FabSwingers.com > Forums > The Lounge > Cameron - Villain or hero?

Cameron - Villain or hero?

By (user no longer on site) OP over a year ago

Has Cameron just played a 'blinder' in Europe or has he naively relegated us to a second tier player in Europe by pandering to his back benchers?

Hero or Villain?

Reply privately, Reply in forum +quote or View forums list

By (user no longer on site) over a year ago

Its a brave move.

How long has the country moaned its losing its identity? How many people went up in arms when the Euro was introduced? How many have said that Britain was an Island of its own and should have its own rules and regulations?

Now it looks like as someone makes a stand and protects our heritage and future, its a case of damned if we do and damned if we don't outlook.

Reply privately, Reply in forum +quote or View forums list

By (user no longer on site) over a year ago

To be honest I tired of the whole subject, I always felt either we should be completely in or completely out.

Reply privately, Reply in forum +quote or View forums list

By *he BananamanMan over a year ago

WORCESTERSHIRE

well we do seem to be paying billions£££ to europe and for what?,the EU have never been able to pass off the book keeping as legal and above board which leaves an awful lot to be desired.

also the EU seems to want to dictate everything that we can see or do!,power of lightbulbs,shape of bananas,silly things like that and insisting we employ foreign workers and house them before the native british!,that surely cannot be right right can it?,labour had blindly followed the EU directive like little lambs and it is high time someone stood up for the rights and well being of british people and jobs for british people!.

Reply privately, Reply in forum +quote or View forums list

By *ouple in LancashireCouple over a year ago

in Lancashire

"well we do seem to be paying billions£££ to europe and for what?,the EU have never been able to pass off the book keeping as legal and above board which leaves an awful lot to be desired.

where in any EU directive does it say we should house 'foreign workers before the native british'?

'our dave' has looked after his pals in the square mile, end of..

Reply privately, Reply in forum +quote or View forums list

By *iewMan over a year ago
Forum Mod

Angus & Findhorn

Thumbs up from me.

Reply privately, Reply in forum +quote or View forums list

By *ouple in LancashireCouple over a year ago

in Lancashire

bit early to say atm, could be good long term as it looks like the 'eurozone' is on the edge of going pear shaped.

still cant see the imf, usa, china and others letting it collapse as it may lead to a depression globally..

Reply privately, Reply in forum +quote or View forums list

By *ucky_LadsCouple (MM) over a year ago

Kidderminster+ surrounding areas.

"well we do seem to be paying billions£££ to europe and for what?,the EU have never been able to pass off the book keeping as legal and above board which leaves an awful lot to be desired.

where in any EU directive does it say we should house 'foreign workers before the native british'?

'our dave' has looked after his pals in the square mile, end of.."

a company in stoke on trent put in a bid for work in the newly built bham library,was for shelving & such like,the contract went to company in sweden!,not because it was was cheaper or better,nor was it cos sweden is nearer!,the company in stoke can deliver a lot easier as only 45 minutes from bham!,why was that work given to swedish company?,because of the complex eu rules that the companies have to adhere to when tendering for work contracts,it could have provided work for 100s of people in stoke on trent which surely needs the injection!.

witness also the bombardier debacle,the company lost out to provide rolling stock for the cross city link now being built in london,the contract went to a german company who had already screwed this country for billions!,the jobs would have kept 1000's of workers busy for a few years at the works in derby but now are looking forward to the dole and a bleak christmas & new year!,that contract again was not the best but because of eu complexities meant it went to overseas!,it's high time we looked after our own industries instead of listening and being railroaded by the french & german lead eu.

Reply privately, Reply in forum +quote or View forums list

By *otorcyclerobMan over a year ago

Southport

we're already in a global depression.

All Dave has done is take us out of the talks. If the Euro ship sinks our little boat will be sucked down in the wake of it. We're just as vulnerable as we were before it's just that we wont be able to put our "two penneth" into any decisions.

Like it or not we trade with europe and it makes sense to be a part of how it works. I'm currently working on a new business project and though I could trade nicely just in the UK 96% of my potential market are in 5 toerh countries in Euro land. The rules might seem petty at times but they work to our advantage just as much.

Fingers crossed this doesn't turn sour :-S

Reply privately, Reply in forum +quote or View forums list

By (user no longer on site) over a year ago

in or out i say,no in between,still does not alter the fact the man is a tosser

Reply privately, Reply in forum +quote or View forums list

By *uckoo clockCouple over a year ago

Merseyside

About time we had a british pm with some bollocks (pardon my french, or should i say eurospeak).

Being british dont mean we cannot embrace Europe but neither do we want to get sucked into the relentless pursuit of a Euope where we are dictated to by the 'thought police 'in brussels !!

Reply privately, Reply in forum +quote or View forums list

By *teborahCouple over a year ago

warrington

He may be showing signs of "Growing a pair" and not before time!

Reply privately, Reply in forum +quote or View forums list

By *ottyhunkCouple over a year ago

Leyburn

"About time we had a british pm with some bollocks (pardon my french, or should i say eurospeak).

Being british dont mean we cannot embrace Europe but neither do we want to get sucked into the relentless pursuit of a Euope where we are dictated to by the 'thought police 'in brussels !! "

Agree with the above!

Reply privately, Reply in forum +quote or View forums list

By *lassic1Man over a year ago

bellshill

"To be honest I tired of the whole subject, I always felt either we should be completely in or completely out."

Yes completely in for me

Reply privately, Reply in forum +quote or View forums list

By *ouple in LancashireCouple over a year ago

in Lancashire

"About time we had a british pm with some bollocks (pardon my french, or should i say eurospeak).

Being british dont mean we cannot embrace Europe but neither do we want to get sucked into the relentless pursuit of a Euope where we are dictated to by the 'thought police 'in brussels !! "

his bollocks are firmly held by the fact that the tories get about 50% of their funding from the 'city'..

he and his 'class' will do ok after whatever happens, same as they do out of most turmoil..prosper on the backs of 'you and i'

it wont be his kids that cant afford to go to uni..

it wont be his friends who get laid off (and if they do they will be looked after by 'their own')..

Reply privately, Reply in forum +quote or View forums list

By (user no longer on site) over a year ago

all be it public school bolloks, sorry guys , i think he is a spineless git ,who if he does grow balls it will only be to suit a certian few ,but i cant see it

Reply privately, Reply in forum +quote or View forums list

By (user no longer on site) over a year ago

well said surry ,took the words out of my mouth

Reply privately, Reply in forum +quote or View forums list

By *uckoo clockCouple over a year ago

Merseyside

Well of course he is a Tory and looks after his own. But at least we know that. As a life long former Labour supporter i prefer him to that liar Blair and his mate the weasel Brown !!

Reply privately, Reply in forum +quote or View forums list

By (user no longer on site) over a year ago

"well we do seem to be paying billions£££ to europe and for what?,the EU have never been able to pass off the book keeping as legal and above board which leaves an awful lot to be desired.

A Daily Mail readers _iew of the EU. The EU is our biggest trading partner and a awful lot of UK based companies are owned by EU based companies, UK owned companies receive billions in EU grants. A awful lot of workers rights have come about as a result of membership of the EU. We should be doing everything we can to protect the Euro, should it fail we will all be impacted by failing banks and increases in the interest rate. The regulation and taxes the EU wanted would have stopped a re-occurrence of the Credit Crunch crash, but we are scared to stand up to the banks and say No

Reply privately, Reply in forum +quote or View forums list

By (user no longer on site) over a year ago

Its a difficult one to determine. On the face of it its a good short term move for the public. I say short term because we will be saving money by not throwing it in the EU but long term we could be affected by trade. Its a hard one to call. Will be interesting for the future.

Raj

p.s FTSE100 is up and so too are the banks... looks like the markets approved of the decision. Will see at 2.30 when the US market opens

Reply privately, Reply in forum +quote or View forums list

By *ouple in LancashireCouple over a year ago

in Lancashire

"Well of course he is a Tory and looks after his own. But at least we know that. As a life long former Labour supporter i prefer him to that liar Blair and his mate the weasel Brown !!"

you mean 'tory b-liar', who modelled himself on thatcher...

'our dave' seems to have modelled himself on both also, but he has less balls than maggie..

could all be a ploy cos if we do have a referendum that may split the coalition, cant see many lib dems siding with the tories over that one..

coalition collapses, a strong 'our dave' actually gets a majority on the back of the no vote gained for him by the red tops..

clegg will defect to labour or be given a seat in the lords cos he is for the chop at the next general election anyway..

then the tories really go to town on the public sector for their pals in business..

fuck it am off to the pub lol

Reply privately, Reply in forum +quote or View forums list

By (user no longer on site) over a year ago

Just looked through what happened, hero or villain? neither he went to the meeting with the intention of blackmailing them to provide some extra privileges for the stock market traders in London.

They wouldn’t be blackmailed so kicked him out…

Now he is saying he did it intentionally! Cameron LOST, Sarkozy said weeks ago that UK should be excluded from the Euro decisions, and now has what he wanted.

Of course the UK will still pay money into the EEC if the Euro crashes then we will pay a lot more in real terms. How can that be claimed as anything but LOST.

Reply privately, Reply in forum +quote or View forums list

By *atisfy janeWoman over a year ago

Torquay

Short of dragging us into the Euro I can't see how Cameron could have acted in any other way to be honest, I would suggest World Wide Free Trade would be a suitable alternative to the EU free trade agreements.....it will happen, but probably more likely in our grandchildrens time.

Reply privately, Reply in forum +quote or View forums list

By (user no longer on site) over a year ago

"Well of course he is a Tory and looks after his own. But at least we know that. As a life long former Labour supporter i prefer him to that liar Blair and his mate the weasel Brown !!"

Just wondering how you can be both a life long supporter and a former supporter ? I suspect you have died and come back as a Tory....

Reply privately, Reply in forum +quote or View forums list

By (user no longer on site) OP over a year ago

Love him or hate him if it wasn't for Gordon Brown we would already be in the Euro!

Reply privately, Reply in forum +quote or View forums list

By *littylikka69Man over a year ago

West Midlands

" Sarkozy said weeks ago that UK should be excluded from the Euro decisions, and now has what he wanted.

Of course the UK will still pay money into the EEC if the Euro crashes then we will pay a lot more in real terms. How can that be claimed as anything but LOST. "

looks like whenever those terrible words EU are mentioned it costs uk money!,we seem to be pouring billions into this bottomless pit and getting very little in return as the german-french alliance seems to want to dominate the world!,better of without the french for sure,look what they do every holiday time to british holiday makers by blocking the ports and disrupting airspace stopping our holidays to europe!,sarky-cozy can turn on a sixpence and stab you in the

back and the germans will manipulate him to do so!.

Reply privately, Reply in forum +quote or View forums list

By (user no longer on site) over a year ago

There has always been some ambiguity as to what the 'EU' is. Is it the land mass of Europe? Or the countries who have signed up to the Maastricht Treaty? Or the 17 countries that adopted the Euro?

