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Efficacy of anti-depressants
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"It’s sad that so many people suffer from depression these days - worse when it’s in people so young. " Fascinating after this afternoons discussion. | |||
"It’s sad that so many people suffer from depression these days - worse when it’s in people so young. Fascinating after this afternoons discussion. " I wasn’t party to that - what are they saying that young people are depressed about (if they know)? | |||
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"It’s sad that so many people suffer from depression these days - worse when it’s in people so young. Fascinating after this afternoons discussion. I wasn’t party to that - what are they saying that young people are depressed about (if they know)? " Not that - just that most of the drugs being prescribed to the rapidly increasing number do NOT help. | |||
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"Nothing has ever been proven to be more effective than fresh air and exercise " Again, complete and utter bollocks | |||
"Nothing has ever been proven to be more effective than fresh air and exercise Again, complete and utter bollocks" Have you ever seen one seen it not be suggested as part of a management/treatment plan? | |||
"Nothing has ever been proven to be more effective than fresh air and exercise Again, complete and utter bollocks Have you ever seen one seen it not be suggested as part of a management/treatment plan? " as part of treatment yes, but to say it's always better is completely inaccurrate. | |||
"It’s sad that so many people suffer from depression these days - worse when it’s in people so young. Fascinating after this afternoons discussion. " What was the thread called? | |||
"Nothing has ever been proven to be more effective than fresh air and exercise " Gosh, and you’re a doctor too! | |||
"Nothing has ever been proven to be more effective than fresh air and exercise " For people who have severe depression? | |||
"It’s sad that so many people suffer from depression these days - worse when it’s in people so young. Fascinating after this afternoons discussion. What was the thread called?" Was called "depression". If you click on my green arrow it will be in top 3 or 4 threads i recently posted in today. | |||
"Nothing has ever been proven to be more effective than fresh air and exercise Gosh, and you’re a doctor too! " He says he is. I'm glad he wasn't my GP. | |||
"Nothing has ever been proven to be more effective than fresh air and exercise Again, complete and utter bollocks Have you ever seen one seen it not be suggested as part of a management/treatment plan? " I don't disagree it helps but it is not a cure or a preventative method. I get loads of fresh air walking the dogs and out with kids, I train for strongman so get plenty of exercise and my diet is on point. I still need medication. | |||
"Nothing has ever been proven to be more effective than fresh air and exercise Again, complete and utter bollocks Have you ever seen one seen it not be suggested as part of a management/treatment plan? " I have. My own. | |||
"Nothing has ever been proven to be more effective than fresh air and exercise Again, complete and utter bollocks Have you ever seen one seen it not be suggested as part of a management/treatment plan? I don't disagree it helps but it is not a cure or a preventative method. I get loads of fresh air walking the dogs and out with kids, I train for strongman so get plenty of exercise and my diet is on point. I still need medication. " Doesn't help me. In bright sunlight I can burst into tears for no reason. I walk every day for an hour at least. I'm the sad lady who walks through the park in the evening. | |||
"Nothing has ever been proven to be more effective than fresh air and exercise Gosh, and you’re a doctor too! He says he is. I'm glad he wasn't my GP." I know, right. Actually, from what he says, I’m pretty doubtful that he is. No Dr can be that close minded and I’ve worked with some awful doctors. | |||
"It’s sad that so many people suffer from depression these days - worse when it’s in people so young. " This could cause controversy, but is it a case that life is too easy for them? Expectations too high? They expect every comfort handed to them yet within living memory kids lived through cycling to school, 3 or 4 tv channels and shock horror a phone only if you had 10p. Reality check, let kids be kids not adults with university and career sorted by the age of 5. | |||
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"There were some decent distinctions on the other thread such as feeling depressed in reaction to an event(s) vrs no particular reason. The latter is what anti-depressants would actually help with. I would be willing to bet good money that the vast majority of those teenagers would not benefit from anti-depressants because the simple fact is that true depression is rare and being a teenager is actually shit. Adults like to look at teenage years with rose tinted glasses, let's be honest - it's shit. Most these teenagers are not depressed, they are just fed up with having fuck all autonomy over their lives, low status and low income. That is not something anti-depressants can cure. " Precisely Also grown up not actually having to cope with anything within an over protective state which would rather medicalise a problem than ask people to consider their own contribution/responsibility. | |||
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"My nan thinks it's because children are mollycoddled these days and don't have the survival instincts, coping mechanisms and 'balls' that she had growing up.... She feels this very strongly!! " I think it's more nuanced than that. Most developed countries encourage extremely prolonged education periods to avoid flooding the workforce with unskilled labour (not an inherently bad idea). But education requires a low autonomy environment for the students. For most of human history, living past 45 was the exception rather than the norm and now it's not uncommon to be in education until ~22 years old. Our brains aren't really wired to deal with that. By about ~12, most boys are ready to go out and hunt a reasonably large animal. Yet today they'd have another year before they could even select their GCSE subjects! I don't think kids these days have less balls or smaller balls, they just aren't incentivised to use their 'balls'. | |||
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"Nothing has ever been proven to be more effective than fresh air and exercise " People were saying that on other earlier digression thread. Often when people are depressed they can't face going out or exercising. It's never as simple as that. | |||
"There were some decent distinctions on the other thread such as feeling depressed in reaction to an event(s) vrs no particular reason. The latter is what anti-depressants would actually help with. I would be willing to bet good money that the vast majority of those teenagers would not benefit from anti-depressants because the simple fact is that true depression is rare and being a teenager is actually shit. Adults like to look at teenage years with rose tinted glasses, let's be honest - it's shit. Most these teenagers are not depressed, they are just fed up with having fuck all autonomy over their lives, low status and low income. That is not something anti-depressants can cure. " True depression isn't rare at all. | |||
"There were some decent distinctions on the other thread such as feeling depressed in reaction to an event(s) vrs no particular reason. The latter is what anti-depressants would actually help with. I would be willing to bet good money that the vast majority of those teenagers would not benefit from anti-depressants because the simple fact is that true depression is rare and being a teenager is actually shit. Adults like to look at teenage years with rose tinted glasses, let's be honest - it's shit. Most these teenagers are not depressed, they are just fed up with having fuck all autonomy over their lives, low status and low income. That is not something anti-depressants can cure. True depression isn't rare at all. " Of course it is. People with actual chemical imbalances in their body that can be improved with anti-depressants. About 3% of the population. Of course certain groups profit from pretending the figure is much higher. | |||
"Nothing has ever been proven to be more effective than fresh air and exercise Again, complete and utter bollocks" True in most cases | |||
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"There were some decent distinctions on the other thread such as feeling depressed in reaction to an event(s) vrs no particular reason. The latter is what anti-depressants would actually help with. I would be willing to bet good money that the vast majority of those teenagers would not benefit from anti-depressants because the simple fact is that true depression is rare and being a teenager is actually shit. Adults like to look at teenage years with rose tinted glasses, let's be honest - it's shit. Most these teenagers are not depressed, they are just fed up with having fuck all autonomy over their lives, low status and low income. That is not something anti-depressants can cure. True depression isn't rare at all. Of course it is. People with actual chemical imbalances in their body that can be improved with anti-depressants. About 3% of the population. Of course certain groups profit from pretending the figure is much higher. "  | |||
"1 in 4 people experience mental health problems. That's quite a lot in my book." It is but that bitch called life has a lot to answer for eh. | |||
"1 in 4 people experience mental health problems. That's quite a lot in my book." Because all mental health problems are caused by chemical imbalance   | |||
"...In teenagers. On BBC1 now." I missed but will try to find it on iplayer tomorrow. One of my biggest fears is that my children inherit my mental illness. My youngest is 17 and has struggled with periods of stress, low mood and anxiety. We have seen our GP and he (son) has worked through it with the help of online therapy, relaxation techniques combined with a good healthy diet, plenty of quality sleep and excercise. Yes, its worked so far, but given my own diagnosis it will always be in the back of my mind that he too may need medication at some point in his life.  | |||
"1 in 4 people experience mental health problems. That's quite a lot in my book." Not kids though | |||
"1 in 4 people experience mental health problems. That's quite a lot in my book. Because all mental health problems are caused by chemical imbalance "I take it you have vast experience in mental health, you're obviously right | |||
"1 in 4 people experience mental health problems. That's quite a lot in my book. Not kids though" No not kids, that would be extremely sad and worrying if those figures were for children only. | |||
"1 in 4 people experience mental health problems. That's quite a lot in my book. Because all mental health problems are caused by chemical imbalance
I take it you have vast experience in mental health, you're obviously right "Feel free to prove me wrong with any credible source that says 25% of people have a chemical imbalance in their brain that can be treated with anti-depressants. | |||
"1 in 4 people experience mental health problems. That's quite a lot in my book. Because all mental health problems are caused by chemical imbalance
I take it you have vast experience in mental health, you're obviously right
Feel free to prove me wrong with any credible source that says 25% of people have a chemical imbalance in their brain that can be treated with anti-depressants."I'm not here to prove anything, I come in the forums to discuss. | |||
"It’s sad that so many people suffer from depression these days - worse when it’s in people so young. " It may have something to do with the sudden outbreak of diagnosis The DSM has a lot to answer for | |||
"It’s sad that so many people suffer from depression these days - worse when it’s in people so young. It may have something to do with the sudden outbreak of diagnosis The DSM has a lot to answer for "you think it's a bad thing that diagnoses have advanced? | |||
"1 in 4 people experience mental health problems. That's quite a lot in my book. Because all mental health problems are caused by chemical imbalance
I take it you have vast experience in mental health, you're obviously right
Feel free to prove me wrong with any credible source that says 25% of people have a chemical imbalance in their brain that can be treated with anti-depressants.
