FabSwingers.com > Forums > The Lounge > Gender bias
Gender bias
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By (user no longer on site) OP
over a year ago
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Quite often on here the claim is thrown out; ‘If a man had posted that, the reaction would have been different,’ and I’ve often wondered or even seen the same thread posted by a single guy or single female with wildly differing results.
My question is; do you think that you react differently to posts from different genders? |
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"Quite often on here the claim is thrown out; ‘If a man had posted that, the reaction would have been different,’ and I’ve often wondered or even seen the same thread posted by a single guy or single female with wildly differing results.
My question is; do you think that you react differently to posts from different genders? "
Yup  |
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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago
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"Quite often on here the claim is thrown out; ‘If a man had posted that, the reaction would have been different,’ and I’ve often wondered or even seen the same thread posted by a single guy or single female with wildly differing results.
My question is; do you think that you react differently to posts from different genders? "
I try not to. I don't treat women with kid gloves like some people on here do. I find it quite insulting to be honest.
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By (user no longer on site) OP
over a year ago
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"Quite often on here the claim is thrown out; ‘If a man had posted that, the reaction would have been different,’ and I’ve often wondered or even seen the same thread posted by a single guy or single female with wildly differing results.
My question is; do you think that you react differently to posts from different genders?
Yup "
Succinct answer! Why is that? |
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By (user no longer on site) OP
over a year ago
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"Quite often on here the claim is thrown out; ‘If a man had posted that, the reaction would have been different,’ and I’ve often wondered or even seen the same thread posted by a single guy or single female with wildly differing results.
My question is; do you think that you react differently to posts from different genders?
I try not to. I don't treat women with kid gloves like some people on here do. I find it quite insulting to be honest.
"
I know that a large chunk of it is based around sexual attraction for SM’s interactions with SF’s and the ‘competition’ perception with SM’s. |
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Yes and no. I'm generally fair and balanced in my responses but sometimes there is a gender specific element to a poster's question - to ignore that would be a failure to be pertinent in many instances.
Otherwise, a disrespectful stance is inappropriate from and for anyone. |
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I've been told that I'm a single man hater for arguing a point where I'm right.
What people don't realise is that I'll do the same whoever posted (single male, single female, couple, or tv), it's just more noticeable because there are more men on the site. |
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"Quite often on here the claim is thrown out; ‘If a man had posted that, the reaction would have been different,’ and I’ve often wondered or even seen the same thread posted by a single guy or single female with wildly differing results.
My question is; do you think that you react differently to posts from different genders?
Yup
Succinct answer! Why is that? "
Cos I fancy men, so I interact with them much more.  |
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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago
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"Quite often on here the claim is thrown out; ‘If a man had posted that, the reaction would have been different,’ and I’ve often wondered or even seen the same thread posted by a single guy or single female with wildly differing results.
My question is; do you think that you react differently to posts from different genders?
I try not to. I don't treat women with kid gloves like some people on here do. I find it quite insulting to be honest.
I know that a large chunk of it is based around sexual attraction for SM’s interactions with SF’s and the ‘competition’ perception with SM’s."
You mean they are scared to say something negative in case it ruins their chances of meeting them? |
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By (user no longer on site) OP
over a year ago
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"Quite often on here the claim is thrown out; ‘If a man had posted that, the reaction would have been different,’ and I’ve often wondered or even seen the same thread posted by a single guy or single female with wildly differing results.
My question is; do you think that you react differently to posts from different genders?
I try not to. I don't treat women with kid gloves like some people on here do. I find it quite insulting to be honest.
I know that a large chunk of it is based around sexual attraction for SM’s interactions with SF’s and the ‘competition’ perception with SM’s.
You mean they are scared to say something negative in case it ruins their chances of meeting them?"
Absolutely, especially if they’re a relatively new poster.
I do also think that gender stereotypes come into play to a certain degree too, guys are expected to ‘suck things up’ and to not react emotionally to things. |
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By (user no longer on site) OP
over a year ago
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"Yes and no. I'm generally fair and balanced in my responses but sometimes there is a gender specific element to a poster's question - to ignore that would be a failure to be pertinent in many instances.
