " I have a friend who is transitioning. Out of our circle of friends there has only been one person who has been negative. They are no longer part of our group. His journey has been long and hard going, but we are there for him and have asked loads of questions to increase our knowledge. He is still our friend and always will be. Just need to remember to use the correct personal pronoun. He corrects me by calling me a tit (she was alot more politer than he is lol). | |||
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"I'm of an age whereby I come from the dark ages. the term lbgt wasn't even a thing back then, people like me were viewed as ... well ..let's not go there... I was even expelled from school at aged 14 because people didn't understand so in these times "support/empathy" call it what you will, in my opinion is always welcome in whatever form it takes ... still a way to go but people have become kinder .. Yes I can take care of myself for the most part but if anyone wishes to "be on my side" then that's great..Times have moved on and probably had it not been for support from "Normal" people ( I use the term normal loosely but you know what I mean) things may not have changed much ... Any positive voice is a good voice ...so thanks to those " | |||
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"I would like to share a true story with anyone who stumbles across this thread, whether you’ve done so today, or years from now. I will never forget the 1st trans person I met, I was 22 years old, doing something menial for a living. He was an 18 year old who had just arrived in the city of Oxford. A bright young boy who had just joined the prestigious Oxford University; his whole life ahead of him. Over the following 3 years I saw this intelligent, kind, shy, insecure boy flourish into an intelligent, kind, outgoing and confident young woman. She graduated from Oxford and was now ready to open her wings and fly away from the welcoming and inclusive world that her College offered her, eager to be a contributing member of society. To live her life and conquer the world in her own way. We lost contact straight after that as we weren’t exactly besties; I knew her through work. She killed herself 2 years ago. The reason behind that was not because she was a snowflake, it was not because she was prat or an unstable person who refused to accept biology, or any reason that would in any way assign blame to her, even if she took her own life. It was the constant passive transphobia bombardment she faced on her day to day, bit by bit eating her soul away. The isolation. From the news reporter, the barista, the hospital nurse, the movie actor/actress, the bouncer, the ticket salesman, the singer, etc, who innocently, or ignorantly, made her feel like there was something wrong with her, like she was different. Like she didn’t deserve the same respect and treatment as anyone of the millions of people walking the streets on any given day. Her name was A. Now take 2 seconds of your life and really let that sink in. In case that doesn’t quite do it, look around you, to the people you hold most dear in your life. The ones life would just wouldn’t quite be the same without. How do you know, with absolute certainty, that they are not A? What or how much of your wellbeing do you have to sacrifice to use language that is inclusive, to view every person as your equal? We, as human beings, all have a duty to speak up in the face of bigotry in any way it manifests itself. Not a right; a duty. Your gender, race, religious view, age, height, appendage or indeed bra size bear no bearing in your right to speak up. Especially when your right to speak up is being questioned. Not because you need to stand up for someone else but because it is the right thing to do. " Beautifully written- this is why! | |||
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"I would like to share a true story with anyone who stumbles across this thread, whether you’ve done so today, or years from now. I will never forget the 1st trans person I met, I was 22 years old, doing something menial for a living. He was an 18 year old who had just arrived in the city of Oxford. A bright young boy who had just joined the prestigious Oxford University; his whole life ahead of him. Over the following 3 years I saw this intelligent, kind, shy, insecure boy flourish into an intelligent, kind, outgoing and confident young woman. She graduated from Oxford and was now ready to open her wings and fly away from the welcoming and inclusive world that her College offered her, eager to be a contributing member of society. To live her life and conquer the world in her own way. We lost contact straight after that as we weren’t exactly besties; I knew her through work. She killed herself 2 years ago. The reason behind that was not because she was a snowflake, it was not because she was prat or an unstable person who refused to accept biology, or any reason that would in any way assign blame to her, even if she took her own life. It was the constant passive transphobia bombardment she faced on her day to day, bit by bit eating her soul away. The isolation. From the news reporter, the barista, the hospital nurse, the movie actor/actress, the bouncer, the ticket salesman, the singer, etc, who innocently, or ignorantly, made her feel like there was something wrong with her, like she was different. Like she didn’t deserve the same respect and treatment as anyone of the millions of people walking the streets on any given day. Her name was A. Now take 2 seconds of your life and really let that sink in. In case that doesn’t quite do it, look around you, to the people you hold most dear in your life. The ones life would just wouldn’t quite be the same without. How do you know, with absolute certainty, that they are not A? What or how much of your wellbeing do you have to sacrifice to use language that is inclusive, to view every person as your equal? We, as human beings, all have a duty to speak up in the face of bigotry in any way it manifests itself. Not a right; a duty. Your gender, race, religious view, age, height, appendage or indeed bra size bear no bearing in your right to speak up. Especially when your right to speak up is being questioned. Not because you need to stand up for someone else but because it is the right thing to do. " Thank you for sharing. I'll remember her. | |||
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"The news article talked of the trans fertility , as I said time and time again . Yes , the actual piece of news itself , not me !!! And as I said mire than once , if I’m going to quote a news piece , why the hell should I omit the trans bit ! The BBC didn’t so why should I ?" Because you’re trying to claim that you were asking in general. If that were the case, you would have removed the references. That’s why. “The BBC is reporting this about trans people, but it made me wonder if it should be the case for anyone.” Not difficult, is it? You made no attempt to widen the question, which rather undermines your claim. "I assure you I do think first , but with a different way of thinking to you . And I’m not going to apologise for that . For you to insult me yet again with the suggestion that I should think first , even occasionally would do , is a typical rude response from you ." The difficulty with this is that you have, more than once, attempted to use the defence that you just post as you find these things, and have responded with ‘I didn’t think of that’ to fairly rudimentary arguments. So, which is it? You think about it, but provide no evidence of that (see above) or you just post without thinking? "My choice of words in using ‘army’ is nothing more than suggesting there are a lot like myself . Not that I want to start a war , but think what you will ." Here’s a funny thing; the words we use betray our mindset, if not chosen carefully. "And finally , just so that you are fully aware that I’m answering all your points . Who designated you as the spokesperson for anyone on this forum ? You demand me to show consideration , and in your usual condescending way , you actually say if I did ‘ then you wouldn’t have to ‘ . Well hey , I’ve got another newsflash for you - you really don’t ‘have to’ at all . No one is making you do or say anything . You are choosing to . Don’t complain about the fact that you make the choices you make ." There are two basic problems with this. The first is an unevidenced leap; the notion that because I said I have to respond, I must think I speak for everyone. That doesn’t follow. Your point is unsupported by the evidence. Another example of you arguing the adjacent. The second problem is that actually, yes, I do have to. I have a moral, ethical, professional compulsion to respond to this kind of thing, because if it is allowed to go unchallenged, then people will go on thinking that it’s an appropriate way to behave. “He who observes spills no less blood than he who inflicts the wound.” | |||
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" I have a moral, ethical, professional compulsion to respond to this kind of thing, because if it is allowed to go unchallenged, then people will go on thinking that it’s an appropriate way to behave. “He who observes spills no less blood than he who inflicts the wound.”" I agree. I think there's also much to be said for educating yourself without having to debate the humanity of others. It is part of a broader hostile background and it does contribute to harm. Particularly when attempts to defend said humanity are ridiculed or diminished. I say this as a bi woman with other identities where I lack privilege. I am not comfortable outing myself with all of them, I'm not willing to fight every fight, it's exhausting. Sometimes you do just have to take the hits and questioning of your right to exist. Sometimes the prejudice, indignity, abuse and threats are less than the constant grind of having to explain everything from the beginning and being patient no matter how inappropriate questions are or how much you doubt the sincerity of those asking the questions (which is a society wide comment). But where I can stand up for myself and others, I do. | |||
