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Do you believe trans women are women? 2
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But having said that I would not want to sleep with one...just my preference  | |||
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"Yes. But it doesnt matter what i think, its what they think and feel that matters." If they're meeting men who may want to marry and have kids of their own, what potential partners think matter surely! | |||
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"Yes. But it doesnt matter what i think, its what they think and feel that matters. If they're meeting men who may want to marry and have kids of their own, what potential partners think matter surely!" Men want to get laid. They may, or may not, want to marry and/or procreate.. | |||
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"Yes. But it doesnt matter what i think, its what they think and feel that matters. If they're meeting men who may want to marry and have kids of their own, what potential partners think matter surely! Men want to get laid. They may, or may not, want to marry and/or procreate.." On this site very few men even want to have a FWB type arrangement never mind marry/procreate | |||
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"Yes. But it doesnt matter what i think, its what they think and feel that matters. If they're meeting men who may want to marry and have kids of their own, what potential partners think matter surely!" The question wasnt about getting married and having children thou. | |||
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"Yes. But it doesnt matter what i think, its what they think and feel that matters." Well said. The perfect answer,in fact. | |||
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"Yes. But it doesnt matter what i think, its what they think and feel that matters. If they're meeting men who may want to marry and have kids of their own, what potential partners think matter surely! The question wasnt about getting married and having children thou." | |||
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"Fuck me, is this still going. I thought we were all in agreement they weren’t. " No,we are not all in agreement. | |||
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"Follow on from last thread. Yes I believe that trans who have totally transformed are women But the likes of myself ...not a chance as I flit in and out of it...and walk like lLsley off benidorm
But having said that I would not want to sleep with one...just my preference "You wouldn't want to sleep with which? | |||
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"Does that mean that I am not a woman as I have not had surgery? If that's the case, then you've annoyed many trans girls." Goodness, you must have a large fan club | |||
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"No. But I respect their belief that they believe they're the sex they have chosen to be" Exactly | |||
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"I respect their belief that they believe they're the sex they have chosen to be" And this is what is important really ... | |||
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"Follow on from last thread. Yes I believe that trans who have totally transformed are women But the likes of myself ...not a chance as I flit in and out of it...and walk like lLsley off benidorm
But having said that I would not want to sleep with one...just my preference "Personally I can only speak for myself,of course,I am. Some people may disagree but,And this is quite a relevant point,they don't know me.They don't know anything about me,my past,my medical history,my chromosomal or hormonal make up,my family history.....nothing. Their opinions are,therefore,completely uninformed and very easy to disregard. I repeat,I can only speak for myself.We are all individuals are we not? To make a blanket statement about any group in society is bound to be inaccurate. There may well be aspects in common within that group but,there will also be differences. We are not as one. | |||
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"A trans girl or man is that gender, and they know who they are; many know from a young age(I knew from about the age of 9). " That's the kind of blanket statement I meant in my previous post. You are effectively saying 'all members of that group are the same'. | |||
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"Surely the question really is, does an operation change someone’s sex? As u define it. I’m pretty sure most people would agree no, but then people with a vested interest would disagree " As Grandad used to say, you can cover a shit in sugar, but it's still not a donut | |||
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"Surely the question really is, does an operation change someone’s sex? As u define it. I’m pretty sure most people would agree no, but then people with a vested interest would disagree " Im not really concerned with what most people think. As I mentioned before, most people dont know me. | |||
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"Every person is individual, and what was right for you may not be for others. You're transion may have been very different or not from mine." Exactly my point. "We" are not all the same. | |||
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"Surely the question really is, does an operation change someone’s sex? As u define it. I’m pretty sure most people would agree no, but then people with a vested interest would disagree Im not really concerned with what most people think. As I mentioned before, most people dont know me." Isn’t that the point of this thread? Somebody asking a question and asking for feedback from what can only be assumed is ‘most people’ in fab world at least?. It’s great that u don’t care what people think but feeling the need to tell that to the aforementioned ‘most people’ that u don’t care about, shows quite the opposite. | |||
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"Surely the question really is, does an operation change someone’s sex? As u define it. I’m pretty sure most people would agree no, but then people with a vested interest would disagree Im not really concerned with what most people think. As I mentioned before, most people dont know me. Isn’t that the point of this thread? Somebody asking a question and asking for feedback from what can only be assumed is ‘most people’ in fab world at least?. It’s great that u don’t care what people think but feeling the need to tell that to the aforementioned ‘most people’ that u don’t care about, shows quite the opposite." Yes,it is what the OP is asking and,yes you may be right that it's the wrong question. Are trans women women? Some are,some aren't. They are not all the same. | |||
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"Surely the question really is, does an operation change someone’s sex? As u define it. I’m pretty sure most people would agree no, but then people with a vested interest would disagree Im not really concerned with what most people think. As I mentioned before, most people dont know me. Isn’t that the point of this thread? Somebody asking a question and asking for feedback from what can only be assumed is ‘most people’ in fab world at least?. It’s great that u don’t care what people think but feeling the need to tell that to the aforementioned ‘most people’ that u don’t care about, shows quite the opposite. Yes,it is what the OP is asking and,yes you may be right that it's the wrong question. Are trans women women? Some are,some aren't. They are not all the same." No one is suggesting that they are all the same, I think maybe the more accurate question would be - can a trans woman be a woman, rather than all. Can that process actually change someone gender in most people’s eyes. | |||
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"Yes. But it doesnt matter what i think, its what they think and feel that matters. If they're meeting men who may want to marry and have kids of their own, what potential partners think matter surely!" Ezakley  | |||
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"Yes. But it doesnt matter what i think, its what they think and feel that matters. If they're meeting men who may want to marry and have kids of their own, what potential partners think matter surely! Ezakley "So I’m less of a woman because I never wanted to reproduce? | |||
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"Yes. But it doesnt matter what i think, its what they think and feel that matters. If they're meeting men who may want to marry and have kids of their own, what potential partners think matter surely! Most Men want to get laid. Sum want to marry and procreate.." Fixed it for you.
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"No. But I respect their belief that they believe they're the sex they have chosen to be" I'm.in the same boat hear. | |||
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"Surely the question really is, does an operation change someone’s sex? As u define it. I’m pretty sure most people would agree no, but then people with a vested interest would disagree Im not really concerned with what most people think. As I mentioned before, most people dont know me. Isn’t that the point of this thread? Somebody asking a question and asking for feedback from what can only be assumed is ‘most people’ in fab world at least?. It’s great that u don’t care what people think but feeling the need to tell that to the aforementioned ‘most people’ that u don’t care about, shows quite the opposite. Yes,it is what the OP is asking and,yes you may be right that it's the wrong question. Are trans women women? Some are,some aren't. They are not all the same. No one is suggesting that they are all the same, I think maybe the more accurate question would be - can a trans woman be a woman, rather than all. Can that process actually change someone gender in most people’s eyes. " Well, by asking a blanket question and by receiving blanket answers,it would appear that many people are lumping all members of a group in as one. As I stated,there may be things in common but there will also be differences. I suspect that the differences far out number the similarities and that goes for any group in society. | |||
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" you are what your chromosomes say you are ." What do my chromosomes say about me? What do yours say about you for that matter? Did you ever get them checked? I didn't so the chromosome argument is a bit of a non starter. | |||
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"No. But I respect their belief that they believe they're the sex they have chosen to be" To the detriment of "real" women? I'm not so sure about that. | |||
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"No. But I respect their belief that they believe they're the sex they have chosen to be To the detriment of "real" women? I'm not so sure about that. " It could be said that everyone's presence on earth is to the detriment of somebody else. I'm not sure how my existence damages other women but if I do then I'm sorry, I never meant to cause harm. I doubt I'll get an apology from everyone who ever gained advantage over me for whatever reason but,I wouldn't really expect to. | |||
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"No. But I respect their belief that they believe they're the sex they have chosen to be To the detriment of "real" women? I'm not so sure about that. It could be said that everyone's presence on earth is to the detriment of somebody else. I'm not sure how my existence damages other women but if I do then I'm sorry, I never meant to cause harm. I doubt I'll get an apology from everyone who ever gained advantage over me for whatever reason but,I wouldn't really expect to." But would you put yourself in a position to take advantage? I don't think you would. Some guys are very devious. | |||
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"No. But I respect their belief that they believe they're the sex they have chosen to be To the detriment of "real" women? I'm not so sure about that. It could be said that everyone's presence on earth is to the detriment of somebody else. I'm not sure how my existence damages other women but if I do then I'm sorry, I never meant to cause harm. I doubt I'll get an apology from everyone who ever gained advantage over me for whatever reason but,I wouldn't really expect to. But would you put yourself in a position to take advantage? I don't think you would. Some guys are very devious." Of course I would put myself in position to take advantage...if run to be front of a queue. Id big myself up to get a job. Same as anyone would...every queue I've led, every job I've got means someone else has come second That's just life but I don't see how by just existing,I am damaging womankind (any more than I am damaging mankind..or the environment). I can't help it,I'm just here like everyone else. | |||
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"No. But I respect their belief that they believe they're the sex they have chosen to be To the detriment of "real" women? I'm not so sure about that. It could be said that everyone's presence on earth is to the detriment of somebody else. I'm not sure how my existence damages other women but if I do then I'm sorry, I never meant to cause harm. I doubt I'll get an apology from everyone who ever gained advantage over me for whatever reason but,I wouldn't really expect to. But would you put yourself in a position to take advantage? I don't think you would. Some guys are very devious. Of course I would put myself in position to take advantage...if run to be front of a queue. Id big myself up to get a job. Same as anyone would...every queue I've led, every job I've got means someone else has come second That's just life but I don't see how by just existing,I am damaging womankind (any more than I am damaging mankind..or the environment). I can't help it,I'm just here like everyone else."  | |||
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"No. But I respect their belief that they believe they're the sex they have chosen to be To the detriment of "real" women? I'm not so sure about that. It could be said that everyone's presence on earth is to the detriment of somebody else. I'm not sure how my existence damages other women but if I do then I'm sorry, I never meant to cause harm. I doubt I'll get an apology from everyone who ever gained advantage over me for whatever reason but,I wouldn't really expect to. But would you put yourself in a position to take advantage? I don't think you would. Some guys are very devious. Of course I would put myself in position to take advantage...if run to be front of a queue. Id big myself up to get a job. Same as anyone would...every queue I've led, every job I've got means someone else has come second That's just life but I don't see how by just existing,I am damaging womankind (any more than I am damaging mankind..or the environment). I can't help it,I'm just here like everyone else." So would you take up a sport to take advantage? | |||
