FabSwingers.com > Forums > The Lounge > Is it time for vigilantes?
Is it time for vigilantes?
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"The police don't have the resources to fight all the crime. There's been a few stories lately of the General Public disarming people with knives, knocking thieves off their scooters etc. Should we ditch Neighbourhood Watch and turn vigilante? Take back our towns and cities. " My heart says yes, my head says no. I'm voting stick with what we have rather than have mob justice, often inflamed and informed by ignorance. A few years back a chap was hounded out of his house, which was pretty much wrecked by a vigilante mob. His "crime"? Being a paedophile. Except that he wasn't, he was a very well respected paediatrician. Some people are too dumb to wield a stick..... | |||
"No - the worst possible thing that could happen - people taking the law into their own hands will result in countless innocent people being conside_ed guilty until proven innocent and probably placed in serious danger as a result, which is far worse than the current situation, which I agree is far from ideal. The answer is proper funding and backing for our police forces plain and simple." Thread solved  | |||
"The police don't have the resources to fight all the crime. There's been a few stories lately of the General Public disarming people with knives, knocking thieves off their scooters etc. Should we ditch Neighbourhood Watch and turn vigilante? Take back our towns and cities. " It's not just a resources issue. The police have long been deluded that CCTV was an equal substitute for manpower and now the results of that policy speak for themselves. I don't really want mobs patrolling the street, but i own a gun -put it that way. | |||
" The answer is proper funding and backing for our police forces plain and simple." Pouring water into a bucket with a gaping hole, won't fill it. | |||
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"No - the worst possible thing that could happen - people taking the law into their own hands will result in countless innocent people being conside_ed guilty until proven innocent and probably placed in serious danger as a result, which is far worse than the current situation, which I agree is far from ideal. The answer is proper funding and backing for our police forces plain and simple." | |||
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" The answer is proper funding and backing for our police forces plain and simple. Pouring water into a bucket with a gaping hole, won't fill it. " No it won't but if we're talking analogies, then properly repairing that bucket *would* enable it to be filled! | |||
"How bout we just fund the police so that they can do the job properly?" Where will the money come from? NHS needs money too. | |||
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" The answer is proper funding and backing for our police forces plain and simple. Pouring water into a bucket with a gaping hole, won't fill it. " With proper funding and backing you get to buy a new bucket - you will never completely stop the rot (crime has happened since the start of time) but you can turn back the tide and significantly _educe it. Either way vigilantism is NOT the answer for all the reasons stated. | |||
"Bring back the days of roaming the streets with pitch forks & kicking doors down & while we’re at it paint a big _ed X on doors "  | |||
"How bout we just fund the police so that they can do the job properly? Where will the money come from? NHS needs money too." Yes it does and where that funding comes from IS a big question but without wishing to go into political ideals there are plenty of areas where funding could be found | |||
" The answer is proper funding and backing for our police forces plain and simple. Pouring water into a bucket with a gaping hole, won't fill it. No it won't but if we're talking analogies, then properly repairing that bucket *would* enable it to be filled!" Ok but pretending the repair would only need cash is intellectually dishonest. If the police are tasked to enforce stupid laws that favour perpetrators of crime over victims, if they have a stratgey to sit indoors all day watched CCTV and if prisons do nothing to rehabilitate people, then throwing more resources at it won't repair the bucket. | |||
" The answer is proper funding and backing for our police forces plain and simple. Pouring water into a bucket with a gaping hole, won't fill it. With proper funding and backing you get to buy a new bucket - you will never completely stop the rot (crime has happened since the start of time) but you can turn back the tide and significantly _educe it. Either way vigilantism is NOT the answer for all the reasons stated." Funding is 25% of the problem in my estimation. | |||
" The answer is proper funding and backing for our police forces plain and simple. Pouring water into a bucket with a gaping hole, won't fill it. With proper funding and backing you get to buy a new bucket - you will never completely stop the rot (crime has happened since the start of time) but you can turn back the tide and significantly _educe it. Either way vigilantism is NOT the answer for all the reasons stated. Funding is 25% of the problem in my estimation. " I think the root cause is the growing gap between rich and poor. It’s a recipe for a very unhealthy and unhappy society. | |||
" The answer is proper funding and backing for our police forces plain and simple. Pouring water into a bucket with a gaping hole, won't fill it. No it won't but if we're talking analogies, then properly repairing that bucket *would* enable it to be filled! Ok but pretending the repair would only need cash is intellectually dishonest. If the police are tasked to enforce stupid laws that favour perpetrators of crime over victims, if they have a stratgey to sit indoors all day watched CCTV and if prisons do nothing to rehabilitate people, then throwing more resources at it won't repair the bucket. " very true. Funding, number of officers and resources are only part of the problem. The laws, and criminal system often lets the police and community down. Where I live repeat offenders are given slapped hands and released to continue the crime 
Moral boundaries have shifted the wrong way too! | |||
" The answer is proper funding and backing for our police forces plain and simple. Pouring water into a bucket with a gaping hole, won't fill it. With proper funding and backing you get to buy a new bucket - you will never completely stop the rot (crime has happened since the start of time) but you can turn back the tide and significantly _educe it. Either way vigilantism is NOT the answer for all the reasons stated. Funding is 25% of the problem in my estimation. I think the root cause is the growing gap between rich and poor. It’s a recipe for a very unhealthy and unhappy society. " Think it’s more of a gap between being brought up and dragged up  | |||
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" The answer is proper funding and backing for our police forces plain and simple. Pouring water into a bucket with a gaping hole, won't fill it. With proper funding and backing you get to buy a new bucket - you will never completely stop the rot (crime has happened since the start of time) but you can turn back the tide and significantly _educe it. Either way vigilantism is NOT the answer for all the reasons stated. Funding is 25% of the problem in my estimation. I think the root cause is the growing gap between rich and poor. It’s a recipe for a very unhealthy and unhappy society. " It's undeniably a significant part of the problem. It's also linked to a state that is too sca_ed to challenge people on their shitty life decisions and in some circumstances will fund it. | |||
"The police don't have the resources to fight all the crime. There's been a few stories lately of the General Public disarming people with knives, knocking thieves off their scooters etc. Should we ditch Neighbourhood Watch and turn vigilante? Take back our towns and cities. " Oh yes. I am Batman. | |||
"How bout we just fund the police so that they can do the job properly? Where will the money come from? NHS needs money too." Well the tories could stop giving tax breaks to the richest and cracked down on tax avoidence/evasion. | |||
" Should we ditch Neighbourhood Watch and turn vigilante? Take back our towns and cities. " No. You vote into office a party that promises to increase police resources, rather than _educe them. | |||
it would lead to more crime and lots of innocent people suffering I think. It’s not a solution. | |||
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"Arm the police. Curbside justice! "would be good! But the police would be too sca_ed of pulling a gun out for fear of offending someone! Haha! | |||
"How bout we just fund the police so that they can do the job properly? Where will the money come from? NHS needs money too. Well the tories could stop giving tax breaks to the richest and cracked down on tax avoidence/evasion. " Exactly this! It doesn’t help they’re cutting funding for the NHS, police etc and I’m sorry but vigilante groups isn’t the answer | |||
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"How bout we just fund the police so that they can do the job properly? Where will the money come from? NHS needs money too. Well the tories could stop giving tax breaks to the richest and cracked down on tax avoidence/evasion. Exactly this! It doesn’t help they’re cutting funding for the NHS, police etc and I’m sorry but vigilante groups isn’t the answer " It's populist nonsense in afriad. A clever sounding version of "the money tree". The tax gap, adjusted for inflation, is essentially the same as it was in 1997 when the Labour manifesto promised to close it. Spolier alert, they failed. If you were a higher rate tax payer then you'd know that taxes have gone up. The Tories are smart enough not to change the % but they lowe_ed the band's at which you pay the higher rate and didn't adjust them for inflation. | |||
" Yes it does and where that funding comes from IS a big question but without wishing to go into political ideals there are plenty of areas where funding could be found " Where does any government get money from? By taxation and borrowing. I read yesterday the UK has spent £2.7 billion trying to create a mini-state in Syria. It gave money to people it called "rebels" to run a government. People who are using bombs and bullets to bring about political change. That is pretty much the definition of terrorism. Hence why Russia and Syria accuse the UK and NATO of funding terrorists. £2.7bn here might have helped our police forces. | |||
"How bout we just fund the police so that they can do the job properly? Where will the money come from? NHS needs money too. Well the tories could stop giving tax breaks to the richest and cracked down on tax avoidence/evasion. Exactly this! It doesn’t help they’re cutting funding for the NHS, police etc and I’m sorry but vigilante groups isn’t the answer It's populist nonsense in afriad. A clever sounding version of "the money tree". The tax gap, adjusted for inflation, is essentially the same as it was in 1997 when the Labour manifesto promised to close it. Spolier alert, they failed. If you were a higher rate tax payer then you'd know that taxes have gone up. The Tories are smart enough not to change the % but they lowe_ed the band's at which you pay the higher rate and didn't adjust them for inflation. " And yet the wealth gap between the richest and poorest continues to grow exponentially. | |||
"How bout we just fund the police so that they can do the job properly? Where will the money come from? NHS needs money too. Well the tories could stop giving tax breaks to the richest and cracked down on tax avoidence/evasion. Exactly this! It doesn’t help they’re cutting funding for the NHS, police etc and I’m sorry but vigilante groups isn’t the answer It's populist nonsense in afriad. A clever sounding version of "the money tree". The tax gap, adjusted for inflation, is essentially the same as it was in 1997 when the Labour manifesto promised to close it. Spolier alert, they failed. If you were a higher rate tax payer then you'd know that taxes have gone up. The Tories are smart enough not to change the % but they lowe_ed the band's at which you pay the higher rate and didn't adjust them for inflation. And yet the wealth gap between the richest and poorest continues to grow exponentially. " Yes and that's a problem. The most obvious reason for that is the fucking bank bail out that never should have happened. But people who live in a country with free education, healthcare and housing, but can't help themselves are also part of the problem. | |||
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"No - the worst possible thing that could happen - people taking the law into their own hands will result in countless innocent people being conside_ed guilty until proven innocent and probably placed in serious danger as a result, which is far worse than the current situation, which I agree is far from ideal. The answer is proper funding and backing for our police forces plain and simple."
