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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago
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How can free will be an illusion? No matter how much subconscious or subliminal conditioning one is subjected to in order to skew the chances of a potential choice or path to be taken, at the end of the day the very fact that we're still individuals who can still choose to act or not act based on external input means we still have free will. |
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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago
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You have the right to choose your own path, and the obligation to not block or interfere with another person's right to choose theirs.
That means limits need to be imposed to give the maximum freedom to the greatest number of people. |
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"I think I definitely have free will!
All the many cock-up’s and wrong decisions/turns I made in my life were mine and mine alone!
Comforting is that!  "
Were they yours or a product of the era you were born, your up bringing and social pressure? |
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By *Vine OP Man
over a year ago
The right place |
"You tell me 
I think it’s mostly an illusion
Why?"
The science indicates that our choices are made subconsciously and our brains then rewrite history to convince us that we had agency to choose. It’s a sort of trick our brains do to give us a feeling of control over our lives. |
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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago
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"Brain scan studies show that there is a quarter of a second gap between making a decision and our conscious minds being aware that we have made them. "
Excellent I shall blame that quarter of a second for all the bad decisions I’ve made  |
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By *Vine OP Man
over a year ago
The right place |
"Brain scan studies show that there is a quarter of a second gap between making a decision and our conscious minds being aware that we have made them.
Excellent I shall blame that quarter of a second for all the bad decisions I’ve made "
Good idea, the problem is it’s still you that makes the bad decisions, just the unconscious part of you! So you’re still to blame! |
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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago
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"Brain scan studies show that there is a quarter of a second gap between making a decision and our conscious minds being aware that we have made them.
Excellent I shall blame that quarter of a second for all the bad decisions I’ve made
Good idea, the problem is it’s still you that makes the bad decisions, just the unconscious part of you! So you’re still to blame! "
So what you’re saying is that theory wouldn’t stand up in court then? Buggar  |
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By *Vine OP Man
over a year ago
The right place |
"Brain scan studies show that there is a quarter of a second gap between making a decision and our conscious minds being aware that we have made them.
Excellent I shall blame that quarter of a second for all the bad decisions I’ve made
Good idea, the problem is it’s still you that makes the bad decisions, just the unconscious part of you! So you’re still to blame!
So what you’re saying is that theory wouldn’t stand up in court then? Buggar "
Sadly not!
You could try demon possession! But I doubt that would hold much water either!! |
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"Brain scan studies show that there is a quarter of a second gap between making a decision and our conscious minds being aware that we have made them.
Excellent I shall blame that quarter of a second for all the bad decisions I’ve made
Good idea, the problem is it’s still you that makes the bad decisions, just the unconscious part of you! So you’re still to blame!
So what you’re saying is that theory wouldn’t stand up in court then? Buggar "
That's when you call Last Chance Lawyer  |
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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago
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"Brain scan studies show that there is a quarter of a second gap between making a decision and our conscious minds being aware that we have made them. "
Many of the people I deal with need a quarter of a century to make a decision and a lot longer to be aware of the consequences  |
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"You tell me
I think it’s mostly an illusion
Why?
The science indicates that our choices are made subconsciously and our brains then rewrite history to convince us that we had agency to choose. It’s a sort of trick our brains do to give us a feeling of control over our lives. "
It really doesn't. Your subconscious only handles certain decisions only, skill mastery is essentially when you can process a skill subconsciously, you need to consciously practice before that can happen, sport being a great example. The subconscious contains predictable biases that we can overrule once we become aware of them.
We are neither have total will, but are still further away from determinism or pre-destination. |
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If you think about it our ancestors probably had more free will than us, and of those who chose to use it they probably dieddoing things like eating new foods that they didn't know were poisonous but even then eating is something we tend to not have a choice about.
It's confusing. |
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By *Vine OP Man
over a year ago
The right place |
"You tell me
I think it’s mostly an illusion
Why?
The science indicates that our choices are made subconsciously and our brains then rewrite history to convince us that we had agency to choose. It’s a sort of trick our brains do to give us a feeling of control over our lives.
It really doesn't. Your subconscious only handles certain decisions only, skill mastery is essentially when you can process a skill subconsciously, you need to consciously practice before that can happen, sport being a great example. The subconscious contains predictable biases that we can overrule once we become aware of them.
We are neither have total will, but are still further away from determinism or pre-destination. "
That’s not what the science says.
Also you are conflating free will and freedom |
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"You tell me
I think it’s mostly an illusion
Why?
The science indicates that our choices are made subconsciously and our brains then rewrite history to convince us that we had agency to choose. It’s a sort of trick our brains do to give us a feeling of control over our lives.
It really doesn't. Your subconscious only handles certain decisions only, skill mastery is essentially when you can process a skill subconsciously, you need to consciously practice before that can happen, sport being a great example. The subconscious contains predictable biases that we can overrule once we become aware of them.
We are neither have total will, but are still further away from determinism or pre-destination.
That’s not what the science says.