I'm not here to prove anything, I come in the forums to discuss."No, you try to discredit me for lack of experience. It doesn't actually require any experience to lookup a statistic so that's really just a personal attack. Then it's telling you don't actually have any proper statistics yourself. | |||
"There were some decent distinctions on the other thread such as feeling depressed in reaction to an event(s) vrs no particular reason. The latter is what anti-depressants would actually help with. I would be willing to bet good money that the vast majority of those teenagers would not benefit from anti-depressants because the simple fact is that true depression is rare and being a teenager is actually shit. Adults like to look at teenage years with rose tinted glasses, let's be honest - it's shit. Most these teenagers are not depressed, they are just fed up with having fuck all autonomy over their lives, low status and low income. That is not something anti-depressants can cure. True depression isn't rare at all. Of course it is. People with actual chemical imbalances in their body that can be improved with anti-depressants. About 3% of the population. Of course certain groups profit from pretending the figure is much higher. " When you get a huge increase in incidence in f a disease in a short period of time you have to consider why that is.. Is the increase due to something actually occurring more often? In this case seeing as it’s a biological process it’s unlikely to be any more likely to quickly change in incidence than any other biological process. Vascular disease, cancer, arthritis etc.. Or, is it due to an increased willingness to diagnose a disease. And again (at the risk of sounding cynical) you have to wonder why that is.. So, kids are a product of their environment and their genetics. Either way the parents are to blame!! Reviewing the effect of treatment on something which is liable (in the huge majority of cases) to sort itself out over time without intervention is largely unrewarding. Proving effectiveness in the real world is nigh on impossible, but fresh air and exercise have never been proven to be harmful. Hence my comment that nothing has been proven to be more effective. I’m sure the last thing people want is a generation that were over diagnosed with a mental health problem carrying that into the rest of their lives. Except perhaps the pharamaceutical industry. Those drugs are expensive you know, and using them on kids is likely to be off licence and untested. (Would you volunteer your ‘well’ kid to be the control for an untested psychoactive substance??!) Interesting that the BBC are running the programme. This organisation makes it its raison d’etre to slag off health, educational and social services and makes all problems ‘failings’ whilst promoting the population not to take responsibility. They never fail to hammer home the political message when one doesn’t exist. | |||
"It’s sad that so many people suffer from depression these days - worse when it’s in people so young. It may have something to do with the sudden outbreak of diagnosis The DSM has a lot to answer for
you think it's a bad thing that diagnoses have advanced?"Advanced is not the correct term. The definition has been expanded so it now includes circumstances that won't be helped by anti-depressants. But people are prescribed them because studies proved they worked against a narrower definition of what depression was. | |||
"It’s sad that so many people suffer from depression these days - worse when it’s in people so young. It may have something to do with the sudden outbreak of diagnosis The DSM has a lot to answer for
you think it's a bad thing that diagnoses have advanced?
Advanced is not the correct term. The definition has been expanded so it now includes circumstances that won't be helped by anti-depressants. But people are prescribed them because studies proved they worked against a narrower definition of what depression was. "the DSM has been around sinnce the 50's...of course that branch of medicine has advanced, same as any other branch. Please dont presume to correct my language. I meant exactly what i said. | |||
"It’s sad that so many people suffer from depression these days - worse when it’s in people so young. It may have something to do with the sudden outbreak of diagnosis The DSM has a lot to answer for
you think it's a bad thing that diagnoses have advanced?"Hmm replying to a post with a 10 worded question  Why! You must have "10 worded questionitis". You've probably had it a long time but thank goodness we've finally diagnosed you have this terrible illness. Let me just look up what drugs I need to prescribe to you from my golfing buddies over at Glaxo  Get the gist? | |||
"Nothing has ever been proven to be more effective than fresh air and exercise " Hi Bradley, big fan of yours. | |||
"It’s sad that so many people suffer from depression these days - worse when it’s in people so young. It may have something to do with the sudden outbreak of diagnosis The DSM has a lot to answer for
you think it's a bad thing that diagnoses have advanced?
Hmm replying to a post with a 10 worded question Why! You must have "10 worded questionitis". You've probably had it a long time but thank goodness we've finally diagnosed you have this terrible illness. Let me just look up what drugs I need to prescribe to you from my golfing buddies over at Glaxo Get the gist? "no, not really...i think it's a good thing more conditions, as with any field of medicine have changed. In the time the DSM first appeared, doctors were advising pregnant women to take up smoking to calm them...things change with advanced knowledge! Mental health is no different...except that research is still harder to fund than most aspects of medicine.. | |||
"It’s sad that so many people suffer from depression these days - worse when it’s in people so young. It may have something to do with the sudden outbreak of diagnosis The DSM has a lot to answer for
you think it's a bad thing that diagnoses have advanced?
Advanced is not the correct term. The definition has been expanded so it now includes circumstances that won't be helped by anti-depressants. But people are prescribed them because studies proved they worked against a narrower definition of what depression was.
the DSM has been around sinnce the 50's...of course that branch of medicine has advanced, same as any other branch. Please dont presume to correct my language. I meant exactly what i said."The guy who helped initially "advance" the DSM is on record as saying he somewhat regrets it as, for an awful lot of "illnesses", they just sat in a room and made it up. Now it's self fullfilling. They make up an illness and, would you believe it, suddenly people start getting diagnosed as having it. It's not advancement. It's invention. Invention that plays perfectly into the needs of big pharma | |||
"Nothing has ever been proven to be more effective than fresh air and exercise " That’s a dangerous statement to wave about & is a load of crap. I heartily wish it were true, but even with fresh air, exercise & a healthy diet, my medication stabilises a chemical imbalance in my brain. It’s attitudes like this that perpetuate the myth that people with anxiety & depression just need to snap out of it | |||
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"Nothing has ever been proven to be more effective than fresh air and exercise That’s a dangerous statement to wave about & is a load of crap. I heartily wish it were true, but even with fresh air, exercise & a healthy diet, my medication stabilises a chemical imbalance in my brain. It’s attitudes like this that perpetuate the myth that people with anxiety & depression just need to snap out of it "it's horrible! but not suprising at all unfortunately. | |||
"Nothing has ever been proven to be more effective than fresh air and exercise That’s a dangerous statement to wave about & is a load of crap. I heartily wish it were true, but even with fresh air, exercise & a healthy diet, my medication stabilises a chemical imbalance in my brain. It’s attitudes like this that perpetuate the myth that people with anxiety & depression just need to snap out of it " | |||
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"The trouble with mental health is that we are still in the dark ages. People still get electro shock treatment for crying out loud. Any why? Because zapping someone with a whapping great spark is still more effective than some newer treatments. I mean that should tell you how neanderthal we still are with this stuff. We are like monkeys poking sticks in each other's ears trying to get the sounds out " I'm more of a chimpanzee myself  | |||
"The trouble with mental health is that we are still in the dark ages. People still get electro shock treatment for crying out loud. Any why? Because zapping someone with a whapping great spark is still more effective than some newer treatments. I mean that should tell you how neanderthal we still are with this stuff. We are like monkeys poking sticks in each other's ears trying to get the sounds out " ECT probably saved my life. In crisis a course of 8 sessions stabilised me and allowed medication to settle. Don't knock it. | |||
"Nothing has ever been proven to be more effective than fresh air and exercise That’s a dangerous statement to wave about & is a load of crap. I heartily wish it were true, but even with fresh air, exercise & a healthy diet, my medication stabilises a chemical imbalance in my brain. It’s attitudes like this that perpetuate the myth that people with anxiety & depression just need to snap out of it
it's horrible! but not suprising at all unfortunately."Sadly not. It’s a real shock at how people react to it. I recently had a panic attack whilst driving to work & all I could do was cry when I got there. I was told by my boss to stop apologising & take ownership of it. At the time, I was in the process of coming off my meds to switch to a different type, so was on a minimal dose. Don’t actually know what she expected me to do, but she just had no idea how to interact with me | |||
"Nothing has ever been proven to be more effective than fresh air and exercise " Agree with this to a degree. When I used to cycle a lot I was very aware how good this was being for me mentally, compared to sitting at Home in my own thoughts. Thinking about this, I wonder if some of the problem and disagreement is because we've truly been trained to be a microwave generation, hooked on quick fixes and unwilling to build patiently one step at a time. I will testify to the effects of exercise/looking after self etc. And this from someone who can understand how bad it can get. Start of the year wasn't too easy, completely falling apart and wanting to die. (Certainly not the hardest time I've had) Fully aware sometimes you really can't do it, and on those days leave it. But for every other day, I've generally done what I can do, and see it as building one brick at a time. Exercise has been horrible and gruelling for years, but if I can't manage 10 minutes I do 5, or just 2, most days just something, whatever little I can do, knowing Rome isn't built in a day. I credit this with keeping me functioning fairly normally. If I hadn't generally been doing the little I can do when possible I'd be ruined now. It's very hard to discuss without being a 'just be positive' person to someone who's really badly suffering and needs more than that, and differentiating this from someone like an emo kid. | |||
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"There were some decent distinctions on the other thread such as feeling depressed in reaction to an event(s) vrs no particular reason. The latter is what anti-depressants would actually help with. I would be willing to bet good money that the vast majority of those teenagers would not benefit from anti-depressants because the simple fact is that true depression is rare and being a teenager is actually shit. Adults like to look at teenage years with rose tinted glasses, let's be honest - it's shit. Most these teenagers are not depressed, they are just fed up with having fuck all autonomy over their lives, low status and low income. That is not something anti-depressants can cure. True depression isn't rare at all. Of course it is. People with actual chemical imbalances in their body that can be improved with anti-depressants. About 3% of the population. Of course certain groups profit from pretending the figure is much higher. " I’ve just been reading a Harvard Medical School paper on this, published last year. It states that depression isn’t always caused by a chemical imbalance, but from many different factors which are more complex. These include trauma, faulty mood regulation, low mood, genetics, medical problems and medication. Therefore, you can’t actually use the argument of not having a chemical imbalance as not being true depression. | |||
"Nothing has ever been proven to be more effective than fresh air and exercise That’s a dangerous statement to wave about & is a load of crap. I heartily wish it were true, but even with fresh air, exercise & a healthy diet, my medication stabilises a chemical imbalance in my brain. It’s attitudes like this that perpetuate the myth that people with anxiety & depression just need to snap out of it " | |||
"Nothing has ever been proven to be more effective than fresh air and exercise " Nothing has ever been proven to be more untrue. | |||
"Nothing has ever been proven to be more effective than fresh air and exercise Again, complete and utter bollocks Have you ever seen one seen it not be suggested as part of a management/treatment plan? " That’s not what you said though. I’m sure fresh air and exercise are important for people with cancer. But presumably you wouldn’t say that nothing has been proven to be more effective in the treatment of cancer as fresh air and exercise? Because it would be ridiculous, right? | |||
"Nothing has ever been proven to be more effective than fresh air and exercise For people who have severe depression?" In the huge majority of cases it isn’t going to be ‘severe’ depresssion. Certainly not in teenagers. | |||
"Nothing has ever been proven to be more effective than fresh air and exercise That’s a dangerous statement to wave about & is a load of crap. I heartily wish it were true, but even with fresh air, exercise & a healthy diet, my medication stabilises a chemical imbalance in my brain. It’s attitudes like this that perpetuate the myth that people with anxiety & depression just need to snap out of it
It’s not about snapping out of it at all. It’s a comment on the difficulty of treating depression and proving the efficacy of a medication, not on the people that have it. Many have chosen to take offence at a statement which is entirely neutral.
