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Butterfly
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 don’t find it realistic atall | |||
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Ms B  | |||
"I would be supportive but it would still be hard to get your head round it, I imagine you would grieve for the loss of a son/daughter but then you gain a son/daughter. I’m finding the program a bit slow at the moment but trying to gain some kind of understanding. I imagine it’s a very lonely place to be which is quite sad
Ms B "I’m sorry but if my son or daughter showed signs of being in a different body I’d not be worried as they are as such. I’d be supportive and talk and let him feel it’s ok! and if his dad ever behaved that way I’d be disgusted. | |||
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"I would be supportive but it would still be hard to get your head round it, I imagine you would grieve for the loss of a son/daughter but then you gain a son/daughter. I’m finding the program a bit slow at the moment but trying to gain some kind of understanding. I imagine it’s a very lonely place to be which is quite sad
Ms B
I’m sorry but if my son or daughter showed signs of being in a different body I’d not be worried as they are as such. I’d be supportive and talk and let him feel it’s ok! and if his dad ever behaved that way I’d be disgusted. "Of course I would let them know it’s ok to be anyone they wanted to be that goes without saying but the struggle as a parent mustn’t be dismissed either | |||
"I would be supportive but it would still be hard to get your head round it, I imagine you would grieve for the loss of a son/daughter but then you gain a son/daughter. I’m finding the program a bit slow at the moment but trying to gain some kind of understanding. I imagine it’s a very lonely place to be which is quite sad
Ms B
I’m sorry but if my son or daughter showed signs of being in a different body I’d not be worried as they are as such. I’d be supportive and talk and let him feel it’s ok! and if his dad ever behaved that way I’d be disgusted.
Of course I would let them know it’s ok to be anyone they wanted to be that goes without saying but the struggle as a parent mustn’t be dismissed either "I’m not dismissing it, more so that if my child presented as a boy girl or neutral I’d really be more worried about their welfare than mine. My feelings are my children’s as such! | |||
"I would be supportive but it would still be hard to get your head round it, I imagine you would grieve for the loss of a son/daughter but then you gain a son/daughter. I’m finding the program a bit slow at the moment but trying to gain some kind of understanding. I imagine it’s a very lonely place to be which is quite sad
Ms B
I’m sorry but if my son or daughter showed signs of being in a different body I’d not be worried as they are as such. I’d be supportive and talk and let him feel it’s ok! and if his dad ever behaved that way I’d be disgusted.
Of course I would let them know it’s ok to be anyone they wanted to be that goes without saying but the struggle as a parent mustn’t be dismissed either
I’m not dismissing it, more so that if my child presented as a boy girl or neutral I’d really be more worried about their welfare than mine. My feelings are my children’s as such! "Defo goes without saying.  | |||
"I would be supportive but it would still be hard to get your head round it, I imagine you would grieve for the loss of a son/daughter but then you gain a son/daughter. I’m finding the program a bit slow at the moment but trying to gain some kind of understanding. I imagine it’s a very lonely place to be which is quite sad
Ms B
I’m sorry but if my son or daughter showed signs of being in a different body I’d not be worried as they are as such. I’d be supportive and talk and let him feel it’s ok! and if his dad ever behaved that way I’d be disgusted.
Of course I would let them know it’s ok to be anyone they wanted to be that goes without saying but the struggle as a parent mustn’t be dismissed either
I’m not dismissing it, more so that if my child presented as a boy girl or neutral I’d really be more worried about their welfare than mine. My feelings are my children’s as such!
Defo goes without saying. "And if any man, father or not behaved like that I’d tell him to go! I’d no way put up with that. | |||
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"I think we would all like to hope we would be completely cool with things but until actually placed in that situation there is no way of knowing for certain... As much as we love our children and want them to be happy. I agree that the dad's behaviour was totally out of order and anybody hitting my child would find themselves out with no coming back. " | |||
"I think we would all like to hope we would be completely cool with things but until actually placed in that situation there is no way of knowing for certain... As much as we love our children and want them to be happy. I agree that the dad's behaviour was totally out of order and anybody hitting my child would find themselves out with no coming back. " I know for certain 100000% I wouldn’t behave like that. I know for certain I’d be worried about my child’s feelings and him/her just feeling comfortable. Letting them grow and express themselves as they wish. Not oppress their feelings. Couldn’t even watch it fully tbh. | |||
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"I think we would all like to hope we would be completely cool with things but until actually placed in that situation there is no way of knowing for certain... As much as we love our children and want them to be happy. I agree that the dad's behaviour was totally out of order and anybody hitting my child would find themselves out with no coming back. I know for certain 100000% I wouldn’t behave like that. I know for certain I’d be worried about my child’s feelings and him/her just feeling comfortable. Letting them grow and express themselves as they wish. Not oppress their feelings. Couldn’t even watch it fully tbh. " I think, along with being concerned for the child's feelings and how they want to express themselves I'd also be concerned for their emotional and physical 'safety' in the wider community. Anna Friels character was behave how I imagine most mother's would. We all want our children to grow up happy, healthy and safe... That's no different for parents of LGBT children. When my son came out bi, along with the immense sense of pride that he felt comfortable and confident to do so, came the quiet sense of, what can only be described as, anxiety... Anxiety for his safety, in what can be a very cruel, biggoted world at times. I would imagine that anxiety is twice as strong for the mother or father of a trans child. | |||
