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Muscle - consensus?
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By *risky_Mare OP Woman
over a year ago
...Up on the Downs |
Ok went back to a total body class yesterday after 6 months off for injury...feeling good next day, hardly any DOMS!
The class I used to go to was full on, but she did exercises in groups of 3 using different muscle groups, so you never felt any muscle was being really overloaded, though you were knackered by the end of the session and got one hell of a lot of reps done.
This local lady does a lot longer on one muscle group eg nearly 30 mins on legs, mostly squats and lunges, so you do feel more burn. I had to back off in the end because my quads had had enough, though it was only my first day back.
Which approach is more effective for toning (as opposed to bulk maybe?) has the jury returned a verdict yet?  |
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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago
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There’s no such thing as ‘toning’ a muscle can either get bigger, stay the same, or get smaller.
Also, DOMS is not an indication of an effective workout.
Either approach is likely to be enough to keep the majority of your muscle mass, ‘toning’ is going to be down to looking leaner. And the only way to do that is by dropping bodyfat. |
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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago
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Also, as you’re a lady, building significant muscle mass for you to look ‘bulky’ is going to be difficult at best. It’s not something you can do by accident, it takes a long time and a lot of consistency.
I’d be inclined to go to the class that you enjoy the most and are more likely to stick to |
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By *risky_Mare OP Woman
over a year ago
...Up on the Downs |
"There’s no such thing as ‘toning’ a muscle can either get bigger, stay the same, or get smaller.
Also, DOMS is not an indication of an effective workout.
"
No I realise - I had some trouble last year with it s was thrilled with hardly any after the first day back. |
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By *risky_Mare OP Woman
over a year ago
...Up on the Downs |
"Also, as you’re a lady, building significant muscle mass for you to look ‘bulky’ is going to be difficult at best. It’s not something you can do by accident, it takes a long time and a lot of consistency.
I’d be inclined to go to the class that you enjoy the most and are more likely to stick to"
OK, so no difference in efficacy approach. I prefer the one who does groups of 3, she made a full-on class a painless experience lol, but the local one is actually in the village, rather than 10 miles away! |
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By *risky_Mare OP Woman
over a year ago
...Up on the Downs |
"Anything that consistently and progressively stresses the muscle will tone it. You won’t bulk up unless you try - in terms of load, frequency and diet. "
Yes, just wanted to clarify that was not my aim as most guys will be going for bulk I would guess. |
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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago
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"So how do you increase mass but also drop body fat as I'm trying to bulk up train 5-6 days a week gaining mass ok but belly fat is hard to loose"
With great difficulty.
Gaining muscle requires excess calories.
Dropping fat requires a calorie deficiet.
See the issue?
It’s possible but it’s far more efficient to do one at a time. |
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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago
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"Also, as you’re a lady, building significant muscle mass for you to look ‘bulky’ is going to be difficult at best. It’s not something you can do by accident, it takes a long time and a lot of consistency.
I’d be inclined to go to the class that you enjoy the most and are more likely to stick to
OK, so no difference in efficacy approach. I prefer the one who does groups of 3, she made a full-on class a painless experience lol, but the local one is actually in the village, rather than 10 miles away!"
As far as holding onto your muscle mass? I’d say there’s very little difference.
I don’t know the full ins and outs of the classes but I’d suggest anything to burn calories is going to be helpful |
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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago
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"So bulk up to somewhere near and then drop the calories? Or loose the belly then bulk up ?"
I’d get lean first. I didn’t, but if I could again I would. |
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By *risky_Mare OP Woman
over a year ago
...Up on the Downs |
"Also, as you’re a lady, building significant muscle mass for you to look ‘bulky’ is going to be difficult at best. It’s not something you can do by accident, it takes a long time and a lot of consistency.
I’d be inclined to go to the class that you enjoy the most and are more likely to stick to
OK, so no difference in efficacy approach. I prefer the one who does groups of 3, she made a full-on class a painless experience lol, but the local one is actually in the village, rather than 10 miles away!
As far as holding onto your muscle mass? I’d say there’s very little difference.
