FabSwingers.com > Forums > The Lounge > Pro choice vs. Pro Life

Pro choice vs. Pro Life

By (user no longer on site) OP over a year ago

I've heard an interesting ProLife argument the other day and was wondering what other people think of it.

Just to be clear I'm not aligning myself with either side.

The argument was a scenario,

Your dad has been in a car crash accident and was admitted to the hospital, he is in a comma but the Doctors let you know he will regain consciousness after a period of 9 months. However he will lose all of his memories with no chance of ever gaining them back. As a result the doctors are allowing you to make the choice and pulling the plug so to speak (euthanasia). What do you do?

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By (user no longer on site) over a year ago

So he’ll be totally ok apart from the memory?

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By (user no longer on site) OP over a year ago

"So he’ll be totally ok apart from the memory?"

Yes, but then again you must keep in mind, he will lose all of his memory, he won't know who he is either, no self identity.

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By (user no longer on site) over a year ago

When you talk of pro life... Are you on about anti abortionists? It is hard to tell from that scenario, I think, as it doesn't really correlate at all

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By *SAchickWoman over a year ago

Hillside desolate

I don't think that's a very effective pro life argument, but of course I wouldn't pull the plug, who would?

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By (user no longer on site) over a year ago

"When you talk of pro life... Are you on about anti abortionists? It is hard to tell from that scenario, I think, as it doesn't really correlate at all

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By *bi HaiveMan over a year ago
Forum Mod

Cheeseville, Somerset

"I've heard an interesting ProLife argument the other day and was wondering what other people think of it.

Just to be clear I'm not aligning myself with either side.

The argument was a scenario,

Sorry. I don't understand the comparison.

Maybe I'm being thick?

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By (user no longer on site) over a year ago

"I've heard an interesting ProLife argument the other day and was wondering what other people think of it.

Just to be clear I'm not aligning myself with either side.

The argument was a scenario,

As someone who has experienced something very very similar and continues to live through it nearly 3 years on I'd pull the plug

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By (user no longer on site) over a year ago

"So he’ll be totally ok apart from the memory?

Yes, but then again you must keep in mind, he will lose all of his memory, he won't know who he is either, no self identity."

No. I wouldn’t pull the plug then. Definitely not.

If he was left with no dignity and life then yes I would if I had the choice because I know that’s his worst fear.

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By (user no longer on site) OP over a year ago

"When you talk of pro life... Are you on about anti abortionists? It is hard to tell from that scenario, I think, as it doesn't really correlate at all

Pro Life vs. Pro choice does relate to abortions if that's what you're asking.

Whether the scenario doesn't correlate it could be argued, but that's not the point of the thread as it would lead into an endless argument over every minor detail.

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By *allySlinkyWoman over a year ago

Leeds

If you had no memory you wouldn't know where your house was when you had been out or how to make a cup of tea etc

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By (user no longer on site) OP over a year ago

Your dad would be able to continue living as normal after waking up, he would just have to relearn everything and make new memories of course, basically start a new life in other words.

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By (user no longer on site) over a year ago

Why would you pull the plug on him.. Just because he won't remember you? Dont think that scenario would ever happen.

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By (user no longer on site) OP over a year ago

"If you had no memory you wouldn't know where your house was when you had been out or how to make a cup of tea etc"

That is correct.

(Side Note)

Also please leave the discussion in the thread, no need for PM's.

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By (user no longer on site) over a year ago

Any man's, or woman's death diminishes the world....who knows what they may have become given the opportunity....

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By *rownboy30Man over a year ago

Birmingham

If he loses his memories, can he make new ones? If so the answer is don’t pull the plug, relive his life and the best part is you can help him not make the mistakes he’s regretted in the past. Sounds like a chance at a second life.

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By *allySlinkyWoman over a year ago

Leeds

"If you had no memory you wouldn't know where your house was when you had been out or how to make a cup of tea etc

That is correct.

(Side Note)

Also please leave the discussion in the thread, no need for PM's."

I have never sent you a PM

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By (user no longer on site) over a year ago

I wouldn't like to say, unless you've been in that situation who knows. Theres no wrong or right, just what works in the best interests of the person affected.

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By (user no longer on site) over a year ago

With my last partner I had a living will arrangement.

In any case should I be in such a position where I am in a vegetative state with slim chance of recovery and any recovery in which I am severely impaired be it memories or physical function ie quadriplegic that no efforts are to be made to sustain my life.

I do not wish to lose my identity or quality of life or to impose myself on others quality of life in order for them to care for me. Whether they wish to or not. I do not want to be a burden to anyone.

I suggest a living will to anyone make sure what you want is done with control of someone you trust to carry out your wishes. Be it in this scenario to end the life or to continue it.

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By (user no longer on site) OP over a year ago

"If you had no memory you wouldn't know where your house was when you had been out or how to make a cup of tea etc

That is correct.

(Side Note)

Also please leave the discussion in the thread, no need for PM's.

I have never sent you a PM"

It was a side note, not addressed at you, apologies for the confusion

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By *bi HaiveMan over a year ago
Forum Mod

Cheeseville, Somerset

"When you talk of pro life... Are you on about anti abortionists? It is hard to tell from that scenario, I think, as it doesn't really correlate at all

Pro Life vs. Pro choice does relate to abortions if that's what you're asking.

Whether the scenario doesn't correlate it could be argued, but that's not the point of the thread as it would lead into an endless argument over every minor detail."

Taking any comparison with abortion out of the equation (because I see no similarity) then I'd not pull the plug.

Memories are important, yes, but it's perfectly possible to lead a fulfilling life and relearn things - it happens to both stroke victims and those living with dementia.

If there was no chance of any quality of life and dignity then I'd pull the plug - as I hope somebody will be able to for me in the future should the need arise.

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By (user no longer on site) OP over a year ago

"When you talk of pro life... Are you on about anti abortionists? It is hard to tell from that scenario, I think, as it doesn't really correlate at all

Pro Life vs. Pro choice does relate to abortions if that's what you're asking.

Whether the scenario doesn't correlate it could be argued, but that's not the point of the thread as it would lead into an endless argument over every minor detail.

Taking any comparison with abortion out of the equation (because I see no similarity) then I'd not pull the plug.

Memories are important, yes, but it's perfectly possible to lead a fulfilling life and relearn things - it happens to both stroke victims and those living with dementia.