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"I’ve enjoyed reading all responses bar just the one poster who shall remain nameless . " Oh, I wonder who that could be. I can just picture you, giggling away to yourself as you typed this oh-so-clever conclusion. Zero fucks given. | |||
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"The remarkable speed that you suddenly flipped from ridicule to understanding in the period thread would suggest that you like to troll the forum, make deliberately incendiary remarks, but you don’t want to be seen as the bad guy." I thought that too. That the story wasn’t really about ‘boys having periods’ had already been explained by a few people, so should have already been pretty clear. Plus there was the cynical edit of the original story’s headline in the thread title which removed the reference to the very specific trans context of the story. "I’ve enjoyed reading all responses bar just the one poster who shall remain nameless . Oh, I wonder who that could be. I can just picture you, giggling away to yourself as you typed this oh-so-clever conclusion. Zero fucks given." Oh, who was it? It was such a mystery! | |||
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"Nice attempt to play the victim, Gloswingers. Unfortunately for you, the threads are still there for us to see that you weren’t innocently asking questions to expand your knowledge. You were posting your incredulity in the periods thread, and were clearly looking for others to join you in your outrage. As for the fertility thread, you’ve flip-flopped between claiming that you were interested in the question generally, not just for trans people, and also that you’d like to learn more. Again, the OP in that thread makes it abundantly clear that neither of those things was your intention. The remarkable speed that you suddenly flipped from ridicule to understanding in the period thread would suggest that you like to troll the forum, make deliberately incendiary remarks, but you don’t want to be seen as the bad guy. The progress of the fertility thread, followed by this one, shows exactly the same thing. So to answer your question, if you’re genuinely interested, if you genuinely want to open your mind, ask your questions in an open manner, not a deliberately provocative one. I’ve enjoyed reading all responses bar just the one poster who shall remain nameless . Oh, I wonder who that could be. I can just picture you, giggling away to yourself as you typed this oh-so-clever conclusion. Zero fucks given." You can picture me giggling away to myself as I typed ? You couldn’t be more wrong Mr Oatcake . You don’t evoke anything like a smile from me , never mind a giggle . | |||
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"snowflake generation, people will feel offended about bloody anything these days
What he said!! " | |||
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"It’s not really about sexuality it’s about your own conscience and weather you feel it’s the right thing to do to stand up for something you believe in. I’m bisexual so part of the lgtb+ community,I was at a event and was told I was not lesbian or bi enough to be there and looked straight !! another person stood up for me and pointed out I was as entitled and as Welcome as anyone. Did I care what her sexuality was ? No did she care what mine was ? No she simply acted in a way which was in keeping with her moarals and beliefs. Though I personally do take offence in this comment of yours “Are you actually offended by the same things as the straight folk who revel in ‘doing the right thing’ ,by speaking out for you” By this your implying that people are offended by things depending on there sexuality and the reference to straight folk is at the very least condescending." My apologies to the straight folk then , I hadn’t meant to do this . | |||
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"I suppose I’m part of the B community and actually I couldn’t care less cos I don’t ram my sexuality down anyone’s throat anyway. " Said the actress to the bishop... | |||
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"I think there is a difference between sticking up for and simple support for. Generally speaking, most people can stick up for themselves. What I admire the most are people who offer unconditional support without shouting out our cause from the rooftops. Everyone wants to be accepted and sadly, I have had to leave some non-accepting people behind on my journey. All they had to do was say "I'm with you", not beat down the door of 10 Downing Street in support. All support is welcome, of course, but to me, support from those you are closest to will always trump a movement of people with a rallying cry." I agree with this completely. My part in these discussions hasn’t felt like, or meant to come across as sticking up for anyone. I didn’t notice someone from the trans community posting and think “I bet they would like me to stick up for them!” and then try and put across what I assumed to be their view, on their behalf. I simply posted my own views in response to the OP as I saw it. Which l suppose is in line with being in support in things like of equality and fairness generally, but certainly not sticking up in any patronising or unwelcome sense for anyone specifically. | |||
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" The reason I ask is a recent thread I posted caused an outcry from half a dozen people who weren’t part of the LGBQT community , having a go at me , and yet on the entire thread , not one person from the LGBQT community had a bad word to say about the thread or me " Congrats, you've discovered that there are a lot more straight people than LGBTQ people. Well done. | |||
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" The reason I ask is a recent thread I posted caused an outcry from half a dozen people who weren’t part of the LGBQT community , having a go at me , and yet on the entire thread , not one person from the LGBQT community had a bad word to say about the thread or me Congrats, you've discovered that there are a lot more straight people than LGBTQ people. Well done. " Well I guess it’s true . You never stop learning in this wonderful world we live in | |||
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"This is a question for the LGBQT community . ( But if you’re one of the group of straight people who continually slate me on my posts , please feel free to vent at me again on this one too ! ) Do you feel happy about the straight people who love to take offense on your behalf , or would you feel happier to fight your own battles ? Are you actually offended by the same things as the straight folk who revel in ‘doing the right thing’ ,by speaking out for you . The reason I ask is a recent thread I posted caused an outcry from half a dozen people who weren’t part of the LGBQT community , having a go at me , and yet on the entire thread , not one person from the LGBQT community had a bad word to say about the thread or me . It’s certainly a strange one for me as we’ve met and enjoyed the company of loads from the LGBQT community over the years . And yet here I am being slated for being anti trans ! " I don't think your sexuality should prevent you from being able to have opinions on my sexuality. My only advice would be to think before you speak when expressing it in a public forum. Whatever your opinion. I'm a white, British male, but you'd be surprised at the number and kinds of causes I support. I'm not Snow Leopard, but I want them to be safe lol. Fight the good fight, but don't let it consume you. Life's too short to waste it on fighting. | |||
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"This is a question for the LGBQT community . ( But if you’re one of the group of straight people who continually slate me on my posts , please feel free to vent at me again on this one too ! ) Do you feel happy about the straight people who love to take offense on your behalf , or would you feel happier to fight your own battles ? Are you actually offended by the same things as the straight folk who revel in ‘doing the right thing’ ,by speaking out for you . The reason I ask is a recent thread I posted caused an outcry from half a dozen people who weren’t part of the LGBQT community , having a go at me , and yet on the entire thread , not one person from the LGBQT community had a bad word to say about the thread or me . It’s certainly a strange one for me as we’ve met and enjoyed the company of loads from the LGBQT community over the years . And yet here I am being slated for being anti trans ! I don't think your sexuality should prevent you from being able to have opinions on my sexuality. My only advice would be to think before you speak when expressing it in a public forum. Whatever your opinion. I'm a white, British male, but you'd be surprised at the number and kinds of causes I support. I'm not Snow Leopard, but I want them to be safe lol. Fight the good fight, but don't let it consume you. Life's too short to waste it on fighting." Great post , and well said . I love the last paragraph | |||
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aw shit I'm a bit late on that one | |||
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"Happy New year aw shit I'm a bit late on that one "Happy New Year to you too , it’s never too late to bestow good wishes | |||
