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Jesus is our king.

By (user no longer on site) OP over a year ago

Have the west lost its touch with christianity? I remember as a kid we used to pray at dinner and then before you went to bed, whats your view, have you also noticed a change?

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By *lik and PaulCouple over a year ago

cahoots

I'm not a Christian so couldn't really say but we do live in a secular society.

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By (user no longer on site) over a year ago

Yes and thank God we did.

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By *arlomaleMan over a year ago

darlington

Are we allowed to mention Christianity?

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By *inkyLondonpairCouple over a year ago

London

I grew up in a completely irreligious atmosphere in the seventies. Although we were made to do prayers and sing hymns at school, very few people had any real religious beliefs and those who did were thought to be a bit weird.

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By (user no longer on site) over a year ago

"Are we allowed to mention Christianity? "

Well you just did buddy

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By (user no longer on site) over a year ago

"Are we allowed to mention Christianity?

Well you just did buddy "

Hello Aron

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By (user no longer on site) over a year ago

"Have the west lost its touch with christianity? I remember as a kid we used to pray at dinner and then before you went to bed, whats your view, have you also noticed a change?"
I believe for every drop of rain that falls a peanut grows

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By (user no longer on site) over a year ago

I used to go to Sunday school then church ever Sunday morning from the age of 5 to 14, whereas I never take my children.

Didn't do me any good mind for I've lost my halo in a gutter somewhere

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By (user no longer on site) over a year ago

No use to me

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By (user no longer on site) over a year ago

I went to a Catholic school for a few years (purely because it was the closest school) and was christened. Went to church every Wednesday morning instead of assembly

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By (user no longer on site) over a year ago

"I went to a Catholic school for a few years (purely because it was the closest school) and was christened. Went to church every Wednesday morning instead of assembly

Didn’t do me any good

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By (user no longer on site) over a year ago

"I went to a Catholic school for a few years (purely because it was the closest school) and was christened. Went to church every Wednesday morning instead of assembly

Didn’t do me any good

We are sinners

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By *inkyLondonpairCouple over a year ago

London

To be fair, a swingers site is hardly going to be full of religious types...

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By (user no longer on site) over a year ago

"I grew up in a completely irreligious atmosphere in the seventies. Although we were made to do prayers and sing hymns at school, very few people had any real religious beliefs and those who did were thought to be a bit weird.

That being said, all surveys show that Christianity is a declining religion in the UK. Even on the very broad census definition of adherence, Christianity went down from 71% of the population to. 59% between 2001 and 2011. More focused surveys put it below 50% and church going is now well below. 10%."

I grew up the same thankfully. I really resented having to do religious education at school. I just saw it as a waste of my time.

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By *icecouple561Couple over a year ago
Forum Mod

East Sussex

I grew up in a fairly religious household. We weren't allowed to play cards, always said grace before meals etc. The church we attended was an offshoot of the Quakers and I found it oppressive. No music in church, no women allowed to speak, everyone had to wait for "the spirit" to move someone then sit for ages while they rambled on.

I don't follow any of the major religions now but I am spiritual.

I think people realise that religion is a means of control and recognise the hypocrisy so are moving away from it

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By *innie The MinxWoman over a year ago

Under the Duvet

I'm a heathen and proud of it

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By (user no longer on site) over a year ago

Total atheist here .

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By *ystical_InkedBBWWoman over a year ago

somewhere in the Shire of Derby

I did Religious Studies as a GCSE as they did great school trips lol my son is doing the same. I was christened a Christian but we class ourselves as spiritualists

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By (user no longer on site) over a year ago

"I went to a Catholic school for a few years (purely because it was the closest school) and was christened. Went to church every Wednesday morning instead of assembly

Didn’t do me any good

We are sinners

We really are!

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By *abrielle247Couple (FF) over a year ago

PDI Gran Canaria

I went to convent school and was brought up a strict Catholic, and bullied by over zealous nuns. Probably explains a lot.

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By (user no longer on site) over a year ago

I don’t mean to be offensive, but any organised religion doesn’t have a place in the modern world. They are so flawed and also completely

contradictory. I don’t understand how anyone would believe them.

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By *inkyLondonpairCouple over a year ago

London

I grew up the same thankfully. I really resented having to do religious education at school. I just saw it as a waste of my time. "

Looking back the prayer thing is interesting. We were made to close our eyes and bow our heads whilst the teacher recited a prayer. No one, however, felt that prayer could have any possible effect. Even at primary school kids felt it was some meaningless imposed ritual.

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By (user no longer on site) over a year ago

"I used to go to Sunday school then church ever Sunday morning from the age of 5 to 14, whereas I never take my children.

Didn't do me any good mind for I've lost my halo in a gutter somewhere "
you need to go confess!!

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By *icecouple561Couple over a year ago
Forum Mod

East Sussex

"I don’t mean to be offensive, but any organised religion doesn’t have a place in the modern world. They are so flawed and also completely

contradictory. I don’t understand how anyone would believe them.

Organised religion has a place in the modern world. Millions of people still follow the three main organised religions and actually live their lives according to the teachings. Most world leaders claim to follow the religion of their country.

Individuals choose not to follow religion but we're a long way from being secular.

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By (user no longer on site) over a year ago

Jesus is not my king

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By *inkyLondonpairCouple over a year ago

London

"I don’t mean to be offensive, but any organised religion doesn’t have a place in the modern world. They are so flawed and also completely

contradictory. I don’t understand how anyone would believe them.

Individuals choose not to follow religion but we're a long way from being secular."

The UK is mainly a secular country in that it's only a small minority who seriously follow the teachings of a religion.

Most people who say they adhere to a religion treat it like supporting a football team, as a badge of identity and affiliation rather than paying any attention to its doctrines.

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By (user no longer on site) over a year ago

"I don’t mean to be offensive, but any organised religion doesn’t have a place in the modern world. They are so flawed and also completely

contradictory. I don’t understand how anyone would believe them.

Individuals choose not to follow religion but we're a long way from being secular."

Just because it exists doesn’t mean that it should. Which is what I meant about it not having a place today.

I don’t see how it’s a good thing that people follow a made up oppressive system of rules from 1000’s of years ago - all based on a false threat that you’ll suffer if you don’t do as they say.

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By (user no longer on site) over a year ago

"I went to a Catholic school for a few years (purely because it was the closest school) and was christened. Went to church every Wednesday morning instead of assembly

Didn’t do me any good

We are sinners

We really are!

We wouldn't want it any other way

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By (user no longer on site) over a year ago

Nope. There's still plenty of Christians in the world. Just because you and I don't pray any more, doesn't mean it's lost.

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By *ara JTV/TS over a year ago

Bristol East

Religion - the most enduring "fake news" in the history of the human race

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By *inkyLondonpairCouple over a year ago

London

"Nope. There's still plenty of Christians in the world. Just because you and I don't pray any more, doesn't mean it's lost."

The question was is it declining in the West. If he means Western Europe, it clearly is. All surveys show that.

Just to take one example, Ireland used to be probably the most Catholic country in the world. The people there recently voted for gay marriage and then abortion against the strong opposition of the Catholic Church.

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By (user no longer on site) over a year ago

"Religion - the most enduring "fake news" in the history of the human race"

It was just to get people in line when civilisation didn’t exist

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By *hoenixAdAstraWoman over a year ago

Hiding in the shadows

I had a very religious upbringing, attended a church school, Sunday school every week.

I have my own views on religion, my own interpretation of the bible these days.

I never had my kids christened, and religion is only discussed in my house if something comes on the news.

We always say Grace before eating though.

Well actually we just say the word Grace!

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By (user no longer on site) over a year ago

Religion is proof that people can be made to believe anything...absolutely anything.

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By *rwolfMan over a year ago

bristol

Having studied the bible, i think its hard to believe in a book full of hypocrisy.

Google stephen fry on god and he pretty much nails it on the head.

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By *VineMan over a year ago

The right place

We are living in a post Christian country. Many of the values that we take for granted in our society came from Christianity. Centuries ago the church provided education, hospital care, refuge for those in danger, food for the hungry etc. These functions are now largely provided by government. So faith became very privatised and individual.

Most people that express allegiance to no organised religion still often claim to have times when they pray.

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By (user no longer on site) over a year ago

"Having studied the bible, i think its hard to believe in a book full of hypocrisy.