If there was no chance of any quality of life and dignity then I'd pull the plug - as I hope somebody will be able to for me in the future should the need arise.

If you don't see the similarity between abortion and this scenario, you are really trying to not to see it or don't want to.

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By *bi HaiveMan over a year ago
Forum Mod

Cheeseville, Somerset

"When you talk of pro life... Are you on about anti abortionists? It is hard to tell from that scenario, I think, as it doesn't really correlate at all

Pro Life vs. Pro choice does relate to abortions if that's what you're asking.

Whether the scenario doesn't correlate it could be argued, but that's not the point of the thread as it would lead into an endless argument over every minor detail.

Taking any comparison with abortion out of the equation (because I see no similarity) then I'd not pull the plug.

Memories are important, yes, but it's perfectly possible to lead a fulfilling life and relearn things - it happens to both stroke victims and those living with dementia.

If there was no chance of any quality of life and dignity then I'd pull the plug - as I hope somebody will be able to for me in the future should the need arise.

If you don't see the similarity between abortion and this scenario, you are really trying to not to see it or don't want to."

Sorry. I disagree.

One is a bunch of cells that has yet to develop cognitive function and mental capacity. The same as many that do not go on to survive a full term pregnancy.

The other is a person that has lived, breathed, formed relationships (in this case been a parent), functioned as an individual, been capable of rational thought and cognitive functioning and who has through an accident temporarily lost the capacity to do all of those things but for a defined period of time, after which they will return to the previous state minus prior memories.

Vastly different.

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By *cousesubsallyWoman over a year ago

Somewhere out there

"When you talk of pro life... Are you on about anti abortionists? It is hard to tell from that scenario, I think, as it doesn't really correlate at all

Pro Life vs. Pro choice does relate to abortions if that's what you're asking.

Whether the scenario doesn't correlate it could be argued, but that's not the point of the thread as it would lead into an endless argument over every minor detail.

Taking any comparison with abortion out of the equation (because I see no similarity) then I'd not pull the plug.

Memories are important, yes, but it's perfectly possible to lead a fulfilling life and relearn things - it happens to both stroke victims and those living with dementia.

If there was no chance of any quality of life and dignity then I'd pull the plug - as I hope somebody will be able to for me in the future should the need arise.

If you don't see the similarity between abortion and this scenario, you are really trying to not to see it or don't want to.

Sorry. I disagree.

One is a bunch of cells that has yet to develop cognitive function and mental capacity. The same as many that do not go on to survive a full term pregnancy.

Vastly different.

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By *allySlinkyWoman over a year ago

Leeds

If you don't see the similarity between abortion and this scenario, you are really trying to not to see it or don't want to."

There is no similarity. An abortion is of a foetus which has never been outside a woman's stomach. This man has a history and is known and loved by people who have memories of him.

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By (user no longer on site) over a year ago

Pull the plug.

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By *rownboy30Man over a year ago

Birmingham

"Pull the plug."

You’ll also pull every other one in that ward

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By *naswingdressWoman over a year ago

Manchester (she/her)

If pregnancy can continue without forcing the woman to continue it, it might be a vaguely valid comparison. This analogy erases the pregnant woman, her health, and her choice from the equation.

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By (user no longer on site) over a year ago

"Pull the plug.

You’ll also pull every other one in that ward

Only if they wanted me to.

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By *hetalkingstoveMan over a year ago

London

That scenario is not at all a useful way to look at abortion. As others have said, a foetus is not the same as an adult.

Additionally, agreeing to keep someone on life support is not the same as being pregnant.

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By *bi HaiveMan over a year ago
Forum Mod

Cheeseville, Somerset

"If pregnancy can continue without forcing the woman to continue it, it might be a vaguely valid comparison. This analogy erases the pregnant woman, her health, and her choice from the equation. "

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By (user no longer on site) over a year ago

"When you talk of pro life... Are you on about anti abortionists? It is hard to tell from that scenario, I think, as it doesn't really correlate at all

Pro Life vs. Pro choice does relate to abortions if that's what you're asking.

Whether the scenario doesn't correlate it could be argued, but that's not the point of the thread as it would lead into an endless argument over every minor detail."

I know pro life is meant to be about abortion, but if the scenario doesn't correlate then how is it a good example of the pro life argument?! Am I missimg something?! Apart from the point of the thread?

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By (user no longer on site) OP over a year ago

If you don't see the similarity between abortion and this scenario, you are really trying to not to see it or don't want to.

There is no similarity. An abortion is of a foetus which has never been outside a woman's stomach. This man has a history and is known and loved by people who have memories of him. "

So it would be perfectly acceptable to pull the plug on an anti social orphan?

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By *alking DisasterWoman over a year ago

South Oxfordshire

[Removed by poster at 23/12/18 19:19:58]

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By *bonynivoryCouple over a year ago

market harborough

"When you talk of pro life... Are you on about anti abortionists? It is hard to tell from that scenario, I think, as it doesn't really correlate at all

Pro Life vs. Pro choice does relate to abortions if that's what you're asking.

Whether the scenario doesn't correlate it could be argued, but that's not the point of the thread as it would lead into an endless argument over every minor detail.

Taking any comparison with abortion out of the equation (because I see no similarity) then I'd not pull the plug.

Memories are important, yes, but it's perfectly possible to lead a fulfilling life and relearn things - it happens to both stroke victims and those living with dementia.

If there was no chance of any quality of life and dignity then I'd pull the plug - as I hope somebody will be able to for me in the future should the need arise.

If you don't see the similarity between abortion and this scenario, you are really trying to not to see it or don't want to.

Sorry. I disagree.

One is a bunch of cells that has yet to develop cognitive function and mental capacity. The same as many that do not go on to survive a full term pregnancy.

Vastly different.

Agree totally

Mrs

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By *naswingdressWoman over a year ago

Manchester (she/her)

Pulling the plug would involve a host of questions. What resources are being used up? Is it in the interest of the health service (or person paying) to keep that up? What is the labour involved, the risk? For what gain? Once the process is over, what's the prognosis and what cost will be involved in making this person independent again? Is it in everyone's best interests, including the patient?

And then the choice of the person if they made one while competent. Or their next of kin. Or anyone who might have to suffer through any medical procedure or problem related to his coma.

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By *alking DisasterWoman over a year ago

South Oxfordshire

Going to try this one again without adding the personal details.