Otherwise, a disrespectful stance is inappropriate from and for anyone. "
I do think that a balanced approach is how I try to post and treat each gender equally as much as possible. |
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By (user no longer on site) OP
over a year ago
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"Quite often on here the claim is thrown out; ‘If a man had posted that, the reaction would have been different,’ and I’ve often wondered or even seen the same thread posted by a single guy or single female with wildly differing results.
My question is; do you think that you react differently to posts from different genders?
Yup
Succinct answer! Why is that?
Cos I fancy men, so I interact with them much more. "
Do you think that you react equally though on non gender based topics? |
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By *ynecplCouple
over a year ago
Newcastle upon Tyne |
I don't but on here I have seen more or less the exact same post get different responses, ironically the biggest culprits are the guys who are the worst offenders, presumably they hope that by being nice to a female op they will get noticed. |
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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago
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I usually react to the words and not the person. Unless it's something specific.
I think there's sometimes also a difference in reactions depending on how hot the person is. Hot men are treated differently for example. |
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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago
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Maybe. It's easy to misconstrue the context behind people's points in the written form on a forum?
I guess I'm guilty of assuming the odd man is trying to make snide comments, or the odd woman is rather lacking humour, but I guess that's my failing.
Choosing words on here is important as you don't get much of a chance to elaborate before you're set upon by the pack!! |
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"I usually react to the words and not the person. Unless it's something specific.
I think there's sometimes also a difference in reactions depending on how hot the person is. Hot men are treated differently for example. "
They are, so are young men and not in a good way. |
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"Quite often on here the claim is thrown out; ‘If a man had posted that, the reaction would have been different,’ and I’ve often wondered or even seen the same thread posted by a single guy or single female with wildly differing results.
My question is; do you think that you react differently to posts from different genders?
Yup
Succinct answer! Why is that?
Cos I fancy men, so I interact with them much more.
Do you think that you react equally though on non gender based topics? "
To be honest no, though it will not change my opinion or my stance in a debate. But I know respond to the sexes differently. |
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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago
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"I usually react to the words and not the person. Unless it's something specific.
I think there's sometimes also a difference in reactions depending on how hot the person is. Hot men are treated differently for example.
They are, so are young men and not in a good way."
The hounding of young men is awful. It reads like people urging a person to jump off a bridge.  |
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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago
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" Maybe. It's easy to misconstrue the context behind people's points in the written form on a forum?
I guess I'm guilty of assuming the odd man is trying to make snide comments, or the odd woman is rather lacking humour, but I guess that's my failing.
Choosing words on here is important as you don't get much of a chance to elaborate before you're set upon by the pack!!"
I agree, humour or sarcasm don't always come across in words on a screen.
The pack don't bother me. I've had a couple of people hound me on some threads which was odd to say the least. |
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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago
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"I usually react to the words and not the person. Unless it's something specific.
I think there's sometimes also a difference in reactions depending on how hot the person is. Hot men are treated differently for example.
They are, so are young men and not in a good way.
The hounding of young men is awful. It reads like people urging a person to jump off a bridge. "
I think you're quite right! Some people are a little awkward in how they express themselves and interact, and at times it does seem there's folk just waiting to ambush someone and call them out in front of others? Looking for the confrontation as opposed to the thought behind the words? |
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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago
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"I usually react to the words and not the person. Unless it's something specific.
I think there's sometimes also a difference in reactions depending on how hot the person is. Hot men are treated differently for example.
They are, so are young men and not in a good way.
The hounding of young men is awful. It reads like people urging a person to jump off a bridge. "
I think that's an age thing. The average age of a forum poster is definitely 30+. I think it's a sort of expectation of entitlement that some people just react negatively to. |
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" Maybe. It's easy to misconstrue the context behind people's points in the written form on a forum?
I guess I'm guilty of assuming the odd man is trying to make snide comments, or the odd woman is rather lacking humour, but I guess that's my failing.
Choosing words on here is important as you don't get much of a chance to elaborate before you're set upon by the pack!!
I agree, humour or sarcasm don't always come across in words on a screen.
The pack don't bother me. I've had a couple of people hound me on some threads which was odd to say the least. "
I've also seen you hound people. |
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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago
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" Maybe. It's easy to misconstrue the context behind people's points in the written form on a forum?