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"I think we would all like to hope we would be completely cool with things but until actually placed in that situation there is no way of knowing for certain... As much as we love our children and want them to be happy. I agree that the dad's behaviour was totally out of order and anybody hitting my child would find themselves out with no coming back. I know for certain 100000% I wouldn’t behave like that. I know for certain I’d be worried about my child’s feelings and him/her just feeling comfortable. Letting them grow and express themselves as they wish. Not oppress their feelings. Couldn’t even watch it fully tbh. I think, along with being concerned for the child's feelings and how they want to express themselves I'd also be concerned for their emotional and physical 'safety' in the wider community. Anna Friels character was behave how I imagine most mother's would. We all want our children to grow up happy, healthy and safe... That's no different for parents of LGBT children. When my son came out bi, along with the immense sense of pride that he felt comfortable and confident to do so, came the quiet sense of, what can only be described as, anxiety... Anxiety for his safety, in what can be a very cruel, biggoted world at times. I would imagine that anxiety is twice as strong for the mother or father of a trans child." Yes I agree totally. I’ve a close friend with a child going through this and she is totally not like Anna is portraying. And I wouldn’t be either. Why be scared, they portray it like it was life or death! It was horrible for and comidical at parts. Trying to stereotype every trans person or child. Not everyone is the same. I’ve every empathy and support for parent and child that are struggling but it’s not life or death. Be positive and support and understand. | |||
"I think we would all like to hope we would be completely cool with things but until actually placed in that situation there is no way of knowing for certain... As much as we love our children and want them to be happy. I agree that the dad's behaviour was totally out of order and anybody hitting my child would find themselves out with no coming back. I know for certain 100000% I wouldn’t behave like that. I know for certain I’d be worried about my child’s feelings and him/her just feeling comfortable. Letting them grow and express themselves as they wish. Not oppress their feelings. Couldn’t even watch it fully tbh. I think, along with being concerned for the child's feelings and how they want to express themselves I'd also be concerned for their emotional and physical 'safety' in the wider community. Anna Friels character was behave how I imagine most mother's would. We all want our children to grow up happy, healthy and safe... That's no different for parents of LGBT children. When my son came out bi, along with the immense sense of pride that he felt comfortable and confident to do so, came the quiet sense of, what can only be described as, anxiety... Anxiety for his safety, in what can be a very cruel, biggoted world at times. I would imagine that anxiety is twice as strong for the mother or father of a trans child. Yes I agree totally. I’ve a close friend with a child going through this and she is totally not like Anna is portraying. And I wouldn’t be either. Why be scared, they portray it like it was life or death! It was horrible for and comidical at parts. Trying to stereotype every trans person or child. Not everyone is the same. I’ve every empathy and support for parent and child that are struggling but it’s not life or death. Be positive and support and understand. " I think the key here is "Not everyone is the same"... Therefore some at least may react how the characters are. It's got people talking though, which is always a good thing. | |||
"I think we would all like to hope we would be completely cool with things but until actually placed in that situation there is no way of knowing for certain... As much as we love our children and want them to be happy. I agree that the dad's behaviour was totally out of order and anybody hitting my child would find themselves out with no coming back. I know for certain 100000% I wouldn’t behave like that. I know for certain I’d be worried about my child’s feelings and him/her just feeling comfortable. Letting them grow and express themselves as they wish. Not oppress their feelings. Couldn’t even watch it fully tbh. I think, along with being concerned for the child's feelings and how they want to express themselves I'd also be concerned for their emotional and physical 'safety' in the wider community. Anna Friels character was behave how I imagine most mother's would. We all want our children to grow up happy, healthy and safe... That's no different for parents of LGBT children. When my son came out bi, along with the immense sense of pride that he felt comfortable and confident to do so, came the quiet sense of, what can only be described as, anxiety... Anxiety for his safety, in what can be a very cruel, biggoted world at times. I would imagine that anxiety is twice as strong for the mother or father of a trans child. Yes I agree totally. I’ve a close friend with a child going through this and she is totally not like Anna is portraying. And I wouldn’t be either. Why be scared, they portray it like it was life or death! It was horrible for and comidical at parts. Trying to stereotype every trans person or child. Not everyone is the same. I’ve every empathy and support for parent and child that are struggling but it’s not life or death. Be positive and support and understand. I think the key here is "Not everyone is the same"... Therefore some at least may react how the characters are. It's got people talking though, which is always a good thing." Yes I get you, sad really isn’t it. | |||