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"The two articles / news stories I have started posts about have evoked a healthy debate . They have been far from being anti trans , in fact they have opened my mind to subject matter I wouldn’t have expected it to . As an example , the headline ‘ Boys can have periods too ‘ , which I added it when I first read it , I thought what a load of nonsense . I listened to what some people said , read a bit more a found that it was possible if a woman was transitioning to a man , and thus may still have periods for a while . The other one was about whether trans fertility issues such as feeezing sperm and eggs , and further I’ve treatment should be available on the the nhs . The general consensus on the forum on a full thread was no , and also no to anyone else too . I started this thread because there are a few very vocal posters who jump on my threads every time , throwing accusations that I’m anti trans . Which I’m not , but because they believe I am they will keep on and on at me . I ask them this . How will anyone learn more and understand anything new about a subject matter that’s very relevant in the world we live in today if no one asks questions ? I get told I should be more tolerant , I should be nicer , or that I should just not say anything . Which if I did would mean the threads wouldn’t have run and healthy debate would have been missed . Myself and others wouldn’t have learned anything . So I make no apologies , I’ve enjoyed reading all responses bar just the one poster who shall remain nameless . "
I think your threads have encouraged debate from both sides, and as you said, it makes (some!!) people think outside their own box. That's always a good thing. | |||
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"Call me anything you like, your words have no power over me. More importantly, I am very happy with who I am and you aren't. That means I win. I dress male or female as I feel the need and know that 90% of the human race who are insecure feel the need to abuse/hate/judge me and I feel so sorry for them, theirs are the lives that are ultimately lacking pleasure. " | |||
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"At what point exactly did it become the case that people can only speak up about issue that directly relate to them? Do I have to be a card carrying member of a specific part of society to know and recognise when someone is being hypocritical, racist, bigoted or descriminatory? People throw around the terms 'snowflake' or 'taking offence for others' when all they're trying to do is dismiss the arguments against themselves generally. " This to a large degree. If I see something and it's wrong in my understanding, then i'll decide what action to take. I don't have to have been assaulted to know people shouldn't be assaulted. | |||
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"At what point exactly did it become the case that people can only speak up about issue that directly relate to them? Do I have to be a card carrying member of a specific part of society to know and recognise when someone is being hypocritical, racist, bigoted or descriminatory? People throw around the terms 'snowflake' or 'taking offence for others' when all they're trying to do is dismiss the arguments against themselves generally. This to a large degree. If I see something and it's wrong in my understanding, then i'll decide what action to take. I don't have to have been assaulted to know people shouldn't be assaulted." I absolutely agree with acknowledging the difference between right and wrong . I’m not asking anyone not to do this . But some from the lgbtq community have said they are perfectly happy to fight their own battles , some have said they don’t mind support , but only if the people supporting them know them well enough to do so . Some have also said they do appreciate the support whatever . But surely first we have to ascertain whether there’s been any wrong doing in the first place . And I really don’t think there has . Maybe I’ve been a bit naive with the ‘boys having periods ‘ thread , and I’ve allowed my better judgement to be clouded by a headline . But ones things for sure , I won’t have been the only one to think the way I did , not by a long shot . So my thread will have hopefully opened other peoples eyes to the intricacies of this delicate subject . As for the nhs funding trans fertility issues , it was resounding no from the forum overall . Just as it was for anyone else too as the nhs can’t afford it . Yet I was once again pilloried by a select few fir starting the thread , and supposedly having an anti trans stance . The news article I quoted was from the BBC and was entitled ‘ Should the NHS pay for transgender fertility treatment ‘ . Yet I had a couple of posters who insisted I was asking a loaded question by using the word transgender in my original question ! Yes , you read this correctly , it was the BBC news article that was worded this way , and I merely quoted it , but they figured I should have censored it by removing a word . It’s this kind of nonsense that winds me up . | |||
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"This is a question for the LGBQT community . ( But if you’re one of the group of straight people who continually slate me on my posts , please feel free to vent at me again on this one too ! ) Do you feel happy about the straight people who love to take offense on your behalf , or would you feel happier to fight your own battles ? Are you actually offended by the same things as the straight folk who revel in ‘doing the right thing’ ,by speaking out for you . The reason I ask is a recent thread I posted caused an outcry from half a dozen people who weren’t part of the LGBQT community , having a go at me , and yet on the entire thread , not one person from the LGBQT community had a bad word to say about the thread or me . It’s certainly a strange one for me as we’ve met and enjoyed the company of loads from the LGBQT community over the years . And yet here I am being slated for being anti trans ! " If people only spoke up for "their own" I'd be working the plantations and saying yes sir, massa (master)! That said, whilst this isn't about race I do find it baffling some white people get upset/offended on *my* behalf, where no offense was implied/intended...and I've not been offended. | |||
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"Not read your other posts but a very interesting question as i get very wound up by people making them selves spokespeople for people they feel can't stand up for themselves, even though they can. " | |||
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"I think it depends on context. As a disabled person, it pisses me off sometimes when able-bodied people speak out for me without knowing the first thing about me and my problems. However, support is always welcome, but when I ask for it and with knowledge of the situation." replace disability with race and this for me. | |||
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"This is a question for the LGBQT community . ( But if you’re one of the group of straight people who continually slate me on my posts , please feel free to vent at me again on this one too ! ) Do you feel happy about the straight people who love to take offense on your behalf , or would you feel happier to fight your own battles ? Are you actually offended by the same things as the straight folk who revel in ‘doing the right thing’ ,by speaking out for you . The reason I ask is a recent thread I posted caused an outcry from half a dozen people who weren’t part of the LGBQT community , having a go at me , and yet on the entire thread , not one person from the LGBQT community had a bad word to say about the thread or me . It’s certainly a strange one for me as we’ve met and enjoyed the company of loads from the LGBQT community over the years . And yet here I am being slated for being anti trans ! If people only spoke up for "their own" I'd be working the plantations and saying yes sir, massa (master)! That said, whilst this isn't about race I do find it baffling some white people get upset/offended on *my* behalf, where no offense was implied/intended...and I've not been offended." And that’s a great example of what I’m trying to elude to | |||
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"It’s not about getting “ most of the forum “ to either agree or disagree with you and changing your stance and opinion depending on which will garner the most support people’s opinions are their opinions and right or wrong they should stand by them. If you have a opinion or belief then have the conviction to stand by it don’t backtrack and Changing tak because others don’t agree you end up looking foolish. Just because the majority think something doesn’t mean it’s right. going back to the original post maybe the majority of the people you claim to hand spoken to don’t want others to stand up for them but that doesn’t make it right not to.I would rather stand up for a group that only 1 person wanted support and risk upsetting the rest than do nothing at all , why ? Because that’s my conscience and my way but that not to say that’s right or wrong. You seem to have a bit of a issue with thinking that lots of agreement means something must be right and also over generalisation. Everyone is different and just because you are part of one demographic doesn’t mean you share the same personality and beliefs with the rest of that demographic. " I can say that in all honesty I have never changed my tak to garner support from other forum users in the entire eight years on fab . I change it purely because things that get said may help me see things differently . And if that makes me look foolish I really don’t mind . It really doesn’t bother me whether people support or don’t support my opinion , but what bothers me is intransigence . It would be a pretty sorry state of affairs if everyone adopted the attitude that they would never consider changing their opinions on anything don’t you think ? Look at your last sentence again , and apply the same thinking to yourself . It’s just as applicable I think . | |||
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"I suppose I’m part of the B community and actually I couldn’t care less cos I don’t ram my sexuality down anyone’s throat anyway. Said the actress to the bishop... "Haha! | |||
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"I suppose I’m part of the B community and actually I couldn’t care less cos I don’t ram my sexuality down anyone’s throat anyway. Said the actress to the bishop...