The thread is about the efficiacy of treatment and how you prove that, it’s in teenagers and not to be hijacked by adults giving annedoctal evidence of their own experience.
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"Nothing has ever been proven to be more effective than fresh air and exercise " They arent effective for me. | |||
"Interesting that the BBC are running the programme. This organisation makes it its raison d’etre to slag off health, educational and social services and makes all problems ‘failings’ whilst promoting the population not to take responsibility. They never fail to hammer home the political message when one doesn’t exist. " Is that really it’s raison d’etre? Isn’t it simply that there are legitimate issues with services that are reported right across the media, rather than some underhand and inaccurate thing being reported solely by the BBC? And what about the documentaries that would appear to showcase the great work of the NHS? I think when it comes to the BBC people see bias which is rarely there. We are led to believe that the BBC, simultaneously, is a mouthpiece for the government, and a bunch of liberal lefties. Bias, it turns out, is not just seeing something you happen to disagree with. | |||
"It’s sad that so many people suffer from depression these days - worse when it’s in people so young. Fascinating after this afternoons discussion. I wasn’t party to that - what are they saying that young people are depressed about (if they know)? I did not know until recently but drugs have a percentage working number. i.e 1 in 20 or 1 in 200. Most drugs prescribe for depression have a rating of 1/80 or higher or so I was told by a friend who’s a pharmacist. So that means they only work on 1 in 80 people that take them. But you can still become addicted have the side effects etc. Not that - just that most of the drugs being prescribed to the rapidly increasing number do NOT help." | |||
"There were some decent distinctions on the other thread such as feeling depressed in reaction to an event(s) vrs no particular reason. The latter is what anti-depressants would actually help with. I would be willing to bet good money that the vast majority of those teenagers would not benefit from anti-depressants because the simple fact is that true depression is rare and being a teenager is actually shit. Adults like to look at teenage years with rose tinted glasses, let's be honest - it's shit. Most these teenagers are not depressed, they are just fed up with having fuck all autonomy over their lives, low status and low income. That is not something anti-depressants can cure. True depression isn't rare at all. Of course it is. People with actual chemical imbalances in their body that can be improved with anti-depressants. About 3% of the population. Of course certain groups profit from pretending the figure is much higher. I’ve just been reading a Harvard Medical School paper on this, published last year. It states that depression isn’t always caused by a chemical imbalance, but from many different factors which are more complex. These include trauma, faulty mood regulation, low mood, genetics, medical problems and medication. Therefore, you can’t actually use the argument of not having a chemical imbalance as not being true depression. " But the thread is about the efficacy of antidepressants, not the causes of depression. Antidepressants are designed to treat that ‘chemical imbalance’ so if you believe one doesn’t exist they are very unlikely to be effective. | |||
"Nothing has ever been proven to be more effective than fresh air and exercise Agree with this to a degree. When I used to cycle a lot I was very aware how good this was being for me mentally, compared to sitting at Home in my own thoughts. Thinking about this, I wonder if some of the problem and disagreement is because we've truly been trained to be a microwave generation, hooked on quick fixes and unwilling to build patiently one step at a time. I will testify to the effects of exercise/looking after self etc. And this from someone who can understand how bad it can get. Start of the year wasn't too easy, completely falling apart and wanting to die. (Certainly not the hardest time I've had) Fully aware sometimes you really can't do it, and on those days leave it. But for every other day, I've generally done what I can do, and see it as building one brick at a time. Exercise has been horrible and gruelling for years, but if I can't manage 10 minutes I do 5, or just 2, most days just something, whatever little I can do, knowing Rome isn't built in a day. I credit this with keeping me functioning fairly normally. If I hadn't generally been doing the little I can do when possible I'd be ruined now. It's very hard to discuss without being a 'just be positive' person to someone who's really badly suffering and needs more than that, and differentiating this from someone like an emo kid." Yes, fresh air, good exercise and a healthy diet will all go a long way to keeping us physically and mentally well. But it’s another thing entirely to suggest that they are should somehow be a prescribed cure for mental illness, any more than they would be a prescribed cure for cancer. | |||
"Nothing has ever been proven to be more effective than fresh air and exercise Nothing has ever been proven to be more untrue." For many years I was married to someone who worked as a part of Social Services' Community Mental Health team. Part of the ongoing advice that was regularly given was to get better regular sleep patterns, eat regular and healthy meals, take some exercise, even if that was only walking, and to get out into the fresh air, especially parks or areas with trees. Of course, none of that is a magic pill that will instantly cure depression and other mental illness. Often, however, it is about managing it and lessening it's debilitating hold on the individual. So, from observation of the work of the Community Mental Health team, I would say that to dismiss "fresh air and exercise" is incorrect, although it is an abbreviated version of advice given. | |||
"Nothing has ever been proven to be more effective than fresh air and exercise Agree with this to a degree. When I used to cycle a lot I was very aware how good this was being for me mentally, compared to sitting at Home in my own thoughts. Thinking about this, I wonder if some of the problem and disagreement is because we've truly been trained to be a microwave generation, hooked on quick fixes and unwilling to build patiently one step at a time. I will testify to the effects of exercise/looking after self etc. And this from someone who can understand how bad it can get. Start of the year wasn't too easy, completely falling apart and wanting to die. (Certainly not the hardest time I've had) Fully aware sometimes you really can't do it, and on those days leave it. But for every other day, I've generally done what I can do, and see it as building one brick at a time. Exercise has been horrible and gruelling for years, but if I can't manage 10 minutes I do 5, or just 2, most days just something, whatever little I can do, knowing Rome isn't built in a day. I credit this with keeping me functioning fairly normally. If I hadn't generally been doing the little I can do when possible I'd be ruined now. It's very hard to discuss without being a 'just be positive' person to someone who's really badly suffering and needs more than that, and differentiating this from someone like an emo kid. Yes, fresh air, good exercise and a healthy diet will all go a long way to keeping us physically and mentally well. But it’s another thing entirely to suggest that they are should somehow be a prescribed cure for mental illness, any more than they would be a prescribed cure for cancer." I think that’s because there are treatments for other diseases (including cancer) that are actually proven to work. In cancer particularly the relative benefits of surgery, chemotherapy and radiotherapy have been documented (whether effective or not) and the information as to which works best in each situation continues to grow and guide choices. The fact that cancer in some cases can be ‘cured’ would seem to be evidence for this. If, as a poster above says the number of people needed to be treated with some antidepressant drugs in order to cure one person is in the region of 80 people, it would seem sensible that factors other than the direct effect of the drug come into play. Therefore, other strategies should be considered. Fresh air and exercise have never been proven to be detrimental, and in more cases helpful. | |||
"Nothing has ever been proven to be more effective than fresh air and exercise Nothing has ever been proven to be more untrue. For many years I was married to someone who worked as a part of Social Services' Community Mental Health team. Part of the ongoing advice that was regularly given was to get better regular sleep patterns, eat regular and healthy meals, take some exercise, even if that was only walking, and to get out into the fresh air, especially parks or areas with trees. Of course, none of that is a magic pill that will instantly cure depression and other mental illness. Often, however, it is about managing it and lessening it's debilitating hold on the individual. So, from observation of the work of the Community Mental Health team, I would say that to dismiss "fresh air and exercise" is incorrect, although it is an abbreviated version of advice given." Except I didn’t dismiss the idea that fresh air and exercise have health benefits for everyone. I dismissed the suggestion that “nothing has been proven to be more effective than fresh air and exercise” in the treatment of clinically diagnosed depression. | |||
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"There were some decent distinctions on the other thread such as feeling depressed in reaction to an event(s) vrs no particular reason. The latter is what anti-depressants would actually help with. I would be willing to bet good money that the vast majority of those teenagers would not benefit from anti-depressants because the simple fact is that true depression is rare and being a teenager is actually shit. Adults like to look at teenage years with rose tinted glasses, let's be honest - it's shit. Most these teenagers are not depressed, they are just fed up with having fuck all autonomy over their lives, low status and low income. That is not something anti-depressants can cure. True depression isn't rare at all. Of course it is. People with actual chemical imbalances in their body that can be improved with anti-depressants. About 3% of the population. Of course certain groups profit from pretending the figure is much higher. I’ve just been reading a Harvard Medical School paper on this, published last year. It states that depression isn’t always caused by a chemical imbalance, but from many different factors which are more complex. These include trauma, faulty mood regulation, low mood, genetics, medical problems and medication. Therefore, you can’t actually use the argument of not having a chemical imbalance as not being true depression. " What I'm really interested in is whether anti depressants improve the persons life and whether they are more effective than better diet, more exercise and better sleep. Did the paper compare the effectiveness of anti depressants for the different causes? If so, I'd be very interested to read it if you could post the name of the study. | |||