27 countries were supposed to agree to ANY changes to the treaty but when push came to shove Germany & France decided that those rules could be sidestepped, which effectively made the treaty worthless.

When the Euro was first put forward as a single currency there was supposed to be a stringent set of criteria for joining it, one of which was financial transparency, yet when Germany & France were asked for their 'accounts' they declined to open them to scrutiny, which in turn allowed Greece and Italy to do the same - and that's what led them to where they are now. Yet we were still being asked to bail out Euro countries to the tune of billions of pounds without getting anything in return, and Cameron has said that that is no longer good enough.

Merkel & Sarkozy have declared that there nothing on offer for Britain so Cameron has said 'up yours then', and rightly so. If your neighbour asked to borrow £1,000 from you you would be right in asking for something in return, if only to have all your money back at some point in the future. If your neighbour then said, "Sorry, you're not getting it back," you'd tell him to bugger off.

The Europhiles will now say that we lose trading markets within the Eurozone but if that happened it would be in effect placing sanctions on the UK and that's a dangerous road for the Eurozone to go down, but we in turn can open up markets outside of Europe previously closed to us because of EU legislation that favoured countries within the EU.

Cameron may have isolated the UK from the Eurozone but as one door closes another always opens and we'll find trade elsewhere at prices suited to us, and in the double positive, we can tell Europe to piss off the next time they want one of their own countries bailed out.

Fuck 'em I say, let them deal with their own problems because at the end of the day we still spend Sterling over here, not the fookin Euro.

Reply privately, Reply in forum +quote or View forums list

By (user no longer on site) over a year ago

The Germans are probably the strongest at the moment with regards to calling the shots. The little Frenchman (let's name him Bonaparte for now), wants to 'cosey' up to them because France is on the verge of losing its credit rating, in fact the whole of the eurozone is. All that can be said is it's good we're not part of it at the moment.

I think the Germans just want to control everybody's affairs in the Euro, and Cameron's making sure we're fully safeguarded.

Wait a minute!!? Some echoes from history here, isn't there?

Reply privately, Reply in forum +quote or View forums list

By (user no longer on site) over a year ago

"The Germans are probably the strongest at the moment with regards to calling the shots. The little Frenchman (let's name him Bonaparte for now), wants to 'cosey' up to them because France is on the verge of losing its credit rating, in fact the whole of the eurozone is. All that can be said is it's good we're not part of it at the moment.

I think the Germans just want to control everybody's affairs in the Euro, and Cameron's making sure we're fully safeguarded.

Wait a minute!!? Some echoes from history here, isn't there? "

Germany wont go short as they have gold reserves that they stole in WW2 and priceless art to sell when they get finanially strained.

France are as pliable as plasticine and kiss whoevers arse is in power.

At least Britain has made some sort of stand, whichever or however way it goes wont be determined until a year or two down the line.

Reply privately, Reply in forum +quote or View forums list

By (user no longer on site) OP over a year ago

Cameron had no other option.

Any new Treaty of the EU involving the UK that doesnt have safeguards to protect erosion of sovereignty MUST be put to referendum, it's the law.

If he provokes a referendum he will bring down the coalition and therefore his government. His nightmare scenario would have been if the other leaders had given into his concessions, he would then have struggled to come up with a reason not to sign.

If he had signed anything his backbenchers would have rebelled and forced a referendum.

Cameron was given a way out and took it, Sarkozy also got what he wanted but that's another story.

Reply privately, Reply in forum +quote or View forums list

By *abioMan over a year ago

Newcastle and Gateshead

the problem with what he did is basically isolated britain from the rest of europe....

I hope that history doesn't repeat themselves.. in the fact that UK could have joined the then common market in 56 and said no.... then basically had to go cap in hand and beg to join in 72....

the thing now is that being on the outside, they are in no position to at least have a voice in the direction in which europe is heading.....

the smart choice would have been to put it to the public as to keep what we have or take the new treaty (not whether we are in or not... that would be a diaster)

i just find it ironic that the stumbling block was protecting the very banking institutions that basically put us all in this mess in the first place.....

its a gamble... i just hope britain don't have to go begging cap in hand again...

remember that 40% of all exports go to EU countries... let just hope that all the eurozone countries decide not to just do internal business with each other.....

Reply privately, Reply in forum +quote or View forums list

By *atisfy janeWoman over a year ago

Torquay

"the problem with what he did is basically isolated britain from the rest of europe....

I hope that history doesn't repeat themselves.. in the fact that UK could have joined the then common market in 56 and said no.... then basically had to go cap in hand and beg to join in 72....

the thing now is that being on the outside, they are in no position to at least have a voice in the direction in which europe is heading.....

the smart choice would have been to put it to the public as to keep what we have or take the new treaty (not whether we are in or not... that would be a diaster)

i just find it ironic that the stumbling block was protecting the very banking institutions that basically put us all in this mess in the first place.....

its a gamble... i just hope britain don't have to go begging cap in hand again...

remember that 40% of all exports go to EU countries... let just hope that all the eurozone countries decide not to just do internal business with each other....."

Thankfully the EU will not be able to impose import sanctions or tariffs on UK goods under EU law, which as you have pointed out, with around 40% of our exports going into the EU....it's just as well!

The Germans and French fancy a two tier EU alright....but they will find it all but impossible to implement it as the UK holds that precious veto card.

Personally I am worried that the City will see Cameron's stance as giving them even more rope to hang us all with....

Reply privately, Reply in forum +quote or View forums list

By *ucky_LadsCouple (MM) over a year ago

Kidderminster+ surrounding areas.

could you imagine if a labour government had been at the EU meeting fighting for us the british public?,tony b'liar would have signed anything they put him in front of him (without even reading what it said!)as long as he could do his cheshire cat grin whilst signing for photographers.

moron brown would have said no matter what it says will sign!,but i will come in tomorrow by the back door tomorrow so the british public don't see me signing it.

Reply privately, Reply in forum +quote or View forums list

By *abioMan over a year ago

Newcastle and Gateshead

"could you imagine if a labour government had been at the EU meeting fighting for us the british public?,tony b'liar would have signed anything they put him in front of him (without even reading what it said!)as long as he could do his cheshire cat grin whilst signing for photographers.

moron brown would have said no matter what it says will sign!,but i will come in tomorrow by the back door tomorrow so the british public don't see me signing it."

i am really trying not to get "political" ... i am trying to put across the way i see it.... he could have been smart and gone into that meeting with alliances.. with sen,hungary,denmark,the chech republic... but the way he did it misjudged the mood and alienated everyone and drove them the other way

i don't see how that helped...

like i said, i think those who want out don't actually realise what that would mean in the real world.... idealistic but nieve...

Reply privately, Reply in forum +quote or View forums list

By (user no longer on site) over a year ago

Fabio, Britain has long stood alone with Europe willing us to fail. Not one single country in the Eurozone want to remember the debt they owe this small island for saving them from a Nazi Germany 60 years ago. We had a mountain of debt to pay the Americans for their assistance in WW" and we've only just paid it off, yet Europe have made no such overtures to settle a debt that was truly theirs, instead they have tried to flex their collective muscle and push Britain around.

Who says we need Europe anyway. They daren't impose sanctions on the UK as that would be breaking so many laws they would find themselves in the international law courts so fast it would make their heads swim.

Did you see the way that smug prick Sarckozy purposefully ignored David Cameron as they passed each other? The man is a buffoon who is struggling to hold onto power in his own country so his anti-British stance will go down well with the French electorate, and I say to them that WE remember all we've done for Europe in the past even if they don't, but we will remember what they've done more recently too.

UKIP must be dreading the next round of elections as each of the main parties will now be rushing to get their anti-Europe policies put together and that's going to firmly push UKIP into the barren wastes that is no man's land.

..And while we're at it we should be making plans to put the same border controls on European citizens as we do for the rest of the world.

Reply privately, Reply in forum +quote or View forums list

By *abioMan over a year ago

Newcastle and Gateshead

"Fabio, Britain has long stood alone with Europe willing us to fail. Not one single country in the Eurozone want to remember the debt they owe this small island for saving them from a Nazi Germany 60 years ago. We had a mountain of debt to pay the Americans for their assistance in WW" and we've only just paid it off, yet Europe have made no such overtures to settle a debt that was truly theirs, instead they have tried to flex their collective muscle and push Britain around.

..And while we're at it we should be making plans to put the same border controls on European citizens as we do for the rest of the world."

you know my politics is a lot more american than british... so I try to speak of this from a more neutral stance...

you mention 60 years ago... you know what... times change, you have to adapt and there is a saying that is it better to be on the inside looking out, than to be on the outside looking in

how long do people have to be "thankful" for???

ask business is they think "we need europe".... what do you think the answer would be?

Reply privately, Reply in forum +quote or View forums list

By (user no longer on site) over a year ago

Its difficult to say at the moment, but its definitely a bold move.

Reply privately, Reply in forum +quote or View forums list

By (user no longer on site) over a year ago

That's the big scare tactic though isn't it - that we will somehow be left behind with a mountain of produce we can't sell.

We don't have an industry to speak of anymore so that's a moot point. Our golden chalice lies in our position as the financial centre of the world and that's what 'Merckozy' want to get their hands on so much. If we permit the levy they want to impose on financial transactions an additional £35bn will be contributed to Euro coffers each year, and just how much of that will come winging it's way back to the UK? Nothing. Not a penny of it.

So 40% of our trade is done with Europe, that means 60% ISN'T and we can develop those markets further as that is one our biggest skills, collectively.

If Europe ever wanted to win over the British public they couldn't have done any more than they have today to push us further away, and I am glad we can finally tell them to go ..f.f.figure!

Reply privately, Reply in forum +quote or View forums list

By (user no longer on site) OP over a year ago

I agree that those who want out of the EU are naive, you won't hear many business leaders banging that drum!

As for bringing up the war......come on, things have moved on a little.

Politically Cameron did what his party wanted him to do. Practically he has burnt bridges. As Fabio said he could have approached this is a more 'statesmen' like manner and formed alliances and negotiated to maintain influence.

He has taken a big gamble in my book, time will determine whether he's made the right move.

Reply privately, Reply in forum +quote or View forums list

By (user no longer on site) over a year ago

"I agree that those who want out of the EU are naive, you won't hear many business leaders banging that drum!

As for bringing up the war......come on, things have moved on a little.

He has taken a big gamble in my book, time will determine whether he's made the right move. "

We celebrated 100 years since the outbreak of WW1 just this year, so it's not a forgotten issue, and Europe owes this island a huge debt. I'm not saying they have to pander to our every whim but you'd think that the sacrifice British men & women have made over the years should count for something, if only an unbreakable bond between Europe and the UK, but Sarkozy has a known dislike of anything British and we have subsidised French farmers to sit on their arses for far too long while French blockades prevent British produce from entering mainland Europe. We have allowed Spanish trawlers to poach in our waters without any sort of recrimination from Brussels and our fishing fleet lies rotting in their harbours because of EU quotas.

And still 'Merkozy' won't concede one little iddy point to Britain in that we wish to regulate our own financial services industry.