Haha! "From my perspective , it’s more likely to be the bishop ramming his sexuality down the actresses throat , but by saying this I’ve no doubt I’ll be accused of being phobic or anti someone for saying so | |||
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"I don’t really have any thoughts on lgbtq. But one thing that does my head in is when people get offended on my behalf when it’s things to do with race and culture. Absolutely hate it when people try and take the moral high ground over something minor, make incorrect assumptions, and inflame situations to makes things 10 times worse. For example, I was telling my best mate (white) about some troubles I was having on a project. He thinks he’s really liberal and responded with “ah, those disgusting old white men again”. And he was being 100% serious. He then proceeded to tell me about institutionalised racism and rattled off some shit he’d obviously read in The Guardian. In reality the issue I was complaining about had nothing to do with race and it hadn’t even entered my mind. I’m noticing this kind of “White Knight” type of behaviour happening more and more often now and that’s why society is become so polarised. Sorry to go slightly off course, but it’s the same kind of scenario. " You haven’t gone off course at all . This is exactly my point , and the reason I started this thread . I really think it makes things a whole lot worse in so many cases when you get this white knight behaviour . | |||
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"I don’t really have any thoughts on lgbtq. But one thing that does my head in is when people get offended on my behalf when it’s things to do with race and culture. Absolutely hate it when people try and take the moral high ground over something minor, make incorrect assumptions, and inflame situations to makes things 10 times worse. For example, I was telling my best mate (white) about some troubles I was having on a project. He thinks he’s really liberal and responded with “ah, those disgusting old white men again”. And he was being 100% serious. He then proceeded to tell me about institutionalised racism and rattled off some shit he’d obviously read in The Guardian. In reality the issue I was complaining about had nothing to do with race and it hadn’t even entered my mind. I’m noticing this kind of “White Knight” type of behaviour happening more and more often now and that’s why society is become so polarised. Sorry to go slightly off course, but it’s the same kind of scenario. " You don't sound like you like your best mate all that much | |||
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"At what point exactly did it become the case that people can only speak up about issue that directly relate to them? Do I have to be a card carrying member of a specific part of society to know and recognise when someone is being hypocritical, racist, bigoted or descriminatory? People throw around the terms 'snowflake' or 'taking offence for others' when all they're trying to do is dismiss the arguments against themselves generally. " You don’t have to be part of a demographic to recognise those things. But you definitely DO have to be part of one of those demographics to understand what it’s like. To understand which battles to pick and choose. To have an understanding of the ripple effect of every action you have. And most importantly as a member of that demographic you have infinite more experience in diffusing and resolving situations in a reasonable way, compared with whoever it is that thinks they need to speak on your behalf. I’m all for supporting someone. That’s cool. But speaking FOR someone, on a topic you’ve never lived is dumb. | |||
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"I don’t really have any thoughts on lgbtq. But one thing that does my head in is when people get offended on my behalf when it’s things to do with race and culture. Absolutely hate it when people try and take the moral high ground over something minor, make incorrect assumptions, and inflame situations to makes things 10 times worse. For example, I was telling my best mate (white) about some troubles I was having on a project. He thinks he’s really liberal and responded with “ah, those disgusting old white men again”. And he was being 100% serious. He then proceeded to tell me about institutionalised racism and rattled off some shit he’d obviously read in The Guardian. In reality the issue I was complaining about had nothing to do with race and it hadn’t even entered my mind. I’m noticing this kind of “White Knight” type of behaviour happening more and more often now and that’s why society is become so polarised. Sorry to go slightly off course, but it’s the same kind of scenario. You don't sound like you like your best mate all that much" I love him, he’s the best! | |||
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"I don’t really have any thoughts on lgbtq. But one thing that does my head in is when people get offended on my behalf when it’s things to do with race and culture. Absolutely hate it when people try and take the moral high ground over something minor, make incorrect assumptions, and inflame situations to makes things 10 times worse. For example, I was telling my best mate (white) about some troubles I was having on a project. He thinks he’s really liberal and responded with “ah, those disgusting old white men again”. And he was being 100% serious. He then proceeded to tell me about institutionalised racism and rattled off some shit he’d obviously read in The Guardian. In reality the issue I was complaining about had nothing to do with race and it hadn’t even entered my mind. I’m noticing this kind of “White Knight” type of behaviour happening more and more often now and that’s why society is become so polarised. Sorry to go slightly off course, but it’s the same kind of scenario. You don't sound like you like your best mate all that much" I didn’t think that at all . It sounds like his best mate had the best intentions for him , but got it wrong by assuming he was saying the right thing , but wasn’t . Assumption , the mother of all mistakes .... | |||
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"This is exactly my point , and the reason I started this thread ." Oh, good. Well, if anything like that ever happens in here, you’ll have a reason to post this thread. In the meantime, you don’t, and your desperate attempts to link people’s posts back to your experience is embarrassing. | |||
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"I think it depends on context. As a disabled person, it pisses me off sometimes when able-bodied people speak out for me without knowing the first thing about me and my problems. However, support is always welcome, but when I ask for it and with knowledge of the situation. 1 billion % agree with every sentiment and word of this paragraph. Now watch all the, self appointed do gooders deliberately misquote and misuse what you have said. Hang on. Are you saying 'speak out for me' or speak out for disabled people? Because there's a huge difference. Unless you are suffering from a unique condition that nobody else has ever experienced then there will be others who have both knowledge and experience of the subject. Cancer specialists may not have ever had the condition themselves but are you saying they cannot speak on the subject? I have a Good enough knowledge of dementia and the effects on both those living with it and their families. Are you seriously saying I am not able to speak out on the subject, offer advice and opinion and challenge misinformation and factually incorrect statements? Or would I be pissing off those with the condition because I don't personally have it? A Dementia is a very different disability to mine, I would imagine that many people affected are not able to speak out for themselves to varying degrees. In my own case, I'm perfectly capable of speaking for myself as are most physically disabled people. Mental disabilities are a separate issue in this regard. There are no physically disabled people working in my office. When it was refit a few years ago I was one of a few people who argued that the office should be more accessible and now anyone using a whelchair could comfortably work here. That in no way benefited me. Was I interfering in raising this? Oh and similarly there are now hearing aid loops in some of the public parts of the building. I'm not deaf, should I not have asked for these? I don;t understand the notion that you donlt want support just becuase you can speak up for yourself? I'm sure the physically disabled people who don't work in your office are very grateful that they potentially could - perhaps you should go and tell some that they would be better off working there? Not everybody needs their hand being held throughout their life."Who knew losing a foot meant you had to be so dismissive of everything that people have to say. I never knew empathy and compassion could be amputated to be replaced with such negativity. I'm saying this whilst having two feet, that's not an offence last I checked, so I'm good. 