"I think we would all like to hope we would be completely cool with things but until actually placed in that situation there is no way of knowing for certain... As much as we love our children and want them to be happy. I agree that the dad's behaviour was totally out of order and anybody hitting my child would find themselves out with no coming back. I know for certain 100000% I wouldn’t behave like that. I know for certain I’d be worried about my child’s feelings and him/her just feeling comfortable. Letting them grow and express themselves as they wish. Not oppress their feelings. Couldn’t even watch it fully tbh. I think, along with being concerned for the child's feelings and how they want to express themselves I'd also be concerned for their emotional and physical 'safety' in the wider community. Anna Friels character was behave how I imagine most mother's would. We all want our children to grow up happy, healthy and safe... That's no different for parents of LGBT children. When my son came out bi, along with the immense sense of pride that he felt comfortable and confident to do so, came the quiet sense of, what can only be described as, anxiety... Anxiety for his safety, in what can be a very cruel, biggoted world at times. I would imagine that anxiety is twice as strong for the mother or father of a trans child. Yes I agree totally. I’ve a close friend with a child going through this and she is totally not like Anna is portraying. And I wouldn’t be either. Why be scared, they portray it like it was life or death! It was horrible for and comidical at parts. Trying to stereotype every trans person or child. Not everyone is the same. I’ve every empathy and support for parent and child that are struggling but it’s not life or death. Be positive and support and understand. I think the key here is "Not everyone is the same"... Therefore some at least may react how the characters are. It's got people talking though, which is always a good thing. Yes I get you, sad really isn’t it. " Very. Like we said to my son, one day people won't need to 'come out', they won't need to 'identify as', people will just 'be' and be accepted as people, no questions. Sadly that days a way off yet, but we are getting there. Us people are an amazing species. | |||
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"When he wet himself on the stairs and the nan walked out as she was disgusted. Sorry but if that was my mum she wouldn’t be welcome in my house again " So the father would be kicked out , your Mum wouldn’t be welcome any more , and that would you leave just you and you’re (no doubt by now extremely entitled) child . It’s all very well saying it’s not realistic , but that’s only in your eyes . For many it’s a realistic observation . Of course I won’t condone physical violence , nor the condescending way the nan behaved , but in reality there are probably way more who would be like them than like you . You would be responsible for creating yet more of the current entitled generation by being overly supportive in my opinion . The child should be no more or no less supported than a cis child . Kicking his father and your mum out gives a child the feeling of unrealistic empowerment , and that will never end well . No one else in the child’s life will offer anything like that kind of power and commitment , but they would expect it because of your actions . | |||
"When he wet himself on the stairs and the nan walked out as she was disgusted. Sorry but if that was my mum she wouldn’t be welcome in my house again So the father would be kicked out , your Mum wouldn’t be welcome any more , and that would you leave just you and you’re (no doubt by now extremely entitled) child . It’s all very well saying it’s not realistic , but that’s only in your eyes . For many it’s a realistic observation . Of course I won’t condone physical violence , nor the condescending way the nan behaved , but in reality there are probably way more who would be like them than like you . You would be responsible for creating yet more of the current entitled generation by being overly supportive in my opinion . The child should be no more or no less supported than a cis child . Kicking his father and your mum out gives a child the feeling of unrealistic empowerment , and that will never end well . No one else in the child’s life will offer anything like that kind of power and commitment , but they would expect it because of your actions ." Yes!!! I’ve no mum or dad as such. And brought my two kids up myself. Is that hard to understand? Trans or non trans it’s hard but I’ve done it and I’ve done it bloody good so far all on my own | |||
"I think we would all like to hope we would be completely cool with things but until actually placed in that situation there is no way of knowing for certain... As much as we love our children and want them to be happy. I agree that the dad's behaviour was totally out of order and anybody hitting my child would find themselves out with no coming back. I know for certain 100000% I wouldn’t behave like that. I know for certain I’d be worried about my child’s feelings and him/her just feeling comfortable. Letting them grow and express themselves as they wish. Not oppress their feelings. Couldn’t even watch it fully tbh. " Wouldn't you also be worried about how the rest of society would treat your child? I think concern as a parent would be based around knowing that your child would have a much easier life if they fit in. I can understand feeling conflicted due to that | |||
"I think we would all like to hope we would be completely cool with things but until actually placed in that situation there is no way of knowing for certain... As much as we love our children and want them to be happy. I agree that the dad's behaviour was totally out of order and anybody hitting my child would find themselves out with no coming back. I know for certain 100000% I wouldn’t behave like that. I know for certain I’d be worried about my child’s feelings and him/her just feeling comfortable. Letting them grow and express themselves as they wish. Not oppress their feelings. Couldn’t even watch it fully tbh. Wouldn't you also be worried about how the rest of society would treat your child? I think concern as a parent would be based around knowing that your child would have a much easier life if they fit in. I can understand feeling conflicted due to that" No I wouldn’t because I don’t care what society think. I’ve got morals and standards and I’m a good person. My children have manners and respect. If my boy wanted to be a girl then I’d bloody support him and understand 100% and vice versa if it was my girl. | |||
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"I get it...you're a supportive parent If maybe a bit blinkered to the rest of the world. "If that’s at me then I’m not blinkered. Not one iota. | |||
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"I got so many programmes to catch up on." Emmerdale is good this week | |||
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"I get it...you're a supportive parent If maybe a bit blinkered to the rest of the world.
If that’s at me then I’m not blinkered. Not one iota."Fair enough | |||
"I get it...you're a supportive parent If maybe a bit blinkered to the rest of the world.
If that’s at me then I’m not blinkered. Not one iota.
Fair enough "If I come across like that I apologise. I’m just so not like that. I work in mental health and I’ve also been through a lot in my life. I know life isn’t black and white. | |||
"I get it...you're a supportive parent If maybe a bit blinkered to the rest of the world.
