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Unjust War...
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I’m not judging anyone... this is just to get people’s opinions.. mainly people in the army...
If you’re government ordered you to invade a country or fight a war where you thought it was unjust.. I.e a political reason you didn’t agree with... would you as a soldier follow the order or would you protest and face prison under moral grounds..
Everyone’s opinion welcome. |
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"I’m not judging anyone... this is just to get people’s opinions.. mainly people in the army...
If you’re government ordered you to invade a country or fight a war where you thought it was unjust.. I.e a political reason you didn’t agree with... would you as a soldier follow the order or would you protest and face prison under moral grounds..
Everyone’s opinion welcome. "
If you sign up to serve in the forces you do so on the assumption that you'll be called up to fight a war that is in no way relevant to you or anyone you know. Fighting wars in places a long way away which don't improve the way of life of anybody back home. So of course the majority of people would go, otherwise they shouldn't have signed up in the first place. |
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By *ynecplCouple
over a year ago
Newcastle upon Tyne |
The whole system of the Army is built on discipline therefore you do what you are told to. You might not always agree with it and as you go up the ranks you can express your concerns and displeasure but at the end of the day it a job that you signed up to do. If you don't like it then you can always leave, preferably before they ask you do something you disagree with. |
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If I was in the army I would assume my moral judgment/ethics and political opinion would have been removed during my training, Personal I wouldn't voluntary join up to the armed forces as I don't trust or believe our government or anyone else's that they have our best interests in mind |
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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago
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As commented above, you have joined to serve so don't pick and choose. However, if it is something truly against humanity, then refuse. You could say so many atrocities are only soldiers doing their duty. There is an ethical threshold of responsibility. |
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"If I was in the army I would assume my moral judgment/ethics and political opinion would have been removed during my training
Well now, thanks....  "
Sorry I meant to add if I went along with a in my opinion a unjust invasion/war with another country my own thoughts on the subject must of been taken away as I wouldn't do just because I was told to do so |
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"If I was in the army I would assume my moral judgment/ethics and political opinion would have been removed during my training, Personal I wouldn't voluntary join up to the armed forces as I don't trust or believe our government or anyone else's that they have our best interests in mind "
Your assumption would be wrong..
the obligation to both abide by and adhere to International laws and conventions is one that is impressed upon trainees, least it was when i did my basic in 76..
the emphasis is upon the boots on the ground to think for themselves as well as to act when ordered..
does it go wrong sometimes, yes of course it does and have there been occasions when those culpable have escaped sanction then sadly yes again..
but the majority of people who serve essentially the wishes of the government do so professionally within the law..
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So from the above comments most of you believe German soldiers were obliged to push families into gas ovens at gunpoint? After all, orders is orders.
Personally, I think history, humanity and morality would have better served if they'd have turned their guns on the arseholes giving the orders.
But that's just me. |
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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago
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'Under a government which imprisons any unjustly, the true place for a just man is also a prison.'
-Henry David Thoreau-
I am not in the army but even if I was, I simply wouldn't. My principles would come first. I need to be able to look at myself in the mirror, instead of going to kill people I have never heard of, or be killed for the interest of my gouvernment. Politics who are so happy to declare war to other country should either serve or send their children...
If my country was invaded that would be another story.
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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago
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"So from the above comments most of you believe German soldiers were obliged to push families into gas ovens at gunpoint? After all, orders is orders.
Personally, I think history, humanity and morality would have better served if they'd have turned their guns on the arseholes giving the orders.
But that's just me."
 |
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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago
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"So from the above comments most of you believe German soldiers were obliged to push families into gas ovens at gunpoint? After all, orders is orders.
"
No but they did it under the threat of death to themselves or their families if they didn't follow orders.
I was in the forces for 12 years, I knew what I was getting into and did as I was ordered. The morality of it did not come into play. |
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You join the forces to fight for your county and queen and lay your life down for it ..if England got invaded I wounder how many of you would then stand up and fight for your freedom, I know I would.. |
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"If I was in the army I would assume my moral judgment/ethics and political opinion would have been removed during my training, Personal I wouldn't voluntary join up to the armed forces as I don't trust or believe our government or anyone else's that they have our best interests in mind
Your assumption would be wrong..
the obligation to both abide by and adhere to International laws and conventions is one that is impressed upon trainees, least it was when i did my basic in 76..
the emphasis is upon the boots on the ground to think for themselves as well as to act when ordered..
does it go wrong sometimes, yes of course it does and have there been occasions when those culpable have escaped sanction then sadly yes again..
but the majority of people who serve essentially the wishes of the government do so professionally within the law..