Bickering and rebutting over utter bs some people should try supporting others sometimes, rather than living so bigoted and secluded.  | |||
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"I suppose I’m part of the B community and actually I couldn’t care less cos I don’t ram my sexuality down anyone’s throat anyway. Said the actress to the bishop...
Haha!
From my perspective , it’s more likely to be the bishop ramming his sexuality down the actresses throat , but by saying this I’ve no doubt I’ll be accused of being phobic or anti someone for saying so "a clear anti-bishop remark. You’re assuming the bishop was male!  | |||
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"This is exactly my point , and the reason I started this thread . Oh, good. Well, if anything like that ever happens in here, you’ll have a reason to post this thread. In the meantime, you don’t, and your desperate attempts to link people’s posts back to your experience is embarrassing." As hard as you may try , I’m not going to allow myself to sink to the level of sniping that you do on every post I make . I’m sure there must be far more important things for you to do than ghost me on these forums , but if it gives you some sense of gratification to do so , by all means carry on . | |||
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"I don’t really have any thoughts on lgbtq. But one thing that does my head in is when people get offended on my behalf when it’s things to do with race and culture. Absolutely hate it when people try and take the moral high ground over something minor, make incorrect assumptions, and inflame situations to makes things 10 times worse. For example, I was telling my best mate (white) about some troubles I was having on a project. He thinks he’s really liberal and responded with “ah, those disgusting old white men again”. And he was being 100% serious. He then proceeded to tell me about institutionalised racism and rattled off some shit he’d obviously read in The Guardian. In reality the issue I was complaining about had nothing to do with race and it hadn’t even entered my mind. I’m noticing this kind of “White Knight” type of behaviour happening more and more often now and that’s why society is become so polarised. Sorry to go slightly off course, but it’s the same kind of scenario. You don't sound like you like your best mate all that much I didn’t think that at all . It sounds like his best mate had the best intentions for him , but got it wrong by assuming he was saying the right thing , but wasn’t . Assumption , the mother of all mistakes ...." I think we both know you;d never knowingly agree with me 
And fair enough, but personally I;m not sure why anyone would criticise their best mate "for thinking they are really liberal" but like you say we are all different | |||
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"I suppose I’m part of the B community and actually I couldn’t care less cos I don’t ram my sexuality down anyone’s throat anyway. Said the actress to the bishop...
Haha!
From my perspective , it’s more likely to be the bishop ramming his sexuality down the actresses throat , but by saying this I’ve no doubt I’ll be accused of being phobic or anti someone for saying so a clear anti-bishop remark. You’re assuming the bishop was male! " | |||
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"I don’t really have any thoughts on lgbtq. But one thing that does my head in is when people get offended on my behalf when it’s things to do with race and culture. Absolutely hate it when people try and take the moral high ground over something minor, make incorrect assumptions, and inflame situations to makes things 10 times worse. For example, I was telling my best mate (white) about some troubles I was having on a project. He thinks he’s really liberal and responded with “ah, those disgusting old white men again”. And he was being 100% serious. He then proceeded to tell me about institutionalised racism and rattled off some shit he’d obviously read in The Guardian. In reality the issue I was complaining about had nothing to do with race and it hadn’t even entered my mind. I’m noticing this kind of “White Knight” type of behaviour happening more and more often now and that’s why society is become so polarised. Sorry to go slightly off course, but it’s the same kind of scenario. You don't sound like you like your best mate all that much I didn’t think that at all . It sounds like his best mate had the best intentions for him , but got it wrong by assuming he was saying the right thing , but wasn’t . Assumption , the mother of all mistakes .... I think we both know you;d never knowingly agree with me
And fair enough, but personally I;m not sure why anyone would criticise their best mate "for thinking they are really liberal" but like you say we are all different"You wouldn’t know why someone would criticise their friend for that because you haven’t experienced that kind of situation repeatedly throughout your life. That’s the whole point of this thread isn’t it? And one anecdote doesn’t illustrate 25yrs of friendship. | |||
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"As hard as you may try , I’m not going to allow myself to sink to the level of sniping that you do on every post I make ." 1) I’m not trying to do anything other than help you realise how weak your grasp of reality is. 2) Case in point: I demonstrably and easily verifiably not responded to every post you have made. But, we already know that you don’t like facts getting in the way of your posts, so why would you stop now? "I’m sure there must be far more important things for you to do than ghost me on these forums , but if it gives you some sense of gratification to do so , by all means carry on . "Much like your abject failure to understand my ‘giggling’ post earlier (and it was pretty simple to follow...) that’s not what’s going on here. Also, it’s ironic, given that it’s easy to see which of the two of us spends more time on here. | |||
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"I don’t really have any thoughts on lgbtq. But one thing that does my head in is when people get offended on my behalf when it’s things to do with race and culture. Absolutely hate it when people try and take the moral high ground over something minor, make incorrect assumptions, and inflame situations to makes things 10 times worse. For example, I was telling my best mate (white) about some troubles I was having on a project. He thinks he’s really liberal and responded with “ah, those disgusting old white men again”. And he was being 100% serious. He then proceeded to tell me about institutionalised racism and rattled off some shit he’d obviously read in The Guardian. In reality the issue I was complaining about had nothing to do with race and it hadn’t even entered my mind. I’m noticing this kind of “White Knight” type of behaviour happening more and more often now and that’s why society is become so polarised. Sorry to go slightly off course, but it’s the same kind of scenario. " Boy, can I relate to this! My white friends are mostly trade unionist and see every kind of ism where none is. I'm London born and bred, making a move out of London this year. I was told to rent first to check for racist neighbours as everyone north of the Watford Gap was a card carrying racist...apparently. Apparently I should look around diverse cities like Birmingham. When I said the other half (white) didn't want to go to Birmingham because of the high Asian community, they were aghast and questioned why I was with such a racist. When I said it had nothing to do with race but business, they refused to recognise Asian communities tend to be "exclusive". As a self employed heating engineer plumber he'd struggle for work. In "closed" communities they're not going to pay a stranger market rates when family and friends do it for nothing/reduced prices: he would struggle to compete. I should ditch him apparently. | |||