I don’t know the full ins and outs of the classes but I’d suggest anything to burn calories is going to be helpful"
I wanted more than that - I started going when swimming, dancing and riding didn't give me the tone I wanted or target specific muscles...and actually thinking about it I do want gluteal bulk, I'm too quad dominant. |
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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago
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"So how do you increase mass but also drop body fat as I'm trying to bulk up train 5-6 days a week gaining mass ok but belly fat is hard to loose
With great difficulty.
Gaining muscle requires excess calories.
Dropping fat requires a calorie deficit. "
I have to question this. One can gain muscle without increasing calories. Perhaps change the composition of how you're getting the calories. Muscles need protein for growth/repair. Muscles need a greater amount of energy to sustain themselves, therefore will call upon the liver for the stored fat as glycogen (ie you don't have to supply the carbs for energy needed). This results loss of body fat. |
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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago
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"So how do you increase mass but also drop body fat as I'm trying to bulk up train 5-6 days a week gaining mass ok but belly fat is hard to loose
With great difficulty.
Gaining muscle requires excess calories.
Dropping fat requires a calorie deficit.
I have to question this. One can gain muscle without increasing calories. Perhaps change the composition of how you're getting the calories. Muscles need protein for growth/repair. Muscles need a greater amount of energy to sustain themselves, therefore will call upon the liver for the stored fat as glycogen (ie you don't have to supply the carbs for energy needed). This results loss of body fat."
I didn’t say it was impossible, I said it was inefficient.
Muscles need more than protein for growth also. Limiting insulin (which the above would do) has been shown to increase muscular protein breakdown, which is going to result in the loss of muscle mass at worst, and at best zero increase.
|
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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago
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"Also, as you’re a lady, building significant muscle mass for you to look ‘bulky’ is going to be difficult at best. It’s not something you can do by accident, it takes a long time and a lot of consistency.
I’d be inclined to go to the class that you enjoy the most and are more likely to stick to
OK, so no difference in efficacy approach. I prefer the one who does groups of 3, she made a full-on class a painless experience lol, but the local one is actually in the village, rather than 10 miles away!
As far as holding onto your muscle mass? I’d say there’s very little difference.
I don’t know the full ins and outs of the classes but I’d suggest anything to burn calories is going to be helpful
I wanted more than that - I started going when swimming, dancing and riding didn't give me the tone I wanted or target specific muscles...and actually thinking about it I do want gluteal bulk, I'm too quad dominant."
Well, resistance training, will, done properly, provide a better opportunity to add muscle to a specific area. However what and when and how is different for everyone.
I would say that I’ve found women generally respond better to higher volume, eg 15-20 rep sets. Although I’ve only helped out a couple of friends so it’s only an observation.
There’s more than a few ladies on here who train and obviously train well, maybe one of those could chime in with a routine? |
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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago
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"So how do you increase mass but also drop body fat as I'm trying to bulk up train 5-6 days a week gaining mass ok but belly fat is hard to loose
With great difficulty.
Gaining muscle requires excess calories.
Dropping fat requires a calorie deficit.
I have to question this. One can gain muscle without increasing calories. Perhaps change the composition of how you're getting the calories. Muscles need protein for growth/repair. Muscles need a greater amount of energy to sustain themselves, therefore will call upon the liver for the stored fat as glycogen (ie you don't have to supply the carbs for energy needed). This results loss of body fat.
I didn’t say it was impossible, I said it was inefficient.
Muscles need more than protein for growth also. Limiting insulin (which the above would do) has been shown to increase muscular protein breakdown, which is going to result in the loss of muscle mass at worst, and at best zero increase.
"
Please source that.
Using basic anatomy and physiology, insulin is the key to providing cells energy, therefore blood sugar from carbs will be used first before the liver's glycogen. If someone, like me, with an insulin sensitivity, it's a must to be low on carbs anyway. |
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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago
|
"So how do you increase mass but also drop body fat as I'm trying to bulk up train 5-6 days a week gaining mass ok but belly fat is hard to loose
With great difficulty.
Gaining muscle requires excess calories.
Dropping fat requires a calorie deficit.