America didn't tell us to forget what we owe them and we paid every single dime of it, trillions of dollars were repaid to the US for their assistance in WW2 and that was only paid off a few years ago, so yes, it is relevant today.

Europe's crisis was brought about by allowing countries to adopt the Euro without meeting the specific criteria set out in Masstricht for joining it, the banking crisis was merely the catalyst for something that was always going to happen anyway, and even now the Eurozone countries think they have saved the Euro but now they won't have our support, and the problems in Italy, Greece, Ireland, Spain & Portugal didn't disappear overnight.

They'll rue the day they forced our hand and they'll have learned a lesson that we will not be pushed around.

Reply privately, Reply in forum +quote or View forums list

By (user no longer on site) over a year ago

now we know how Alex Ferguson feels not being in the Euro

Reply privately, Reply in forum +quote or View forums list

By *atisfy janeWoman over a year ago

Torquay

"They'll rue the day they forced our hand and they'll have learned a lesson that we will not be pushed around."

The Germans must be quaking in their boots after reading that.....

I don't think Cameron had much legroom to play around with today, he played a hand that only time will tell if it was a bold move or a massive mistake...

But to suggest that the Germans will ever rue the day for today standing strong for their own position, I really don't think that is likely.

They will continue to hold all the best cards all the time they have such a strong manufacturing, scientific, and engineering base.

Reply privately, Reply in forum +quote or View forums list

By (user no longer on site) over a year ago

well said wishy

Reply privately, Reply in forum +quote or View forums list

By (user no longer on site) over a year ago

hero !!! its not pandering to anything its doing whats right for us in my book , i have no love for europe but its a neccessary evil .

Reply privately, Reply in forum +quote or View forums list

By *ara JTV/TS over a year ago

Bristol East

He's trying to face both ways.

But could end up flat on his face.

Europe's been the achilles heel of the Tories for 30 years.

Strangley, if the right wing in England wants to leave the EU, their only real opportunity will be if Scotland leaves the UK.

The UK - the current member state of the EU - would split into two new states. There's no precedent for this in the EU, so it's not clear if one, both or neither would automatically retain membership.

Reply privately, Reply in forum +quote or View forums list

By *phroditeWoman over a year ago

(She/ her) in Sensualityland

Is this a political thread by any chance?

Reply privately, Reply in forum +quote or View forums list

By *ouple in LancashireCouple over a year ago

in Lancashire

Wishy,

i would agree with some of what you say but your comments about the 1st and 2nd world war is peurile imho...

to suggest that we are the rest of Europe is in debt to us is staggering..

how about us paying compensation for what the East India company did and all the other elements of colonialism during the expansion of the 'empire'?

or paying compensation to afro americans cos their relatives were shipped across the globe on british ships?

just hope Merkel dont peruse the site, she wont sleep with worrying about 'us'

Reply privately, Reply in forum +quote or View forums list

By (user no longer on site) OP over a year ago

French blockades, you talk like this is a regular occurance, it isn't. Spanish fisherman probably have to play by exactly the same rules as our fishermen.

As for the wars and debt, lets just say Surrey is spot on, if we dig up history the UK are well in debt.....the wars are not relevent.

Your right about the Eurozone, what they've done today is still not a fix, but they know they must get there. They are certainly not going to miss our help, we weren't helping them in the first place!

Reply privately, Reply in forum +quote or View forums list

By (user no longer on site) over a year ago

"French blockades, you talk like this is a regular occurance, it isn't. Spanish fisherman probably have to play by exactly the same rules as our fishermen.

As for the wars and debt, lets just say Surrey is spot on, if we dig up history the UK are well in debt.....the wars are not relevent.

Spanish fishermen may be required to play by a set of rules but time and time again they have broken them with impunity. Ask the fishermen of Devon & Cornwall how much their fleet has been decimated by EU quotas and how many thousands of tonnes or pefectly good fish have been thrown back into the sea to rot.

The point about WW1&2 was not that Europe should forever be in hock to us over it, but (and I made this point perfectly clear), Europe and the UK should have forged an unbreakable bond because of our shared history, whereas now Europe seem to think they the UK can be Europe's dumping ground for everything they don't want and ask us to pay for everything they do want.

The next time a peacekeeping force needs to be sent somewhere let the fookin French commit the lion's share of the troops, aircraft, ships and logistics, and then let them pay for it. God help the poor country that gets a German 'peacekeeping' force inside it's borders.

It was time someone from the UK stood up for Britain in Europe and this could well go down as Cameron's master stroke if it turns out to be the right move - and as he's done it for Britain I've no doubt in my mind that that's exactly what it will be - his finest hour.

Good riddance to Europe, we'll be better off without them when the dust has settled and they're still scrabbling around trying to find a solution to a currency that should never have seen the light of day.

Reply privately, Reply in forum +quote or View forums list

By (user no longer on site) over a year ago

"Has Cameron just played a 'blinder' in Europe or has he naively relegated us to a second tier player in Europe by pandering to his back benchers?

Hero or Villain?"

Its one way of looking at it but a naive one. He is making sure he doesn't sell out as I see it. We don't need pulling into the whirl pool that is the Euro thats for sure.

Reply privately, Reply in forum +quote or View forums list

By *ucky_LadsCouple (MM) over a year ago

Kidderminster+ surrounding areas.

"French blockades, you talk like this is a regular occurance, it isn't. Spanish fisherman probably have to play by exactly the same rules as our fishermen.

the spanish fisherman dont play by the same rules full stop!.

they interprete them in a totally different way to suit spain,same as the french twist rules to suit what is good for the french!,our governments implement the eu laws far too quickly without considering the effect on our industries and adhere far too strictly to the rules and tie our industries up with far too much red tape.

do you remember some years ago when the french were destroying our meat that was being exported to europe?,pity they did not have & backbone & show the same resolve when then the germans were coming over to visit in 1914-18 and on the return leg in 1939-45.

Reply privately, Reply in forum +quote or View forums list

By (user no longer on site) over a year ago

Not sure. Depends on the outcome.

Since I travel abroad for work and my company it's worldwide I can see that many eu countries are not suffering. All their shops are open, workers are retained, wages still going up, great public services. We are definitely doing something wrong.

Reply privately, Reply in forum +quote or View forums list

By *o DaddyMan over a year ago

Worcestershire

"Not sure. Depends on the outcome.

taxed too high?,succesive governments giving too much of our money away to the eu and anyone that begs perhaps?.

charity begins at home first & foremost!,the french/germans look after the interest of their own country first and that is what we should be doing.

Reply privately, Reply in forum +quote or View forums list

By (user no longer on site) over a year ago

I feel somewhat free-er this morning knowing that we won't be adopting the Euro for the foreseeable future.

Cheers Dave, and a very merry christmas to all at No.10.

Reply privately, Reply in forum +quote or View forums list

By (user no longer on site) over a year ago

No matter what he does, someone somewhere will say he is wrong.

Reply privately, Reply in forum +quote or View forums list

By (user no longer on site) over a year ago

When - not if - the Euro collapses, don't be at all surprised to swee the main Eurozone countries pinning the blame on Britain.

I can see it happening as the rest of Europe descend into chaos and civil unrest.

Reply privately, Reply in forum +quote or View forums list

By (user no longer on site) OP over a year ago

"I feel somewhat free-er this morning knowing that we won't be adopting the Euro for the foreseeable future.

Cheers Dave, and a very merry christmas to all at No.10.

Britain joining the Euro was never on anyones agenda this week! It's been made perfectly clear that this country will not be adopting the Euro for the forseeable future for the last few years now. If you think otherwise, your misinformed.

The only reason we are not already in the Euro is Gordon Brown. Fact.

Reply privately, Reply in forum +quote or View forums list

By (user no longer on site) over a year ago

About time we had a prime minister with the guts to say no to Europe

For 20 years we've had weak men in number 10, major was ineffectual whilst Blair just wanted to feather his own nest and said yes to anything as long as it let him into the inner circle

Reply privately, Reply in forum +quote or View forums list

By (user no longer on site) over a year ago

"I feel somewhat free-er this morning knowing that we won't be adopting the Euro for the foreseeable future.

Cheers Dave, and a very merry christmas to all at No.10.

The only reason we are not already in the Euro is Gordon Brown. Fact. "

The only reason we're not in the Euro is because no party would ever dare put it to a referendum. They know full well that the public would vote a resounding NO to it, and then we'd be referendumed to death until we said YES, like the Irish were.

As for being misinformed, I don't just read what's in the papers or on the news as I know full that we're only being spoon fed what the establishment want us to see. I look behind what's being put forward and see what's really there and I have no doubt in my mind that some point a UK govt is going to us ask to accept the Euro - if it survives this crisis.

Blair is a confirmed Europhile, as is/was Brown, but both of them knew they'd face murder at the ballot box if they tried to push it through. As for Major, he was so scared of getting it wrong that at a 'secret' the Maastricht summit of EU leaders in 1991 that he had one of his finest diplomats secreted underneath his table passing notes to him.

Reply privately, Reply in forum +quote or View forums list

By (user no longer on site) over a year ago

Morning papers don't seem too happy about his bargaining or lack of it. He's damned whatever he agrees to tbh.

But just because the heads of countries have agreed to a common fiscal agreement (almost) doesn't mean their paliaments won't veto it so UK may not be quite on its ownsome.

Reply privately, Reply in forum +quote or View forums list

By (user no longer on site) over a year ago

"Morning papers don't seem too happy about his bargaining or lack of it. He's damned whatever he agrees to tbh.

But just because the heads of countries have agreed to a common fiscal agreement (almost) doesn't mean their paliaments won't veto it so UK may not be quite on its ownsome."

Or that whatever the 26 of 27 agree to that they'll actually stick to it. The 27 EU countries HAD an agreement that meant that if one used it's veto no new treaty could be put forward but we now know with absolute clarity that the Maastricht Treaty isn't worth the bog roll it's written on if EU leaders can simply throw it out if it's rules are getting in the way of something they want.

Personally, I think Dave should have threatened to revoke EVERY piece of legislation pushed through under the terms of the treaty because if the underpinning treaty is now invalid so is the legislation drafted in it's name. Such a threat would have forced the 26 to look at what they wre doing a lot more closely instead of trying to railroad the UK out of an agreement many of them didn't want us in in the first place.

I'd have gone for the jugular if I was representing the UK at that meeting, and I'd have told them clearly, push us out and there will be no more British troops whenever the UN calls for it, no more propping up of the IMF with British £billions, and a border to UK territories that would be so watertight that a duck's arse would envy it.

I think Dave held back tbh, but he still did the right thing, for his party and for the UK as the very last thing we need right now is a vote of no confidence and another election.

Reply privately, Reply in forum +quote or View forums list

By (user no longer on site) over a year ago

its good that hes took a stand and said NO

now can he have more bollox and try and get this country sorted

( i wait with baited breath)

Reply privately, Reply in forum +quote or View forums list

By *uckoo clockCouple over a year ago

Merseyside

If wishy puts himself forward as a candidate at the next election he would definately get our vote.......fookin music to my ears !!