"Nothing has ever been proven to be more effective than fresh air and exercise Agree with this to a degree. When I used to cycle a lot I was very aware how good this was being for me mentally, compared to sitting at Home in my own thoughts. Thinking about this, I wonder if some of the problem and disagreement is because we've truly been trained to be a microwave generation, hooked on quick fixes and unwilling to build patiently one step at a time. I will testify to the effects of exercise/looking after self etc. And this from someone who can understand how bad it can get. Start of the year wasn't too easy, completely falling apart and wanting to die. (Certainly not the hardest time I've had) Fully aware sometimes you really can't do it, and on those days leave it. But for every other day, I've generally done what I can do, and see it as building one brick at a time. Exercise has been horrible and gruelling for years, but if I can't manage 10 minutes I do 5, or just 2, most days just something, whatever little I can do, knowing Rome isn't built in a day. I credit this with keeping me functioning fairly normally. If I hadn't generally been doing the little I can do when possible I'd be ruined now. It's very hard to discuss without being a 'just be positive' person to someone who's really badly suffering and needs more than that, and differentiating this from someone like an emo kid. Yes, fresh air, good exercise and a healthy diet will all go a long way to keeping us physically and mentally well. But it’s another thing entirely to suggest that they are should somehow be a prescribed cure for mental illness, any more than they would be a prescribed cure for cancer. I think that’s because there are treatments for other diseases (including cancer) that are actually proven to work. In cancer particularly the relative benefits of surgery, chemotherapy and radiotherapy have been documented (whether effective or not) and the information as to which works best in each situation continues to grow and guide choices. The fact that cancer in some cases can be ‘cured’ would seem to be evidence for this. If, as a poster above says the number of people needed to be treated with some antidepressant drugs in order to cure one person is in the region of 80 people, it would seem sensible that factors other than the direct effect of the drug come into play. Therefore, other strategies should be considered. Fresh air and exercise have never been proven to be detrimental, and in more cases helpful. " You’re moving the goalposts a bit there. Saying that fresh air and exercise have never been proven to be detrimental is quite different to saying that they are the best cure. And again, the argument is not that fresh air and exercise should be dismissed. It’s that fresh and exercise alone do not make a better treatment than clinically proven drugs. It’s not complicated - if the depression results from a chemical imbalance, and those drugs top up chemicals like seratonin, and that is shown to effectively help people manage their depression the it is clearly of benefit. And antidepressants have been proven to work too. Their benefits have been similarly documented. The 1 in 80 is a bit of a red herring as variants of mental health, and the most effective treatment is less obvious than with cancer. | |||
"Nothing has ever been proven to be more effective than fresh air and exercise Agree with this to a degree. When I used to cycle a lot I was very aware how good this was being for me mentally, compared to sitting at Home in my own thoughts. Thinking about this, I wonder if some of the problem and disagreement is because we've truly been trained to be a microwave generation, hooked on quick fixes and unwilling to build patiently one step at a time. I will testify to the effects of exercise/looking after self etc. And this from someone who can understand how bad it can get. Start of the year wasn't too easy, completely falling apart and wanting to die. (Certainly not the hardest time I've had) Fully aware sometimes you really can't do it, and on those days leave it. But for every other day, I've generally done what I can do, and see it as building one brick at a time. Exercise has been horrible and gruelling for years, but if I can't manage 10 minutes I do 5, or just 2, most days just something, whatever little I can do, knowing Rome isn't built in a day. I credit this with keeping me functioning fairly normally. If I hadn't generally been doing the little I can do when possible I'd be ruined now. It's very hard to discuss without being a 'just be positive' person to someone who's really badly suffering and needs more than that, and differentiating this from someone like an emo kid. Yes, fresh air, good exercise and a healthy diet will all go a long way to keeping us physically and mentally well. But it’s another thing entirely to suggest that they are should somehow be a prescribed cure for mental illness, any more than they would be a prescribed cure for cancer. I think that’s because there are treatments for other diseases (including cancer) that are actually proven to work. In cancer particularly the relative benefits of surgery, chemotherapy and radiotherapy have been documented (whether effective or not) and the information as to which works best in each situation continues to grow and guide choices. The fact that cancer in some cases can be ‘cured’ would seem to be evidence for this. If, as a poster above says the number of people needed to be treated with some antidepressant drugs in order to cure one person is in the region of 80 people, it would seem sensible that factors other than the direct effect of the drug come into play. Therefore, other strategies should be considered. Fresh air and exercise have never been proven to be detrimental, and in more cases helpful. You’re moving the goalposts a bit there. Saying that fresh air and exercise have never been proven to be detrimental is quite different to saying that they are the best cure. And again, the argument is not that fresh air and exercise should be dismissed. It’s that fresh and exercise alone do not make a better treatment than clinically proven drugs. It’s not complicated - if the depression results from a chemical imbalance, and those drugs top up chemicals like seratonin, and that is shown to effectively help people manage their depression the it is clearly of benefit. And antidepressants have been proven to work too. Their benefits have been similarly documented. The 1 in 80 is a bit of a red herring as variants of mental health, and the most effective treatment is less obvious than with cancer. " Which drugs have ever been designed to treat and proven to treat depression in kids? | |||
Adrian xx | |||
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"There were some decent distinctions on the other thread such as feeling depressed in reaction to an event(s) vrs no particular reason. The latter is what anti-depressants would actually help with. I would be willing to bet good money that the vast majority of those teenagers would not benefit from anti-depressants because the simple fact is that true depression is rare and being a teenager is actually shit. Adults like to look at teenage years with rose tinted glasses, let's be honest - it's shit. Most these teenagers are not depressed, they are just fed up with having fuck all autonomy over their lives, low status and low income. That is not something anti-depressants can cure. True depression isn't rare at all. Of course it is. People with actual chemical imbalances in their body that can be improved with anti-depressants. About 3% of the population. Of course certain groups profit from pretending the figure is much higher. I’ve just been reading a Harvard Medical School paper on this, published last year. It states that depression isn’t always caused by a chemical imbalance, but from many different factors which are more complex. These include trauma, faulty mood regulation, low mood, genetics, medical problems and medication. Therefore, you can’t actually use the argument of not having a chemical imbalance as not being true depression. But the thread is about the efficacy of antidepressants, not the causes of depression. Antidepressants are designed to treat that ‘chemical imbalance’ so if you believe one doesn’t exist they are very unlikely to be effective. " I was addressing BB’s comment on only 3% of the population having a natural chemical imbalance without outside factors. | |||
"It’s sad that so many people suffer from depression these days - worse when it’s in people so young. It may have something to do with the sudden outbreak of diagnosis The DSM has a lot to answer for
you think it's a bad thing that diagnoses have advanced?
Advanced is not the correct term. The definition has been expanded so it now includes circumstances that won't be helped by anti-depressants. But people are prescribed them because studies proved they worked against a narrower definition of what depression was. "Not in teenagers according to the programme. Of the 14 anti-depressants currently prescribed only 1 had data that showed it MIGHT help! The scariest thing to me was that they might equally increase suicidal episodes. Helpful! 
I think far more emphasis needs to be placed on alternative approaches with drugs the last resort to be honest.
Type 2 diabetes is the same - totally reversable in most cases. It needs to be more acceptable to address the wider issues first IMO. A little up front investment could save the nhs millions. | |||
"Watching this with interest. I am a mental health nurse. But specificaly with 14 to 18 year olds who are at risk of developing psychosis. Some utterly ridiculase remarks on here but also some valid ones. " Your work is priceless. | |||
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"Nothing has ever been proven to be more effective than fresh air and exercise Agree with this to a degree. When I used to cycle a lot I was very aware how good this was being for me mentally, compared to sitting at Home in my own thoughts. Thinking about this, I wonder if some of the problem and disagreement is because we've truly been trained to be a microwave generation, hooked on quick fixes and unwilling to build patiently one step at a time. I will testify to the effects of exercise/looking after self etc. And this from someone who can understand how bad it can get. Start of the year wasn't too easy, completely falling apart and wanting to die. (Certainly not the hardest time I've had) Fully aware sometimes you really can't do it, and on those days leave it. But for every other day, I've generally done what I can do, and see it as building one brick at a time. Exercise has been horrible and gruelling for years, but if I can't manage 10 minutes I do 5, or just 2, most days just something, whatever little I can do, knowing Rome isn't built in a day. I credit this with keeping me functioning fairly normally. If I hadn't generally been doing the little I can do when possible I'd be ruined now. It's very hard to discuss without being a 'just be positive' person to someone who's really badly suffering and needs more than that, and differentiating this from someone like an emo kid. Yes, fresh air, good exercise and a healthy diet will all go a long way to keeping us physically and mentally well. But it’s another thing entirely to suggest that they are should somehow be a prescribed cure for mental illness, any more than they would be a prescribed cure for cancer. I think that’s because there are treatments for other diseases (including cancer) that are actually proven to work. In cancer particularly the relative benefits of surgery, chemotherapy and radiotherapy have been documented (whether effective or not) and the information as to which works best in each situation continues to grow and guide choices. The fact that cancer in some cases can be ‘cured’ would seem to be evidence for this. If, as a poster above says the number of people needed to be treated with some antidepressant drugs in order to cure one person is in the region of 80 people, it would seem sensible that factors other than the direct effect of the drug come into play. Therefore, other strategies should be considered. Fresh air and exercise have never been proven to be detrimental, and in more cases helpful. You’re moving the goalposts a bit there. Saying that fresh air and exercise have never been proven to be detrimental is quite different to saying that they are the best cure. And again, the argument is not that fresh air and exercise should be dismissed. It’s that fresh and exercise alone do not make a better treatment than clinically proven drugs. It’s not complicated - if the depression results from a chemical imbalance, and those drugs top up chemicals like seratonin, and that is shown to effectively help people manage their depression the it is clearly of benefit. And antidepressants have been proven to work too. Their benefits have been similarly documented. The 1 in 80 is a bit of a red herring as variants of mental health, and the most effective treatment is less obvious than with cancer. Which drugs have ever been designed to treat and proven to treat depression in kids? " Well, I was talking generally. I wasn’t aware that antidepressants are age specific. Is that the case? And to be clear. My argument certainly isn’t that antidepressants are the only factor, or any sort of one stop shop. Or that factors like fresh air, exercise and a healthy diet aren’t factors in the overall wellbeing of someone. My argument is simply that I believe it to be wildly inaccurate and optimistic to suggest that things like fresh air, exercise and diet are the most effective treatments for severe, clinically diagnosed depression. | |||
"Watching this with interest. I am a mental health nurse. But specificaly with 14 to 18 year olds who are at risk of developing psychosis. Some utterly ridiculase remarks on here but also some valid ones. Your work is priceless." Thank you. Its bloody hard. The whole ethos of the roll i am is we dont medicate. Untill there are no options left. 1 in 5 will go on to develope psychosis. Lot of diifering reasons. Pressure from education. Socital pressure. Sexuality. Gender issues. Trauma. But what noone has mentioned is parenting. And that is a very common one. | |||
"Nothing has ever been proven to be more effective than fresh air and exercise Again, complete and utter bollocks"
At my most severe depressive state, I physically looked the healthiest and fittest I'd ever been. I over exercised to try and block out the severe mood swings and dark thoughts.