I have to question this. One can gain muscle without increasing calories. Perhaps change the composition of how you're getting the calories. Muscles need protein for growth/repair. Muscles need a greater amount of energy to sustain themselves, therefore will call upon the liver for the stored fat as glycogen (ie you don't have to supply the carbs for energy needed). This results loss of body fat.
I didn’t say it was impossible, I said it was inefficient.
Muscles need more than protein for growth also. Limiting insulin (which the above would do) has been shown to increase muscular protein breakdown, which is going to result in the loss of muscle mass at worst, and at best zero increase.
Please source that.
Using basic anatomy and physiology, insulin is the key to providing cells energy, therefore blood sugar from carbs will be used first before the liver's glycogen. If someone, like me, with an insulin sensitivity, it's a must to be low on carbs anyway. "
What’s that got to do with it’s function in muscle protein synthesis?
Source? Try PMHC2804964, that’s got plenty of additional links in it too.
Again. Not impossible. Just not efficient. |
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By *risky_Mare OP Woman
over a year ago
...Up on the Downs |
"So how do you increase mass but also drop body fat as I'm trying to bulk up train 5-6 days a week gaining mass ok but belly fat is hard to loose
With great difficulty.
Gaining muscle requires excess calories.
Dropping fat requires a calorie deficit.
I have to question this. One can gain muscle without increasing calories. Perhaps change the composition of how you're getting the calories. Muscles need protein for growth/repair. Muscles need a greater amount of energy to sustain themselves, therefore will call upon the liver for the stored fat as glycogen (ie you don't have to supply the carbs for energy needed). This results loss of body fat.
I didn’t say it was impossible, I said it was inefficient.
Muscles need more than protein for growth also. Limiting insulin (which the above would do) has been shown to increase muscular protein breakdown, which is going to result in the loss of muscle mass at worst, and at best zero increase.
Please source that.
Using basic anatomy and physiology, insulin is the key to providing cells energy, therefore blood sugar from carbs will be used first before the liver's glycogen. If someone, like me, with an insulin sensitivity, it's a must to be low on carbs anyway.
What’s that got to do with it’s function in muscle protein synthesis?
Source? Try PMHC2804964, that’s got plenty of additional links in it too.
Again. Not impossible. Just not efficient. "
That ref isn't working, is the number right? |
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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago
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"So how do you increase mass but also drop body fat as I'm trying to bulk up train 5-6 days a week gaining mass ok but belly fat is hard to loose
With great difficulty.
Gaining muscle requires excess calories.
Dropping fat requires a calorie deficit.
I have to question this. One can gain muscle without increasing calories. Perhaps change the composition of how you're getting the calories. Muscles need protein for growth/repair. Muscles need a greater amount of energy to sustain themselves, therefore will call upon the liver for the stored fat as glycogen (ie you don't have to supply the carbs for energy needed). This results loss of body fat.
I didn’t say it was impossible, I said it was inefficient.
Muscles need more than protein for growth also. Limiting insulin (which the above would do) has been shown to increase muscular protein breakdown, which is going to result in the loss of muscle mass at worst, and at best zero increase.
Please source that.
Using basic anatomy and physiology, insulin is the key to providing cells energy, therefore blood sugar from carbs will be used first before the liver's glycogen. If someone, like me, with an insulin sensitivity, it's a must to be low on carbs anyway.
What’s that got to do with it’s function in muscle protein synthesis?
Source? Try PMHC2804964, that’s got plenty of additional links in it too.
Again. Not impossible. Just not efficient. "
Nothing showing up on Google I'm afraid. Pub Med research generally does. |
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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago
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I recommend Ashtanga yoga. It's dynamic and physically demanding and great for toning and building core strength - important if you spend a lot of time on horseback, as i'm sure you know.  |
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By *risky_Mare OP Woman
over a year ago
...Up on the Downs |
"I recommend Ashtanga yoga. It's dynamic and physically demanding and great for toning and building core strength - important if you spend a lot of time on horseback, as i'm sure you know. "
I don't know what Ashtanga yoga is, but years of lifting too many heavy bales mean my lumbar back will not allow me to sit like yoga requires, it totally kills me.  |
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"I recommend Ashtanga yoga. It's dynamic and physically demanding and great for toning and building core strength - important if you spend a lot of time on horseback, as i'm sure you know.