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"It’s not about getting “ most of the forum “ to either agree or disagree with you and changing your stance and opinion depending on which will garner the most support people’s opinions are their opinions and right or wrong they should stand by them. If you have a opinion or belief then have the conviction to stand by it don’t backtrack and Changing tak because others don’t agree you end up looking foolish. Just because the majority think something doesn’t mean it’s right. going back to the original post maybe the majority of the people you claim to hand spoken to don’t want others to stand up for them but that doesn’t make it right not to.I would rather stand up for a group that only 1 person wanted support and risk upsetting the rest than do nothing at all , why ? Because that’s my conscience and my way but that not to say that’s right or wrong. You seem to have a bit of a issue with thinking that lots of agreement means something must be right and also over generalisation. Everyone is different and just because you are part of one demographic doesn’t mean you share the same personality and beliefs with the rest of that demographic. I can say that in all honesty I have never changed my tak to garner support from other forum users in the entire eight years on fab . I change it purely because things that get said may help me see things differently . And if that makes me look foolish I really don’t mind . It really doesn’t bother me whether people support or don’t support my opinion , but what bothers me is intransigence . It would be a pretty sorry state of affairs if everyone adopted the attitude that they would never consider changing their opinions on anything don’t you think ? Look at your last sentence again , and apply the same thinking to yourself . It’s just as applicable I think . " | |||
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"As hard as you may try , I’m not going to allow myself to sink to the level of sniping that you do on every post I make .1) I’m not trying to do anything other than help you realise how weak your grasp of reality is. 2) Case in point: I demonstrably and easily verifiably not responded to every post you have made. But, we already know that you don’t like facts getting in the way of your posts, so why would you stop now? I’m sure there must be far more important things for you to do than ghost me on these forums , but if it gives you some sense of gratification to do so , by all means carry on . Much like your abject failure to understand my ‘giggling’ post earlier (and it was pretty simple to follow...) that’s not what’s going on here. Also, it’s ironic, given that it’s easy to see which of the two of us spends more time on here."We're all really lucky that you help us understand our own minds and point out our failures. | |||
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"As hard as you may try , I’m not going to allow myself to sink to the level of sniping that you do on every post I make .1) I’m not trying to do anything other than help you realise how weak your grasp of reality is. 2) Case in point: I demonstrably and easily verifiably not responded to every post you have made. But, we already know that you don’t like facts getting in the way of your posts, so why would you stop now? I’m sure there must be far more important things for you to do than ghost me on these forums , but if it gives you some sense of gratification to do so , by all means carry on . Much like your abject failure to understand my ‘giggling’ post earlier (and it was pretty simple to follow...) that’s not what’s going on here. Also, it’s ironic, given that it’s easy to see which of the two of us spends more time on here."If in order to become aware of reality I have to become the same as yourself , I’d far rather stay as I am , having as you put it , a weak grasp of reality . I’m happy with that . I find your constant attempts to suggest that I’m not intelligent enough to understand your posts extremely rude and insulting , and as to who spends more time on here ? That’s completely irrelevant and yet another attempt by you to further goad , rile and insult me . There has been some really interesting discussion on here , sadly you’ve added nothing with your constant attempts to belittle me . | |||
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"I would like to share a true story with anyone who stumbles across this thread, whether you’ve done so today, or years from now. I will never forget the 1st trans person I met, I was 22 years old, doing something menial for a living. He was an 18 year old who had just arrived in the city of Oxford. A bright young boy who had just joined the prestigious Oxford University; his whole life ahead of him. Over the following 3 years I saw this intelligent, kind, shy, insecure boy flourish into an intelligent, kind, outgoing and confident young woman. She graduated from Oxford and was now ready to open her wings and fly away from the welcoming and inclusive world that her College offered her, eager to be a contributing member of society. To live her life and conquer the world in her own way. We lost contact straight after that as we weren’t exactly besties; I knew her through work. She killed herself 2 years ago. The reason behind that was not because she was a snowflake, it was not because she was prat or an unstable person who refused to accept biology, or any reason that would in any way assign blame to her, even if she took her own life. It was the constant passive transphobia bombardment she faced on her day to day, bit by bit eating her soul away. The isolation. From the news reporter, the barista, the hospital nurse, the movie actor/actress, the bouncer, the ticket salesman, the singer, etc, who innocently, or ignorantly, made her feel like there was something wrong with her, like she was different. Like she didn’t deserve the same respect and treatment as anyone of the millions of people walking the streets on any given day. Her name was A. Now take 2 seconds of your life and really let that sink in. In case that doesn’t quite do it, look around you, to the people you hold most dear in your life. The ones life would just wouldn’t quite be the same without. How do you know, with absolute certainty, that they are not A? What or how much of your wellbeing do you have to sacrifice to use language that is inclusive, to view every person as your equal? We, as human beings, all have a duty to speak up in the face of bigotry in any way it manifests itself. Not a right; a duty. Your gender, race, religious view, age, height, appendage or indeed bra size bear no bearing in your right to speak up. Especially when your right to speak up is being questioned. Not because you need to stand up for someone else but because it is the right thing to do. " | |||
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"I suppose I’m part of the B community and actually I couldn’t care less cos I don’t ram my sexuality down anyone’s throat anyway. Said the actress to the bishop...
Haha!