"
Good post. And yes, soldiers are obliged to observe international law and NOT mow down civilians and children on the orders of their superiors.
You have to worry with many posters above who clearly think soldiers are obliged to follow orders, even to the limit of atrocity.
It's as if all that nazi hunting and Nuremburg trials malarky was misjudged (it wasn't). |
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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago
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Unjust war was a topic we went over at uni in my freshers year I believe. The lecturer first asked who's a patriot and only 1 person from 20-25 put their hand up.
We then had to debate where the boundary of 'just' war is but most settled on defence rather than strategical offence. |
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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago
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"So from the above comments most of you believe German soldiers were obliged to push families into gas ovens at gunpoint? After all, orders is orders.
No but they did it under the threat of death to themselves or their families if they didn't follow orders.
I was in the forces for 12 years, I knew what I was getting into and did as I was ordered. The morality of it did not come into play."
Have you ever heard of Adorno and the authoritarian personality test ?
|
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"So from the above comments most of you believe German soldiers were obliged to push families into gas ovens at gunpoint? After all, orders is orders.
No but they did it under the threat of death to themselves or their families if they didn't follow orders.
I was in the forces for 12 years, I knew what I was getting into and did as I was ordered. The morality of it did not come into play."
And what would you have done if you were ordered to start shooting at a a group of unarmed civilians and children? |
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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago
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"So from the above comments most of you believe German soldiers were obliged to push families into gas ovens at gunpoint? After all, orders is orders.
No but they did it under the threat of death to themselves or their families if they didn't follow orders.
I was in the forces for 12 years, I knew what I was getting into and did as I was ordered. The morality of it did not come into play.
Have you ever heard of Adorno and the authoritarian personality test ?
"
Can't say I have. |
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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago
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"So from the above comments most of you believe German soldiers were obliged to push families into gas ovens at gunpoint? After all, orders is orders.
Personally, I think history, humanity and morality would have better served if they'd have turned their guns on the arseholes giving the orders.
But that's just me."
You only have to look at the Stanford Prison Experiment to see how weak and corruptible many human minds are!
I’d like to think I’d know that social and moral responsibility, if faced with the situation, and make the right choices. I’ve never been good with rules, anyway  |
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By *ynecplCouple
over a year ago
Newcastle upon Tyne |
"So from the above comments most of you believe German soldiers were obliged to push families into gas ovens at gunpoint? After all, orders is orders.
Personally, I think history, humanity and morality would have better served if they'd have turned their guns on the arseholes giving the orders.
But that's just me."
That wasn't what the OP asked he asked about invading a country or fighting a war which on an personal level we feel to be unjust not individual acts. We would all like to think we would refuse to do something as horric as what happened in the holocaust. |
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"So from the above comments most of you believe German soldiers were obliged to push families into gas ovens at gunpoint? After all, orders is orders.
No but they did it under the threat of death to themselves or their families if they didn't follow orders.
I was in the forces for 12 years, I knew what I was getting into and did as I was ordered. The morality of it did not come into play.
And what would you have done if you were ordered to start shooting at a a group of unarmed civilians and children?"
There is no such thing as blind following of orders regardless of what it is - people have been court martialled for following orders that contravened International Law, Rules of Engagement etc. |
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"So from the above comments most of you believe German soldiers were obliged to push families into gas ovens at gunpoint? After all, orders is orders.
Personally, I think history, humanity and morality would have better served if they'd have turned their guns on the arseholes giving the orders.
But that's just me."
Ideally yes they should have done but we know the reality was different sadly in the camps, some German civilians as well as other occupied civilians did risk their own and their families lives in protecting Jewish people during that time..
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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago
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Having served in the US Navy for 8yrs, I did so with the full knowledge and understanding of the moral implications of my actions. When you are in a completely voluntary armed forces (such as US and UK have) you have to accept responsibility for your own decisions. The orders, as long as they are lawful, are obeyed  |
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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago
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"So from the above comments most of you believe German soldiers were obliged to push families into gas ovens at gunpoint? After all, orders is orders.
No but they did it under the threat of death to themselves or their families if they didn't follow orders.
I was in the forces for 12 years, I knew what I was getting into and did as I was ordered. The morality of it did not come into play.
Have you ever heard of Adorno and the authoritarian personality test ?
Can't say I have."
You should take the test  |
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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago
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"So from the above comments most of you believe German soldiers were obliged to push families into gas ovens at gunpoint? After all, orders is orders.
No but they did it under the threat of death to themselves or their families if they didn't follow orders.
I was in the forces for 12 years, I knew what I was getting into and did as I was ordered. The morality of it did not come into play.
And what would you have done if you were ordered to start shooting at a a group of unarmed civilians and children?"