Also you are conflating free will and freedom "
Ok what paper should I read that supports your argument that all choices are made subsciously? |
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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago
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To some degree yes. I chose to get up this morning 30 mins later, of my free will.
However, I've recently been trying a specific diet. My gut microbiome has changed, and the microbiome is able to use the blood-brain barrier as a cell signalling pathway. As such, the microrganisms in me effectively influence what I want to eat. So in this sense I have less free will. |
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It's an illusion. Ask any addict, any parent who puts their child's welfare before their own, anyone who takes care of a sick or disabled family member, any child who has been abused, any woman or man who has been sexually or physically assaulted, anyone who grieves for someone they lost, anyone who has ever had their heart broken...
Anyone who has ever thought for even the briefest moment.. 'I wish....' |
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Free will
Ok so you wake up, you think I’d best get up and have a cup of tea and toast
Free will you think??
So it I’ll have coffee and cereals
There
Or was you always going to go for the second option?
Free will or is life just pre ordained ? |
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By *Vine OP Man
over a year ago
The right place |
"It's impossible to know either way. So...
I disagree, it’s possible to test.
How?
Interesting thread. "
There are lots of papers about this. Here is one.
http://www.pnas.org/content/110/15/6217
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"To some degree yes. I chose to get up this morning 30 mins later, of my free will.
However, I've recently been trying a specific diet. My gut microbiome has changed, and the microbiome is able to use the blood-brain barrier as a cell signalling pathway. As such, the microrganisms in me effectively influence what I want to eat. So in this sense I have less free will. "
I'd be interested in some references on this phenomenon if you have any, having just had a load of breath tests to analyse my microbiome lol!? |
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"You tell me
I think it’s mostly an illusion
Why?
The science indicates that our choices are made subconsciously and our brains then rewrite history to convince us that we had agency to choose. It’s a sort of trick our brains do to give us a feeling of control over our lives.
It really doesn't. Your subconscious only handles certain decisions only, skill mastery is essentially when you can process a skill subconsciously, you need to consciously practice before that can happen, sport being a great example. The subconscious contains predictable biases that we can overrule once we become aware of them.
"
I agree the buck stops with us, but the trouble is we will only ever become aware of a fraction of them so it's impossible to judge the degree of influence remaining. |
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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago
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While I agree with the proposition that many decisions are made subconsciously, and can be measured as such. I don't think that has anything to do with free will.
Decisions that are made subconsciously will be things like that colour is red, free will is more complex and is a direction consisting of multiple steps and planning, rather than a simple input choice. I am sure that is not so easily measured.
As I said before we all have a semblance of free will, but that is restricted by obligation to allow others to also have the same. |
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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago
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"Until you have "fuck you money" you'll struggle with true free will.
"
You have the freedom to chase after "fuck you money" or use your time in a different way. But you need to be aware that money brings its own obligations and restrictions with it. |
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By *Vine OP Man
over a year ago
The right place |
"So op... was your decision to start this thread an act of free will? Or was it predestined from the moment the universe came into existence? "
Well that’s a good question! It probably wasn’t a completely free act of free will, something motivated me. But because of the random effects that quantum mechanics introduces I wouldn’t say it was predestined from them moment the universe came into existence. |
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"So op... was your decision to start this thread an act of free will? Or was it predestined from the moment the universe came into existence?
Well that’s a good question! It probably wasn’t a completely free act of free will, something motivated me. But because of the random effects that quantum mechanics introduces I wouldn’t say it was predestined from them moment the universe came into existence. "
What definition of free will are you using? |
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By *Vine OP Man
over a year ago
The right place |
"So op... was your decision to start this thread an act of free will? Or was it predestined from the moment the universe came into existence?
Well that’s a good question! It probably wasn’t a completely free act of free will, something motivated me. But because of the random effects that quantum mechanics introduces I wouldn’t say it was predestined from them moment the universe came into existence.
What definition of free will are you using? "
A conscious choice or decision |
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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago
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"So op... was your decision to start this thread an act of free will? Or was it predestined from the moment the universe came into existence?
Well that’s a good question! It probably wasn’t a completely free act of free will, something motivated me. But because of the random effects that quantum mechanics introduces I wouldn’t say it was predestined from them moment the universe came into existence.
What definition of free will are you using?
A conscious choice or decision "
For me free will means the ability to go against the laws of nature. A "conscious choice" doesn't mean anything if it has been predetermined by your subconscious mind. It has to be a decision that defied what was inevitably going to happen any way, if you hadn't made it. Am I making sense?  |
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"So op... was your decision to start this thread an act of free will? Or was it predestined from the moment the universe came into existence?
Well that’s a good question! It probably wasn’t a completely free act of free will, something motivated me. But because of the random effects that quantum mechanics introduces I wouldn’t say it was predestined from them moment the universe came into existence.
What definition of free will are you using?
A conscious choice or decision "
So how am I conflating free will and freedom. How could you have freedom without conscious choice? |
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Ps nice suit pic 