The scenario you speak of is absolutely nothing like the pro-choice/pro-life debate. A child does not ask to be born.

In this scenario I'd pull the plug. The person coming out of the coma in nine months isn't my father anymore. He also wouldn't want to be dependent on anyone while he "relearns" everything.

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By (user no longer on site) OP over a year ago

"Going to try this one again without adding the personal details.

The scenario you speak of is absolutely nothing like the pro-choice/pro-life debate. A child does not ask to be born.

In this scenario I'd pull the plug. The person coming out of the coma in nine months isn't my father anymore. He also wouldn't want to be dependent on anyone while he "relearns" everything."

So they person isn't your father anymore yet you made the conscious decision to end his life and assumed he wouldn't want to live it? Interesting.

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By (user no longer on site) OP over a year ago

I think a lot of people are hesitant in trying to answer the question and want to distance the scenario from abortion as much as possible.

To me this just shows how similar the example is and how hard it is to simply answer the question.

To answer some of the financial related questions, the father if not accepted by the family would be put in a care home until he becomes independent again, be it 1 year or 18 years.

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By *bonynivoryCouple over a year ago

market harborough

"I think a lot of people are hesitant in trying to answer the question and want to distance the scenario from abortion as much as possible.

To me this just shows how similar the example is and how hard it is to simply answer the question.

To answer some of the financial related questions, the father if not accepted by the family would be put in a care home until he becomes independent again, be it 1 year or 18 years.

I would pull the plug. My decision is based on my knowledge of my father and conversations we have had. In the absence of a living will, I would make a beat interest decision for him.

Mrs

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By *bonynivoryCouple over a year ago

market harborough

"I think a lot of people are hesitant in trying to answer the question and want to distance the scenario from abortion as much as possible.

To me this just shows how similar the example is and how hard it is to simply answer the question.

To answer some of the financial related questions, the father if not accepted by the family would be put in a care home until he becomes independent again, be it 1 year or 18 years.

I would pull the plug. My decision is based on my knowledge of my father and conversations we have had. In the absence of a living will, I would make a beat interest decision for him.

Mrs"

*best

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By (user no longer on site) OP over a year ago

"If pregnancy can continue without forcing the woman to continue it, it might be a vaguely valid comparison. This analogy erases the pregnant woman, her health, and her choice from the equation. "

Pro life argument supports the case of abortion in case of danger to the mothers life.

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By *alking DisasterWoman over a year ago

South Oxfordshire

"Going to try this one again without adding the personal details.

The scenario you speak of is absolutely nothing like the pro-choice/pro-life debate. A child does not ask to be born.

In this scenario I'd pull the plug. The person coming out of the coma in nine months isn't my father anymore. He also wouldn't want to be dependent on anyone while he "relearns" everything.

So they person isn't your father anymore yet you made the conscious decision to end his life and assumed he wouldn't want to live it? Interesting."

Personal situation which goes too close to home.

Don't you dare judge me.

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By *edangel_2013Woman over a year ago

southend

Would I pull the plug on my father? No. Would I have an abortion if the circumstances made it necessary? Yes.

Do I see any correlation between the two? None at all.

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By *rownboy30Man over a year ago

Birmingham

"I think a lot of people are hesitant in trying to answer the question and want to distance the scenario from abortion as much as possible.

To me this just shows how similar the example is and how hard it is to simply answer the question.

To answer some of the financial related questions, the father if not accepted by the family would be put in a care home until he becomes independent again, be it 1 year or 18 years.

Analogies are generally faulty. This one is crackers and no where similar to pro life/choice argument. Who originally made this analogy?

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By (user no longer on site) OP over a year ago

"Going to try this one again without adding the personal details.

The scenario you speak of is absolutely nothing like the pro-choice/pro-life debate. A child does not ask to be born.

In this scenario I'd pull the plug. The person coming out of the coma in nine months isn't my father anymore. He also wouldn't want to be dependent on anyone while he "relearns" everything.

So they person isn't your father anymore yet you made the conscious decision to end his life and assumed he wouldn't want to live it? Interesting.

Personal situation which goes too close to home.

Don't you dare judge me."

I'm not judging you, I find your statement interesting. If this scenario is too personal, the my apologies but it's not my fault and you can't blame me for making my arguments.

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By (user no longer on site) over a year ago

No matter what side of it you come from, the original situation is a specious argument.

"If pregnancy can continue without forcing the woman to continue it, it might be a vaguely valid comparison. This analogy erases the pregnant woman, her health, and her choice from the equation.

Pro life argument supports the case of abortion in case of danger to the mothers life."

Not always.

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By *icecouple561Couple over a year ago
Forum Mod

East Sussex

"Would I pull the plug on my father? No. Would I have an abortion if the circumstances made it necessary? Yes.

Do I see any correlation between the two? None at all. "

Agreed.

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By *ynecplCouple over a year ago

Newcastle upon Tyne

Don't understand the question. If it's about quality of life then obviously no as he can still live a fulfilling life even without the memories of the past.

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By *alking DisasterWoman over a year ago

South Oxfordshire

"Going to try this one again without adding the personal details.

The scenario you speak of is absolutely nothing like the pro-choice/pro-life debate. A child does not ask to be born.

In this scenario I'd pull the plug. The person coming out of the coma in nine months isn't my father anymore. He also wouldn't want to be dependent on anyone while he "relearns" everything.

So they person isn't your father anymore yet you made the conscious decision to end his life and assumed he wouldn't want to live it? Interesting.

Personal situation which goes too close to home.

Don't you dare judge me.

I'm not judging you, I find your statement interesting. If this scenario is too personal, the my apologies but it's not my fault and you can't blame me for making my arguments."

You were judging me and it is your fault.

Delete the thread.

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By *ssex Playfull CoupleCouple over a year ago

Grays

Goodbye pops, we had a good run together x

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By (user no longer on site) OP over a year ago

"Would I pull the plug on my father? No. Would I have an abortion if the circumstances made it necessary? Yes.

Do I see any correlation between the two? None at all.

Agreed.

Here are the similarities;

Both cases are about decision to end/not end a persons life.

Both cases relate to 9 month waiting period.

Both cases include a person with no previous memories.

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By *naswingdressWoman over a year ago

Manchester (she/her)

"If pregnancy can continue without forcing the woman to continue it, it might be a vaguely valid comparison. This analogy erases the pregnant woman, her health, and her choice from the equation.