If that’s at me then I’m not blinkered. Not one iota.
Fair enough
If I come across like that I apologise. I’m just so not like that. I work in mental health and I’ve also been through a lot in my life. I know life isn’t black and white. "Ach away...you've no need to be apologising | |||
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"I grew up in the 1970s, the youngest of three sons. About 7 or 8, my parents learned I had been messing around in secret in my mum's clothes. My father decided the way to "cure" me was with violence and shaming. I suspect he saw a son "turning into a poof" as a challenge to his own masculinity. Zero empathy, pretty much like how the father in this programme is depicted. He succeeded only in making me a) even more secretive; and b) growing up to resent him. He saw femininity in a male as something shameful. Yes, it was the 1970s, yes more people are enlightened today. But I suspect it remains a typical response among men who regard women as inferior. Those feelings never left me. They were and are part of me and cannot be erased. It took me a lot longer to find my feet, to have the courage to be myself and flourish, than otherwise might have been the case. The programme stirred a lot of emotions in me. It was real. " Yes it was , and I grew up in the seventies too . The amount of times I heard my father going on about how people like Marc Bolan , David Bowie , The Sweet and so on were were a bunch of poofs with their make up and feminine attire ! And don’t forget it was only a few years after homosexuality was made legal in the U.K. . So before people condemn the fathers at the time too much , spare a moment for how it must have been , and still is for them . It’s a headfuck for the child , but it’s also just as much so for the parents . Once again I certainly don’t condone any type of violence nor shaming , and as more time passes is will undoubtably become an easier and less stressful time for all involved . Programmers like this will get people thinking and talking about it which is unquestionably a good thing . One of the things which is of concern to a dinosaur like myself is this . If it becomes the norm to act upon desires as one grows up , and if you like , it becomes weird not to , are we going to end up with kids thinking they aren’t normal if they don’t have the urge to explore their bi side ? When I was growing up , I experimented with some of my Mums clothes as they looked like what the pop stars at the time wore . Of course I was only eight or nine at the time and no one knew I did it . But these days I may be encouraged to take it further and no doubt plenty of kids will . And although I’ve experimented with my bi side since swinging , I’m sure that I’m straight and I have no desire to dress in women’s clothes . So if today’s way was in place then , I could have ended up being a tv or tg , despite the fact that I’m perfectly happy as a straight male . Something else to think about I think . | |||
" So if today’s way was in place then , I could have ended up being a tv or tg , despite the fact that I’m perfectly happy as a straight male . Something else to think about I think . " Unlikley. Being trans is a product of nature not nuture, its there from conception, like sexuality is. These days folk are more likely to embrace their nature whereas before the 70's you would suppress it as much as possible because of nuture. | |||
" So if today’s way was in place then , I could have ended up being a tv or tg , despite the fact that I’m perfectly happy as a straight male . Something else to think about I think . Unlikley. Being trans is a product of nature not nuture, its there from conception, like sexuality is. These days folk are more likely to embrace their nature whereas before the 70's you would suppress it as much as possible because of nuture." Interesting thoughts . So me trying in my Mums clothes and make up was just a phase then ? | |||
" So if today’s way was in place then , I could have ended up being a tv or tg , despite the fact that I’m perfectly happy as a straight male . Something else to think about I think . Unlikley. Being trans is a product of nature not nuture, its there from conception, like sexuality is. These days folk are more likely to embrace their nature whereas before the 70's you would suppress it as much as possible because of nuture. Interesting thoughts . So me trying in my Mums clothes and make up was just a phase then ? " it seems to me that you tried on your mums clothes etc becasue you wanted to look like the rock stars the mention in your post , i wore my mums for very different reasons , not to imitate anyone,but just to feel more like the true person i felt inside as a boy it felt all wrong | |||
"Never heard of it. What's it about? " What they turn into maybe | |||
" Interesting thoughts . So me trying in my Mums clothes and make up was just a phase then ? " I do know that the overwhelming majority of trans folk started young and never told anyone. It never goes away. You may have times (puberty for instance and early teens when the testosterone kicks in for MtF's) where its supressed but its always there in the back of your mind, its fear via nuture that supresses the nature. Aside for physical signs there is nothing that actually defines a male or female as whats the perfect role model. You could say that to be male you have to be xxxx .... xxx and x, someone will then say i am nothing like that but i am a male. Its not a black and white binary concept. | |||
" So if today’s way was in place then , I could have ended up being a tv or tg , despite the fact that I’m perfectly happy as a straight male . Something else to think about I think . Unlikley. Being trans is a product of nature not nuture, its there from conception, like sexuality is. These days folk are more likely to embrace their nature whereas before the 70's you would suppress it as much as possible because of nuture. Interesting thoughts . So me trying in my Mums clothes and make up was just a phase then ? it seems to me that you tried on your mums clothes etc becasue you wanted to look like the rock stars the mention in your post , i wore my mums for very different reasons , not to imitate anyone,but just to feel more like the true person i felt inside as a boy it felt all wrong " Yes I think you are right , but what if I had been encouraged ? Do you think it may have altered who I became ? Or do you think it has to be an inherent thing from within that’s only there in people born into the wrong body? | |||