Google stephen fry on god and he pretty much nails it on the head.

That's great isn't it

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By *ockyjohnMan over a year ago

North West

Christianity - one woman's lie that got seriously out of hand!

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By (user no longer on site) over a year ago

"Having studied the bible, i think its hard to believe in a book full of hypocrisy.

Google stephen fry on god and he pretty much nails it on the head.

Or read 'God is not great (How religion poisons everything)' by Christopher Hitchens.

It's a laugh a minute.

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By *arlomaleMan over a year ago

darlington

People scoffing at Christianity on here what are yous doing on the 25 of December ????? Exactly case closed columbo

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By (user no longer on site) over a year ago

Christianity a hot bed of lust, greed, fornication. We don't do that round here.

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By *AYENCouple over a year ago

Lincolnshire

Anyone who thinks religion is a good idea should watch Borgia (on Netflix) - it shows what it's really about: control, power, money and hypocrisy!

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By (user no longer on site) over a year ago

"Nope. There's still plenty of Christians in the world. Just because you and I don't pray any more, doesn't mean it's lost.

The question was is it declining in the West. If he means Western Europe, it clearly is. All surveys show that.

I recently looked at the stats for Christian births in my area and they were quite high.

I'm assuming they were mostly African women giving birth then, and European Christianity is waning.

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By (user no longer on site) over a year ago

"People scoffing at Christianity on here what are yous doing on the 25 of December ????? Exactly case closed columbo

Treating Dec 25 as just another day. And your point is?

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By (user no longer on site) over a year ago

"Nope. There's still plenty of Christians in the world. Just because you and I don't pray any more, doesn't mean it's lost.

The question was is it declining in the West. If he means Western Europe, it clearly is. All surveys show that.

They are still Catholics though aren't they?

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By (user no longer on site) over a year ago

"People scoffing at Christianity on here what are yous doing on the 25 of December ????? Exactly case closed columbo

I usually work away or on that day. I’ve no desire to celebrate when I can be sat on a beach drinking cocktails like it’s any other day.

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By (user no longer on site) over a year ago

I was brought up Christian and went to church and none of it ever made sense.

When I went through a bad patch I tried again and ended up horrified at what they were spouting in church.

I am spiritual now and it all makes perfect sense and has helped my life and career. But each to their own, I do not judge others.

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By (user no longer on site) over a year ago

[Removed by poster at 05/08/18 12:03:12]

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By *inkyLondonpairCouple over a year ago

London

"Nope. There's still plenty of Christians in the world. Just because you and I don't pray any more, doesn't mean it's lost.

The question was is it declining in the West. If he means Western Europe, it clearly is. All surveys show that.

They are still Catholics though aren't they?"

There are far more who are not than there used to be. Hence the decline.

In any event, even if you call yourself a Catholic and the Catholic Church says that abortion and gay marriage are sins and you vote for them anyway, I would suggest you are not a Catholic in any meaningful sense.

If I say I am a staunch Conservative but always vote Labour, I think you would be questioning my adherence to conservatism.

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By *VineMan over a year ago

The right place

"Anyone who thinks religion is a good idea should watch Borgia (on Netflix) - it shows what it's really about: control, power, money and hypocrisy! "

While I won’t argue that religion has been used for this, so have many other things eg. politics, business, monarchy etc. In short, some humans will use any means possible to exert power. That doesn’t mean that all those things are inherently bad. In fact good religion, points this out and warns against it.

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By *he rover returnedWoman over a year ago

xxx

"Nope. There's still plenty of Christians in the world. Just because you and I don't pray any more, doesn't mean it's lost.

The question was is it declining in the West. If he means Western Europe, it clearly is. All surveys show that.

And amen to that

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By *andybeachWoman over a year ago

In the middle

"Religion - the most enduring "fake news" in the history of the human race

It was just to get people in line when civilisation didn’t exist

This is exactly how I feel, they needed something to keep people in line, be a good person and you shall be rewarded, if you are bad Satan has your soul forever, Satan is the ultimate boogeyman

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By *andybeachWoman over a year ago

In the middle

"People scoffing at Christianity on here what are yous doing on the 25 of December ????? Exactly case closed columbo

That’s only because commercialism has taken over Christmas, children don’t know what it represents, it’s just a time to get the lates Xbox game

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By *icecouple561Couple over a year ago
Forum Mod

East Sussex

"I don’t mean to be offensive, but any organised religion doesn’t have a place in the modern world. They are so flawed and also completely

contradictory. I don’t understand how anyone would believe them.

Individuals choose not to follow religion but we're a long way from being secular.

Just because it exists doesn’t mean that it should. Which is what I meant about it not having a place today.

Religion has a good side too.

My parents belong to a church which does a lot of charity work. They also visit my mum regularly now she's housebound and make sure my dad has transport to church. There's a community that goes along with religion.

I think if religion was banned we'd invent a set of daft rules to take its place

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By *he rover returnedWoman over a year ago

xxx

Following this thread with interest. Im m a lapsed catholic, completely fallen if truth be told. I'm irish and living in a country where the change is happening faster then anyone could believe. Its the churches own fault. In my lifetime ive seen abuse scandal after abuse scandal. Babies stolen and sold to desperate families in england or America. Laundries that were concentration camps...they even took your name. Babies buried in septic tanks. Goldenbridge .. ferns .. i could go on. Im angry with the church for allowing this to happen to innocents.. im angry they've never said sorry. Im angry they tarnished me a slut because i voted to repeal... i must confess if i want to attend mass again. Im angry as a woman my sisters that came before me were so horribly violated. Im ashamed our country allowed it. Men did this to us all ...men not god. I pray myself my own way. Ill never attend mass again.

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By *andybeachWoman over a year ago

In the middle

"Following this thread with interest. Im m a lapsed catholic, completely fallen if truth be told. I'm irish and living in a country where the change is happening faster then anyone could believe. Its the churches own fault. In my lifetime ive seen abuse scandal after abuse scandal. Babies stolen and sold to desperate families in england or America. Laundries that were concentration camps...they even took your name. Babies buried in septic tanks. Goldenbridge .. ferns .. i could go on. Im angry with the church for allowing this to happen to innocents.. im angry they've never said sorry. Im angry they tarnished me a slut because i voted to repeal... i must confess if i want to attend mass again. Im angry as a woman my sisters that came before me were so horribly violated. Im ashamed our country allowed it. Men did this to us all ...men not god. I pray myself my own way. Ill never attend mass again. "

People will always abuse their power over others, even the people that are supposed to be saving your souls.

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By *inkyLondonpairCouple over a year ago

London

People will always abuse their power over others, even the people that are supposed to be saving your souls. "

But the point is if you set yourself up as an organisation with a direct line to God people are going to be far more pissed off when you fall from grace than with people who make no such claim.

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By *he rover returnedWoman over a year ago

xxx

People will always abuse their power over others, even the people that are supposed to be saving your souls. "

Humans are weak and what happened in ireland proves it. A collar doesn't change that

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By (user no longer on site) over a year ago

I'm with Jordan Peterson on this. I think there is a wonderful aspect to the faiths which we're losing as a society as their influence wains.

When the faiths were popular people would gather once a week for about an hour to contemplate, no matter how badly, living ethically and higher causes and purposes. You've got to admit that's better than never contemplating such things at all.

Similarly, I like to say thanks before I eat. It only seems respectful and it gets me to think for a moment about all the lives, animal or human, that have gone into my meal. Secular people would gripe that they could do such a thing too. But the point is that they generally don't. It's a shame that we're losing such things.

Also, people like Kinky make a big deal of prayer not doing anything. I disagree. I think there's something very beautiful and comforting in a very real medicinal sense about sharing your deepest feelings with the universe and spending a moment reflecting on others suffering. Again a secular person would complain that they could do the same. But I'm sure they often don't make that moment regularly unlike religious people do. In this sense a wider point could be made that religion is all about thinking of others (well it should be imo). Whilst modern secular life without it often fails to think of others altogether.

And we shouldn't forget that whilst prayer may not procure tangible results, meditation and other activities like yoga genuinely can procure religious experiences in a repeatable and testable way for yourself that are clearly shared by a vast amount of others who have done the same activities. Through these activities it is eminently possible for pretty much anyone, even a non believer, to verify for themselves the oneness and interconnectedness of everything and the existence of a god.