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"There is an unwritten agreement in society, the Government are given a monopoly on using force so long as they maintain order. This is to stop honor justice where you attack or even kill someone in retribution to something they did. The government does this on your behalf through the legal system. If the government cannot maintain order, through incompentence or misguided idiology, the agreement is broken and you'll have vilgilante and mob justice. This is not condoning it, just stating situation. Compare us to the US where civilians have access to weapons and despite the tools readily available, they don't do mob justice since the police maintain order." Hence why I (legally) own a gun. If the government can't do their fucking job and protect my family then i will. | |||
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"There is an unwritten agreement in society, the Government are given a monopoly on using force so long as they maintain order. This is to stop honor justice where you attack or even kill someone in retribution to something they did. The government does this on your behalf through the legal system. If the government cannot maintain order, through incompentence or misguided idiology, the agreement is broken and you'll have vilgilante and mob justice. This is not condoning it, just stating situation. Compare us to the US where civilians have access to weapons and despite the tools readily available, they don't do mob justice since the police maintain order. Hence why I (legally) own a gun. If the government can't do their fucking job and protect my family then i will. " This is why opinion on the America's second amemdmant has changed through the years, it's the ultimate check. If can't maintain order, the armed civilians will form groups to protect themselves. I'm beginining to think that us not having this kind of check is to our detriment with the amount of killings, attacks and the way the government brushes it off like it doesn't matter. | |||
"There is an unwritten agreement in society, the Government are given a monopoly on using force so long as they maintain order. This is to stop honor justice where you attack or even kill someone in retribution to something they did. The government does this on your behalf through the legal system. If the government cannot maintain order, through incompentence or misguided idiology, the agreement is broken and you'll have vilgilante and mob justice. This is not condoning it, just stating situation. Compare us to the US where civilians have access to weapons and despite the tools readily available, they don't do mob justice since the police maintain order. Hence why I (legally) own a gun. If the government can't do their fucking job and protect my family then i will. This is why opinion on the America's second amemdmant has changed through the years, it's the ultimate check. If can't maintain order, the armed civilians will form groups to protect themselves. I'm beginining to think that us not having this kind of check is to our detriment with the amount of killings, attacks and the way the government brushes it off like it doesn't matter." Because it doesn't happen to them. They don't have to live in shit hole communities blighted by bad lifestyle choices, drugs and anti-social wankers who won't be awake at 7:30am for work. The fact that pepper spray is illegal to carry shows how many fucks they give about the safety of common people. | |||
"How bout we just fund the police so that they can do the job properly? Where will the money come from? NHS needs money too. Well the tories could stop giving tax breaks to the richest and cracked down on tax avoidence/evasion. Exactly this! It doesn’t help they’re cutting funding for the NHS, police etc and I’m sorry but vigilante groups isn’t the answer It's populist nonsense in afriad. A clever sounding version of "the money tree". The tax gap, adjusted for inflation, is essentially the same as it was in 1997 when the Labour manifesto promised to close it. Spolier alert, they failed. If you were a higher rate tax payer then you'd know that taxes have gone up. The Tories are smart enough not to change the % but they lowe_ed the band's at which you pay the higher rate and didn't adjust them for inflation. And yet the wealth gap between the richest and poorest continues to grow exponentially. Yes and that's a problem. The most obvious reason for that is the fucking bank bail out that never should have happened. But people who live in a country with free education, healthcare and housing, but can't help themselves are also part of the problem. " Quick question. How do you propose people become better at 'helping themselves'? The idea of a left or right libertarian state sounds nice but it really only seems to work in small countries with small, stable populations in which the demand for labour remains moderately high. Most people notice that these states quickly descend into nationalist socialism or hard right ideology the moment an uncontrollable problem causes disruption. | |||
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"How bout we just fund the police so that they can do the job properly? Where will the money come from? NHS needs money too. Well the tories could stop giving tax breaks to the richest and cracked down on tax avoidence/evasion. Exactly this! It doesn’t help they’re cutting funding for the NHS, police etc and I’m sorry but vigilante groups isn’t the answer It's populist nonsense in afriad. A clever sounding version of "the money tree". The tax gap, adjusted for inflation, is essentially the same as it was in 1997 when the Labour manifesto promised to close it. Spolier alert, they failed. If you were a higher rate tax payer then you'd know that taxes have gone up. The Tories are smart enough not to change the % but they lowe_ed the band's at which you pay the higher rate and didn't adjust them for inflation. And yet the wealth gap between the richest and poorest continues to grow exponentially. Yes and that's a problem. The most obvious reason for that is the fucking bank bail out that never should have happened. But people who live in a country with free education, healthcare and housing, but can't help themselves are also part of the problem. Quick question. How do you propose people become better at 'helping themselves'? The idea of a left or right libertarian state sounds nice but it really only seems to work in small countries with small, stable populations in which the demand for labour remains moderately high. Most people notice that these states quickly descend into nationalist socialism or hard right ideology the moment an uncontrollable problem causes disruption." So point 1, we have to acknowledge that it's boys and young men committing the majority of these crimes, anyone trigge_ed by that can go do some research. Point 2, there are p_edictable paths that feed boys into these criminal lifestyles. And therefore, they could help themselves somewhat by recognising the path they are on and reaching out to another. Most of them lack decent male role models and use immature friends as a substitute for belonging. There are decent male role models out there, in sports clubs, youth organisations, arts / drama. But sometimes people need to go find them rather than sit on the sofa smoking and wait for the government to try and impose a hobby on you. | |||
"There is an unwritten agreement in society, the Government are given a monopoly on using force so long as they maintain order. This is to stop honor justice where you attack or even kill someone in retribution to something they did. The government does this on your behalf through the legal system. If the government cannot maintain order, through incompentence or misguided idiology, the agreement is broken and you'll have vilgilante and mob justice. This is not condoning it, just stating situation. Compare us to the US where civilians have access to weapons and despite the tools readily available, they don't do mob justice since the police maintain order. Hence why I (legally) own a gun. If the government can't do their fucking job and protect my family then i will. This is why opinion on the America's second amemdmant has changed through the years, it's the ultimate check. If can't maintain order, the armed civilians will form groups to protect themselves. I'm beginining to think that us not having this kind of check is to our detriment with the amount of killings, attacks and the way the government brushes it off like it doesn't matter. Because it doesn't happen to them. They don't have to live in shit hole communities blighted by bad lifestyle choices, drugs and anti-social wankers who won't be awake at 7:30am for work. The fact that pepper spray is illegal to carry shows how many fucks they give about the safety of common people. " Very true, there's also a massive difference in self-defence laws between us and other countries. Here an old man held in his own home with a screwdiver managed to fight him off but killed the burgler, gets arrested by police (released later but hardly the point) Other countries, the second you threaten someones life or loved ones and invade their home or business, your fault if they kill you in self defence. That kind of deterrant tends to scare of the more opertunistic criminals. | |||
" The answer is proper funding and backing for our police forces plain and simple. Pouring water into a bucket with a gaping hole, won't fill it. With proper funding and backing you get to buy a new bucket - you will never completely stop the rot (crime has happened since the start of time) but you can turn back the tide and significantly _educe it. Either way vigilantism is NOT the answer for all the reasons stated. Funding is 25% of the problem in my estimation. " Which is why I said funding AND backing - still, regardless of its accuracy, 25% is a fairly hefty part of the problem solved if it's made available. Add to that that proper funding then leads to some of the other problems being solved too (e.g. police forces are properly resourced leading to more feet on the street and less reliance on CCTV). Either way it's getting away from the original question which is whether it's time for vigilante actions and the answer to THAT is still no. | |||