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" So if today’s way was in place then , I could have ended up being a tv or tg , despite the fact that I’m perfectly happy as a straight male . Something else to think about I think . Unlikley. Being trans is a product of nature not nuture, its there from conception, like sexuality is. These days folk are more likely to embrace their nature whereas before the 70's you would suppress it as much as possible because of nuture. Interesting thoughts . So me trying in my Mums clothes and make up was just a phase then ? it seems to me that you tried on your mums clothes etc becasue you wanted to look like the rock stars the mention in your post , i wore my mums for very different reasons , not to imitate anyone,but just to feel more like the true person i felt inside as a boy it felt all wrong Yes I think you are right , but what if I had been encouraged ? Do you think it may have altered who I became ? Or do you think it has to be an inherent thing from within that’s only there in people born into the wrong body? " Years ago, if someone with genitalia of one sex was convinced in their mind they were the other sex, we would have tried to alter their mind to fit their body. These days, if someone has that conviction, we try to alter their body to fit their mind. I am not convinced either approach is right in all circumstances. What worries me a lot is telling an eight year old girl who says. "I am a boy", "Yes you are a boy", and setting them on the route to mastectomy, lifelong medication and infertility. Kids talk a right load of bollocks about everything and a lot will grow out of cross sex identification. Just be relaxed and see what happens, but don't go on immediately down the affirmation route. | |||
" Yes I think you are right , but what if I had been encouraged ? Do you think it may have altered who I became ? Or do you think it has to be an inherent thing from within that’s only there in people born into the wrong body? " Only the individual knows themself. If you had been encouraged to wear a dress or even forcibly made to that is nuture however your true nature will eventually win out when you are able to decide for yourself. If your still questioning it all these years later and still sometimes think about it you may have gender conflictions, just not to the extent that you want or need to express it physically. Gender has usually been viewed on a linear scale (binary) with male at one end and female at the other. If you assume they are the two extreme ends then whats all thats inbetween? If you take the linear line and turn it into a circle where is the beginning and end? If the circle becomes dimensional (non binary) and is now a sphere and you can be (gender wise) anywhere in and on it either fixed or moving ... ? | |||
" Yes I think you are right , but what if I had been encouraged ? Do you think it may have altered who I became ? Or do you think it has to be an inherent thing from within that’s only there in people born into the wrong body? Only the individual knows themself. If you had been encouraged to wear a dress or even forcibly made to that is nuture however your true nature will eventually win out when you are able to decide for yourself. If your still questioning it all these years later and still sometimes think about it you may have gender conflictions, just not to the extent that you want or need to express it physically. Gender has usually been viewed on a linear scale (binary) with male at one end and female at the other. If you assume they are the two extreme ends then whats all thats inbetween? If you take the linear line and turn it into a circle where is the beginning and end? If the circle becomes dimensional (non binary) and is now a sphere and you can be (gender wise) anywhere in and on it either fixed or moving ... ?" Sex is binary, gender is infinite in that there are an infinite number of ways of performing social roles thought to be appropriate to the two sexes. | |||
" Sex is binary, gender is infinite in that there are an infinite number of ways of performing social roles thought to be appropriate to the two sexes. " Sexuality can be added to the sphere, it intermingles with gender. It cannot be binary if you accept there is bi-sexuality, homosexuality and lesbianism. What cannot be included is Religous belief ... thats a product of nuture. | |||
" Sex is binary, gender is infinite in that there are an infinite number of ways of performing social roles thought to be appropriate to the two sexes. Sexuality can be added to the sphere, it intermingles with gender. It cannot be binary if you accept there is bi-sexuality, homosexuality and lesbianism. What cannot be included is Religous belief ... thats a product of nuture." Anything that is an idea in human minds has a infinite variety of possible variations. That goes for gender, sexuality or whatever. You have to distinguish that from things that exist separate from and independent of human ideas. Mammals and their reproductive process exist independent of human minds. One can observe that Mammals reproduce sexually and on the basis of division into males and females. Hence sex is binary independent of what is in the mind of any human being. | |||
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"if your defining sex as binary then thats like a light switch either on or off and infact its more like a dimmer switch where there are people sitting somewhere in between both male and female ,genetically phsyiloically and mentally . scientists are now describing sex as a spectrum " No they aren't. Human beings and other mammals reproduce by the conjunction of eggs and spermatozoa, those gametes being produced by females and males. No female can impregnate anyone and no male can give birth. Thus sex is binary. | |||
"if your defining sex as binary then thats like a light switch either on or off and infact its more like a dimmer switch where there are people sitting somewhere in between both male and female ,genetically phsyiloically and mentally . scientists are now describing sex as a spectrum " Are you conflating sex and gender? Put simply, sex is what exists between your legs and gender is what exists between your ears. | |||
"if your defining sex as binary then thats like a light switch either on or off and infact its more like a dimmer switch where there are people sitting somewhere in between both male and female ,genetically phsyiloically and mentally . scientists are now describing sex as a spectrum Are you conflating sex and gender? Put simply, sex is what exists between your legs and gender is what exists between your ears." I think they might be. You can have a personal sense of yourself in any of a myriad of ways, but none of that alters external reality. | |||