Reply privately, Reply in forum +quote or View forums list

By (user no longer on site) over a year ago

Some of the heads of countries who agreed will still have to get their parliament's agreement

Reply privately, Reply in forum +quote or View forums list

By (user no longer on site) OP over a year ago

You are wrong.

It is acknowledged even by ardent Tories that if Brown and Balls hadn't come up with their 5 point economic 'barrier' we would already be in the Euro. If you genuinely look behind things then simply look it up. The rest of Europe considered Brown to be a Eurosceptic! He stopped us joining the Euro.

Reply privately, Reply in forum +quote or View forums list

By (user no longer on site) over a year ago

The rest of Europe considered Brown to be a Eurosceptic! He stopped us joining the Euro.

Because it wasn't convenient for him at the time. That's the only reason he didn't take us in, and neither did Blair for the same reason.

As I said, read behind the facade of what they tell us and see the real truth. Blair is now earning millions in the Middle East on the back of what he didn't do in public office, Brown is yet to resurface in case an old woman from Rochdale seeks him out for some retribution (so forgive me if I guffaw at any mention of Gordy the Gaffe), but both of them would have taken us in hook line and sinker if it meant a golden place in history for them. It didn't, so they didn't.

Reply privately, Reply in forum +quote or View forums list

By (user no longer on site) over a year ago

"If wishy puts himself forward as a candidate at the next election he would definately get our vote.......fookin music to my ears !!"

Hey, I'm up for it. I'll soon tell them Merkozyististists where to fook off!

Reply privately, Reply in forum +quote or View forums list

By *atisfy janeWoman over a year ago

Torquay

"I'd have gone for the jugular if I was representing the UK at that meeting, and I'd have told them clearly, push us out and there will be no more British troops whenever the UN calls for it, no more propping up of the IMF with British £billions ."

He was negotiating with the EU....not the UN!

Nor was he negotiating with the IMF.

I think you are getting just a tad carried away Wishy, and all this talk of 'Dave'....he's not your mate from the pub, he's just the latest in a long list of political leaders you voted for....and you know 'Dave'?....he'll row you and your family right down the river the first chance he gets, your vote will mean nothing to him as he looks after his core voters....the money people, not the floating voters.

He just used your vote.

Reply privately, Reply in forum +quote or View forums list

By (user no longer on site) OP over a year ago

The rest of Europe considered Brown to be a Eurosceptic! He stopped us joining the Euro.

Because it wasn't convenient for him at the time. That's the only reason he didn't take us in, and neither did Blair for the same reason.

You constantly present your opinions as fact, they're not fact mate.

I'll give you one fact, it was the Tories that took us into the pre-runner of the Euro, The ERM. Remember Black Wednesday?

The Exchange Rate Mechanism was the Euro in all but currency, the Tories (even though Thatcher initially resisted) took us deeper into European economic integration than we've ever been before or since.

What a disaster that was.

I do agree with you on one point, Blair would have dragged us into the Euro if he could have, Brown stopped him.

Reply privately, Reply in forum +quote or View forums list

By (user no longer on site) over a year ago

[Removed by poster at 10/12/11 22:06:22]

Reply privately, Reply in forum +quote or View forums list

By (user no longer on site) over a year ago

The rest of Europe considered Brown to be a Eurosceptic! He stopped us joining the Euro.

Because it wasn't convenient for him at the time. That's the only reason he didn't take us in, and neither did Blair for the same reason.

You constantly present your opinions as fact, they're not fact mate.

I'll give you one fact, it was the Tories that took us into the pre-runner of the Euro, The ERM. Remember Black Wednesday?

What a disaster that was.

I do agree with you on one point, Blair would have dragged us into the Euro if he could have, Brown stopped him. "

It is a FACT that Blair IS earning millions in the Middle East in addition to his position as the official representative Envoy of the Quartet on the Middle East. By January 2009 he had set up Tony Blair Associates - his international consultancy - which handles multi-million-pound contracts in the Middle East and pays himself a handsome bonus. If he worked for the UK Govt, the EU, the IMF, the UN or the World Bank this would not be permitted as he would have to declare his financial interests and be absolutely transparent about his financial dealings. But no such stringent rules govern the Quartet envoy.

He could opt to abide by the rules and principles of public life as these rules were introduced by John Major and later endorsed and strengthened for all holders of public office by no other than Tony Blair himself.

pssst.. that's a FACT too.

As for Brown, he ruled out British membership of the euro in 2003 after the Treasury concluded joining was not in the UK's economic interest yet by 2006 that position had changed drastically and Brown often conferred with José Manuel Barroso, the European Commission President to discuss whether it was now viable to take Britain into the Euro.

Guess what.. that's a FACT too.

Reply privately, Reply in forum +quote or View forums list

By (user no longer on site) over a year ago

He was negotiating with the EU....not the UN!

Nor was he negotiating with the IMF.

He just used your vote."

It's not a case of 'my mate dave' - I call him that as that is the connection his style people have nurtured since he became Tory leader and I feel quite comfortable calling him 'Dave'. I feel equally comfortable calling people I don't respect - like Brown - by their surname.

As for the UN, it is the UN that asks for member states to supply troops etc but it is the EU member states who determine which troops etc are supplied from the EU. And you know full well that the Eurozone can apply for IMF funds and that the UK are committed to supplying part of those funds to the IMF without a say in to who it then further supplies those funds.

You know full well that it's all intricately linked and you're just being pedantic here.

Reply privately, Reply in forum +quote or View forums list

By *rummpsMan over a year ago

thanet

He is neither villain nor hero, he was just doing his job and putting the (this) country first.

Time will tell if he was right or wrong but all power to the guy for having the guts to stand up against the rest of Europe.

_rummps x.

Reply privately, Reply in forum +quote or View forums list

By *atisfy janeWoman over a year ago

Torquay

He was negotiating with the EU....not the UN!

Nor was he negotiating with the IMF.

He just used your vote.

You know full well that it's all intricately linked and you're just being pedantic here."

I still can't get what you are saying about the EU and troop deployments within UN operations....I am sure you are not implying that the EU determines how many troops the UK supplies to such theatres of conflict are you?....

If not what is your point?

Of course the UK adds to the IMF coffers, as does France, Germany and many other EU nations.....as well as countless other nations from around the world.

Are you suggesting that because 'Dave' has had his nose bloodied this week that the UK should sulk and not donate to the IMF safety net for the Euro?

It is in the UK's interest to do so, as even your mate 'Dave' has said many times recently...If the Euro collapsed, the UK and it's financial institutions would suffer crippling losses.

Reply privately, Reply in forum +quote or View forums list

By *hetalkingstoveMan over a year ago

London

All Cameron is doing is protecting his banker mates and he's gambling with the economy to do so. Villain many times over!

Reply privately, Reply in forum +quote or View forums list

By (user no longer on site) over a year ago

Not all business leader's think the way you are describing here. On Question Time two nights ago, Lord Wolfson, Chief Executive of Next, gave a very convincing argument that it was a matter of if, not when, the Euro collapses and that the British Govt and British businesses should start to limit their exposure to it. If it collapsed tomorrow, sure we'd be hurt, badly, but now that 'our mate Dave' has distanced the UK somewhat I think business leaders will be looking very closely at limiting their potential losses by cutting their exposure to the Euro - if they have any sense that is.

As for UN troops, I don't think for a minute that you are that naive to think that the UK govt doesn't consult with the EU govt when determining who sends what to wherever. How can the EU operate effectively if it's member states send out troops without prior consultation with fellow member states? Let's not forget that we have an Anglo-French Fighter Aircraft and soldiers bearing EU insignia. Think on that a while, and have a read of this if you can be so inclined:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Military_of_the_European_Union

Reply privately, Reply in forum +quote or View forums list

By *ixson-BallsMan over a year ago

Blackpool

The rest of Europe considered Brown to be a Eurosceptic! He stopped us joining the Euro.

Because it wasn't convenient for him at the time. That's the only reason he didn't take us in, and neither did Blair for the same reason.

You constantly present your opinions as fact, they're not fact mate.

I'll give you one fact, it was the Tories that took us into the pre-runner of the Euro, The ERM. Remember Black Wednesday?

What a disaster that was.

I do agree with you on one point, Blair would have dragged us into the Euro if he could have, Brown stopped him. "

what you forget about Black Wednesday is the hype of how much of a disaster it would be if we were no longer part of the ERM...

The treasury spent billions trying to "ride out the storm" and protect sterlings value and even raised interest rates to 15%!!!...

what happened??...

we pulled out and in doing so we were able to set our own interest rates, cut taxes and had one of the biggest booms of recent years...

so don't be too despondent about not being ruled by europe...there's plenty of business to be made elsewhere

Reply privately, Reply in forum +quote or View forums list

By (user no longer on site) OP over a year ago

what you forget about Black Wednesday is the hype of how much of a disaster it would be if we were no longer part of the ERM...

The treasury spent billions trying to "ride out the storm" and protect sterlings value and even raised interest rates to 15%!!!...

what happened??...

we pulled out and in doing so we were able to set our own interest rates, cut taxes and had one of the biggest booms of recent years...

so don't be too despondent about not being ruled by europe...there's plenty of business to be made elsewhere

I don't think anyone is advocating that we should be 'ruled' by Europe, many do however believe it would be to our detriment if we left the Single Market.

Reply privately, Reply in forum +quote or View forums list

By *leasureDomeMan over a year ago

all over the place

i thought i would sit back and look at the fallout on this one before deciding on its effect ,as to be honest there is not a prayer of several signing nations being able to get this through there respective parliaments(what do you mean we got to stick to a finance plan from brussels !!!).

Also it appears the markets are not impressed and everyone is predicting a fall tomorrow. Even the pro eurolobby working in europe are saying the euro can not survive without spain portugal and italy leaving ,the euro will crash and burn,unless it finds 1.7 trillion euros from somewhere and quickle as several french banks are on the point of collapse now .

I think Dave 1 did the right thing but for the wrong reasons ,ie he defended his position with his anti european backbenchers and the city of london .

Whether the minime clegg and the coalition will find it easy to stomach it is another story.

If you take out the rotterdam and antwerp effect to the trade figures,it is survivable,especially if we can boost our manufacturing by not being constrained by anti protectionist euro law.

Big question now for me is ,if they try to still regulate the city via the lisbon govt treaty laws do we tell em to fuck off ? in which case we need that long awaited referendum ..

if it was me ...i would be collecting all the common wealth countries together -(2/3rds of the globe) and be saying ...errr we are back guys fancy trading now we have fucked off europe-in fact fancy ripping up the rule book and all forming a protectionist trading block ?

the future is one of great change thats for sure.