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" The answer is proper funding and backing for our police forces plain and simple. Pouring water into a bucket with a gaping hole, won't fill it. With proper funding and backing you get to buy a new bucket - you will never completely stop the rot (crime has happened since the start of time) but you can turn back the tide and significantly _educe it. Either way vigilantism is NOT the answer for all the reasons stated. Funding is 25% of the problem in my estimation. Which is why I said funding AND backing - still, regardless of its accuracy, 25% is a fairly hefty part of the problem solved if it's made available. Add to that that proper funding then leads to some of the other problems being solved too (e.g. police forces are properly resourced leading to more feet on the street and less reliance on CCTV). Either way it's getting away from the original question which is whether it's time for vigilante actions and the answer to THAT is still no." Agree, most of us don't want to subcontract our safety to Tony Soprano, but i interpreted the question more as "is it time for a change" and my answer to that is "yes". | |||
"Other countries, the second you threaten someones life or loved ones and invade their home or business, your fault if they kill you in self defence. That kind of deterrant tends to scare of the more opertunistic criminals." Are you suggesting that self defencer laws in America deter crime? Next you'll be saying that their draconian attitude to prison also scares people off. | |||
"The police don't have the resources to fight all the crime. There's been a few stories lately of the General Public disarming people with knives, knocking thieves off their scooters etc. Should we ditch Neighbourhood Watch and turn vigilante? Take back our towns and cities. My heart says yes, my head says no. I'm voting stick with what we have rather than have mob justice, often inflamed and informed by ignorance. A few years back a chap was hounded out of his house, which was pretty much wrecked by a vigilante mob. His "crime"? Being a paedophile. Except that he wasn't, he was a very well respected paediatrician. Some people are too dumb to wield a stick..... " . That's fake news I'm afraid, it's been proven fake for years but still used by the so called educated elites as a battering ram against reform | |||
"The police don't have the resources to fight all the crime. There's been a few stories lately of the General Public disarming people with knives, knocking thieves off their scooters etc. Should we ditch Neighbourhood Watch and turn vigilante? Take back our towns and cities. My heart says yes, my head says no. I'm voting stick with what we have rather than have mob justice, often inflamed and informed by ignorance. A few years back a chap was hounded out of his house, which was pretty much wrecked by a vigilante mob. His "crime"? Being a paedophile. Except that he wasn't, he was a very well respected paediatrician. Some people are too dumb to wield a stick..... . That's fake news I'm afraid, it's been proven fake for years but still used by the so called educated elites as a battering ram against reform" It's a truth rapped in a lie. Someone spray painted the word "paedo" onto Yvette Cloetes house. That's then turned into a lynch mob of concerned parents burnt down her house. | |||
"Other countries, the second you threaten someones life or loved ones and invade their home or business, your fault if they kill you in self defence. That kind of deterrant tends to scare of the more opertunistic criminals. Are you suggesting that self defencer laws in America deter crime? Next you'll be saying that their draconian attitude to prison also scares people off." It may not deter crime but the self defence laws are more orientated to the victim and their rights in the US. | |||
"The police don't have the resources to fight all the crime. There's been a few stories lately of the General Public disarming people with knives, knocking thieves off their scooters etc. Should we ditch Neighbourhood Watch and turn vigilante? Take back our towns and cities. My heart says yes, my head says no. I'm voting stick with what we have rather than have mob justice, often inflamed and informed by ignorance. A few years back a chap was hounded out of his house, which was pretty much wrecked by a vigilante mob. His "crime"? Being a paedophile. Except that he wasn't, he was a very well respected paediatrician. Some people are too dumb to wield a stick..... . That's fake news I'm afraid, it's been proven fake for years but still used by the so called educated elites as a battering ram against reform It's a truth rapped in a lie. Someone spray painted the word "paedo" onto Yvette Cloetes house. That's then turned into a lynch mob of concerned parents burnt down her house. " . That was the sign writer, he'd run out of paint and just nipped off to get some more | |||
"Other countries, the second you threaten someones life or loved ones and invade their home or business, your fault if they kill you in self defence. That kind of deterrant tends to scare of the more opertunistic criminals. Are you suggesting that self defencer laws in America deter crime? Next you'll be saying that their draconian attitude to prison also scares people off." If you know the full consequenses for your actions, that you'll be hunted by a competent, relentless group using force (police) but know even before that the person you going to commit the crime to is prepa_ed to kill you to defend themselves and be defended by that group for doing so, would you still do it? | |||
"The police don't have the resources to fight all the crime. There's been a few stories lately of the General Public disarming people with knives, knocking thieves off their scooters etc. Should we ditch Neighbourhood Watch and turn vigilante? Take back our towns and cities. My heart says yes, my head says no. I'm voting stick with what we have rather than have mob justice, often inflamed and informed by ignorance. A few years back a chap was hounded out of his house, which was pretty much wrecked by a vigilante mob. His "crime"? Being a paedophile. Except that he wasn't, he was a very well respected paediatrician. Some people are too dumb to wield a stick..... . That's fake news I'm afraid, it's been proven fake for years but still used by the so called educated elites as a battering ram against reform It's a truth rapped in a lie. Someone spray painted the word "paedo" onto Yvette Cloetes house. That's then turned into a lynch mob of concerned parents burnt down her house. . That was the sign writer, he'd run out of paint and just nipped off to get some more "When he came back the house was burnt to the ground. | |||
"The police don't have the resources to fight all the crime. There's been a few stories lately of the General Public disarming people with knives, knocking thieves off their scooters etc. Should we ditch Neighbourhood Watch and turn vigilante? Take back our towns and cities. My heart says yes, my head says no. I'm voting stick with what we have rather than have mob justice, often inflamed and informed by ignorance. A few years back a chap was hounded out of his house, which was pretty much wrecked by a vigilante mob. His "crime"? Being a paedophile. Except that he wasn't, he was a very well respected paediatrician. Some people are too dumb to wield a stick..... . That's fake news I'm afraid, it's been proven fake for years but still used by the so called educated elites as a battering ram against reform It's a truth rapped in a lie. Someone spray painted the word "paedo" onto Yvette Cloetes house. That's then turned into a lynch mob of concerned parents burnt down her house. . That was the sign writer, he'd run out of paint and just nipped off to get some more "Mob mentality is real and a terrifying thing. A small runour suddenly becomes solid fact and they are certain a certain individual did the crime, and instead of waiting for police to work out who really did it, they ruin an innocent person's life. It happens alot in my area. One person says "ooo that sounds like so and so" then all of a sudden it is so and so, but it isnt. Police follow a process and make sure of someone's guilt/innocence before hand | |||
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"the nhs is skint there isnt enough schools ,prisons huge housing shortage lack of police and funding and many many more things .. who got the country in this state. government and politicians right , there in charge of running the country and are on huge wages and expenses bills they claim for.. people entering the country from what i hear dont beat the system , they work the system, everythings handed on a plate to them . if it wasnt maybe things would be different. it works in other countries" | |||
"The police don't have the resources to fight all the crime. There's been a few stories lately of the General Public disarming people with knives, knocking thieves off their scooters etc. Should we ditch Neighbourhood Watch and turn vigilante? Take back our towns and cities. My heart says yes, my head says no. I'm voting stick with what we have rather than have mob justice, often inflamed and informed by ignorance. A few years back a chap was hounded out of his house, which was pretty much wrecked by a vigilante mob. His "crime"? Being a paedophile. Except that he wasn't, he was a very well respected paediatrician. Some people are too dumb to wield a stick..... . That's fake news I'm afraid, it's been proven fake for years but still used by the so called educated elites as a battering ram against reform It's a truth rapped in a lie. Someone spray painted the word "paedo" onto Yvette Cloetes house. That's then turned into a lynch mob of concerned parents burnt down her house. . That was the sign writer, he'd run out of paint and just nipped off to get some more