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"No. But I respect their belief that they believe they're the sex they have chosen to be To the detriment of "real" women? I'm not so sure about that. It could be said that everyone's presence on earth is to the detriment of somebody else. I'm not sure how my existence damages other women but if I do then I'm sorry, I never meant to cause harm. I doubt I'll get an apology from everyone who ever gained advantage over me for whatever reason but,I wouldn't really expect to. But would you put yourself in a position to take advantage? I don't think you would. Some guys are very devious. Of course I would put myself in position to take advantage...if run to be front of a queue. Id big myself up to get a job. Same as anyone would...every queue I've led, every job I've got means someone else has come second That's just life but I don't see how by just existing,I am damaging womankind (any more than I am damaging mankind..or the environment). I can't help it,I'm just here like everyone else. So would you take up a sport to take advantage?" I suppose if I were to take up a sport,I would do all I could,short of cheating, to be the best I could. Incidentally I have,in younger days, competed in sports with varying degrees of success. Including getting my ass whipped by a 14 yr old girl at judo and watching my 5ft tall,feather light friend outrun,out climb and out weight train me every time. I really dont believe chromosomes or hormones made a great deal of difference. Any alleged advantages that im supposed to have had never manifested themselves. (I'm quite good at reversing vehicles though,not sure that proves anything but you can use it if you like). | |||
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"No. But I respect their belief that they believe they're the sex they have chosen to be To the detriment of "real" women? I'm not so sure about that. It could be said that everyone's presence on earth is to the detriment of somebody else. I'm not sure how my existence damages other women but if I do then I'm sorry, I never meant to cause harm. I doubt I'll get an apology from everyone who ever gained advantage over me for whatever reason but,I wouldn't really expect to. But would you put yourself in a position to take advantage? I don't think you would. Some guys are very devious. Of course I would put myself in position to take advantage...if run to be front of a queue. Id big myself up to get a job. Same as anyone would...every queue I've led, every job I've got means someone else has come second That's just life but I don't see how by just existing,I am damaging womankind (any more than I am damaging mankind..or the environment). I can't help it,I'm just here like everyone else. So would you take up a sport to take advantage? I suppose if I were to take up a sport,I would do all I could,short of cheating, to be the best I could. Incidentally I have,in younger days, competed in sports with varying degrees of success. Including getting my ass whipped by a 14 yr old girl at judo and watching my 5ft tall,feather light friend outrun,out climb and out weight train me every time. I really dont believe chromosomes or hormones made a great deal of difference. Any alleged advantages that im supposed to have had never manifested themselves. (I'm quite good at reversing vehicles though,not sure that proves anything but you can use it if you like)." So you don’t believe chromosomes or hormones made any difference, because you have made the smallest comparison of one person verses a handful and have made a big blanket decision based on the smallest sample experiment ever. Yet you bemoan other people making blanket statements because they don’t agree with you? | |||
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"No. But I respect their belief that they believe they're the sex they have chosen to be To the detriment of "real" women? I'm not so sure about that. It could be said that everyone's presence on earth is to the detriment of somebody else. I'm not sure how my existence damages other women but if I do then I'm sorry, I never meant to cause harm. I doubt I'll get an apology from everyone who ever gained advantage over me for whatever reason but,I wouldn't really expect to. But would you put yourself in a position to take advantage? I don't think you would. Some guys are very devious. Of course I would put myself in position to take advantage...if run to be front of a queue. Id big myself up to get a job. Same as anyone would...every queue I've led, every job I've got means someone else has come second That's just life but I don't see how by just existing,I am damaging womankind (any more than I am damaging mankind..or the environment). I can't help it,I'm just here like everyone else. So would you take up a sport to take advantage? I suppose if I were to take up a sport,I would do all I could,short of cheating, to be the best I could. Incidentally I have,in younger days, competed in sports with varying degrees of success. Including getting my ass whipped by a 14 yr old girl at judo and watching my 5ft tall,feather light friend outrun,out climb and out weight train me every time. I really dont believe chromosomes or hormones made a great deal of difference. Any alleged advantages that im supposed to have had never manifested themselves. (I'm quite good at reversing vehicles though,not sure that proves anything but you can use it if you like)." I'm good at reversing and parking and I hate shopping. | |||
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"Follow on from last thread. Yes I believe that trans who have totally transformed are women But the likes of myself ...not a chance as I flit in and out of it...and walk like lLsley off benidorm
But having said that I would not want to sleep with one...just my preference
You wouldn't want to sleep with which?"Well i wouldn't want to sleep with a fellow tv....I don't think I would want to sleep with a transformed person...and that is not being bias as there are quite a few born ladies I would not want to sleep with too....but who knows as for me there has to be a attraction as I'm not in the every hole is a goal club. | |||
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"No. But I respect their belief that they believe they're the sex they have chosen to be To the detriment of "real" women? I'm not so sure about that. It could be said that everyone's presence on earth is to the detriment of somebody else. I'm not sure how my existence damages other women but if I do then I'm sorry, I never meant to cause harm. I doubt I'll get an apology from everyone who ever gained advantage over me for whatever reason but,I wouldn't really expect to. But would you put yourself in a position to take advantage? I don't think you would. Some guys are very devious. Of course I would put myself in position to take advantage...if run to be front of a queue. Id big myself up to get a job. Same as anyone would...every queue I've led, every job I've got means someone else has come second That's just life but I don't see how by just existing,I am damaging womankind (any more than I am damaging mankind..or the environment). I can't help it,I'm just here like everyone else. So would you take up a sport to take advantage? I suppose if I were to take up a sport,I would do all I could,short of cheating, to be the best I could. Incidentally I have,in younger days, competed in sports with varying degrees of success. Including getting my ass whipped by a 14 yr old girl at judo and watching my 5ft tall,feather light friend outrun,out climb and out weight train me every time. I really dont believe chromosomes or hormones made a great deal of difference. Any alleged advantages that im supposed to have had never manifested themselves. (I'm quite good at reversing vehicles though,not sure that proves anything but you can use it if you like). I'm good at reversing and parking and I hate shopping. " I love shopping | |||
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"Does that mean that I am not a woman as I have not had surgery? If that's the case, then you've annoyed many trans girls." Thats not been said thou ! The question was about people who have been completely transformed (i may not have written that exactly right as i cant check the exact question right now). It doesnt ask about those that havnt had surgery. | |||
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"Does that mean that I am not a woman as I have not had surgery? If that's the case, then you've annoyed many trans girls. Thats not been said thou ! The question was about people who have been completely transformed (i may not have written that exactly right as i cant check the exact question right now). It doesnt ask about those that havnt had surgery. " Why would annoying people be an issue? This is a subject that people feel strongly about and some of the views are strong. I’m sure many people think things that would annoy many ‘girls’ but the point of this is to be open and give your view on the question asked. No offence is meant but it’s going to happen | |||
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"Fuck me, is this still going. I thought we were all in agreement they weren’t. " New name for you - Master Baiter  | |||
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"No. But I respect their belief that they believe they're the gender they have chosen to be" FTFY | |||
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"Surely the question really is, does an operation change someone’s sex? As u define it. I’m pretty sure most people would agree no, but then people with a vested interest would disagree " Sex and gender are not the same thing. | |||
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"Surely the question really is, does an operation change someone’s sex? As u define it. I’m pretty sure most people would agree no, but then people with a vested interest would disagree Im not really concerned with what most people think. As I mentioned before, most people dont know me. Isn’t that the point of this thread? Somebody asking a question and asking for feedback from what can only be assumed is ‘most people’ in fab world at least?. It’s great that u don’t care what people think but feeling the need to tell that to the aforementioned ‘most people’ that u don’t care about, shows quite the opposite. Yes,it is what the OP is asking and,yes you may be right that it's the wrong question. Are trans women women? Some are,some aren't. They are not all the same." Rightly or wrongly imo transwomen being women depends on pre/post op. I wouldn't call a transwoman with a cock a woman, but a transwoman (pre-op). But due to her identifying as a woman, i have no problems using she/her. | |||
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"Surely the question really is, does an operation change someone’s sex? As u define it. I’m pretty sure most people would agree no, but then people with a vested interest would disagree Sex and gender are not the same thing." Could you explain further? Or someone else provide clarity? | |||
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" you are what your chromosomes say you are ." And the anomalies? | |||
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" Could you explain further? Or someone else provide clarity? " Sex is what is between your legs. Gender is what is between your ears. Basically. | |||
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"One thing i do love is sucking on a big trans woman's cock before she bends me over and fucks me. Sooo nice when she fills my ass with her girl sperm! Mmmmmmm! Safe in the knowledge it had been a completely STRAIGHT sexual act with a woman. "Dementia or baiting? | |||
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"No. But I respect their belief that they believe they're the sex they have chosen to be To the detriment of "real" women? I'm not so sure about that. It could be said that everyone's presence on earth is to the detriment of somebody else. I'm not sure how my existence damages other women but if I do then I'm sorry, I never meant to cause harm. I doubt I'll get an apology from everyone who ever gained advantage over me for whatever reason but,I wouldn't really expect to. But would you put yourself in a position to take advantage? I don't think you would. Some guys are very devious. Of course I would put myself in position to take advantage...if run to be front of a queue. Id big myself up to get a job. Same as anyone would...every queue I've led, every job I've got means someone else has come second That's just life but I don't see how by just existing,I am damaging womankind (any more than I am damaging mankind..or the environment). I can't help it,I'm just here like everyone else. So would you take up a sport to take advantage? I suppose if I were to take up a sport,I would do all I could,short of cheating, to be the best I could. Incidentally I have,in younger days, competed in sports with varying degrees of success. Including getting my ass whipped by a 14 yr old girl at judo and watching my 5ft tall,feather light friend outrun,out climb and out weight train me every time. I really dont believe chromosomes or hormones made a great deal of difference. Any alleged advantages that im supposed to have had never manifested themselves. (I'm quite good at reversing vehicles though,not sure that proves anything but you can use it if you like). So you don’t believe chromosomes or hormones made any difference, because you have made the smallest comparison of one person verses a handful and have made a big blanket decision based on the smallest sample experiment ever. Yet you bemoan other people making blanket statements because they don’t agree with you? " Her position is based on personal experience that neither you or i have had. She is expressing her opinion and ruling out blanket statements. You seem confused. | |||
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" Could you explain further? Or someone else provide clarity? Sex is what is between your legs. Gender is what is between your ears. Basically." So when MMA has a womens division. Is that referring to gender or sex? | |||
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"One thing i do love is sucking on a big trans woman's cock before she bends me over and fucks me. Sooo nice when she fills my ass with her girl sperm! Mmmmmmm! Safe in the knowledge it had been a completely STRAIGHT sexual act with a woman.
Dementia or baiting?" | |||
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" Could you explain further? Or someone else provide clarity? Sex is what is between your legs. Gender is what is between your ears. Basically." brilliant, not academic but totally brilliant | |||
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" So when MMA has a womens division. Is that referring to gender or sex? " I have no idea. What is MMA? | |||
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" Could you explain further? Or someone else provide clarity? Sex is what is between your legs. Gender is what is between your ears. Basically. So when MMA has a womens division. Is that referring to gender or sex? " What's MMA? | |||
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" Could you explain further? Or someone else provide clarity? Sex is what is between your legs. Gender is what is between your ears. Basically. So when MMA has a womens division. Is that referring to gender or sex? What's MMA?" Mixed Martial Arts, it's possibly the most violent legal sport there is. The gloves are much lighter than boxing and people get arms and legs snapped, literally. | |||
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"That moment when you realise 95% of people on this thread, didn't read the first one and are just repeating the same brain-dead logic we already debunked. "Does that matter ? | |||
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"That moment when you realise 95% of people on this thread, didn't read the first one and are just repeating the same brain-dead logic we already debunked.