From my perspective , it’s more likely to be the bishop ramming his sexuality down the actresses throat , but by saying this I’ve no doubt I’ll be accused of being phobic or anti someone for saying so a clear anti-bishop remark. You’re assuming the bishop was male! "bishops do it diagonally | |||
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"At what point exactly did it become the case that people can only speak up about issue that directly relate to them? Do I have to be a card carrying member of a specific part of society to know and recognise when someone is being hypocritical, racist, bigoted or descriminatory? People throw around the terms 'snowflake' or 'taking offence for others' when all they're trying to do is dismiss the arguments against themselves generally. This to a large degree. If I see something and it's wrong in my understanding, then i'll decide what action to take. I don't have to have been assaulted to know people shouldn't be assaulted. I absolutely agree with acknowledging the difference between right and wrong . I’m not asking anyone not to do this . But some from the lgbtq community have said they are perfectly happy to fight their own battles , some have said they don’t mind support , but only if the people supporting them know them well enough to do so . Some have also said they do appreciate the support whatever . But surely first we have to ascertain whether there’s been any wrong doing in the first place . And I really don’t think there has . Maybe I’ve been a bit naive with the ‘boys having periods ‘ thread , and I’ve allowed my better judgement to be clouded by a headline . But ones things for sure , I won’t have been the only one to think the way I did , not by a long shot . So my thread will have hopefully opened other peoples eyes to the intricacies of this delicate subject . As for the nhs funding trans fertility issues , it was resounding no from the forum overall . Just as it was for anyone else too as the nhs can’t afford it . Yet I was once again pilloried by a select few fir starting the thread , and supposedly having an anti trans stance . The news article I quoted was from the BBC and was entitled ‘ Should the NHS pay for transgender fertility treatment ‘ . Yet I had a couple of posters who insisted I was asking a loaded question by using the word transgender in my original question ! Yes , you read this correctly , it was the BBC news article that was worded this way , and I merely quoted it , but they figured I should have censored it by removing a word . It’s this kind of nonsense that winds me up ." That seems a gross misrepresentation of the discussion. No-one suggested you should have censored anything. The story, as I understood it, was to do with the freezing/storage of sperm/eggs, rather than IVF treatment. You expanded the discussion to include IVF, and I wondered why with IVF the focus remained solely on the trans community. With the ‘boys have periods” story you mention your view being “clouded by the headline”, yet you omitted the part of the headline mentioned the trans context, which seemed like a cynical and deliberate attempt to sensationalise and twist the story into something more absurd than it really would. It also seemed reasonable to think you had read the article. In which case it should have been clear the story wasn’t simply saying that “boys have periods”. And the there’s this thread. Despite talking about wanting healthy debate, you then went on to start this thread to complain that people, well, took part in that debate. | |||
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"At what point exactly did it become the case that people can only speak up about issue that directly relate to them? Do I have to be a card carrying member of a specific part of society to know and recognise when someone is being hypocritical, racist, bigoted or descriminatory? People throw around the terms 'snowflake' or 'taking offence for others' when all they're trying to do is dismiss the arguments against themselves generally. This to a large degree. If I see something and it's wrong in my understanding, then i'll decide what action to take. I don't have to have been assaulted to know people shouldn't be assaulted. I absolutely agree with acknowledging the difference between right and wrong . I’m not asking anyone not to do this . But some from the lgbtq community have said they are perfectly happy to fight their own battles , some have said they don’t mind support , but only if the people supporting them know them well enough to do so . Some have also said they do appreciate the support whatever . But surely first we have to ascertain whether there’s been any wrong doing in the first place . And I really don’t think there has . Maybe I’ve been a bit naive with the ‘boys having periods ‘ thread , and I’ve allowed my better judgement to be clouded by a headline . But ones things for sure , I won’t have been the only one to think the way I did , not by a long shot . So my thread will have hopefully opened other peoples eyes to the intricacies of this delicate subject . As for the nhs funding trans fertility issues , it was resounding no from the forum overall . Just as it was for anyone else too as the nhs can’t afford it . Yet I was once again pilloried by a select few fir starting the thread , and supposedly having an anti trans stance . The news article I quoted was from the BBC and was entitled ‘ Should the NHS pay for transgender fertility treatment ‘ . Yet I had a couple of posters who insisted I was asking a loaded question by using the word transgender in my original question ! Yes , you read this correctly , it was the BBC news article that was worded this way , and I merely quoted it , but they figured I should have censored it by removing a word . It’s this kind of nonsense that winds me up . That seems a gross misrepresentation of the discussion. No-one suggested you should have censored anything. The story, as I understood it, was to do with the freezing/storage of sperm/eggs, rather than IVF treatment. You expanded the discussion to include IVF, and I wondered why with IVF the focus remained solely on the trans community. With the ‘boys have periods” story you mention your view being “clouded by the headline”, yet you omitted the part of the headline mentioned the trans context, which seemed like a cynical and deliberate attempt to sensationalise and twist the story into something more absurd than it really would. It also seemed reasonable to think you had read the article. In which case it should have been clear the story wasn’t simply saying that “boys have periods”. And the there’s this thread. Despite talking about wanting healthy debate, you then went on to start this thread to complain that people, well, took part in that debate." I tend not to pay that much attention to the OPs threads but am more than a little amused that the 2 threads were based on headlines with the OP having not even read the story coming only a handful of posts after the OP defending his intelligence to discuss these topics and bemoaned people belittlung him. 
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"As for the nhs funding trans fertility issues , it was resounding no from the forum overall . Just as it was for anyone else too as the nhs can’t afford it . Yet I was once again pilloried by a select few fir starting the thread , and supposedly having an anti trans stance ." Again, no. People were making the point that if IVF is available, then it should be available to all equally. Rather than not being available to the trans community specifically. | |||
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"Also not convinced by the stuff about needing to know someone’s situation before sticking up for them. You make it sound like there was an altercation in a coffee shop, and someone patronisingly tried to help out without being asked. Which is a million miles away from what that was - a general discussion on an Internet forum. As has been pointed out above, people don’t need to have had direct experience of something to have a view on it. I can post Caitlin’s article again if you like?" Yes please, I missed it x | |||
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"This is a question for the LGBQT community . ( But if you’re one of the group of straight people who continually slate me on my posts , please feel free to vent at me again on this one too ! ) Do you feel happy about the straight people who love to take offense on your behalf , or would you feel happier to fight your own battles ? Are you actually offended by the same things as the straight folk who revel in ‘doing the right thing’ ,by speaking out for you . The reason I ask is a recent thread I posted caused an outcry from half a dozen people who weren’t part of the LGBQT community , having a go at me , and yet on the entire thread , not one person from the LGBQT community had a bad word to say about the thread or me . It’s certainly a strange one for me as we’ve met and enjoyed the company of loads from the LGBQT community over the years . And yet here I am being slated for being anti trans ! If people only spoke up for "their own" I'd be working the plantations and saying yes sir, massa (master)! That said, whilst this isn't about race I do find it baffling some white people get upset/offended on *my* behalf, where no offense was implied/intended...and I've not been offended." I don’t think it’s necessary about taking offence on any individual’s behalf though. For the sake of the argument, take the example of ‘blacking up’ in theatre like the Black and White Minstrels back in the day. It would probably be my view that that shouldn’t happen now. If I saw it somewhere, or saw a discussion on it, I might express that view. But it would be my view, rather than taking offence on anyone’s behalf. Clearly you may or may not be offended by it, but your view as an individual has no bearing on my view about it. Or, put another way, would you be baffled if I said I found racism offensive? | |||