Reply privately, Reply in forum +quote or View forums list

By *ushroom7Man over a year ago

Bradford

the future is one of great change thats for sure.

that said, the past was always a period of major change too

Reply privately, Reply in forum +quote or View forums list

By *atisfy janeWoman over a year ago

Torquay

"Not all business leader's think the way you are describing here. On Question Time two nights ago, Lord Wolfson, Chief Executive of Next, gave a very convincing argument that it was a matter of if, not when, the Euro collapses and that the British Govt and British businesses should start to limit their exposure to it. If it collapsed tomorrow, sure we'd be hurt, badly, but now that 'our mate Dave' has distanced the UK somewhat I think business leaders will be looking very closely at limiting their potential losses by cutting their exposure to the Euro - if they have any sense that is.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Military_of_the_European_Union"

The opearation in Afghanistan is not an EU operation, it's a NATO operation.

You can twist the argument as much as you like, the UK responded to the NATO call to send a force into Afghanistan under the ISAF umbrella, after the UN resolution that was passed in Bonn.

It was not a conference that was attended by the EU, it was attended by the NATO pact and the United Nations Security Council.

The EU doesn't control our troop deployments, nor does it have any say in how many troops we send and where.

Those are the ramblings of someone (and many EU sceptics) who clutch at straws enough to dream up things that are not even there.

If we are going to have a meaningful discussion about the EU it doesn't help to throw half truths and 'maybes' into the mix....that is simply twisting the debate.

Reply privately, Reply in forum +quote or View forums list

By (user no longer on site) over a year ago

So if what you're saying is how things are decided when it comes to the deployment of troops from EU countries then Dave appears on the steps of No.10 and announces the UK will be sending xxx amount of troops to wherever and that's the first Merkel, Sarkozy et al have heard of it, regardless of whether it's under a UN umbrella, an EU one or NATO?

Sure.

Reply privately, Reply in forum +quote or View forums list

By (user no longer on site) OP over a year ago

If we are going to have a meaningful discussion about the EU it doesn't help to throw half truths and 'maybes' into the mix....that is simply twisting the debate."

I couldn't agree more. The topic is complicated enough as it is.

Sadly some sections of the media have done a very good job on keeping certain members of the public confused and misinformed on all things Europe.

The facts don't seem to be enough for some peoples argument so they get embellished.

The debate in this country needs to be more informed, measured, honest and dare I say a little less jingoistic.

Europe is not all good, but it certainly is not all bad.

It's about time we honestly and genuinely broke down what we get from being in the EU and what we contribute. The electorate needs to know the facts so that we can make our minds up on fact not propaganda.

Reply privately, Reply in forum +quote or View forums list

By (user no longer on site) OP over a year ago

"So if what you're saying is how things are decided when it comes to the deployment of troops from EU countries then Dave appears on the steps of No.10 and announces the UK will be sending xxx amount of troops to wherever and that's the first Merkel, Sarkozy et al have heard of it, regardless of whether it's under a UN umbrella, an EU one or NATO?

Sure."

Do you remember what happened with the Iraq War? Do you remember the position of the French and Germans as opposed to the U.S and UK?

Reply privately, Reply in forum +quote or View forums list

By *ushroom7Man over a year ago

Bradford

If we are going to have a meaningful discussion about the EU it doesn't help to throw half truths and 'maybes' into the mix....that is simply twisting the debate.

I couldn't agree more. The topic is complicated enough as it is.

Sadly some sections of the media have done a very good job on keeping certain members of the public confused and misinformed on all things Europe.

The facts don't seem to be enough for some peoples argument so they get embellished.

The debate in this country needs to be more informed, measured, honest and dare I say a little less jingoistic.

Europe is not all good, but it certainly is not all bad.

re your last paragraph, are you in favour of democatic referenda for the populous, for all EU nations?

And if so, once a nation votes NO, eg Eire, France, Netherlands , should unelected EU beaureaucrats respect that?

Reply privately, Reply in forum +quote or View forums list

By *atisfy janeWoman over a year ago

Torquay

Sure."

This is your initial quote Wishy...

"I'd have gone for the jugular if I was representing the UK at that meeting, and I'd have told them clearly, push us out and there will be no more British troops whenever the UN calls for it...."

Nail on the head there Wishy....when the UN (Security Council) calls for it, you mean when they ask NATO for it, when NATO requests military intervention forces....so because we are at odds with the EU you expect the UK to say no to the UN?....to NATO?

Just how is that punishing Merkel and Sarkozy?

Reply privately, Reply in forum +quote or View forums list

By *atisfy janeWoman over a year ago

Torquay

Sure.

Do you remember what happened with the Iraq War? Do you remember the position of the French and Germans as opposed to the U.S and UK?"

It doesn't suit the jingoistic mindset to remember facts like these..

Reply privately, Reply in forum +quote or View forums list

By (user no longer on site) over a year ago

Sure.

This is your initial quote Wishy...

"I'd have gone for the jugular if I was representing the UK at that meeting, and I'd have told them clearly, push us out and there will be no more British troops whenever the UN calls for it...."

Just how is that punishing Merkel and Sarkozy?

By backing out of Europe (and leaving the EU altogether as we will inevitably have to do in the not too distant future) we can now negotiate directly with NATO/UN about what and where we send our own forces, and even say, "sorry, we're stepping out of this one completely," if we don't think it's in our interests to commit our forces.

France has more planes, troops, warships and vehicles than us anyway, so let them go on EU's behalf.

We have so many other countries we can trade with and if rid ourselves of the shackles of Brussels we can set our own agenda and trad with whoever we want at the best price that suits Britain, and Europe can go screw itself as far as I'm concerned.

Reply privately, Reply in forum +quote or View forums list

By *atisfy janeWoman over a year ago

Torquay

The UK is a permanent member of the UN Security Council and a founding member of NATO...

The EU don't negotiate on the UK's behalf with the Security Council or NATO.

You are confusing the role of the European Union Military Committee, with the UK's representation in the UN Security Council....the bottom line is the EU, and the EUMC, do not commit UK troops to any theatre of war.

The EUMC have a peacekeeping role in places like the Congo etc.

The UK rarely places personnel at the disposal of the EUMC, and when they do it is generally observers and training staff.

Reply privately, Reply in forum +quote or View forums list

By (user no longer on site) over a year ago

"Do you remember what happened with the Iraq War? Do you remember the position of the French and Germans as opposed to the U.S and UK?"

Yes I remember it, and I can't help wondering if France & Germany's position on that campaign was more to do with an anti-US/UK feeling than anything else. As it turned out, there were no WMDs in Iraq but it was still a war that needed to be fought, and would have been fought sooner or later. If the Irqai people had been as galvanised as the Libyans they would have accomplished the same as the people of Libya without a mass incursion of NATO forces, but Saddam had done such a good job of terrorising his people that they had no collective will to organise themselves. He had to go and I particularly care whether it was an 'illegal' war or not (how can any war be called legal or illegal anyway, when the people who fight them are not the people who start them)

Reply privately, Reply in forum +quote or View forums list

By (user no longer on site) over a year ago

* I don't particularly care

Reply privately, Reply in forum +quote or View forums list

By *abioMan over a year ago

Newcastle and Gateshead

Sure."

completely different arguement and what you are saying..because stuff like afghanistan and laterly Libya.. those have been auspice of the UN, and it is then it is left up to member countries to decide what they want to do...

and anyway... even though the EU has a common foreign policy, any deployments are left up to there own countries....

that is why for example you see british soldiers in cyprus...

the french and italians taking the lead in libya....

bosnia was countries from different nations....

Reply privately, Reply in forum +quote or View forums list

By (user no longer on site) over a year ago

"bosnia was countries from different nations.... "

In 2004, EU countries took over leadership of the mission in Bosnia and Herzegovina from NATO through the European Union Force (EUFOR). The mission was given the branding of an EU initiative as the EU sponsored the force to further the force's image of legitimacy. There have been other deployments such as in Gaza and the Democratic Republic of Congo. In 2007, the then European High Representative for Foreign Policy, Javier Solana indicated the EU could send troops to Georgia, perhaps alongside Russian forces.

EU Common Security and Defence Policy

----------------------------------------

The defence arrangements which have been established under the EU institutions are part of the Common Security and Defence Policy (CSDP), a branch of the Common Foreign and Security Policy (CFSP). It should be noted that Denmark has an opt-out from the CSDP.

* European Defence Agency

* European Security and Defence Identity

* European Union Institute for Security Studies

* European Union Military Staff - supervises military operations carried out by the EU; its chief is General Henri Bentegeat, a former chief of the French Defence Staff

* EU Battlegroup - a type of force of which there are 15, each one numbering 1,500 troops. Under direct control of the European Council.

* Helsinki Headline Goal (listing of rapid reaction forces composed of 60,000 troops managed by the European Union, but under control of the countries who deliver troops for it).

So nobody in the EU chats to anyone else in the EU when considering sending troops anywhere? Wake up.

Reply privately, Reply in forum +quote or View forums list

By (user no longer on site) OP over a year ago

If we are going to have a meaningful discussion about the EU it doesn't help to throw half truths and 'maybes' into the mix....that is simply twisting the debate.

I couldn't agree more. The topic is complicated enough as it is.

Sadly some sections of the media have done a very good job on keeping certain members of the public confused and misinformed on all things Europe.

The facts don't seem to be enough for some peoples argument so they get embellished.

The debate in this country needs to be more informed, measured, honest and dare I say a little less jingoistic.

Europe is not all good, but it certainly is not all bad.

re your last paragraph, are you in favour of democatic referenda for the populous, for all EU nations?

And if so, once a nation votes NO, eg Eire, France, Netherlands , should unelected EU beaureaucrats respect that?

Yes I am.

BUT the populous needs to be much better informed than it currently is. People need to understand the full ramifications of what their vote means.

Be under no illusions, I believe there are a lot of bad things about Europe, but I also know there are some good things. I would hope that any referendum gives us the opportunity to vote for the good and kick back the bad. In my book Europe has to undergo some major change.

Reply privately, Reply in forum +quote or View forums list

By (user no longer on site) OP over a year ago

"bosnia was countries from different nations....

EU Common Security and Defence Policy

----------------------------------------

* European Defence Agency

* European Security and Defence Identity

* European Union Institute for Security Studies

* European Union Military Staff - supervises military operations carried out by the EU; its chief is General Henri Bentegeat, a former chief of the French Defence Staff

* EU Battlegroup - a type of force of which there are 15, each one numbering 1,500 troops. Under direct control of the European Council.

* Helsinki Headline Goal (listing of rapid reaction forces composed of 60,000 troops managed by the European Union, but under control of the countries who deliver troops for it).

So nobody in the EU chats to anyone else in the EU when considering sending troops anywhere? Wake up.

Of course they talk Wishy, that's what Allies do, but your initial argument of '"I'd have gone for the jugular if I was representing the UK at that meeting, and I'd have told them clearly, push us out and there will be no more British troops whenever the UN calls for it...."' has been shown to not hold water. As someone said earlier you just got a bit carried away.

I actually understand some of your frustration because I believe Sarkozy actually set Cameron up. He knew Camerons move and he played for it. As I've said before I don't think Cameron had many options, but I do think I'd have played it differently.

Reply privately, Reply in forum +quote or View forums list

By *atisfy janeWoman over a year ago

Torquay

"bosnia was countries from different nations....