Pro life argument supports the case of abortion in case of danger to the mothers life."

Some are, but not in the usual risks that come in many pregnancies. Just risk of death. Why should I be shackled to a person I don't know who's leeching my body's resources for at least nine months, with health complications resulting from that in many cases?

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By (user no longer on site) OP over a year ago

"Going to try this one again without adding the personal details.

The scenario you speak of is absolutely nothing like the pro-choice/pro-life debate. A child does not ask to be born.

In this scenario I'd pull the plug. The person coming out of the coma in nine months isn't my father anymore. He also wouldn't want to be dependent on anyone while he "relearns" everything.

So they person isn't your father anymore yet you made the conscious decision to end his life and assumed he wouldn't want to live it? Interesting.

Personal situation which goes too close to home.

Don't you dare judge me.

I'm not judging you, I find your statement interesting. If this scenario is too personal, the my apologies but it's not my fault and you can't blame me for making my arguments.

You were judging me and it is your fault.

Delete the thread."

I have absolutely zero attachment to you as a person and have zero interest in judging you or your decisions.

Just because you chose to attach personal feelings to my thread doesn't make me or the thread a culprit.

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By (user no longer on site) over a year ago

"Would I pull the plug on my father? No. Would I have an abortion if the circumstances made it necessary? Yes.

Do I see any correlation between the two? None at all.

Agreed.

Here are the similarities;

Both cases are about decision to end/not end a persons life.

Both cases relate to 9 month waiting period.

Both cases include a person with no previous memories.

A foetus is not a person

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By *bonynivoryCouple over a year ago

market harborough

"Would I pull the plug on my father? No. Would I have an abortion if the circumstances made it necessary? Yes.

Do I see any correlation between the two? None at all.

Agreed.

Here are the similarities;

Both cases are about decision to end/not end a persons life.

Both cases relate to 9 month waiting period.

Both cases include a person with no previous memories.

A foetus cannot make advance decisions which relate to their medical care. You can't compare the 2.

Mrs

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By (user no longer on site) OP over a year ago

"Would I pull the plug on my father? No. Would I have an abortion if the circumstances made it necessary? Yes.

Do I see any correlation between the two? None at all.

Agreed.

Here are the similarities;

Both cases are about decision to end/not end a persons life.

Both cases relate to 9 month waiting period.

Both cases include a person with no previous memories.

A foetus cannot make advance decisions which relate to their medical care. You can't compare the 2.

Mrs"

Neither can person in a comma.

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By *alking DisasterWoman over a year ago

South Oxfordshire

"Going to try this one again without adding the personal details.

The scenario you speak of is absolutely nothing like the pro-choice/pro-life debate. A child does not ask to be born.

In this scenario I'd pull the plug. The person coming out of the coma in nine months isn't my father anymore. He also wouldn't want to be dependent on anyone while he "relearns" everything.

So they person isn't your father anymore yet you made the conscious decision to end his life and assumed he wouldn't want to live it? Interesting.

Personal situation which goes too close to home.

Don't you dare judge me.

I'm not judging you, I find your statement interesting. If this scenario is too personal, the my apologies but it's not my fault and you can't blame me for making my arguments.

You were judging me and it is your fault.

Delete the thread.

I have absolutely zero attachment to you as a person and have zero interest in judging you or your decisions.

Just because you chose to attach personal feelings to my thread doesn't make me or the thread a culprit."

You judged me as a person as soon as you commented on my reply.

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By (user no longer on site) over a year ago

I'd keep him ticking and convince him that he'd been a cross-dressing ballet dancer all his life and watch with great amusement as he tries to re-learn his former profession.

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By (user no longer on site) over a year ago

Dad has been dead for 30 years, but if it was me, I would want my kids or wife to pull the plug.

Way to old to start learning to eat with a knife and fork.

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By (user no longer on site) OP over a year ago

"Going to try this one again without adding the personal details.

The scenario you speak of is absolutely nothing like the pro-choice/pro-life debate. A child does not ask to be born.

In this scenario I'd pull the plug. The person coming out of the coma in nine months isn't my father anymore. He also wouldn't want to be dependent on anyone while he "relearns" everything.

So they person isn't your father anymore yet you made the conscious decision to end his life and assumed he wouldn't want to live it? Interesting.

Personal situation which goes too close to home.

Don't you dare judge me.

I'm not judging you, I find your statement interesting. If this scenario is too personal, the my apologies but it's not my fault and you can't blame me for making my arguments.

You were judging me and it is your fault.

Delete the thread.

I have absolutely zero attachment to you as a person and have zero interest in judging you or your decisions.

Just because you chose to attach personal feelings to my thread doesn't make me or the thread a culprit.

You judged me as a person as soon as you commented on my reply."

I made an observation, I don't care about you as a person or how you chose to live your life. Do you feel better now?

Just FYI, EVERYONE judges EVERYONE at all times.

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By (user no longer on site) over a year ago

"Would I pull the plug on my father? No. Would I have an abortion if the circumstances made it necessary? Yes.

Do I see any correlation between the two? None at all.

Agreed.

Here are the similarities;

Both cases are about decision to end/not end a persons life.

Both cases relate to 9 month waiting period.

Both cases include a person with no previous memories.

And yet the list of differences will far outweigh that list of similarities

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By *naswingdressWoman over a year ago

Manchester (she/her)

My relatives have made it clear how they wish to be treated if an accident meant they'd never emerge the same person.

I'd respect their wishes and pull the plug.

As for a foetus, all children should be wanted, and there are too many unwanted children already. A woman's choice must be sacrosanct.

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By *bonynivoryCouple over a year ago

market harborough

"Would I pull the plug on my father? No. Would I have an abortion if the circumstances made it necessary? Yes.

Do I see any correlation between the two? None at all.

Agreed.

Here are the similarities;

Both cases are about decision to end/not end a persons life.

Both cases relate to 9 month waiting period.

Both cases include a person with no previous memories.

A foetus cannot make advance decisions which relate to their medical care. You can't compare the 2.

Mrs

Neither can person in a comma."

It's an advance decision. It's made before anything happens to you.

Even if it's not done formally in writing, most of us have had conversations with our family relating to what we would like to happen if something bad was to happen to us. I know for a fact that my father would want me to pull the plug because we have discussed it. Hence advance decision

Mrs

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By (user no longer on site) over a year ago

Why is pro life the opposite of pro choice?