"if your defining sex as binary then thats like a light switch either on or off and infact its more like a dimmer switch where there are people sitting somewhere in between both male and female ,genetically phsyiloically and mentally . scientists are now describing sex as a spectrum No they aren't. Human beings and other mammals reproduce by the conjunction of eggs and spermatozoa, those gametes being produced by females and males. No female can impregnate anyone and no male can give birth. Thus sex is binary. " Less than a week since news broke that scientists have successfully reproduced from two female mice with no male at all. Frankenstein science in my opinion but that's your binary notion blown  | |||
"if your defining sex as binary then thats like a light switch either on or off and infact its more like a dimmer switch where there are people sitting somewhere in between both male and female ,genetically phsyiloically and mentally . scientists are now describing sex as a spectrum No they aren't. Human beings and other mammals reproduce by the conjunction of eggs and spermatozoa, those gametes being produced by females and males. No female can impregnate anyone and no male can give birth. Thus sex is binary. Less than a week since news broke that scientists have successfully reproduced from two female mice with no male at all. Frankenstein science in my opinion but that's your binary notion blown "Interesting! But ready the articles about it, it's clear they proceed on the basis of there being two sexes. As I understand it, they take something from a stem cell from one female and place it in another female and they can produce only female offspring. Hence we still have two sexes, only the males are cut out of the equation... | |||
"if your defining sex as binary then thats like a light switch either on or off and infact its more like a dimmer switch where there are people sitting somewhere in between both male and female ,genetically phsyiloically and mentally . scientists are now describing sex as a spectrum No they aren't. Human beings and other mammals reproduce by the conjunction of eggs and spermatozoa, those gametes being produced by females and males. No female can impregnate anyone and no male can give birth. Thus sex is binary. Less than a week since news broke that scientists have successfully reproduced from two female mice with no male at all. Frankenstein science in my opinion but that's your binary notion blown
Interesting!
But ready the articles about it, it's clear they proceed on the basis of there being two sexes. As I understand it, they take something from a stem cell from one female and place it in another female and they can produce only female offspring.
Hence we still have two sexes, only the males are cut out of the equation... "With the greatest respect, worldwide medical opinion is at odds with your own. Hence there is a worldwide protocol for dealing with Transgender people. I do understand why it's hard to grasp. Less than 1% of the entire population are gender incongruent to any degree. Less than that compelled to change it. For the remaining 99+%, there is simply no frame of reference that you could have that would allow you to know what it is to be Trans. It's not remotely a feeling BTW, it's as definite a knowledge as most people have of being either male or female. I think you are entitled to your opinion, of course, but I'm immensely grateful it's not held by the NHS. | |||
"if your defining sex as binary then thats like a light switch either on or off and infact its more like a dimmer switch where there are people sitting somewhere in between both male and female ,genetically phsyiloically and mentally . scientists are now describing sex as a spectrum No they aren't. Human beings and other mammals reproduce by the conjunction of eggs and spermatozoa, those gametes being produced by females and males. No female can impregnate anyone and no male can give birth. Thus sex is binary. Less than a week since news broke that scientists have successfully reproduced from two female mice with no male at all. Frankenstein science in my opinion but that's your binary notion blown
Interesting!
But ready the articles about it, it's clear they proceed on the basis of there being two sexes. As I understand it, they take something from a stem cell from one female and place it in another female and they can produce only female offspring.
Hence we still have two sexes, only the males are cut out of the equation...
With the greatest respect, worldwide medical opinion is at odds with your own. Hence there is a worldwide protocol for dealing with Transgender people. I do understand why it's hard to grasp. Less than 1% of the entire population are gender incongruent to any degree. Less than that compelled to change it. For the remaining 99+%, there is simply no frame of reference that you could have that would allow you to know what it is to be Trans. It's not remotely a feeling BTW, it's as definite a knowledge as most people have of being either male or female. I think you are entitled to your opinion, of course, but I'm immensely grateful it's not held by the NHS."You're conflating sex and gender. It's a physical biological fact that there are only two sexes. I can entirely accept that there are people who have a strong feeling (calling it "knowledge" makes no difference whatsoever) that they are a sex that is not their physical biological sex and I also accept that in some cases the best way of dealing with that may be via medical transition. On the "knowledge" thing. If you have a male body and you say. "I know I am female", what you are saying is that you have an unshakeable personal internal feeling. So all you actually have knowledge of his your own feelings. It's not knowledge about anything external to you. So, if you say to me. "I know I am a woman", as a description of your personal feelings and beliefs , I will, of course, accept that. On the other hand, if you say. "I know I am a woman" as a description of something outside your mind, I won't necessarily accept that. It's a bit like belief in God. Someone can tell me they know God exists and I'll accept that as an accurate description of their feelings and beliefs.. However, I won't accept that God does actually exist, just because they say they know he does. | |||
"if your defining sex as binary then thats like a light switch either on or off and infact its more like a dimmer switch where there are people sitting somewhere in between both male and female ,genetically phsyiloically and mentally . scientists are now describing sex as a spectrum No they aren't. Human beings and other mammals reproduce by the conjunction of eggs and spermatozoa, those gametes being produced by females and males. No female can impregnate anyone and no male can give birth. Thus sex is binary. Less than a week since news broke that scientists have successfully reproduced from two female mice with no male at all. Frankenstein science in my opinion but that's your binary notion blown
Interesting!