The faiths have many problems. But, though I don't subscribe to any faith myself, I don't believe in throwing the baby out with the bathwater.

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By *andybeachWoman over a year ago

In the middle

People will always abuse their power over others, even the people that are supposed to be saving your souls.

Humans are weak and what happened in ireland proves it. A collar doesn't change that "

No, it just makes the hypocrisy a hundred times worse.

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By *ettyboop61Woman over a year ago

St Neots

Well done OP you always put up a good debate.....I was forced to go to church and sent my children too having said that I don't go now and my eldest child isn't having her new born christened she says she's not religious and that it would be hilocritical but that don't stop us all being good people ......don't have to run to church to be kind and loving

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By (user no longer on site) over a year ago

"I don’t mean to be offensive, but any organised religion doesn’t have a place in the modern world. They are so flawed and also completely

contradictory. I don’t understand how anyone would believe them.

Individuals choose not to follow religion but we're a long way from being secular.

Just because it exists doesn’t mean that it should. Which is what I meant about it not having a place today.

Religion has a good side too.

I think if religion was banned we'd invent a set of daft rules to take its place"

Do you think that those people who do good works in the name of god would still do those good works without him?

If so, what is the need for god in all of that?

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By (user no longer on site) over a year ago

I was schooled with a very comprehensive religious study.

At the very least I could probably attend and follow the routine if I had to.

But what am more akin to is spiritual, wa

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By (user no longer on site) over a year ago

Ways old. Probably pagan.

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By *hatYorkLadMan over a year ago

York

I was sent to a Church of England primary school, prayers three times a day, hymns every morning, vicar used to come in and read bible stories to us once a week, I fully believed in it all as I knew no better and these were adults telling me all this stuff was real so had no reason to doubt it. Then I hit my teens and secondary school, it wasn't seen as cool to be religious so that was when I first started to turn away from it, then as time went on and I started to understand science and the way of the world I completely dropped religion and don't believe in any of it. It's just brainwashing and control.

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By *he rover returnedWoman over a year ago

xxx

People will always abuse their power over others, even the people that are supposed to be saving your souls.

Humans are weak and what happened in ireland proves it. A collar doesn't change that

No, it just makes the hypocrisy a hundred times worse. "

Yes it does and so does the continued denial. Men of god thst wont say sorry

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By *inkyLondonpairCouple over a year ago

London

"I'm with Jordan Peterson on this. I think there is a wonderful aspect to the faiths which we're losing as a society as their influence wains.

The faiths have many problems. But, though I don't subscribe to any faith myself, I don't believe in throwing the baby out with the bathwater. "

Prayer has no effect if you believe it's a supplication to a God who will cause things to work in your favour because of your prayer. I believe you agree with that.

I don't disagree that some form of meditation or contemplation can have psychological benefits for some people.

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By (user no longer on site) over a year ago

[Removed by poster at 05/08/18 12:32:44]

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By *icecouple561Couple over a year ago
Forum Mod

East Sussex

"I don’t mean to be offensive, but any organised religion doesn’t have a place in the modern world. They are so flawed and also completely

contradictory. I don’t understand how anyone would believe them.

Individuals choose not to follow religion but we're a long way from being secular.

Just because it exists doesn’t mean that it should. Which is what I meant about it not having a place today.

Religion has a good side too.

I think if religion was banned we'd invent a set of daft rules to take its place

Do you think that those people who do good works in the name of god would still do those good works without him?

If so, what is the need for god in all of that?"

I'm not arguing for or against God or religion. I have my own spirituality in which I'm secure. If other people choose a different one it's up to them. People will do good things and bad things and almost always attribute those things to outside influences.

If we didn't have religion something else would take its place.

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By (user no longer on site) over a year ago

Interesting thread to start on a swinger forum. You better religion is not real. Or we are all off to hell

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By *inkyLondonpairCouple over a year ago

London

"I don’t mean to be offensive, but any organised religion doesn’t have a place in the modern world. They are so flawed and also completely

contradictory. I don’t understand how anyone would believe them.

Individuals choose not to follow religion but we're a long way from being secular.

Just because it exists doesn’t mean that it should. Which is what I meant about it not having a place today.

Religion has a good side too.

I think if religion was banned we'd invent a set of daft rules to take its place

Do you think that those people who do good works in the name of god would still do those good works without him?

If so, what is the need for god in all of that?

Similarly, is it even possible that gods chosen people would have made it through their forty year trek through the desert if they had been under the impression that murder,adultery,lying and stealing were all perfectly ok?.

They didn't need Moses to bring them the rules carved in tablets of stone to understand human solidarity and we don't need to be told to take care of each other. "

There's obviously a social benefit in telling ignorant people that if they don't behave in a socially useful way they will offend a supernatural being who will punish them.

The difficulty is when people cease to be ignorant, they can pick holes in that theory and you then have to find some other way to social cohesion.

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By *verageguy123Man over a year ago

Selby

It’s not taught in schools anymore to avoid offending other religions. Sad but true

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By *inkyLondonpairCouple over a year ago

London

"It’s not taught in schools anymore to avoid offending other religions. Sad but true"

Not sad and not true. Kids are now taught about all religions and very many state schools are run by Christian churches.

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By *he rover returnedWoman over a year ago

xxx

"It’s not taught in schools anymore to avoid offending other religions. Sad but true"

Its still compulsory im most primary and catholic run secondary schools. The push now is a separation of church and state. I hope it happens.

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By *innie The MinxWoman over a year ago

Under the Duvet

"It’s not taught in schools anymore to avoid offending other religions. Sad but true"

Untrue.

At my kids school they have been taught about all religions.

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By (user no longer on site) over a year ago

"I'm with Jordan Peterson on this. I think there is a wonderful aspect to the faiths which we're losing as a society as their influence wains.

The faiths have many problems. But, though I don't subscribe to any faith myself, I don't believe in throwing the baby out with the bathwater.

Prayer has no effect if you believe it's a supplication to a God who will cause things to work in your favour because of your prayer. I believe you agree with that.

I don't disagree that some form of meditation or contemplation can have psychological benefits for some people. "

I think your view on prayer is that it's the same as talking into a dead phone. There's no one there, no one listening, no reply, just you getting stuff off your chest... and that this alone may have a therapeutic effect.

That's not my experience of it. I definitely feel there's a compassionate listening ear and quite often get replies. So for me it's much more akin to a two way conversation than a soliloquy.

I know you'll insist there's no tangible difference between the two; that both get the same results of no intervention. But there is a critical difference... the presence of a listener and their very insightful replies which help offer an often very noble and graceful guidance. You don't get that from a dead phone

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By *lem-H-FandangoMan over a year ago

salisbury

"Have the west lost its touch with christianity? I remember as a kid we used to pray at dinner and then before you went to bed, whats your view, have you also noticed a change?"

Belief in the great sky pixie and all his little helpers is reducing in free thinking, educated countries. Thank God!

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By *inkyLondonpairCouple over a year ago

London

"I'm with Jordan Peterson on this. I think there is a wonderful aspect to the faiths which we're losing as a society as their influence wains.

The faiths have many problems. But, though I don't subscribe to any faith myself, I don't believe in throwing the baby out with the bathwater.

Prayer has no effect if you believe it's a supplication to a God who will cause things to work in your favour because of your prayer. I believe you agree with that.

I don't disagree that some form of meditation or contemplation can have psychological benefits for some people.

That's not my experience of it. I definitely feel there's a compassionate listening ear and quite often get replies. So for me it's much more akin to a two way conversation than a soliloquy.

You think there's someone replying to you, but the only evidence there is is your subjective feeling . Obviously that's not evidence for anything except the existence of your subjective feeling.

Logically, it's the same as me saying that an invisible pink elephant listens to my prayers. My feeling thus is no evidence that such a being does listen.

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By (user no longer on site) over a year ago

"I'm with Jordan Peterson on this. I think there is a wonderful aspect to the faiths which we're losing as a society as their influence wains.

The faiths have many problems. But, though I don't subscribe to any faith myself, I don't believe in throwing the baby out with the bathwater.

Prayer has no effect if you believe it's a supplication to a God who will cause things to work in your favour because of your prayer. I believe you agree with that.

I don't disagree that some form of meditation or contemplation can have psychological benefits for some people.

That's not my experience of it. I definitely feel there's a compassionate listening ear and quite often get replies. So for me it's much more akin to a two way conversation than a soliloquy.