That isn't the question that's being asked but that scenario contravenes the rules of engagement so I would not have done it. |
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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago
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"So from the above comments most of you believe German soldiers were obliged to push families into gas ovens at gunpoint? After all, orders is orders.
No but they did it under the threat of death to themselves or their families if they didn't follow orders.
I was in the forces for 12 years, I knew what I was getting into and did as I was ordered. The morality of it did not come into play.
Have you ever heard of Adorno and the authoritarian personality test ?
Can't say I have.
You should take the test "
I will do an shall report back. |
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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago
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"So from the above comments most of you believe German soldiers were obliged to push families into gas ovens at gunpoint? After all, orders is orders.
No but they did it under the threat of death to themselves or their families if they didn't follow orders.
I was in the forces for 12 years, I knew what I was getting into and did as I was ordered. The morality of it did not come into play.
Have you ever heard of Adorno and the authoritarian personality test ?
Can't say I have.
You should take the test
I will do an shall report back."
I am pretty sure you'll get a high score |
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i'd fight for my freedom and everyone's right for freedom of speech, id fight for my family and friends and id fight for my country. id draw the line with fighting for oil or land. i want to live in a world where there is no fighting, no hate and nobody dies from war or starvation. peace love and rock n roll! |
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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago
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A more recent example is Bosnia where neighbours quickly turned on those of other religious faith in protest of a country wide decision, made by ballot.
Back to the OP question: I’d like to think this wouldn’t be me; that’d I’d protect those in need and uphold my countries decision. That the many factors that give me my beliefs and values would be malleable enough to see ideas instead and accept change. We are inbuilt with survival, and sometimes, that does kick the arse of morality. I hope not.
Who knows ?!? |
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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago
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"So from the above comments most of you believe German soldiers were obliged to push families into gas ovens at gunpoint? After all, orders is orders.
No but they did it under the threat of death to themselves or their families if they didn't follow orders.
I was in the forces for 12 years, I knew what I was getting into and did as I was ordered. The morality of it did not come into play.
Have you ever heard of Adorno and the authoritarian personality test ?
Can't say I have.
You should take the test
I will do an shall report back.
I am pretty sure you'll get a high score "
3.6 within normal limits apparently |
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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago
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"So from the above comments most of you believe German soldiers were obliged to push families into gas ovens at gunpoint? After all, orders is orders.
No but they did it under the threat of death to themselves or their families if they didn't follow orders.
I was in the forces for 12 years, I knew what I was getting into and did as I was ordered. The morality of it did not come into play.
Have you ever heard of Adorno and the authoritarian personality test ?
Can't say I have.
You should take the test
I will do an shall report back.
I am pretty sure you'll get a high score
3.6 within normal limits apparently "
Interesting, that contradicts your statement about obeying orders without taking into consideration the morality of those orders. |
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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago
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"So from the above comments most of you believe German soldiers were obliged to push families into gas ovens at gunpoint? After all, orders is orders.
No but they did it under the threat of death to themselves or their families if they didn't follow orders.
I was in the forces for 12 years, I knew what I was getting into and did as I was ordered. The morality of it did not come into play.
Have you ever heard of Adorno and the authoritarian personality test ?
Can't say I have.
You should take the test
I will do an shall report back.
I am pretty sure you'll get a high score
3.6 within normal limits apparently
Interesting, that contradicts your statement about obeying orders without taking into consideration the morality of those orders. "
It depends what orders you mean though. As I said about shooting unarmed civilians, I wouldn't as it contravenes the rules of engagement.
Being told I'm going to Oman for 6 months to maintain aircraft that will be carrying out bombing runs etc. no question I did it.
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"A more recent example is Bosnia where neighbours quickly turned on those of other religious faith in protest of a country wide decision, made by ballot.
Back to the OP question: I’d like to think this wouldn’t be me; that’d I’d protect those in need and uphold my countries decision. That the many factors that give me my beliefs and values would be malleable enough to see ideas instead and accept change. We are inbuilt with survival, and sometimes, that does kick the arse of morality. I hope not.
Who knows ?!? "
Very valid point on what happened in Bosnia, 'we' as a species in the right or wrong circumstances tend to become a bit tribal and rally together with 'our own' and when divisions, suspicions and mistrust are manipulated and exploited people become easy to mould..
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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago
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"So from the above comments most of you believe German soldiers were obliged to push families into gas ovens at gunpoint? After all, orders is orders.
No but they did it under the threat of death to themselves or their families if they didn't follow orders.
I was in the forces for 12 years, I knew what I was getting into and did as I was ordered. The morality of it did not come into play.