But ready the articles about it, it's clear they proceed on the basis of there being two sexes. As I understand it, they take something from a stem cell from one female and place it in another female and they can produce only female offspring.
Hence we still have two sexes, only the males are cut out of the equation...
With the greatest respect, worldwide medical opinion is at odds with your own. Hence there is a worldwide protocol for dealing with Transgender people. I do understand why it's hard to grasp. Less than 1% of the entire population are gender incongruent to any degree. Less than that compelled to change it. For the remaining 99+%, there is simply no frame of reference that you could have that would allow you to know what it is to be Trans. It's not remotely a feeling BTW, it's as definite a knowledge as most people have of being either male or female. I think you are entitled to your opinion, of course, but I'm immensely grateful it's not held by the NHS.
You're conflating sex and gender.
It's a physical biological fact that there are only two sexes. I can entirely accept that there are people who have a strong feeling (calling it "knowledge" makes no difference whatsoever) that they are a sex that is not their physical biological sex and I also accept that in some cases the best way of dealing with that may be via medical transition.
On the "knowledge" thing. If you have a male body and you say. "I know I am female", what you are saying is that you have an unshakeable personal internal feeling. So all you actually have knowledge of his your own feelings. It's not knowledge about anything external to you.
So, if you say to me. "I know I am a woman", as a description of your personal feelings and beliefs , I will, of course, accept that.
On the other hand, if you say. "I know I am a woman" as a description of something outside your mind, I won't necessarily accept that.
It's a bit like belief in God. Someone can tell me they know God exists and I'll accept that as an accurate description of their feelings and beliefs.. However, I won't accept that God does actually exist, just because they say they know he does. "Your opinion is based on your experience of the world. That would appear, from your comments, to have been as part of the 99+% I mentioned. As a species, we are a bit more complicated than just male/female. There are a variety of different things that happen during our development. One of the significant theories as to why Transgender people occur and keep occurring is possible hormonal differences during pregnancy. The actual reason matters little because it just keeps happening. Worldwide. I am lucky in that I don't personally need you or anyone else to fully understand. I'm not entirely sure that you ever could as your life experience allows you the same certainty of things as I have. There's absolutely nothing wrong with that. Where you differ from many though, is that you are able to rationally discuss and explain your view. I'll still respectful disagree but I appreciate that very much. | |||
"if your defining sex as binary then thats like a light switch either on or off and infact its more like a dimmer switch where there are people sitting somewhere in between both male and female ,genetically phsyiloically and mentally . scientists are now describing sex as a spectrum No they aren't. Human beings and other mammals reproduce by the conjunction of eggs and spermatozoa, those gametes being produced by females and males. No female can impregnate anyone and no male can give birth. Thus sex is binary. Less than a week since news broke that scientists have successfully reproduced from two female mice with no male at all. Frankenstein science in my opinion but that's your binary notion blown
Interesting!
But ready the articles about it, it's clear they proceed on the basis of there being two sexes. As I understand it, they take something from a stem cell from one female and place it in another female and they can produce only female offspring.
Hence we still have two sexes, only the males are cut out of the equation...
With the greatest respect, worldwide medical opinion is at odds with your own. Hence there is a worldwide protocol for dealing with Transgender people. I do understand why it's hard to grasp. Less than 1% of the entire population are gender incongruent to any degree. Less than that compelled to change it. For the remaining 99+%, there is simply no frame of reference that you could have that would allow you to know what it is to be Trans. It's not remotely a feeling BTW, it's as definite a knowledge as most people have of being either male or female. I think you are entitled to your opinion, of course, but I'm immensely grateful it's not held by the NHS.
You're conflating sex and gender.
It's a physical biological fact that there are only two sexes. I can entirely accept that there are people who have a strong feeling (calling it "knowledge" makes no difference whatsoever) that they are a sex that is not their physical biological sex and I also accept that in some cases the best way of dealing with that may be via medical transition.
On the "knowledge" thing. If you have a male body and you say. "I know I am female", what you are saying is that you have an unshakeable personal internal feeling. So all you actually have knowledge of his your own feelings. It's not knowledge about anything external to you.
So, if you say to me. "I know I am a woman", as a description of your personal feelings and beliefs , I will, of course, accept that.
On the other hand, if you say. "I know I am a woman" as a description of something outside your mind, I won't necessarily accept that.
It's a bit like belief in God. Someone can tell me they know God exists and I'll accept that as an accurate description of their feelings and beliefs.. However, I won't accept that God does actually exist, just because they say they know he does.