You think there's someone replying to you, but the only evidence there is is your subjective feeling . Obviously that's not evidence for anything except the existence of your subjective feeling.

Logically, it's the same as me saying that an invisible pink elephant listens to my prayers. My feeling thus is no evidence that such a being does listen. "

You atheists

Always reaching into your toolbox for your cookie cutter arguments even when they don't apply. Where in what I wrote was any effort made to try and argue that because I get replies you should believe in god? Of course it's not a frigging argument for a god. But, whether it is or it isn't, I still get replies. So your view of it doesn't fit with my experience of it that's all. Just explaining how we differ. Not trying to convert you lol

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By *inkyLondonpairCouple over a year ago

London

"I'm with Jordan Peterson on this. I think there is a wonderful aspect to the faiths which we're losing as a society as their influence wains.

The faiths have many problems. But, though I don't subscribe to any faith myself, I don't believe in throwing the baby out with the bathwater.

Prayer has no effect if you believe it's a supplication to a God who will cause things to work in your favour because of your prayer. I believe you agree with that.

I don't disagree that some form of meditation or contemplation can have psychological benefits for some people.

That's not my experience of it. I definitely feel there's a compassionate listening ear and quite often get replies. So for me it's much more akin to a two way conversation than a soliloquy.

You think there's someone replying to you, but the only evidence there is is your subjective feeling . Obviously that's not evidence for anything except the existence of your subjective feeling.

Logically, it's the same as me saying that an invisible pink elephant listens to my prayers. My feeling thus is no evidence that such a being does listen.

You atheists

I never mentioned God. I addressed your argument that there was something external responding to your prayers.

My point is that you contemplating something and getting what you perceive to be replies from some external being that gives you guidance, is actually no different from me contemplating something getting ideas that I perceive as coming from my own brain and being guided by said ideas.

I find it difficult to understand the positing of some external being for which you have no evidence other than the feeling in your head.

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By *verageguy123Man over a year ago

Selby

"It’s not taught in schools anymore to avoid offending other religions. Sad but true

Untrue.

At my kids school they have been taught about all religions."
unfortunately it’s true at my daughter’s school, she went to the same primary school that I did where grace was said every lunchtime and a prayer ended every assembly, she didn’t know what I was talking about when I asked her about it. She’s now at the same high school that I went to and is taught every religion apart from Christianity

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By (user no longer on site) over a year ago

Jesus Christ! These type of post makes me cross but I think you've nailed it

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By *inkyLondonpairCouple over a year ago

London

"It’s not taught in schools anymore to avoid offending other religions. Sad but true

Untrue.

At my kids school they have been taught about all religions. unfortunately it’s true at my daughter’s school, she went to the same primary school that I did where grace was said every lunchtime and a prayer ended every assembly, she didn’t know what I was talking about when I asked her about it. She’s now at the same high school that I went to and is taught every religion apart from Christianity "

Your daughters school is breaking the law then. You should complain.

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By *est Wales WifeCouple over a year ago

Near Carmarthen

1) Either (a) life was created by an intelligent entity or (b) it was not.

2) Either (a) the god of the Hebrews is real or (b) the god of the Hebrews was invented like thousands of other gods.

Firstly, you should notice that these two statements are wholly independent. For example, if (1a) is true, it does not mean (2a) is true. (1a) could be true and (2b) could be true. So, if you want to believe both (1a) AND (2a) are true, you need separate evidence to support each proposition.

Secondly, you cannot say (1a) is true only because you can't conceive of a natural process by which life could arise in the absence of an intelligent entity.

For example, you may not be able to conceive of a way in which a 350-tonne machine could travel at 36,000 ft for 4,000 miles at 560 mph carrying 400 humans but that does not mean it is impossible.

Your inability to conceive how something happens only tells us about your limitations--it tells us nothing about the limitations of nature.

I suggest the facts are these: believers cannot show that (1a) is true and nor can they show that (2a) is true, yet Christians believe them both with absolute certainty. I cannot show that (1a) and (2a) are true so I do not believe either of them.

My position is 100% rational; the believers is 100% non-rational.

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By *arlomaleMan over a year ago

darlington

"People scoffing at Christianity on here what are yous doing on the 25 of December ????? Exactly case closed columbo

That’s only because commercialism has taken over Christmas, children don’t know what it represents, it’s just a time to get the lates Xbox game

"
i wasn’t on about commercialism I was taking aim at the comments on here saying it’s a load of nonsense but the same hypocrites will have a tree up on the 25th to Celebrate something they don’t believe in i did re at school and also as a member of the B.B. when o was a kid was taught about it and I can take it or leave it and I would not have a go at some one who does believe in it perhaps it’s something they find comfort in

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By (user no longer on site) over a year ago

"People scoffing at Christianity on here what are yous doing on the 25 of December ????? Exactly case closed columbo

Which is actually the date of a pagan festival adopted by the church. Scholars seem to put the actual birth of Jesus sometime in our Spring.

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By (user no longer on site) over a year ago

"People scoffing at Christianity on here what are yous doing on the 25 of December ????? Exactly case closed columbo

That’s only because commercialism has taken over Christmas, children don’t know what it represents, it’s just a time to get the lates Xbox game

i wasn’t on about commercialism I was taking aim at the comments on here saying it’s a load of nonsense but the same hypocrites will have a tree up on the 25th to Celebrate something they don’t believe in i did re at school and also as a member of the B.B. when o was a kid was taught about it and I can take it or leave it and I would not have a go at some one who does believe in it perhaps it’s something they find comfort in

There are atheists on this forum who don't do anything on that day. Don't make assumptions

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By (user no longer on site) over a year ago

I don't care either way.

I'm an atheist.

I won't push my beliefs on anyone and I don't want anyone's beliefs pushed on me.

Live and live.

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By (user no longer on site) over a year ago

"I'm with Jordan Peterson on this. I think there is a wonderful aspect to the faiths which we're losing as a society as their influence wains.

The faiths have many problems. But, though I don't subscribe to any faith myself, I don't believe in throwing the baby out with the bathwater.

Prayer has no effect if you believe it's a supplication to a God who will cause things to work in your favour because of your prayer. I believe you agree with that.

I don't disagree that some form of meditation or contemplation can have psychological benefits for some people.

That's not my experience of it. I definitely feel there's a compassionate listening ear and quite often get replies. So for me it's much more akin to a two way conversation than a soliloquy.

You think there's someone replying to you, but the only evidence there is is your subjective feeling . Obviously that's not evidence for anything except the existence of your subjective feeling.

Logically, it's the same as me saying that an invisible pink elephant listens to my prayers. My feeling thus is no evidence that such a being does listen.

You atheists

I never mentioned God. I addressed your argument that there was something external responding to your prayers.

I find it difficult to understand the positing of some external being for which you have no evidence other than the feeling in your head. "

The experience is that there's a being listening and a very separate mind from our own answering. I'm quite happy for scientists to explore why this weird experience of an external being occurs... is it some kind of weird illusion of magnetism? is it a bizarre psychological state in which we imagine ourselves to be someone separate from us? But if you're going to argue that I don't experience what appears to be a separate being from me that returns to me genuinely insightful replies that wouldn't have occurred to me... then you're simply not describing the same experience that's all.

You're describing some kind of scenario where you sit alone talking into the air and having your own ideas based on just sitting there. That's contemplation. That's not prayer or anything where there's a conversation. People who imagine a god talks to them when all they've been doing is sitting contemplating are being silly. The experience is much more unique and sensory than that. There is the distinct sense of another being, a distinctly separate voice from the one your thoughts usually take, different intonation, different language, and different wisdom. All of that is core to the experience. If you want to question the experience that's the experience you have to question... not mere contemplation

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By (user no longer on site) over a year ago

"Nope. There's still plenty of Christians in the world. Just because you and I don't pray any more, doesn't mean it's lost.

The question was is it declining in the West. If he means Western Europe, it clearly is. All surveys show that.

They are still Catholics though aren't they?

There are far more who are not than there used to be. Hence the decline.

If I say I am a staunch Conservative but always vote Labour, I think you would be questioning my adherence to conservatism. "

Do religious people have to follow their leaders blindly and never question them?