I guess I'm guilty of assuming the odd man is trying to make snide comments, or the odd woman is rather lacking humour, but I guess that's my failing.
Choosing words on here is important as you don't get much of a chance to elaborate before you're set upon by the pack!!
I agree, humour or sarcasm don't always come across in words on a screen.
The pack don't bother me. I've had a couple of people hound me on some threads which was odd to say the least.
I've also seen you hound people."
Tell me if I'm hounding. It's not my intention. I disagree often. |
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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago
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I tend to post based on subject content, rather than gender and my comment would be the same, regardless of which sex commented. I have witnessed different reactions that some people get, based on who they are. For that reason, i do believe it exists. Though not everyone who posts on the forum are guilty of it, thankfully  |
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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago
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" Maybe. It's easy to misconstrue the context behind people's points in the written form on a forum?
I guess I'm guilty of assuming the odd man is trying to make snide comments, or the odd woman is rather lacking humour, but I guess that's my failing.
Choosing words on here is important as you don't get much of a chance to elaborate before you're set upon by the pack!!
I agree, humour or sarcasm don't always come across in words on a screen.
The pack don't bother me. I've had a couple of people hound me on some threads which was odd to say the least.
I've also seen you hound people.
Tell me if I'm hounding. It's not my intention. I disagree often. "
I see it more as wanting someone to elaborate more, so you can gain a better understanding of a person's mindset, when they post an opinion that differs from your own. You are curious to hear all sides. That's always been my take on the way you post/comment . |
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" Maybe. It's easy to misconstrue the context behind people's points in the written form on a forum?
I guess I'm guilty of assuming the odd man is trying to make snide comments, or the odd woman is rather lacking humour, but I guess that's my failing.
Choosing words on here is important as you don't get much of a chance to elaborate before you're set upon by the pack!!
I agree, humour or sarcasm don't always come across in words on a screen.
The pack don't bother me. I've had a couple of people hound me on some threads which was odd to say the least.
I've also seen you hound people.
Tell me if I'm hounding. It's not my intention. I disagree often.
I see it more as wanting someone to elaborate more, so you can gain a better understanding of a person's mindset, when they post an opinion that differs from your own. You are curious to hear all sides. That's always been my take on the way you post/comment . "
Unfortunately there is a difference between being curious and plain nastiness. There are a couple of ladies who have decided to rescue single men by becoming white knights.
They also victim blame a lot. |
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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago
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" Maybe. It's easy to misconstrue the context behind people's points in the written form on a forum?
I guess I'm guilty of assuming the odd man is trying to make snide comments, or the odd woman is rather lacking humour, but I guess that's my failing.
Choosing words on here is important as you don't get much of a chance to elaborate before you're set upon by the pack!!
I agree, humour or sarcasm don't always come across in words on a screen.
The pack don't bother me. I've had a couple of people hound me on some threads which was odd to say the least.
I've also seen you hound people.
Tell me if I'm hounding. It's not my intention. I disagree often.
I see it more as wanting someone to elaborate more, so you can gain a better understanding of a person's mindset, when they post an opinion that differs from your own. You are curious to hear all sides. That's always been my take on the way you post/comment .
Unfortunately there is a difference between being curious and plain nastiness. There are a couple of ladies who have decided to rescue single men by becoming white knights.
They also victim blame a lot."
Ah I know what you mean now. A misunderstanding. |
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"I don't but on here I have seen more or less the exact same post get different responses, ironically the biggest culprits are the guys who are the worst offenders, presumably they hope that by being nice to a female op they will get noticed. "
This is interesting because this is not my experience...I have found women wonderfully sympathetic & understanding & men less so.
One man recently pursued a relentless character assassination of me via PM.
I'm wondering if it is the way different genders express themselves? |
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" Maybe. It's easy to misconstrue the context behind people's points in the written form on a forum?
I guess I'm guilty of assuming the odd man is trying to make snide comments, or the odd woman is rather lacking humour, but I guess that's my failing.
Choosing words on here is important as you don't get much of a chance to elaborate before you're set upon by the pack!!
I agree, humour or sarcasm don't always come across in words on a screen.
The pack don't bother me. I've had a couple of people hound me on some threads which was odd to say the least.