I am pro life and pro choice. Pro life of the pregnant person and pro choice for that person to choose what healthcare they want for their body.

Pro life is the nice term for anti abortionist, anti pregnant person to make their own healthcare choices.

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By *edangel_2013Woman over a year ago

southend

"Here are the similarities;

Both cases are about decision to end/not end a persons life. "

A person I know and love versus a person I have never met, and have no emotional attachment to.

"Both cases relate to 9 month waiting period."

A 9 month period where my Father will be well cared for in a hospital, as opposed to a nine month period that will wreck havoc on my body and possibly kill me.

"Both cases include a person with no previous memories."

A person that will be rehabilitated by professionals with little to no cost of mine, as opposed to a baby that will be financially dependent on me for at least 18 years.

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By *iamondsmiles.Woman over a year ago

little house on the praire

Not in this scenario no. But i did make the decision to turn my dads life support off. Thats why its gòod to know your families thoughts. It was an easy decision for me

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By *icecouple561Couple over a year ago
Forum Mod

East Sussex

"Would I pull the plug on my father? No. Would I have an abortion if the circumstances made it necessary? Yes.

Do I see any correlation between the two? None at all.

Agreed.

Here are the similarities;

Both cases are about decision to end/not end a persons life.

Both cases relate to 9 month waiting period.

Both cases include a person with no previous memories.

Ending a life in one case depends on when "life" begins.

As above re 9 months.

There is no proof that an unborn baby in which recognised life has begun has no memory.

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By (user no longer on site) OP over a year ago

"Would I pull the plug on my father? No. Would I have an abortion if the circumstances made it necessary? Yes.

Do I see any correlation between the two? None at all.

Agreed.

Here are the similarities;

Both cases are about decision to end/not end a persons life.

Both cases relate to 9 month waiting period.

Both cases include a person with no previous memories.

A foetus cannot make advance decisions which relate to their medical care. You can't compare the 2.

Mrs

Neither can person in a comma.

It's an advance decision. It's made before anything happens to you.

Mrs"

Yes but you're adding another variable to the scenario, the father in the scenario has not had this or similar discussion beforehand.

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By (user no longer on site) over a year ago

"Why is pro life the opposite of pro choice?

I am pro life and pro choice. Pro life of the pregnant person and pro choice for that person to choose what healthcare they want for their body.

Pro life is the nice term for anti abortionist, anti pregnant person to make their own healthcare choices."

The problem is they don't care for the life after it has been born. They are pro (forced) birth....after that they couldn't give a fuck what happens. I just don't understand why such people feel they should have some kind of say over what other women do with the contents of their uterus'. Baffles me completely....weirdos

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By *rownboy30Man over a year ago

Birmingham

Here are the similarities;

Both cases are about decision to end/not end a persons life.

Both cases relate to 9 month waiting period.

Both cases include a person with no previous memories

And yet the list of differences will far outweigh that list of similarities "

Too many other facets ignored which are bound to be the case in individual scenarios. When you simply it this much for either case you can logically make your case strong whether it be for or against.

I’m out.

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By *naswingdressWoman over a year ago

Manchester (she/her)

"Why is pro life the opposite of pro choice?

I am pro life and pro choice. Pro life of the pregnant person and pro choice for that person to choose what healthcare they want for their body.

Pro life is the nice term for anti abortionist, anti pregnant person to make their own healthcare choices.

Yes, it's a short sighted and deeply hypocritical position to hold, fundamentally. All or almost all children must be born, but we'll do nothing to make their lives worth living.

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By *affy72Woman over a year ago

Herefordshire

"Would I pull the plug on my father? No. Would I have an abortion if the circumstances made it necessary? Yes.

Do I see any correlation between the two? None at all.

Agreed.

-----------------

Here are the similarities;

Both cases are about decision to end/not end a persons life.

Both cases relate to 9 month waiting period.

Both cases include a person with no previous memories.

-----------

Nine months? A foetus wouldn't be aborted at nine months though. Your timescale needs to be shorter surely?

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By *alking DisasterWoman over a year ago

South Oxfordshire

"Going to try this one again without adding the personal details.

The scenario you speak of is absolutely nothing like the pro-choice/pro-life debate. A child does not ask to be born.

In this scenario I'd pull the plug. The person coming out of the coma in nine months isn't my father anymore. He also wouldn't want to be dependent on anyone while he "relearns" everything.

So they person isn't your father anymore yet you made the conscious decision to end his life and assumed he wouldn't want to live it? Interesting.

Personal situation which goes too close to home.

Don't you dare judge me.

I'm not judging you, I find your statement interesting. If this scenario is too personal, the my apologies but it's not my fault and you can't blame me for making my arguments.

You were judging me and it is your fault.

Delete the thread.

I have absolutely zero attachment to you as a person and have zero interest in judging you or your decisions.

Just because you chose to attach personal feelings to my thread doesn't make me or the thread a culprit.

You judged me as a person as soon as you commented on my reply.

I made an observation, I don't care about you as a person or how you chose to live your life. Do you feel better now?

Just FYI, EVERYONE judges EVERYONE at all times. "

No. It's a personal attack against anyone who doesn't share your views.

I notice you didn't share any "observations" with the poster above who agreed that all life is sacred.

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By (user no longer on site) OP over a year ago

"Here are the similarities;

Both cases are about decision to end/not end a persons life.

A person I know and love versus a person I have never met, and have no emotional attachment to.

So a stranger with a lack of social life holds less value than a person who has a family, correct?

Both cases relate to 9 month waiting period.

A 9 month period where my Father will be well cared for in a hospital, as opposed to a nine month period that will wreck havoc on my body and possibly kill me.

If the pregnancy was to cause a threat to the health or life of the pregnant mother abortion is allowed.

Both cases include a person with no previous memories.

A person that will be rehabilitated by professionals with little to no cost of mine, as opposed to a baby that will be financially dependent on me for at least 18 years.

The baby can be put into adoption services with no cost to you and 100% anonymity"

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By *bonynivoryCouple over a year ago

market harborough

"Would I pull the plug on my father? No. Would I have an abortion if the circumstances made it necessary? Yes.

Do I see any correlation between the two? None at all.

Agreed.

Here are the similarities;

Both cases are about decision to end/not end a persons life.