I don't know what Ashtanga yoga is, but years of lifting too many heavy bales mean my lumbar back will not allow me to sit like yoga requires, it totally kills me. "
Iyengar might be a better fit for you then. |
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By *risky_Mare OP Woman
over a year ago
...Up on the Downs |
"I recommend Ashtanga yoga. It's dynamic and physically demanding and great for toning and building core strength - important if you spend a lot of time on horseback, as i'm sure you know. "
Though actually riding (well) gives you great core strength and tone anyway it's my glutes that are under-used!  |
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I think the approach is about which you prefer. The results should be determined by the cumulative effect of whichever exercises have been done, albeit to fatigue in this instance.
Have you thought about what you mean by toned? Muscles exercised, somewhat conditioned and some bulk gained, albeit not massive amounts? Any body fat may mobilize due to recurrent aerobic activity.
The DOMS may still kick in 
I've been off for 2 weeks plus in Finland and Cyprus and dreading DOMS |
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By *risky_Mare OP Woman
over a year ago
...Up on the Downs |
"I think the approach is about which you prefer. The results should be determined by the cumulative effect of whichever exercises have been done, albeit to fatigue in this instance.
Have you thought about what you mean by toned? Muscles exercised, somewhat conditioned and some bulk gained, albeit not massive amounts? Any body fat may mobilize due to recurrent aerobic activity.
The DOMS may still kick in
I've been off for 2 weeks plus in Finland and Cyprus and dreading DOMS "
My quads are a little sore, but I went out and schooled a horse no problem so I am chuffed. I find L-carnitine and magnesium really help my muscle function - I do have to work round some metabolic issues.
My glutes can bulk as much as you like, not bothered what the abs do as long as they function well, and triceps I want to tone without bulk!
If I could find a 'standing yoga' class I'd be interested - tai chi has always appealed actually. I did a modified pilates class for a while, and found it easy because of the riding, so didn't really see the point. |
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By *risky_Mare OP Woman
over a year ago
...Up on the Downs |
"So how do you increase mass but also drop body fat as I'm trying to bulk up train 5-6 days a week gaining mass ok but belly fat is hard to loose
With great difficulty.
Gaining muscle requires excess calories.
Dropping fat requires a calorie deficit.
I have to question this. One can gain muscle without increasing calories. Perhaps change the composition of how you're getting the calories. Muscles need protein for growth/repair. Muscles need a greater amount of energy to sustain themselves, therefore will call upon the liver for the stored fat as glycogen (ie you don't have to supply the carbs for energy needed). This results loss of body fat.
I didn’t say it was impossible, I said it was inefficient.
Muscles need more than protein for growth also. Limiting insulin (which the above would do) has been shown to increase muscular protein breakdown, which is going to result in the loss of muscle mass at worst, and at best zero increase.
"
Your ref does not say this though - any other refs?? Insulin spikes may help anabolism, along with amino acid intake, but I haven't seen a reference to insulin control resulting in catabolism? |
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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago
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"Ashtanga yoga provides a great opportunity for a workout as well as improving flexibility - that's a good call "
A good teacher will always take a student's abilities or physical problems into account. If there is a particular asana (posture) that you struggle with they can easily be skipped. |
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By *risky_Mare OP Woman
over a year ago
...Up on the Downs |
"Ashtanga yoga provides a great opportunity for a workout as well as improving flexibility - that's a good call
A good teacher will always take a student's abilities or physical problems into account. If there is a particular asana (posture) that you struggle with they can easily be skipped."
Yea, but I've never seen a yoga class that didn't sit?? (not that I have tried many, to be truthful). |
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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago
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"So how do you increase mass but also drop body fat as I'm trying to bulk up train 5-6 days a week gaining mass ok but belly fat is hard to loose
With great difficulty.
Gaining muscle requires excess calories.
Dropping fat requires a calorie deficit.
I have to question this. One can gain muscle without increasing calories. Perhaps change the composition of how you're getting the calories. Muscles need protein for growth/repair. Muscles need a greater amount of energy to sustain themselves, therefore will call upon the liver for the stored fat as glycogen (ie you don't have to supply the carbs for energy needed). This results loss of body fat.