Does that matter ?"Depends if they care about sounding intelligent or not. If not, then no it's fine. | |||
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" Could you explain further? Or someone else provide clarity? Sex is what is between your legs. Gender is what is between your ears. Basically." Cool is that theory or fact? | |||
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" Could you explain further? Or someone else provide clarity? Sex is what is between your legs. Gender is what is between your ears. Basically." What a crock of shit, so if I think I’m a plant, I’m a plant? Irrespective of if I am actually a plant? | |||
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" Could you explain further? Or someone else provide clarity? Sex is what is between your legs. Gender is what is between your ears. Basically. What a crock of shit, so if I think I’m a plant, I’m a plant? Irrespective of if I am actually a plant? " Coming up with silly analogies doesn't help anyone. Thinking you are a different gender to your biological sex is nothing at all like thinking you are an entirely different kind of being. | |||
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" Could you explain further? Or someone else provide clarity? Sex is what is between your legs. Gender is what is between your ears. Basically. What a crock of shit, so if I think I’m a plant, I’m a plant? Irrespective of if I am actually a plant? Coming up with silly analogies doesn't help anyone. Thinking you are a different gender to your biological sex is nothing at all like thinking you are an entirely different kind of being. " Feel free to answer my MMA question | |||
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" Could you explain further? Or someone else provide clarity? Sex is what is between your legs. Gender is what is between your ears. Basically. What a crock of shit, so if I think I’m a plant, I’m a plant? Irrespective of if I am actually a plant? " Show us your stalk and i'll tell you. | |||
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" Could you explain further? Or someone else provide clarity? Sex is what is between your legs. Gender is what is between your ears. Basically. What a crock of shit, so if I think I’m a plant, I’m a plant? Irrespective of if I am actually a plant? Coming up with silly analogies doesn't help anyone. Thinking you are a different gender to your biological sex is nothing at all like thinking you are an entirely different kind of being. " There's a difference between saying A. Despite having a male body I feel more comfortable performing traditional female gender roles, B. Despite having a male body I feel more comfortable performing traditional female gender roles therefore I am female. The analogy applies to B but not A. | |||
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"How do you feel like a sex? I've been trying to work out what it feels like to be a woman, and I've come up with nothing, except I have painful boobs and I'm aware of my vagina. " That's my issue with the ideology. I have no sense of being male other than via my physical body. I therefore cannot accept that everyone has a gender identity separate from their physicality. | |||
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"A lot of this is pure theology. I don't think anyone would dispute that whatever genitals you have you should be able to wear what you like and adhere to or depart from whatever traditional gender role you like. When you start asking people whether the statement. "Trans women are women" is true or not you are then asking an existential question about the nature of reality (objective or subjective, material or ideal) and how we use language. As it happens I think the statement "transwomen are women" is internally contradictory, so I can't agree with it. Other people are, of course, free to take a different view. Just as I believe the statement "God exists" is incorrect without denying the right of other people to think differently. " I concur. I still get frustrated that even the sex versus gender conversation, implies sex is a binary concept though. | |||
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" That's my issue with the ideology. I have no sense of being male other than via my physical body. I therefore cannot accept that everyone has a gender identity separate from their physicality. " I'm not a doctor, but I'd say that means you do not suffer from gender dysphoria. That's good news. | |||
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"How do you feel like a sex? I've been trying to work out what it feels like to be a woman, and I've come up with nothing, except I have painful boobs and I'm aware of my vagina. That's my issue with the ideology. I have no sense of being male other than via my physical body. I therefore cannot accept that everyone has a gender identity separate from their physicality. " Can you expand/clarify what you mean by your last line, please? | |||
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" Could you explain further? Or someone else provide clarity? Sex is what is between your legs. Gender is what is between your ears. Basically. Cool is that theory or fact? " Sex - an anatomical/physiological categorisation Gender - a construct formed by socialisation and culture - can cause problems when one identifies as the opposite sex in which they are categorised. Identification occurs due to a combination of the above plus hormones and neurotransmitters... Hence "between the ears". | |||
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" That's my issue with the ideology. I have no sense of being male other than via my physical body. I therefore cannot accept that everyone has a gender identity separate from their physicality. I'm not a doctor, but I'd say that means you do not suffer from gender dysphoria. That's good news. " Ahhh, is that what he was saying? I thought he was negating the possibility another might! Ah. | |||
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"A lot of this is pure theology. I don't think anyone would dispute that whatever genitals you have you should be able to wear what you like and adhere to or depart from whatever traditional gender role you like. When you start asking people whether the statement. "Trans women are women" is true or not you are then asking an existential question about the nature of reality (objective or subjective, material or ideal) and how we use language. As it happens I think the statement "transwomen are women" is internally contradictory, so I can't agree with it. Other people are, of course, free to take a different view. Just as I believe the statement "God exists" is incorrect without denying the right of other people to think differently. I concur. I still get frustrated that even the sex versus gender conversation, implies sex is a binary concept though." In 99% of cases, sex is binary. Like all other mammals human beings are a sexual dimorphic species. You can perform whatever of the myriad gender roles you like, but to deny this is to deny physical reality. | |||
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"A lot of this is pure theology. I don't think anyone would dispute that whatever genitals you have you should be able to wear what you like and adhere to or depart from whatever traditional gender role you like. When you start asking people whether the statement. "Trans women are women" is true or not you are then asking an existential question about the nature of reality (objective or subjective, material or ideal) and how we use language. As it happens I think the statement "transwomen are women" is internally contradictory, so I can't agree with it. Other people are, of course, free to take a different view. Just as I believe the statement "God exists" is incorrect without denying the right of other people to think differently. " Well articulated. Unlike "a crock of shit" statement recently  | |||
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" Could you explain further? Or someone else provide clarity? Sex is what is between your legs. Gender is what is between your ears. Basically. Cool is that theory or fact? Sex - an anatomical/physiological categorisation Gender - a construct formed by socialisation and culture - can cause problems when one identifies as the opposite sex in which they are categorised. Identification occurs due to a combination of the above plus hormones and neurotransmitters... Hence "between the ears"." Remind me which one the women's MMA division is? Gender or Sex? | |||
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"A lot of this is pure theology. I don't think anyone would dispute that whatever genitals you have you should be able to wear what you like and adhere to or depart from whatever traditional gender role you like. When you start asking people whether the statement. "Trans women are women" is true or not you are then asking an existential question about the nature of reality (objective or subjective, material or ideal) and how we use language. As it happens I think the statement "transwomen are women" is internally contradictory, so I can't agree with it. Other people are, of course, free to take a different view. Just as I believe the statement "God exists" is incorrect without denying the right of other people to think differently. I concur. I still get frustrated that even the sex versus gender conversation, implies sex is a binary concept though. In 99% of cases, sex is binary. Like all other mammals human beings are a sexual dimorphic species. You can perform whatever of the myriad gender roles you like, but to deny this is to deny physical reality. " It’s important that people don’t negate the fact of intersex though. And to talk binary sex classification does. | |||
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"How do you feel like a sex? I've been trying to work out what it feels like to be a woman, and I've come up with nothing, except I have painful boobs and I'm aware of my vagina. That's my issue with the ideology. I have no sense of being male other than via my physical body. I therefore cannot accept that everyone has a gender identity separate from their physicality. Can you expand/clarify what you mean by your last line, please?" As I understand Trans theory is that everyone has a gender identity which is someone separate from their physical sex. The theory goes that if your gender identity is congruent with your physical sex then you are cis gender. I deny that I have a gender identity separate from my physical sex and thus deny the theory that everyone has this gender identity. By extension I also don't accept the cis label applying to me. | |||
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" Could you explain further? Or someone else provide clarity? Sex is what is between your legs. Gender is what is between your ears. Basically. Cool is that theory or fact? Sex - an anatomical/physiological categorisation Gender - a construct formed by socialisation and culture - can cause problems when one identifies as the opposite sex in which they are categorised. Identification occurs due to a combination of the above plus hormones and neurotransmitters... Hence "between the ears". Remind me which one the women's MMA division is? Gender or Sex?" Let’s just get rid of MMA, it sounds awful. | |||
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" Could you explain further? Or someone else provide clarity? Sex is what is between your legs. Gender is what is between your ears. Basically. What a crock of shit, so if I think I’m a plant, I’m a plant? Irrespective of if I am actually a plant? Coming up with silly analogies doesn't help anyone. Thinking you are a different gender to your biological sex is nothing at all like thinking you are an entirely different kind of being. There's a difference between saying A. Despite having a male body I feel more comfortable performing traditional female gender roles, B. Despite having a male body I feel more comfortable performing traditional female gender roles therefore I am female. The analogy applies to B but not A. " Oooh horrid . The horrid bit is the choosing of actions as opposed to thoughts and feelings. | |||
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" Could you explain further? Or someone else provide clarity? Sex is what is between your legs. Gender is what is between your ears. Basically. Cool is that theory or fact? Sex - an anatomical/physiological categorisation Gender - a construct formed by socialisation and culture - can cause problems when one identifies as the opposite sex in which they are categorised. Identification occurs due to a combination of the above plus hormones and neurotransmitters... Hence "between the ears". Remind me which one the women's MMA division is? Gender or Sex? Let’s just get rid of MMA, it sounds awful. "Everyone loves gender theory until they think through what it actually means. | |||
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"A lot of this is pure theology. I don't think anyone would dispute that whatever genitals you have you should be able to wear what you like and adhere to or depart from whatever traditional gender role you like. When you start asking people whether the statement. "Trans women are women" is true or not you are then asking an existential question about the nature of reality (objective or subjective, material or ideal) and how we use language. As it happens I think the statement "transwomen are women" is internally contradictory, so I can't agree with it. Other people are, of course, free to take a different view. Just as I believe the statement "God exists" is incorrect without denying the right of other people to think differently. I concur. I still get frustrated that even the sex versus gender conversation, implies sex is a binary concept though. In 99% of cases, sex is binary. Like all other mammals human beings are a sexual dimorphic species. You can perform whatever of the myriad gender roles you like, but to deny this is to deny physical reality. It’s important that people don’t negate the fact of intersex though. And to talk binary sex classification does." Indeed, but the existence of intersex people is obviously a completely separate issue from people who are clearly biologically one sex claiming they are the other sex. | |||
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"Yes of course! Its all about how you feel inside, not look outside. If your brain was transferred into the body of the opposite sex, do you really think you woukd change mentally into the opposite sex? Of course not! So the brain is the ultimate decider of sex, the body just a physical shell. Intersex people are born having both sexual organs physically, so nature can mess up physically, so that shows it can mess up mentally too! Otherwise you are denying mental health exists.. " So you're happy for biological men to beat the shit out of biological women, in women's sports, as long as those biological men feel like a woman? | |||
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"How do you feel like a sex? I've been trying to work out what it feels like to be a woman, and I've come up with nothing, except I have painful boobs and I'm aware of my vagina. That's my issue with the ideology. I have no sense of being male other than via my physical body. I therefore cannot accept that everyone has a gender identity separate from their physicality. Can you expand/clarify what you mean by your last line, please? As I understand Trans theory is that everyone has a gender identity which is someone separate from their physical sex. The theory goes that if your gender identity is congruent with your physical sex then you are cis gender. I deny that I have a gender identity separate from my physical sex and thus deny the theory that everyone has this gender identity. By extension I also don't accept the cis label applying to me. " Are you by extrapolation denying that another might have a gender identity separate from their sex classification where the two are at odds? I’m just trying to grasp if you’re saying (sorry if I’m not following) that you’d disagree that someone born with a male assigned body at birth, could be female as their gender identification? Regardless of whether you respect their right to present and self identify as they want, you’d not believe them..? | |||
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" Could you explain further? Or someone else provide clarity? Sex is what is between your legs. Gender is what is between your ears. Basically. Cool is that theory or fact? Sex - an anatomical/physiological categorisation Gender - a construct formed by socialisation and culture - can cause problems when one identifies as the opposite sex in which they are categorised. Identification occurs due to a combination of the above plus hormones and neurotransmitters... Hence "between the ears". Remind me which one the women's MMA division is? Gender or Sex? Let’s just get rid of MMA, it sounds awful.
Everyone loves gender theory until they think through what it actually means. "Not so. I just think the sport sounds horrid! | |||
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"A lot of this is pure theology. I don't think anyone would dispute that whatever genitals you have you should be able to wear what you like and adhere to or depart from whatever traditional gender role you like. When you start asking people whether the statement. "Trans women are women" is true or not you are then asking an existential question about the nature of reality (objective or subjective, material or ideal) and how we use language. As it happens I think the statement "transwomen are women" is internally contradictory, so I can't agree with it. Other people are, of course, free to take a different view. Just as I believe the statement "God exists" is incorrect without denying the right of other people to think differently. I concur. I still get frustrated that even the sex versus gender conversation, implies sex is a binary concept though. In 99% of cases, sex is binary. Like all other mammals human beings are a sexual dimorphic species. You can perform whatever of the myriad gender roles you like, but to deny this is to deny physical reality. It’s important that people don’t negate the fact of intersex though. And to talk binary sex classification does. Indeed, but the existence of intersex people is obviously a completely separate issue from people who are clearly biologically one sex claiming they are the other sex. " Oh I know, I just thought it would be useful to remind people not to oversimplify. | |||
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"How do you feel like a sex? I've been trying to work out what it feels like to be a woman, and I've come up with nothing, except I have painful boobs and I'm aware of my vagina. That's my issue with the ideology. I have no sense of being male other than via my physical body. I therefore cannot accept that everyone has a gender identity separate from their physicality. " Identity is such an interesting aspect of human nature. I would suggest identity is both conscious and unconscious and evolves due to our experiences and intact memory. Identifying is conscious and therefore a choice. | |||
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" Could you explain further? Or someone else provide clarity? Sex is what is between your legs. Gender is what is between your ears. Basically. Cool is that theory or fact? Sex - an anatomical/physiological categorisation Gender - a construct formed by socialisation and culture - can cause problems when one identifies as the opposite sex in which they are categorised. Identification occurs due to a combination of the above plus hormones and neurotransmitters... Hence "between the ears". Remind me which one the women's MMA division is? Gender or Sex? Let’s just get rid of MMA, it sounds awful.
Everyone loves gender theory until they think through what it actually means.