Both cases relate to 9 month waiting period.

Both cases include a person with no previous memories.

A foetus cannot make advance decisions which relate to their medical care. You can't compare the 2.

Mrs

Neither can person in a comma.

It's an advance decision. It's made before anything happens to you.

Mrs

Yes but you're adding another variable to the scenario, the father in the scenario has not had this or similar discussion beforehand."

Your question was what would we do in that situation right? Well it would be my father in the coma so I can only answer the question in relation to me and my father.

Mrs

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By *naswingdressWoman over a year ago

Manchester (she/her)

"Here are the similarities;

Both cases are about decision to end/not end a persons life.

A person I know and love versus a person I have never met, and have no emotional attachment to.

So a stranger with a lack of social life holds less value than a person who has a family, correct?

Both cases relate to 9 month waiting period.

A 9 month period where my Father will be well cared for in a hospital, as opposed to a nine month period that will wreck havoc on my body and possibly kill me.

If the pregnancy was to cause a threat to the health or life of the pregnant mother abortion is allowed.

Both cases include a person with no previous memories.

A person that will be rehabilitated by professionals with little to no cost of mine, as opposed to a baby that will be financially dependent on me for at least 18 years.

The baby can be put into adoption services with no cost to you and 100% anonymity"

Thus violating the child's legally established right to know their parents.

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By (user no longer on site) over a year ago

"Here are the similarities;

Both cases are about decision to end/not end a persons life.

A person I know and love versus a person I have never met, and have no emotional attachment to.

So a stranger with a lack of social life holds less value than a person who has a family, correct?

Both cases relate to 9 month waiting period.

A 9 month period where my Father will be well cared for in a hospital, as opposed to a nine month period that will wreck havoc on my body and possibly kill me.

If the pregnancy was to cause a threat to the health or life of the pregnant mother abortion is allowed.

Both cases include a person with no previous memories.

A person that will be rehabilitated by professionals with little to no cost of mine, as opposed to a baby that will be financially dependent on me for at least 18 years.

The baby can be put into adoption services with no cost to you and 100% anonymity"

And that demonstrates a stark lack of understanding of the psychological effects of being a looked after child and of giving a child up for adoption

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By *edangel_2013Woman over a year ago

southend

[Removed by poster at 23/12/18 20:20:15]

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By (user no longer on site) over a year ago

Thing is OP what is life? There are thousands of live sperm killed every time they don't meet a compatible egg, do they have a right to life?

Even after an egg is fertilised it has a long way to go to be considered a life.

In the example you have given would you as a man want to have your nappies changed while you rolled around the floor helpless for 6 months to a year, spend 4 or 5 years learning how to use the toilet dress eat talk etc? I wouldn't choose that.

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By (user no longer on site) OP over a year ago

"Going to try this one again without adding the personal details.

The scenario you speak of is absolutely nothing like the pro-choice/pro-life debate. A child does not ask to be born.

In this scenario I'd pull the plug. The person coming out of the coma in nine months isn't my father anymore. He also wouldn't want to be dependent on anyone while he "relearns" everything.

So they person isn't your father anymore yet you made the conscious decision to end his life and assumed he wouldn't want to live it? Interesting.

Personal situation which goes too close to home.

Don't you dare judge me.

I'm not judging you, I find your statement interesting. If this scenario is too personal, the my apologies but it's not my fault and you can't blame me for making my arguments.

You were judging me and it is your fault.

Delete the thread.

I have absolutely zero attachment to you as a person and have zero interest in judging you or your decisions.

Just because you chose to attach personal feelings to my thread doesn't make me or the thread a culprit.

You judged me as a person as soon as you commented on my reply.

I made an observation, I don't care about you as a person or how you chose to live your life. Do you feel better now?

Just FYI, EVERYONE judges EVERYONE at all times.

No. It's a personal attack against anyone who doesn't share your views.

I notice you didn't share any "observations" with the poster above who agreed that all life is sacred."

If you can't distance your personal feelings from the argument that's not my fault.

They're not my views, I am quoting a scenario.

How can I argue a point that supports the argument?

Just to be clear once again this isn't my scenario.

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By *itty9899Man over a year ago

Craggy Island

"I've heard an interesting ProLife argument the other day and was wondering what other people think of it.

Just to be clear I'm not aligning myself with either side.

The argument was a scenario,

with the advent of mobile phone, social media, new memories can be taught it would be no worse then someone with Alzheimer's.

euthanasia should be available option for people who wish to seek a end to their own suffering and be of sound mind and body before making that decision

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By *bonynivoryCouple over a year ago

market harborough

"Going to try this one again without adding the personal details.

The scenario you speak of is absolutely nothing like the pro-choice/pro-life debate. A child does not ask to be born.

In this scenario I'd pull the plug. The person coming out of the coma in nine months isn't my father anymore. He also wouldn't want to be dependent on anyone while he "relearns" everything.

So they person isn't your father anymore yet you made the conscious decision to end his life and assumed he wouldn't want to live it? Interesting.

Personal situation which goes too close to home.

Don't you dare judge me.

I'm not judging you, I find your statement interesting. If this scenario is too personal, the my apologies but it's not my fault and you can't blame me for making my arguments.

You were judging me and it is your fault.

Delete the thread.

I have absolutely zero attachment to you as a person and have zero interest in judging you or your decisions.

Just because you chose to attach personal feelings to my thread doesn't make me or the thread a culprit.

You judged me as a person as soon as you commented on my reply.

I made an observation, I don't care about you as a person or how you chose to live your life. Do you feel better now?

Just FYI, EVERYONE judges EVERYONE at all times.

No. It's a personal attack against anyone who doesn't share your views.

I notice you didn't share any "observations" with the poster above who agreed that all life is sacred.

If you can't distance your personal feelings from the argument that's not my fault.

They're not my views, I am quoting a scenario.

How can I argue a point that supports the argument?

Just to be clear once again this isn't my scenario."

A bit of empathy would go a long way in this situation.

Mrs

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By (user no longer on site) over a year ago

"Why is pro life the opposite of pro choice?

I am pro life and pro choice. Pro life of the pregnant person and pro choice for that person to choose what healthcare they want for their body.

Pro life is the nice term for anti abortionist, anti pregnant person to make their own healthcare choices.

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By (user no longer on site) OP over a year ago

"Going to try this one again without adding the personal details.