For anyone to say exercise cures and prevents depression is talking utter bullshit. | |||
"There were some decent distinctions on the other thread such as feeling depressed in reaction to an event(s) vrs no particular reason. The latter is what anti-depressants would actually help with. I would be willing to bet good money that the vast majority of those teenagers would not benefit from anti-depressants because the simple fact is that true depression is rare and being a teenager is actually shit. Adults like to look at teenage years with rose tinted glasses, let's be honest - it's shit. Most these teenagers are not depressed, they are just fed up with having fuck all autonomy over their lives, low status and low income. That is not something anti-depressants can cure. True depression isn't rare at all. Of course it is. People with actual chemical imbalances in their body that can be improved with anti-depressants. About 3% of the population. Of course certain groups profit from pretending the figure is much higher. I’ve just been reading a Harvard Medical School paper on this, published last year. It states that depression isn’t always caused by a chemical imbalance, but from many different factors which are more complex. These include trauma, faulty mood regulation, low mood, genetics, medical problems and medication. " Well exactly - and so anti-depressant drugs would be ineffective in many of those cases. | |||
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"Nothing has ever been proven to be more effective than fresh air and exercise Agree with this to a degree. When I used to cycle a lot I was very aware how good this was being for me mentally, compared to sitting at Home in my own thoughts. Thinking about this, I wonder if some of the problem and disagreement is because we've truly been trained to be a microwave generation, hooked on quick fixes and unwilling to build patiently one step at a time. I will testify to the effects of exercise/looking after self etc. And this from someone who can understand how bad it can get. Start of the year wasn't too easy, completely falling apart and wanting to die. (Certainly not the hardest time I've had) Fully aware sometimes you really can't do it, and on those days leave it. But for every other day, I've generally done what I can do, and see it as building one brick at a time. Exercise has been horrible and gruelling for years, but if I can't manage 10 minutes I do 5, or just 2, most days just something, whatever little I can do, knowing Rome isn't built in a day. I credit this with keeping me functioning fairly normally. If I hadn't generally been doing the little I can do when possible I'd be ruined now. It's very hard to discuss without being a 'just be positive' person to someone who's really badly suffering and needs more than that, and differentiating this from someone like an emo kid. Yes, fresh air, good exercise and a healthy diet will all go a long way to keeping us physically and mentally well. But it’s another thing entirely to suggest that they are should somehow be a prescribed cure for mental illness, any more than they would be a prescribed cure for cancer." Except that some forms of, lets call it nutritional and physical therapy HAVE been shown to profoundly alter brain chemistry, and with no risk of side effects it should be far higher in the cascade of intervention I believe. | |||
"There were some decent distinctions on the other thread such as feeling depressed in reaction to an event(s) vrs no particular reason. The latter is what anti-depressants would actually help with. I would be willing to bet good money that the vast majority of those teenagers would not benefit from anti-depressants because the simple fact is that true depression is rare and being a teenager is actually shit. Adults like to look at teenage years with rose tinted glasses, let's be honest - it's shit. Most these teenagers are not depressed, they are just fed up with having fuck all autonomy over their lives, low status and low income. That is not something anti-depressants can cure. True depression isn't rare at all. Of course it is. People with actual chemical imbalances in their body that can be improved with anti-depressants. About 3% of the population. Of course certain groups profit from pretending the figure is much higher. I’ve just been reading a Harvard Medical School paper on this, published last year. It states that depression isn’t always caused by a chemical imbalance, but from many different factors which are more complex. These include trauma, faulty mood regulation, low mood, genetics, medical problems and medication. Well exactly - and so anti-depressant drugs would be ineffective in many of those cases." No, because those triggers still cause that imbalance down the line so you’d still get the desired effect of the medication. | |||
"Nothing has ever been proven to be more effective than fresh air and exercise Agree with this to a degree. When I used to cycle a lot I was very aware how good this was being for me mentally, compared to sitting at Home in my own thoughts. Thinking about this, I wonder if some of the problem and disagreement is because we've truly been trained to be a microwave generation, hooked on quick fixes and unwilling to build patiently one step at a time. I will testify to the effects of exercise/looking after self etc. And this from someone who can understand how bad it can get. Start of the year wasn't too easy, completely falling apart and wanting to die. (Certainly not the hardest time I've had) Fully aware sometimes you really can't do it, and on those days leave it. But for every other day, I've generally done what I can do, and see it as building one brick at a time. Exercise has been horrible and gruelling for years, but if I can't manage 10 minutes I do 5, or just 2, most days just something, whatever little I can do, knowing Rome isn't built in a day. I credit this with keeping me functioning fairly normally. If I hadn't generally been doing the little I can do when possible I'd be ruined now. It's very hard to discuss without being a 'just be positive' person to someone who's really badly suffering and needs more than that, and differentiating this from someone like an emo kid. Yes, fresh air, good exercise and a healthy diet will all go a long way to keeping us physically and mentally well. But it’s another thing entirely to suggest that they are should somehow be a prescribed cure for mental illness, any more than they would be a prescribed cure for cancer." | |||
"Nothing has ever been proven to be more effective than fresh air and exercise Agree with this to a degree. When I used to cycle a lot I was very aware how good this was being for me mentally, compared to sitting at Home in my own thoughts. Thinking about this, I wonder if some of the problem and disagreement is because we've truly been trained to be a microwave generation, hooked on quick fixes and unwilling to build patiently one step at a time. I will testify to the effects of exercise/looking after self etc. And this from someone who can understand how bad it can get. Start of the year wasn't too easy, completely falling apart and wanting to die. (Certainly not the hardest time I've had) Fully aware sometimes you really can't do it, and on those days leave it. But for every other day, I've generally done what I can do, and see it as building one brick at a time. Exercise has been horrible and gruelling for years, but if I can't manage 10 minutes I do 5, or just 2, most days just something, whatever little I can do, knowing Rome isn't built in a day. I credit this with keeping me functioning fairly normally. If I hadn't generally been doing the little I can do when possible I'd be ruined now. It's very hard to discuss without being a 'just be positive' person to someone who's really badly suffering and needs more than that, and differentiating this from someone like an emo kid. Yes, fresh air, good exercise and a healthy diet will all go a long way to keeping us physically and mentally well. But it’s another thing entirely to suggest that they are should somehow be a prescribed cure for mental illness, any more than they would be a prescribed cure for cancer. I think that’s because there are treatments for other diseases (including cancer) that are actually proven to work. In cancer particularly the relative benefits of surgery, chemotherapy and radiotherapy have been documented (whether effective or not) and the information as to which works best in each situation continues to grow and guide choices. The fact that cancer in some cases can be ‘cured’ would seem to be evidence for this. If, as a poster above says the number of people needed to be treated with some antidepressant drugs in order to cure one person is in the region of 80 people, it would seem sensible that factors other than the direct effect of the drug come into play. Therefore, other strategies should be considered. Fresh air and exercise have never been proven to be detrimental, and in more cases helpful. You’re moving the goalposts a bit there. Saying that fresh air and exercise have never been proven to be detrimental is quite different to saying that they are the best cure. And again, the argument is not that fresh air and exercise should be dismissed. It’s that fresh and exercise alone do not make a better treatment than clinically proven drugs. It’s not complicated - if the depression results from a chemical imbalance, and those drugs top up chemicals like seratonin, and that is shown to effectively help people manage their depression the it is clearly of benefit. And antidepressants have been proven to work too. Their benefits have been similarly documented. The 1 in 80 is a bit of a red herring as variants of mental health, and the most effective treatment is less obvious than with cancer. Which drugs have ever been designed to treat and proven to treat depression in kids? Well, I was talking generally. I wasn’t aware that antidepressants are age specific. Is that the case? And to be clear. My argument certainly isn’t that antidepressants are the only factor, or any sort of one stop shop. Or that factors like fresh air, exercise and a healthy diet aren’t factors in the overall wellbeing of someone. My argument is simply that I believe it to be wildly inaccurate and optimistic to suggest that things like fresh air, exercise and diet are the most effective treatments for severe, clinically diagnosed depression." Evidence has to be specific. It’s virtaully impossible to get evidence for these treatments in kids because of ethical difficulty about clinical trials. Therefore data is likely to be extrapolated from adult data or the drugs used for something they weren’t originally tested for. I’ve never said they should be the only treatment or the most effective in severe depression but most depression isn’t severe, and the comments made relate to the paucity of the evidence and the relative inefficacy of all treatments. Comparisons with other diseases like cancer are unhelpful. I can’t remember a time when cancer resolved itself without any treatment | |||
"There were some decent distinctions on the other thread such as feeling depressed in reaction to an event(s) vrs no particular reason. The latter is what anti-depressants would actually help with. I would be willing to bet good money that the vast majority of those teenagers would not benefit from anti-depressants because the simple fact is that true depression is rare and being a teenager is actually shit. Adults like to look at teenage years with rose tinted glasses, let's be honest - it's shit. Most these teenagers are not depressed, they are just fed up with having fuck all autonomy over their lives, low status and low income. That is not something anti-depressants can cure. True depression isn't rare at all. Of course it is. People with actual chemical imbalances in their body that can be improved with anti-depressants. About 3% of the population. Of course certain groups profit from pretending the figure is much higher. I’ve just been reading a Harvard Medical School paper on this, published last year. It states that depression isn’t always caused by a chemical imbalance, but from many different factors which are more complex. These include trauma, faulty mood regulation, low mood, genetics, medical problems and medication. Well exactly - and so anti-depressant drugs would be ineffective in many of those cases. No, because those triggers still cause that imbalance down the line so you’d still get the desired effect of the medication. " No, that is not true in many cases. The data is much less conclusive than you seem to believe, and a lot of people are addicted to a placebo in reality. Yes, meds will help some and be essential for others, but it is by no means a predictable cause and effect like taking an aspirin. I would feel far more comfortable if accurate and cost-effective testing of brain chemistry was developed so prescription was based on clinical evidence for instance. I suspect that only happens deep into psychiatry? | |||
"It’s sad that so many people suffer from depression these days - worse when it’s in people so young. It may have something to do with the sudden outbreak of diagnosis The DSM has a lot to answer for
you think it's a bad thing that diagnoses have advanced?
Advanced is not the correct term. The definition has been expanded so it now includes circumstances that won't be helped by anti-depressants. But people are prescribed them because studies proved they worked against a narrower definition of what depression was.
Not in teenagers according to the programme. Of the 14 anti-depressants currently prescribed only 1 had data that showed it MIGHT help!
The scariest thing to me was that they might equally increase suicidal episodes. Helpful!