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By *est Wales WifeCouple over a year ago

Near Carmarthen

" I was taking aim at the comments on here saying it’s a load of nonsense but the same hypocrites will have a tree up on the 25th to Celebrate something they don’t believe )"

No more hypocritcal than Christians who assigned 25th December to be the date of Christ’s birth (it's not mentioned in the bible) about 300 years after the time of Jesus basically to encourage followers of a variety of pagan gods (such as Mithra) that celebrated that day to convert to Christianity.

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By *esus H ChristMan over a year ago

birmingham

Bless you all...regardless !

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By *arlomaleMan over a year ago

darlington

" I was taking aim at the comments on here saying it’s a load of nonsense but the same hypocrites will have a tree up on the 25th to Celebrate something they don’t believe )

"
answer me one question do you put up a tree ??

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By (user no longer on site) over a year ago

I don't believe in any of it personally, never have and never will

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By *ighero69Man over a year ago

Liverpool

Christianity is just a way to control our chain of thought and morality just as is all religion. Opium for the masses. Human nature is naturally good we don’t need religion.

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By *est Wales WifeCouple over a year ago

Near Carmarthen

" I was taking aim at the comments on here saying it’s a load of nonsense but the same hypocrites will have a tree up on the 25th to Celebrate something they don’t believe )

answer me one question do you put up a tree ??"

No tree or decorations of any sort here

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By *arlomaleMan over a year ago

darlington

"People scoffing at Christianity on here what are yous doing on the 25 of December ????? Exactly case closed columbo

That’s only because commercialism has taken over Christmas, children don’t know what it represents, it’s just a time to get the lates Xbox game

There are atheists on this forum who don't do anything on that day. Don't make assumptions"
im not on about them I’m taking aim at the ones who don’t believe in it but still celebrate it

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By (user no longer on site) over a year ago

Christmas for me is just a commercial holiday.

It bears no religious significance for me. Is it hypocritical? Probably.

I simply see it as a time to be with friends and family and more as a magical time for children.

However, Christmas was a tradition stolen by the Christian faith anyway.

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By *arlomaleMan over a year ago

darlington

" I was taking aim at the comments on here saying it’s a load of nonsense but the same hypocrites will have a tree up on the 25th to Celebrate something they don’t believe )

answer me one question do you put up a tree ??

No tree or decorations of any sort here"
bet it was fun for kids growing up

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By *VineMan over a year ago

The right place

"1) Either (a) life was created by an intelligent entity or (b) it was not.

2) Either (a) the god of the Hebrews is real or (b) the god of the Hebrews was invented like thousands of other gods.

Secondly, you cannot say (1a) is true only because you can't conceive of a natural process by which life could arise in the absence of an intelligent entity.

For example, you may not be able to conceive of a way in which a 350-tonne machine could travel at 36,000 ft for 4,000 miles at 560 mph carrying 400 humans but that does not mean it is impossible.

Your inability to conceive how something happens only tells us about your limitations--it tells us nothing about the limitations of nature.

My position is 100% rational; the believers is 100% non-rational. "

The opposite of faith isn’t doubt. The opposite of faith is certainly. Once you know something to be true you don’t need faith. Most religions (apart from their extreme fundamentalist wings) hold a balance of knowing and not knowing, seeing and not seeing. There is a humility in this approach that I find appealing.

As someone with a scientific background that is also the scientific approach. We create models of the universe, we test them and even some of our best ones we know don’t work all of the time. The classical model of physics and general relativity work really well for most of the universe above the atomic level. But they completely break down at the sub atomic level. Does that mean we should throw them out? No!

There is good science and bad science, there is good religion and bad religion (of all faiths).

We don’t know everything, but we do know some things. The rest is up for debate and discovery.

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By *r Kipling tart fillerMan over a year ago

Tart filling facility

One thing religion brings is a community, that's something lacking in the UK since Christianity was belittled. Morals and respect have lowered too.

Places in the world where communities meet for church sure tend to be more friendly, neighbourly places.

I guess pagan orgies would have the same effect.

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By (user no longer on site) over a year ago

"People scoffing at Christianity on here what are yous doing on the 25 of December ????? Exactly case closed columbo

That’s only because commercialism has taken over Christmas, children don’t know what it represents, it’s just a time to get the lates Xbox game

There are atheists on this forum who don't do anything on that day. Don't make assumptionsim not on about them I’m taking aim at the ones who don’t believe in it but still celebrate it "

You are assuming people celebrate it without knowing whether they do or don't

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By *ixaWoman over a year ago

kettering

"People scoffing at Christianity on here what are yous doing on the 25 of December ????? Exactly case closed columbo

Drinking alcohol, spending time with family and friends, it’s a day off work, nothing to do with Christianity, if they gave all of us four days off for a Hindu festival, I would do the same, it wouldn’t make me Hindu, it would mean I like enjoying time with the people I love!

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By (user no longer on site) over a year ago

I went to a Methodist school for 7 years.. chapel every single day... and I think now if I went back into that church I'd probably burst into flames ahaha. I enjoy life more now..

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By (user no longer on site) over a year ago

" I was taking aim at the comments on here saying it’s a load of nonsense but the same hypocrites will have a tree up on the 25th to Celebrate something they don’t believe )

answer me one question do you put up a tree ??

No tree or decorations of any sort herebet it was fun for kids growing up

So the fun in a child's life can be measured by what happens 1 day a year?

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By *ighero69Man over a year ago

Liverpool

Oh and can I just say how proud of people I am for not bashing other religions beliefs on this thread but please respect anyone who believes in Christianity. As for December 25 that is a cultural day now not a religious one. I know plenty of Muslim, Hinduand Buddhist people who celebrate Christmas as well as atheists and agnostics

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By (user no longer on site) over a year ago

All in your mind

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By (user no longer on site) over a year ago

"People scoffing at Christianity on here what are yous doing on the 25 of December ????? Exactly case closed columbo

That’s only because commercialism has taken over Christmas, children don’t know what it represents, it’s just a time to get the lates Xbox game

There are atheists on this forum who don't do anything on that day. Don't make assumptions"

Also,atheists who have no desire or intention to take away anyone's beliefs.

Let people play with whatever toys they wish to,I say but don't try to insist that I should play with those toys too.

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By *ara JTV/TS over a year ago

Bristol East

That’s only because commercialism has taken over Christmas, children don’t know what it represents, it’s just a time to get the lates Xbox game

The tradition of cutting down a tree and bringing it indoors at the darkest time of the year comes from the Vikings and the Saxons, and has nothing whatsoever to do with christianity.

All these religious festivals essentially are built on traditions of earlier cultures.

It is the same with Easter, the Egyptian goddess of sex and fertility. I'm all for celebrating with eggs, though perhaps not bunny rabbits.

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By *est Wales WifeCouple over a year ago

Near Carmarthen

"I was taking aim at the comments on here saying it’s a load of nonsense but the same hypocrites will have a tree up on the 25th to Celebrate something they don’t believe in "

Presumably, according to your logic, Catholics are hypocritical for celebrating bonfire night then?

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By *arlomaleMan over a year ago

darlington

"I was taking aim at the comments on here saying it’s a load of nonsense but the same hypocrites will have a tree up on the 25th to Celebrate something they don’t believe in

Presumably, according to your logic, Catholics are hypocritical for celebrating bonfire night then?"
im not catholic and I used to to celebrate bonfire night and when kids where growing up I’d buy fireworks I also took them Out on Halloween night logic has fuck all to do with it blame my parents because that’s how I was brought up and how they were brought up as was 99%of the kids I grew up with so shove your logic you miserable fuckers

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By (user no longer on site) over a year ago

"I was taking aim at the comments on here saying it’s a load of nonsense but the same hypocrites will have a tree up on the 25th to Celebrate something they don’t believe in

Presumably, according to your logic, Catholics are hypocritical for celebrating bonfire night then?im not catholic and I used to to celebrate bonfire night and when kids where growing up I’d buy fireworks I also took them Out on Halloween night logic has fuck all to do with it blame my parents because that’s how I was brought up and how they were brought up as was 99%of the kids I grew up with so shove your logic you miserable fuckers

Bit harsh?

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By *ystical_InkedBBWWoman over a year ago

somewhere in the Shire of Derby

"It’s not taught in schools anymore to avoid offending other religions. Sad but true"

It's compulsory but parents can withdraw their children from all or part of the lessons. My son has chosen it for a GCSE option.