Not so. I just think the sport sounds horrid!"It's one of only 3 sports where women make full time professional careers that aren't government subsidised. Best sport on the planet. | |||
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"A lot of this is pure theology. I don't think anyone would dispute that whatever genitals you have you should be able to wear what you like and adhere to or depart from whatever traditional gender role you like. When you start asking people whether the statement. "Trans women are women" is true or not you are then asking an existential question about the nature of reality (objective or subjective, material or ideal) and how we use language. As it happens I think the statement "transwomen are women" is internally contradictory, so I can't agree with it. Other people are, of course, free to take a different view. Just as I believe the statement "God exists" is incorrect without denying the right of other people to think differently. I concur. I still get frustrated that even the sex versus gender conversation, implies sex is a binary concept though." Yep especially when biology throws up anomalies. | |||
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"How do you feel like a sex? I've been trying to work out what it feels like to be a woman, and I've come up with nothing, except I have painful boobs and I'm aware of my vagina. That's my issue with the ideology. I have no sense of being male other than via my physical body. I therefore cannot accept that everyone has a gender identity separate from their physicality. Can you expand/clarify what you mean by your last line, please? As I understand Trans theory is that everyone has a gender identity which is someone separate from their physical sex. The theory goes that if your gender identity is congruent with your physical sex then you are cis gender. I deny that I have a gender identity separate from my physical sex and thus deny the theory that everyone has this gender identity. By extension I also don't accept the cis label applying to me. Are you by extrapolation denying that another might have a gender identity separate from their sex classification where the two are at odds? I’m just trying to grasp if you’re saying (sorry if I’m not following) that you’d disagree that someone born with a male assigned body at birth, could be female as their gender identification? Regardless of whether you respect their right to present and self identify as they want, you’d not believe them..?" Some people say they have a strong feeling of gender identity which is separate from their physicality. I have no reason to disbelieve them when they say they have that feeling. The crucial point though is that all that is proof of is that they have this feeling. Their having the feeling says nothing about the nature of external reality. | |||
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" Could you explain further? Or someone else provide clarity? Sex is what is between your legs. Gender is what is between your ears. Basically. Cool is that theory or fact? Sex - an anatomical/physiological categorisation Gender - a construct formed by socialisation and culture - can cause problems when one identifies as the opposite sex in which they are categorised. Identification occurs due to a combination of the above plus hormones and neurotransmitters... Hence "between the ears". Remind me which one the women's MMA division is? Gender or Sex? Let’s just get rid of MMA, it sounds awful. "Typical loony lefty response. "I dont like it so ban it!"  | |||
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" Could you explain further? Or someone else provide clarity? Sex is what is between your legs. Gender is what is between your ears. Basically. Cool is that theory or fact? Sex - an anatomical/physiological categorisation Gender - a construct formed by socialisation and culture - can cause problems when one identifies as the opposite sex in which they are categorised. Identification occurs due to a combination of the above plus hormones and neurotransmitters... Hence "between the ears". Remind me which one the women's MMA division is? Gender or Sex? Let’s just get rid of MMA, it sounds awful.
Everyone loves gender theory until they think through what it actually means.
Not so. I just think the sport sounds horrid!
It's one of only 3 sports where women make full time professional careers that aren't government subsidised. Best sport on the planet. "I’m now considering if I’d beat you in a go at it. I reckon I would. | |||
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" Could you explain further? Or someone else provide clarity? Sex is what is between your legs. Gender is what is between your ears. Basically. Cool is that theory or fact? Sex - an anatomical/physiological categorisation Gender - a construct formed by socialisation and culture - can cause problems when one identifies as the opposite sex in which they are categorised. Identification occurs due to a combination of the above plus hormones and neurotransmitters... Hence "between the ears". Remind me which one the women's MMA division is? Gender or Sex? Let’s just get rid of MMA, it sounds awful.
Typical loony lefty response. "I dont like it so ban it!" "It was a joke, Clem - as well you know! | |||
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" Could you explain further? Or someone else provide clarity? Sex is what is between your legs. Gender is what is between your ears. Basically. Cool is that theory or fact? Sex - an anatomical/physiological categorisation Gender - a construct formed by socialisation and culture - can cause problems when one identifies as the opposite sex in which they are categorised. Identification occurs due to a combination of the above plus hormones and neurotransmitters... Hence "between the ears". Remind me which one the women's MMA division is? Gender or Sex? Let’s just get rid of MMA, it sounds awful.
Everyone loves gender theory until they think through what it actually means.
Not so. I just think the sport sounds horrid!
It's one of only 3 sports where women make full time professional careers that aren't government subsidised. Best sport on the planet.
I’m now considering if I’d beat you in a go at it. I reckon I would. "You just want an excuse to get on top of me  | |||
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" Could you explain further? Or someone else provide clarity? Sex is what is between your legs. Gender is what is between your ears. Basically. What a crock of shit, so if I think I’m a plant, I’m a plant? Irrespective of if I am actually a plant? Coming up with silly analogies doesn't help anyone. Thinking you are a different gender to your biological sex is nothing at all like thinking you are an entirely different kind of being. Feel free to answer my MMA question" I'm not really very interested, to be honest. So long as the matches they set up are fair in terms of relatively equal weight, strength and skill and all that, cool. How many trans MMA fighters are there? This isn't an issue that affects the vast vast majority of trans people, and picking on it in order to try and find an area of controversy doesn't seem helpful. Sex and gender are complicated and there aren't going to be easy answers sometimes. | |||
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" Could you explain further? Or someone else provide clarity? Sex is what is between your legs. Gender is what is between your ears. Basically. Cool is that theory or fact? " It's a dumbed-down interpretation of a complex subject, a way to communicate the different meaning of the terms. Every single one of us begins life as female. About 14 weeks into pregnancy, a switch gets flicked in the mother and about half of the foetuses are doused in chemicals to stimulate the growth of male characteristics. Does that work perfectly every time? We know that babies are born with all sorts of imperfections. How often do you hear prospective parents say they don't care what sex their child is, so long as it is healthy. A baby appears, a clinician takes a quick look at the genitals and from that moment on their life is conditioned by the blue-is-for-boys, pink-is-for-girls mindset of others. The child seems healthy, and the parents quickly lose sight of that feeling they do not care about the sex. Gender dysphoria is the clinical term for someone who, as they grow, becomes distressed by the feeling their sense of gender is at odds with their physical characteristics. Some people suppress it, others learn to live with it and some people require clinical intervention to fix it. Gender reassignment surgery is carried out in the most acute cases. Others cannot cope and commit suicide. Often, people displaying signs of gender dysphoria are mocked, abused and ridiculed by society, and this simply adds to the stress surrounding the condition. | |||
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"How do you feel like a sex? I've been trying to work out what it feels like to be a woman, and I've come up with nothing, except I have painful boobs and I'm aware of my vagina. That's my issue with the ideology. I have no sense of being male other than via my physical body. I therefore cannot accept that everyone has a gender identity separate from their physicality. Can you expand/clarify what you mean by your last line, please? As I understand Trans theory is that everyone has a gender identity which is someone separate from their physical sex. The theory goes that if your gender identity is congruent with your physical sex then you are cis gender. I deny that I have a gender identity separate from my physical sex and thus deny the theory that everyone has this gender identity. By extension I also don't accept the cis label applying to me. Are you by extrapolation denying that another might have a gender identity separate from their sex classification where the two are at odds? I’m just trying to grasp if you’re saying (sorry if I’m not following) that you’d disagree that someone born with a male assigned body at birth, could be female as their gender identification? Regardless of whether you respect their right to present and self identify as they want, you’d not believe them..? Some people say they have a strong feeling of gender identity which is separate from their physicality. I have no reason to disbelieve them when they say they have that feeling. The crucial point though is that all that is proof of is that they have this feeling. Their having the feeling says nothing about the nature of external reality. " So...I’m following, what are you saying? That we should take no notice? In terms of no recognition where it comes into play - leading up to the MMA question? | |||
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" Could you explain further? Or someone else provide clarity? Sex is what is between your legs. Gender is what is between your ears. Basically. Cool is that theory or fact? Sex - an anatomical/physiological categorisation Gender - a construct formed by socialisation and culture - can cause problems when one identifies as the opposite sex in which they are categorised. Identification occurs due to a combination of the above plus hormones and neurotransmitters... Hence "between the ears". Remind me which one the women's MMA division is? Gender or Sex?" You are obsessed with sport. I'm sticking with what i have knowledge of - biopsychosocial theories - theories until disproved. | |||
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" Could you explain further? Or someone else provide clarity? Sex is what is between your legs. Gender is what is between your ears. Basically. Cool is that theory or fact? Sex - an anatomical/physiological categorisation Gender - a construct formed by socialisation and culture - can cause problems when one identifies as the opposite sex in which they are categorised. Identification occurs due to a combination of the above plus hormones and neurotransmitters... Hence "between the ears". Remind me which one the women's MMA division is? Gender or Sex? Let’s just get rid of MMA, it sounds awful.
Everyone loves gender theory until they think through what it actually means.
Not so. I just think the sport sounds horrid!
It's one of only 3 sports where women make full time professional careers that aren't government subsidised. Best sport on the planet.
I’m now considering if I’d beat you in a go at it. I reckon I would.
You just want an excuse to get on top of me "Beat the shit out of/get on top of - I say gender, you say sex. | |||
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"I imagine in a few years time, all those people who from a very early age believed that they were dinosaurs or super hero's will be proud of their new status within society. "Yah, i always knew deep down i was a Tyrannosaurus Rex, so that's why i need my own changing room, and er, if you don't agree it's a hate crime, so....."" It must be hard being a dinosaur, Clem. I feel for you. | |||
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"Yes of course! Its all about how you feel inside, not look outside. If your brain was transferred into the body of the opposite sex, do you really think you woukd change mentally into the opposite sex? Of course not! So the brain is the ultimate decider of sex, the body just a physical shell. Intersex people are born having both sexual organs physically, so nature can mess up physically, so that shows it can mess up mentally too! Otherwise you are denying mental health exists.. " I would hypothesise that there would be some changes to the brain after transplant. | |||
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" Could you explain further? Or someone else provide clarity? Sex is what is between your legs. Gender is what is between your ears. Basically. What a crock of shit, so if I think I’m a plant, I’m a plant? Irrespective of if I am actually a plant? Coming up with silly analogies doesn't help anyone. Thinking you are a different gender to your biological sex is nothing at all like thinking you are an entirely different kind of being. Feel free to answer my MMA question I'm not really very interested, to be honest. So long as the matches they set up are fair in terms of relatively equal weight, strength and skill and all that, cool. How many trans MMA fighters are there? This isn't an issue that affects the vast vast majority of trans people, and picking on it in order to try and find an area of controversy doesn't seem helpful. Sex and gender are complicated and there aren't going to be easy answers sometimes." Typical dodge like the others on the thread. You love gender theory until it starts enabling men to knock women out legally. Your response is typically immature and poorly thought through. Men and women of the same weight will not have the same strength, on average. MMA is one of only 3 sports women can make a professional career. So it's important to them if their careers get derailed by a man beating the fuck out of them. This is why left wing policies always fall victim to the law of unintended consequences. | |||
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" Could you explain further? Or someone else provide clarity? Sex is what is between your legs. Gender is what is between your ears. Basically. What a crock of shit, so if I think I’m a plant, I’m a plant? Irrespective of if I am actually a plant? Coming up with silly analogies doesn't help anyone. Thinking you are a different gender to your biological sex is nothing at all like thinking you are an entirely different kind of being. Feel free to answer my MMA question I'm not really very interested, to be honest. So long as the matches they set up are fair in terms of relatively equal weight, strength and skill and all that, cool. How many trans MMA fighters are there? This isn't an issue that affects the vast vast majority of trans people, and picking on it in order to try and find an area of controversy doesn't seem helpful. Sex and gender are complicated and there aren't going to be easy answers sometimes. Typical dodge like the others on the thread. You love gender theory until it starts enabling men to knock women out legally. Your response is typically immature and poorly thought through. Men and women of the same weight will not have the same strength, on average. MMA is one of only 3 sports women can make a professional career. So it's important to them if their careers get derailed by a man beating the fuck out of them. This is why left wing policies always fall victim to the law of unintended consequences. " I explicitly said that I would want MMA fights to be fair. I even mentioned strength as one of the factors in deciding that, which you ignored. I know you're absolutely desperate for me to conform to what you think my opinion is, so you can get on your soapbox, but try reading rather than imagining. | |||
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" Could you explain further? Or someone else provide clarity? Sex is what is between your legs. Gender is what is between your ears. Basically. What a crock of shit, so if I think I’m a plant, I’m a plant? Irrespective of if I am actually a plant? Coming up with silly analogies doesn't help anyone. Thinking you are a different gender to your biological sex is nothing at all like thinking you are an entirely different kind of being. Feel free to answer my MMA question I'm not really very interested, to be honest. So long as the matches they set up are fair in terms of relatively equal weight, strength and skill and all that, cool. How many trans MMA fighters are there? This isn't an issue that affects the vast vast majority of trans people, and picking on it in order to try and find an area of controversy doesn't seem helpful. Sex and gender are complicated and there aren't going to be easy answers sometimes. Typical dodge like the others on the thread. You love gender theory until it starts enabling men to knock women out legally. Your response is typically immature and poorly thought through. Men and women of the same weight will not have the same strength, on average. MMA is one of only 3 sports women can make a professional career. So it's important to them if their careers get derailed by a man beating the fuck out of them. This is why left wing policies always fall victim to the law of unintended consequences. " Don’t all policies have anomalies? Seems a bit silly to suggest it’s only left wing ones. | |||
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" Could you explain further? Or someone else provide clarity? Sex is what is between your legs. Gender is what is between your ears. Basically. What a crock of shit, so if I think I’m a plant, I’m a plant? Irrespective of if I am actually a plant? Coming up with silly analogies doesn't help anyone. Thinking you are a different gender to your biological sex is nothing at all like thinking you are an entirely different kind of being. Feel free to answer my MMA question I'm not really very interested, to be honest. So long as the matches they set up are fair in terms of relatively equal weight, strength and skill and all that, cool. How many trans MMA fighters are there? This isn't an issue that affects the vast vast majority of trans people, and picking on it in order to try and find an area of controversy doesn't seem helpful. Sex and gender are complicated and there aren't going to be easy answers sometimes. Typical dodge like the others on the thread. You love gender theory until it starts enabling men to knock women out legally. Your response is typically immature and poorly thought through. Men and women of the same weight will not have the same strength, on average. MMA is one of only 3 sports women can make a professional career. So it's important to them if their careers get derailed by a man beating the fuck out of them. This is why left wing policies always fall victim to the law of unintended consequences. I explicitly said that I would want MMA fights to be fair. I even mentioned strength as one of the factors in deciding that, which you ignored. I know you're absolutely desperate for me to conform to what you think my opinion is, so you can get on your soapbox, but try reading rather than imagining. " I have to agree, BB - you’re cherry picking. | |||
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"I imagine in a few years time, all those people who from a very early age believed that they were dinosaurs or super hero's will be proud of their new status within society. "Yah, i always knew deep down i was a Tyrannosaurus Rex, so that's why i need my own changing room, and er, if you don't agree it's a hate crime, so....." It must be hard being a dinosaur, Clem. I feel for you. " I'm actually supergirl. And if you don't agree it's a hate crime. Fact. Now come and suck my super-clit.... | |||
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"I imagine in a few years time, all those people who from a very early age believed that they were dinosaurs or super hero's will be proud of their new status within society. "Yah, i always knew deep down i was a Tyrannosaurus Rex, so that's why i need my own changing room, and er, if you don't agree it's a hate crime, so....." It must be hard being a dinosaur, Clem. I feel for you. I'm actually supergirl. And if you don't agree it's a hate crime. Fact. Now come and suck my super-clit...." I liked the dinosaur analogy more, it worked for my joke. | |||
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" Could you explain further? Or someone else provide clarity? Sex is what is between your legs. Gender is what is between your ears. Basically. What a crock of shit, so if I think I’m a plant, I’m a plant? Irrespective of if I am actually a plant? Show us your stalk and i'll tell you." Maybe I should chop my leaf off, what would I be then? Or does it depend on how I feel? | |||
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" Could you explain further? Or someone else provide clarity? Sex is what is between your legs. Gender is what is between your ears. Basically." That’s is absolutely correct. Point I made in the first thread was. Gender isn’t binary, and your genitalia don’t define your gender.