Have you ever heard of Adorno and the authoritarian personality test ?
Can't say I have.
You should take the test
I will do an shall report back.
I am pretty sure you'll get a high score
3.6 within normal limits apparently
Interesting, that contradicts your statement about obeying orders without taking into consideration the morality of those orders.
It depends what orders you mean though. As I said about shooting unarmed civilians, I wouldn't as it contravenes the rules of engagement.
Being told I'm going to Oman for 6 months to maintain aircraft that will be carrying out bombing runs etc. no question I did it.
"
It is not like no civilians have been killed by mistake.
If you receive an order to shoot at a target, because the said target is thought by intelligence to be a group of terrorist, would go there and check or just follow orders ? |
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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago
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"So from the above comments most of you believe German soldiers were obliged to push families into gas ovens at gunpoint? After all, orders is orders.
No but they did it under the threat of death to themselves or their families if they didn't follow orders.
I was in the forces for 12 years, I knew what I was getting into and did as I was ordered. The morality of it did not come into play.
Have you ever heard of Adorno and the authoritarian personality test ?
Can't say I have.
You should take the test
I will do an shall report back.
I am pretty sure you'll get a high score
3.6 within normal limits apparently
Interesting, that contradicts your statement about obeying orders without taking into consideration the morality of those orders.
It depends what orders you mean though. As I said about shooting unarmed civilians, I wouldn't as it contravenes the rules of engagement.
Being told I'm going to Oman for 6 months to maintain aircraft that will be carrying out bombing runs etc. no question I did it.
It is not like no civilians have been killed by mistake.
If you receive an order to shoot at a target, because the said target is thought by intelligence to be a group of terrorist, would go there and check or just follow orders ? "
Oh I know, I've no doubt my actions indirectly contributed to the death of innocent civilians either on purpose or accidently.
Your second point I'd shoot based on intelligence, if I could see they were unarmed civilians as in the first scenario I wouldn't as it contravenes the rules of engagement. |
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"So from the above comments most of you believe German soldiers were obliged to push families into gas ovens at gunpoint? After all, orders is orders.
Personally, I think history, humanity and morality would have better served if they'd have turned their guns on the arseholes giving the orders.
But that's just me."
No, some of the German soldiers enjoyed doing it. Judging by a soldier that was interviewed who worked doing just that. There was a documentary on Auschwitz, a guard was laughing as he described rifling the people belongings, who had just gone into the gas chamber. Saying what jewelry, boots and other stuff he took home. |
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fighting for you’re country is probably the biggest honour.. fighting a war for a government with an agenda is different...
I was aiming to say... if your going to fight a war with someone who does not threaten your country.. is it really honourable? Because if you’re going to attack someone who isn’t threatening you then you are like an assassin...
Just my opinion. |
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"fighting for you’re country is probably the biggest honour.. fighting a war for a government with an agenda is different...
I was aiming to say... if your going to fight a war with someone who does not threaten your country.. is it really honourable? Because if you’re going to attack someone who isn’t threatening you then you are like an assassin...
Just my opinion. "
Who's to say what is just? And when you say threatening you, are you talking directly or indirectly? And how far down the line? Often the most efficient strike is a preemptive one. |
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"If I was in the army I would assume my moral judgment/ethics and political opinion would have been removed during my training "
Ermm no it's nothing like that, you're trained to do a job and do it well, not brainwashed into being a robot.
To answer the OP, if you take the queens shilling then you go where you're told, otherwise don't join up. I don't rate my chances of survival very high if things go kinetic in eastern Europe in the current climate, but I'll still be going. |
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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago
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"I’m not judging anyone... this is just to get people’s opinions.. mainly people in the army...
If you’re government ordered you to invade a country or fight a war where you thought it was unjust.. I.e a political reason you didn’t agree with... would you as a soldier follow the order or would you protest and face prison under moral grounds..
Everyone’s opinion welcome.
If you sign up to serve in the forces you do so on the assumption that you'll be called up to fight a war that is in no way relevant to you or anyone you know. Fighting wars in places a long way away which don't improve the way of life of anybody back home. So of course the majority of people would go, otherwise they shouldn't have signed up in the first place. "
The trouble is most people who sign up have no idea about politics & have a very one-eyed version of history.
Personally I'd tell any kid to avoid it like the plague. |
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"fighting for you’re country is probably the biggest honour.. fighting a war for a government with an agenda is different...
I was aiming to say... if your going to fight a war with someone who does not threaten your country.. is it really honourable? Because if you’re going to attack someone who isn’t threatening you then you are like an assassin...
Just my opinion.