EU Common Security and Defence Policy

----------------------------------------

* European Defence Agency

* European Security and Defence Identity

* European Union Institute for Security Studies

* European Union Military Staff - supervises military operations carried out by the EU; its chief is General Henri Bentegeat, a former chief of the French Defence Staff

* EU Battlegroup - a type of force of which there are 15, each one numbering 1,500 troops. Under direct control of the European Council.

* Helsinki Headline Goal (listing of rapid reaction forces composed of 60,000 troops managed by the European Union, but under control of the countries who deliver troops for it).

So nobody in the EU chats to anyone else in the EU when considering sending troops anywhere? Wake up.

You just won't lie down on this one will you?

PEACEKEEPING....that's all the EU (European Union Military Committee) were involved with in Bosnia post 2004...like they were in the Congo....like they were in various other areas of conflict...and you know how many UK personnel went to the Congo?....FOUR. Four military police officers sent to train in the art of policing.

You can quote the Helsinki Headline Goal as much as you like, it's the EU rapid response force for the direct defence of Europe on it's Eastern borders basically....there is only the remit to protect the direct interests of EU nations and protect their sovereign territories.

Dress it up how much as you like Wishy with your Wikipedia quotes....the EU has no powers to send UK troops to war or areas of conflict without the wishes of the UK government or any other government of EU member states.

There is no EU army....there cannot be for the foreseeable future, all there is is an agreement to protect each other from attacks on our borders.

Reply privately, Reply in forum +quote or View forums list

By *iewMan over a year ago
Forum Mod

Angus & Findhorn

I love there is a great thread about politics going on whilst the X Factor Final is on.....

love all the contributors... I feel safer knowing you guys care x

Reply privately, Reply in forum +quote or View forums list

By *atisfy janeWoman over a year ago

Torquay

Cameron went into the discussions with his cards showing openly, without holding them close to his chest....he publically boasted of what his position was before he even set out, Sarkozy and Merkel were just waiting to ambush him, and as he had been openly placating the back benchers of the Tory party the French and Germans had all the time in the world, and the well publicised stand of the UK Prime Minister as proof, to stir all the other EU member states up....

I don't think Cameron had much choice with his stand, but he did have a choice whether or not to broadcast his stand publically for days if not weeks, instead of assembling allies from other parts of the EU which were dithering.

It only needed Two or Three other EU nations on his side to establish doubts to the Franco-German plans, but he went in with his Union Jack shorts on and his knotted hanky on his head....all it needed was 'Land of hope and glory' playing as he walked in to the conference and it would have been slightly more obvious.

He lost the fight before his plane landed....the Germans must be pissing themselves laughing.

Reply privately, Reply in forum +quote or View forums list

By (user no longer on site) over a year ago

For UN: read EU, read NATO, read Rudyard fookin Kipling, it's all the same. What I'm saying, (as clearly it has to be spelled out because some people simply cannot see beyond what's in front of them and for some inexplicable reason always resort to pedantry to try and win an argument), is that NOBODY moves ANY troops ANYWHERE without talking to EVERYBODY first.

Mr Cameron does NOT decide to send 20,000 UK personnel anywhere without first talking to his counterparts at the EU. Then he tells NATO how many, for how long, where, and when.

I'm not on the inside in Downing St but you'd have to be complete idiot to not realise how it's all put together and who has to speak to whom in order to present a co-ordinated proposal for whatever field of conflict we (the EU, for pedantry purposes) are about to get embroiled in.

We (the UK) don't just fuck off after our ten years or whatever in a particular campaign either. We (the UK) talk to the EU about a gradual withdrawal proposal, then we (the UK) tell NATO what has been agreed between all the EU member states, and adjust it accordingly if NATO has any further input.

NATO doesn't have the power to demand troops from ANY country - it puts a request in for troops. Then guess what happens?

We (the UK) go and have a conflab about it with our fellow EU members, and get back to NATO when we're ready.

Sheesh, it's like sucking eggs in here sometimes.

Reply privately, Reply in forum +quote or View forums list

By (user no longer on site) OP over a year ago

You just won't lie down on this one will you?

There is no EU army....there cannot be for the foreseeable future, all there is is an agreement to protect each other from attacks on our borders."

That should be clear enough.

Anyway, I thought Nick Cleggs _iews were very interesting. Cameron needs to be careful not to rock his coalition too much, he can't govern without it.

Reply privately, Reply in forum +quote or View forums list

By (user no longer on site) over a year ago

"Cameron went into the discussions with his cards showing openly, without holding them close to his chest....he publically boasted of what his position was before he even set out, Sarkozy and Merkel were just waiting to ambush him, and as he had been openly placating the back benchers of the Tory party the French and Germans had all the time in the world, and the well publicised stand of the UK Prime Minister as proof, to stir all the other EU member states up....

He lost the fight before his plane landed....the Germans must be pissing themselves laughing."

Unless my mate Dave's ulterior aim was to withdraw from the Eurozone completely as he knows the Euro is dead in the water, it just hasn't sunk yet, and by forewarning Merkozy what his plans were he set them up in fact, and made it look like France & Germany were fucking us over.

I'd say Dave is grinning like a cheshire cat at the moment, and I think he was spot on to do what he did.

The Euro will collapse, it cannot survive in it's present capacity and Italy, Greece, Spain, Portugal & Ireland MUST revert to their old currencies. Where does that leave the now 26 members of the EU? Well, down to 22 at the very least, and four trading partners in Europe for us to develop truly free trade alliances with without the meddling hands of Brussels demanding a slice of the action for doing fuck all.

Reply privately, Reply in forum +quote or View forums list

By *atisfy janeWoman over a year ago

Torquay

"For UN: read EU, read NATO, read Rudyard fookin Kipling, it's all the same. What I'm saying, (as clearly it has to be spelled out because some people simply cannot see beyond what's in front of them and for some inexplicable reason always resort to pedantry to try and win an argument), is that NOBODY moves ANY troops ANYWHERE without talking to EVERYBODY first.

Mr Cameron does NOT decide to send 20,000 UK personnel anywhere without first talking to his counterparts at the EU. Then he tells NATO how many, for how long, where, and when.

NATO doesn't have the power to demand troops from ANY country - it puts a request in for troops. Then guess what happens?

We (the UK) go and have a conflab about it with our fellow EU members, and get back to NATO when we're ready.

Sheesh, it's like sucking eggs in here sometimes.

Show us all the proof that the UK went to the EU to ok sending troops to Afghanistan, or more to the point, where we went to the EU to get an ok to send our troops to Iraq?....when the French in particular made such a fuss about us going there?

Your comments about sucking eggs is a bit of an insult Wishy, you are not our teacher, you are just someone with an opinion that you stick to like shit to a blanket....yet it's all only YOUR opinion....show us the proof?

Show us where it says anywhere that we have to go to the EU to discuss our troop deployments with them?

Anywhere......

Reply privately, Reply in forum +quote or View forums list

By (user no longer on site) over a year ago

You back your convictions the same as I back mine - we wouldn't be so fundamentally opposed on just about everything if we didn't.

You see everything as a chance to have a swipe at the Tories, and I respond doing likewise with Labour as I know full well you'll take the bait.

If David Cameron's tactic works out for the better for the UK (if it does, ok, I'll concede that it might not for the sake of this debate), if it does prove to be a master stroke, will you come on here and sing his praises for acting so boldly in Britain's interests when almost everyone was telling him to cave in to France & Germany and tag in behind them.

Would you do that?

I suspect you might, but many on here won't. So I'll defend my mate Dave to the hilt because I believe he's got it right in most of the decisions he's taken since taking office. He could u-turn a bit less, but at least making a u-turn is admitting he made a mistake and he's prepare to stand up and say so instead of plundering along like Brown would/did in complete denial that he screwed it up.

Reply privately, Reply in forum +quote or View forums list

By (user no longer on site) over a year ago

p.s. I'm not going to go and trawl the internet for the info you asked for and then be accused of Wiki-ing everything.

Just ask yourself this, given it's recent history, if Germany suddenly mobilised 50,000 troops without anyone knowing what they were doing, who's ringpiece would suddenly start twitching?

Just about everyone in mainland Europe for a start.

Reply privately, Reply in forum +quote or View forums list

By *atisfy janeWoman over a year ago

Torquay

I have said earlier in the thread that Cameron probably had no choice with his ultimate decision....

What I question is his insistance of being so vocal in advance in order to keep Right Wing back benchers happy...

Instead of forming alliances with fringe nations, who may well still find it all but impossible to pass this through their own parliaments incidentally, he spent that time meeting the 1922 committee and publically shouting his position from the roof of Number 10.

He fancies himself as a modern day Churchill...

Reply privately, Reply in forum +quote or View forums list

By (user no longer on site) over a year ago

...and as I said, that may well have been his position all along but he needed the UK electorate (and his own wavering backbenchers) to interpret it as France & Germany being sly and manipulative.

I think 'Merkozy' are rubbing their hands over an open fire completely unaware that there is a timebomb sitting at the bottom of this nice cozy fire that's about to blow up in their faces, and we'll be safely out of the main blast zone.

If UK businesses spend the time between now and then ridding themselves of as much of the Euro as they can it'll go a long way to limiting the fallout from the Euro's inevitable collapse.

Sarkozy Robespierre is chuckling at how he's manipulated the Cameron Pimpernel totally unaware that the elusive Englishman is already back in Blighty warming his brandy and quaffing caviar at the Dorchester.

Reply privately, Reply in forum +quote or View forums list

By (user no longer on site) over a year ago

Cameron! Total asshole...

Reply privately, Reply in forum +quote or View forums list

By *leasureDomeMan over a year ago

all over the place

"p.s. I'm not going to go and trawl the internet for the info you asked for and then be accused of Wiki-ing everything.

Just ask yourself this, given it's recent history, if Germany suddenly mobilised 50,000 troops without anyone knowing what they were doing, who's ringpiece would suddenly start twitching?

Just about everyone in mainland Europe for a start."

lmfao i dont know where your getting your info from wishy but cue the Dads Army music ...nothing could be further from the truth about Germany wishy ..in fact this year they slashed military spending .

The fact that the government has now decided to waive – and thereby in effect abolish – conscription is indicative of the state of politics today.

It is no longer about the left or the right but about money. Training conscripts takes time and manpower, and in a time of financial crisis Germany can no longer afford a luxury like expanding an army . There aim is to save about €8bn from the defence budget. The Bundeswehr is to be reduced from 240,000 soldiers to 185,000.

To even hint that Germany could secretly mobilise 50000 troups shows you know little about modern Germany ....the German people would NEVER countenance another military expansionist regime....how could they with the US and British Army still stationed over there.

Its just not viable you must realise that ??

Reply privately, Reply in forum +quote or View forums list

By *leasureDomeMan over a year ago

all over the place

"...and as I said, that may well have been his position all along but he needed the UK electorate (and his own wavering backbenchers) to interpret it as France & Germany being sly and manipulative.

If UK businesses spend the time between now and then ridding themselves of as much of the Euro as they can it'll go a long way to limiting the fallout from the Euro's inevitable collapse.