I think far more emphasis needs to be placed on alternative approaches with drugs the last resort to be honest."I think that would’ve been fluoxetine. It’s the only NICE recommended drug for treating children with moderate to severe depression. Even then, it can only be used after alternative therapies. | |||
"Nothing has ever been proven to be more effective than fresh air and exercise " I agree... too much sitting on their phones .social media rubbish , peer pressure, watching god knows how many channels on tv Kids dont play anymore, using their imagination and social skills They dont have hobbies , Young uns I work with cannot cook , english and grammar awfull ...and just dont seem to want to work .... education needs to go back to basics ... Also to be taught how to respect others .. A child has to have a strong foundation to develop skills for life .... . | |||
"There were some decent distinctions on the other thread such as feeling depressed in reaction to an event(s) vrs no particular reason. The latter is what anti-depressants would actually help with. I would be willing to bet good money that the vast majority of those teenagers would not benefit from anti-depressants because the simple fact is that true depression is rare and being a teenager is actually shit. Adults like to look at teenage years with rose tinted glasses, let's be honest - it's shit. Most these teenagers are not depressed, they are just fed up with having fuck all autonomy over their lives, low status and low income. That is not something anti-depressants can cure. True depression isn't rare at all. Of course it is. People with actual chemical imbalances in their body that can be improved with anti-depressants. About 3% of the population. Of course certain groups profit from pretending the figure is much higher. I’ve just been reading a Harvard Medical School paper on this, published last year. It states that depression isn’t always caused by a chemical imbalance, but from many different factors which are more complex. These include trauma, faulty mood regulation, low mood, genetics, medical problems and medication. Well exactly - and so anti-depressant drugs would be ineffective in many of those cases. No, because those triggers still cause that imbalance down the line so you’d still get the desired effect of the medication. No, that is not true in many cases. The data is much less conclusive than you seem to believe, and a lot of people are addicted to a placebo in reality. Yes, meds will help some and be essential for others, but it is by no means a predictable cause and effect like taking an aspirin. I would feel far more comfortable if accurate and cost-effective testing of brain chemistry was developed so prescription was based on clinical evidence for instance. I suspect that only happens deep into psychiatry? " To be totally honest, I’m not sure what I believe about it and haven’t read enough about the trials/effects of it. I do believe that we’re over-prescribing and I think the majority of that is down to cuts in mental health services across the CCGs. | |||
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"Also no-one has mentioned herbals. St John's Wort is widely prescribed in Germany for depression as it's use has strong supporting data, and that has far less side effects. " Can interact with other medications. And some people can have a bad reaction to st johns wort. | |||
"It’s sad that so many people suffer from depression these days - worse when it’s in people so young. " What's worse is, it's unclear if this is due to social factors, environmental factors, general diet, or people just over reaching in a diagnosis. It's just too difficult to find a solid root cause to try and fix. | |||
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"Also no-one has mentioned herbals. St John's Wort is widely prescribed in Germany for depression as it's use has strong supporting data, and that has far less side effects. Can interact with other medications. And some people can have a bad reaction to st johns wort. " Sure, it is a potent herbal drug. All drugs have a potential downside which needs to be borne in mind, but as I say, apparently millions of Germans find it safe and effective, their state system prescribes it I understand. I have been prescribed SSRI's in the past for what I would describe as stress related depression, but always found them totally useless because I was not willing to suffer the 'zombie' effect in addition to life pissing me off! Some years back I was given Zyban on the NHS quit smoking scheme and felt so good on it I did a little sleuthing and found out it increased dopamine as well as serotonin. As I found it SO easy to give up cigs on the drug, and as smoking causes a dopamine hit - I pondered that may have been what I lacked all along, and therefore increasing serotonin would have simply made matters worse!! St John's Wort increases dopamine as well as serotonin, so I used that for a while as a follow-up to the Zyban. I certainly never even looked at another disgusting fag again!
So, if ever I find life overwhelmingly stressful again despite all the fresh veg, fresh air and exercise I get, that would certainly be my first port of call. | |||
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"Here's an interesting study which shows how the 'brain chemistry' model may actually may make people even more dependent on drugs: The Chemical Imbalance Explanation of Depression: Reducing Blame at What Cost? Brett J. Deacon, Grayson L. Baird Additional Information Abstract Brain disease models of psychopathology, such as the popular “chemical imbalance” explanation of depression, have been widely disseminated in an attempt to reduce the stigma of mental illness. Ironically, such models appear to increase prejudicial attitudes among the general public toward persons with mental disorders. However, little is known about how biochemical causal explanations affect the perceptions of individuals seeking mental health treatment. Ninety undergraduate students participated in a thought experiment in which they were asked to imagine feeling depressed, seeking help from a doctor who diagnosed them with major depressive disorder, and receiving, in counterbalanced order, a chemical imbalance and biopsychosocial explanation for their symptoms. Ratings of each explanation's credibility and perceptions of self-stigma (e.g., blame), prognosis, and treatment expectancies were obtained. Compared to the biopsychosocial model, the chemical imbalance model was associated with significantly less self-stigma but also significantly lower credibility, a worse expected prognosis, and the perception that psychosocial interventions would be ineffective. " I'm struggling to understand this. They pretended they were depressed ? How did they know what being depressed feels like inside their minds and bodies? Did they research it beforehand? | |||
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"Wow, look at this abstract: Anatomy of an Epidemic: Psychiatric Drugs and the Astonishing Rise of Mental Illness in America Author: Whitaker, Robert Source: Ethical Human Sciences and Services, Volume 7, Number 1, 2005, pp. 23-35(13) Over the past 50 years, there has been an astonishing increase in severe mental illness in the United States. The percentage of Americans disabled by mental illness has increased fivefold since 1955, when Thorazine—remembered today as psychiatry's first "wonder" drug—was introduced into the market. The number of Americans disabled by mental illness has nearly doubled since 1987, when Prozac—the first in a second generation of wonder drugs for mental illness—was introduced. There are now nearly 6 million Americans disabled by mental illness, and this number increases by more than 400 people each day. A review of the scientific literature reveals that it is our drug-based paradigm of care that is fueling this epidemic. The drugs increase the likelihood that a person will become chronically ill, and induce new and more severe psychiatric symptoms in a significant percentage of patients." So, the drugs don't work. | |||
" I'm struggling to understand this. They pretended they were depressed ? How did they know what being depressed feels like inside their minds and bodies? Did they research it beforehand?" It was not about being depressed - it was about their emotional reactions to the theories of the cause of depression. I have never looked into this before, but I don't think it is as cut and dried as people make out, and I think the potential for culture/belief based dependancy is very real. | |||
"Wow, look at this abstract: Anatomy of an Epidemic: Psychiatric Drugs and the Astonishing Rise of Mental Illness in America Author: Whitaker, Robert Source: Ethical Human Sciences and Services, Volume 7, Number 1, 2005, pp. 23-35(13) Over the past 50 years, there has been an astonishing increase in severe mental illness in the United States. The percentage of Americans disabled by mental illness has increased fivefold since 1955, when Thorazine—remembered today as psychiatry's first "wonder" drug—was introduced into the market. The number of Americans disabled by mental illness has nearly doubled since 1987, when Prozac—the first in a second generation of wonder drugs for mental illness—was introduced. There are now nearly 6 million Americans disabled by mental illness, and this number increases by more than 400 people each day. A review of the scientific literature reveals that it is our drug-based paradigm of care that is fueling this epidemic. The drugs increase the likelihood that a person will become chronically ill, and induce new and more severe psychiatric symptoms in a significant percentage of patients. So, the drugs don't work." Worse - they can actually cause a far greater problem. | |||
"Wow, look at this abstract: Anatomy of an Epidemic: Psychiatric Drugs and the Astonishing Rise of Mental Illness in America Author: Whitaker, Robert Source: Ethical Human Sciences and Services, Volume 7, Number 1, 2005, pp. 23-35(13) Over the past 50 years, there has been an astonishing increase in severe mental illness in the United States. The percentage of Americans disabled by mental illness has increased fivefold since 1955, when Thorazine—remembered today as psychiatry's first "wonder" drug—was introduced into the market. The number of Americans disabled by mental illness has nearly doubled since 1987, when Prozac—the first in a second generation of wonder drugs for mental illness—was introduced. There are now nearly 6 million Americans disabled by mental illness, and this number increases by more than 400 people each day. A review of the scientific literature reveals that it is our drug-based paradigm of care that is fueling this epidemic. The drugs increase the likelihood that a person will become chronically ill, and induce new and more severe psychiatric symptoms in a significant percentage of patients. So, the drugs don't work. Worse - they can actually cause a far greater problem." Probably a lot of money to be made from it. | |||
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" I'm struggling to understand this. They pretended they were depressed ? How did they know what being depressed feels like inside their minds and bodies? Did they research it beforehand? It was not about being depressed - it was about their emotional reactions to the theories of the cause of depression. I have never looked into this before, but I don't think it is as cut and dried as people make out, and I think the potential for culture/belief based dependancy is very real." I'd need more information to put any credibility on it. | |||
"Oh shit! Someone is bring facts to a fab discussion. This won't end well. Just waiting for the "you've got facts but I've got personal experience" cavalry to arrive." Scientific facts are sometimes not actual facts though and someone will counter those facts with facts of their own. Look at the squirting debate for evidence of that. | |||
"Oh shit! Someone is bring facts to a fab discussion. This won't end well. Just waiting for the "you've got facts but I've got personal experience" cavalry to arrive. Scientific facts are sometimes not actual facts though and someone will counter those facts with facts of their own. Look at the squirting debate for evidence of that. " Oh i agree and have zero objection to anyone saying "that study was disproven" or "that study says that but this one says otherwise". But most counters start with "well know a man who owns a dog and he told me..." | |||
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"Oh shit! Someone is bring facts to a fab discussion. This won't end well. Just waiting for the "you've got facts but I've got personal experience" cavalry to arrive. Scientific facts are sometimes not actual facts though and someone will counter those facts with facts of their own. Look at the squirting debate for evidence of that. Oh i agree and have zero objection to anyone saying "that study was disproven" or "that study says that but this one says otherwise". But most counters start with "well know a man who owns a dog and he told me..."" People can only relay what they have experienced. Speaking from my own experiences I wouldn't be here without being medicated when I became seriously ill. Whether that medication can be improved, I have no idea, but it kept me alive and got me through a very bad time. The brain is very complex and controls everything, so I'm guessing it won't be a simple solution to improve. | |||