I've also seen you hound people.
Tell me if I'm hounding. It's not my intention. I disagree often.
I see it more as wanting someone to elaborate more, so you can gain a better understanding of a person's mindset, when they post an opinion that differs from your own. You are curious to hear all sides. That's always been my take on the way you post/comment .
Unfortunately there is a difference between being curious and plain nastiness. There are a couple of ladies who have decided to rescue single men by becoming white knights.
They also victim blame a lot.
Ah I know what you mean now. A misunderstanding. "
A misunderstanding would only happen once. |
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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago
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"I don't but on here I have seen more or less the exact same post get different responses, ironically the biggest culprits are the guys who are the worst offenders, presumably they hope that by being nice to a female op they will get noticed.
This is interesting because this is not my experience...I have found women wonderfully sympathetic & understanding & men less so.
One man recently pursued a relentless character assassination of me via PM.
I'm wondering if it is the way different genders express themselves? "
Had the rude PM guy replied to you on a thread? Or was it only via PM? |
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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago
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"
Yet another well balanced, thought provoking, forum post.
#HeKnowsWhatHesDoing
Was just checking if because of my gender Id get ignored.
Thanks guys 
I'd have ignored whatever gender you were  "
I clearly can see that |
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"I don't but on here I have seen more or less the exact same post get different responses, ironically the biggest culprits are the guys who are the worst offenders, presumably they hope that by being nice to a female op they will get noticed.
This is interesting because this is not my experience...I have found women wonderfully sympathetic & understanding & men less so.
One man recently pursued a relentless character assassination of me via PM.
I'm wondering if it is the way different genders express themselves? "
What the heck did you post about? Not that I think you did anything wrong, just curious. |
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By *emini ManMan
over a year ago
There and to the left a bit |
Whilst I think it does happen that people react differently for the various reasons already mentioned I think a LOT depends on the way a post is worded too - a lot of the men that get negative reactions (who tend to be the ones bemoaning their "luck" on here) post negatively in the first place and then react negatively to any genuine guidance they are given.
A good example of this happened a week or so ago when a guy posted that he wasn't getting meets and suggested the site was full of fakers - it was pointed out that the fact he in his profile was looking for "sluts" and various other derogatory terms might be a reason for this - his reaction? To go on the offensive to the point the thread descended into carnage. And that situation is not un-typical.
Had a woman have posted similar she'd have got similar advice but I'd wager 9/10 she'd have listened and made adjustments accordingly.
So it's approach on both sides of the fence - post negatively and you'll likely get a negative reaction - post positively and be prepared to listen and the reaction may be slightly different.
Personally I will always try and give a balanced and honest opinion based on the words before me  |
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By *abs..Woman
over a year ago
.. |
I just pop in and comment then go off again. The gender of the OP of anyone commenting is irrelevant to what I would post. I don’t think gender enters my head.
I’m cautious about commenting on some posts but that’s not gender based that more ‘I’m not here to get into a Fan fiasco’ thing |
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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago
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"Quite often on here the claim is thrown out; ‘If a man had posted that, the reaction would have been different,’ and I’ve often wondered or even seen the same thread posted by a single guy or single female with wildly differing results.
My question is; do you think that you react differently to posts from different genders? "
of course few guys are going to say anything negative to a woman they aspire to meet, for me I say what I think and the woman I want to meet can debate it if not ce La vie |
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"I don't but on here I have seen more or less the exact same post get different responses, ironically the biggest culprits are the guys who are the worst offenders, presumably they hope that by being nice to a female op they will get noticed.
This is interesting because this is not my experience...I have found women wonderfully sympathetic & understanding & men less so.
One man recently pursued a relentless character assassination of me via PM.
I'm wondering if it is the way different genders express themselves?
What the heck did you post about? Not that I think you did anything wrong, just curious."
To: Co§ta...yes he did ask questions on the thread.
In fairness I did ask people NOT to give legal opinions on a thread where a guy was asking about a financial settlement in divorce. Some things people were saying were very misleading and just because it was true for them did not mean it would apply to the OP.
A case of...should have minded my own business, me thinks  |
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By (user no longer on site) OP
over a year ago
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"Since we aren’t in the slightest bit interested in meeting anyone from the forums , I’m happy to say we don’t treat anyone differently because of their sex .