How can we stop being exposed to the Euro ,when 75% of euro transactions in business happen in the city of london. Are you saying we effectively close the city of london as a global financial centre ?

Reply privately, Reply in forum +quote or View forums list

By (user no longer on site) over a year ago

Peoples understanding of the Europe issue comes down to if they take the torygraph/daily mail as the gospel or not, pretty simple really, hope the readers/writers of said rags are happy, years of Foreign policy wasted, relationships destroyed and trade impeded so Dave can keep the square mile, political contributors, lobbyists and back benchers happy while fucking over normal people, and once again, as with many changes, people are going to buy it.

Reply privately, Reply in forum +quote or View forums list

By *ixson-BallsMan over a year ago

Blackpool

wasn't this thread started off asking whether a yeah or neigh in favour of the PM's decision??

seems to have got a bit side tracked

congratulations little mix

Reply privately, Reply in forum +quote or View forums list

By (user no longer on site) over a year ago

"Peoples understanding of the Europe issue comes down to if they take the torygraph/daily mail as the gospel or not, pretty simple really, hope the readers/writers of said rags are happy, years of Foreign policy wasted, relationships destroyed and trade impeded so Dave can keep the square mile, political contributors, lobbyists and back benchers happy while fucking over normal people, and once again, as with many changes, people are going to buy it."

I've never read the Daily Mail so that's your argument blown cleanly out of the water. As for keeping the 'square mile', this country would truly have nothing without it as 95% of our wealth comes directly from The City. The language of the markets is English and Sarkozy was rubbing his hands with glee at the prospect of bringing London under the control of the EU and taxing the crap out of it. He must feel like Fagin thwarted at the last minute in his plans to rob the UK of one of our most lucrative gems.

There is another English speaking financial centre and that's where the financial powerbase would have relocated itself if Dave had given up control of The City.

Where?

New York.

Reply privately, Reply in forum +quote or View forums list

By (user no longer on site) over a year ago

"p.s. I'm not going to go and trawl the internet for the info you asked for and then be accused of Wiki-ing everything.

Just ask yourself this, given it's recent history, if Germany suddenly mobilised 50,000 troops without anyone knowing what they were doing, who's ringpiece would suddenly start twitching?

Just about everyone in mainland Europe for a start.

The fact that the government has now decided to waive – and thereby in effect abolish – conscription is indicative of the state of politics today.

Its just not viable you must realise that ??

Do you not know the difference between an analogy and fact?

I was not stating that Germany had expansionist aims. I was giving a scenario as to why EU countries inform each other of what each other are doing. There's these little things floating around up in the sky called satellites that allow everyone to have a look at who's doing what and if one country started moving troops around - maybe as part of a NATO build up - but hadn't informed it's neighbours, those neighbours would start asking questions.

Can none of you see that no EU country can move troops about without speaking to their counterparts within the EU.

The truth is France's military capabilities are far greater than ours, they have more tanks, more aircraft, more frigates and more vehicles than the UK. The only thing we have more than them is subs and our Carrier Fleet is no more than floating tin tubs now they've been stripped of aircraft. A bad move by the govt I agree, but it will be interesting to see if the plans for new aircraft planned for 2020 for our carriers will be brought forward.

Reply privately, Reply in forum +quote or View forums list

By (user no longer on site) over a year ago

"...and as I said, that may well have been his position all along but he needed the UK electorate (and his own wavering backbenchers) to interpret it as France & Germany being sly and manipulative.

If UK businesses spend the time between now and then ridding themselves of as much of the Euro as they can it'll go a long way to limiting the fallout from the Euro's inevitable collapse.

Are you only reading the bits of my posts you wish to diagree with?

WHEN the Euro fails, London already has in place the facility to start trading in Drachma, Punt, Peseta, Lira, Deutchmark and Escudo et al, as those systems were never decommissioned when the Euro was introduced. The money men in The City wouldn't see any difference in trading any of the former EU currencies and trading the Euro, it's just numbers to them and so long as they make money they will trade in pig shit if there was a buck in it.

Anyway, how can 75% of Euro transactions happen in London for a currency that won't be around for too much longer?

Reply privately, Reply in forum +quote or View forums list

By (user no longer on site) over a year ago

As ex Conservative party members and someone who studied politics at Uni, especially the European Union, this has been a long time coming. Well done to the PM.

Labours stance, we should have done exactly the same thing but had friends! (What). Also any economic lecture from Ed Balls just amuses the hell out of us.

The Liberals approach....erm a joke.

Europe has been going blindly down this road ever since the treaties of Rome. Unfortunately the flawed experiment could take others down with it.

Thank god we weren't in the Euro as Blair wanted. Left behind and isolated, yes please, just look how that poor country Switzerland has struggled not being in Euro.

Reply privately, Reply in forum +quote or View forums list

By *atisfy janeWoman over a year ago

Torquay

"As ex Conservative party members and someone who studied politics at Uni, especially the European Union, this has been a long time coming. Well done to the PM.

Labours stance, we should have done exactly the same thing but had friends! (What). Also any economic lecture from Ed Balls just amuses the hell out of us.

The Liberals approach....erm a joke.

Europe has been going blindly down this road ever since the treaties of Rome. Unfortunately the flawed experiment could take others down with it.

Thank god we weren't in the Euro as Blair wanted. Left behind and isolated, yes please, just look how that poor country Switzerland has struggled not being in Euro."

For someone who studied politics at Uni, and has a supposed understanding of the European Union.....you seem to have forgotten that the reason Switzerland isn't in the Euro....is probably because they aren't in the European Union in the first place!

Reply privately, Reply in forum +quote or View forums list

By (user no longer on site) OP over a year ago

Lets look at this slightly differently, the _iew of some is to get out of the EU and dump all things Europe including many of the laws and regulations, but what are the alternatives?

Euro sceptics and some on these forums keep saying that there is a big world out there to go trade with instead of Europe.

If the alternative is so easy and we are competitive enough then why aren't we already trading more with the rest of the world now?

The biggest business issue that never seems to get any 'airplay' for me is the major international investment dilemma. Investment is the 'lifeblood' of business and therefore the economy. Large international companies invest in the UK mainly because of our membership of the Single Market.

It is their way into Europe. A good example is the Nissan factory in Sunderland, the biggest car plant in the UK and the most productive in Europe. It directly employs thousands on top of all the small businesses that exist only to supply it. Bottom line is it's only here because of our EU membership.

There are lots of companies like Nissan.

Wishy, have you really thought it through based on the facts when you call for us to dump Europe?

Reply privately, Reply in forum +quote or View forums list

By (user no longer on site) over a year ago

Is it too early in the morning for you as that's exactly what was mean't.

Just because it hasn't been spelt out in Janet and John style.

Reply privately, Reply in forum +quote or View forums list

By *atisfy janeWoman over a year ago

Torquay

Can none of you see that no EU country can move troops about without speaking to their counterparts within the EU?.

Wishy, Wishy, Wishy.....you keep banging on about this but you can't back this up can you?

Show us where, anywhere, where this is stated as a fact....

You are mixing up the EU Eurocorps force with the UK's independent military capability.

Britain never signed up to Eurocorps as regards soldiers on the ground, we only signed up under John Major to supply technical, intelligence and training aspects of the force.

I am tiring of this as you just refuse to accept you are wrong on this one, so I'll make this the last time I will say this...

The UK is part of the NATO agreement, the UK works under the umbrella of NATO, together with our European allies....but to suggest we can't move troops without clearing it with the EU is a nonsense.

We have ALWAYS, whoever the leader of the UK government is, maintained our independent military capability.

Reply privately, Reply in forum +quote or View forums list

By *ouple in LancashireCouple over a year ago

in Lancashire

"Is it too early in the morning for you as that's exactly what was mean't.

Just because it hasn't been spelt out in Janet and John style."

thats a mature response to a valid point...

Reply privately, Reply in forum +quote or View forums list

By *atisfy janeWoman over a year ago

Torquay

"Is it too early in the morning for you as that's exactly what was mean't.

Just because it hasn't been spelt out in Janet and John style."

Let me quote you then..

"Thank god we weren't in the Euro as Blair wanted. Left behind and isolated, yes please, just look how that poor country Switzerland has struggled not being in Euro"......

Switzerland isn't in the EURO because Switzerland isn't in the EU....

Janet, John, or Harry....that's what you said.

Reply privately, Reply in forum +quote or View forums list

By (user no longer on site) over a year ago

Some good points Blackspice but lets not forget the amount of trade that goes on with the commonwealth and the north atlantic trading area too.

Take your point on the Nissan factory but not sure it is or was vital to our membership or for deeper intergration within Europe. Before the factory was built there was a lot of spin both ways.

Also check out countries such as Mexico (Bizarre I know) and there relationship and trading rights within Europe.

What markets/companies desire is decision making, with 27 states and 17 in the Euro having to agree expect long delays over the smallest of decisions. The deeper and wider it gets the worse it will be.

Reply privately, Reply in forum +quote or View forums list

By (user no longer on site) over a year ago

exactly, in Euro (shortened for Europe) not "the Euro" as in those shiny pennies.

Reply privately, Reply in forum +quote or View forums list

By *atisfy janeWoman over a year ago

Torquay

Switzerland applied to become a member of the European Union in 1992, they have since withdrawn their notification of interest.

Incidentally, most common Swiss law has been brought into line with the EU, just about all their civil laws mirror EU regulations, with just a handful of exceptions.

The Swiss have also signed a great deal of bilateral agreements with the EU.

The Swiss are also part of the Schengen agreement having signed the Schengen treaty....which incidentally the UK has not signed up to....under any Prime Minister, regardless of party politics.

And the fundamental reason for Swiss national wealth?.....could be argued to be Nazi plunder from the second world war, and/or their lax taxation which sees many EU businesses, including British companies and individuals, pay Swiss tax instead of tax in their home nations.

Reply privately, Reply in forum +quote or View forums list

By (user no longer on site) OP over a year ago

"Some good points Blackspice but lets not forget the amount of trade that goes on with the commonwealth and the north atlantic trading area too.

Take your point on the Nissan factory but not sure it is or was vital to our membership or for deeper intergration within Europe. Before the factory was built there was a lot of spin both ways.

Also check out countries such as Mexico (Bizarre I know) and there relationship and trading rights within Europe.

I'm not sure what your point is with regard the commonwealth and north atlantic trading area, that is trade we already have, please elaborate.

Nissan would not have chosen the UK if we weren't in the Single Market. As I've said there are those who want us to withdraw from the EU and my Nissan example was directed at them, are you supporting leaving the EU?

As for Mexico, are you suggesting we would proactively try to import more goods from there if we leave the EU?

Reply privately, Reply in forum +quote or View forums list

By (user no longer on site) over a year ago

That's a great "google" response and also very accurate. Swiss banking is the power behind the country.

You have to ask yourself this, why would the EU allow such agreements.

However, the Swiss aren't stupid when it comes to an economic trading area as diverse as the EU and Euro zone in particular.