The scenario you speak of is absolutely nothing like the pro-choice/pro-life debate. A child does not ask to be born.

In this scenario I'd pull the plug. The person coming out of the coma in nine months isn't my father anymore. He also wouldn't want to be dependent on anyone while he "relearns" everything.

So they person isn't your father anymore yet you made the conscious decision to end his life and assumed he wouldn't want to live it? Interesting.

Personal situation which goes too close to home.

Don't you dare judge me.

I'm not judging you, I find your statement interesting. If this scenario is too personal, the my apologies but it's not my fault and you can't blame me for making my arguments.

You were judging me and it is your fault.

Delete the thread.

I have absolutely zero attachment to you as a person and have zero interest in judging you or your decisions.

Just because you chose to attach personal feelings to my thread doesn't make me or the thread a culprit.

You judged me as a person as soon as you commented on my reply.

I made an observation, I don't care about you as a person or how you chose to live your life. Do you feel better now?

Just FYI, EVERYONE judges EVERYONE at all times.

No. It's a personal attack against anyone who doesn't share your views.

I notice you didn't share any "observations" with the poster above who agreed that all life is sacred.

If you can't distance your personal feelings from the argument that's not my fault.

They're not my views, I am quoting a scenario.

How can I argue a point that supports the argument?

Just to be clear once again this isn't my scenario.

A bit of empathy would go a long way in this situation.

Mrs"

I already apologized, I don't understand her own personal situation and I'm not related to her therefore I no interest in judging her. I just made an observation and said "interesting", I didn't insult her or her opinion, so I wish mine would also be respected.

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By (user no longer on site) over a year ago

"Pull the plug."

Still this.

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By (user no longer on site) over a year ago

"Just to be clear once again this isn't my scenario."

Just as well really, as it is such a poorly constructed comparison.

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By *alking DisasterWoman over a year ago

South Oxfordshire

"Going to try this one again without adding the personal details.

The scenario you speak of is absolutely nothing like the pro-choice/pro-life debate. A child does not ask to be born.

In this scenario I'd pull the plug. The person coming out of the coma in nine months isn't my father anymore. He also wouldn't want to be dependent on anyone while he "relearns" everything.

So they person isn't your father anymore yet you made the conscious decision to end his life and assumed he wouldn't want to live it? Interesting.

Personal situation which goes too close to home.

Don't you dare judge me.

I'm not judging you, I find your statement interesting. If this scenario is too personal, the my apologies but it's not my fault and you can't blame me for making my arguments.

You were judging me and it is your fault.

Delete the thread.

I have absolutely zero attachment to you as a person and have zero interest in judging you or your decisions.

Just because you chose to attach personal feelings to my thread doesn't make me or the thread a culprit.

You judged me as a person as soon as you commented on my reply.

I made an observation, I don't care about you as a person or how you chose to live your life. Do you feel better now?

Just FYI, EVERYONE judges EVERYONE at all times.

No. It's a personal attack against anyone who doesn't share your views.

I notice you didn't share any "observations" with the poster above who agreed that all life is sacred.

If you can't distance your personal feelings from the argument that's not my fault.

They're not my views, I am quoting a scenario.

How can I argue a point that supports the argument?

Just to be clear once again this isn't my scenario."

You are the one that put the "discussion" up. That means if you are being impartial you argue against both sides, even if you disagree with it. Otherwise it's a personal attack against anyone who disagrees with you.

And you have not apologized to me once.

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By (user no longer on site) OP over a year ago

"Going to try this one again without adding the personal details.

The scenario you speak of is absolutely nothing like the pro-choice/pro-life debate. A child does not ask to be born.

In this scenario I'd pull the plug. The person coming out of the coma in nine months isn't my father anymore. He also wouldn't want to be dependent on anyone while he "relearns" everything.

So they person isn't your father anymore yet you made the conscious decision to end his life and assumed he wouldn't want to live it? Interesting.

Personal situation which goes too close to home.

Don't you dare judge me.

I'm not judging you, I find your statement interesting. If this scenario is too personal, the my apologies but it's not my fault and you can't blame me for making my arguments.

You were judging me and it is your fault.

Delete the thread.

I have absolutely zero attachment to you as a person and have zero interest in judging you or your decisions.

Just because you chose to attach personal feelings to my thread doesn't make me or the thread a culprit.

You judged me as a person as soon as you commented on my reply.

I made an observation, I don't care about you as a person or how you chose to live your life. Do you feel better now?

Just FYI, EVERYONE judges EVERYONE at all times.

No. It's a personal attack against anyone who doesn't share your views.

I notice you didn't share any "observations" with the poster above who agreed that all life is sacred.

If you can't distance your personal feelings from the argument that's not my fault.

They're not my views, I am quoting a scenario.

How can I argue a point that supports the argument?

Just to be clear once again this isn't my scenario.

And you have not apologized to me once."

Yes and as you can tell almost no one has actually addressed the whole point of the thread which was the question of would you or would you not.

To make my stances clear, I have too divided opinion on this matter and therefore I would not want to make the decisions for the pregnant mother. (Her choice)

I have apologized to you and you can even see that in this conversation string.

"I'm not judging you, I find your statement interesting. If this scenario is too personal, the my apologies but it's not my fault and you can't blame me for making my arguments."

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By *alking DisasterWoman over a year ago

South Oxfordshire

[Removed by poster at 23/12/18 20:53:27]

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By (user no longer on site) over a year ago

"Yes and as you can tell almost no one has actually addressed the whole point of the thread which was the question of would you or would you not.

Many have answered both to leave the machine on and turn it off, even more have questioned the validty of the comparison.

Just to be clear, I have said turn it off, and that it is a silly comparison.

I also questioned when is a life considered a life, but nobody had an opinion on that...

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By *alking DisasterWoman over a year ago

South Oxfordshire

"Going to try this one again without adding the personal details.

The scenario you speak of is absolutely nothing like the pro-choice/pro-life debate. A child does not ask to be born.

In this scenario I'd pull the plug. The person coming out of the coma in nine months isn't my father anymore. He also wouldn't want to be dependent on anyone while he "relearns" everything.

So they person isn't your father anymore yet you made the conscious decision to end his life and assumed he wouldn't want to live it? Interesting.

Personal situation which goes too close to home.

Don't you dare judge me.

I'm not judging you, I find your statement interesting. If this scenario is too personal, the my apologies but it's not my fault and you can't blame me for making my arguments.