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"No. But I respect their belief that they believe they're the sex they have chosen to be To the detriment of "real" women? I'm not so sure about that. It could be said that everyone's presence on earth is to the detriment of somebody else. I'm not sure how my existence damages other women but if I do then I'm sorry, I never meant to cause harm. I doubt I'll get an apology from everyone who ever gained advantage over me for whatever reason but,I wouldn't really expect to. But would you put yourself in a position to take advantage? I don't think you would. Some guys are very devious. Of course I would put myself in position to take advantage...if run to be front of a queue. Id big myself up to get a job. Same as anyone would...every queue I've led, every job I've got means someone else has come second That's just life but I don't see how by just existing,I am damaging womankind (any more than I am damaging mankind..or the environment). I can't help it,I'm just here like everyone else. So would you take up a sport to take advantage? I suppose if I were to take up a sport,I would do all I could,short of cheating, to be the best I could. Incidentally I have,in younger days, competed in sports with varying degrees of success. Including getting my ass whipped by a 14 yr old girl at judo and watching my 5ft tall,feather light friend outrun,out climb and out weight train me every time. I really dont believe chromosomes or hormones made a great deal of difference. Any alleged advantages that im supposed to have had never manifested themselves. (I'm quite good at reversing vehicles though,not sure that proves anything but you can use it if you like). So you don’t believe chromosomes or hormones made any difference, because you have made the smallest comparison of one person verses a handful and have made a big blanket decision based on the smallest sample experiment ever. Yet you bemoan other people making blanket statements because they don’t agree with you? " I stated way back that I only speak for myself. | |||
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"Personally I couldn't care what gender somebody proclaims themself to be. I'm a long haired stoner gamer chef and artist, i don't introduce myself as a man i just am. But I did hear a point of view that kinda stuck with me.. If you can swap gender then why can't you swap species? You can't because you can never truly understand what it's like to be that other species. If i say im a duck i have no reference for what being a duck is in the same way a trans person can never truly understand what it is to be the other gender they understand what it is to be unhappy with thier gender but by having the therapy and the operation the gender fairy doesnt make you swap you are just a man living as they perceive a woman lives. Does that make it wrong not in the slightest but biology exists for a reason and scientific fact is the only true facts we have in this world." Actually facts are simply theories until disproved. Of course the longer a theory remains, the more it seems factual. The theory of god(s) existing is interesting because science cannot prove or disprove it at this present moment in time. | |||
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"How do you feel like a sex? I've been trying to work out what it feels like to be a woman, and I've come up with nothing, except I have painful boobs and I'm aware of my vagina. That's my issue with the ideology. I have no sense of being male other than via my physical body. I therefore cannot accept that everyone has a gender identity separate from their physicality. Can you expand/clarify what you mean by your last line, please? As I understand Trans theory is that everyone has a gender identity which is someone separate from their physical sex. The theory goes that if your gender identity is congruent with your physical sex then you are cis gender. I deny that I have a gender identity separate from my physical sex and thus deny the theory that everyone has this gender identity. By extension I also don't accept the cis label applying to me. Are you by extrapolation denying that another might have a gender identity separate from their sex classification where the two are at odds? I’m just trying to grasp if you’re saying (sorry if I’m not following) that you’d disagree that someone born with a male assigned body at birth, could be female as their gender identification? Regardless of whether you respect their right to present and self identify as they want, you’d not believe them..? Some people say they have a strong feeling of gender identity which is separate from their physicality. I have no reason to disbelieve them when they say they have that feeling. The crucial point though is that all that is proof of is that they have this feeling. Their having the feeling says nothing about the nature of external reality. So...I’m following, what are you saying? That we should take no notice? In terms of no recognition where it comes into play - leading up to the MMA question?" I think the best analogy is with religion. Some people feel strongly they have a personal relationship with God. I happen to feel that, as a matter of fact, they are incorrect because God doesn't exist. However, I don't deny they have the feeling and I believe strongly they have a right to express that feeling in company with like minded people as long as. - and this is the crucial point. - it doesn't impact negatively on others. Also, people who believe in a particular theology, whether it be about God, gender or whatever have no right to insist everyone else has to adhere to their theology. | |||
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" Could you explain further? Or someone else provide clarity? Sex is what is between your legs. Gender is what is between your ears. Basically. What a crock of shit, so if I think I’m a plant, I’m a plant? Irrespective of if I am actually a plant? Coming up with silly analogies doesn't help anyone. Thinking you are a different gender to your biological sex is nothing at all like thinking you are an entirely different kind of being. Feel free to answer my MMA question I'm not really very interested, to be honest. So long as the matches they set up are fair in terms of relatively equal weight, strength and skill and all that, cool. How many trans MMA fighters are there? This isn't an issue that affects the vast vast majority of trans people, and picking on it in order to try and find an area of controversy doesn't seem helpful. Sex and gender are complicated and there aren't going to be easy answers sometimes. Typical dodge like the others on the thread. You love gender theory until it starts enabling men to knock women out legally. Your response is typically immature and poorly thought through. Men and women of the same weight will not have the same strength, on average. MMA is one of only 3 sports women can make a professional career. So it's important to them if their careers get derailed by a man beating the fuck out of them. This is why left wing policies always fall victim to the law of unintended consequences. I explicitly said that I would want MMA fights to be fair. I even mentioned strength as one of the factors in deciding that, which you ignored. I know you're absolutely desperate for me to conform to what you think my opinion is, so you can get on your soapbox, but try reading rather than imagining. " They can never be fair, that's the whole problem. Men and women are biologically different and men are significantly stronger, on average. They have different skeletons that facilitate brute strength, which is exactly how Fallon Fox wins fights. As usual, you confidently proclaim your answer to a question and you haven't thought through the real consequences. Although everyone else who thinks it's all about feelings has dodged the question, so thank you for at least answering. | |||
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"Yes. But it doesnt matter what i think, its what they think and feel that matters. If they're meeting men who may want to marry and have kids of their own, what potential partners think matter surely! Men want to get laid. They may, or may not, want to marry and/or procreate.." I wasn't referring to Fab exclusively, I was taking a broader view. | |||
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I'm half black and I don't really identify as black at all.
I grew up in a white family.
People see me as black - that's OK - I'm not going to tell people what to think.
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" Could you explain further? Or someone else provide clarity? Sex is what is between your legs. Gender is what is between your ears. Basically. What a crock of shit, so if I think I’m a plant, I’m a plant? Irrespective of if I am actually a plant? Coming up with silly analogies doesn't help anyone. Thinking you are a different gender to your biological sex is nothing at all like thinking you are an entirely different kind of being. Feel free to answer my MMA question I'm not really very interested, to be honest. So long as the matches they set up are fair in terms of relatively equal weight, strength and skill and all that, cool. How many trans MMA fighters are there? This isn't an issue that affects the vast vast majority of trans people, and picking on it in order to try and find an area of controversy doesn't seem helpful. Sex and gender are complicated and there aren't going to be easy answers sometimes. Typical dodge like the others on the thread. You love gender theory until it starts enabling men to knock women out legally. Your response is typically immature and poorly thought through. Men and women of the same weight will not have the same strength, on average. MMA is one of only 3 sports women can make a professional career. So it's important to them if their careers get derailed by a man beating the fuck out of them. This is why left wing policies always fall victim to the law of unintended consequences. I explicitly said that I would want MMA fights to be fair. I even mentioned strength as one of the factors in deciding that, which you ignored. I know you're absolutely desperate for me to conform to what you think my opinion is, so you can get on your soapbox, but try reading rather than imagining. I have to agree, BB - you’re cherry picking. " Really? So why do we have a womens division to start with. MMA is already segregated by weight, which means that the fighters who fight are all similar sizes. Why do you think the women's division exists if you could get a fair fight between a 70kg man and a 70kg woman? | |||
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"Yes. But it doesnt matter what i think, its what they think and feel that matters. If they're meeting men who may want to marry and have kids of their own, what potential partners think matter surely! The question wasnt about getting married and having children thou." As mentioned, I was taking a broader view, especially to your it's what they think. As an aside and rhetorically: outside of fab, at what point do you tell someone your intimate with your transgender? | |||
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"Like many others have said - what I think is irrelevant to how people choose to live their lives! I'm shocked at how many people especially in the swinging community feel the need to tell others how to think and feel and live their lives
I'm half black and I don't really identify as black at all.
I grew up in a white family.
People see me as black - that's OK - I'm not going to tell people what to think.