German economy is under inflated and is propping up countires such as Greece which is vastly over inflated. This will always be the case

Also you have the French, the puppeteers of Germany. Ask the French to relinquish CAP for the sake of us all, a policy to prop up the French.

Reply privately, Reply in forum +quote or View forums list

By (user no longer on site) over a year ago

from a simple point of _iew,, he is a hero.. i dont want to pay for the euro bail out, why would i want to bail out a collective that says that we cant have the Hitachi wand!?!? :P

Reply privately, Reply in forum +quote or View forums list

By *irlnextdoorWoman over a year ago

brighton

Remember this one?

Sir Humphrey: Minister, Britain has had the same foreign policy objective for at least the last five hundred years: to create a disunited Europe. In that cause we have fought with the Dutch against the Spanish, with the Germans against the French, with the French and Italians against the Germans, and with the French against the Germans and Italians. Divide and rule, you see. Why should we change now, when it's worked so well?

Hacker: That's all ancient history, surely?

Sir Humphrey: Yes, and current policy. We had to break the whole thing [the EEC] up, so we had to get inside. We tried to break it up from the outside, but that wouldn't work. Now that we're inside we can make a complete pig's breakfast of the whole thing: set the Germans against the French, the French against the Italians, the Italians against the Dutch. The Foreign Office is terribly pleased; it's just like old times.

Hacker: But surely we're all committed to the European ideal?

Sir Humphrey: [chuckles] Really, Minister.

Hacker: If not, why are we pushing for an increase in the membership?

Sir Humphrey: Well, for the same reason. It's just like the United Nations, in fact; the more members it has, the more arguments it can stir up, the more futile and impotent it becomes.

Hacker: What appalling cynicism.

Sir Humphrey: Yes... We call it diplomacy, Minister.

Reply privately, Reply in forum +quote or View forums list

By (user no longer on site) over a year ago

"Some good points Blackspice but lets not forget the amount of trade that goes on with the commonwealth and the north atlantic trading area too.

Take your point on the Nissan factory but not sure it is or was vital to our membership or for deeper intergration within Europe. Before the factory was built there was a lot of spin both ways.

Also check out countries such as Mexico (Bizarre I know) and there relationship and trading rights within Europe.

I'm not sure what your point is with regard the commonwealth and north atlantic trading area, that is trade we already have, please elaborate.

As for Mexico, are you suggesting we would proactively try to import more goods from there if we leave the EU? "

Sorry Blackspice but perhaps I was trying to be too concise with the response to your post.

Wasn't actually stating you were wrong or right as regards to Nissan, just a badly put point on my behalf as to where the world is heading as it seems more and more dependant upon trading blocks like the Asia Tiger etc.

Wasn't also stating our increased trade with Mexico but again I should have been clearer, a response to the trade agreement with the EU and countries such as Mexico, ie, having most of the benefits without the crap that goes with it too.

Also would anyone believe that trade between the EU and the UK would stop just like that. At the time of our accession our trade with the then EEC was just 20%. Also would the EU risk losing our budget contribution, especially after Blair snatched defeat from the jaws of victory and successfully managed to cock up the British rebate.

Reply privately, Reply in forum +quote or View forums list

By (user no longer on site) over a year ago

"Has Cameron just played a 'blinder' in Europe or has he naively relegated us to a second tier player in Europe by pandering to his back benchers?

Hero or Villain?"

Neither. He's just a bad statesman (how long was he in power before he offended the Indians?) A clever British statesman would have got what he wanted from the EU without losing anything.

Reply privately, Reply in forum +quote or View forums list

By (user no longer on site) OP over a year ago

"Some good points Blackspice but lets not forget the amount of trade that goes on with the commonwealth and the north atlantic trading area too.

Take your point on the Nissan factory but not sure it is or was vital to our membership or for deeper intergration within Europe. Before the factory was built there was a lot of spin both ways.

Also check out countries such as Mexico (Bizarre I know) and there relationship and trading rights within Europe.

I'm not sure what your point is with regard the commonwealth and north atlantic trading area, that is trade we already have, please elaborate.

As for Mexico, are you suggesting we would proactively try to import more goods from there if we leave the EU?

Sorry Blackspice but perhaps I was trying to be too concise with the response to your post.

I agree with your point about the world heading down the road of trading blocks.

Reply privately, Reply in forum +quote or View forums list

By (user no longer on site) over a year ago

"Switzerland applied to become a member of the European Union in 1992, they have since withdrawn their notification of interest.

Incidentally, most common Swiss law has been brought into line with the EU, just about all their civil laws mirror EU regulations, with just a handful of exceptions.

The Swiss have also signed a great deal of bilateral agreements with the EU.

The Swiss are also part of the Schengen agreement having signed the Schengen treaty....which incidentally the UK has not signed up to....under any Prime Minister, regardless of party politics.

I thought any mention of WW2 invoked an automatic response of Little Englandism? Was I wrong?

Reply privately, Reply in forum +quote or View forums list

By (user no longer on site) over a year ago

We have ALWAYS, whoever the leader of the UK government is, maintained our independent military capability.

{giggles} you gotta be kidding me with this one.

We scrapped our carrier fleet by making sure it has no aircraft to launch from them), yet you maintain we have an independent military capability?...

Sure we do....Only if the Americans let us.

...But then Sarkozy wanted an unified Europe where everything was run from Brussels, which, had Dave signed up to it, would have allowed Sarkozy to start issuing demands from the US. He can't do that now, and I think we'll see our new carriers arrive much sooner than 2020.

Reply privately, Reply in forum +quote or View forums list

By (user no longer on site) over a year ago

"Has Cameron just played a 'blinder' in Europe or has he naively relegated us to a second tier player in Europe by pandering to his back benchers?

Hero or Villain?

Neither. He's just a bad statesman (how long was he in power before he offended the Indians?) A clever British statesman would have got what he wanted from the EU without losing anything."

Be fair he is suffering from oxygen starvation to his brain after all that belt hung on the back of the door, orange in mouth wanking them Tory boys do. Leaves them all a bit brain dead to go along with loose backsides after all that public school buggering they get.

Reply privately, Reply in forum +quote or View forums list

By (user no longer on site) over a year ago

Ed the Red accuses Dave of putting party politics first. Nick the Dick backs Dave on Friday, stabs him in the back on Monday. Party politicking too?

Ed refuses to say what Labour would have agreed, or not, at the summit, and Nick is silent.. conspicuously.

The only person who has stood up for Britain this past week or so is David Cameron, knowing full well he faced a backlash at home, and Ed & Nick have done nothing to get behind our leader and support Britain, focusing entirely on having a fest of a day in promoting their own parties.

Says it all really.

Reply privately, Reply in forum +quote or View forums list

By (user no longer on site) over a year ago

just got back to the forum, well said wishy.

Reply privately, Reply in forum +quote or View forums list

By *ax the gentle GiantMan over a year ago

birmingham

"Has Cameron just played a 'blinder' in Europe or has he naively relegated us to a second tier player in Europe by pandering to his back benchers?

Hero or Villain?"

He is a hero but in the words of Lord Denning when asked on the influence of EUrope he likened it to " an incoming tide never to be turned back" whilst he made a brave bold move the unfortunate position that we have is that if we dont intergrate we lose out to infulencing the main trading block that is europe and its markets and unfortunatley the way econoics has evolved we can no longer go it alone. Fiar play to Cameron but his justification of apeasing the city of London was typical tory policy of looking out for big business

Reply privately, Reply in forum +quote or View forums list

By *atisfy janeWoman over a year ago

Torquay

"Ed the Red accuses Dave of putting party politics first. Nick the Dick backs Dave on Friday, stabs him in the back on Monday. Party politicking too?

Ed refuses to say what Labour would have agreed, or not, at the summit, and Nick is silent.. conspicuously.

Says it all really."

The only bright note to come from all of this is the obvious breakdown of the relationship in the cozy marriage of Cameron and Clegg, and the best bit is the way that they were so hasty to bring in the Five year fixed term of Parliament for this rickity coalition.

It can can only go downhill from now on with this bodged up alliance, bit by bit we will see Bills being beaten down in Parliament and that will make very interesting watching.....Three and a half years of increasingly public bickering between the Brokeback Two.....Pure manna from heaven.

Reply privately, Reply in forum +quote or View forums list

By (user no longer on site) over a year ago

do him and his missis swing!!!!!!!!!!!!xx

Reply privately, Reply in forum +quote or View forums list

By *ouple in LancashireCouple over a year ago

in Lancashire

" The only bright note to come from all of this is the obvious breakdown of the relationship in the cozy marriage of Cameron and Clegg, and the best bit is the way that they were so hasty to bring in the Five year fixed term of Parliament for this rickity coalition.

Yep.

How cosy it all looked 18 month ago, yes they (the Lib dooms)knew there were going to be 'difficult decisions' for them as a party but now they were being taken seriously like 'real politicians' that was ok...

Now they are stuck for 5 years, being the Tories foil, losing their core vote which if Labour get their act together they may profit from..

Lib dooms will be as popular as sprout soup by 2015, their only hope of survival is to try and fight from within..

How long before the 1st 'Liberal', looking to the next election and their joining the great unwashed decides to cross the floor..

Interesting times..

Reply privately, Reply in forum +quote or View forums list

By (user no longer on site) OP over a year ago

Cameron said "membership of the EU is VITAL to Britains interests". I don't think he could have made it any clearer.

I think his actions last week are going to backfire on him domestically because he's given his Eurosceptic backbenchers their wind. He doesn't want to leave the Euro, but some of them do.

The splits in the coalition are obvious but the lib dems are toothless. The bigger danger for Cameron may be the splits within his own party.

Lets not kid ourselves, he will be back at a Euro summit at some point and if he is seen to concede ground to Europe in any way or backtrack, there are those in his party who will want his head.

I still believe he had little choice in the final outcome but he should have handled it much better.

Reply privately, Reply in forum +quote or View forums list

By *onnoisseur100Man over a year ago

Woking-ish

"Just looked through what happened, hero or villain? neither he went to the meeting with the intention of blackmailing them to provide some extra privileges for the stock market traders in London.

They wouldn’t be blackmailed so kicked him out…

Now he is saying he did it intentionally! Cameron LOST, Sarkozy said weeks ago that UK should be excluded from the Euro decisions, and now has what he wanted.

Of course the UK will still pay money into the EEC if the Euro crashes then we will pay a lot more in real terms. How can that be claimed as anything but LOST. "

If you mean by kicked out; kicked out of the Titanic, just before it sailed, then I agree!

Reply privately, Reply in forum +quote or View forums list

By (user no longer on site) over a year ago

Vote was 26 - 1 how could the UK be the only one objecting? its either we in or out and either one we are screwed. Seems UK isn't happy they not running the EU as Germany/France are and there's really nothing they can do about it since they have not one single ally in the EU.

Cameron can have his one day of glory as next week there will be another issue he be fighting again.

Reply privately, Reply in forum +quote or View forums list

By (user no longer on site) over a year ago

neither simply a dim wanker

Reply privately, Reply in forum +quote or View forums list

» Add a new message to this topic