Who's to say what is just? And when you say threatening you, are you talking directly or indirectly? And how far down the line? Often the most efficient strike is a preemptive one. "
I could use the Iraq war as a very good example... did we find any weapons of mass destruction? |
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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago
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"fighting for you’re country is probably the biggest honour.. fighting a war for a government with an agenda is different...
I was aiming to say... if your going to fight a war with someone who does not threaten your country.. is it really honourable? Because if you’re going to attack someone who isn’t threatening you then you are like an assassin...
Just my opinion. "
.
What's wrong with assassination work?... It pays well and the hours are short |
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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago
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"So from the above comments most of you believe German soldiers were obliged to push families into gas ovens at gunpoint? After all, orders is orders.
Personally, I think history, humanity and morality would have better served if they'd have turned their guns on the arseholes giving the orders.
But that's just me.
You only have to look at the Stanford Prison Experiment to see how weak and corruptible many human minds are!
..."
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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago
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"fighting for you’re country is probably the biggest honour.. fighting a war for a government with an agenda is different...
I was aiming to say... if your going to fight a war with someone who does not threaten your country.. is it really honourable? Because if you’re going to attack someone who isn’t threatening you then you are like an assassin...
Just my opinion.
Who's to say what is just? And when you say threatening you, are you talking directly or indirectly? And how far down the line? Often the most efficient strike is a preemptive one. "
That really worked well in Iraq didn't it; No WMD's found, 500k innocent civilian lives lost (iinitially) & the creation of ISIS!! |
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" The trouble is most people who sign up have no idea about politics & have a very one-eyed version of history.
Personally I'd tell any kid to avoid it like the plague. "
Another wildly inaccurate generalisation. Nothing like the ‘thick squaddie’ stereotype. So few people who actually understand the Forces and instead base their knowledge on TV or film. |
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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago
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"I’m not judging anyone... this is just to get people’s opinions.. mainly people in the army...
If you’re government ordered you to invade a country or fight a war where you thought it was unjust.. I.e a political reason you didn’t agree with... would you as a soldier follow the order or would you protest and face prison under moral grounds..
Everyone’s opinion welcome.
If you sign up to serve in the forces you do so on the assumption that you'll be called up to fight a war that is in no way relevant to you or anyone you know. Fighting wars in places a long way away which don't improve the way of life of anybody back home. So of course the majority of people would go, otherwise they shouldn't have signed up in the first place.
The trouble is most people who sign up have no idea about politics & have a very one-eyed version of history.
Personally I'd tell any kid to avoid it like the plague. "
“Most people who sign up”? Really? Most?
I’m calling cod’s wallop on that enormously sweeping statement. “Most people” who I signed up with and served alongside were extremely well informed and self aware and knew precisely what commitment was being made. |
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By *ara JTV/TS
over a year ago
Bristol East |
I'm reading "The Silent Deep", which is about the closest thing to an authorised history of British nuclear submarines that exists.
Fascinating insight to the minds of the boat commander and crew, carrying the responsibility for launching weapons of mass destruction.
Some of the interviews are quite frank, and speculate how different crew would react in different ways if ever the order came to participate in the mass slaughter of civilians and the destruction of society.
They are trained to push the button. But the burden of knowing the consequences must be an enormous one.
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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago
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I joined the army in the 80s. Two tours of NI , Bosnia and Iraq. I did what i was ordered to do. As a private and a junior Nco you have very little information on the whys and wheres you just do the job you are paid to do. It got a little more complicated as i started getting a higher rank when i was in plt 2ic then Csm. You do as you are told and keep your head down. War is both to complicated and horrific to think about. You do it because somebody has to. Protect those who cannot protect themselves. I noted that people have mentioned Bosnia. If ever Hell was here on earth then it was there. That place still haunts my mind.
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"I joined the army in the 80s. Two tours of NI , Bosnia and Iraq. I did what i was ordered to do. As a private and a junior Nco you have very little information on the whys and wheres you just do the job you are paid to do. It got a little more complicated as i started getting a higher rank when i was in plt 2ic then Csm. You do as you are told and keep your head down. War is both to complicated and horrific to think about. You do it because somebody has to. Protect those who cannot protect themselves. I noted that people have mentioned Bosnia. If ever Hell was here on earth then it was there. That place still haunts my mind.
"
I was in Mostar late last year and it's still very much scarred by the fighting there. |
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By *ateniteCouple
over a year ago
Youghal |
"Forward, the Light Brigade!”
Was there a man dismay’d?
Not tho’ the soldier knew
Some one had blunder’d:
Theirs not to make reply,
Theirs not to reason why,
Theirs but to do and die:
Into the valley of Death
Rode the six hundred.
-Alfred Lord Tennyson-
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