Mob mentality is real and a terrifying thing. A small runour suddenly becomes solid fact and they are certain a certain individual did the crime, and instead of waiting for police to work out who really did it, they ruin an innocent person's life. It happens alot in my area. One person says "ooo that sounds like so and so" then all of a sudden it is so and so, but it isnt. Police follow a process and make sure of someone's guilt/innocence before hand"But when 5% of burglaries are solved, do you see the problem with that process? | |||
"The police don't have the resources to fight all the crime. There's been a few stories lately of the General Public disarming people with knives, knocking thieves off their scooters etc. Should we ditch Neighbourhood Watch and turn vigilante? Take back our towns and cities. My heart says yes, my head says no. I'm voting stick with what we have rather than have mob justice, often inflamed and informed by ignorance. A few years back a chap was hounded out of his house, which was pretty much wrecked by a vigilante mob. His "crime"? Being a paedophile. Except that he wasn't, he was a very well respected paediatrician. Some people are too dumb to wield a stick..... . That's fake news I'm afraid, it's been proven fake for years but still used by the so called educated elites as a battering ram against reform It's a truth rapped in a lie. Someone spray painted the word "paedo" onto Yvette Cloetes house. That's then turned into a lynch mob of concerned parents burnt down her house. . That was the sign writer, he'd run out of paint and just nipped off to get some more
Mob mentality is real and a terrifying thing. A small runour suddenly becomes solid fact and they are certain a certain individual did the crime, and instead of waiting for police to work out who really did it, they ruin an innocent person's life. It happens alot in my area. One person says "ooo that sounds like so and so" then all of a sudden it is so and so, but it isnt. Police follow a process and make sure of someone's guilt/innocence before hand
But when 5% of burglaries are solved, do you see the problem with that process? "Every system has it's flaws. I was simply pointing out the flaws with mob mentality vigilantism. People latch onto something and refuse to believe otherwise | |||
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"The police don't have the resources to fight all the crime. There's been a few stories lately of the General Public disarming people with knives, knocking thieves off their scooters etc. Should we ditch Neighbourhood Watch and turn vigilante? Take back our towns and cities. My heart says yes, my head says no. I'm voting stick with what we have rather than have mob justice, often inflamed and informed by ignorance. A few years back a chap was hounded out of his house, which was pretty much wrecked by a vigilante mob. His "crime"? Being a paedophile. Except that he wasn't, he was a very well respected paediatrician. Some people are too dumb to wield a stick..... . That's fake news I'm afraid, it's been proven fake for years but still used by the so called educated elites as a battering ram against reform It's a truth rapped in a lie. Someone spray painted the word "paedo" onto Yvette Cloetes house. That's then turned into a lynch mob of concerned parents burnt down her house. . That was the sign writer, he'd run out of paint and just nipped off to get some more
Mob mentality is real and a terrifying thing. A small runour suddenly becomes solid fact and they are certain a certain individual did the crime, and instead of waiting for police to work out who really did it, they ruin an innocent person's life. It happens alot in my area. One person says "ooo that sounds like so and so" then all of a sudden it is so and so, but it isnt. Police follow a process and make sure of someone's guilt/innocence before hand
But when 5% of burglaries are solved, do you see the problem with that process?
Every system has it's flaws. I was simply pointing out the flaws with mob mentality vigilantism. People latch onto something and refuse to believe otherwise"Nobody is really saying they want armed mobs doing the polices job. At most, some of us are saying we take extra measures to protect ourselves. This thread is mainly fully of frustration at the current system, not a deluded utopia of a new one. | |||
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"I think there is a community somewhere in London where residents have clubbed together to hire a private security force to patrol the streets. They have no more powers than you or I when it comes to law enforcement, but I guess it enables a prompt call-out to the police when confronted by criminality. I'm guessing it must be a wealthy neighbourhood." That's basically the norm in parts of South Africa. Not really where we want to end up, but it's the path we're on. | |||
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"I think there is a community somewhere in London where residents have clubbed together to hire a private security force to patrol the streets. They have no more powers than you or I when it comes to law enforcement, but I guess it enables a prompt call-out to the police when confronted by criminality. I'm guessing it must be a wealthy neighbourhood." Jewish neighbourhoods have the Shomrim which is a marvellous idea which shows what volunteers can do if properly regulated. | |||
"Bring back the days of roaming the streets with pitch forks & kicking doors down & while we’re at it paint a big _ed X on doors "That was just in Norfolk I think?  | |||
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"This isn't a UK problem, it's western one, it's replicated all over. Paris is an absolute shit hole now in places that used to be quite nice, people are fleeing in droves. That liberal former republican bastion of California is being deserted faster than a sinking ship, there heading to Texas, where taxes are low and crime is low " Then they'll infect texas with their stupid hippy shit and bring that down. Then everyone from taxes will move to Tokyo like a domino | |||
"There is an unwritten agreement in society, the Government are given a monopoly on using force so long as they maintain order. This is to stop honor justice where you attack or even kill someone in retribution to something they did. The government does this on your behalf through the legal system. If the government cannot maintain order, through incompentence or misguided idiology, the agreement is broken and you'll have vilgilante and mob justice. This is not condoning it, just stating situation. Compare us to the US where civilians have access to weapons and despite the tools readily available, they don't do mob justice since the police maintain order. Hence why I (legally) own a gun. If the government can't do their fucking job and protect my family then i will. " Keep that off your FAC renewal mate! lol | |||
"This isn't a UK problem, it's western one, it's replicated all over. Paris is an absolute shit hole now in places that used to be quite nice, people are fleeing in droves. That liberal former republican bastion of California is being deserted faster than a sinking ship, there heading to Texas, where taxes are low and crime is low Then they'll infect texas with their stupid hippy shit and bring that down. Then everyone from taxes will move to Tokyo like a domino" . Similar weather, similar housing, nice beaches but unlike San Francisco no human shit and needles all over the pavements, anybody that really cares about this need look no further than San Francisco as to what's coming down the line | |||
"There is an unwritten agreement in society, the Government are given a monopoly on using force so long as they maintain order. This is to stop honor justice where you attack or even kill someone in retribution to something they did. The government does this on your behalf through the legal system. If the government cannot maintain order, through incompentence or misguided idiology, the agreement is broken and you'll have vilgilante and mob justice. This is not condoning it, just stating situation. Compare us to the US where civilians have access to weapons and despite the tools readily available, they don't do mob justice since the police maintain order. Hence why I (legally) own a gun. If the government can't do their fucking job and protect my family then i will. Keep that off your FAC renewal mate! lol" It's for clay pigeon and rabbit shooting only. If someone startles me in the night whilst holding a clay pigeon... | |||
"This isn't a UK problem, it's western one, it's replicated all over. Paris is an absolute shit hole now in places that used to be quite nice, people are fleeing in droves. That liberal former republican bastion of California is being deserted faster than a sinking ship, there heading to Texas, where taxes are low and crime is low Then they'll infect texas with their stupid hippy shit and bring that down. Then everyone from taxes will move to Tokyo like a domino. Similar weather, similar housing, nice beaches but unlike San Francisco no human shit and needles all over the pavements, anybody that really cares about this need look no further than San Francisco as to what's coming down the line" I was always an east coast fan, representing | |||
"The police don't have the resources to fight all the crime. There's been a few stories lately of the General Public disarming people with knives, knocking thieves off their scooters etc. Should we ditch Neighbourhood Watch and turn vigilante? Take back our towns and cities. It's not just a resources issue. The police have long been deluded that CCTV was an equal substitute for manpower and now the results of that policy speak for themselves. I don't really want mobs patrolling the street, but i own a gun -put it that way. " Not for long if you make that public.. | |||
"This isn't a UK problem, it's western one, it's replicated all over. Paris is an absolute shit hole now in places that used to be quite nice, people are fleeing in droves. That liberal former republican bastion of California is being deserted faster than a sinking ship, there heading to Texas, where taxes are low and crime is low " Like to make a correction, wouldn't say Western, I would say ideological one, look at why people are fleeing California for Texas, or why there are no issues in Poland compa_ed to Sweden | |||