"We were asked what we thought, not what we think they should call themselves. | |||
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" Could you explain further? Or someone else provide clarity? Sex is what is between your legs. Gender is what is between your ears. Basically. What a crock of shit, so if I think I’m a plant, I’m a plant? Irrespective of if I am actually a plant? Coming up with silly analogies doesn't help anyone. Thinking you are a different gender to your biological sex is nothing at all like thinking you are an entirely different kind of being. Feel free to answer my MMA question I'm not really very interested, to be honest. So long as the matches they set up are fair in terms of relatively equal weight, strength and skill and all that, cool. How many trans MMA fighters are there? This isn't an issue that affects the vast vast majority of trans people, and picking on it in order to try and find an area of controversy doesn't seem helpful. Sex and gender are complicated and there aren't going to be easy answers sometimes. Typical dodge like the others on the thread. You love gender theory until it starts enabling men to knock women out legally. Your response is typically immature and poorly thought through. Men and women of the same weight will not have the same strength, on average. MMA is one of only 3 sports women can make a professional career. So it's important to them if their careers get derailed by a man beating the fuck out of them. This is why left wing policies always fall victim to the law of unintended consequences. I explicitly said that I would want MMA fights to be fair. I even mentioned strength as one of the factors in deciding that, which you ignored. I know you're absolutely desperate for me to conform to what you think my opinion is, so you can get on your soapbox, but try reading rather than imagining. They can never be fair, that's the whole problem. Men and women are biologically different and men are significantly stronger, on average. They have different skeletons that facilitate brute strength, which is exactly how Fallon Fox wins fights. As usual, you confidently proclaim your answer to a question and you haven't thought through the real consequences. Although everyone else who thinks it's all about feelings has dodged the question, so thank you for at least answering. " I don't know if there are veteran categories in MMA but if there was and I was competing in it, I would be somewhat pissed off if they let in a 25 year old because he had a strong internal feeling he was 50. The whole point about categories in sport, whether they be based on age, sex, weight or whatever is that they are objective, otherwise there's no point to them. | |||
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"Like many others have said - what I think is irrelevant to how people choose to live their lives! I'm shocked at how many people especially in the swinging community feel the need to tell others how to think and feel and live their lives
I'm half black and I don't really identify as black at all.
I grew up in a white family.
People see me as black - that's OK - I'm not going to tell people what to think.
"
Your post got me thinking about the "one drop of blood" rule that some American states used until quite recently, and how it relates to some of the rigid thinking being displayed here.
Inter-racial marriage, even inter-racial sex, was a crime in some states.
It was still prohibited in 16 states when a landmark court case in 1967 deemed it unconstitutional.
The law was written in a black-and-white fashion, if you'll pardon the pun, which left people of mixed race in a legal limbo.
The "one drop of blood rule was brought in" - a single black ancestor made a person black in the eyes of the law.
That person was prohibited by law from fornication with a white person.
i'm not talking about the middle ages - this was the middle of the 20th century.
in the United States of America.
An abhorrent, racist culture that still permeates today.
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"Like many others have said - what I think is irrelevant to how people choose to live their lives! I'm shocked at how many people especially in the swinging community feel the need to tell others how to think and feel and live their lives
I'm half black and I don't really identify as black at all.
I grew up in a white family.
People see me as black - that's OK - I'm not going to tell people what to think.
We were asked what we thought, not what we think they should call themselves. "Like I said what I think is irrelevant. | |||
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" Could you explain further? Or someone else provide clarity? Sex is what is between your legs. Gender is what is between your ears. Basically. What a crock of shit, so if I think I’m a plant, I’m a plant? Irrespective of if I am actually a plant? Coming up with silly analogies doesn't help anyone. Thinking you are a different gender to your biological sex is nothing at all like thinking you are an entirely different kind of being. Feel free to answer my MMA question I'm not really very interested, to be honest. So long as the matches they set up are fair in terms of relatively equal weight, strength and skill and all that, cool. How many trans MMA fighters are there? This isn't an issue that affects the vast vast majority of trans people, and picking on it in order to try and find an area of controversy doesn't seem helpful. Sex and gender are complicated and there aren't going to be easy answers sometimes. Typical dodge like the others on the thread. You love gender theory until it starts enabling men to knock women out legally. Your response is typically immature and poorly thought through. Men and women of the same weight will not have the same strength, on average. MMA is one of only 3 sports women can make a professional career. So it's important to them if their careers get derailed by a man beating the fuck out of them. This is why left wing policies always fall victim to the law of unintended consequences. I explicitly said that I would want MMA fights to be fair. I even mentioned strength as one of the factors in deciding that, which you ignored. I know you're absolutely desperate for me to conform to what you think my opinion is, so you can get on your soapbox, but try reading rather than imagining. They can never be fair, that's the whole problem. Men and women are biologically different and men are significantly stronger, on average. They have different skeletons that facilitate brute strength, which is exactly how Fallon Fox wins fights. As usual, you confidently proclaim your answer to a question and you haven't thought through the real consequences. Although everyone else who thinks it's all about feelings has dodged the question, so thank you for at least answering. I don't know if there are veteran categories in MMA but if there was and I was competing in it, I would be somewhat pissed off if they let in a 25 year old because he had a strong internal feeling he was 50. The whole point about categories in sport, whether they be based on age, sex, weight or whatever is that they are objective, otherwise there's no point to them. " There was another ridiclious example where a girl was transitioning to a boy and so was taking lots of testosterone. They were a wrestler and wanted to compete in the boys division. But they were forced to compete in the girls division, despite being pumped full of a PED. The crowd booed the crap of it, which wasn't fair on the individal. Why is it so hard for ideologues to admit basic facts of biology? | |||
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"So what do u do in the meantime? Live in some kind of weird limbo of confusion because you can’t disprove something? Or do u say that beyond reasonable doubt this is true or what I agree with and go with it? " Did people live in confusion when they believed the world was flat? | |||
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"So what do u do in the meantime? Live in some kind of weird limbo of confusion because you can’t disprove something? Or do u say that beyond reasonable doubt this is true or what I agree with and go with it? Did people live in confusion when they believed the world was flat?" A lot still do. Weirdos | |||
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" Could you explain further? Or someone else provide clarity? Sex is what is between your legs. Gender is what is between your ears. Basically. What a crock of shit, so if I think I’m a plant, I’m a plant? Irrespective of if I am actually a plant? Coming up with silly analogies doesn't help anyone. Thinking you are a different gender to your biological sex is nothing at all like thinking you are an entirely different kind of being. Feel free to answer my MMA question I'm not really very interested, to be honest. So long as the matches they set up are fair in terms of relatively equal weight, strength and skill and all that, cool. How many trans MMA fighters are there? This isn't an issue that affects the vast vast majority of trans people, and picking on it in order to try and find an area of controversy doesn't seem helpful. Sex and gender are complicated and there aren't going to be easy answers sometimes. Typical dodge like the others on the thread. You love gender theory until it starts enabling men to knock women out legally. Your response is typically immature and poorly thought through. Men and women of the same weight will not have the same strength, on average. MMA is one of only 3 sports women can make a professional career. So it's important to them if their careers get derailed by a man beating the fuck out of them. This is why left wing policies always fall victim to the law of unintended consequences. I explicitly said that I would want MMA fights to be fair. I even mentioned strength as one of the factors in deciding that, which you ignored. I know you're absolutely desperate for me to conform to what you think my opinion is, so you can get on your soapbox, but try reading rather than imagining. They can never be fair, that's the whole problem. Men and women are biologically different and men are significantly stronger, on average. They have different skeletons that facilitate brute strength, which is exactly how Fallon Fox wins fights. As usual, you confidently proclaim your answer to a question and you haven't thought through the real consequences. Although everyone else who thinks it's all about feelings has dodged the question, so thank you for at least answering. I don't know if there are veteran categories in MMA but if there was and I was competing in it, I would be somewhat pissed off if they let in a 25 year old because he had a strong internal feeling he was 50. The whole point about categories in sport, whether they be based on age, sex, weight or whatever is that they are objective, otherwise there's no point to them. There was another ridiclious example where a girl was transitioning to a boy and so was taking lots of testosterone. They were a wrestler and wanted to compete in the boys division. But they were forced to compete in the girls division, despite being pumped full of a PED. The crowd booed the crap of it, which wasn't fair on the individal. Why is it so hard for ideologues to admit basic facts of biology? " As I say it's theological or philosophical idealism if you like. If your view is that reality is fundamentally something in people's brains as opposed to objective and external you deny physical reality when it conflicts with the ideology. Religion has exactly the same psychological mechanism. | |||
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"Yes. But it doesnt matter what i think, its what they think and feel that matters. If they're meeting men who may want to marry and have kids of their own, what potential partners think matter surely! Ezakley
So I’m less of a woman because I never wanted to reproduce? "Sigh...What is wrong with people? Are we all so precious we get offended and want to start an argument or twist things?
I could care less what anyone thinks they are. If I met someone new, male or female and we became friends I could care less and see it as totally irrelevant if their gender was different at birth.
However, if I was looking for a relationship I would want to know. Just as I would about anything that would affect me.
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"How do you feel like a sex? I've been trying to work out what it feels like to be a woman, and I've come up with nothing, except I have painful boobs and I'm aware of my vagina. That's my issue with the ideology. I have no sense of being male other than via my physical body. I therefore cannot accept that everyone has a gender identity separate from their physicality. Can you expand/clarify what you mean by your last line, please? As I understand Trans theory is that everyone has a gender identity which is someone separate from their physical sex. The theory goes that if your gender identity is congruent with your physical sex then you are cis gender. I deny that I have a gender identity separate from my physical sex and thus deny the theory that everyone has this gender identity. By extension I also don't accept the cis label applying to me. Are you by extrapolation denying that another might have a gender identity separate from their sex classification where the two are at odds? I’m just trying to grasp if you’re saying (sorry if I’m not following) that you’d disagree that someone born with a male assigned body at birth, could be female as their gender identification? Regardless of whether you respect their right to present and self identify as they want, you’d not believe them..? Some people say they have a strong feeling of gender identity which is separate from their physicality. I have no reason to disbelieve them when they say they have that feeling. The crucial point though is that all that is proof of is that they have this feeling. Their having the feeling says nothing about the nature of external reality. So...I’m following, what are you saying? That we should take no notice? In terms of no recognition where it comes into play - leading up to the MMA question? I think the best analogy is with religion. Some people feel strongly they have a personal relationship with God. I happen to feel that, as a matter of fact, they are incorrect because God doesn't exist. However, I don't deny they have the feeling and I believe strongly they have a right to express that feeling in company with like minded people as long as. - and this is the crucial point. - it doesn't impact negatively on others. Also, people who believe in a particular theology, whether it be about God, gender or whatever have no right to insist everyone else has to adhere to their theology. " Thank you. That explains beautifully your point. I really appreciate that and I understand what you’re saying. I want to sit with this and think. I logically agree, and yet something feels conflicted for me. Thanks again. | |||
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"Like many others have said - what I think is irrelevant to how people choose to live their lives! I'm shocked at how many people especially in the swinging community feel the need to tell others how to think and feel and live their lives
I'm half black and I don't really identify as black at all.
I grew up in a white family.
People see me as black - that's OK - I'm not going to tell people what to think.
We were asked what we thought, not what we think they should call themselves.