"
I do think that this is a key point |
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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago
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"I don't but on here I have seen more or less the exact same post get different responses, ironically the biggest culprits are the guys who are the worst offenders, presumably they hope that by being nice to a female op they will get noticed.
This is interesting because this is not my experience...I have found women wonderfully sympathetic & understanding & men less so.
One man recently pursued a relentless character assassination of me via PM.
I'm wondering if it is the way different genders express themselves?
What the heck did you post about? Not that I think you did anything wrong, just curious.
To: Co§ta...yes he did ask questions on the thread.
In fairness I did ask people NOT to give legal opinions on a thread where a guy was asking about a financial settlement in divorce. Some things people were saying were very misleading and just because it was true for them did not mean it would apply to the OP.
A case of...should have minded my own business, me thinks "
I was thinking that maybe he was aggressive in PM but not on the thread. Hiding his true thoughts.
Hope you reported his abusive messages. I remember the thread, you made good points. I hope it doesn't put you off posting. |
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By (user no longer on site) OP
over a year ago
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"I see the tread has mentioned the difference in attitude to genders, but hasn't yet addressed why TVs generally get ignored."
I don’t know why that is the case, however the OP was questioning about genders and was intended as non binary. Why do you think that TV’s are ignored generally? I can’t say that I’ve noticed that being the case any more so than a SM may be. |
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By *issmorganWoman
over a year ago
Calderdale innit |
I think men can get a tougher time if they mention cheating for example ,whilst there are quite a few female posters who are here doing the same.
Also of a man posts about time wasters,often he's told to man up and it happens ,I've seen women get much different replies.
So yes in my view there is a gender bias here. |
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By (user no longer on site) OP
over a year ago
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"I think men can get a tougher time if they mention cheating for example ,whilst there are quite a few female posters who are here doing the same.
Also of a man posts about time wasters,often he's told to man up and it happens ,I've seen women get much different replies.
So yes in my view there is a gender bias here."
Yes, I did touch on that point ^^ when I mentioned gender stereotypes. I think it’s a salient point though that men are not ‘allowed’ to have an emotional response to things. |
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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago
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"Replies should be based on content not gender, and people see things only from there perspective with a host of assumptions."
I fancy a go at windsurfing |
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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago
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The Ops question was though do we react differently if a woman posts something contentious as opposed to a man and the answer definitely is yes, women get away with more and also get supported more within the thread |
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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago
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No I don't. I voice my opinion the same no matter what gender. I've seen women get absoloutely slated on here about certain subjects too and even bullied off the site.
People can be harsh and judgemental and just down right cruel at times, it saddens me.
Single men do seem to get the brunt of it if in here too which is unfair. There truly are some good guys on here but often get tarred with the same brush as some of the single men who have joined here thinking they are entitled to sex. |
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By *issmorganWoman
over a year ago
Calderdale innit |
"I think men can get a tougher time if they mention cheating for example ,whilst there are quite a few female posters who are here doing the same.
Also of a man posts about time wasters,often he's told to man up and it happens ,I've seen women get much different replies.
So yes in my view there is a gender bias here.
Yes, I did touch on that point ^^ when I mentioned gender stereotypes. I think it’s a salient point though that men are not ‘allowed’ to have an emotional response to things. "
Agreed,people's sometimes forget that male or female it's still a person posting . |
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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago
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"Replies should be based on content not gender, and people see things only from there perspective with a host of assumptions."
If you've met someone in real life you'll have a better understanding of how they are. It's difficult to know what people really mean just by reading words on a screen. |
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By (user no longer on site) OP
over a year ago
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"I think men can get a tougher time if they mention cheating for example ,whilst there are quite a few female posters who are here doing the same.
Also of a man posts about time wasters,often he's told to man up and it happens ,I've seen women get much different replies.
So yes in my view there is a gender bias here.
Yes, I did touch on that point ^^ when I mentioned gender stereotypes. I think it’s a salient point though that men are not ‘allowed’ to have an emotional response to things.
Agreed,people's sometimes forget that male or female it's still a person posting ."