"This isn't a UK problem, it's western one, it's replicated all over. Paris is an absolute shit hole now in places that used to be quite nice, people are fleeing in droves. That liberal former republican bastion of California is being deserted faster than a sinking ship, there heading to Texas, where taxes are low and crime is low Then they'll infect texas with their stupid hippy shit and bring that down. Then everyone from taxes will move to Tokyo like a domino. Similar weather, similar housing, nice beaches but unlike San Francisco no human shit and needles all over the pavements, anybody that really cares about this need look no further than San Francisco as to what's coming down the line I was always an east coast fan, representing " . You know what gets me is liberals who utterly denounce mob mentally but then back it as soon as some minorities kick off about some load of fake news crap, like most of the so called "innocent" black guys in America shot by the racist fascist cops. Nearly everyone of those cases turned out to be fake news propergated by the main stream news and social justice wankers and nothing is said about it. | |||
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" The answer is proper funding and backing for our police forces plain and simple. Pouring water into a bucket with a gaping hole, won't fill it. With proper funding and backing you get to buy a new bucket - you will never completely stop the rot (crime has happened since the start of time) but you can turn back the tide and significantly _educe it. Either way vigilantism is NOT the answer for all the reasons stated. Funding is 25% of the problem in my estimation. Which is why I said funding AND backing - still, regardless of its accuracy, 25% is a fairly hefty part of the problem solved if it's made available. Add to that that proper funding then leads to some of the other problems being solved too (e.g. police forces are properly resourced leading to more feet on the street and less reliance on CCTV). Either way it's getting away from the original question which is whether it's time for vigilante actions and the answer to THAT is still no. Agree, most of us don't want to subcontract our safety to Tony Soprano, but i interpreted the question more as "is it time for a change" and my answer to that is "yes". " Of course there need to be changes that much is indisputable - what is without question though is that that change needs to be the RIGHT change and NOT mob mentality and vigilantism. And those right changes start with better funding and backing for our police forces, tackling crime head on, support for those in need, and a whole raft of other social schemes that steer people away from crime. You will never stop crime completely but a lot can be done to _educe it with the proper funding and backing in place | |||
"There is an unwritten agreement in society, the Government are given a monopoly on using force so long as they maintain order. This is to stop honor justice where you attack or even kill someone in retribution to something they did. The government does this on your behalf through the legal system. If the government cannot maintain order, through incompentence or misguided idiology, the agreement is broken and you'll have vilgilante and mob justice. This is not condoning it, just stating situation. Compare us to the US where civilians have access to weapons and despite the tools readily available, they don't do mob justice since the police maintain order. Hence why I (legally) own a gun. If the government can't do their fucking job and protect my family then i will. Keep that off your FAC renewal mate! lol It's for clay pigeon and rabbit shooting only. If someone startles me in the night whilst holding a clay pigeon... " Yeah, those muscle motor skills. Couldnt be helped  | |||
" The answer is proper funding and backing for our police forces plain and simple. Pouring water into a bucket with a gaping hole, won't fill it. With proper funding and backing you get to buy a new bucket - you will never completely stop the rot (crime has happened since the start of time) but you can turn back the tide and significantly _educe it. Either way vigilantism is NOT the answer for all the reasons stated. Funding is 25% of the problem in my estimation. Which is why I said funding AND backing - still, regardless of its accuracy, 25% is a fairly hefty part of the problem solved if it's made available. Add to that that proper funding then leads to some of the other problems being solved too (e.g. police forces are properly resourced leading to more feet on the street and less reliance on CCTV). Either way it's getting away from the original question which is whether it's time for vigilante actions and the answer to THAT is still no. Agree, most of us don't want to subcontract our safety to Tony Soprano, but i interpreted the question more as "is it time for a change" and my answer to that is "yes". Of course there need to be changes that much is indisputable - what is without question though is that that change needs to be the RIGHT change and NOT mob mentality and vigilantism. And those right changes start with better funding and backing for our police forces, tackling crime head on, support for those in need, and a whole raft of other social schemes that steer people away from crime. You will never stop crime completely but a lot can be done to _educe it with the proper funding and backing in place "I think it starts with consensus around what police priorities are. I believe the police prioritise easy to convict crimes to boost their figures, so politicians can stand up and say "problem, what problem?" | |||
"The police don't have the resources to fight all the crime. There's been a few stories lately of the General Public disarming people with knives, knocking thieves off their scooters etc. Should we ditch Neighbourhood Watch and turn vigilante? Take back our towns and cities. " "Who watches The Watchmen" | |||
"How bout we just fund the police so that they can do the job properly? Where will the money come from? NHS needs money too. Well the tories could stop giving tax breaks to the richest and cracked down on tax avoidence/evasion. Exactly this! It doesn’t help they’re cutting funding for the NHS, police etc and I’m sorry but vigilante groups isn’t the answer It's populist nonsense in afriad. A clever sounding version of "the money tree". The tax gap, adjusted for inflation, is essentially the same as it was in 1997 when the Labour manifesto promised to close it. Spolier alert, they failed. If you were a higher rate tax payer then you'd know that taxes have gone up. The Tories are smart enough not to change the % but they lowe_ed the band's at which you pay the higher rate and didn't adjust them for inflation. And yet the wealth gap between the richest and poorest continues to grow exponentially. Yes and that's a problem. The most obvious reason for that is the fucking bank bail out that never should have happened. But people who live in a country with free education, healthcare and housing, but can't help themselves are also part of the problem. Quick question. How do you propose people become better at 'helping themselves'? The idea of a left or right libertarian state sounds nice but it really only seems to work in small countries with small, stable populations in which the demand for labour remains moderately high. Most people notice that these states quickly descend into nationalist socialism or hard right ideology the moment an uncontrollable problem causes disruption. So point 1, we have to acknowledge that it's boys and young men committing the majority of these crimes, anyone trigge_ed by that can go do some research. Point 2, there are p_edictable paths that feed boys into these criminal lifestyles. And therefore, they could help themselves somewhat by recognising the path they are on and reaching out to another. Most of them lack decent male role models and use immature friends as a substitute for belonging. There are decent male role models out there, in sports clubs, youth organisations, arts / drama. But sometimes people need to go find them rather than sit on the sofa smoking and wait for the government to try and impose a hobby on you. " I get that, but surely it's more 50/50? Yes, most of the crime is done by young men, of working class background. I'm not a Conservative minded person, but yes, strong family role models and a stable family upbringing seem to be proven as necessary for both young men and women to develop and grow up well. The complexities between whether it's better for children to grow up with one hard working parent, over a chaotic family where partners argue and either do not work together, or one has, for example, substance use issues, is still out there I guess. This all being said people slip through the net, either due to family dynamics, or not the best start in their formative years. The chances are a young man will not distance himself from friends whom to hang around, is counter intuitive to your well being and personal development - unless someone in that group is innocent in the face of the rest of the group getting in serious trouble. I guess this is where community and local governement come in - it's in their interest to catch young men before they fall, and try to reform those who already have. Sometimes this might mean something as simple as supporting a local boxing club to get young men inside and doing something community based and interacting with better people, rather than 'hanging out on the streets', interacting with the same circles. | |||
"Arm the police. Curbside justice! "We have armed police here. It changes nothing. | |||
"No - the worst possible thing that could happen - people taking the law into their own hands will result in countless innocent people being conside_ed guilty until proven innocent and probably placed in serious danger as a result, which is far worse than the current situation, which I agree is far from ideal. The answer is proper funding and backing for our police forces plain and simple. Thread solved "Alternatively, a change in people’s attitude so that they just don’t accept terrible behaviour as the norm. Surely a society that makes education compulsory (and actually does it), gives opportunities and provides role models, and as a last result punishments that are truly a deterrent is the way forward. | |||