Like I said what I think is irrelevant."If it is you wouldn't have given your thoughts. Some people read others' opinions to get an idea of differing opinions; which is why we have debates. Some questions don't have conclusions other than we all have differing opinions, but they are still good to talk about. Some people change their mind too, after listening to a different opinion. | |||
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"How do you feel like a sex? I've been trying to work out what it feels like to be a woman, and I've come up with nothing, except I have painful boobs and I'm aware of my vagina. That's my issue with the ideology. I have no sense of being male other than via my physical body. I therefore cannot accept that everyone has a gender identity separate from their physicality. Can you expand/clarify what you mean by your last line, please? As I understand Trans theory is that everyone has a gender identity which is someone separate from their physical sex. The theory goes that if your gender identity is congruent with your physical sex then you are cis gender. I deny that I have a gender identity separate from my physical sex and thus deny the theory that everyone has this gender identity. By extension I also don't accept the cis label applying to me. Are you by extrapolation denying that another might have a gender identity separate from their sex classification where the two are at odds? I’m just trying to grasp if you’re saying (sorry if I’m not following) that you’d disagree that someone born with a male assigned body at birth, could be female as their gender identification? Regardless of whether you respect their right to present and self identify as they want, you’d not believe them..? Some people say they have a strong feeling of gender identity which is separate from their physicality. I have no reason to disbelieve them when they say they have that feeling. The crucial point though is that all that is proof of is that they have this feeling. Their having the feeling says nothing about the nature of external reality. So...I’m following, what are you saying? That we should take no notice? In terms of no recognition where it comes into play - leading up to the MMA question? I think the best analogy is with religion. Some people feel strongly they have a personal relationship with God. I happen to feel that, as a matter of fact, they are incorrect because God doesn't exist. However, I don't deny they have the feeling and I believe strongly they have a right to express that feeling in company with like minded people as long as. - and this is the crucial point. - it doesn't impact negatively on others. Also, people who believe in a particular theology, whether it be about God, gender or whatever have no right to insist everyone else has to adhere to their theology. Thank you. That explains beautifully your point. I really appreciate that and I understand what you’re saying. I want to sit with this and think. I logically agree, and yet something feels conflicted for me. Thanks again. " As I say, there is a respectable left wing argument that says that gender identity ideology is reactionary and regressive and just entrenches stereo types about gender that the left has always thought against. Everyone should be free to express their personalities in any way they like and not be constrained by corsets of gender. In other words we should abolish gender not reify it. | |||
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" Could you explain further? Or someone else provide clarity? Sex is what is between your legs. Gender is what is between your ears. Basically. What a crock of shit, so if I think I’m a plant, I’m a plant? Irrespective of if I am actually a plant? Coming up with silly analogies doesn't help anyone. Thinking you are a different gender to your biological sex is nothing at all like thinking you are an entirely different kind of being. Feel free to answer my MMA question I'm not really very interested, to be honest. So long as the matches they set up are fair in terms of relatively equal weight, strength and skill and all that, cool. How many trans MMA fighters are there? This isn't an issue that affects the vast vast majority of trans people, and picking on it in order to try and find an area of controversy doesn't seem helpful. Sex and gender are complicated and there aren't going to be easy answers sometimes. Typical dodge like the others on the thread. You love gender theory until it starts enabling men to knock women out legally. Your response is typically immature and poorly thought through. Men and women of the same weight will not have the same strength, on average. MMA is one of only 3 sports women can make a professional career. So it's important to them if their careers get derailed by a man beating the fuck out of them. This is why left wing policies always fall victim to the law of unintended consequences. I explicitly said that I would want MMA fights to be fair. I even mentioned strength as one of the factors in deciding that, which you ignored. I know you're absolutely desperate for me to conform to what you think my opinion is, so you can get on your soapbox, but try reading rather than imagining. I have to agree, BB - you’re cherry picking. Really? So why do we have a womens division to start with. MMA is already segregated by weight, which means that the fighters who fight are all similar sizes. Why do you think the women's division exists if you could get a fair fight between a 70kg man and a 70kg woman? " I meant in that specific comment and dismissal of his point. Your response comment thereafter I liked, and the acknowledgment he answered too. I haven’t answered as I don’t really know and I see the issues you’re explaining. It still doesn’t negate my acceptance of someone’s right to present in the gender they self identify. But, I take KLP and your points and am still thinking more about the prison example last night. | |||
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" Could you explain further? Or someone else provide clarity? Sex is what is between your legs. Gender is what is between your ears. Basically. What a crock of shit, so if I think I’m a plant, I’m a plant? Irrespective of if I am actually a plant? Coming up with silly analogies doesn't help anyone. Thinking you are a different gender to your biological sex is nothing at all like thinking you are an entirely different kind of being. Feel free to answer my MMA question I'm not really very interested, to be honest. So long as the matches they set up are fair in terms of relatively equal weight, strength and skill and all that, cool. How many trans MMA fighters are there? This isn't an issue that affects the vast vast majority of trans people, and picking on it in order to try and find an area of controversy doesn't seem helpful. Sex and gender are complicated and there aren't going to be easy answers sometimes. Typical dodge like the others on the thread. You love gender theory until it starts enabling men to knock women out legally. Your response is typically immature and poorly thought through. Men and women of the same weight will not have the same strength, on average. MMA is one of only 3 sports women can make a professional career. So it's important to them if their careers get derailed by a man beating the fuck out of them. This is why left wing policies always fall victim to the law of unintended consequences. I explicitly said that I would want MMA fights to be fair. I even mentioned strength as one of the factors in deciding that, which you ignored. I know you're absolutely desperate for me to conform to what you think my opinion is, so you can get on your soapbox, but try reading rather than imagining. They can never be fair, that's the whole problem. Men and women are biologically different and men are significantly stronger, on average. They have different skeletons that facilitate brute strength, which is exactly how Fallon Fox wins fights. As usual, you confidently proclaim your answer to a question and you haven't thought through the real consequences. Although everyone else who thinks it's all about feelings has dodged the question, so thank you for at least answering. " As usual, you confidently proclaim your opinions as if you're a mind reader, generalise, and draw conclusions for which you have no basis. I don't know enough about MMA to say if there can be a fair fight between a trans woman and a cis woman or not. I'll leave that for the experts to decide. I do know that, as I said earlier, this issue has very little to do with the life of the majority of trans women. It is a point of sporting fairness, not a point towards the overall treatment of trans people. | |||
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"In other words we should abolish gender not reify it. " I agree, in a theoretical ideal world, but that's just not a practical goal for the one we live in. Gender is completely entrenched. We have to be pragmatic and work within the system we have, which means recognising that people will gravitate to gender roles/identities and sometimes those won't match their genitals. | |||
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"How do you feel like a sex? I've been trying to work out what it feels like to be a woman, and I've come up with nothing, except I have painful boobs and I'm aware of my vagina. That's my issue with the ideology. I have no sense of being male other than via my physical body. I therefore cannot accept that everyone has a gender identity separate from their physicality. Can you expand/clarify what you mean by your last line, please? As I understand Trans theory is that everyone has a gender identity which is someone separate from their physical sex. The theory goes that if your gender identity is congruent with your physical sex then you are cis gender. I deny that I have a gender identity separate from my physical sex and thus deny the theory that everyone has this gender identity. By extension I also don't accept the cis label applying to me. Are you by extrapolation denying that another might have a gender identity separate from their sex classification where the two are at odds? I’m just trying to grasp if you’re saying (sorry if I’m not following) that you’d disagree that someone born with a male assigned body at birth, could be female as their gender identification? Regardless of whether you respect their right to present and self identify as they want, you’d not believe them..? Some people say they have a strong feeling of gender identity which is separate from their physicality. I have no reason to disbelieve them when they say they have that feeling. The crucial point though is that all that is proof of is that they have this feeling. Their having the feeling says nothing about the nature of external reality. So...I’m following, what are you saying? That we should take no notice? In terms of no recognition where it comes into play - leading up to the MMA question? I think the best analogy is with religion. Some people feel strongly they have a personal relationship with God. I happen to feel that, as a matter of fact, they are incorrect because God doesn't exist. However, I don't deny they have the feeling and I believe strongly they have a right to express that feeling in company with like minded people as long as. - and this is the crucial point. - it doesn't impact negatively on others. Also, people who believe in a particular theology, whether it be about God, gender or whatever have no right to insist everyone else has to adhere to their theology. Thank you. That explains beautifully your point. I really appreciate that and I understand what you’re saying. I want to sit with this and think. I logically agree, and yet something feels conflicted for me. Thanks again. As I say, there is a respectable left wing argument that says that gender identity ideology is reactionary and regressive and just entrenches stereo types about gender that the left has always thought against. Everyone should be free to express their personalities in any way they like and not be constrained by corsets of gender. In other words we should abolish gender not reify it. " I still have a conflict between accepting gender dysmorphia and the distress, with the religious belief impact. But I’m also conscious I need to really think about this and as someone who runs through the minutiae to the nth degree in a risk assessment, my mind is scanning a million things right now and my overriding sensation is I need coffee. I like this. Me thinky now. | |||
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"So what do u do in the meantime? Live in some kind of weird limbo of confusion because you can’t disprove something? Or do u say that beyond reasonable doubt this is true or what I agree with and go with it? Did people live in confusion when they believed the world was flat?" They were pretty limited to be fair, but they believed the world was flat, they didn’t know any different and that’s the point | |||
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" Could you explain further? Or someone else provide clarity? Sex is what is between your legs. Gender is what is between your ears. Basically. What a crock of shit, so if I think I’m a plant, I’m a plant? Irrespective of if I am actually a plant? Coming up with silly analogies doesn't help anyone. Thinking you are a different gender to your biological sex is nothing at all like thinking you are an entirely different kind of being. Feel free to answer my MMA question I'm not really very interested, to be honest. So long as the matches they set up are fair in terms of relatively equal weight, strength and skill and all that, cool. How many trans MMA fighters are there? This isn't an issue that affects the vast vast majority of trans people, and picking on it in order to try and find an area of controversy doesn't seem helpful. Sex and gender are complicated and there aren't going to be easy answers sometimes. Typical dodge like the others on the thread. You love gender theory until it starts enabling men to knock women out legally. Your response is typically immature and poorly thought through. Men and women of the same weight will not have the same strength, on average. MMA is one of only 3 sports women can make a professional career. So it's important to them if their careers get derailed by a man beating the fuck out of them. This is why left wing policies always fall victim to the law of unintended consequences. I explicitly said that I would want MMA fights to be fair. I even mentioned strength as one of the factors in deciding that, which you ignored. I know you're absolutely desperate for me to conform to what you think my opinion is, so you can get on your soapbox, but try reading rather than imagining. They can never be fair, that's the whole problem. Men and women are biologically different and men are significantly stronger, on average. They have different skeletons that facilitate brute strength, which is exactly how Fallon Fox wins fights. As usual, you confidently proclaim your answer to a question and you haven't thought through the real consequences. Although everyone else who thinks it's all about feelings has dodged the question, so thank you for at least answering. As usual, you confidently proclaim your opinions as if you're a mind reader, generalise, and draw conclusions for which you have no basis. I don't know enough about MMA to say if there can be a fair fight between a trans woman and a cis woman or not. I'll leave that for the experts to decide. I do know that, as I said earlier, this issue has very little to do with the life of the majority of trans women. It is a point of sporting fairness, not a point towards the overall treatment of trans people. " I agree that it's a minor issue per se, but it highlights the incoherence at the heart of the ideology. The ideology says that what gender you are is a purely subjective decision. People who say they are women are women and it is oppressive to question that. However, in reality, everyone agrees that there are brute physical facts that make people with penises and people with vaginas different. On the whole, men at the peak of physical fitness are stronger than women at the peak of physical fitness. Hence why sports are divided by sex. If they weren't, the people with penises would always win. Thus, no one really thinks that anyone who says they are a woman should be able to compete in women's sporting events. There has to be some sort of objective test. Hence the incoherence of the subjective theory. | |||
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"In other words we should abolish gender not reify it. I agree, in a theoretical ideal world, but that's just not a practical goal for the one we live in. Gender is completely entrenched. We have to be pragmatic and work within the system we have, which means recognising that people will gravitate to gender roles/identities and sometimes those won't match their genitals. " I can't see that insisting that people should believe people with penises are women is any more impracticable than abolishing gender. | |||
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"In other words we should abolish gender not reify it. I agree, in a theoretical ideal world, but that's just not a practical goal for the one we live in. Gender is completely entrenched. We have to be pragmatic and work within the system we have, which means recognising that people will gravitate to gender roles/identities and sometimes those won't match their genitals. I can't see that insisting that people should believe people with penises are women is any more impracticable than abolishing gender. " Well, lots of people do believe it's possible to be a woman with a penis already, so there's that. What would the methodology of abolishing gender look like? | |||
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"In other words we should abolish gender not reify it. I agree, in a theoretical ideal world, but that's just not a practical goal for the one we live in. Gender is completely entrenched. We have to be pragmatic and work within the system we have, which means recognising that people will gravitate to gender roles/identities and sometimes those won't match their genitals. I can't see that insisting that people should believe people with penises are women is any more impracticable than abolishing gender. Well, lots of people do believe it's possible to be a woman with a penis already, so there's that. What would the methodology of abolishing gender look like? " I suspect more people believe that ones behaviour should not be constrained by gender roles. I do. | |||
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" Thus, no one really thinks that anyone who says they are a woman should be able to compete in women's sporting events. There has to be some sort of objective test. Hence the incoherence of the subjective theory. " Your post reminded me of Mokgadi Caster Semenya, the South African runner who won gold at the World and Olympic events but those sex, and entitlement to compete in women's events, was called into question. She was forced to undergo a gender test, which must have been a humiliating experience. Her treatment was appalling. I believe the athletics world has learned from it, though. The threshold for competition in women's events is now determined by levels of testosterone, I believe. | |||
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" I agree that it's a minor issue per se, but it highlights the incoherence at the heart of the ideology. The ideology says that what gender you are is a purely subjective decision. People who say they are women are women and it is oppressive to question that. However, in reality, everyone agrees that there are brute physical facts that make people with penises and people with vaginas different. On the whole, men at the peak of physical fitness are stronger than women at the peak of physical fitness. Hence why sports are divided by sex. If they weren't, the people with penises would always win. Thus, no one really thinks that anyone who says they are a woman should be able to compete in women's sporting events. There has to be some sort of objective test. Hence the incoherence of the subjective theory. " But that kind of incoherence (or exception) can be found in nearly all principles. I have an 'ideology' of not killing people. But I would do so in self defence, if I had to. This doesn't mean the overall ideology is wrong. So a principle of 'treat trans women as women, except for (the very rare) occasions in which there is direct and clear danger to others in doing so' seems entirely reasonable to me. | |||
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" I agree that it's a minor issue per se, but it highlights the incoherence at the heart of the ideology. The ideology says that what gender you are is a purely subjective decision. People who say they are women are women and it is oppressive to question that. However, in reality, everyone agrees that there are brute physical facts that make people with penises and people with vaginas different. On the whole, men at the peak of physical fitness are stronger than women at the peak of physical fitness. Hence why sports are divided by sex. If they weren't, the people with penises would always win. Thus, no one really thinks that anyone who says they are a woman should be able to compete in women's sporting events. There has to be some sort of objective test. Hence the incoherence of the subjective theory. But that kind of incoherence (or exception) can be found in nearly all principles. I have an 'ideology' of not killing people. But I would do so in self defence, if I had to. This doesn't mean the overall ideology is wrong. So a principle of 'treat trans women as women, except for (the very rare) occasions in which there is direct and clear danger to others in doing so' seems entirely reasonable to me. " Cool username! Quirky - I like it! 