I didn’t say it was impossible, I said it was inefficient.
Muscles need more than protein for growth also. Limiting insulin (which the above would do) has been shown to increase muscular protein breakdown, which is going to result in the loss of muscle mass at worst, and at best zero increase.
Your ref does not say this though - any other refs?? Insulin spikes may help anabolism, along with amino acid intake, but I haven't seen a reference to insulin control resulting in catabolism?"
Pretty much the first line states “insulin deficiency leads to a protein catabolic state with loss of muscle mass”
It’s widely understood that increasing insulin (at the right time) leads to an increase is muscle mass.
I’ll see if I can dig out a more appropriate study when I have 5 |
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By *risky_Mare OP Woman
over a year ago
...Up on the Downs |
"So how do you increase mass but also drop body fat as I'm trying to bulk up train 5-6 days a week gaining mass ok but belly fat is hard to loose
With great difficulty.
Gaining muscle requires excess calories.
Dropping fat requires a calorie deficit.
I have to question this. One can gain muscle without increasing calories. Perhaps change the composition of how you're getting the calories. Muscles need protein for growth/repair. Muscles need a greater amount of energy to sustain themselves, therefore will call upon the liver for the stored fat as glycogen (ie you don't have to supply the carbs for energy needed). This results loss of body fat.
I didn’t say it was impossible, I said it was inefficient.
Muscles need more than protein for growth also. Limiting insulin (which the above would do) has been shown to increase muscular protein breakdown, which is going to result in the loss of muscle mass at worst, and at best zero increase.
Your ref does not say this though - any other refs?? Insulin spikes may help anabolism, along with amino acid intake, but I haven't seen a reference to insulin control resulting in catabolism?
Pretty much the first line states “insulin deficiency leads to a protein catabolic state with loss of muscle mass”
"
Ah yeah but that's insulin dependant diabetes, normal people can't get into a deficiency state and insulin resistant peeps nearly always have an excess they need to control.
Anyway, protein causes insulin release too, so I'm pretty sure carbs are not a requirement, though I haven't studied the subject of muscle building per se. |
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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago
|
"So how do you increase mass but also drop body fat as I'm trying to bulk up train 5-6 days a week gaining mass ok but belly fat is hard to loose
With great difficulty.
Gaining muscle requires excess calories.
Dropping fat requires a calorie deficit.
I have to question this. One can gain muscle without increasing calories. Perhaps change the composition of how you're getting the calories. Muscles need protein for growth/repair. Muscles need a greater amount of energy to sustain themselves, therefore will call upon the liver for the stored fat as glycogen (ie you don't have to supply the carbs for energy needed). This results loss of body fat.
I didn’t say it was impossible, I said it was inefficient.
Muscles need more than protein for growth also. Limiting insulin (which the above would do) has been shown to increase muscular protein breakdown, which is going to result in the loss of muscle mass at worst, and at best zero increase.
Your ref does not say this though - any other refs?? Insulin spikes may help anabolism, along with amino acid intake, but I haven't seen a reference to insulin control resulting in catabolism?
Pretty much the first line states “insulin deficiency leads to a protein catabolic state with loss of muscle mass”
Ah yeah but that's insulin dependant diabetes, normal people can't get into a deficiency state and insulin resistant peeps nearly always have an excess they need to control.
Anyway, protein causes insulin release too, so I'm pretty sure carbs are not a requirement, though I haven't studied the subject of muscle building per se."
Ive not mentioned. I simply said that you need more than protein to build muscle.
Anyway, we’re getting into the minutia here.
Eat well.
Lift more than you did the time before
Muscle will grow.
There’s ways to increase the effociency at which it’s done but in reality, most people can’t do the basics. Which is why guns are full of people who look the same now and they did a year ago.
Just stick at it,  |
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By *risky_Mare OP Woman
over a year ago
...Up on the Downs |
"So how do you increase mass but also drop body fat as I'm trying to bulk up train 5-6 days a week gaining mass ok but belly fat is hard to loose
With great difficulty.
Gaining muscle requires excess calories.
Dropping fat requires a calorie deficit.