That’s very true, they also forget that these real people have lives and jobs and don’t sit by their screens constantly horny. If people realised that not everything is a flirting opportunity then perhaps many threads would go very differently... |
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By *issmorganWoman
over a year ago
Calderdale innit |
"I think men can get a tougher time if they mention cheating for example ,whilst there are quite a few female posters who are here doing the same.
Also of a man posts about time wasters,often he's told to man up and it happens ,I've seen women get much different replies.
So yes in my view there is a gender bias here.
Yes, I did touch on that point ^^ when I mentioned gender stereotypes. I think it’s a salient point though that men are not ‘allowed’ to have an emotional response to things.
Agreed,people's sometimes forget that male or female it's still a person posting .
That’s very true, they also forget that these real people have lives and jobs and don’t sit by their screens constantly horny. If people realised that not everything is a flirting opportunity then perhaps many threads would go very differently... "
I think you've hit the nail on the head there Tea monkey . |
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"I see the tread has mentioned the difference in attitude to genders, but hasn't yet addressed why TVs generally get ignored."
If I ever ignore you, I apologise. For me, it has nothing to do with you being a TV, I've either scrolled down so fast I've not seen it, or I don't know how to respond. |
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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago
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"No I don't. I voice my opinion the same no matter what gender. I've seen women get absoloutely slated on here about certain subjects too and even bullied off the site.
People can be harsh and judgemental and just down right cruel at times, it saddens me.
Single men do seem to get the brunt of it if in here too which is unfair. There truly are some good guys on here but often get tarred with the same brush as some of the single men who have joined here thinking they are entitled to sex."
I'm entitled to something surely please |
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"No I don't. I voice my opinion the same no matter what gender. I've seen women get absoloutely slated on here about certain subjects too and even bullied off the site.
People can be harsh and judgemental and just down right cruel at times, it saddens me.
Single men do seem to get the brunt of it if in here too which is unfair. There truly are some good guys on here but often get tarred with the same brush as some of the single men who have joined here thinking they are entitled to sex.I'm entitled to something surely please "
Nah. |
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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago
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"Quite often on here the claim is thrown out; ‘If a man had posted that, the reaction would have been different,’ and I’ve often wondered or even seen the same thread posted by a single guy or single female with wildly differing results.
My question is; do you think that you react differently to posts from different genders?
I try not to. I don't treat women with kid gloves like some people on here do. I find it quite insulting to be honest.
"
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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago
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"No I don't. I voice my opinion the same no matter what gender. I've seen women get absoloutely slated on here about certain subjects too and even bullied off the site.
People can be harsh and judgemental and just down right cruel at times, it saddens me.
Single men do seem to get the brunt of it if in here too which is unfair. There truly are some good guys on here but often get tarred with the same brush as some of the single men who have joined here thinking they are entitled to sex.I'm entitled to something surely please
Nah."
harsh |
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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago
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"I see the tread has mentioned the difference in attitude to genders, but hasn't yet addressed why TVs generally get ignored.
If I ever ignore you, I apologise. For me, it has nothing to do with you being a TV, I've either scrolled down so fast I've not seen it, or I don't know how to respond."
men get ignored all the time I mean what's going on |
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By (user no longer on site) OP
over a year ago
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"I see the tread has mentioned the difference in attitude to genders, but hasn't yet addressed why TVs generally get ignored.
If I ever ignore you, I apologise. For me, it has nothing to do with you being a TV, I've either scrolled down so fast I've not seen it, or I don't know how to respond.men get ignored all the time I mean what's going on "
It all depends on the validity of your comment, also people have a tendency to look for replies to their own comments or for the comments of friends. It’s not a gender bias thing. |
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"I see the tread has mentioned the difference in attitude to genders, but hasn't yet addressed why TVs generally get ignored.
If I ever ignore you, I apologise. For me, it has nothing to do with you being a TV, I've either scrolled down so fast I've not seen it, or I don't know how to respond.men get ignored all the time I mean what's going on "
Anybody that's not a forum "regular" gets ignored (unless they say something that sticks out). My own first post on this thread was. However, unlike SOME single men, I don't feel aggrieved by it and just carry on with following the thread. |
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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago
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Yep, because man just want to get their ends away even in the forums, so there is always a bit of arse licking from guys towards the female's ..no pun intended |
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