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By (user no longer on site) over a year ago

"The opposite of faith isn’t doubt. The opposite of faith is certainly. Once you know something to be true you don’t need faith. Most religions (apart from their extreme fundamentalist wings) hold a balance of knowing and not knowing, seeing and not seeing. There is a humility in this approach that I find appealing.

There is good science and bad science, there is good religion and bad religion (of all faiths).

We don’t know everything, but we do know some things. The rest is up for debate and discovery. "

I like your view on this Vine

I think humility is really important on both sides. The difficulty comes when you have an experience you can't deny. Like experiencing tiramisu. It's difficult to entertain tiramisu doesn't exist when you've just gobbled up a whole bowl of it

But I do think it's important for even people who are certain to come to the debate with humility and at least entertain the possibility that tiramisu doesn't exist. Or else there can be no discussion. That's where I see myself

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By (user no longer on site) over a year ago

"Secondly, you cannot say (1a) is true only because you can't conceive of a natural process by which life could arise in the absence of an intelligent entity.

For example, you may not be able to conceive of a way in which a 350-tonne machine could travel at 36,000 ft for 4,000 miles at 560 mph carrying 400 humans but that does not mean it is impossible.

Your inability to conceive how something happens only tells us about your limitations--it tells us nothing about the limitations of nature."

Why the implicit bias though? Since we don't know if a god exists or not you can't assume "natural processes" occur "absent of an intelligent entity". That's the actual argument itself. That's what you're looking to convince us. You can't assume your conclusion as a premise. You must show how you got there.

You can't frame an argument against a god under the assumption that one doesn't exist. That's just as corrupt as basing an argument for god on the assumption that one does exist. We work from a neutral state of not knowing to a conclusion in either direction.

Given that, nature cannot be a witness either to a god nor against one. It was either created by one, in which case it needs one and so can't be cited as a witness to its non existence. Or it wasn't, in which case the opposite is true.

How will we ever tell if nature is the product of "an intelligent entity"? By the close study of the workings of nature revealing to us either a profound intelligence at work or a simple chaos unfolding in the most ridiculously lucky way

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By (user no longer on site) over a year ago

Even Richard Dawkins says that his only defensible position is 'agnostic' as he currently does'nt have hard scientific evidence either way. However, his gut position is atheist.

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By (user no longer on site) OP over a year ago

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By *rightonsteveMan over a year ago

Brighton - even Hove!

I’m not a Christian. I’ve never thought 2000 years of monotheism in the West should outweigh the previous 5000 years of belief in polytheism. I don’t approve of organised religion and even less so one that is run by men.

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By (user no longer on site) over a year ago

Christians should thank themselves VERY lucky if their only problem is their 2000 year dominion over half the globe is over.

Imagine if Christians faced actual persecution like Jews and Muslims.

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By *rightonsteveMan over a year ago

Brighton - even Hove!

"Christians should thank themselves VERY lucky if their only problem is their 2000 year dominion over half the globe is over.

Imagine if Christians faced actual persecution like Jews and Muslims. "

They did. And do.

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By *elly39devonCouple over a year ago

tavistock

as the previous writer said, Christians face persecution in many countries. I go to church regularly but also I go to cap d'agde on hols which is not exactly religious.

There is a lot wrong with christianity but as a force for good should be recognised

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By *inkyLondonpairCouple over a year ago

London

"I'm with Jordan Peterson on this. I think there is a wonderful aspect to the faiths which we're losing as a society as their influence wains.

The faiths have many problems. But, though I don't subscribe to any faith myself, I don't believe in throwing the baby out with the bathwater.

Prayer has no effect if you believe it's a supplication to a God who will cause things to work in your favour because of your prayer. I believe you agree with that.

I don't disagree that some form of meditation or contemplation can have psychological benefits for some people.

That's not my experience of it. I definitely feel there's a compassionate listening ear and quite often get replies. So for me it's much more akin to a two way conversation than a soliloquy.

You think there's someone replying to you, but the only evidence there is is your subjective feeling . Obviously that's not evidence for anything except the existence of your subjective feeling.

Logically, it's the same as me saying that an invisible pink elephant listens to my prayers. My feeling thus is no evidence that such a being does listen.

You atheists

I never mentioned God. I addressed your argument that there was something external responding to your prayers.

I find it difficult to understand the positing of some external being for which you have no evidence other than the feeling in your head.

I don't question that you have the experience. I just say that hearing voices in your head is no evidence that they exist otherwise than in your head.

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By (user no longer on site) over a year ago

"I don't question that you have the experience. I just say that hearing voices in your head is no evidence that they exist otherwise than in your head. "

We both know it isn't evidence to you, at least not evidence you'd accept. But if it's the nature of the experience that the voice isn't coming from the usual location in my head, that it appears not to be coming from myself at all, and if there's no convincing rational argument as to why that impression is mistaken, then it certainly can operate as evidence to me.

If you want to convince me otherwise you'll need to convince me I'm mistaken in taking this as evidence. Thats not as simple as just telling me it isn't admissible as evidence *to you*.

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By *inkyLondonpairCouple over a year ago

London

"I don't question that you have the experience. I just say that hearing voices in your head is no evidence that they exist otherwise than in your head.

If you want to convince me otherwise you'll need to convince me I'm mistaken in taking this as evidence. Thats not as simple as just telling me it isn't admissible as evidence *to you*."

I am currently sat on a park bench. I can see another Park bench opposite me. At least I think I can. It's possible the image of the park bench is just an idea in my head. However, if I stop every person who goes past if there is a park bench there, I am pretty certain they will all say there is. I can then rest pretty certain that there is overwhelming evidence that the park bench is not an image in my head and exists external to me.

On the other hand, the voices you describe are not accessible to any other person and the only evidence they exist is your description of them. The evidence therefore suggests they exist only in your head.

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By (user no longer on site) over a year ago

"as the previous writer said, Christians face persecution in many countries. I go to church regularly but also I go to cap d'agde on hols which is not exactly religious.

There is a lot wrong with christianity but as a force for good should be recognised"

Genuine question, and potentially an admission of my own ignorance on the matter but what are they doing that is unique to or driven by christianity that makes them a force for good

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By *rightonsteveMan over a year ago

Brighton - even Hove!

.......”On the other hand, the voices you describe are not accessible to any other person and the only evidence they exist is your description of them. The evidence therefore suggests they exist only in your head......”

So things that haven’t been seen by more than one person and only described only exist in people’s heads?

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By *lem-H-FandangoMan over a year ago

salisbury

".......”On the other hand, the voices you describe are not accessible to any other person and the only evidence they exist is your description of them. The evidence therefore suggests they exist only in your head......”

So things that haven’t been seen by more than one person and only described only exist in people’s heads? "

Probably. Could you give us a "for instance"?

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By *lem-H-FandangoMan over a year ago

salisbury

"as the previous writer said, Christians face persecution in many countries. I go to church regularly but also I go to cap d'agde on hols which is not exactly religious.

There is a lot wrong with christianity but as a force for good should be recognised

Genuine question, and potentially an admission of my own ignorance on the matter but what are they doing that is unique to or driven by christianity that makes them a force for good"

Is the salvation army an example of this?

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By *inkyLondonpairCouple over a year ago

London

So things that haven’t been seen by more than one person and only described only exist in people’s heads? "

By definition, if something is only, in principle, accessible as an idea in one persons head, then it only exists in that persons head.

The operative words are "in principle". One person may be the only person to have seen a new born baby but in principle anyone else can see it and confirm it's external existence.

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By (user no longer on site) over a year ago

So things that haven’t been seen by more than one person and only described only exist in people’s heads?

By definition, if something is only, in principle, accessible as an idea in one persons head, then it only exists in that persons head.

The operative words are "in principle". One person may be the only person to have seen a new born baby but in principle anyone else can see it and confirm it's external existence. "

It's not an identifiable characteristic of the god experience that only one person has ever had it. It is a widely experienced phenomenon and people all over the world attest to the basic nature of the experience i.e that an external being with profound insight can communicate directly with their mind. As such, it is similar to the state of being in love. People who've never experienced it can doubt such a state exists. But it's clear it does. The task then is to ask if the god experience state relates to anything external or not. Suggesting that because no two people have the same message and so it isn't real is like suggesting because no two people get the same message over a phone network the phone network doesn't exist.

Instead, the holy grail of atheists is surely to be able to replicate the experience at will using chemicals and thereby try to explain it as brain feedback or something. Denying the experience occurs or that it isn't a commonly shared experience, just as the experience of love is, is a non starter.