Your opinion is based on your experience of the world. That would appear, from your comments, to have been as part of the 99+% I mentioned. As a species, we are a bit more complicated than just male/female. There are a variety of different things that happen during our development. One of the significant theories as to why Transgender people occur and keep occurring is possible hormonal differences during pregnancy. The actual reason matters little because it just keeps happening. Worldwide. I am lucky in that I don't personally need you or anyone else to fully understand. I'm not entirely sure that you ever could as your life experience allows you the same certainty of things as I have. There's absolutely nothing wrong with that. Where you differ from many though, is that you are able to rationally discuss and explain your view. I'll still respectful disagree but I appreciate that very much."The difficulty I have is that words describe objective categories. They have meanings independent of what particular individuals subjectively feel. Thus "woman" traditionally meant an adult human with ovaries, vagina etc. It followed from that that however much one might subjectively "know" one was a woman, if you didn't fit into the definition, as a matter, of objective fact, you were not a woman. I appreciate that words change meaning and it may be that the definition of. "woman" has changed, but there has to be some objective definition for the word to mean anything. And any objective definition means that some people will be excluded from the category even if they subjectively "know" they fit within it. Thus, my and your experience of the world is strictly irrelevant to this discussion. It's a matter of basic logic and how we use language. If a six foot bloke with a beard comes up to me and honestly says. "I know I am a woman", accepting that he is describing anything other than his own feelings is equivalent to someone else pointed to some grass and said "I know that grass is red" and accepting that they are making an accurate statement about external reality. | |||
"Thus, my and your experience of the world is strictly irrelevant to this discussion. It's a matter of basic logic and how we use language. If a six foot bloke with a beard comes up to me and honestly says. "I know I am a woman", accepting that he is describing anything other than his own feelings is equivalent to someone else pointed to some grass and said "I know that grass is red" and accepting that they are making an accurate statement about external reality. " Heteronormative people use the word "feelings" purely because they have no experience of what it is to be Transgender. It's just a lazy, lazy non-attempt to comprehend it. And your experience of the world is entirely relevant. It is exactly that that stops you from seeing it's not the same as everyone else's experience. But we'll stick with your only two sexes argument for now. That's the only two possibilities that can be considered, according to you. Explain just Intersex births then. Born with both sexual characteristics. Automatically a third category. And it's at that point your argument slips. We've just discounted that male and female are actually the only two options possible. Human biology is simply more complicated than you allow for. Healthy debate is great but it won't get me caught up on the weekend's US television so I'm going to do that instead. | |||
And that probably wouldn’t be a bad thing in the grand scheme of things .
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"Until Copernicus theorised and Galileo proved, it was undisputable fact that the stars, planets and our own sun went around the Earth. Until one can get out of binary thinking belief will never change. There are women born without ovaries and not able to have children for other reasons. Does that make them not a woman (in the traditional sense) because they cannot reproduce? There is a small part of the population that is Intersex who have both sets of reproductive organs, sometimes one set is more pronounced or its indertimate. Its also known that a lot of trans folk have a brain that functions as the gender they identify as. It is far from binary." i agree and as i put it earlier its not binary its a specrtum , some will grasp it some wont , i dont really give a damn | |||
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"Its gone a bit off topic .. "It has ... Well last night me and my wife watched it together , I’d already seen it . She is twenty years younger than me , so it was interesting to see it from her perspective . She said it was a very realistic programme , and that she kind of understood the Dad getting so angry , but like me wouldn’t condone smacking children . However she would totally support her son becoming a girl if that’s what he wanted without question .Interestingly we were both disciplined as kids with smacking being a regular occurrence . We both agreed we wouldn’t ever lay a hand on her son and never have . Certain things like trans , and smacking have moved forward in a very positive way sine the sixties , seventies and eighties . | |||
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"its getting better" certainly is | |||
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"my daughter has just come out and said shes bi sexual i dont have a problem with it bothed about other people we live in a small village and there opinions are quite old fashioned here" How old is she ...not that it makes a difference ... just curious . | |||
"my daughter has just come out and said shes bi sexual i dont have a problem with it bothed about other people we live in a small village and there opinions are quite old fashioned here" Is it village practise to go door to door espousing your sexual preferences ? If not don't worry bi's don't look much different to earthlings really. | |||
"my daughter has just come out and said shes bi sexual i dont have a problem with it bothed about other people we live in a small village and there opinions are quite old fashioned here Is it village practise to go door to door espousing your sexual preferences ? If not don't worry bi's don't look much different to earthlings really." This is exactly what we were saying the other day . When did it become the norm to tell everyone your sexual preference ? There are people I’ve known for thirty years plus and I have no ideas what they do with who behind closed doors . I know this is a bit off topic , with the lad becoming a lass in this series , but unless it’s actually a sex change , why does the world and his wife need to know ? | |||
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"Actually that's a good point _loswingers ... Unless your on fab ... then folk feel compelled to tell you they were martha but now called Arthur. . Or vice versa "Many feel ‘compelled ‘ because your potential partner may not want to enjoy the new you if they know what physical gender you were before. If you’re lucky enough that your transition has eradicated the old you then there is a school of thought that says morally you ought to tell a potential lover before you have sex with them so they have chance to make an informed choice. | |||
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"Final episode on tonight ...." i dont watch a lot of tele . But I must admit it's got me gripped | |||
"my daughter has just come out and said shes bi sexual i dont have a problem with it bothed about other people we live in a small village and there opinions are quite old fashioned here" Equality will happen when no-one feels the need to make any sort of declaration about their sexuality. I mean, do straight people feel the need to "come out" and declare their sexuality? No. So why is it expected of gay or bi people? | |||
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