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"Also not convinced by the stuff about needing to know someone’s situation before sticking up for them. You make it sound like there was an altercation in a coffee shop, and someone patronisingly tried to help out without being asked. Which is a million miles away from what that was - a general discussion on an Internet forum. As has been pointed out above, people don’t need to have had direct experience of something to have a view on it. I can post Caitlin’s article again if you like? Yes please, I missed it x" Here you go. It’s more about the wealthy “standing up” for the poor, but the principle is the same, it that you don’t have to experience for a situation to have empathy for that situation. Caitlin Moran should possibly be in charge. “You know how this goes. Bono, or Russell Brand, or Emma Thompson, or Charlotte Church, speak out in defence of welfare, or the working poor, and are immediately derided as “champagne socialists” by the professionally snide. The denouncing of champagne socialists always follows a strict format – mentioning the price of the house the champagne socialist lives in, their income/net worth, whether or not they went to public school, if their children do, and accompanying it with a picture of the champagne socialist either dressed up to the nines on a red carpet (how can they attend a movie premiere when the poor cannot attend a movie premiere!) or looking angry and shouting at a demonstration. (This person is crazed with socialism! Look at them snarl! Socialism is the ultimate Bitchy Resting Face! You will need Botox now, for sure!) The demented logic seems to be as follows: that you cannot stand up for the poor unless you are poor yourself. That if you have managed to accrue any wealth and security, unless you have subsequently given away every penny of it to charities for the poor, you are a hypocrite to speak about the poor. Only the poor can speak about, and for, the poor. So, if you are a real socialist, you must yourself stay poor for ever. Of course, there are several, very obvious, logical flaws in this argument. The first is a fundamental misunderstanding of socialism. There are many misunderstandings about what a socialist is: primarily that it’s someone who wears a donkey jacket and lives by a brazier, possibly in 1979, and listens only to Billy Bragg. Well, I know loads of socialists like this, and they’re ace. They get shit done. But that’s not socialism. That’s people. People who like old coats and Billy Bragg. Socialism is just a single, simple sentence: the belief that the necessities for the functioning of a society should be provided without profit. So that’s health, education, welfare, transport, the emergency services, the prison service and the justice system, paid for by taxation, and available to everyone, regardless of wealth. No paying Serco millions for running overcrowded jails. No G4S – the guys who fucked up the Olympics – still being paid by the government, despite being investigated by the serious fraud office for massively overcharging. There’s nothing in socialism that prevents Charlotte Church from living in a nice house, walking a red carpet and, after paying her taxes, earning millions a year. If she were a champagne anarchic communist, who believed that all property is theft, and that money should be abolished, then she would be a hypocrite. Champagne socialists, on the other hand, are people who could personally pay for an open return standard ticket to Manchester that costs £329 since privatisation, but recognise that other people can’t, and are suggesting that, maybe, society would function better if rail travel were cheaper, so everyone could use it. What people who denounce champagne socialists are doing is, essentially, trying to shame people who have empathy. Now, that’s a bad day down the opinion mines in anyone’s book.“ | |||
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"Well, it seems that if you're LGBT, black, brown, disabled - whatever, some people will "speak out" for you with no real knowledge of your individual situation and without caring whether they do more harm than good. As long as they can smugly virtue-signal how wonderful they are on social media, that's all they seem to care about. Taken to task, they will always pathetically bleat "I was only trying to help" when all they are doing is trying to help themselves look and feel better about their own inadequacies. It's no wonder that so many individuals in the above groups feel so isolated." Honestly I'd rather be thought of as all of those things and more than live with the anger and bitterness sone on here seem to carry around with them You cannot seriously believe that minorities feel isolated because of people who defend them rather than those who demonise them? | |||
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"Well, it seems that if you're LGBT, black, brown, disabled - whatever, some people will "speak out" for you with no real knowledge of your individual situation and without caring whether they do more harm than good. As long as they can smugly virtue-signal how wonderful they are on social media, that's all they seem to care about. Taken to task, they will always pathetically bleat "I was only trying to help" when all they are doing is trying to help themselves look and feel better about their own inadequacies. It's no wonder that so many individuals in the above groups feel so isolated. Honestly I'd rather be thought of as all of those things and more than live with the anger and bitterness sone on here seem to carry around with them You cannot seriously believe that minorities feel isolated because of people who defend them rather than those who demonise them?" That's a very good point. | |||
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"Well, it seems that if you're LGBT, black, brown, disabled - whatever, some people will "speak out" for you with no real knowledge of your individual situation and without caring whether they do more harm than good. As long as they can smugly virtue-signal how wonderful they are on social media, that's all they seem to care about. Taken to task, they will always pathetically bleat "I was only trying to help" when all they are doing is trying to help themselves look and feel better about their own inadequacies. It's no wonder that so many individuals in the above groups feel so isolated. Honestly I'd rather be thought of as all of those things and more than live with the anger and bitterness sone on here seem to carry around with them You cannot seriously believe that minorities feel isolated because of people who defend them rather than those who demonise them?" I specified "individual situation", but you chose to ignore that and virtue signal how wonderful you are in your first paragraph. You are a perfect case in point, arrogant enough to believe you're doing good but without the humility to believe you may be doing harm. | |||
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"Well, it seems that if you're LGBT, black, brown, disabled - whatever, some people will "speak out" for you with no real knowledge of your individual situation and without caring whether they do more harm than good. As long as they can smugly virtue-signal how wonderful they are on social media, that's all they seem to care about. Taken to task, they will always pathetically bleat "I was only trying to help" when all they are doing is trying to help themselves look and feel better about their own inadequacies. It's no wonder that so many individuals in the above groups feel so isolated." Sounds like a load of horse shit to me. I'm sure there are individuals who 'do' social justice activism less than ideally, who are patronising or inappropriate. But the idea that this is so common that it leads to people who are minorities feeling isolated sounds like just another one of the fairy tales that right wing people love to spin to distract from the reality of everyday prejudices in the world. (also see - 'the demise of free speech' for another bullshit right wing talking point designed to do this) | |||
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""Well, it seems that if you're LGBT, black, brown, disabled - whatever, some people will "speak out" for you with no real knowledge of your individual situation and without caring whether they do more harm than good. As long as they can smugly virtue-signal how wonderful they are on social media, that's all they seem to care about. Taken to task, they will always pathetically bleat "I was only trying to help" when all they are doing is trying to help themselves look and feel better about their own inadequacies. It's no wonder that so many individuals in the above groups feel so isolated." Sounds like a load of horse shit to me. I'm sure there are individuals who 'do' social justice activism less than ideally, who are patronising or inappropriate. But the idea that this is so common that it leads to people who are minorities feeling isolated sounds like just another one of the fairy tales that right wing people love to spin to distract from the reality of everyday prejudices in the world. (also see - 'the demise of free speech' for another bullshit right wing talking point designed to do this)" And again, another arrogant "do-gooder" spouting off without having the first clue about the problems of individuals and only interested in how displaying fake empathy makes them look virtuous. | |||
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"I suppose I’m part of the B community and actually I couldn’t care less cos I don’t ram my sexuality down anyone’s throat anyway. " I totally agree with you. Being attracted to any kind of gender there is no need to adopt any kind of sexual minority status. Some members of the LGBQT+ community, especially the activists have adopted very authoritarian practices. They want every same-sex attracted person to reveal publicly their attractions and aquire a sexual minority status. And they feel envy and resentment for those who enjoy a "heterosexual privilege" and enjoy same-sex sexuality. They try to intervene to peoples lives and tell them what to do. According to them, every same-sex attracted person, should be "out and proud" | |||
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