"Oh shit! Someone is bring facts to a fab discussion. This won't end well. Just waiting for the "you've got facts but I've got personal experience" cavalry to arrive. Scientific facts are sometimes not actual facts though and someone will counter those facts with facts of their own. Look at the squirting debate for evidence of that. Oh i agree and have zero objection to anyone saying "that study was disproven" or "that study says that but this one says otherwise". But most counters start with "well know a man who owns a dog and he told me..." People can only relay what they have experienced. Speaking from my own experiences I wouldn't be here without being medicated when I became seriously ill. Whether that medication can be improved, I have no idea, but it kept me alive and got me through a very bad time. The brain is very complex and controls everything, so I'm guessing it won't be a simple solution to improve. " It's how people extrapolate their experience more broadly that's the issue. Anyone can do research, doctors don't need to have cancer to know how to cure it. If you say it helped you then i think 'ok, she's in the ~3% i estimated for', but in america it's 13% taking them. So i see a massive over prescribing and companies spending a lot of lobbying money helping them get over prescribed. | |||
"Oh shit! Someone is bring facts to a fab discussion. This won't end well. Just waiting for the "you've got facts but I've got personal experience" cavalry to arrive. Scientific facts are sometimes not actual facts though and someone will counter those facts with facts of their own. Look at the squirting debate for evidence of that. Oh i agree and have zero objection to anyone saying "that study was disproven" or "that study says that but this one says otherwise". But most counters start with "well know a man who owns a dog and he told me..."" Most on this thread are actually speaking from personal experience and challenging comments like diet and exercise working well solely as a treatment plan. It’s like saying autism should just be treated by dietary intervention. There’s no one size fits all. | |||
"Oh shit! Someone is bring facts to a fab discussion. This won't end well. Just waiting for the "you've got facts but I've got personal experience" cavalry to arrive. Scientific facts are sometimes not actual facts though and someone will counter those facts with facts of their own. Look at the squirting debate for evidence of that. Oh i agree and have zero objection to anyone saying "that study was disproven" or "that study says that but this one says otherwise". But most counters start with "well know a man who owns a dog and he told me..." Most on this thread are actually speaking from personal experience and challenging comments like diet and exercise working well solely as a treatment plan. It’s like saying autism should just be treated by dietary intervention. There’s no one size fits all." Has anyone actually said there is no such thing as depression caused by chemical imbalances and all depression should be treated by diet and exercise? Who made that arguement? What i thought most people were saying is that it looks like about 3x more people are getting prescribed anti depressants than should be. Of those people, diet and exercise would be more effective. I absoutely do not try and diminish the ~3% who seriously benefit from anti-depressants. | |||
"Oh shit! Someone is bring facts to a fab discussion. This won't end well. Just waiting for the "you've got facts but I've got personal experience" cavalry to arrive. Scientific facts are sometimes not actual facts though and someone will counter those facts with facts of their own. Look at the squirting debate for evidence of that. Oh i agree and have zero objection to anyone saying "that study was disproven" or "that study says that but this one says otherwise". But most counters start with "well know a man who owns a dog and he told me..." Most on this thread are actually speaking from personal experience and challenging comments like diet and exercise working well solely as a treatment plan. It’s like saying autism should just be treated by dietary intervention. There’s no one size fits all. Has anyone actually said there is no such thing as depression caused by chemical imbalances and all depression should be treated by diet and exercise? Who made that arguement? What i thought most people were saying is that it looks like about 3x more people are getting prescribed anti depressants than should be. Of those people, diet and exercise would be more effective. I absoutely do not try and diminish the ~3% who seriously benefit from anti-depressants. " Read the thread, you’ll see it. Where did you get that 3% from? I’d be interested in reading the whole thing. | |||
"Oh shit! Someone is bring facts to a fab discussion. This won't end well. Just waiting for the "you've got facts but I've got personal experience" cavalry to arrive. Scientific facts are sometimes not actual facts though and someone will counter those facts with facts of their own. Look at the squirting debate for evidence of that. Oh i agree and have zero objection to anyone saying "that study was disproven" or "that study says that but this one says otherwise". But most counters start with "well know a man who owns a dog and he told me..." Most on this thread are actually speaking from personal experience and challenging comments like diet and exercise working well solely as a treatment plan. It’s like saying autism should just be treated by dietary intervention. There’s no one size fits all. Has anyone actually said there is no such thing as depression caused by chemical imbalances and all depression should be treated by diet and exercise? Who made that arguement? What i thought most people were saying is that it looks like about 3x more people are getting prescribed anti depressants than should be. Of those people, diet and exercise would be more effective. I absoutely do not try and diminish the ~3% who seriously benefit from anti-depressants. Read the thread, you’ll see it. Where did you get that 3% from? I’d be interested in reading the whole thing. " "Global, regional, and national incidence, prevalence and years lived with disability for 310 diseases and injuries, 1990-2015" (2016). | |||
"Oh shit! Someone is bring facts to a fab discussion. This won't end well. Just waiting for the "you've got facts but I've got personal experience" cavalry to arrive. Scientific facts are sometimes not actual facts though and someone will counter those facts with facts of their own. Look at the squirting debate for evidence of that. Oh i agree and have zero objection to anyone saying "that study was disproven" or "that study says that but this one says otherwise". But most counters start with "well know a man who owns a dog and he told me..." Most on this thread are actually speaking from personal experience and challenging comments like diet and exercise working well solely as a treatment plan. It’s like saying autism should just be treated by dietary intervention. There’s no one size fits all. Has anyone actually said there is no such thing as depression caused by chemical imbalances and all depression should be treated by diet and exercise? Who made that arguement? What i thought most people were saying is that it looks like about 3x more people are getting prescribed anti depressants than should be. Of those people, diet and exercise would be more effective. I absoutely do not try and diminish the ~3% who seriously benefit from anti-depressants. Read the thread, you’ll see it. Where did you get that 3% from? I’d be interested in reading the whole thing. "Global, regional, and national incidence, prevalence and years lived with disability for 310 diseases and injuries, 1990-2015" (2016). " Shows the scale of the increase in insulin resistance aka type II diabetes. | |||
"Oh shit! Someone is bring facts to a fab discussion. This won't end well. Just waiting for the "you've got facts but I've got personal experience" cavalry to arrive. Scientific facts are sometimes not actual facts though and someone will counter those facts with facts of their own. Look at the squirting debate for evidence of that. Oh i agree and have zero objection to anyone saying "that study was disproven" or "that study says that but this one says otherwise". But most counters start with "well know a man who owns a dog and he told me..." Most on this thread are actually speaking from personal experience and challenging comments like diet and exercise working well solely as a treatment plan. It’s like saying autism should just be treated by dietary intervention. There’s no one size fits all. Has anyone actually said there is no such thing as depression caused by chemical imbalances and all depression should be treated by diet and exercise? Who made that arguement? What i thought most people were saying is that it looks like about 3x more people are getting prescribed anti depressants than should be. Of those people, diet and exercise would be more effective. I absoutely do not try and diminish the ~3% who seriously benefit from anti-depressants. Read the thread, you’ll see it. Where did you get that 3% from? I’d be interested in reading the whole thing. "Global, regional, and national incidence, prevalence and years lived with disability for 310 diseases and injuries, 1990-2015" (2016). " Oh, you’re talking about dysthymia. That does only affect 3% of the population. It’s not quite the same as chronic depression. | |||
"Oh shit! Someone is bring facts to a fab discussion. This won't end well. Just waiting for the "you've got facts but I've got personal experience" cavalry to arrive. Scientific facts are sometimes not actual facts though and someone will counter those facts with facts of their own. Look at the squirting debate for evidence of that. Oh i agree and have zero objection to anyone saying "that study was disproven" or "that study says that but this one says otherwise". But most counters start with "well know a man who owns a dog and he told me..." People can only relay what they have experienced. Speaking from my own experiences I wouldn't be here without being medicated when I became seriously ill. Whether that medication can be improved, I have no idea, but it kept me alive and got me through a very bad time. The brain is very complex and controls everything, so I'm guessing it won't be a simple solution to improve. It's how people extrapolate their experience more broadly that's the issue. Anyone can do research, doctors don't need to have cancer to know how to cure it. If you say it helped you then i think 'ok, she's in the ~3% i estimated for', but in america it's 13% taking them. So i see a massive over prescribing and companies spending a lot of lobbying money helping them get over prescribed. " There is a lot of money in keeping people on medication. Since being on my original medication I have not had one review with a specialist to see if I can or how to withdraw from them. I did it myself and told my GP to reduce my dosage. Maybe there was another way or other things I could have tried, but I wasn't offered anything else. | |||
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"Oh shit! Someone is bring facts to a fab discussion. This won't end well. Just waiting for the "you've got facts but I've got personal experience" cavalry to arrive. Scientific facts are sometimes not actual facts though and someone will counter those facts with facts of their own. Look at the squirting debate for evidence of that. Oh i agree and have zero objection to anyone saying "that study was disproven" or "that study says that but this one says otherwise". But most counters start with "well know a man who owns a dog and he told me..." Most on this thread are actually speaking from personal experience and challenging comments like diet and exercise working well solely as a treatment plan. It’s like saying autism should just be treated by dietary intervention. There’s no one size fits all. Has anyone actually said there is no such thing as depression caused by chemical imbalances and all depression should be treated by diet and exercise? Who made that arguement? What i thought most people were saying is that it looks like about 3x more people are getting prescribed anti depressants than should be. Of those people, diet and exercise would be more effective. I absoutely do not try and diminish the ~3% who seriously benefit from anti-depressants. Read the thread, you’ll see it. Where did you get that 3% from? I’d be interested in reading the whole thing. "Global, regional, and national incidence, prevalence and years lived with disability for 310 diseases and injuries, 1990-2015" (2016). Oh, you’re talking about dysthymia. That does only affect 3% of the population. It’s not quite the same as chronic depression." I'm talking about major depressive disorder | |||
"Oh shit! Someone is bring facts to a fab discussion. This won't end well. Just waiting for the "you've got facts but I've got personal experience" cavalry to arrive. Scientific facts are sometimes not actual facts though and someone will counter those facts with facts of their own. Look at the squirting debate for evidence of that. Oh i agree and have zero objection to anyone saying "that study was disproven" or "that study says that but this one says otherwise". But most counters start with "well know a man who owns a dog and he told me..." Most on this thread are actually speaking from personal experience and challenging comments like diet and exercise working well solely as a treatment plan. It’s like saying autism should just be treated by dietary intervention. There’s no one size fits all. Has anyone actually said there is no such thing as depression caused by chemical imbalances and all depression should be treated by diet and exercise? Who made that arguement? What i thought most people were saying is that it looks like about 3x more people are getting prescribed anti depressants than should be. Of those people, diet and exercise would be more effective. I absoutely do not try and diminish the ~3% who seriously benefit from anti-depressants. Read the thread, you’ll see it. Where did you get that 3% from? I’d be interested in reading the whole thing. "Global, regional, and national incidence, prevalence and years lived with disability for 310 diseases and injuries, 1990-2015" (2016). Oh, you’re talking about dysthymia. That does only affect 3% of the population. It’s not quite the same as chronic depression. I'm talking about major depressive disorder " The 3% you’re quoting is dysthymia. It’s a term given to depression lasting longer than 2 years, so it actually is chronic. I meant to say it’s not the same as severe depression. | |||