You were judging me and it is your fault.

Delete the thread.

I have absolutely zero attachment to you as a person and have zero interest in judging you or your decisions.

Just because you chose to attach personal feelings to my thread doesn't make me or the thread a culprit.

You judged me as a person as soon as you commented on my reply.

I made an observation, I don't care about you as a person or how you chose to live your life. Do you feel better now?

Just FYI, EVERYONE judges EVERYONE at all times.

No. It's a personal attack against anyone who doesn't share your views.

I notice you didn't share any "observations" with the poster above who agreed that all life is sacred.

If you can't distance your personal feelings from the argument that's not my fault.

They're not my views, I am quoting a scenario.

How can I argue a point that supports the argument?

Just to be clear once again this isn't my scenario.

And you have not apologized to me once.

Yes and as you can tell almost no one has actually addressed the whole point of the thread which was the question of would you or would you not.

To make my stances clear, I have too divided opinion on this matter and therefore I would not want to make the decisions for the pregnant mother. (Her choice)

I have apologized to you and you can even see that in this conversation string.

"I'm not judging you, I find your statement interesting. If this scenario is too personal, the my apologies but it's not my fault and you can't blame me for making my arguments.""

That is not an apology. It was you justifying your extremely hurtful remarks.

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By *alking DisasterWoman over a year ago

South Oxfordshire

"Yes and as you can tell almost no one has actually addressed the whole point of the thread which was the question of would you or would you not.

Many have answered both to leave the machine on and turn it off, even more have questioned the validty of the comparison.

Just to be clear, I have said turn it off, and that it is a silly comparison.

I also questioned when is a life considered a life, but nobody had an opinion on that... "

It's easier to bully the woman (therefore the "caring" person) than a man.

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By (user no longer on site) over a year ago

"Yes and as you can tell almost no one has actually addressed the whole point of the thread which was the question of would you or would you not.

Many have answered both to leave the machine on and turn it off, even more have questioned the validty of the comparison.

Just to be clear, I have said turn it off, and that it is a silly comparison.

I also questioned when is a life considered a life, but nobody had an opinion on that...

It's easier to bully the woman (therefore the "caring" person) than a man."

Of course, silly me

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By (user no longer on site) OP over a year ago

"Yes and as you can tell almost no one has actually addressed the whole point of the thread which was the question of would you or would you not.

Many have answered both to leave the machine on and turn it off, even more have questioned the validty of the comparison.

Just to be clear, I have said turn it off, and that it is a silly comparison.

I also questioned when is a life considered a life, but nobody had an opinion on that... "

I agree that a few people have indeed answered the question, some said yes some said no. You are correct.

How is the comparison silly? In what way, saying something is silly is not a valid argument, I hope we can both agree on that. It's dismissive rather than proactive.

When is life considered a life? In my opinion when the process of pregnancy has started. But that's just my opinion.

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By *naswingdressWoman over a year ago

Manchester (she/her)

Is all life worthwhile? Should all life be preserved? At what cost?

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By (user no longer on site) OP over a year ago

"Yes and as you can tell almost no one has actually addressed the whole point of the thread which was the question of would you or would you not.

Many have answered both to leave the machine on and turn it off, even more have questioned the validty of the comparison.

Just to be clear, I have said turn it off, and that it is a silly comparison.

I also questioned when is a life considered a life, but nobody had an opinion on that...

It's easier to bully the woman (therefore the "caring" person) than a man."

You're not a victim in this scenario or the thread for that matter? How am I bullying you when I literally said I carry zero attachment to you as a person and don't care how you choose to live your life.

If anyone could be considered a bully here, it's you, trying to demonize me for my opinion or my thread

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By (user no longer on site) over a year ago

"Yes and as you can tell almost no one has actually addressed the whole point of the thread which was the question of would you or would you not.

Many have answered both to leave the machine on and turn it off, even more have questioned the validty of the comparison.

Just to be clear, I have said turn it off, and that it is a silly comparison.

I also questioned when is a life considered a life, but nobody had an opinion on that...

I agree that a few people have indeed answered the question, some said yes some said no. You are correct.

How is the comparison silly? In what way, saying something is silly is not a valid argument, I hope we can both agree on that. It's dismissive rather than proactive.

When is life considered a life? In my opinion when the process of pregnancy has started. But that's just my opinion."

It is silly because no adult in right mind would want to go through infancy and childhood a second time. And no right thinking medical person would inflict that on them.

SO on the subject of when a life is alive, you think at the moment the sperm and egg meet? there are a massive number of fertalised eggs that don't so much as divide into 2 cells let alone an infant human, would you accept that is not a life?

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By *iamondsmiles.Woman over a year ago

little house on the praire

as for abortion its up to the individual woman to make her own decisions

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By *alking DisasterWoman over a year ago

South Oxfordshire

"Yes and as you can tell almost no one has actually addressed the whole point of the thread which was the question of would you or would you not.

Many have answered both to leave the machine on and turn it off, even more have questioned the validty of the comparison.

Just to be clear, I have said turn it off, and that it is a silly comparison.

I also questioned when is a life considered a life, but nobody had an opinion on that...

It's easier to bully the woman (therefore the "caring" person) than a man.

If anyone could be considered a bully here, it's you, trying to demonize me for my opinion or my thread

You have demonized everyone who disagrees with your opinion (even though you said in your OP that you weren't going to state yours because it is a "discussion").

You have gone for me worse than anyone on this thread.

I have never disagreed with your view, just told you not to judge me.

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By (user no longer on site) over a year ago

"Yes and as you can tell almost no one has actually addressed the whole point of the thread which was the question of would you or would you not.

Many have answered both to leave the machine on and turn it off, even more have questioned the validty of the comparison.

Just to be clear, I have said turn it off, and that it is a silly comparison.

I also questioned when is a life considered a life, but nobody had an opinion on that...

I agree that a few people have indeed answered the question, some said yes some said no. You are correct.

How is the comparison silly? In what way, saying something is silly is not a valid argument, I hope we can both agree on that. It's dismissive rather than proactive.

When is life considered a life? In my opinion when the process of pregnancy has started. But that's just my opinion."

Fortunately OP, your opinion has no bearing on anything and you (probably, I assume, as you identify as a man) will never experience pregnancy so as far as opinions go....yours is pretty irrelevant