I have to question this. One can gain muscle without increasing calories. Perhaps change the composition of how you're getting the calories. Muscles need protein for growth/repair. Muscles need a greater amount of energy to sustain themselves, therefore will call upon the liver for the stored fat as glycogen (ie you don't have to supply the carbs for energy needed). This results loss of body fat.
I didn’t say it was impossible, I said it was inefficient.
Muscles need more than protein for growth also. Limiting insulin (which the above would do) has been shown to increase muscular protein breakdown, which is going to result in the loss of muscle mass at worst, and at best zero increase.
Your ref does not say this though - any other refs?? Insulin spikes may help anabolism, along with amino acid intake, but I haven't seen a reference to insulin control resulting in catabolism?
Pretty much the first line states “insulin deficiency leads to a protein catabolic state with loss of muscle mass”
Ah yeah but that's insulin dependant diabetes, normal people can't get into a deficiency state and insulin resistant peeps nearly always have an excess they need to control.
Anyway, protein causes insulin release too, so I'm pretty sure carbs are not a requirement, though I haven't studied the subject of muscle building per se.
Ive not mentioned. I simply said that you need more than protein to build muscle.
Anyway, we’re getting into the minutia here.
Eat well.
Lift more than you did the time before
Muscle will grow.
There’s ways to increase the effociency at which it’s done but in reality, most people can’t do the basics. Which is why guns are full of people who look the same now and they did a year ago.
"
Indeed, which I want to avoid - but I am not lifting per se, just doing floor work and using very small weights. |
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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago
|
"Ashtanga yoga provides a great opportunity for a workout as well as improving flexibility - that's a good call
A good teacher will always take a student's abilities or physical problems into account. If there is a particular asana (posture) that you struggle with they can easily be skipped.
Yea, but I've never seen a yoga class that didn't sit?? (not that I have tried many, to be truthful)."
If it eases posture a block can be used to sit on. In the classes i do there's actually very little sitting. You don't know if you don't try. |
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By *imiUKMan
over a year ago
Hereford |
"So how do you increase mass but also drop body fat as I'm trying to bulk up train 5-6 days a week gaining mass ok but belly fat is hard to loose
With great difficulty.
Gaining muscle requires excess calories.
Dropping fat requires a calorie deficit.
I have to question this. One can gain muscle without increasing calories. Perhaps change the composition of how you're getting the calories. Muscles need protein for growth/repair. Muscles need a greater amount of energy to sustain themselves, therefore will call upon the liver for the stored fat as glycogen (ie you don't have to supply the carbs for energy needed). This results loss of body fat.
I didn’t say it was impossible, I said it was inefficient.
Muscles need more than protein for growth also. Limiting insulin (which the above would do) has been shown to increase muscular protein breakdown, which is going to result in the loss of muscle mass at worst, and at best zero increase.
"
Agree - recomps are very long processes and people tend to have consistency issues eating at maintenance over a very long period of time. |
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By *risky_Mare OP Woman
over a year ago
...Up on the Downs |
"Ashtanga yoga provides a great opportunity for a workout as well as improving flexibility - that's a good call
A good teacher will always take a student's abilities or physical problems into account. If there is a particular asana (posture) that you struggle with they can easily be skipped.
Yea, but I've never seen a yoga class that didn't sit?? (not that I have tried many, to be truthful).
If it eases posture a block can be used to sit on. In the classes i do there's actually very little sitting. You don't know if you don't try. "
I haven't tried many I admit - the last one I tried I had to leave after about 10 mins cos it was all sitting. As always it's the quality of the teacher I guess. |
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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago
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"Ashtanga yoga provides a great opportunity for a workout as well as improving flexibility - that's a good call
A good teacher will always take a student's abilities or physical problems into account. If there is a particular asana (posture) that you struggle with they can easily be skipped.
Yea, but I've never seen a yoga class that didn't sit?? (not that I have tried many, to be truthful).
If it eases posture a block can be used to sit on. In the classes i do there's actually very little sitting. You don't know if you don't try.
I haven't tried many I admit - the last one I tried I had to leave after about 10 mins cos it was all sitting. As always it's the quality of the teacher I guess."
Always i'm afraid. |
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