So no... the god experience is not "in principle" limited solely to one person's mind. It is entirely possible that several people may attest to exactly the same experience. That's where such commonly held beliefs as everything being interconnected comes from.

None of the above is an argument for a god. It's merely a description of the riddle atheists need to properly address. It's clear we're in the realm of talking plug sockets. So don't worry. I know exactly how mad I sound. But there's something so deeply positive about this experience compared to that of talking plug sockets that, until I meet a truly convincing argument as to why I and those like me should dismiss it, I'll keep returning to it

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By (user no longer on site) over a year ago

Another absolutely bonkers thread that I'm certain is doing my potential love life no good whatsoever haha

I only pray no sexy women are reading this. I have total faith god will intervene and make my prayer come true

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By (user no longer on site) over a year ago

So things that haven’t been seen by more than one person and only described only exist in people’s heads?

By definition, if something is only, in principle, accessible as an idea in one persons head, then it only exists in that persons head.

The operative words are "in principle". One person may be the only person to have seen a new born baby but in principle anyone else can see it and confirm it's external existence. "

If half the people on a bus have headphones on and listening to spotify and the other half don't. Indeed, there's absolutely no external evidence to those people that spotify even exists... Does spotify exist?

The answer clearly depends on whether someone on the bus can take another person's headphones out, plug them into their ears, and then also listen to spotify. If, instead, all they hear is static then there's a powerful argument that, since the experience isn't replicable, it's some kind of mass hallucination.

So the issue here is is the god experience replicable

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By *ust RachelTV/TS over a year ago

Horsham

I went to Catholic schools, infants, junior and senior schools. I even ended up with a GCSE in religious education.

I was taken to church every Sunday by my grandparents, but it turned me off religion quickly. As everyone at the church used to have the persona of what a good Christian I am, then the rest of the days stabbing everyone in the back.

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By (user no longer on site) over a year ago

Just off to watch Billy Connollys "Man who sued God."

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By (user no longer on site) over a year ago

"Christians should thank themselves VERY lucky if their only problem is their 2000 year dominion over half the globe is over.

Imagine if Christians faced actual persecution like Jews and Muslims.

They did. And do. "

HAHAHA

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By *inkyLondonpairCouple over a year ago

London

So things that haven’t been seen by more than one person and only described only exist in people’s heads?

By definition, if something is only, in principle, accessible as an idea in one persons head, then it only exists in that persons head.

The operative words are "in principle". One person may be the only person to have seen a new born baby but in principle anyone else can see it and confirm it's external existence.

You're still not getting the distinction between subjective and objective existence. Love exists only subjectively, as a feeling in people's minds. Love clearly exists in that sense, but doesn't exist outside peoples minds. As a abstract non material concept, it clearly can't exist in any other way. If there were no human minds there would be no love, hate, anger, jealousy etc etc.

If you want to say the concept of God exists in the same way, as an idea in human minds that can't exists outside of human minds, I'd agree with you.

The difficulty arises if you assert God exists objectively outside human minds and would exist even if there were no human minds to think about him. If you say that, I am going to want the same sort of empirical evidence as I would want for anything else said to exist objectively.

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By *inkyLondonpairCouple over a year ago

London

I have to agree, by the way, that saying God talks to you is a kamikaze move on here.

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By *bonynivoryCouple over a year ago

market harborough

"Have the west lost its touch with christianity? I remember as a kid we used to pray at dinner and then before you went to bed, whats your view, have you also noticed a change?"

I do hope so.

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By *ild_oatsMan over a year ago

the land of saints & sinners

Thank God for secularism....

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By *heDesiCandiTV/TS over a year ago

Leicester

"Have the west lost its touch with christianity? I remember as a kid we used to pray at dinner and then before you went to bed, whats your view, have you also noticed a change?"

I am not religious - more spiritual and respectful of all beliefs. I am grateful for the food we have and I say a prayer before I go to bed and every time I am on a flight. I find it helps me relax and breathe clearly which helps me to sleep/be calm.

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By *lem-H-FandangoMan over a year ago

salisbury

"Christians should thank themselves VERY lucky if their only problem is their 2000 year dominion over half the globe is over.

Imagine if Christians faced actual persecution like Jews and Muslims.

They did. And do.

HAHAHA

https://www.express.co.uk/news/world/981611/christian-persecution-christianity-nigeria

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By (user no longer on site) over a year ago

"Christians should thank themselves VERY lucky if their only problem is their 2000 year dominion over half the globe is over.

Imagine if Christians faced actual persecution like Jews and Muslims.

They did. And do.

HAHAHA

https://www.express.co.uk/news/world/981611/christian-persecution-christianity-nigeria

Peanuts really.

Harsh as fuck but the figures and history are plain for all to see.

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By *lem-H-FandangoMan over a year ago

salisbury

"Christians should thank themselves VERY lucky if their only problem is their 2000 year dominion over half the globe is over.

Imagine if Christians faced actual persecution like Jews and Muslims.

They did. And do.

HAHAHA

https://www.express.co.uk/news/world/981611/christian-persecution-christianity-nigeria

Peanuts really.

Harsh as fuck but the figures and history are plain for all to see. "

Right o.

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By *ild_oatsMan over a year ago

the land of saints & sinners

Too many Christians.... not enough lions....

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By *innie The MinxWoman over a year ago

Under the Duvet

Elvis is king....just saying.

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By *lem-H-FandangoMan over a year ago

salisbury

6000 Nigerian Christians murdered this year so far. But they're black so it's not seen as a problem. Hang your head in shame.

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By *ild_oatsMan over a year ago

the land of saints & sinners

Religion is the root of all evil...

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By (user no longer on site) over a year ago

"Christians should thank themselves VERY lucky if their only problem is their 2000 year dominion over half the globe is over.

Imagine if Christians faced actual persecution like Jews and Muslims.

They did. And do.

HAHAHA

https://www.express.co.uk/news/world/981611/christian-persecution-christianity-nigeria

Peanuts really.

Harsh as fuck but the figures and history are plain for all to see.

Right o.

You want to go through 2000 years of history and tot up the numbers?

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By (user no longer on site) over a year ago

"6000 Nigerian Christians murdered this year so far. But they're black so it's not seen as a problem. Hang your head in shame. "

Fuck does this have to do with race now...?

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By (user no longer on site) over a year ago

"6000 Nigerian Christians murdered this year so far. But they're black so it's not seen as a problem. Hang your head in shame. "

Fuck does this have to do with race now...?

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By *ild_oatsMan over a year ago

the land of saints & sinners

Religion is jus a way of subjugation of the masses. Belief in 2000 year old text that is alleged word of a unproven higher being with no evidence that can ever substantiated for its existence.

Superstitious mumbo jumbo....

Might as well believe in Giant alien lizards ruling our world from inside the hollow earth..... makes as much sense....

There I have now probably managed to offend all the religious and conspiracy fantasists in one post....

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By *iSTARessWoman over a year ago

London

If anyone chooses to live their life according to a bunch of fairy tales, cool.

Just not for me. Already have my spot reserved in hell.

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By *emini ManMan over a year ago

There and to the left a bit

"If anyone chooses to live their life according to a bunch of fairy tales, cool.

Just not for me. Already have my spot reserved in hell. "

This

Was force fed enough religion as a kid to last me a lifetime and also make me realise as I got older that it was just a doctrine used to control the masses in my opinion - but do appreciate it's a great crutch for some and would never knock anyone that has belief.

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By *rFunBoyMan over a year ago

Longridge

"Have the west lost its touch with christianity? I remember as a kid we used to pray at dinner and then before you went to bed, whats your view, have you also noticed a change?"

I had a mate called Jesus. He sure was king in our gang.

Having said that when I went down on all fours at the golden Alter of pussy belonging to a sexy young lady last week I said my prayers.

'Thank-you God for what I'm about to receive'.

They were answered and my God what a blow job in return.

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By *rFunBoyMan over a year ago

Longridge

I am with the great Professor Hawking on this one..

To Quote: “God is the name people give to the reason we are here,” he said. “But I think that reason is the laws of physics rather than someone with whom one can have a personal relationship. An impersonal God.”

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By (user no longer on site) over a year ago

I went to Catholic schools from age 7 which was the first exposure I had apart from nativity plays at school. We simply didn't go to church until my mother reconciled with my grandmother then we ended up doing Catholic ritee whilst going to Methodist church at other times with my father.