" So point 1, we have to acknowledge that it's boys and young men committing the majority of these crimes, anyone trigge_ed by that can go do some research. Point 2, there are p_edictable paths that feed boys into these criminal lifestyles. And therefore, they could help themselves somewhat by recognising the path they are on and reaching out to another. Most of them lack decent male role models and use immature friends as a substitute for belonging. There are decent male role models out there, in sports clubs, youth organisations, arts / drama. But sometimes people need to go find them rather than sit on the sofa smoking and wait for the government to try and impose a hobby on you. I get that, but surely it's more 50/50? Yes, most of the crime is done by young men, of working class background. I'm not a Conservative minded person, but yes, strong family role models and a stable family upbringing seem to be proven as necessary for both young men and women to develop and grow up well. The complexities between whether it's better for children to grow up with one hard working parent, over a chaotic family where partners argue and either do not work together, or one has, for example, substance use issues, is still out there I guess. This all being said people slip through the net, either due to family dynamics, or not the best start in their formative years. The chances are a young man will not distance himself from friends whom to hang around, is counter intuitive to your well being and personal development - unless someone in that group is innocent in the face of the rest of the group getting in serious trouble. I guess this is where community and local governement come in - it's in their interest to catch young men before they fall, and try to reform those who already have. Sometimes this might mean something as simple as supporting a local boxing club to get young men inside and doing something community based and interacting with better people, rather than 'hanging out on the streets', interacting with the same circles. " So I think we agree of pretty much all that. What were you referring to when you said "It's more 50/50"? | |||
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" So point 1, we have to acknowledge that it's boys and young men committing the majority of these crimes, anyone trigge_ed by that can go do some research. Point 2, there are p_edictable paths that feed boys into these criminal lifestyles. And therefore, they could help themselves somewhat by recognising the path they are on and reaching out to another. Most of them lack decent male role models and use immature friends as a substitute for belonging. There are decent male role models out there, in sports clubs, youth organisations, arts / drama. But sometimes people need to go find them rather than sit on the sofa smoking and wait for the government to try and impose a hobby on you. I get that, but surely it's more 50/50? Yes, most of the crime is done by young men, of working class background. I'm not a Conservative minded person, but yes, strong family role models and a stable family upbringing seem to be proven as necessary for both young men and women to develop and grow up well. The complexities between whether it's better for children to grow up with one hard working parent, over a chaotic family where partners argue and either do not work together, or one has, for example, substance use issues, is still out there I guess. This all being said people slip through the net, either due to family dynamics, or not the best start in their formative years. The chances are a young man will not distance himself from friends whom to hang around, is counter intuitive to your well being and personal development - unless someone in that group is innocent in the face of the rest of the group getting in serious trouble. I guess this is where community and local governement come in - it's in their interest to catch young men before they fall, and try to reform those who already have. Sometimes this might mean something as simple as supporting a local boxing club to get young men inside and doing something community based and interacting with better people, rather than 'hanging out on the streets', interacting with the same circles. So I think we agree of pretty much all that. What were you referring to when you said "It's more 50/50"? " As in the government needs to provide local support services and wider national opportunity, but also have the will to strong arm people into using the schemes and services who are on the edge descending into disruptive groups and behaviours, or those who have engaged already but in the realm of minor offences. The other 50% is the individual taking initiative, or giving the opportunity granted as much effort as possie. It's also about individuals working things out between themselves. Parents actually telling their 12 year old kkids, "no, you can go swimming with your friends but you are not going to the park after 7pm". You know, keep one another on the straight and narrow so life remains tolerable. | |||
"The police don't have the resources to fight all the crime. There's been a few stories lately of the General Public disarming people with knives, knocking thieves off their scooters etc. Should we ditch Neighbourhood Watch and turn vigilante? Take back our towns and cities. My heart says yes, my head says no. I'm voting stick with what we have rather than have mob justice, often inflamed and informed by ignorance. A few years back a chap was hounded out of his house, which was pretty much wrecked by a vigilante mob. His "crime"? Being a paedophile. Except that he wasn't, he was a very well respected paediatrician. Some people are too dumb to wield a stick..... " I agree with this. | |||
" So point 1, we have to acknowledge that it's boys and young men committing the majority of these crimes, anyone trigge_ed by that can go do some research. Point 2, there are p_edictable paths that feed boys into these criminal lifestyles. And therefore, they could help themselves somewhat by recognising the path they are on and reaching out to another. Most of them lack decent male role models and use immature friends as a substitute for belonging. There are decent male role models out there, in sports clubs, youth organisations, arts / drama. But sometimes people need to go find them rather than sit on the sofa smoking and wait for the government to try and impose a hobby on you. I get that, but surely it's more 50/50? Yes, most of the crime is done by young men, of working class background. I'm not a Conservative minded person, but yes, strong family role models and a stable family upbringing seem to be proven as necessary for both young men and women to develop and grow up well. The complexities between whether it's better for children to grow up with one hard working parent, over a chaotic family where partners argue and either do not work together, or one has, for example, substance use issues, is still out there I guess. This all being said people slip through the net, either due to family dynamics, or not the best start in their formative years. The chances are a young man will not distance himself from friends whom to hang around, is counter intuitive to your well being and personal development - unless someone in that group is innocent in the face of the rest of the group getting in serious trouble. I guess this is where community and local governement come in - it's in their interest to catch young men before they fall, and try to reform those who already have. Sometimes this might mean something as simple as supporting a local boxing club to get young men inside and doing something community based and interacting with better people, rather than 'hanging out on the streets', interacting with the same circles. So I think we agree of pretty much all that. What were you referring to when you said "It's more 50/50"? As in the government needs to provide local support services and wider national opportunity, but also have the will to strong arm people into using the schemes and services who are on the edge descending into disruptive groups and behaviours, or those who have engaged already but in the realm of minor offences. The other 50% is the individual taking initiative, or giving the opportunity granted as much effort as possie. It's also about individuals working things out between themselves. Parents actually telling their 12 year old kkids, "no, you can go swimming with your friends but you are not going to the park after 7pm". You know, keep one another on the straight and narrow so life remains tolerable." Yeah I'd agree with that, but in the last ~20 years we've seen the exact opposite of government supporting this kind of thing. In the sense that well meaning legislation has meant that most sane adult males don't want to go within a 50 meter radius of children in order to avoid being presumed as a sex offender. I'm not saying that children don't need protecting or that there weren't some serious problems before, but the pendulum has gone the other way and an accusation alone does the damage. | |||
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"No - the worst possible thing that could happen - people taking the law into their own hands will result in countless innocent people being conside_ed guilty until proven innocent and probably placed in serious danger as a result, which is far worse than the current situation, which I agree is far from ideal. The answer is proper funding and backing for our police forces plain and simple. Thread solved
Alternatively, a change in people’s attitude so that they just don’t accept terrible behaviour as the norm.
Surely a society that makes education compulsory (and actually does it), gives opportunities and provides role models, and as a last result punishments that are truly a deterrent is the way forward.