"Oh shit! Someone is bring facts to a fab discussion. This won't end well. Just waiting for the "you've got facts but I've got personal experience" cavalry to arrive. Scientific facts are sometimes not actual facts though and someone will counter those facts with facts of their own. Look at the squirting debate for evidence of that. Oh i agree and have zero objection to anyone saying "that study was disproven" or "that study says that but this one says otherwise". But most counters start with "well know a man who owns a dog and he told me..." Most on this thread are actually speaking from personal experience and challenging comments like diet and exercise working well solely as a treatment plan. It’s like saying autism should just be treated by dietary intervention. There’s no one size fits all. Has anyone actually said there is no such thing as depression caused by chemical imbalances and all depression should be treated by diet and exercise? Who made that arguement? What i thought most people were saying is that it looks like about 3x more people are getting prescribed anti depressants than should be. Of those people, diet and exercise would be more effective. I absoutely do not try and diminish the ~3% who seriously benefit from anti-depressants. Read the thread, you’ll see it. Where did you get that 3% from? I’d be interested in reading the whole thing. "Global, regional, and national incidence, prevalence and years lived with disability for 310 diseases and injuries, 1990-2015" (2016). Oh, you’re talking about dysthymia. That does only affect 3% of the population. It’s not quite the same as chronic depression. I'm talking about major depressive disorder The 3% you’re quoting is dysthymia. It’s a term given to depression lasting longer than 2 years, so it actually is chronic. I meant to say it’s not the same as severe depression. " Again, no it isn't. Page 1553, major depressive disorder. | |||
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"Each generation is spun the yarn that their medicine is the best. The doctor does their scientificky act in white coats to try and hypnotise the patient into believing in the process (as it's often that belief alone which has the greatest healing power). And people fall into the idea that today's meds are a genuine solution to whatever problems they claim to solve. It's true. Today's meds are the best they've ever been. But that doesn't mean they're any good. They're just better than a kick in the balls or a placebo. We need to take them in various cases, cross our fingers, and hope they help. But in most cases we're best off steering far clear from them and promoting the health of our bodies via diet, exercise, things that make you happy, etc. Cut off the tip of your finger and your body will regrow it. The body is still by far the greatest healer of itself than we are masters of it. We are fools in the face of a profound pervasive intelligence " The brain gives out the orders to the body; if the command centre is dysfunctional it can't heal itself. | |||
"Nothing has ever been proven to be more effective than fresh air and exercise " Could you send me the link to the professional study that says that | |||
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"Nothing has ever been proven to be more effective than fresh air and exercise Could you send me the link to the professional study that says that" That’s the whole point. There aren’t many ‘studies’ on this at all. There is a severe lack of evidence on every part of it. So, subjecting kids to unlicensed and untrialled medication is your answer?? Certainly you’ll struggle to find a ‘study’ that proves fresh air and exercise harmful. | |||
"It’s sad that so many people suffer from depression these days - worse when it’s in people so young. " There will be a percentage that don’t but we seem to have forgotten the difference with true depression and normal reactions to shitty circumstances. | |||
"Nothing has ever been proven to be more effective than fresh air and exercise Could you send me the link to the professional study that says that That’s the whole point. There aren’t many ‘studies’ on this at all. There is a severe lack of evidence on every part of it. So, subjecting kids to unlicensed and untrialled medication is your answer?? Certainly you’ll struggle to find a ‘study’ that proves fresh air and exercise harmful. " Oh but there are! Studies using the Hamilton 52 point scale for depression found, on average, exercise and diet moved me considerably further up the scale (which is good) than anti depressants. Now there's a huge standard deviation attached to that. But what happened was that certain people didn't like that message so they said the scale was wrong! | |||
"Nothing has ever been proven to be more effective than fresh air and exercise Could you send me the link to the professional study that says that That’s the whole point. There aren’t many ‘studies’ on this at all. There is a severe lack of evidence on every part of it. So, subjecting kids to unlicensed and untrialled medication is your answer?? Certainly you’ll struggle to find a ‘study’ that proves fresh air and exercise harmful. " Finding the money to put all these children on outdoor activity treatments and counselling will be the brick wall. Also, if they don't agree to counselling, they can't be made to go. | |||
"Nothing has ever been proven to be more effective than fresh air and exercise " Is that just teenagers or adults too ? | |||
"Nothing has ever been proven to be more effective than fresh air and exercise Could you send me the link to the professional study that says that That’s the whole point. There aren’t many ‘studies’ on this at all. There is a severe lack of evidence on every part of it. So, subjecting kids to unlicensed and untrialled medication is your answer?? Certainly you’ll struggle to find a ‘study’ that proves fresh air and exercise harmful. Oh but there are! Studies using the Hamilton 52 point scale for depression found, on average, exercise and diet moved me considerably further up the scale (which is good) than anti depressants. Now there's a huge standard deviation attached to that. But what happened was that certain people didn't like that message so they said the scale was wrong! " Congratulations on finding something that works for you. I wish the experiences of more people could be used to make compile more evidence. | |||
"Nothing has ever been proven to be more effective than fresh air and exercise " i totally agree, plus a little physical exersize. I can tell you all that the drugs dont work as i have been on a few different types over the last 26 years. Stopped taking them a couple of years back and started feeling better not long after. I think a big problem is bad food like sugary sweets and fast food. Not to mention the increase in unnessary vaccines that are full of mercury and aliminium plus other stuff. But it doesnt help that we are all being poisoned by fluoride in water and toothpaste on a daily basis. Not to mention the shit the government are now spraying in the air. Oh and the gmo food! We dont have a chance really when you look at it. Im just hoping jesus returns very soon to save us! | |||
"Nothing has ever been proven to be more effective than fresh air and exercise Could you send me the link to the professional study that says that That’s the whole point. There aren’t many ‘studies’ on this at all. There is a severe lack of evidence on every part of it. So, subjecting kids to unlicensed and untrialled medication is your answer?? Certainly you’ll struggle to find a ‘study’ that proves fresh air and exercise harmful. Finding the money to put all these children on outdoor activity treatments and counselling will be the brick wall. Also, if they don't agree to counselling, they can't be made to go." They don’t need outdoor activity treatments. Just to get outside and get some exercise, and maybe even enjoy the experience. Yes, people need to be motivated and I’ve never said it should be the only treatment. Yet it is something that can be done instantly, for free and has no side effects. People can’t be made to exercise or take part in psychological therapies, but they can’t be made to take medication either (unless they’ve been sectioned). In all but the severest cases, insight should remain and the sufferer should want to take ownship of the problem and responsibility for sorting things out. I acknowledge that this may not be the case in the severest and fantastically rare cases of dibilitating severe depression, but in all others the actions I’ve suggested are simple, risk free and would prove a willingness to get better. The thread is about kids, I’m not saying that lack of exercise or fresh air cause depression, and I’ve also said that it’s probably over diagnosed, but at a time when at least as many threads criticise young people for not taking exercise, staying in their rooms and playing consoles it seems foolish to suggest not giving non medication efforts a go. | |||
"Nothing has ever been proven to be more effective than fresh air and exercise Nothing has ever been proven to be more untrue. For many years I was married to someone who worked as a part of Social Services' Community Mental Health team. Part of the ongoing advice that was regularly given was to get better regular sleep patterns, eat regular and healthy meals, take some exercise, even if that was only walking, and to get out into the fresh air, especially parks or areas with trees. Of course, none of that is a magic pill that will instantly cure depression and other mental illness. Often, however, it is about managing it and lessening it's debilitating hold on the individual. So, from observation of the work of the Community Mental Health team, I would say that to dismiss "fresh air and exercise" is incorrect, although it is an abbreviated version of advice given." No one is dismissing it. All of the post above agree about the benefits of a healthier lifestyle on mental well-being. But it is not a better solution that medication for those that need medication, which is what some people are advocating | |||
"Nothing has ever been proven to be more effective than fresh air and exercise Could you send me the link to the professional study that says that That’s the whole point. There aren’t many ‘studies’ on this at all. There is a severe lack of evidence on every part of it. So, subjecting kids to unlicensed and untrialled medication is your answer?? Certainly you’ll struggle to find a ‘study’ that proves fresh air and exercise harmful. Finding the money to put all these children on outdoor activity treatments and counselling will be the brick wall. Also, if they don't agree to counselling, they can't be made to go. They don’t need outdoor activity treatments. Just to get outside and get some exercise, and maybe even enjoy the experience. Yes, people need to be motivated and I’ve never said it should be the only treatment. Yet it is something that can be done instantly, for free and has no side effects. People can’t be made to exercise or take part in psychological therapies, but they can’t be made to take medication either (unless they’ve been sectioned). In all but the severest cases, insight should remain and the sufferer should want to take ownship of the problem and responsibility for sorting things out. I acknowledge that this may not be the case in the severest and fantastically rare cases of dibilitating severe depression, but in all others the actions I’ve suggested are simple, risk free and would prove a willingness to get better. The thread is about kids, I’m not saying that lack of exercise or fresh air cause depression, and I’ve also said that it’s probably over diagnosed, but at a time when at least as many threads criticise young people for not taking exercise, staying in their rooms and playing consoles it seems foolish to suggest not giving non medication efforts a go. " I’m so glad you’re not my doctor!! You seem to have an astonishing lack of understanding around how anxiety & depression affect people. The actions you have suggested are great for someone who is on the way to improving. But I’ve had days before now where getting out of bed & having a shower has been a massive achievement & has left me totally drained. It’s not that I don’t want to get my condition under control, so no lack of willingness; it’s that I physically & mentally do not have the capacity to do it. And I certainly do not have a secvere or fantastically rare case of anxiety & depression. And yes, as you feel the need to keep reiterating it, we know the thread started out discussing drugs for teenage depression; however threads tend to be reactive & go off in many directions, depending on the people involved. Unpredictable & not easy to control. A bit like mental health. | |||
"The brain gives out the orders to the body; if the command centre is dysfunctional it can't heal itself. " It's true. In theory, once broken, the mind should never recover. Luckily however materialist theories of reality are mistaken. Amazing healing beyond comprehension or logic is still possible. That which is broken and lost can, inexplicably, mend itself and become found again. Don't ask me how? No one yet knows. Sometimes the process of healing, as it is for birthing, is all about getting out of the way of yourself and letting something else through you | |||