I never felt it was force fed on me though, any more than I feel the people I brazenly but have to ignore infrequently on the streets every few months are ramming it down my throat as people mostly claim. In fact our priest said at the time in the early 2000s when I last went that it's the best time of his priesthood, because he was now instructed to guide when asked rather than tell people what to do. The only person I've ever met who used religion for control was my mother. I've met scores of priests and monks who I spent a great deal of time with in summers and just never felt that way. I guess I'm lucky not to be one of the minority who had horrendous electoral experiences.

I made my own decision that I am agnostic, but my only regret is that whilst other school children were learning, we were practicing hymns and other things of zero educational value.

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By (user no longer on site) over a year ago

I dunno OP, ever since Elvis took over, people have rather lost their appetite for skinny-hipped dudes swaying the masses (or Masses) with their proselytising and B-movie fantasies....

Judaism isholding steady.... after all... nothing says selectivity and elite living as being a member of God's Chosen... there's a kibbutz waiting just for you somewhere near the Sinai...

Mohammed.... now THERE'S a dude who's up-and-coming where the god-bothering is concerned.... heck, even the American Christians are onboard with the Prophet...

For everyone else.... well I hear that "Jedi" is becoming the most popular religion recorded in the census overseas.... so... yanno... pack those crosses, menorahs and prayer beads and time to invest in light-sabers.

May the Force be with you.

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By *risky_MareWoman over a year ago

...Up on the Downs

So things that haven’t been seen by more than one person and only described only exist in people’s heads?

By definition, if something is only, in principle, accessible as an idea in one persons head, then it only exists in that persons head.

The operative words are "in principle". One person may be the only person to have seen a new born baby but in principle anyone else can see it and confirm it's external existence.

If you want to say the concept of God exists in the same way, as an idea in human minds that can't exists outside of human minds, I'd agree with you.

Love is demonstrable.

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By *ophieslutTV/TS over a year ago

Central

Most UK citizens do not practice and believe Christianity. People are now without many social pressures to conform with it and other personal insights and freedoms have developed.

I don't have a belief in it.

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By (user no longer on site) over a year ago

So things that haven’t been seen by more than one person and only described only exist in people’s heads?

By definition, if something is only, in principle, accessible as an idea in one persons head, then it only exists in that persons head.

The operative words are "in principle". One person may be the only person to have seen a new born baby but in principle anyone else can see it and confirm it's external existence.

If you want to say the concept of God exists in the same way, as an idea in human minds that can't exists outside of human minds, I'd agree with you.

Love is demonstrable."

Precisely Frisky

And so is god. Kinky is getting muddled in what I'm saying. The experience of love is a real thing. Scientific types may put it down to certain chemical imbalances. But it's real. Similarly so is the experience of god. So both clearly exist *as experiences*. If an individual doubts the existence of those experiences they can go and have them for themselves *regardless of whether they believe they exist or not*. As such, both are eminently empirically verifiable by anyone who wants to put the effort in to seek them out.

It is an entirely secondary question whether love exists physically out in the physical universe and if god does too. I have yet to find a compelling argument that god doesn't exist and that I should therefore dismiss my experience as worthless. So until I do you'll have to excuse me for having the good sense to stick rigidly to the empirical evidence that's come to me.

But anyway... perhaps that's enough fabicide for one week

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By *inkyLondonpairCouple over a year ago

London

So things that haven’t been seen by more than one person and only described only exist in people’s heads?

By definition, if something is only, in principle, accessible as an idea in one persons head, then it only exists in that persons head.

The operative words are "in principle". One person may be the only person to have seen a new born baby but in principle anyone else can see it and confirm it's external existence.

If you want to say the concept of God exists in the same way, as an idea in human minds that can't exists outside of human minds, I'd agree with you.

Love is demonstrable.

Precisely Frisky

But anyway... perhaps that's enough fabicide for one week

If I tell you I have a strong feeling that there is an invisible pink elephant living in my garden would you believe me unless you could positively show otherwise?

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By *uckymooMan over a year ago

Mid-Cheshire

"I used to go to Sunday school then church ever Sunday morning from the age of 5 to 14, whereas I never take my children.

Didn't do me any good mind for I've lost my halo in a gutter somewhere "

I’d worship your temple

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By *rumpyMcFuckNuggetMan over a year ago

Den of Iniquity

Absolute load of bollocks imo !!

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By *risky_MareWoman over a year ago

...Up on the Downs

Love is demonstrable.

Precisely Frisky

And so is god. Kinky is getting muddled in what I'm saying. The experience of love is a real thing. Scientific types may put it down to certain chemical imbalances. But it's real. "

I think that kind of misses the point - love is demonstrable, there is cause and effect that can be observed, documented, recorded, is repeatable, predictable, etc etc.

It may also be documented as chemical changes in the brain etc, but that does not negate it's reality as an emotion, nor the observable outworkings of it.

I have no comment to make on 'God' on a sex site, but I would say the above is also true of the spiritual - there is cause and effect that can be observed, documented, recorded, is repeatable, predictable, etc etc.

Those who have not seen that evidence have merely not sought it out.

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By *electableDalliancesCouple over a year ago

leeds

Religion although I see it as a human construct to keep the masses in line ,does offer comfort and hope to many.

In that way it's a good thing.

Sadly it's all too often used as a weapon for whoevers chosen deities teachings differ. And an excuse to subjugate and demonise those that don't agree.

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By *ild_oatsMan over a year ago

the land of saints & sinners

"Religion although I see it as a human construct to keep the masses in line ,does offer comfort and hope to many.

In that way it's a good thing.

Sadly it's all too often used as a weapon for whoevers chosen deities teachings differ. And an excuse to subjugate and demonise those that don't agree.

Unfortunately there is no categorical evidence to disprove the existence of god.. which mean people cling to ideas that there must be something....

Just like fairy’s, goblins, dragons and other mythical creatures.... lack of full evidence to disprove the existence does not automatically imply existence...

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By *inkyLondonpairCouple over a year ago

London

Love is demonstrable.

Precisely Frisky

And so is god. Kinky is getting muddled in what I'm saying. The experience of love is a real thing. Scientific types may put it down to certain chemical imbalances. But it's real.

I think that kind of misses the point - love is demonstrable, there is cause and effect that can be observed, documented, recorded, is repeatable, predictable, etc etc.

It may also be documented as chemical changes in the brain etc, but that does not negate it's reality as an emotion, nor the observable outworkings of it.

Those who have not seen that evidence have merely not sought it out.

My point is about abstract concepts and the view that, by definition, abstract concepts are made by humans and can't exist other than in human minds.

"love" is an abstract concept. You can point to things external to the human mind as evidence of the existence of the concept, in that people behave in a certain way when they feel love, but the thing itself is a feeling inside the human mind. As I said, I don't think anyone would disagree that if no human beings existed love wouldn't exist.

If people want to say that. "God" or "spirituality" or anything else is like "love", a concept found in the minds of lots of people and which influences their behaviour, I agree with that.

Where I disagree is where people say. "God" exists outside and independent of human minds and would exist even if there were no human minds to think of the concept.

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By *risky_MareWoman over a year ago

...Up on the Downs

Love is demonstrable.

Precisely Frisky

And so is god. Kinky is getting muddled in what I'm saying. The experience of love is a real thing. Scientific types may put it down to certain chemical imbalances. But it's real.

I think that kind of misses the point - love is demonstrable, there is cause and effect that can be observed, documented, recorded, is repeatable, predictable, etc etc.

It may also be documented as chemical changes in the brain etc, but that does not negate it's reality as an emotion, nor the observable outworkings of it.

Those who have not seen that evidence have merely not sought it out.

My point is about abstract concepts and the view that, by definition, abstract concepts are made by humans and can't exist other than in human minds.

If people want to say that. "God" or "spirituality" or anything else is like "love", a concept found in the minds of lots of people and which influences their behaviour, I agree with that.

Where I disagree is where people say. "God" exists outside and independent of human minds and would exist even if there were no human minds to think of the concept. "

I am not talking about God, I am talking about the spiritual. And so yes, it exists totally independantly - that's the point you don't get. The spiritual is not an abstract concept.

If Christianity is right then love is not either, but I haven't thought about that enough to debate it.