"I can't see things changing for the better any time soon.  | |||
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"I think you'd find a lot of people in the real world take a dim view on swingers and their lifestyle. Those vigilantes might well be coming for you when they decide to "wipe Swinging scum" off the streets .... Be careful what you wish for." I'm not a Swinger so I'm ok. | |||
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"The police don't have the resources to fight all the crime. There's been a few stories lately of the General Public disarming people with knives, knocking thieves off their scooters etc. Should we ditch Neighbourhood Watch and turn vigilante? Take back our towns and cities. " No. | |||
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"Depends on the definition of vigilante, if you mean should we give a good kicking and citizens arrest anyone we see committing an actual crime. Yes we should. And the Police should turn a blind eye to the guilty party bruises and complaints. If you mean going around giving punishment beatings to those suspected of crime, no. Has to be heat of the moment and actually involved in crime at the time. "This worries me! | |||
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"There's a saying here it's... We know where you live. But when the vigilantes come and ask the question sitting or standing....It's about where you would like them to shoot you. It's ok though... When they get it wrong, as they often do, they send someone round to apologise for their mistakes... " | |||
"Depends on the definition of vigilante, if you mean should we give a good kicking and citizens arrest anyone we see committing an actual crime. Yes we should. And the Police should turn a blind eye to the guilty party bruises and complaints. If you mean going around giving punishment beatings to those suspected of crime, no. Has to be heat of the moment and actually involved in crime at the time.
This worries me!"Why? If you saw a person being attacked, would you:- 1/ run away and do nothing? 2/ call others to help and restrain the attacker until the Police arrived? 3/ film it for YouTube? | |||
"Depends on the definition of vigilante, if you mean should we give a good kicking and citizens arrest anyone we see committing an actual crime. Yes we should. And the Police should turn a blind eye to the guilty party bruises and complaints. If you mean going around giving punishment beatings to those suspected of crime, no. Has to be heat of the moment and actually involved in crime at the time.
This worries me!
Why? If you saw a person being attacked, would you:-
1/ run away and do nothing?
2/ call others to help and restrain the attacker until the Police arrived?
3/ film it for YouTube?
"To allow vigilantes punish people without a fair trial is unethical , illegal and has no place in a democracy.. Let's hope it never becomes reality. | |||
"Depends on the definition of vigilante, if you mean should we give a good kicking and citizens arrest anyone we see committing an actual crime. Yes we should. And the Police should turn a blind eye to the guilty party bruises and complaints. If you mean going around giving punishment beatings to those suspected of crime, no. Has to be heat of the moment and actually involved in crime at the time.
This worries me!
Why? If you saw a person being attacked, would you:-
1/ run away and do nothing?
2/ call others to help and restrain the attacker until the Police arrived?
3/ film it for YouTube?
"4/ Hoof them in the slats while shouting Worldstar! | |||
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"There was an estate that did this year's ago. A couple of burgled had broken into several properties, the police came and did their bit but couldn't do much. The estate got pissed and formed a group of vigilantes, they finally caught the two the burglars after a week. The police posted patrols to make sure the vigilantes didn't beat the crap out of the burglars, funny thing though the vigilantes weren't angry when they got the thieves they were calm and happy. The vigilantes did spread photos of thieves all over the borough though, pubs, shops, churches and even lamp posts." That's a happy ending. | |||
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"Arm the police. Curbside justice!
We have armed police here. It changes nothing."No we don't. @5-6% of police are armed. | |||
"Arm the police. Curbside justice!
We have armed police here. It changes nothing.
No we don't. @5-6% of police are armed."I currently live in Northern Ireland. Every single officer carries a firearm. Sometimes they are even requi_ed to use them. | |||
"How about vigilante paedophile hunters then? " Why do they never get it wrong either. We have a laws and justice system in this country for a reason. Its alleged to be the sign off a civilised society... | |||
"How about vigilante paedophile hunters then? Why do they never get it wrong either. We have a laws and justice system in this country for a reason. Its alleged to be the sign off a civilised society..." Generally they go online pretending to be children, arrange to meet the paedophiles, record the meeting and then hand it over to the police. Not sure what they are getting wrong? | |||
"How about vigilante paedophile hunters then? Why do they never get it wrong either. We have a laws and justice system in this country for a reason. Its alleged to be the sign off a civilised society... Generally they go online pretending to be children, arrange to meet the paedophiles, record the meeting and then hand it over to the police. Not sure what they are getting wrong? " Apart from the fact they don't. The vigilante element as many recent convictions prove regularly step outside the law and extract their own "justice" Any form of vigilante behaviour is completely unacceptable. That's why we have a justice system....It's meant to prevent the law if the jungle. | |||
"How about vigilante paedophile hunters then? Why do they never get it wrong either. We have a laws and justice system in this country for a reason. Its alleged to be the sign off a civilised society... Generally they go online pretending to be children, arrange to meet the paedophiles, record the meeting and then hand it over to the police. Not sure what they are getting wrong? Apart from the fact they don't. The vigilante element as many recent convictions prove regularly step outside the law and extract their own "justice" Any form of vigilante behaviour is completely unacceptable. That's why we have a justice system....It's meant to prevent the law if the jungle." Assume they do what I said, do you think that's a good thing? No harming the accused. No threats beyond stating they will hand over all the evidence to the police. | |||
"How about vigilante paedophile hunters then? Why do they never get it wrong either. We have a laws and justice system in this country for a reason. Its alleged to be the sign off a civilised society... Generally they go online pretending to be children, arrange to meet the paedophiles, record the meeting and then hand it over to the police. Not sure what they are getting wrong? Apart from the fact they don't. The vigilante element as many recent convictions prove regularly step outside the law and extract their own "justice" Any form of vigilante behaviour is completely unacceptable. That's why we have a justice system....It's meant to prevent the law if the jungle." What about situational vigilantism when there's no time to call the police? Like the time I was driving home late one night through Tadcaster a couple of years back and saw a lad dragging his girlfriend down the street by her hair whilst screaming at her, I didn't even think about calling the police, I just instinctively stopped the car, jumped out and went after him. | |||
"How about vigilante paedophile hunters then? Why do they never get it wrong either. We have a laws and justice system in this country for a reason. Its alleged to be the sign off a civilised society... Generally they go online pretending to be children, arrange to meet the paedophiles, record the meeting and then hand it over to the police. Not sure what they are getting wrong? Apart from the fact they don't. The vigilante element as many recent convictions prove regularly step outside the law and extract their own "justice" Any form of vigilante behaviour is completely unacceptable. That's why we have a justice system....It's meant to prevent the law if the jungle. What about situational vigilantism when there's no time to call the police? Like the time I was driving home late one night through Tadcaster a couple of years back and saw a lad dragging his girlfriend down the street by her hair whilst screaming at her, I didn't even think about calling the police, I just instinctively stopped the car, jumped out and went after him. " That's not vigilantism though - that's going to the aid of someone in need which is somewhat different from mobs of people marauding the streets looking for the perpetrator of a crime after the event | |||
"Depends on the definition of vigilante, if you mean should we give a good kicking and citizens arrest anyone we see committing an actual crime. Yes we should. And the Police should turn a blind eye to the guilty party bruises and complaints. If you mean going around giving punishment beatings to those suspected of crime, no. Has to be heat of the moment and actually involved in crime at the time.
This worries me!
Why? If you saw a person being attacked, would you:-
1/ run away and do nothing?
2/ call others to help and restrain the attacker until the Police arrived?
3/ film it for YouTube?
To allow vigilantes punish people without a fair trial is unethical , illegal and has no place in a democracy.. Let's hope it never becomes reality."That is rather avoiding my point. I said punishment beatings are crossing the line, but a citizens arrest should be the answer to any crime witnessed if there are enough citizens to overpower the criminal. Problem is the Police are usually keen on letting the criminals go and arresting those who stop the crime. | |||
"Depends on the definition of vigilante, if you mean should we give a good kicking and citizens arrest anyone we see committing an actual crime. Yes we should. And the Police should turn a blind eye to the guilty party bruises and complaints. If you mean going around giving punishment beatings to those suspected of crime, no. Has to be heat of the moment and actually involved in crime at the time.