As you were! | |||
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" Could you explain further? Or someone else provide clarity? Sex is what is between your legs. Gender is what is between your ears. Basically. What a crock of shit, so if I think I’m a plant, I’m a plant? Irrespective of if I am actually a plant? Coming up with silly analogies doesn't help anyone. Thinking you are a different gender to your biological sex is nothing at all like thinking you are an entirely different kind of being. Feel free to answer my MMA question I'm not really very interested, to be honest. So long as the matches they set up are fair in terms of relatively equal weight, strength and skill and all that, cool. How many trans MMA fighters are there? This isn't an issue that affects the vast vast majority of trans people, and picking on it in order to try and find an area of controversy doesn't seem helpful. Sex and gender are complicated and there aren't going to be easy answers sometimes. Typical dodge like the others on the thread. You love gender theory until it starts enabling men to knock women out legally. Your response is typically immature and poorly thought through. Men and women of the same weight will not have the same strength, on average. MMA is one of only 3 sports women can make a professional career. So it's important to them if their careers get derailed by a man beating the fuck out of them. This is why left wing policies always fall victim to the law of unintended consequences. I explicitly said that I would want MMA fights to be fair. I even mentioned strength as one of the factors in deciding that, which you ignored. I know you're absolutely desperate for me to conform to what you think my opinion is, so you can get on your soapbox, but try reading rather than imagining. They can never be fair, that's the whole problem. Men and women are biologically different and men are significantly stronger, on average. They have different skeletons that facilitate brute strength, which is exactly how Fallon Fox wins fights. As usual, you confidently proclaim your answer to a question and you haven't thought through the real consequences. Although everyone else who thinks it's all about feelings has dodged the question, so thank you for at least answering. As usual, you confidently proclaim your opinions as if you're a mind reader, generalise, and draw conclusions for which you have no basis. I don't know enough about MMA to say if there can be a fair fight between a trans woman and a cis woman or not. I'll leave that for the experts to decide. I do know that, as I said earlier, this issue has very little to do with the life of the majority of trans women. It is a point of sporting fairness, not a point towards the overall treatment of trans people. " It's irrelevant how many people it affects. I accept that gender and sex are different, but people have been using the terms interchangeably for a long time. So if we're going to seperate them, which i don't mind, by the way. Let's just be clear about which uses of woman were referring to sex and which were referring to gender. Furthermore, it is not decided by experts because unfortunately, sport and politics mix. So we have a situation where transwomen are literally beating the shit out of cisgendered women, using their strength advantage. Aside from the moral implications, this is denying cisgendered women the opportunity to peruse their chosen profession as MMA is one of the few professional sports women have. That is the inevitable conclusion of saying that the only thing that matters is how you feel. | |||
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"Follow on from last thread. Yes I believe that trans who have totally transformed are women But the likes of myself ...not a chance as I flit in and out of it...and walk like lLsley off benidorm
But having said that I would not want to sleep with one...just my preference "Not at all as i said yesterday if i was to say i no longer believe im a white guy anymore and got my skin darkened would that make me a black man no id be a white man with dark skin so i dont see a diference The fact that we have an ability as people to remove and alter sexual organs changes nothing A person with no legs is not half a person are they | |||
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" I agree that it's a minor issue per se, but it highlights the incoherence at the heart of the ideology. The ideology says that what gender you are is a purely subjective decision. People who say they are women are women and it is oppressive to question that. However, in reality, everyone agrees that there are brute physical facts that make people with penises and people with vaginas different. On the whole, men at the peak of physical fitness are stronger than women at the peak of physical fitness. Hence why sports are divided by sex. If they weren't, the people with penises would always win. Thus, no one really thinks that anyone who says they are a woman should be able to compete in women's sporting events. There has to be some sort of objective test. Hence the incoherence of the subjective theory. But that kind of incoherence (or exception) can be found in nearly all principles. I have an 'ideology' of not killing people. But I would do so in self defence, if I had to. This doesn't mean the overall ideology is wrong. So a principle of 'treat trans women as women, except for (the very rare) occasions in which there is direct and clear danger to others in doing so' seems entirely reasonable to me. " "in general (objectively defined) trans women should be treated as women except in certain specific circumstances " is a principle I would agree with. However, that's a very different statement from" trans women are women". | |||
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" Thus, no one really thinks that anyone who says they are a woman should be able to compete in women's sporting events. There has to be some sort of objective test. Hence the incoherence of the subjective theory. Your post reminded me of Mokgadi Caster Semenya, the South African runner who won gold at the World and Olympic events but those sex, and entitlement to compete in women's events, was called into question. She was forced to undergo a gender test, which must have been a humiliating experience. Her treatment was appalling. I believe the athletics world has learned from it, though. The threshold for competition in women's events is now determined by levels of testosterone, I believe. " And yet we know there are many advantages men have, other than testosterone (e.g. bone structure). I believe the person you mentioned was not trans, but they may have been intersex. | |||
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" Could you explain further? Or someone else provide clarity? Sex is what is between your legs. Gender is what is between your ears. Basically. What a crock of shit, so if I think I’m a plant, I’m a plant? Irrespective of if I am actually a plant? Coming up with silly analogies doesn't help anyone. Thinking you are a different gender to your biological sex is nothing at all like thinking you are an entirely different kind of being. Feel free to answer my MMA question I'm not really very interested, to be honest. So long as the matches they set up are fair in terms of relatively equal weight, strength and skill and all that, cool. How many trans MMA fighters are there? This isn't an issue that affects the vast vast majority of trans people, and picking on it in order to try and find an area of controversy doesn't seem helpful. Sex and gender are complicated and there aren't going to be easy answers sometimes. Typical dodge like the others on the thread. You love gender theory until it starts enabling men to knock women out legally. Your response is typically immature and poorly thought through. Men and women of the same weight will not have the same strength, on average. MMA is one of only 3 sports women can make a professional career. So it's important to them if their careers get derailed by a man beating the fuck out of them. This is why left wing policies always fall victim to the law of unintended consequences. I explicitly said that I would want MMA fights to be fair. I even mentioned strength as one of the factors in deciding that, which you ignored. I know you're absolutely desperate for me to conform to what you think my opinion is, so you can get on your soapbox, but try reading rather than imagining. They can never be fair, that's the whole problem. Men and women are biologically different and men are significantly stronger, on average. They have different skeletons that facilitate brute strength, which is exactly how Fallon Fox wins fights. As usual, you confidently proclaim your answer to a question and you haven't thought through the real consequences. Although everyone else who thinks it's all about feelings has dodged the question, so thank you for at least answering. As usual, you confidently proclaim your opinions as if you're a mind reader, generalise, and draw conclusions for which you have no basis. I don't know enough about MMA to say if there can be a fair fight between a trans woman and a cis woman or not. I'll leave that for the experts to decide. I do know that, as I said earlier, this issue has very little to do with the life of the majority of trans women. It is a point of sporting fairness, not a point towards the overall treatment of trans people. It's irrelevant how many people it affects. I accept that gender and sex are different, but people have been using the terms interchangeably for a long time. So if we're going to seperate them, which i don't mind, by the way. Let's just be clear about which uses of woman were referring to sex and which were referring to gender. Furthermore, it is not decided by experts because unfortunately, sport and politics mix. So we have a situation where transwomen are literally beating the shit out of cisgendered women, using their strength advantage. Aside from the moral implications, this is denying cisgendered women the opportunity to peruse their chosen profession as MMA is one of the few professional sports women have. That is the inevitable conclusion of saying that the only thing that matters is how you feel. " As I say no one really believes that. For example the government are not suggesting that a sex offender with a penis only as to sign a form saying he is a woman to get transferred to a woman's prison. | |||
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" Could you explain further? Or someone else provide clarity? Sex is what is between your legs. Gender is what is between your ears. Basically. What a crock of shit, so if I think I’m a plant, I’m a plant? Irrespective of if I am actually a plant? Coming up with silly analogies doesn't help anyone. Thinking you are a different gender to your biological sex is nothing at all like thinking you are an entirely different kind of being. Feel free to answer my MMA question I'm not really very interested, to be honest. So long as the matches they set up are fair in terms of relatively equal weight, strength and skill and all that, cool. How many trans MMA fighters are there? This isn't an issue that affects the vast vast majority of trans people, and picking on it in order to try and find an area of controversy doesn't seem helpful. Sex and gender are complicated and there aren't going to be easy answers sometimes. Typical dodge like the others on the thread. You love gender theory until it starts enabling men to knock women out legally. Your response is typically immature and poorly thought through. Men and women of the same weight will not have the same strength, on average. MMA is one of only 3 sports women can make a professional career. So it's important to them if their careers get derailed by a man beating the fuck out of them. This is why left wing policies always fall victim to the law of unintended consequences. I explicitly said that I would want MMA fights to be fair. I even mentioned strength as one of the factors in deciding that, which you ignored. I know you're absolutely desperate for me to conform to what you think my opinion is, so you can get on your soapbox, but try reading rather than imagining. They can never be fair, that's the whole problem. Men and women are biologically different and men are significantly stronger, on average. They have different skeletons that facilitate brute strength, which is exactly how Fallon Fox wins fights. As usual, you confidently proclaim your answer to a question and you haven't thought through the real consequences. Although everyone else who thinks it's all about feelings has dodged the question, so thank you for at least answering. As usual, you confidently proclaim your opinions as if you're a mind reader, generalise, and draw conclusions for which you have no basis. I don't know enough about MMA to say if there can be a fair fight between a trans woman and a cis woman or not. I'll leave that for the experts to decide. I do know that, as I said earlier, this issue has very little to do with the life of the majority of trans women. It is a point of sporting fairness, not a point towards the overall treatment of trans people. It's irrelevant how many people it affects. I accept that gender and sex are different, but people have been using the terms interchangeably for a long time. So if we're going to seperate them, which i don't mind, by the way. Let's just be clear about which uses of woman were referring to sex and which were referring to gender. Furthermore, it is not decided by experts because unfortunately, sport and politics mix. So we have a situation where transwomen are literally beating the shit out of cisgendered women, using their strength advantage. Aside from the moral implications, this is denying cisgendered women the opportunity to peruse their chosen profession as MMA is one of the few professional sports women have. That is the inevitable conclusion of saying that the only thing that matters is how you feel. " If there are unfair fights going on, they should be stopped. You're apparently really determined to have an argument about this, though, so how about you just do so in your mind, and save me the bother. | |||
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"Follow on from last thread. Yes I believe that trans who have totally transformed are women But the likes of myself ...not a chance as I flit in and out of it...and walk like lLsley off benidorm
But having said that I would not want to sleep with one...just my preference
Not at all as i said yesterday if i was to say i no longer believe im a white guy anymore and got my skin darkened would that make me a black man no id be a white man with dark skin so i dont see a diference
The fact that we have an ability as people to remove and alter sexual organs changes nothing
A person with no legs is not half a person are they
"At work we have two boxes for ethnicity, one as I define them and a self defined one. If the milky bar kid tells me he’s black african then I have to say he is in his self defined box, my box will say white. The worlds gone mad. | |||
Reply privately (closed, thread got too big) | |||