This worries me!
Why? If you saw a person being attacked, would you:-
1/ run away and do nothing?
2/ call others to help and restrain the attacker until the Police arrived?
3/ film it for YouTube?
To allow vigilantes punish people without a fair trial is unethical , illegal and has no place in a democracy.. Let's hope it never becomes reality.
That is rather avoiding my point. I said punishment beatings are crossing the line, but a citizens arrest should be the answer to any crime witnessed if there are enough citizens to overpower the criminal.
Problem is the Police are usually keen on letting the criminals go and arresting those who stop the crime."Actually you've contradicted yourself there - in your original post you said "if you mean should we give a good kicking and citizens arrest anyone we see committing an actual crime. Yes we should. And the Police should turn a blind eye to the guilty party bruises and complaints." Yet now you are saying punishment beatings are crossing the line - so if your first post stands, I can totally understand why someone would be worried by it. Restraining someone using reasonable force is one thing (and something the police have to adhere to) giving them a "good kicking" and having the police turn a "blind eye to bruises" is quite something else!! | |||
"The police don't have the resources to fight all the crime. There's been a few stories lately of the General Public disarming people with knives, knocking thieves off their scooters etc. Should we ditch Neighbourhood Watch and turn vigilante? Take back our towns and cities. " Hell yes. What time?  | |||
"How bout we just fund the police so that they can do the job properly? Where will the money come from? NHS needs money too. Well the tories could stop giving tax breaks to the richest and cracked down on tax avoidence/evasion. Exactly this! It doesn’t help they’re cutting funding for the NHS, police etc and I’m sorry but vigilante groups isn’t the answer It's populist nonsense in afriad. A clever sounding version of "the money tree". The tax gap, adjusted for inflation, is essentially the same as it was in 1997 when the Labour manifesto promised to close it. Spolier alert, they failed. If you were a higher rate tax payer then you'd know that taxes have gone up. The Tories are smart enough not to change the % but they lowe_ed the band's at which you pay the higher rate and didn't adjust them for inflation. And yet the wealth gap between the richest and poorest continues to grow exponentially. Yes and that's a problem. The most obvious reason for that is the fucking bank bail out that never should have happened. But people who live in a country with free education, healthcare and housing, but can't help themselves are also part of the problem. " Is that truly the issue? We have higher rates of employment now than any period in the last 20 years yet the wealth gap continues to grow alarmingly. There is something truly wrong when top company executives can earn £47m a year.... Sorry how many times more than the lowest paid in the company is that? Since the 60's when company execs rarely earned more than 10 times more than the average employee to today ....seems we have gone full circle and back to the 1800's. And when companies fail, top execs still walk away with their bonuses and pension pots. | |||
"How bout we just fund the police so that they can do the job properly? Where will the money come from? NHS needs money too. Well the tories could stop giving tax breaks to the richest and cracked down on tax avoidence/evasion. Exactly this! It doesn’t help they’re cutting funding for the NHS, police etc and I’m sorry but vigilante groups isn’t the answer It's populist nonsense in afriad. A clever sounding version of "the money tree". The tax gap, adjusted for inflation, is essentially the same as it was in 1997 when the Labour manifesto promised to close it. Spolier alert, they failed. If you were a higher rate tax payer then you'd know that taxes have gone up. The Tories are smart enough not to change the % but they lowe_ed the band's at which you pay the higher rate and didn't adjust them for inflation. And yet the wealth gap between the richest and poorest continues to grow exponentially. Yes and that's a problem. The most obvious reason for that is the fucking bank bail out that never should have happened. But people who live in a country with free education, healthcare and housing, but can't help themselves are also part of the problem. Is that truly the issue? We have higher rates of employment now than any period in the last 20 years yet the wealth gap continues to grow alarmingly. There is something truly wrong when top company executives can earn £47m a year.... Sorry how many times more than the lowest paid in the company is that? Since the 60's when company execs rarely earned more than 10 times more than the average employee to today ....seems we have gone full circle and back to the 1800's. And when companies fail, top execs still walk away with their bonuses and pension pots. " I'm far more concerned with the socialist culture of rewards for failure, than what the rewards for success are as a ratio of anything | |||
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"Arguing about the good and bad of public beatings are fruitless, nobody really wants it and unless we get on top of law and order we're going to get it." But how do we get on top of it? Less police, more reliability on CCTV which films everyone except those with criminal intent as they know where the cameras are and cover their faces. And if you do make a citizens arrest despite the mugger having a knife and threatening the victim with it, because 3 of us knocked him to the ground we spent longer in the Police cells than he did. Had the Police been there he probably would have been pepper sprayed knocked to the ground hand cuffed possibly electrocuted, and the arresting officers would have been congratulated not locked up
But I would do it again, because if we don't look after each other, who will? | |||
"Arguing about the good and bad of public beatings are fruitless, nobody really wants it and unless we get on top of law and order we're going to get it. But how do we get on top of it? Less police, more reliability on CCTV which films everyone except those with criminal intent as they know where the cameras are and cover their faces. And if you do make a citizens arrest despite the mugger having a knife and threatening the victim with it, because 3 of us knocked him to the ground we spent longer in the Police cells than he did. Had the Police been there he probably would have been pepper sprayed knocked to the ground hand cuffed possibly electrocuted, and the arresting officers would have been congratulated not locked up
But I would do it again, because if we don't look after each other, who will?". I think the first step is being tougher on petty crime followed by tough sentences for persistent offenders and decent reform and education while inside. | |||
"How bout we just fund the police so that they can do the job properly? Where will the money come from? NHS needs money too. Well the tories could stop giving tax breaks to the richest and cracked down on tax avoidence/evasion. Exactly this! It doesn’t help they’re cutting funding for the NHS, police etc and I’m sorry but vigilante groups isn’t the answer It's populist nonsense in afriad. A clever sounding version of "the money tree". The tax gap, adjusted for inflation, is essentially the same as it was in 1997 when the Labour manifesto promised to close it. Spolier alert, they failed. If you were a higher rate tax payer then you'd know that taxes have gone up. The Tories are smart enough not to change the % but they lowe_ed the band's at which you pay the higher rate and didn't adjust them for inflation. And yet the wealth gap between the richest and poorest continues to grow exponentially. Yes and that's a problem. The most obvious reason for that is the fucking bank bail out that never should have happened. But people who live in a country with free education, healthcare and housing, but can't help themselves are also part of the problem. Is that truly the issue? We have higher rates of employment now than any period in the last 20 years yet the wealth gap continues to grow alarmingly. There is something truly wrong when top company executives can earn £47m a year.... Sorry how many times more than the lowest paid in the company is that? Since the 60's when company execs rarely earned more than 10 times more than the average employee to today ....seems we have gone full circle and back to the 1800's. And when companies fail, top execs still walk away with their bonuses and pension pots. " We only have the highest rates of employment because the figures are misrepresentative. Low unemployment is historically consistent with wage rises way above inflation and never consistent with a static job market. | |||
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" I think the first step is being tougher on petty crime followed by tough sentences for persistent offenders and decent reform and education while inside." This. A police friend catches the same guy time and time again committing burglaries. Put before magistrates, given stupid non custodial sentence AGAIN and goes back to burgle someone else, safe in the knowledge that they'll not bother doing the community service, can't pay a fine from already fined benefits and won't be imprisoned. Guilty of burglary - 5 years automatic. No discount, no good behaviour etc. He won't be burgling for at least 5 years. Repeat offence? 10 years next time. That will _educe it by an awful amount. Then on to prison reform. Zero drugs. Solitary if found with any. Visitors like the American style jails glass screen and recorded phones to talk to visitors. No way to hand stuff over. ECM bubble aroubd prison to kill mobiles and stop drones dropping in drugs. Severe punishments for staff bringing in drugs. Make prison unpleasant. Radios for the best behaved. No tv, no home comforts. Learn your lesson. Same for violent crimes, robbery and other inhuman crimes. Punish them hard first time. No shit excuses. They did NOT "Make a mistake" they committed a crime!! | |||
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